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No bfr.

Cassandra Nova, handily.

Nova

I'm going to have to go with Thor. Unless Cassandra has some more impressive showings than she had in those few issues of New X-men, I don't see what she can do to Thor that he wouldn't be able to handle.

I mean, the gravimetric bubble container was only claimed to be strong enough to hold The Juggernaut, it was never shown to be that durable. And while impressive, I was always under the impression that Thor was a good bit stronger than Cain but Cain was more durable.

And beating Gladiator really isn't that huge a feat since he was dealing with:

A. Discovering he had been manipulated and that there was corruption in the Shi'ar Empire.

B. Cassandra psychology (not psionically, just with plain old words) dealt him a heavy blow by revealing to him the exact devastation going on in the Empire at that moment.

For a guy who's entire powerset relies on his self esteem, it's no surprise that he crumpled.

thor

Moondragon mind-raped Thor quite handily.

And Cassandra is leagues above Moondragon.

Originally posted by Glorificus
Moondragon mind-raped Thor quite handily.

And Cassandra is leagues above Moondragon.

Evidence being?

she handed chuck and phoenix force jean grey their asses in a TP confrontation

Nova is going to take this

Originally posted by 753
she handed chuck and phoenix force jean grey their asses in a TP confrontation

No Nova didn't.

She sucker punched Charles TPedly and that was just regular Jean Grey. She didn't start manifesting the Phoenix raptor until before the final confrontation between Nova in Charles' body and everyone and Mummudrai bodiless Nova pretty much cowered away from Jean when she started talking in black Phoenix text.

Then she got completely owned by Charles when she tried to touch every mutant mind on Earth to find Charles there.

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
No Nova didn't.

She sucker punched Charles TPedly and that was just regular Jean Grey. She didn't start manifesting the Phoenix raptor until before the final confrontation between Nova in Charles' body and everyone and Mummudrai bodiless Nova pretty much cowered away from Jean when she started talking in black Phoenix text.

Then she got completely owned by Charles when she tried to touch every mutant mind on Earth to find Charles there. sucker punched him? care to elaborate ? it was a fair fight. jean had already manifested telekinetic sensitivity - as early as fantomex's first appearence - and this had already been explicitly linked to the PF remanifesting in her body on panel.

Originally posted by 753
sucker punched him? care to elaborate ? it was a fair fight. jean had already manfested telekinetic sensitivity and this had already been explicitly linked to the PF remanifesting in her body on panel.

Charles wasn't aware of even the concept of Nova's existence until the first time he was in Cerebra and she dealt the first blow right then and there. He still wasn't aware of Cassandra's actual competency up until she reached Cerebra herself and used the moments before Emma snapped her body's neck to take over Charles and trap him in her body.

The next time they encounter each other was at the end of that arc and Charles soundly curbstomped her.

And no, when Jean first remanifested her Telekinesis it was explained as being part of the Secondary mutation event that was occuring to all mutants. We didn't know she was reconnecting with the Phoenix Force until the U-Men attacked the Institute under orders of John Sublime. That was when she first manifested the Phoenix Raptor and after Nova/Xavier had started its infiltration of the Shi'ar.

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
Charles wasn't aware of even the concept of Nova's existence until the first time he was in Cerebra and she dealt the first blow right then and there. He still wasn't aware of Cassandra's actual competency up until she reached Cerebra herself and used the moments before Emma snapped her body's neck to take over Charles and trap him in her body.

The next time they encounter each other was at the end of that arc and Charles soundly curbstomped her.

And no, when Jean first remanifested her Telekinesis it was explained as being part of the Secondary mutation event that was occuring to all mutants. We didn't know she was reconnecting with the Phoenix Force until the U-Men attacked the Institute under orders of John Sublime. That was when she first manifested the Phoenix Raptor and after Nova/Xavier had started its infiltration of the Shi'ar.

nova beat chuck and jean's mind attacks back when she first strolled through the mansion - the scene in which cyclops was locked in his black bug room - chcuck comments on her boobytrapping her mind.
when chuck destroyed her mind she was already completely off her game and didnt even see it coming until it was too late.

it was stated on panel that telekinetic sensistivity is one of the diagnostic signs of PF manifestation known by the shiar. it was in the scene in which she feels the cutlery with her tk in the fantomex issue of new x-men, if Im not mistaken.

Originally posted by 753
nova beat chuck and jean's mind attacks back when she first strolled through the mansion - the scene in which cyclops was locked in his black bug room - chcuck comments on her boobytrapping her mind.
when chuck destroyed her mind she was already completely off her game and didnt even see it coming until it was too late.

it was stated on panel that telekinetic sensistivity is one of the diagnostic signs of PF manifestation known by the shiar. it was in the scene in which she feels the cutlery with her tk in the fantomex issue of new x-men, if Im not mistaken.

And I'd say that Charles was himself off balance from Nova's earlier assaults but I guess we'll just agree to disagree here and say that both of them had curbstomp moments for each other.

I'll have to find and read the Fantomex issue, but I still assert that Jean wasn't really connected to the Force until after the U-men incident, especially when you look at her personality and behavior before and after the event.

Originally posted by 753
nova beat chuck and jean's mind attacks back when she first strolled through the mansion - the scene in which cyclops was locked in his black bug room - chcuck comments on her boobytrapping her mind.
when chuck destroyed her mind she was already completely off her game and didnt even see it coming until it was too late.

What issue did Charles curbstomp Nova in? Jean split his mind and put it in every mutant. She used the Phoenix Force to rip Nova from Charles body.

And you're right Jean was manifesting her Phoenix Potential at the beggining of Morrisons run.

They only way they could beat Cassandra was to trick her.

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
And I'd say that Charles was himself off balance from Nova's earlier assaults but I guess we'll just agree to disagree here and say that both of them had curbstomp moments for each other.

I'll have to find and read the Fantomex issue, but I still assert that Jean wasn't really connected to the Force until after the U-men incident, especially when you look at her personality and behavior before and after the event.

Umm actually Jean was losing her humanity before the U-Man event hence Scotts affair with Emma. The PF was the sudden explanation for her regaining her telekinesis which she lost during the switch with Psylocke.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
What issue did Charles curbstomp Nova in? Jean split his mind and put it in every mutant. She used the Phoenix Force to rip Nova from Charles body.

And you're right Jean was manifesting her Phoenix Potential at the beggining of Morrisons run.

They only way they could beat Cassandra was to trick her.

Well, you'd have to define trick. Jean scattered Xavier's consciousness across all of the remaining mutants because even with the nano-sentinels destroyed by Xorn, she still couldn't contain all of his mind.

Cassandra then plugged herself into Cerebra and got sucker punched/curbstomped by Xavier who was waiting for her.

And then Jean actually manifested the Phoenix Force and forcibly removed Cassandra.

Cassandra was already on the ropes and falling apart; the only real trick came from Emma who trapped her in that Imperial Guardsmen but it only really changed the situation from Charles and Phoenix Jean from killing Cassandra to simply re-educating her.





But she didn't actually show the Phoenix Raptor or even start worrying everyone until after the U-men assault. And I thought the affair didn't occur until around issue 136, which was a full 10 issues and some time in-universe after the whole Nova incident.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
What issue did Charles curbstomp Nova in? Jean split his mind and put it in every mutant. She used the Phoenix Force to rip Nova from Charles body.

And you're right Jean was manifesting her Phoenix Potential at the beggining of Morrisons run.

They only way they could beat Cassandra was to trick her.



Umm actually Jean was losing her humanity before the U-Man event hence Scotts affair with Emma. The PF was the sudden explanation for her regaining her telekinesis which she lost during the switch with Psylocke. correct, I remember they could only beat her by tactics and plot device, but my memory of the details is blurry. the final scene I'm remebering is chuck emerging from cerebra and shoving his fingers into the skull of a perplex Nova, ****ing up her mind.

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
Well, you'd have to define trick. Jean scattered Xavier's consciousness across all of the remaining mutants because even with the nano-sentinels destroyed by Xorn, she still couldn't contain all of his mind.

Cassandra then plugged herself into Cerebra and got sucker punched/curbstomped by Xavier who was waiting for her.

And then Jean actually manifested the Phoenix Force and forcibly removed Cassandra.

Cassandra was already on the ropes and falling apart; the only real trick came from Emma who trapped her in that Imperial Guardsmen but it only really changed the situation from Charles and Phoenix Jean from killing Cassandra to simply re-educating her.

Cassandra did not get sucker punched by Xavier. Xavier didn't do a thing to her. The Phoenix Force did.

"White Hot Claws" that's the PF not Charles.

Both Jean and Charles couldn't do jack shit to after they forced her out of the body, they didn't know about Emma's plot they were as shocked as Beast when when she offered up the body. The only way they could beat Nova was too trap her.




The affair started before that in the annual.

Jean and Scotts marriage was in New X-Men 116. Jean magically gets her TK back at the beginning of his run which was due to the Phoenix Force.

Jean makes out with Wolverine in 117 IRRC.

Originally posted by 753
correct, I remember they could only beat her by tactics and plot device, but my memory of the details is blurry. the final scene I'm remebering is chuck emerging from cerebra and shoving his fingers into the skull of a perplex, almost incoherent Nova, ****ing up her mind. was she back in her body or was she in the amoeba-like superguardian body? did she still have TP powers at that moment?

Issue 126, which I have open, goes like this:

- Cassandra plugs into Cerebra and gets sucker punched by Charles.

- Jean manifests the Phoenix Force and forcibly rips out Cassandra from Charles.

- Cassandra starts falling apart, talking in broken, incoherent sentences.

- Emma walks in, in diamond form, holding what appears to be Cassandra's body.

- Emma breaks a deal with Cassandra that she'd give her the body if Nova spared Emma and the Cuckoos.

- Cassandra inhabits the body only to find out it's a fake and find herself completely trapped and reduced even farther.

- Cassandra and her Mummudrai self open their eyes in a psychic class room being taught the alphabet by Charles and Jean.

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
Issue 126, which I have open, goes like this:

- Cassandra plugs into Cerebra and gets sucker punched by Charles.

- Jean manifests the Phoenix Force and forcibly rips out Cassandra from Charles.

- Cassandra starts falling apart, talking in broken, incoherent sentences.

- Emma walks in, in diamond form, holding what appears to be Cassandra's body.

- Emma breaks a deal with Cassandra that she'd give her the body if Nova spared Emma and the Cuckoos.

- Cassandra inhabits the body only to find out it's a fake and find herself completely trapped and reduced even farther.

- Cassandra and her Mummudrai self open their eyes in a psychic class room being taught the alphabet by Charles and Jean.

Earlier on you stated that Charles curbstomped her, when does that happen? Cause he doesn't.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Cassandra did not get sucker punched by Xavier. Xavier didn't do a thing to her. The Phoenix Force did.

"White Hot Claws" that's the PF not Charles.

Both Jean and Charles couldn't do jack shit to after they forced her out of the body, they didn't know about Emma's plot they were as shocked as Beast when when she offered up the body. The only way they could beat Nova was too trap her.

Which doesn't really rebuke anything I said.

And Emma had no idea that Charles and Jean had Cassandra on the ropes or any of that. She was just executing her plan, which she assumed would be the one to save the day. Emma's plot and Jean and Xavier's plot ran completely parallel with each other.






She kissed Wolverine in 117 once and there was no marriage in 116. That was the clean up of Genosha and then Cassandra escaping and supposedly being killed by Emma.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
"White Hot Claws" that's the PF not Charles.

didnt she say this when he shoves his fingers itno her skull/mind?

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
Issue 126, which I have open, goes like this:

- Cassandra plugs into Cerebra and gets sucker punched by Charles.

- Jean manifests the Phoenix Force and forcibly rips out Cassandra from Charles.

- Cassandra starts falling apart, talking in broken, incoherent sentences.

- Emma walks in, in diamond form, holding what appears to be Cassandra's body.

- Emma breaks a deal with Cassandra that she'd give her the body if Nova spared Emma and the Cuckoos.

- Cassandra inhabits the body only to find out it's a fake and find herself completely trapped and reduced even farther.

- Cassandra and her Mummudrai self open their eyes in a psychic class room being taught the alphabet by Charles and Jean.

this sounds about right

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Earlier on you stated that Charles curbstomped her, when does that happen? Cause he doesn't.

It seems that I may have misconstrued Cassandra's cry of pain, which I'll concede to having been Jean's work and not Charles'.

But the point still stands that they didn't need trickery to actually beat Cassandra, that Jean's sheer muscle would have been sufficient to kill her.

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
Which doesn't really rebuke anything I said.

You said Charles got curbstomped by Charles in the third Cerebra incident. She didn't.



The Cuckoos were there setting the children free from Cassandra's mind control. I'd find it hard to believe she wasn't monitoring the situation since the plan was devised by both the Cuckoos and Emma.




The end of 116 there's a scene with Scott and Jean discussing there marriage. It's a very important scene in Morrisons run.

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
It seems that I may have misconstrued Cassandra's cry of pain, which I'll concede to having been Jean's work and not Charles'.

But the point still stands that they didn't need trickery to actually beat Cassandra, that Jean's sheer muscle would have been sufficient to kill her.

Your point is moot. The PF is an entity in it's own league. It's sheer power makes Thor at his best look like an ant.

so its phoenix that makes her scream about the white hot claws? I alwasy figured it was charles. wasnt he shown reaching into her mind in that scene?

Originally posted by 753
so its phoenix that makes her scream about the white hot claws? I alwasy figured it was charles. wasnt he shown reaching into her mind in that scene?

Nope, Jean is talking and there's a Phoenix effect. Realistically speaking it was probably both Charles and Phoenix who pulled that off. But from the scene it seems like it was just the Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The Cuckoos were there setting the children free from Cassandra's mind control. I'd find it hard to believe she wasn't monitoring the situation since the plan was devised by both the Cuckoos and Emma.

Monitoring the situation =/= knowing what Jean and Xavier were planning. She spent the entire time they even devised the plan running her own plan or stuck in the psionic suppressor that the Imperial Guard put on her.

And the Cuckoos did set the children free, but it can be argued that Cassandra was more concentrated on the fact that Xorn was trying to force her out of Charles and that Beast had just basically electrocuted her.






The scene also mentions how they had already been married. So I'm just clarifying that the marriage didn't occur in issue 116.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Your point is moot. The PF is an entity in it's own league. It's sheer power makes Thor at his best look like an ant.

Not really. My point was that Cassandra didn't have to be tricked and thus that wasn't the only way she could be defeated. Jean was perfectly capable of muscling Cassandra out and down so Emma's plot really only changed the only answer from being to kill Nova to just re-teaching her as Charles would have preferred.

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
Monitoring the situation =/= knowing what Jean and Xavier were planning. She spent the entire time they even devised the plan running her own plan or stuck in the psionic suppressor that the Imperial Guard put on her.

And the Cuckoos did set the children free, but it can be argued that Cassandra was more concentrated on the fact that Xorn was trying to force her out of Charles and that Beast had just basically electrocuted her.

What do you think Emma was doing while the Cuckoos were setting people free? Emma was freed before this occured. And how do you think Emma knew Cassandra Nova was in the Cerebra room. She was psionically monitoring the situation. And why do you think she picked that time to make an appearance.




I'm talking about their marriage falling apart. The scene shows their marriage falling apart. Because of Scotts issues with Apocalypse and Jean losing her humanity. This is again touched on later when Scott tells Jean he's worried cause her powers are growing. This is when Jean is in the office designing a curriculum. And again Jean got her TK back, that was due to the Phoenix Force.



Your argument that Cassandra Nova is only slightly more powerful then Charles is moot.

The Phoenix Force outclasses him.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Your argument that Cassandra Nova is only slightly more powerful then Charles is moot.

The Phoenix Force outclasses him.

I think the fact that Phoenix Jean made it obvious that she outclassed doesn't make my point moot. Cassandra never showed any major superiority over Charles when it came to TP through her entire arc. She had 3 confrontations with him, one being a sucker punch, one being her amped on Cerebra and one being unquantifiable since we can't exactly determine if it was Phoenix Jean doing all the work or if Charles did anything.

All of the Nova vs. threads are talking like Cassandra Nova is the most powerful telepath ever to appear in comics when she barely ever showed herself to be more powerful than Charles, her twin.

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
I think the fact that Phoenix Jean made it obvious that she outclassed doesn't make my point moot. Cassandra never showed any major superiority over Charles when it came to TP through her entire arc. She had 3 confrontations with him, one being a sucker punch, one being her amped on Cerebra and one being unquantifiable since we can't exactly determine if it was Phoenix Jean doing all the work or if Charles did anything.

All of the Nova vs. threads are talking like Cassandra Nova is the most powerful telepath ever to appear in comics when she barely ever showed herself to be more powerful than Charles, her twin.

Em...you forgot when she broke out of the X-Mens prison and took down all the X-Men like novices. She knocked Charles on his ass without Cerebra and took down Jean manifesting Phoenix potential at the same time.

That was Jean manifesting her Phoenix Potential. The return of her TK was commented on by the Professor to be due tot he PF later on in the run.

Jean is a moron. Thor ftw.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Em...you forgot when she broke out of the X-Mens prison and took down all the X-Men like novices. She knocked Charles on his ass without Cerebra and took down Jean manifesting Phoenix potential at the same time.

That was Jean manifesting her Phoenix Potential. The return of her TK was commented on by the Professor to be due tot he PF later on in the run.

That wasn't her solely using Telepathy. I never have said in any of the threads that she wasn't a powerful foe, just that they were solely overhyping her telepathic talent.

And Jean wasn't manifesting any Phoenix potential. She didn't manifest the Phoenix Raptor until several issues after that confrontation.

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
That wasn't her solely using Telepathy. I never have said in any of the threads that she wasn't a powerful foe, just that they were solely overhyping her telepathic talent.

And Jean wasn't manifesting any Phoenix potential. She didn't manifest the Phoenix Raptor until several issues after that confrontation.

Charles and Jean couldn't shield the X-Men from Cassandra telepathic attacks let alone protect themselves. That in itself is and indicator that Cassandra is a far greater telepath then them.

Why does she have to manifest the raptor? Jeans Phoenix potential lies in her mutation that was the explanation in Morrisons run. Jean got her TK back and was called out by Scott on the amount of power she was lately exhibiting.

In the issue NXM 116, right after Cassie shatters the gravity bubble, Jean explicity states "I'm going around in her consciousness. It's like a big migraine... there's just a big hole where she should be".

Meanwhile, Xavier states "... I think I can close down her motor function from here".

So both Jean and Charles were trying to shut Cassandra's mind down using their telepathy.

Cassandra was not phased at all. She then proceeds to phases through Cyclop's optic blast and then mind rapes him with his black bug room. She also is mind raping Jean at that same time, as shown by Jean clutching her head in pain.

Jean is made legally retarded by Cassandra, as evident by her drooling and incoherent ramblings "SpFFlllffl", and "Fassr an fassr".... etc., while Xavier is still incapacitated.

So up to this point after escaping from the gravity bubble, the only power Cassandra has used was her phasing and shrugging off the mental attacks of two of the world's most powerful telepaths like she didn't even notice, and then dominate Jean without ANY apparent effort or hint of a strain with her telepathy.

Originally posted by Glorificus
In the issue NXM 116, right after Cassie shatters the gravity bubble, Jean explicity states "I'm going around in her consciousness. It's like a big migraine... there's just a big hole where she should be".

Meanwhile, Xavier states "... I think I can close down her motor function from here".

So both Jean and Charles were trying to shut Cassandra's mind down using their telepathy.

Cassandra was not phased at all. She then proceeds to phases through Cyclop's optic blast and then mind rapes him with his black bug room. She also is mind raping Jean at that same time, as shown by Jean clutching her head in pain.

Jean is made legally retarded by Cassandra, as evident by her drooling and incoherent ramblings "SpFFlllffl", and "Fassr an fassr".... etc., while Xavier is still incapacitated.

So up to this point after escaping from the gravity bubble, the only power Cassandra has used was her phasing and shrugging off the mental attacks of two of the world's most powerful telepaths like she didn't even notice, and then dominate Jean without ANY apparent effort or hint of a strain with her telepathy. Not to mention that she shut Jean down by creating a booby trap with her mind seemingly with ease and on the fly, demonstrating superior skill and power.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Jean is a moron. Thor ftw.


loloz Cassandra is too powerful for the wigged blond

Cassandra Nova.

Thor. He's never been bought down with TP has he and he has massive TP resists. Add in Mjolnir and I see him doing something exotic for the majority wins.

moondragon mindraped him, but nmore to the point, I cant see how his tp resistance is above jean grey's.

Originally posted by 753
moondragon mindraped him, but nmore to the point, I cant see how his tp resistance is above jean grey's.

Jean (even with the PF) is a joke compared to Thor. In terms of mental resistance, I'd still go with Thor. He's a God and his mind/soul/body don't function the same way a mortal mind/soul/body does. We saw Warlock fail to put him down with the Soul Gem. So CN will try but fail to do anything worthwhile to him. Meanwhile Thor can probably absorb or banish her or maybe even destroy her with something exotic from Mjolnir. She's a living being (even if she's just psions) and a soul suck may work.

Moondragod did influence him, and if I'm correct the Goddess influenced him too. He has some good feats, but I wouldn't put him above, say, Superman. Cassandra Nova in the other hand, is among the meanest tp users in all comicdom.

Originally posted by zopzop
Jean (even with the PF) is a joke compared to Thor. In terms of mental resistance, I'd still go with Thor. your mind is gone, son