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All characters are bloodlusted and CIS is off
How does this go?

This has already been done.

By the way, Thanos solos.

SS & Thanos dies in less than 1 sec.

team 1

Originally posted by carver9
By the way, Thanos solos.

care to explain why?

Cause Carver is Carver.

team 1

Originally posted by SasuOna
care to explain why?

Because Thanos is in a different tier and an Omniblast or simply destroying the area that the fight is taking place at should be enough.

Originally posted by carver9
Because Thanos is in a different tier and an Omniblast or simply destroying the area that the fight is taking place at should be enough.

You do know that won't work right. i believe Flash can fly now.

Originally posted by carver9
Because Thanos is in a different tier and an Omniblast or simply destroying the area that the fight is taking place at should be enough.
Tiers mean nothing its about whether you can stand up to a character or not with your abilities.
So Flash and Zoom can avoid something like that easily

Originally posted by SasuOna
Tiers mean nothing its about whether you can stand up to a character or not with your abilities.
So Flash and Zoom can avoid something like that easily

I hate to agree with Carver but he is right... Thanos is in a different league, his durability is high enough and his combat reflexes are obviously fast enough to tag speedsters.

Now unless you are one of the people that clearly think no one below abstract can tag the flash/zoom then they will go down. I'd like to think he needs SS for this fight though, as he might get overwhelmed without him....



Wait disregard this entire post, obviously IMP 100000 biliijillion times to thanos face in the first yoctosecond because thats how the flashes roll on this board.

Nothing short of abstract beings will beat team 2. True story, bro.

Originally posted by mykke
Wait disregard this entire post, obviously IMP 100000 biliijillion times to thanos face in the first yoctosecond because thats how the flashes roll on this board.

yep. besides, even if he tried an omniblast because the flash's let him get off some form of attack just to get their kicks, flash could simply steal the speed of the blast--he's stolen the speed from energy in the past--so the blast wouldn't be a problem at all. then it's either a dodecatillion imps or straight speed steal from thanos and ss. i really see no way for the marvel guys to win

not only that, zoom timetravels to evade whatever attack team 1 can come up with, then he galaxy busts

Originally posted by leonidas
yep. besides, even if he tried an omniblast because the flash's let him get off some form of attack just to get their kicks, flash could simply steal the speed of the blast--he's stolen the speed from energy in the past--so the blast wouldn't be a problem at all. then it's either a dodecatillion imps or straight speed steal from thanos and ss. i really see no way for the marvel guys to win



thumbs up flash and zoom ftw, I vote that both get put in abstract tier so these matches can be marked with spite already

Team 1.

I didn't know Thanos was an abstract
I could have sworn he was getting worked over by a weak as hell Galactus. I mean even the Thing and Dr Strange can punk a weak Galactus but Thanos? nah he takes that beating.

Originally posted by SasuOna
I didn't know Thanos was an abstract
I could have sworn he was getting worked over by a weak as hell Galactus. I mean even the Thing and Dr Strange can punk a weak Galactus but Thanos? nah he takes that beating.

I don't know where to start...

Team 1

In the comics team 1. On KMC team 2. Mabe team 1 can take it on KMC with prep.

Originally posted by leonidas
yep. besides, even if he tried an omniblast because the flash's let him get off some form of attack just to get their kicks, flash could simply steal the speed of the blast--he's stolen the speed from energy in the past--so the blast wouldn't be a problem at all. then it's either a dodecatillion imps or straight speed steal from thanos and ss. i really see no way for the marvel guys to win

So who should Flash and Zoom lose to? The Hulk? They obviously can't hang with anybody else. The joking is funny and all that, but the overall resentment in every thread is old. Not even you in particular but just in general. It doesn't add anything to the thread.

By the way this has already been done.

Originally posted by SasuOna
I didn't know Thanos was an abstract
I could have sworn he was getting worked over by a weak as hell Galactus. I mean even the Thing and Dr Strange can punk a weak Galactus but Thanos? nah he takes that beating.

That is what we call pis in comics good sir.

It's like me saying Pre-Crisis Superman weak, because he got knock out by a electric fence.

Or Darkseid after losing his Omega Effects couldn't even walk down some steps. It's like that ****ing moron of an author completely forgot that Darkseid wasn't ****ing born with the Omega Effect, but he stole them form his brother.

I swear when that shit was published, Kirby god rest his soul, died a second time.

Originally posted by SasuOna
I didn't know Thanos was an abstract
I could have sworn he was getting worked over by a weak as hell Galactus. I mean even the Thing and Dr Strange can punk a weak Galactus but Thanos? nah he takes that beating.

Because thing and strange punking galactus doesn't = pis no matter how you slice it my bad.

He doesn't have to be... Thanos is above flash and zoom, deal with it.

Originally posted by mykke
Because thing and strange punking galactus doesn't = pis no matter how you slice it my bad.

He doesn't have to be... Thanos is above flash and zoom, deal with it.

He's above Drax too, but Drax still killed him with that disintegration thingy.

Wally has some speed force tricks that are at least as effective, like the speed force dump and being capable of dissipating someones molecules (Thanos would come back from it, but it should count as a "win"..), or draining all his kinetic energy making him a statue.

I think Thanos and Surfer win, though.

Originally posted by cdtm
He's above Drax too, but Drax still killed him with that disintegration thingy.

Wally has some speed force tricks that are at least as effective, like the speed force dump and being capable of dissipating someones molecules (Thanos would come back from it, but it should count as a "win"..), or draining all his kinetic energy making him a statue.

I think Thanos and Surfer win, though. You mean when Drax blew Thanos up with an anti-matter bomb?

Originally posted by Harbinger
You mean when Drax blew Thanos up with an anti-matter bomb?

Is that what it was? Sounds like a fair method of killing him, given his insane durability.

Some of Flash's speed tricks are sick, though. He destroyed Anti Monitors second armor, for example, which is impressive given all the attacks the armor sustained in COIE and stayed together.

Drax owned Thanos because he's built to kill him.

It would be like saying that Sups has lost countless of time to a stupid rock.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Drax owned Thanos because he's built to kill him.

It would be like saying that Sups has lost countless of time to a stupid rock. So you get his point. Whether Flash and Zoom are above Thanos is irrelevant as they are built to kill him.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Drax owned Thanos because he's built to kill him.

It would be like saying that Sups has lost countless of time to a stupid rock.

In Annihilation, sure, but anyone could have killed him with the anti matter bomb.

Originally posted by cdtm
In Annihilation, sure, but anyone could have killed him with the anti matter bomb. there are ways for flasha nd zoom to win, but they definitely lose a majority

Originally posted by 753
there are ways for flasha nd zoom to win, but they definitely lose a majority CIS on in this situation I agree. Turn it off and shit gets broken.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So who should Flash and Zoom lose to? The Hulk? They obviously can't hang with anybody else. The joking is funny and all that, but the overall resentment in every thread is old. Not even you in particular but just in general. It doesn't add anything to the thread.

By the way this has already been done.

it's what happens when unsupported nonsense is perpetuated over and over again.

and in a comic, i could certainly see flash losing to hulk, no doubt about it. don't matter in the forum, except it probably should. you won't see it that way though, and most others won't either.

as for who he should and would lose to? he would certainly lose to ss AND thanos, both of whom would likely have answers for their speed. but of course, everyone screams for on-panel proof. but, as i've said a million times--there IS no proof for marvel characters because there IS no one like flash. however, if there WERE, ss would STILL be well above him, imo, let alone thanos.

this post will simply lead to further rebuttals and even more nonsense though, so it's easier just to say flash wins everytime against everyone and be done with it. what i posted was tongue-in-cheek and i don't believe he could do either things for a moment--however, there are many here who DO believe it. unfortunately, the flash idiocy has really hurt the character on the forum.

Originally posted by cdtm
Is that what it was? Sounds like a fair method of killing him, given his insane durability.

Some of Flash's speed tricks are sick, though. He destroyed Anti Monitors second armor, for example, which is impressive given all the attacks the armor sustained in COIE and stayed together. Two things about the bomb:

- Thanos wasn't at full strength when Drax attached the bomb to his chest (he'd been recently resurrected).

- The bomb didn't kill him, as it was in the Cancerverse and there is no concept of Death there.

Has next to nothing to do with the thread, but there you go.

Originally posted by Harbinger
Two things about the bomb:

- Thanos wasn't at full strength when Drax attached the bomb to his chest (he'd been recently resurrected).

- The bomb didn't kill him, as it was in the Cancerverse and there is no concept of Death there.

Has next to nothing to do with the thread, but there you go. the reason he didnt die was that he was brought back immune to death. how weakened he was is a matter of interpretation as he seemed recovered already and people opnly mention how strong he had become after initially fainting in the cancerverse

Not really a valid argument for this thread, but theoretically, since Flash has proven he could affect the speed of just about anything from characters, to planetary bodies, to forms of energy, shouldn't that give him an infinite supply of speed energy to draw off of..?

Like say, light waves. Just keep stealing speed off the light from the sun.

Theoretically SS should be able to do anything Flash can do.

Originally posted by Mindset
Theoretically SS should be able to do anything Flash can do. To an extent I believe this. but things movement related like if SS were to try and speedsteal I think Speed-force has better control and could drain him faster than he could absorb speed if he were to try and imitate speedsteal via power cosmic.

Originally posted by Mindset
Theoretically SS should be able to do anything Flash can do.

Theoretically Odin can do everything Galactus can do.

Originally posted by Mindset
Theoretically SS should be able to do anything Flash can do.
Except use the Speed Force...

Originally posted by Mindset
Theoretically SS should be able to do anything Flash can do.

Theoretically, Surfer should own Thanos.

He's should be a low level reality warper, given some of his higher end feats and the nature of his power set.

He was able to fight off reality manipulation then put everything back to normal once.. So I wouldn't put that out of his scope..

And in regards to Zoom's ability, that's also within Surfer's scope; as in being able to manipulate time and exist out of it but still able to interact within all time/main timeline.. This way everyone will be doing GAZILLION IMP PUNCH OF MULTIVERSAL MAGNITUDE.. This is an abstract level of fighting way outside of Thanos league, so he sits this one out..

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Except use the Speed Force...

What's the speed force when he can manipulate the matter itself, see both past and future, and travel into them too?

Here how it would goes: both would hurt Surfer and annoy Thanos. Thanos create a shield to protect himself and Surfer, and then mindrape both of them. Or blast them into oblivion. Or matter manipulate their asses: after all, he did, in the past transform Super-Skrull into a statue.

The end.

Problem is, given the nature of Zoom's powers, he's going to be able to act before Thanos and Norrin will. So will Flash. The issue is whether or not you think they will be able to endure the initial blitz long enough to counter.

FTR, I think Thanos would; if he gets shielding up, cancel Christmas because Zoom and Flash are both getting omni-blasted. But with CIS off here, team two will blitz and get the first shots in. This battle depends on how you rate the durability of team one (personally, I think Norrin's going to get KOed by a blitz).

Norrin isn't getting koed by a blitz and I honestly see him reacting to zoom. This is someone that has flown past galaxies in seconds seeing everything that was going on while passing. Who has Zoom and Flash taken out during an initial blitz that is on Surfers level?

Originally posted by Harbinger
Problem is, given the nature of Zoom's powers, he's going to be able to act before Thanos and Norrin will. So will Flash. The issue is whether or not you think they will be able to endure the initial blitz long enough to counter.

FTR, I think Thanos would; if he gets shielding up, cancel Christmas because Zoom and Flash are both getting omni-blasted. But with CIS off here, team two will blitz and get the first shots in. This battle depends on how you rate the durability of team one (personally, I think Norrin's going to get KOed by a blitz).

Zoom is less an issue for Surfer that Flash: Surfer can travel in time himself.

Originally posted by carver9
Norrin isn't getting koed by a blitz and I honestly see him reacting to zoom. This is someone that has flown past galaxies in seconds seeing everything that was going on while passing. Who has Zoom and Flash taken out during an initial blitz that is on Surfers level?

No Surfer hasn't flown past galaxies in seconds. He used wormholes to achieve that feat. That's like stepping into a stargate and coming out on the other end and claiming to have the same reflexes as one who ACTUALLY traveled the distance fair and square. And also, some will argue here that travel feats are not the same as battle feats. I (a human ) can hypothetically travel at the speed of light towards the sun while observing all the visible stars in space and still have a long time to avoid hitting the sun. It takes 8 minutes to reach the Sun. Even if I were traveling at 160 times the speed of light I would still have 3 whole seconds to avoid hitting the sun. Do I have ftl speed reflexes? No. So travel feats can't be equated 100% to battle feats.

Also flash himself have exceeded the speed of time and matched the ultimate limit, the speed force itself. Flash has a feat where he is traveling at least trillions of times faster than light. His feat showed he was fast enough to travel the length of 6 galaxies in less than a second.

The one he is ref. To He was going warp speed..

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Except use the Speed Force... Which is inferior to his powerset anyway...

Originally posted by SasuOna
Theoretically Odin can do everything Galactus can do. And not surprisingly, you completely missed the point.

Go sit in the corner.

Originally posted by h1a8
Flash has a feat where he is traveling at least trillions of times faster than light. His feat showed he was fast enough to travel the length of 6 galaxies in less than a second. I like how Flash's "greatest" speed feat is accompanied by the writer's clear description that he was traveling just under the speed of light...

Originally posted by h1a8
No Surfer hasn't flown past galaxies in seconds. He used wormholes to achieve that feat. That's like stepping into a stargate and coming out on the other end and claiming to have the same reflexes as one who ACTUALLY traveled the distance fair and square. And also, some will argue here that travel feats are not the same as battle feats. I (a human ) can hypothetically travel at the speed of light towards the sun while observing all the visible stars in space and still have a long time to avoid hitting the sun. It takes 8 minutes to reach the Sun. Even if I were traveling at 160 times the speed of light I would still have 3 whole seconds to avoid hitting the sun. Do I have ftl speed reflexes? No. So travel feats can't be equated 100% to battle feats.

Also flash himself have exceeded the speed of time and matched the ultimate limit, the speed force itself. Flash has a feat where he is traveling at least trillions of times faster than light. His feat showed he was fast enough to travel the length of 6 galaxies in less than a second. he enters hyperspace through his acceleration alone an stays there through speed, it doesnt involve opening a portal. he has also traveled through time with speed alone and in a lot of his long distance travel feats, he moves light years in seconds through normal space, at least no hyperspace is shown or implied

SS hits warp speed or to be accurate is creating a warp and travels through that.
He isn't accomplishing any of those things with his own speed I don't even think you can make the argument that he can react to anything while at that level of speed either.

SS travels at FTL using his own speed more often than not. To say he isnt accomplishing any of those things with his own speed is just willful ignorance.

Originally posted by SasuOna
SS hits warp speed or to be accurate is creating a warp and travels through that.
He isn't accomplishing any of those things with his own speed I don't even think you can make the argument that he can react to anything while at that level of speed either. when he does enter hyperspace its simply his speed that propels in into it, it's all done through his speed

Originally posted by h1a8
No Surfer hasn't flown past galaxies in seconds. He used wormholes to achieve that feat. That's like stepping into a stargate and coming out on the other end and claiming to have the same reflexes as one who ACTUALLY traveled the distance fair and square. And also, some will argue here that travel feats are not the same as battle feats. I (a human ) can hypothetically travel at the speed of light towards the sun while observing all the visible stars in space and still have a long time to avoid hitting the sun. It takes 8 minutes to reach the Sun. Even if I were traveling at 160 times the speed of light I would still have 3 whole seconds to avoid hitting the sun. Do I have ftl speed reflexes? No. So travel feats can't be equated 100% to battle feats.

Also flash himself have exceeded the speed of time and matched the ultimate limit, the speed force itself. Flash has a feat where he is traveling at least trillions of times faster than light. His feat showed he was fast enough to travel the length of 6 galaxies in less than a second.

I don't know what feat you are talking about regarding Surfer, I don't think you even know what feat you are talking about but Surfer was FLYING past Galaxies in seconds while perceiving eveything that was going on in his surroundings. Maybe someone would be nice to put the feat up for you because I'm not doing it since everyone else knows what I am talking about.

With CIS of, Surfer kills them.

Originally posted by carver9
I don't know what feat you are talking about regarding Surfer, I don't think you even know what feat you are talking about but Surfer was FLYING past Galaxies in seconds while perceiving eveything that was going on in his surroundings. Maybe someone would be nice to put the feat up for you because I'm not doing it since everyone else knows what I am talking about.

With CIS of, Surfer kills them.
This never happened
and CIS is off Thanos and Surfer still aren't winning

What never happened?

You mean this never happened..

Travels half a million light years in seconds
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/3076/silversurfervol3006us8.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/281/silversurfervol3007nn1.jpg

And Surfer land a galaxy busting IMP in there heads for the win.. ; )

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I like how Flash's "greatest" speed feat is accompanied by the writer's clear description that he was traveling just under the speed of light...
Boy do I love that feat. If you ever needed a case of people picking and choosing to suit their argument, this is it. We're given time, distance, people, and speed. Any one of these numbers could be the "incorrect" one, but guess which one the Flash fans pick?

Originally posted by Ambient
What never happened?

You mean this never happened..

Travels half a million light years in seconds
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/3076/silversurfervol3006us8.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/281/silversurfervol3007nn1.jpg

And Surfer land a galaxy busting IMP in there heads for the win.. ; ) good for him still has speed stolen...Originally posted by King Kandy
Boy do I love that feat. If you ever needed a case of people picking and choosing to suit their argument, this is it. We're given time, distance, people, and speed. Any one of these numbers could be the "incorrect" one, but guess which one the Flash fans pick? meh I just happen to think Flash if you take what is said about his abilities which is usually when he's doing them he happens to wind up being retardedly broken. Don't think I'm knocking other characters by comparison but someone who can literally turn moving things into not moving things energy included, can run through time and access a dimension that only one nonspeedster to my knowledge has accessed (gorflack), shown in Flash Rebirth to have something of a matter manip/generation capability. Additionally he completely smoked supes in that run as well a character who has done similar feats to surfers travel in terms of crossing stellar spans in seconds (surfer beats supes out there imo but still none to shabby to completely smoke someone like that).

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I like how Flash's "greatest" speed feat is accompanied by the writer's clear description that he was traveling just under the speed of light... I like it as well. It proves that sometimes they don't know shyte when it comes to science and math.

Originally posted by Ambient
What never happened?

You mean this never happened..

Travels half a million light years in seconds
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/3076/silversurfervol3006us8.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/281/silversurfervol3007nn1.jpg

And Surfer land a galaxy busting IMP in there heads for the win.. ; )

Yeah that's after much time has past to accelerate to that speed. He has never shown that type of speed from a standing start.

Originally posted by h1a8
I know what SS can do. I don't know that you do.

Originally posted by Mindset
I don't know that you do.

Well if I know 1 thing out of the countless things he can do then my statement is correct. I didn't claim to know everything he can do. But I would love to know some other stuff that I don't know (if they exist).

Not enough bandwidth.

There's also the bridge building feat.

By my personal favorite is racing the black flash till the end of time. No real way to quantify such a feat, but it is pretty cool...

Originally posted by h1a8
But I would love to know some other stuff that I don't know (if they exist).

Originally posted by Mindset
Not enough bandwidth.

http://forum.smartcanucks.ca/members/kool_105-albums-animated-gif-s-picture16345-eating-popcorn.gif

Originally posted by Mindset
Not enough bandwidth. Irrelevant. Bandwidth isn't the only medium in which to learn.

is it aspergers?

Originally posted by Uriel005
good for him still has speed stolen... meh I just happen to think Flash if you take what is said about his abilities which is usually when he's doing them he happens to wind up being retardedly broken. Don't think I'm knocking other characters by comparison but someone who can literally turn moving things into not moving things energy included, can run through time and access a dimension that only one nonspeedster to my knowledge has accessed (gorflack), shown in Flash Rebirth to have something of a matter manip/generation capability. Additionally he completely smoked supes in that run as well a character who has done similar feats to surfers travel in terms of crossing stellar spans in seconds (surfer beats supes out there imo but still none to shabby to completely smoke someone like that). That feat had him intending to make Flash rescue the people in that amount of time. Funny how people accuse people of something they do. Some may not like the feat, but the art and the statement is clear.

^ That he ran just under the speed of light? oic

Originally posted by King Kandy
Boy do I love that feat. If you ever needed a case of people picking and choosing to suit their argument, this is it. We're given time, distance, people, and speed. Any one of these numbers could be the "incorrect" one, but guess which one the Flash fans pick?

The one that doesn't belong?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ That he ran just under the speed of light? oic and how long did it take him to save everyone?

This fight is over before Zoom and Flash even know it's started. Before they can even react, Surfer absorbs enough energy to create a new universe, but in this universe all the planets are inhabited by Shalla Bals; surfer flies from planet to planet, making love to all of the quadrillions of that universe's shalla bals, then finally returns and decapitates Zoom and Flash with his surfboard before they can even do anything. Thanos grins and pimp-slaps their severed heads.

Originally posted by SasuOna
and how long did it take him to save everyone?

It really makes no dif. regarding the extent of the feat since it states the speed he was going, which was no where a trillion X TL..

How did he do the feat then? If he ran any slower it would be impossible to do. Action>statements.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ That he ran just under the speed of light? oic Or that he saved everyone in that span of time and that there would be no way to do it otherwise. I remember that feat because I did the calc on it.

I do think it was a crazier feat though. So people can dismiss it as a high showing, but I don't think he was going under light speed. The feat wouldn't have been possible.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
How did he do the feat then? If he ran any slower it would be impossible to do. Action>statements.

Or that he saved everyone in that span of time and that there would be no way to do it otherwise. I remember that feat because I did the calc on it.

I do think it was a crazier feat though. So people can dismiss it as a high showing, but I don't think he was going under light speed. The feat wouldn't have been possible. inpossible in the real world only.

God said he was going under lightspeed on one of those little boxes.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
How did he do the feat then? If he ran any slower it would be impossible to do. Action > statement..
For all we know it took a few hours for that energy to build up for the explosion.. Conflicting statement = ??? action < definitive answer..

Bare in mind I've forgotten the exact sit.. On that feat so ..

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
How did he do the feat then? If he ran any slower it would be impossible to do. Action>statements.

Or that he saved everyone in that span of time and that there would be no way to do it otherwise. I remember that feat because I did the calc on it.

I do think it was a crazier feat though. So people can dismiss it as a high showing, but I don't think he was going under light speed. The feat wouldn't have been possible. I doubt you would apply that sort of logic equally across the board. Then again, let's test that out by trying one such variation:

(i) In one second, classic Wally saves 100 people from an explosion by setting them each down a mile away one at a time and saves the last person at the last possible microsecond... a feat that requires 1/1000th the speed of light...

... but the narration panel states he is running at near light speed the entire time, you're going to disregard the narration panel and say that he had to be only going 1/1000th the speed of light otherwise it's impossible?

Color me skeptical.

I'd go by the artwork and the fact that he saved the entire city at the same time. But even then it would be better to classify it (if you disagreed with it) as being something akin to Logan slicing Thanos with the power gem. I wouldn't say it was the other way around, though, just me.

Originally posted by 753
inpossible in the real world only.

God said he was going under lightspeed on one of those little boxes. Not at all, because if he was going under light speed or even at light speed he wouldn't have saved them. Unless the DC speed of light is 2.5 quintillion miles per second.

I'd rather classify it as a crazy feat myself. Either way he has better feats. As we've hashed.Originally posted by Ambient
For all we know it took a few hours for that energy to build up for the explosion.. Conflicting statement = ??? action < definitive answer..

Bare in mind I've forgotten the exact sit.. On that feat so .. Well the artwork and the narration said that was what he did. The nuke had hit the ground during the feat. Which is why I say that he didn't do it at the under lightspeed. Didn't the writer rule it as that.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I'd go by the artwork and the fact that he saved the entire city at the same time. But even then it would be better to classify it (if you disagreed with it) as being something akin to Logan slicing Thanos with the power gem. I wouldn't say it was the other way around, though, just me.

Not at all, because if he was going under light speed or even at light speed he wouldn't have saved them. Unless the DC speed of light is 2.5 quintillion miles per second.

I'd rather classify it as a crazy feat myself. Either way he has better feats. As we've hashed. Well the artwork and the narration said that was what he did. The nuke had hit the ground during the feat. Which is why I say that he didn't do it at the under lightspeed. Didn't the writer rule it as that. I can't even tell if you answered my (i) scenario. Make no mistake, I've got several more.

Anyway, others have pointed out that you're assuming that only the specifically quantified speed must have been incorrect. Why not the specifically quantified number of people involved? Or the specifically quantified timing of the explosion? Or the specifically quantified distance they were set down away from the explosion? Or the specifically quantified # of people Flash was actually carrying per trip?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I'd go by the artwork and the fact that he saved the entire city at the same time. But even then it would be better to classify it (if you disagreed with it) as being something akin to Logan slicing Thanos with the power gem. I wouldn't say it was the other way around, though, just me.

Not at all, because if he was going under light speed or even at light speed he wouldn't have saved them. Unless the DC speed of light is 2.5 quintillion miles per second.

I'd rather classify it as a crazy feat myself. Either way he has better feats. As we've hashed. Well the artwork and the narration said that was what he did. The nuke had hit the ground during the feat. Which is why I say that he didn't do it at the under lightspeed. Didn't the writer rule it as that. he would have and he did. it's right there on panel. accept it. it's not a crazy feat or an outlier at all. its a case of the author intending to do something and not srcrutinizing it like you have. he was going under lightspeed, DCU has no constsistent physical laws, the writers dont give a **** and neither we should we frankly.

It's right there on panel that he saved that amount of people in that amount of time, not more not less. Actions>sttaements. The writer intended to make him save the city and he did.

But a debate has to have some consistency. If there is no consistency then the speed of light is 2.5 quntillion miles per second. I was saying it would make sense if you thought it was a high showing (he's had crazier), but saying it isn't a feat just because you prefer the other is another thing entirely. If you think it is an absurd feat that's fine. I however believe in actions>words.

Besides the number was waaaaaaaaaaay off. It was obvious. It wasn't like it was off just somewhat or even 2x. 13 trillion times.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I can't even tell if you answered my (i) scenario. Make no mistake, I've got several more.

Anyway, others have pointed out that you're assuming that only the specifically quantified speed must have been incorrect. Why not the specifically quantified number of people involved? Or the specifically quantified timing of the explosion? Or the specifically quantified distance they were set down away from the explosion? Or the specifically quantified # of people Flash was actually carrying per trip? Well the illustration and the evidence leans to the fact that the city was saved. Flash carrying one or two people per trip is reasonable for his power. The art had the explosion taking place. So the evidence leans towards that IMO.

Or... we could say lightspeed is 2.5 quintillion miles per second.

Or we could say he was going under lightspeed.

Originally posted by Mindset
Or we could say he was going under lightspeed. At 2.5 quintillion miles per second.

No, at 150mph.

Come at me.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
It's right there on panel that he saved that amount of people in that amount of time, not more not less. which is fine really. it's just that he did it under lightspeed lol no

that's right, the writer inteded him to save the city under lightspeed and that is exactly what he did.
you are the one that prefers an absurd interpretation of events that is explicitly denied on panel. he was moving under lightspeed, how much clearer can it get?
word of the author on panel> fanmade nonsensical mathematical extrapolation produced for forum debates
your point?

nothing supports the idea that any of the variables involved in the feat are truer than the others, I remember having this exact argument with you months ago.

the caption gives the distance between the island and the beach - why is this to be taken as true?

the caption gives the number of people saved - why is this to be taken as true?

the caption gives the number of people carried per trip - why is this to be taken as true?

the caption gives the the lapse of time - why is this to be taken as true?

the caption gives the speed - why is this to be taken as false like you do?
or we could accept narration and get on with our lives

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well the illustration and the evidence leans to the fact that the city was saved. Flash carrying one or two people per trip is reasonable for his power. The art had the explosion taking place. So the evidence leans towards that IMO. By that same token, the illustration of Flash's speed doesn't look anything like I would imagine someone going 13 trillion times light speed. At all.

One (or several) of the quantifications and their accompanying illustrations has to be incorrect. They can't all be correct.

It says he was going light speed and he looks like he was going light speed. That's what you choose to dismiss. I'll choose to dismiss the population stated and how many people it looked like were saved.

In the end, I don't believe my choice is any more arbitrary than your's. And should that be the case, the feat is, by its nature, both questionable and circumstantial. So forgive me if I find citations to this feat (taken to their utterly highest possible limit) as anything else other than dubious.

Of course, that's assuming honesty on all sides, all things considered equal. Had my scenario questions been entertained (and they haven't in the slightest), I might have started chipping away at assumptions of credibility in the first place.

Thanos blitz both Flash and Zoom.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
By that same token, the illustration of Flash's speed doesn't look anything like I would imagine someone going 13 trillion times light speed. At all.

One (or several) of the quantifications and their accompanying illustrations has to be incorrect. They can't all be correct.

It says he was going light speed and he looks like he was going light speed. That's what you choose to dismiss. I'll choose to dismiss the population stated and how many people it looked like were saved.

In the end, I don't believe my choice is any more arbitrary than your's. And should that be the case, the feat is, by its nature, both questionable and circumstantial. So forgive me if I find citations to this feat (taken to their utterly highest possible limit) as anything else other than dubious.

Of course, that's assuming honesty on all sides, all things considered equal. Had my scenario questions been entertained (and they haven't in the slightest), I might have started chipping away at assumptions of credibility in the first place. Well as I said, it would be ok to just disregard the feat or say it is "PIS" or something of the sort. Either way he has more powerful feats. But based on panel and feat vs "writer miscalc" I'll take the feats. People disregarding it because "the math is complex" is being over the top. If this were something simpler like Superman holding two thugs and saying he was holding one, this wouldn't be an issue.

Originally posted by 753
which is fine really. it's just that he did it under lightspeed lol no
Lol yes. He saved an entire city in that time. What gives you the authority over anybody else to choose what suits you and what doesn't? The only reason you don't like it is because you, like many others, weren't able to come up with the mathematics yourself to do it. Just because you can't comprehend something doesn't make it invalid. You have no other argument other than, "I don't like it, therefore it shouldn't count."

The fact that you can't comprehend math over a very basic level doesn't make anything invalid. No more than Superman tugging a planet and the narration saying that he only lifted 5 lbs would count. It just doesn't make sense. Common sense and logic would dictate. There have been many times in comics where the actions have gone over the statements and people take the action. So stop choosing what benefits you because you aren't able to do math over a certain level.

http://superdickery.com/images/stories/oneshot/1007supermathematics1iw.jpg

Who do we take in that instance since the numbers contradict the writer? I choose the numbers, and so would anybody who isn't that lazy and can count.

If I pick up a 50 lb dumbell and tell you I'm lifting 10 lbs, what would be more valid?

If Superman held up two criminals and the panel said he only held up one, you wouldn't accept what the panel said would you? This crap is annoying on the forum. Everytime something is more complex than what a reader wants to divulge in, it becomes invalid. "Science doesn't count" "This is a comic book". Yet it mattes when you want it to.

"Comics have no consistency."

If that is the case then light speed is 2.5 quintillion miles per second. Or you could say it is an extreme feat.

Originally posted by 753
that's right, the writer inteded him to save the city under lightspeed and that is exactly what he did.
you are the one that prefers an absurd interpretation of events that is explicitly denied on panel. he was moving under lightspeed, how much clearer can it get?
word of the author on panel> fanmade nonsensical mathematical extrapolation produced for forum debates
your point?

The writer intended on him saving the city in a short amount of time. As the nuke hit the ground which was on panel. Something that could not have happened.

It isn't an absurd interpretation, your mind is just incapable of comprehending the math. Let me help you. I used multiplication and division to come up with the result, try it sometime. He rescued those people in that time. Stop picking and choosing and then calling others out on it. Call it PIS if you want.

It is good that the word of the author on panel AND the artwork show him rescuing a city in a short amount of time while the nuke hit.

Originally posted by 753
nothing supports the idea that any of the variables involved in the feat are truer than the others, I remember having this exact argument with you months ago.

the caption gives the distance between the island and the beach - why is this to be taken as true?

the caption gives the number of people saved - why is this to be taken as true?

the caption gives the number of people carried per trip - why is this to be taken as true?

the caption gives the the lapse of time - why is this to be taken as true?

the caption gives the speed - why is this to be taken as false like you do?
or we could accept narration and get on with our lives

Why is the speed to be taken as true and all of the other evidence that made the feat to be taken as false? Because it is more convenient?

The caption gives the speed and distance traveled. Since the writer is god then in his world light speed= 2.5 quintillion miles per second.

It's obvious the writer made a miscalculation anyways.

Originally posted by Mindset
No, at 150mph.

Come at me. I'm going to tell Delph on you.

I don't know why this debate is still going, assuming there are logical, rational persons on both sides.

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_flashftl.jpg

We have the art depicting the nuclear bomb going off. We have it clearly depicting that none of its population had left the town, at that moment. We have the number of citizens in that town. We have the distance, at which they're carried by Flash.

At which point I ask you, considering there are half a million people - 532000 to be precise - transported after the bomb had gone off, 35 miles away from the town - these being facts - In what Universe is this not faster than light?

And that's where the debate ends.

It doesn't require calculations. Time is relevant only in judging how many times above lightspeed this feat is performed but fact of the matter is - only a very dumb person would think that this is below lightspeed, I'm afraid to say.

Funny enough the writer made sure to let us know how fast Flash was ACTUALLY traveling at.. guess what he wanted that to be.. Just below lightspeed. Writers don't have to be math and science majors in order to write comics. He wanted flash to be traveling at that speed.. period.. just because the math doesn't work out.. doesn't change how fast he was writing fast to be traveling. Only an idiot would discount very specific narration by the writer to express how fast he wanted flash to be traveling.

Do we need to have the same discussion in every single Flash thread?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
http://superdickery.com/images/stories/oneshot/1007supermathematics1iw.jpg

Who do we take in that instance since the numbers contradict the writer? I choose the numbers, and so would anybody who isn't that lazy and can count.

If I pick up a 50 lb dumbell and tell you I'm lifting 10 lbs, what would be more valid?

If Superman held up two criminals and the panel said he only held up one, you wouldn't accept what the panel said would you? This crap is annoying on the forum. Everytime something is more complex than what a reader wants to divulge in, it becomes invalid. "Science doesn't count" "This is a comic book". Yet it mattes when you want it to. On that same line of thought..

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_speedsoundgalaxies.jpg

Superman travelling millions of lightyears at the speed of sound? Interesting, right?

Maybe the other people are right, and the speed of sound in DC is at a few milions of times the speed of light in the real world; and the speed of light in DC is in the high end billions of times that from the real world.

That would be great.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Lol yes. He saved an entire city in that time. What gives you the authority over anybody else to choose what suits you and what doesn't? The only reason you don't like it is because you, like many others, weren't able to come up with the mathematics yourself to do it. Just because you can't comprehend something doesn't make it invalid. You have no other argument other than, "I don't like it, therefore it shouldn't count."
oh too bad, now you're throwing an e-tantrum to justify your fanboy cherrypicking and contradiction of author's clealry stated intentions with ad homine attacks on others' intellects. you've just sunk another level in the logic ladder, as the entirety of your post amounts to ad homine logical falacies

the math is too complex? dont make me laugh. your self-proclaimed "brilliance" resides in the fact that you bothered scrutinizing a comic feat on that level, which is superb display of geekiness and feetime (nothign wrong with either), but not of intelect. btw I eat statistical analysis comically more complex than your math on a daily basis.

the fact that you cant comprehend english over a very basic doesnt make it invalid

"herp stop accepting the author's stated intentions! derp only
I get to choose what happened in a storyline."

BTW the overhelming majority in this forum disagrees with you on this topic, I guess we're all too dumb to follow the amazing formulas you come up with, h1a82.

this is just... facepalm

SM made a math mistake, now prove that has any relevance to the topic. your dumbass couldn't even find a example in which it was the narrative - which actually SHOWS US THE AUTHOR'S INTENTIONS - that got the numbers wrong...

anyway, we go with author's clear as day intentions and descroption of what happens

real world fail

or you could accept that at best the feat is unusable, not because it's crazy powahfull!!!!1 but because we cant rely on an mathematic extrapolation that contradicts what the author wanted to portray, which is clear as day. the author never did the math, he was unaware of the real world regarding it and yes, this is comics, and we accept that it is not always consistant.

the idea that this feat be taken seriously as a 13 trillion the speed of light race when narration says it was under lightspeed is ludicrous

it did happen. it doesnt matter that it's physically or even logically impossible, because superheroes' worlds are inherently physically impossible and often logically contradictory.
yes, poor me and everyone else in the forum with our limited math comprehension, if we were all as smart you than we could herp math derp 13 trillion times the speed of light like you!!!!

you call into question the stated speed, but offer no evidence whatsoever for why the stated distance or time ellapsed were accurate. since you dont believe the narration, why should we accept the time and distance were correct?

oh it's all about action and numbers right? so what proves the island was that far away from the beach? what's there on those illustrations that proves it?

what proves flash rescued everyone in that millisecond or whatever it was? show me the proof in the images.

what proves there were those many people there? where are they all shown on panel? can we count them? I say the flash only saved 100 people how is that?

oh the irony
yes, it is obvious and that is why we cant use math extrapolations to represent that feat as something it isnt. they're not legitimate as they contradict author intention and narration. the feat is simply unusable as evidence of anything. it was a blunder, but it most definitely doesnt establish his speed at 13 trillion c

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
http://superdickery.com/images/stories/oneshot/1007supermathematics1iw.jpg

Who do we take in that instance since the numbers contradict the writer? I choose the numbers, and so would anybody who isn't that lazy and can count.

If I pick up a 50 lb dumbell and tell you I'm lifting 10 lbs, what would be more valid?
That scan looks more like a typo than anything else.

^ Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well as I said, it would be ok to just disregard the feat or say it is "PIS" or something of the sort. Either way he has more powerful feats. But based on panel and feat vs "writer miscalc" I'll take the feats. People disregarding it because "the math is complex" is being over the top. If this were something simpler like Superman holding two thugs and saying he was holding one, this wouldn't be an issue. We don't need PIS. That term is used too loosely enough as it is. This is not complex math either. On its face, when you think about it a little bit, something's clearly wrong. But there's no greater indication one way or another that it was the speed noted, the # of people noted, the distance noted, or the timing noted. Obviusly, at least one of those explicit quantifications is incorrect. But there's no reason it absolutely must be the speed quantification.

From the plain presentation of the comic to a casual reader, that's almost assuredly the wrong one to eliminate.

I get the impression that something like speed-stealing is treated as an abstract or absolute. It's the impression I get from Wolverine's adamantium claws: they can 'virtually cut through anything'.

If this is how speed-stealing is treated (ie, nothing can resist), then Flash and Zoom win.

Now if this is not the case, and overall power levels matter -- eg, Thanos' "conventional" energy deployment is just simply too strong for Flash and Zoom to affect -- then I see Team 1 taking this.

"Clealry" 753 is so smart. He proceeds to call me a dumbass while having the reading comprehension, counting ability, and spelling of a toddler.

Simply amazing.

Originally posted by 753
oh too bad, now you're throwing an e-tantrum to justify your fanboy cherrypicking and contradiction of author's clealry stated intentions with ad homine attacks on others' intellects. you've just sunk another level in the logic ladder, as the entirety of your post amounts to ad homine logical falacies



Cherry picking? Not at all. I made that a long time ago as a tongue in cheek post. Fanboy? Hardly. It's fanboys and antifanboys like you, who go into every thread throwing a ***** fest whenever something doesn't go your way? Please. Every Flash thread it's the same thing. And if you had the comprehension over a toddler you would know that I said that labeling it a PIS feat isn't a problem to me. It's just slow posters like you who can't argue or debate who try to regurgitate the same thing over and over again to sound right in order to have a point.

What logic do you have noob? Trying to pick one thing and choose another because you are too slow to comprehend it? I haven't sunk anywhere on this forum, I was posting way before you and smoking way more competent posters than you and you have no point, just a ***** fest and it isn't going to work on me. Those far better than you have fallen all the same.

You were the first person to try to throw something my way and now you want to cry when I throw it back at you? Nice try.

My "ad homine" logical "falacies' when you just made a long post insulting me and not proving much of anything. You're a sorry poster and you are getting owned like you always do, deal with it.

Originally posted by 753
the math is too complex? dont make me laugh. your self-proclaimed "brilliance" resides in the fact that you bothered scrutinizing a comic feat on that level, which is superb display of geekiness and freetime ( nothign wrong with either), but not of intelect. btw I eat statistical analysis comically more complex than your math on a daily basis.
It obviously is, as it is for most people on the forum as that was where the complaint came from. "Logic doesn't come into debates."

"Comics aren't supposed to have any consistency"

Wah wah wah.

For someone who has such "intellect" you spelled it wrong. Geeky and free time? (Two separate words, not one genius.) Hardly, you have nothing on me and I have my own company to run. You're on here far more than me posting. I only post here and then. Oh and the formula only took me about a minute to do. I guess for slow people like you it would take you longer though.

It is basic math IMO and a shame people throw it out because they don't want to understand it.
Originally posted by 753
the fact that you cant comprehend english over a very basic doesnt make it invalid

Yes I'm sure that with your great "intelect" can teach me how. I disagree with you, it doesn't show a lack of comprehension, unlike you kid.

Originally posted by 753
"herp stop accepting the author's stated intentions! derp only
I get to choose what happened in a storyline."
Then to deny others of it makes you a hypocrite. Which I brought up because people were saying that the other side was picking and choosing, it is either one way or not at all.



Originally posted by 753
BTW the overhelming majority in this forum disagrees with you on this topic, I guess we're all too dumb to follow the amazing formulas you come up with, h1a82.

Uhh... no they don't. We had this before and most agreed, and some disagreed in other threads, and then it split. It depends on who is posting on the thread.

Oh and I've been posting here waaaay before h1a8.

"Overhelming".

How smart you are.

Originally posted by 753
this is just... facepalm

Yes, it is a shame that you are so stupid.

Originally posted by 753
SM made a math mistake, now prove that has any relevance to the topic. your dumbass couldn't even find a example in which it was the narrative - which actually SHOWS US THE AUTHOR'S INTENTIONS - that got the numbers wrong...

anyway, we go with author's clear as day intentions and descroption of what happens

real world fail

Now you resort to insults because you have nothing but a weak crappy argument in the first place. You've done nothing but whine and spell like a three year old and you call me a "dumbass"? My "descroption" works just fine. Genius.

I love how hypocritical you are, just like your weak argument you brought up in the first place.

The writer made a miscalculation. Just like he did in the other example.

So if narration states that a whole solar system with many planets was destroyed.. but it only ACTUALLY showed one planet being destroyed in a big explosion... Do we say ooo he only destroyed a planet as we saw nothing else? No. Canon narration is cannon narration. The difference here, is one is SPECIFICALLY talking about speed and how fast he was traveling. It was said multiple times in fact. That is of greater value than extrapolating other facts involving the plot and feat and calculating what it should be. Yes it should be this.. the fact is though... that writers aren't math majors... Comics often times defies conventional science.. so why look that deep into a feat to come up with your OWN view on how fast he was traveling. The writer SAID he was traveling at below light speed TWICE. The art work even matched that speed description more than the 20000000 million times the speed of light. That is it, nothing more should be said on the matter.

Within the realm of comics, the word of the writer/narrator is absolutely incontrovertible. That said, unless you are saying that the very specific time/distance numerics the 'omniscient' narrator gave us were incorrect, then it's certainly not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be.

Again, it is an entirely subjective feat. Your opinion that Flash was moving < c is no more correct than someone else's opinion that he was moving > c. BOTH viewpoints can be supported by the on panel narration.

I understand the point you and others are making but it leaves out one KEY factor. The writer SPECIFICALLY mentions how fast HE WANTED flash to travel. He even did so twice. There is no controversy on how fast he wanted flash to be traveling. The other narration involves other circumstances around the feat and plot which NEED to be extrapolated on further in order to come up with a number on how fast he SHOULD'VE been traveling. Those are two distinct levels of proof. The best way I can put it is this way.. one is factual evidence lets call it DNA.. the other is circumstancial evidence. There really can't be any denying that. One is very clear on how fast the writer was wanting flash to travel for that feat. The other takes extrapolation and math to figure out. There is a clear cut difference in levels of proof. Granted, it still doesn't make it clear cut one way or the other. But to compare the two as the same level of evidence isn't correct imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
Within the realm of comics, the word of the writer/narrator is absolutely incontrovertible. That said, unless you are saying that the very specific time/distance numerics the 'omniscient' narrator gave us were incorrect, then it's certainly not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be. We cut out every numerical data specified by the author.

We have a town whose name is given - the town actually exists in the real world. We just judge by what is shown - the nuclear bomb explodes. After this takes place, the hundreds of thousands of people are transported to safety, unharmed. The distance they're transported to is clearly depicted as tens of miles - which is only logical, given that it's a nuclear warhead.

Is this succesion of events which Flash does not faster than light? I mean logically speaking, Galan. We just look. As in literally, basic understanding of what's taking place, without having to take out a calculator.

We ignore specifications about the time it takes to do the feat. Or the specified distance at which he takes them. Or the contradictory given speed.

How is this not a faster than lightspeed feat?

The narrator said "a breadth under Light speed" So we can take that as near enough Light Speed..

So either way its a feat at the very least just about Light Speed, possibly many many times the speed of Light. But he didnt just travel, or go from A to B..

He rescued so many people in a milisecond, and took them all a safe enough distance from a nuclear explosion. That requires thought, cordination, reflexes, movement, all at such an incredible speed that the world would seem frozen to him.

My point is, even if you take the feat to be at Light speed, it was seriously impressive. Lets see if there are instances of Surfer or Thanos, thinking, moving, maneuvoring and coordinating at such an incredible speed, instead of just travelling from A to B at said speed. And from there we can carry on the debate.

Originally posted by Galan007
My God, you can tell it's an FTL feat just by looking at those numbers. No math involved. FTL mushroom cloud formation too "just by looking at those numbers." sneer

Flash must have lent the explosion some superspeed to make his job harder. What a showoff. vin

No, silly. All those people had already materialized on the mountainside before they were hit by the bomb's powa *thx Flash*.

The mushroom cloud was just a gigantic firework after-show for them. biscuits

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So many of us agree, we just know arguing it is a pain. I do agree though. Just like if there were a feat of Superman "pulling the Earth" and it said he "pulled all 5lbs" of it. People would immediately say it was an error because the Earth surely weighs more than 5 lbs. But with this they don't want to, and the reason is because the math doesn't hit most readers until they look at it closely. So many would rather say "comics aren't about math". Comics aren't about math. Your example is more apt than you realize. The difference between 5 lbs and the weight of the Earth must be the millions upon millions. It is an "exponential" difference. And here, the difference is in the millions upon millions as well, another "exponential" difference.

Let's not pretend that this scene was especially catered to the "true fan" who isn't fooled by plain English and utilizes a shocking tolerance for high numbers to get to the nugget of gold hidden between the lines. If a comic wants to hit you over the head with the enormity of a feat, they'll clonk you over the head with it. It wasn't enough that Savage Hulk braced a mountain over his head, they had to plaster a number on the cover. Planet busting isn't relegated to a small corner panel, it's accorded full page or double page spreads.

Comics are about the exhausting overuse of exclamation points. They're not about the patient interpretation of coded fine print. And this isn't even an example of fine print. It's just a mistake. And it's completely counter-intuitive to choose to stretch out that mistake to its highest possible limit over simply shrugging your shoulders and accepting the simplest interpretation.

If anybody thinks 13 trillion times the speed of light was the true intention, fine. Just remember what you had to go through to get to that conclusion. I personally found it tortuous, convoluted and ultimately inane. Apparently, to some, that's supposed to be an indication that you're reading it correctly. Forgive my skepticism.

Originally posted by Galan007
No, silly. All those people had already materialized on the mountainside before they were hit by the bomb's powa *thx Flash*.

The mushroom cloud was just a gigantic firework after-show for them. biscuits Uh-huh. For the people that don't realize what I was pointing out by mentioning a "FTL mushroom cloud," let's examine it. Between the flash of the initial detonation and the formation of a mushroom cloud of dust, only .00001 microsecond had elapsed. We know this because some of the people hadn't even been saved by the second panel. Only by the third.

.00001 microsecond = .01 nanosecond = 1/100th of a nanosecond. Light travels 1 foot in 1 nanosecond.

So I'm supposed to believe that the dust particles forming the mushroom cloud traveled tens of thousands of feet into the sky and ballooned out -- when a beam of light itself would only have traveled 1/10th of an inch in that same time frame? You're telling me the dust traveled millions of times light speed?

Whatever, of course it did! The time cited couldn't possibly be wrong. Only the speed cited was wrong. No other number cited could possibly have been wrong either...

... just like how Chongjin, North Korea, reportedly has a population of 327,000 people (not 532,000) in a country notorious for exaggerating it's own development. But, whatever! The 532,000 population cited couldn't possibly be wrong either. Only the speed.

Because if I don't think the speed is wrong, somehow, I'm being ghey about it and just hatin... yeah.

crackers

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Uh-huh. For the people that don't realize what I was pointing out by mentioning a "FTL mushroom cloud," let's examine it. Between the flash of the initial detonation and the formation of a mushroom cloud of dust, only .00001 microsecond had elapsed. We know this because some of the people hadn't even been saved by the second panel. Only by the third.

.00001 microsecond = .01 nanosecond = 1/100th of a nanosecond. Light travels 1 foot in 1 nanosecond.

So I'm supposed to believe that the dust particles forming the mushroom cloud traveled tens of thousands of feet into the sky and ballooned out -- when a beam of light itself would only have traveled 1/10th of an inch in that same time frame? You're telling me the dust traveled millions of times light speed?

Whatever, of course it did! The time cited couldn't possibly be wrong. Only the speed cited was wrong. No other number cited could possibly have been wrong either...

... just like how Chongjin, North Korea, reportedly has a population of 327,000 people (not 532,000) in a country notorious for exaggerating it's own development. But, whatever! The 532,000 population cited couldn't possibly be wrong either. Only the speed.

Because if I don't think the speed is wrong, somehow, I'm being ghey about it and just hatin... yeah.

crackers I like you.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I can't even tell if you answered my (i) scenario. Make no mistake, I've got several more.

Anyway, others have pointed out that you're assuming that only the specifically quantified speed must have been incorrect. Why not the specifically quantified number of people involved? Or the specifically quantified timing of the explosion? Or the specifically quantified distance they were set down away from the explosion? Or the specifically quantified # of people Flash was actually carrying per trip?

It doesn't matter as Flash saved all those people BEFORE the radiation got to them. Radiation from a nuclear bomb moves at the speed of light. So who cares what numbers were wrong?

^ ... superheated air and radioactive fallout (irradiated dust) is what really kills people. Not radiation waves.

Even if you can't understand that... just think about Flash safely setting people down 35 miles away from the blast. Safely. 35 miles away.

They're safe. Only 35 miles away.

Whereas this "killer light speed radiation" would travel 186,000 miles/sec. Think about it.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Uh-huh. For the people that don't realize what I was pointing out by mentioning a "FTL mushroom cloud," let's examine it. Between the flash of the initial detonation and the formation of a mushroom cloud of dust, only .00001 microsecond had elapsed. We know this because some of the people hadn't even been saved by the second panel. Only by the third.

.00001 microsecond = .01 nanosecond = 1/100th of a nanosecond. Light travels 1 foot in 1 nanosecond.

So I'm supposed to believe that the dust particles forming the mushroom cloud traveled tens of thousands of feet into the sky and ballooned out -- when a beam of light itself would only have traveled 1/10th of an inch in that same time frame? You're telling me the dust traveled millions of times light speed?

Whatever, of course it did! The time cited couldn't possibly be wrong. Only the speed cited was wrong. No other number cited could possibly have been wrong either...

... just like how Chongjin, North Korea, reportedly has a population of 327,000 people (not 532,000) in a country notorious for exaggerating it's own development. But, whatever! The 532,000 population cited couldn't possibly be wrong either. Only the speed.

Because if I don't think the speed is wrong, somehow, I'm being ghey about it and just hatin... yeah.

crackers The problem is that both the writer and author didn't bother to do the calculations as they didn't seem important to them nor to the reader. I say the feat is valid as Flash was moving X trillions C. Both the art of the cloud and the speed are just mistakes by the artist and writer, nothing more. The distance, the time, and the number of people are all correct as they were given in the story. The calculation on the other hand wasn't given since the writer did not bother to calculate it. The givens are always true, just not the conclusions.

Oooyyyy!

Originally posted by h1a8
Everything is a mistake except for the things that I want to use to prove Flash moved 13 trillion times the speed of light.

Originally posted by h1a8
The problem is that both the writer and author didn't bother to do the calculations as they didn't seem important to them nor to the reader. I say the feat is valid as Flash was moving X trillions C. Both the art of the cloud and the speed are just mistakes by the artist and writer, nothing more. The distance, the time, and the number of people are all correct as they were given in the story. The calculation on the other hand wasn't given since the writer did not bother to calculate it. The givens are always true, just not the conclusions. Y'know... my problem isn't so much that you're just arbitrarily declaring what is true or what is more likely to be true...

... it's that a # of posters are basically saying exactly the same thing for exactly the same reasons. Whether they want to admit it or not.

Originally posted by h1a8
The problem is that both the writer and author didn't bother to do the calculations as they didn't seem important to them nor to the reader. I say the feat is valid as Flash was moving X trillions C. Both the art of the cloud and the speed are just mistakes by the artist and writer, nothing more. The distance, the time, and the number of people are all correct as they were given in the story. The calculation on the other hand wasn't given since the writer did not bother to calculate it. The givens are always true, just not the conclusions. please stop this

that instance is just as much (if not moreso going the way you don't want it to per the narration (editor approved)) against lightspeed as it is for it. that's not flash's only feat you can use. read more comics

odg is correct, america has released the hundreds of previously classified footage of nuclear explosions, the first one ever Trinity was filmed under high speed camera and all that. i've read thick books about it

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Comics aren't about math. Your example is more apt than you realize. The difference between 5 lbs and the weight of the Earth must be the millions upon millions. It is an "exponential" difference. And here, the difference is in the millions upon millions as well, another "exponential" difference.

Let's not pretend that this scene was especially catered to the "true fan" who isn't fooled by plain English and utilizes a shocking tolerance for high numbers to get to the nugget of gold hidden between the lines. If a comic wants to hit you over the head with the enormity of a feat, they'll clonk you over the head with it. It wasn't enough that Savage Hulk braced a mountain over his head, they had to plaster a number on the cover. Planet busting isn't relegated to a small corner panel, it's accorded full page or double page spreads.

Comics are about the exhausting overuse of exclamation points. They're not about the patient interpretation of coded fine print. And this isn't even an example of fine print. It's just a mistake. And it's completely counter-intuitive to choose to stretch out that mistake to its highest possible limit over simply shrugging your shoulders and accepting the simplest interpretation.

If anybody thinks 13 trillion times the speed of light was the true intention, fine. Just remember what you had to go through to get to that conclusion. I personally found it tortuous, convoluted and ultimately inane. Apparently, to some, that's supposed to be an indication that you're reading it correctly. Forgive my skepticism. Comics do have a lax approach to them in most cases but they are still based and built off of the real world. Sure they slap on some powers, but it is still based off of the real world. There has to be some consistency in the story or else it isn't going to make sense or hold up. He rescued those people in that length of time, no different than Supes pulling the Earth. Especially post crisis.

I remember having this discussion with AC like 6 years back.

Originally posted by 753
word of the author on panel> fanmade nonsensical mathematical extrapolation produced for forum debates

I disagree: the author's can make mistakes. Take the "most correct" or least conflicting interpretation. Go crazy with this conclusion. If the writer says is was just under the speed of light, but it didn't require that, the author made a mistake.





OOOOR...the Flash had moments he traveled just under c and moments he didn't travel very fast, at all. This is how I interpretted that feat. Alas: the least conflicted.

I agree. The error is him saying Flash went the speed of light. Not making him save the city. That was the ultimate intention.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I agree. The error is him saying Flash went the speed of light. Not making him save the city. That was the ultimate intention.


I think you did a much better job of explaining your position than I did. I just don't agree with the mob-mentality of blindly following the stated feats from the writers. Sometimes...it literally does not add up. What do you do, then? If the writer did something obviously quite stupid, you should not just blindly follow it.




The mushroom cloud point is probably the best one made for why the feat does not add up

There's also the problem of the initial blast being VISIBLE but all the people were still in the city. As soon as you can see it, all of that electromagnetic radiation would have killed everyone near the blast AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because we saw the initial blast at 35 miles out, but none of them had been taken to the safe area, they were almost all already dead.

Writing fail. This is why we can't have nice things.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
"Clealry" 753 is so smart. He proceeds to call me a dumbass while having the reading comprehension, counting ability, and spelling of a toddler.

Simply amazing.

In his defense...I horribly botched my last post with wrong words, wrong punctuation, etc. Sometimes, people just get in a hurry and don't particularly pay attention to what they are typing. I rarely edit, and my posts show that. As long as what they post can be understood, there should not be a problem. Many of us are multi-national and English is not our original language (not me).


Still, the post I took that quote from was awesome. I had no idea that you had so much win.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Comics aren't about math. Your example is more apt than you realize. The difference between 5 lbs and the weight of the Earth must be the millions upon millions. It is an "exponential" difference. And here, the difference is in the millions upon millions as well, another "exponential" difference.

Let's not pretend that this scene was especially catered to the "true fan" who isn't fooled by plain English and utilizes a shocking tolerance for high numbers to get to the nugget of gold hidden between the lines. If a comic wants to hit you over the head with the enormity of a feat, they'll clonk you over the head with it. It wasn't enough that Savage Hulk braced a mountain over his head, they had to plaster a number on the cover. Planet busting isn't relegated to a small corner panel, it's accorded full page or double page spreads.

Comics are about the exhausting overuse of exclamation points. They're not about the patient interpretation of coded fine print. And this isn't even an example of fine print. It's just a mistake. And it's completely counter-intuitive to choose to stretch out that mistake to its highest possible limit over simply shrugging your shoulders and accepting the simplest interpretation.

If anybody thinks 13 trillion times the speed of light was the true intention, fine. Just remember what you had to go through to get to that conclusion. I personally found it tortuous, convoluted and ultimately inane. Apparently, to some, that's supposed to be an indication that you're reading it correctly. Forgive my skepticism.

Agreed on all accounts

So it is basically saying that "We shouldn't use things that are too complex." I've had this discussion with AC years ago, and it came up in Iceman threads where other members used chemistry equations amongst other things.

We are in a logical debate and comics are based around the real world. Now when I'm reading a comic; I have willing suspension of disbelief. Sure Flash being hit by someone of Batman's speed is fine for the sake of the plot. In a debate, I look at things closer than when I'm reading a comic book.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think you did a much better job of explaining your position than I did. I just don't agree with the mob-mentality of blindly following the stated feats from the writers. Sometimes...it literally does not add up. What do you do, then? If the writer did something obviously quite stupid, you should not just blindly follow it.




The mushroom cloud point is probably the best one made for why the feat does not add up

There's also the problem of the initial blast being VISIBLE but all the people were still in the city. As soon as you can see it, all of that electromagnetic radiation would have killed everyone near the blast AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because we saw the initial blast at 35 miles out, but none of them had been taken to the safe area, they were almost all already dead.

Writing fail. This is why we can't have nice things.



In his defense...I horribly botched my last post with wrong words, wrong punctuation, etc. Sometimes, people just get in a hurry and don't particularly pay attention to what they are typing. I rarely edit, and my posts show that. As long as what they post can be understood, there should not be a problem. Many of us are multi-national and English is not our original language (not me).


Still, the post I took that quote from was awesome. I had no idea that you had so much win.

That's my point. The cloud was there, it was a nuke, they had to be brought far away, and he had to be going faster than light. But yea.


I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. He started to insult me and then he made stupid errors in his own post. He obviously didn't know my reputation I had back when I first came and if he read my profile he would. I'm an easy going person, but I can unload when I feel the need. I just try not to do it anymore as it is a waste of time. I've seen more pissing contests than anybody lol. I had threads aimed at me for hate threads and I was nominated everywhere in best poster threads, blah blah blah. Those days are past me. I just want to chill out and post and discuss, but when someone becomes an idiot I have to put them in their place. He got what he deserved.

You type and speak fine and you weren't being an obtuse ******* either. You've never bothered me.

ODG arguing about how were supposed to read comics now. This has nothing to do with the debate were having.

In the comic it says under the speed of light and that's fine for the comic but in a debate why would I hold up something that's obviously false like your trying to do and pass it off as an undeniable truth looking like a fool in the process.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Comics aren't about math. Your example is more apt than you realize. The difference between 5 lbs and the weight of the Earth must be the millions upon millions. It is an "exponential" difference. And here, the difference is in the millions upon millions as well, another "exponential" difference.

Let's not pretend that this scene was especially catered to the "true fan" who isn't fooled by plain English and utilizes a shocking tolerance for high numbers to get to the nugget of gold hidden between the lines. If a comic wants to hit you over the head with the enormity of a feat, they'll clonk you over the head with it. It wasn't enough that Savage Hulk braced a mountain over his head, they had to plaster a number on the cover. Planet busting isn't relegated to a small corner panel, it's accorded full page or double page spreads.

Comics are about the exhausting overuse of exclamation points. They're not about the patient interpretation of coded fine print. And this isn't even an example of fine print. It's just a mistake. And it's completely counter-intuitive to choose to stretch out that mistake to its highest possible limit over simply shrugging your shoulders and accepting the simplest interpretation.

If anybody thinks 13 trillion times the speed of light was the true intention, fine. Just remember what you had to go through to get to that conclusion. I personally found it tortuous, convoluted and ultimately inane. Apparently, to some, that's supposed to be an indication that you're reading it correctly. Forgive my skepticism.

Originally posted by King Kandy
For all you know the town could have had 5000 people.
So we ignore two specific numbers, associated both with the fictional (520000) and real world numbers (327000), and rather go with the made-up "it could have had 5000 people for all you know!".

How dumb can people actually get?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Whatever, of course it did! The time cited couldn't possibly be wrong. Let's go with the premise that the time cited is wrong. How long would you say an accurate estimate would be for the time it took Flash to evacuate the people, unharmed, after the bomb had gone off? Oops, it still makes him faster than light.

Well then, damn, let's shorten the distance he travelled. Oops. It still makes him faster than light, not only because of the fact that the art clearly depicts the distance as being several miles, but also because since it's a nuclear bomb, it has to have been quite a long distance for them to be unaffected.

Well then, let's randomly say that the population is smaller. No logical reason, but it suits your argument. Oops, the town is a real world one. But I already ignored the fictional number, why not ignore the real world number? There.

"I finally re-wrote all of the data given, the way it suits me, in order for it to go in line with my agenda. Hooray.

But I'll just say that "time" is the problem because otherwise it would have totally been under lightspeed! Yeah, not really. I would have to re-write all the statistics to my liking. But I hope they're dumb enough to think otherwise! "

I feel like in every thread I go, I find you say even dumber things that the last time to further your agendas.

I want play the "ignoring comic statements and making up crap" game. Ok, Gladiator was hit by a solar system destroying blast that pushed him back by the planet Pluto. After getting hit by this blast, he made it to Earth in 2 panels, before Reed could even finish his sentence. With that said, he had to been going much faster than 100 times the speed of light. So since we are in the "making up craps for a character" mood, I'm going to say he was going at least 300 times the speed of light, and that's the minimum. Forget what the writer said, I don't like him...300 is the number I want to use.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/370/wtfship2tj8.jpg/

I have some more feats that I want to do the same things with. I'll be back with them...this is kind of fun.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Uh-huh. For the people that don't realize what I was pointing out by mentioning a "FTL mushroom cloud," let's examine it. Between the flash of the initial detonation and the formation of a mushroom cloud of dust, only .00001 microsecond had elapsed. We know this because some of the people hadn't even been saved by the second panel. Only by the third.

.00001 microsecond = .01 nanosecond = 1/100th of a nanosecond. Light travels 1 foot in 1 nanosecond.

So I'm supposed to believe that the dust particles forming the mushroom cloud traveled tens of thousands of feet into the sky and ballooned out -- when a beam of light itself would only have traveled 1/10th of an inch in that same time frame? You're telling me the dust traveled millions of times light speed?

Whatever, of course it did! The time cited couldn't possibly be wrong. Only the speed cited was wrong. No other number cited could possibly have been wrong either...

... just like how Chongjin, North Korea, reportedly has a population of 327,000 people (not 532,000) in a country notorious for exaggerating it's own development. But, whatever! The 532,000 population cited couldn't possibly be wrong either. Only the speed.

Because if I don't think the speed is wrong, somehow, I'm being ghey about it and just hatin... yeah.

crackers I find it funny how you are passively trying to discredit the numerics given to us by the writer, yet are clinging to his 'sub-light' comments in that very same scene as though they are the end-all/be-all evidence. It doesn't work that way. You cannot claim half of a scene's narration is false, and claim the other half is fact in the very same breath.

...That's bordering on Mr Master's 'universe=omniverse' line of idiocylogic. g007-psyduck


Originally posted by King Kandy
For all you know the town could have had 5000 people. That is just one more number that you arbitrarily select as being the "constant" the others relate to. This. Makes. No. Sense.

Originally posted by Galan007
To accept one comment from the writer is to accept them all. That said, if you are going to accept his statements that Flash was moving just short of light speed, then you MUST accept the specific numbers he gave us regarding distance and time, as well.

35 miles one way?
532,000 individual people?
Flash carried 1, sometimes 2 people, at a time?
It took him .00001 microseconds?

Those are all ridiculously specific values. Considering Joe Kelly's portfolio, it's hard to believe he just pulled numerics like that out of his ass without putting any thought into them. My God, you can tell it's an FTL feat just by looking at those numbers. No math involved.

Anywho, it's just not cut and dry one way or the other = all I'm saying.

It can be looked at both ways- it is VERY subjective. That's why I never use that feat in any Flash-related threads.

Personally, I think Flash HAD to have been going > c to accomplish that feat because it couldn't have been done in that amount of time if he were moving < c. However, it's not something I would argue simply because of it's subjectivity.

Again it seems like there is some disconnect my friend. Let me try this again... One narration talks SPECIFICALLY about speed. The other is extrapolation of what he auther COULD"VE been meaning to show. I don't know how those can be considered the same level of proof when talking about the speed he was going. Nobody is denying those figures carry the same weight in a GENERAL sense. However, by no means do they carry the same weight when talking specifically about his speed. Why.. because one says EXACTLY what speed he writer wanted him to travel... the other stuff is circumstancial-plot related facts that need to be extrapolated on further in order to come up with what the author could've been talking about. Put it like this.. do we KNOW that the author was meaning those figures to indicate speed... NO we don't know that at all, in fact that is very unlikely considering he gave us the speed he wanted flash to be traveling. One is a clear cut indication.. the other.. is conjecture on what the author was really intending. Not nearly the same level of proof... The best example I can give is this... A woman is murdered... They have two suspects.. One had his blood on the scene (DNA) and semen on the scene.. Pretty convincing and absolute. The other suspect.. was thought to have been seen in the area.. had a grudge against the woman and could'n't explain where he was at the time.. Yet all that is circumstancial evidence.. while the other is concrete evidence.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
semen Stopped reading. droolio









Srsly though, now people are nitpicking at the values the writer gave us (because I guess those must be wrong..?), while clinging to his < light speed comments as the absolute gospel... Which makes no sense to me.

But w/e, it's all trivial BS at this point anyway /shrug.

you don't agree that one is VERY SPECIFIC and convincing on how fast the author wanted flash to be traveling.. and the other, is well, no solid proof or convincing on what the other could've wanted flast to travel. One he made it very clear and specific... the other.. you need proof that the author KNEW the value and numbers he was giving would indicate the speed he wanted him to go. Do ANYBODY have an interview or any proof that this was the case.. NO. Thus, that isn't nearly as convincing at the author specifically and two times even saying the speed he wanted him to travel. In a general sense, narration is narration and carries the same weight... however, they don't carry the same wieight when talking specifically about the speed the author wanted him to travel. I agree though.. it is kinda silly and pointless.. then again my friend.. we are on a comic book versus forum

^ That's the thing, though- it's NOT that cut and dry.

Going by the very exact figures the writer gave us, Flash could not have accomplished that feat in that amount of time if he were moving below light speed. That's why it's arguable both ways.

The feat should be dismissed and never brought up on kmc again. It's to confusing and its very misleading.

^ Agreed. Ambiguous feats are the worst kind to try and justify, because both sides can make an argument.

...Plus, Flash literally has hundreds of other speed feats to choose from.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I did not claim in that post that the sub light speed quantification is free from doubt. Indeed, it being doubtful, like the others, is the core premise of my unextraordinary conclusion that the feat is speculative, and thus, one interpretation is as justifiable as the next. So your observation is irrelevant.

And make no mistake, I wasn't "passively" discrediting the other numbers. What I was doing was directly and actively discrediting them because of the hypocritical hasty assumptions that they're far freer from doubt than the speed quantification. No, they're not. Especially when we now know (i) how the population was off by the hundreds of thousands (taking for granted N. Korea's dubious census results), and (ii) that we apparently have a FTL mushroom cloud forming at million times light speed from the .00001 microsecond timing. You should direct your angst elsewhere. In nearly every post I've made in this thread, I've explained the extreme ambiguity of said feat, and why neither side can be deemed correct or incorrect. That said, if you're saying the specific values the writer noted in that scene are incorrect (which you apparently are), then you must also take note of the blatant falsity in his "sub-c" comments as well. Fair is fair, after all.

Originally posted by Galan007
You should direct your angst elsewhere. In nearly every post I've made in this thread, I've explained the extreme ambiguity of said feat, and why neither side can be deemed correct or incorrect. I addressed your incorrect observation that I am committed to the sub light speed quantification. Nothing else. Context helps.Originally posted by Galan007
That said, if you're saying the specific values the writer noted in that scene are incorrect (which you apparently are), then you must also take note of the blatant falsity in his "sub-c" comments as well. Fair is fair, after all. It's as blatantly false as the other numbers that haven't already been proven to be blatantly false.

On the street level, this kind of thing happens all the time... You get, say, Cap, blatantly moving faster than a bullet. Or, Daredevil deflecting bullets with his club. Than you have either character claiming they can't outrace a bullet.. Yet, they "did" outrace bullets.

So they outraced bullets, even if they claim they can't.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I addressed your incorrect observation that I am committed to the sub light speed quantification. Nothing else. Context helps.

It's as blatantly false as the other numbers that haven't already been proven to be blatantly false. Good gravy you like arguing just to argue. g007-psyduck

If you need to have the last word, that's fine. At least you seem to understand the ambiguity of that feat, by essentially restating what I have been saying- ie. you could call it a sub-light feat, and I could call it a FTL feat, and neither of us could be definitively proven correct or incorrect. The on panel narration supports both opinions.

You two are just best pals.

This is just like the thread I made not long ago though.Originally posted by cdtm
On the street level, this kind of thing happens all the time... You get, say, Cap, blatantly moving faster than a bullet. Or, Daredevil deflecting bullets with his club. Than you have either character claiming they can't outrace a bullet.. Yet, they "did" outrace bullets.

So they outraced bullets, even if they claim they can't. Which is my point. Or saying things like "XXx is faster than me or hits harder than the Hulk."

We street level debaters know this.

I ask again which nobody can seen to answer....

Do we know FOR CERTAIN that the writer wanted to use the number of people, time etc etc to quantify flash's speed? Do anybody have ANY interview or ANYTHING stating this was his intent? Which is exactly the point.. I agree it CAN be argued both ways.. but lets not kid ourselves here... one is clearly and without question the writers intent in talking about flash's speed (even mentions it twice for good measure) the other is just facts related to the plot and the feat which we have NO IDEA whether the writer really wanted those numbers to be crunched to come up with a speed. To say those levels of proof are the same when talking about speed and speed only isn't accurate.