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This isn't a versus battle this is a comparison on who is more evil and without any redeeming qualities. These two both seem as evil as they come in movies so I think this is a good comparison to make here.

Let the speculating begin.

I reckon Sidious is more evil more long reaching influence. He lives for it, whereas Voldy just hated Muggles and any who stood in his way of their genocide.

Darth Sidious, The guy manage to infiltrate the republic senate and then slowy rise in power.

Originally posted by the ninjak
I reckon Sidious is more evil more long reaching influence. He lives for it, whereas Voldy just hated Muggles and any who stood in his way of their genocide. Both will do whatever and kill whoever stands in the way of their quest for power imo. Now I don't see Sidious' longer reaching influence as proof of being more evil he just covered more territory.

Don't forget Voldemort rejected all of his humanity and didn't have a single friend in the world.

I would say they are equall.
Both killed, and had others killed
Both sought out supremacy
And both were undoubtably irredeameable.

Sidious.

Not only did he give up his humanity as well, he manipulated millions, created an army that gained the jedi's trust, only to have them stab them in the back. Took over the universe, blew up a planet to prove a point, killed anyone who whispered anything bad about him, plucked at anakin's heart strings and turned him almost completely evil.

He covered a much larger scale, whereas Voldey just wanted pure bloods in charge and Harry dead.

palpatine

Originally posted by KingD19
Sidious.

Not only did he give up his humanity as well, he manipulated millions, created an army that gained the jedi's trust, only to have them stab them in the back. Took over the universe, blew up a planet to prove a point, killed anyone who whispered anything bad about him, plucked at anakin's heart strings and turned him almost completely evil.

He covered a much larger scale, whereas Voldey just wanted pure bloods in charge and Harry dead.

True Palpy managed to corrupt Anakin whereas Voldy just disgusted everybody around him, he couldn't sway Malfoy and Harry.

Palpy had the ability to infuse the Darkside into people making them loyal. Whereas Voldy had to do it with standover fear tactics and failed.

Originally posted by KingD19
Sidious.

Not only did he give up his humanity as well, he manipulated millions, created an army that gained the jedi's trust, only to have them stab them in the back. Took over the universe, blew up a planet to prove a point, killed anyone who whispered anything bad about him, plucked at anakin's heart strings and turned him almost completely evil.

He covered a much larger scale, whereas Voldey just wanted pure bloods in charge and Harry dead. Just because he effected a wider range doesn't make him any more evil. Voldemort trusted no one save his own counsel unlike Sidious. Voldemort also wouldn't groom someone to be more powerful than himself which Sidious believed in his own mind.

Who do you think Sidious trusted? He didn't even trust Anakin who was his second in command before he himself knew it. Everything that happened was according to his plan, that wasn't hyperbole or boasting, that was fact. The only thing that surprised him was Luke's strength in the force and his ability to resist the pull of the dark side.

Originally posted by KingD19
Who do you think Sidious trusted? He didn't even trust Anakin who was his second in command before he himself knew it. Everything that happened was according to his plan, that wasn't hyperbole or boasting, that was fact. The only thing that surprised him was Luke's strength in the force and his ability to resist the pull of the dark side. He did trust Anakin/Vader as he saved him from Luke's saber attack and completely dropped his guard when he was force zapping Luke. That caused his downfall. Anakin was the ultimate betrayer.

Voldemort by far. Palpatine because he manipulated the Senate? Those guys were a bunch of tards and you know it. And even if I did find that impressive, that's not "evil". Voldemort is "evil". He is cruel, kills without compunction, all for essentially sadism.

Originally posted by Lestov16
He is cruel, kills without compunction, all for essentially sadism.

And Palpatine doesn't... I seem to recall him creating a world destroying weapon. Also Palpatine takes delight in pain and carnage. Heck, he is overjoyed when his minions are defeated and about to be killed.

And I don't recall once where Voldemort killed someone just becasue he could.

BTW I find Voldemort to be the more compelling villian. He has some awesome motivations such as he ideas of blood purity despite being a half blood himself. And I love how he views Hogwarts as his "birth right". However, he just does not seem to be as evil.

Originally posted by ares834
And Palpatine doesn't... I seem to recall him creating a world destroying weapon. Also Palpatine takes delight in pain and carnage. Heck, he is overjoyed when his minions are defeated and about to be killed.

And I don't recall once where Voldemort killed someone just becasue he could.

BTW I find Voldemort to be the more compelling villian. He has some awesome motivations such as he ideas of blood purity despite being a half blood himself. And I love how he views Hogwarts as his "birth right". However, he just does not seem to be as evil. How doesn't he seem to be as evil ? he had no friends and actually shoved Belltraix just for trying to help him to his feet after the killing curse was used on harry potter. Sidious wasn't anywhere near that.

Originally posted by quanchi112
How doesn't he seem to be as evil ? he had no friends and actually shoved Belltraix just for trying to help him to his feet after the killing curse was used on harry potter. Sidious wasn't anywhere near that.

Umm... Sidious wants Luke to kill his closest "supporter".... Which is more evil? I'll give you a little clue: Sidious.

Originally posted by ares834
Umm... Sidious wants Luke to kill his closest "supporter".... Which is more evil? I'll give you a little clue: Sidious. To turn Luke over to the dark side. It all benefited and served a purpose. Sidious would have treated Luke great while Voldmort shoved people down who tried to help him. Someone else said something to him as well and he killed him for it.

Look at the way Voldemort killed Snape who was a loyal servant he had his snake bite him and cause him to suffer. Ruthlessness. Sidious just isn't up to snuff here.

Honestly, knocking over Bellatrix really wasn't that evil... And sure he killed a dude who pissed him off. Vader does that crap as well (Motti) and Palpatine isn't as "forgiving" as Vader.

As for Snape. Sure that was evil, but Palpatine relishes the pain of his servants as well. Remember how he smirked after Vader cried out in aungish in RotS.

But when it comes down to it Sidious created planet destorying weapons with the intent to use them. I'm sorry but Voldemort hasn't done anything nearly as evil as that.

Originally posted by ares834


Honestly, knocking over Bellatrix really wasn't that evil... And sure he killed a dude who pissed him off. Vader does that crap as well (Motti) and Palpatine isn't as "forgiving" as Vader.

As for Snape. Sure that was evil, but Palpatine relishes the pain of his servants as well. Remember how he smirked after Vader cried out in aungish in RotS.

But when it comes down to it Sidious created planet destorying weapons with the intent to use them. I'm sorry but Voldemort hasn't done anything nearly as evil as that. Pushing someone done for helping you and killing someone for basically the same thing iirc is worse than Sidious. I don't see him tossing people down for helping him to his feet.

He smirked because he knew this drew him deeper into the dark side.

Voldemort didn't have access to that in the hp verse and don't confuse scale with evil as both were clearly without remorse about committing mass murder.

I'm gonna say Voldemort. I think some here seem to be conflating evilness with scope. Palpatine working on a larger scale and having greater ambitions doesn't make him more evil.

Palpatine was cruel, evil, manipulative, and ruthless but unlike Voldemort his aims and goals were ultimately driven by more than just petty evil and the self-aggrandizing creation of a cult of personality.

There's hints that Palpatine was at least part ways motivated by a perverse concern for the well being of the Galaxy, that is he believed that the Galaxy had to be united and ordered under strong authority if it was to survive. I think it was one of the books that showed that Palpatine realized that the Galactic Republic wouldn't be strong enough to resist the impending Yuuzhan Vong invasion and thus needed to make the Empire.

Now I'm not saying that this justifies any of what Palpatine did, but at least it shows he had some motive beyond evil for the sake of evil and power for the sake of power.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
There's hints that Palpatine was at least part ways motivated by a perverse concern for the well being of the Galaxy, that is he believed that the Galaxy had to be united and ordered under strong authority if it was to survive. I think it was one of the books that showed that Palpatine realized that the Galactic Republic wouldn't be strong enough to resist the impending Yuuzhan Vong invasion and thus needed to make the Empire.

Mere excuses. Palpatine wanted control off the galaxy because he is a power hungry bastard not because he wanteded to defend it. And if we want to take the EU into consideration well then you gotta include DE where his end goal is to turn everyone into his dark side slaves.

I'd say they are both just as evil, but Sidious was a LOT better at it.

Originally posted by ares834
Mere excuses. Palpatine wanted control off the galaxy because he is a power hungry bastard not because he wanteded to defend it. And if we want to take the EU into consideration well then you gotta include DE where his end goal is to turn everyone into his dark side slaves. EU isn't up for consideration. Answer me this do you think Sidious had any friends ?

No.

Originally posted by ares834
No. You don't think he'd consider Vader a friend or those two he watched the opera with in rots ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
You don't think he'd consider Vader a friend or those two he watched the opera with in rots ?
No... Vader plans to overthrow Palpatine from the start and Palpatine actually wants Luke to kill Vader.

As for the other two. Those are merely his bureaucratic aides there is no reason to believe there is any friendship between them. Heck, listen to how cooly he dismisses them in RotS.

Voldemort - and I think one of the key battles here is when Voldemort kills Snape... it's a lot worse in the book, Voldemort drags out the time, saying that Snape is his most trusted servant, has done the most to help Voldemort, Voldemort would always bring his most troublesome problems to Snape to fix.

And if that's not enough, he put Snape in charge of his "inheritance," the one place he actually revered - Hogwarts.

And then he kills this man without a glance backward - doesn't even stay to see Snape die off, or tell him that "this is for the best." Nope - just tells the snake to attack. Voldemort didn't even trouble to his confidante himself, he let his pet do it.

That moment shows just how irredeemable Tom Riddle really is.

How old is Palpatine when he starts being evil? Just starting with the new triliogy?

Cause Voldemort killed his own family when he was fifteen. He did disturbing things to the kids in the orphanage he lived in from being an infant, to being eleven. And that's not even starting to train his evilness.

Voldemort.... is a bad. Egg.

Originally posted by ares834
No... Vader plans to overthrow Palpatine from the start and Palpatine actually wants Luke to kill Vader.

As for the other two. Those are merely his bureaucratic aides there is no reason to believe there is any friendship between them. Heck, listen to how cooly he dismisses them in RotS. Yes, once he outlived his usefulness he was fully prepared to kill or do away with Vader by Luke's hand.

He probably didn't have any friends we can prove but I just think Voldemort was more ruthless and didn't take anyone else' opinion more so than Sidious.

Originally posted by ares834
Mere excuses. Palpatine wanted control off the galaxy because he is a power hungry bastard not because he wanteded to defend it. And if we want to take the EU into consideration well then you gotta include DE where his end goal is to turn everyone into his dark side slaves.
*shrug* Like I said, I'm not defending or excusing his actions.

Voldemort, but not by much.

The key difference between the two is that everything Voldemort did, he completely chose to do, Sidious was raised and bred by his master, and beyond that felt the natural taint of the Dark Side, so you could argue that not all of the evils he committed were entirely of his choosing.

Grand Moff Tarkin>Both though.

Wasn't Palpatine actually a little afraid of Tarkin because of how devoid he was of any form of empathy or humanity?

Or maybe afraid isn't the right word.

Wary is a better word.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You don't think he'd consider Vader a friend or those two he watched the opera with in rots ?

No, not at all. Those were pawns, not friends.
Do you think Voldemort considers his Deatheaters friends?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Wasn't Palpatine actually a little afraid of Tarkin because of how devoid he was of any form of empathy or humanity?

Or maybe afraid isn't the right word.

Not afraid, but taken back. It wasn't because Tarkin was more evil, but because Palpatine was always the dirtiest guy around, but then he met someone that could challenge that, not surpass it.

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
No, not at all. Those were pawns, not friends.
Do you think Voldemort considers his Deatheaters friends? Not but the manner of their interactions was vastly different. No one was anything to Voldemort unlike Vader whom of which Sidious thought would be greater even than him one day.

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
I'd say they are both just as evil, but Sidious was a LOT better at it.

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
Not afraid, but taken back. It wasn't because Tarkin was more evil, but because Palpatine was always the dirtiest guy around, but then he met someone that could challenge that, not surpass it. I'd say Tarkin is a bit more vile and evil than Palpatine is.

Being a completely normal human being helps.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Voldemort by far. Palpatine because he manipulated the Senate? Those guys were a bunch of tards and you know it. And even if I did find that impressive, that's not "evil". Voldemort is "evil". He is cruel, kills without compunction, all for essentially sadism.


So the Harry Potter folk aren't 'tards?

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Voldemort - and I think one of the key battles here is when Voldemort kills Snape... it's a lot worse in the book, Voldemort drags out the time, saying that Snape is his most trusted servant, has done the most to help Voldemort, Voldemort would always bring his most troublesome problems to Snape to fix.

And if that's not enough, he put Snape in charge of his "inheritance," the one place he actually revered - Hogwarts.

And then he kills this man without a glance backward - doesn't even stay to see Snape die off, or tell him that "this is for the best." Nope - just tells the snake to attack. Voldemort didn't even trouble to his confidante himself, he let his pet do it.

That moment shows just how irredeemable Tom Riddle really is.

How old is Palpatine when he starts being evil? Just starting with the new triliogy?

Cause Voldemort killed his own family when he was fifteen. He did disturbing things to the kids in the orphanage he lived in from being an infant, to being eleven. And that's not even starting to train his evilness.

Voldemort.... is a bad. Egg.

It's all but stated in ROTS that he was a Sith since he was born.

Sidious is cooler than Voldemort anyway.

Originally posted by Dr Will Hatch
Sidious is cooler than Voldemort anyway. Not even close to Voldemort in coolness.

Voldemort isn't cool at all.

At least Palpatine can shoot lightning from his fingertips.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Voldemort isn't cool at all.

At least Palpatine can shoot lightning from his fingertips. Voldemort can create giant fire snakes and shoot more powerful blasts from his wand than what force lightning is capable of. Voldemort can also fly. Beat that Palp.

Voldemort has more on-screen feats of petty malice: torture; random, callous murder; attempted infanticide; etc.

Palpatine was responsible for wholesale destruction and genocide on a galactic scale.

It depends on how one determines evil. Voldemort's actions are much more spiteful; Palpatine's got an infinitely higher body count. Given what we know of each character, I'm inclined to call it a draw.

Originally posted by JokerGetsMeHard
Voldemort has more on-screen feats of petty malice: torture; random, callous murder; attempted infanticide; etc.

Palpatine was responsible for wholesale destruction and genocide on a galactic scale.

It depends on how one determines evil. Voldemort's actions are much more spiteful; Palpatine's got an infinitely higher body count. Given what we know of each character, I'm inclined to call it a draw. Palpatine has the means to achieve a higher body count and his movies also allow for this to happen as they occur on a galactic scale as opposed to just on earth with a magical world thrown inside to boot.

I think it's very close but give Voldemort the slightest of edges. Voldemort would throw you down for trying to help him to his feet and I don't think Sidious would do such a thing in the movies anyways. I have no idea about the eu since I haven't read any of them.

quanchi112
Palpatine has the means to achieve a higher body count and his movies also allow for this to happen as they occur on a galactic scale as opposed to just on earth with a magical world thrown inside to boot.

Voldemort's body count was relatively paltry given his means and his aspirations. I respect that Voldemort wasn't going out and slaughtering random people left and right for the lulz, but when Palpatine was operating from behind-the-scenes (like Voldemort), he was still directly responsible for billions of deaths across the galaxy.



Some of it comes down to a measure of subjectivity. If one considers petty behavior and spite to be the true manifestation of evil, Voldemort wins by a landslide. If one puts more weight in death and destruction, Palpatine has the "advantage" so to speak.

Originally posted by JokerGetsMeHard
Voldemort's body count was relatively paltry given his means and his aspirations. I respect that Voldemort wasn't going out and slaughtering random people left and right for the lulz, but when Palpatine was operating from behind-the-scenes (like Voldemort), he was still directly responsible for billions of deaths across the galaxy.



Some of it comes down to a measure of subjectivity. If one considers petty behavior and spite to be the true manifestation of evil, Voldemort wins by a landslide. If one puts more weight in death and destruction, Palpatine has the "advantage" so to speak. The point to me is if this sort of action was required by Voldemort with the means to accomplish it no doubt would he have done the same thing.

To me I can't leave it up to massive death and destruction because a star wars character has the greater means and population to dwarf that of the entire hpotter universe.

They're both equally immoral. Both were never anything other than evil, both pretended to fit in and be moral people in their (relative) youth, both manipulated those around them to do their bidding, both targeted a certain group for eradication/enslavement (and if the Expanded Universe is considered for a moment, both went to great lengths to enure their immortality).


The only difference I've seen is that Palpatine had a larger arena (a galaxy) to work with, but that doesn't mean a thing in terms of morality. And Palpatine was more open to display his satisfaction via laughter, though Voldemort's comparative restraint in no way means higher morality.

Saying Sidious wins because he had a larger scale is actually very incorrect.

That said, Sidious is more evil. Feats are on his side. Considering he corrupted what was basically the Messiah of the Star Wars Universe, turning him evil and making him a servant for the rest of his life. Voldy can't lay claim to that.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Saying Sidious wins because he had a larger scale is actually very incorrect.

That said, Sidious is more evil. Feats are on his side. Considering he corrupted what was basically the Messiah of the Star Wars Universe, turning him evil and making him a servant for the rest of his life. Voldy can't lay claim to that. Anakin was a troubled soul and in the end fulfilled the prophecy just fine. Anakin was also very weak mentally imo. Voldemort made a devoted follower in his own eyes suffer for no real reason when all he wanted was Snape dead so he could be the rightful owner of the elder wand.

To mark the scoreboard properly, Voldemort has personally killed more people to further his own ends,

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
To mark the scoreboard properly, Voldemort has personally killed more people to further his own ends, I personally think the amount of deaths killed personally or amount of deaths caused by their commands/actions are irrelevant since they would kill any amount to further their own conquest.

Yeah, a near 20 something years later. Lot of evil things happened in those 20 years. Then there was the year before that that Sidious caused. He killed Snape the way he did because there was no other way to do it, considering the wand didn't work. That and it's not like Snape was that devoted to him anyway.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
To mark the scoreboard properly, Voldemort has personally killed more people to further his own ends,

Which isn't always the most effective way to do things. Personally killing someone doesn't make one more evil than someone who orders them killed.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Yeah, a near 20 something years later. Lot of evil things happened in those 20 years. Then there was the year before that that Sidious caused. He killed Snape the way he did because there was no other way to do it, considering the wand didn't work. That and it's not like Snape was that devoted to him anyway.



Which isn't always the most effective way to do things. Personally killing someone doesn't make one more evil than someone who orders them killed. He didn't know Snape was playing for the other side. He considered him a faithful and competent servant. He could have just killed him but he let his Nagini cause him to suffer.

By the same respect scale doesn't make anyone more or less evil either.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I personally think the amount of deaths killed personally or amount of deaths caused by their commands/actions are irrelevant since they would kill any amount to further their own conquest. True, but to those who don't consider that sentiment, Voldemort "appears" to have done more, simply by lieu of being seeing more. But I don't think that should have any effect of one's moral standing.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He didn't know Snape was playing for the other side. He considered him a faithful and competent servant. He could have just killed him but he let his Nagini cause him to suffer.

By the same respect scale doesn't make anyone more or less evil either.

He had no other ways to kill him. He didn't think the wand would work at the time against Snape, meaning Snape had to be killed through other means, I.e Nagini. Had he just left Snape there to bleed to death through his throat wound, Snape could always just heal it.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
True, but to those who don't consider that sentiment, Voldemort "appears" to have done more, simply by lieu of being seeing more. But I don't think that should have any effect of one's moral standing. I don't either. I try to see a shred of humanity and I don't really see it in either so at best it's a victory in however you see it personally to varying degrees.

I'm not judging "evil" on kill count, but rather the sadism that went behind those kills. Palpatine killed more out of ruthless ambition than pure malicious sadism, which is why I think Voldy takes this.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He had no other ways to kill him. He didn't think the wand would work at the time against Snape, meaning Snape had to be killed through other means, I.e Nagini. Had he just left Snape there to bleed to death through his throat wound, Snape could always just heal it. He just used the wand to cut him badly. Why not just cut him until death right away why allow the snake the tortured death.

Originally posted by Lestov16
I'm not judging "evil" on kill count, but rather the sadism that went behind those kills. Palpatine killed more out of ruthless ambition than pure malicious sadism, which is why I think Voldy takes this. I would say that so casually killing people and not feeling satisfaction from it, is indicative of a lack of emotion (empathy, caring, delight). Such disconnect from the world at such would render acts of evil to be very easy to perform.



Plus he seemed pretty freaking delighted that his plan to kill the Jedi and found an Empire at the cost of a galaxy-spanning war went off swimmingly. He also seemed extremely delighted that his Bigger-Better Planet-Buster was fully operational and that the many thousands of people who opposed him were about to be slaughtered, all the while he relished in the assumed corruption of the last beacon of the Light Side. I'd call his maniacal laughs of victory through war and death to be an indication of sadism.

He also looked pretty sadistic during the torture of Luke in ROTJ.
His sadism is often concealed behind his mask of composure which slips only occasionally, due to his mastery of the space-trololols.

He did seem to be enjoying his torture of Luke but I also feel this was due to the frustration of his failure in corrupting Luke more than anything else. Once he realized he wasn't turning he wanted to make him suffer for refusing him before death.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He did seem to be enjoying his torture of Luke but I also feel this was due to the frustration of his failure in corrupting Luke more than anything else. Once he realized he wasn't turning he wanted to make him suffer for refusing him before death. He... laughed because he was frustrated?



That's a unique approach to handling frustration. Does it work for you? I'll give it a shot next time something's got me so ticked.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He... laughed because he was frustrated?

Actually, I've seen people laugh out of frustration, but it's a different kind of laugh. Certainly not gleeful or animated, but just a cynical chuckle or two.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He... laughed because he was frustrated?



That's a unique approach to handling frustration. Does it work for you? I'll give it a shot next time something's got me so ticked. I didn't think he was laughing only due to frustration but I do feel frustration certainly was going on in his head after he failed turning Luke.

That was probably the source of his anger, but I think the source of his glee and delightfully sadistic laughter was that he was torturing and killing the last of the hated Jedi. His enemies were all being destroyed--HAHAHA!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That was probably the source of his anger, but I think the source of his glee and delightfully sadistic laughter was that he was torturing and killing the last of the hated Jedi. His enemies were all being destroyed--HAHAHA! Yes, I'd say it was two emotions mainly joy in the fact he's torturing someone he grew frustrated with for turning down his attempts at converting him.

Voldemort imo.

Sidious.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Sidious. Why ?

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Voldemort - and I think one of the key battles here is when Voldemort kills Snape... it's a lot worse in the book, Voldemort drags out the time, saying that Snape is his most trusted servant, has done the most to help Voldemort, Voldemort would always bring his most troublesome problems to Snape to fix.

And if that's not enough, he put Snape in charge of his "inheritance," the one place he actually revered - Hogwarts.

And then he kills this man without a glance backward - doesn't even stay to see Snape die off, or tell him that "this is for the best." Nope - just tells the snake to attack. Voldemort didn't even trouble to his confidante himself, he let his pet do it.

That moment shows just how irredeemable Tom Riddle really is.

How old is Palpatine when he starts being evil? Just starting with the new triliogy?

Cause Voldemort killed his own family when he was fifteen. He did disturbing things to the kids in the orphanage he lived in from being an infant, to being eleven. And that's not even starting to train his evilness.

Voldemort.... is a bad. Egg.

Actually, you say that, but here's two things.

1) Age doesn't matter.
2) Palpatine practiced the Dark Side since he was young, and even killed his own master in cold blood.

Palpatine is just as evil, but he's a different type of evil. Voldemort always had great power, but Palpatine WANTED it. He was ambitious, and was willing to kill anyone without mercy to get it.

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
Palpatine is just as evil, but he's a different type of evil. Voldemort always had great power, but Palpatine WANTED it. He was ambitious, and was willing to kill anyone without mercy to get it. That... sounds a lot like Voldemort too.

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
Actually, you say that, but here's two things.

1) Age doesn't matter.
2) Palpatine practiced the Dark Side since he was young, and even killed his own master in cold blood.

Palpatine is just as evil, but he's a different type of evil. Voldemort always had great power, but Palpatine WANTED it. He was ambitious, and was willing to kill anyone without mercy to get it. Oh come on now we both know your silly little point at the end applies to Voldemort as well save one critical oversight. Palpatine speculated Vader would dwarf him in power someday whereas Voldemort would never allow someone to outshine him. Ever.

Originally posted by quanchi112
This isn't a versus battle this is a comparison on who is more evil and without any redeeming qualities. These two both seem as evil as they come in movies so I think this is a good comparison to make here.

Let the speculating begin.

Sidious is not evil at all. He's good actually.
If you watch Revenge of the Sith then you will learn his philosophy.
His philosophy is a sound one. He was also very honest to Anakin. He never lied to him.

Evil is to kill or make suffer for pure pleasure or selfish reasons.
Sidious had a grand plan for the Galaxy and it's not to kill it or make beings suffer for pleasure.

By actual feats.. Sids stomps. If we're looking for actual acts, the best feats if you will, of somebody showing how evil they are.. Palps destroying an entire planet full of people just to get Leia to talk is by far the worst. They are both evil, but based on feats Sids stomps

Tommy is just a coward that let his fear rule him.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
By actual feats.. Sids stomps. If we're looking for actual acts, the best feats if you will, of somebody showing how evil they are.. Palps destroying an entire planet full of people just to get Leia to talk is by far the worst. They are both evil, but based on feats Sids stomps

But it was required for the grand scheme of things which is a good for all in the galaxy.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
By actual feats.. Sids stomps. If we're looking for actual acts, the best feats if you will, of somebody showing how evil they are.. Palps destroying an entire planet full of people just to get Leia to talk is by far the worst. They are both evil, but based on feats Sids stomps

That was actually Grand Moff Tarkin.

http://youtu.be/p0qLzsIhUMk

Not only did he get Leia to "talk", he still went ahead and blew up the planet anyway.

Tho, it would have been prudent for him to check to see if she was telling the truth BEFORE blowing up his biggest leverage.

Evil bastard. Not very smart, tho.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
By actual feats.. Sids stomps. If we're looking for actual acts, the best feats if you will, of somebody showing how evil they are.. Palps destroying an entire planet full of people just to get Leia to talk is by far the worst. They are both evil, but based on feats Sids stomps Do you realize how retarded that logic is ? Of course you don't because you are retarded but for ****s sake you are one of the worst debaters I've ever seen.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
That was actually Grand Moff Tarkin.

http://youtu.be/p0qLzsIhUMk

Not only did he get Leia to "talk", he still went ahead and blew up the planet anyway.

Tho, it would have been prudent for him to check to see if she was telling the truth BEFORE blowing up his biggest leverage.

Evil bastard. Not very smart, tho. Thanks for educating him since he's completely ignorant all things Star Wars and fantasy related.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Tommy is just a coward that let his fear rule him. Based on ? Palpatine was scared of little Yoda for ****s sake. He tried fleeing like a ***** in a fair one on one fight.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
That was actually Grand Moff Tarkin.

http://youtu.be/p0qLzsIhUMk

Not only did he get Leia to "talk", he still went ahead and blew up the planet anyway.

Tho, it would have been prudent for him to check to see if she was telling the truth BEFORE blowing up his biggest leverage.

Evil bastard. Not very smart, tho.

Agreed, but he was under order from Vader, who by proxy Is under orders from Sids.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Do you realize how retarded that logic is ? Of course you don't because you are retarded but for ****s sake you are one of the worst debaters I've ever seen.

You don't say, then let's examine the worst thing Volde did and we'll examine the worst atrocities Sids did. That is the only way to determine who is most evil. You know, feats of being evil. Only a retard would think otherwise, then again, it's you

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Agreed, but he was under order from Vader, who by proxy Is under order from Sids. If you have no proof Palpatine gave the order then you lied about the feat. Ignorance. You're a waste of time and your logic was piss poor. It's like saying Jason Voorhees is more evil than Krueger based off the body count of the visible kills in the movies discounting their reasoning.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You don't say, then let's examine the worst thing Volde did and we'll examine the worst atrocities Sids did. That is the only way to determine who is most evil. You know, feats of being evil. Only a retard would think otherwise, then again, it's you No, it isn't. Evil is being selfish and taking no one else into account other than yourself. Voldemort was only about himself whereas Sidious was about his point of view and doing what he felt was best for the Galaxy. He also freely promoted someone he believed would become more powerful than himself.

Voldemort would make this guy shit his pants.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Agreed, but he was under order from Vader, who by proxy Is under orders from Sids.

Actually, from that point in SW, Vader was portrayed more of an enforcer than an actual general in Palp's army. It seems to look like, at that point, that Tarkin outrank Vader or at least was seen to hold total authority in the Death Star, at least.

Example: Tarkin ordered Vader to release Motti. Or when Leiea said: "Governor Tarkin. I should have expected to find you holding Vader's leash. I recognized your foul stench when I was brought onboard."

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Actually, from that point in SW, Vader was portrayed more of an enforcer than an actual general in Palp's army. It seems to look like, at that point, that Tarkin outrank Vader or at least was seen to hold total authority in the Death Star, at least.

Example: Tarkin ordered Vader to release Motti. Or when Leiea said: "Governor Tarkin. I should have expected to find you holding Vader's leash. I recognized your foul stench when I was brought onboard."

Kt getting shown up again and again and again.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, your definition is supported by my own. I am using Palpatine's own words with how he regards evil as a point of view. He doesn't view himself as evil. Let's hear these feats of him being evil. What has he done that can eclipse killing a mother and father to going after a baby ?

Let's go, nerd. I'll destroy you even according to your retarded logic.

How can it be supported moron, literally NOT A SINGLE WORD OF HOW YOU DEFINED EVIL is in the true definition of Evil or a synonym of evil. None. Just admit, you don't know how to define evil or what the word means. Doesn't surprise me, but that is what happened.

That's the best you can do? Really? Serial killers have done worse. You better come up with something better than that

Order 66 alone destroys that argument
Ordering Vader to go to the Jedi Temple to kill YOUNG Jedi's eclipses that by a mile

Game, set, match

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Actually, from that point in SW, Vader was portrayed more of an enforcer than an actual general in Palp's army. It seems to look like, at that point, that Tarkin outrank Vader or at least was seen to hold total authority in the Death Star, at least.

Example: Tarkin ordered Vader to release Motti. Or when Leiea said: "Governor Tarkin. I should have expected to find you holding Vader's leash. I recognized your foul stench when I was brought onboard."

I understand your point, but I don't agree in the least. Vader was the one in command there and the one speaking directly with Palps. Think about it, in ESB, he killed an admiral seemingly of the same rank as Tarkin for coming out of hyperspace early. Then he says, now ____ you're not in charge. I find it hard to believe Vader wasn't in charge in any one of those scenes.

Originally posted by quanchi112


Kt getting shown up again and again and again.

Clueless as usual

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How can it be supported moron, literally NOT A SINGLE WORD OF HOW YOU DEFINED EVIL is in the true definition of Evil or a synonym of evil. None. Just admit, you don't know how to define evil or what the word means. Doesn't surprise me, but that is what happened.

That's the best you can do? Really? Serial killers have done worse. You better come up with something better than that

Order 66 alone destroys that argument
Ordering Vader to go to the Jedi Temple to kill YOUNG Jedi's eclipses that by a mile

Game, set, match Being evil is being selfish you dunce,

Order 66 went up against the Jedi order who tried to bring him in. That's called defending yourself against the Jedi council that isn't evil. The Jedi came after him to arrest him. He didn't order the issue prior to that so once again you're back to square one.

What has he done that comes close to killing a mother and father while there to murder a baby.

You are really, really, really, really stupid.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I understand your point, but I don't agree in the least. Vader was the one in command there and the one speaking directly with Palps. Think about it, in ESB, he killed an admiral seemingly of the same rank as Tarkin for coming out of hyperspace early. Then he says, now ____ you're not in charge. I find it hard to believe Vader wasn't in charge in any one of those scenes. Tarkin overrode his authority and told him to stop. He stopped. Evidence. You don't get it. Tarkin wasn't the other admiral so again a shitty point that has nothing to do with Tarkin Vader's superior.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Clueless as usual Nothing you say ever makes sense and random posters always show up correcting your ignorance. It isn't just your shitty opinion you can't ascertain the facts.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Being evil is being selfish you dunce,

Order 66 went up against the Jedi order who tried to bring him in. That's called defending yourself against the Jedi council that isn't evil. The Jedi came after him to arrest him. He didn't order the issue prior to that so once again you're back to square one.

What has he done that comes close to killing a mother and father while there to murder a baby.

You are really, really, really, really stupid.

So you have no clue why the clone army was even created to begin LMAO. What an idiot.

I just told you something that poops all over it. Two things. One you have no clue and the other is much worse. He sent Anakin to kill all the "younglings" at the jedi temple. He didn't just try and kill and baby and fail... he sent Anakin to kill a whole bunch of children. Game, set match dummy

Originally posted by quanchi112
Tarkin overrode his authority and told him to stop. He stopped. Evidence. You don't get it. Tarkin wasn't the other admiral so again a shitty point that has nothing to do with Tarkin Vader's superior.

That doesn't prove anything you nitwit. Then again, it's you, and your as dumb as they come. It would be the same as a football coach (vader) trying to kick the QB off the team for being late. The team captain says no, don't do that, and the coach doesn't. That doesn't mean the team captain is above the coach, it simply means he listened. The admiral didn't want one of his staff killed, so he told him to stop, and because he does that means he's taking orders? LOL. It doesn't

As I pointed out, in ESB he killed an admiral for coming out of hyperspace early and appointed somebody else in charge. Thanks for playing kiddo

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So you have no clue why the clone army was even created to begin LMAO. What an idiot.

I just told you something that poops all over it. Two things. One you have no clue and the other is much worse. He sent Anakin to kill all the "younglings" at the jedi temple. He didn't just try and kill and baby and fail... he sent Anakin to kill a whole bunch of children. Game, set match dummy I do know since I watched the clone wars but he didn't use the tactic until they came after him. That isn't evil that's defending yourself.

The Jedi were the enemy so he was justified in a war like sense to snuff out the is happens in every war you idiot. We don't sit there and call our presidente an evil sob for this and the same goes for Palpatine.

Voldemort went after an innocent child after he butchered his mother and father. Pure evil. Palpatine went after an order opposed to him. It's pretty simple unless you're Kt and think Palpatine was aboard the Death Star giving commands in ANH.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That doesn't prove anything you nitwit. Then again, it's you, and your as dumb as they come. It would be the same as a football coach (vader) trying to kick the QB off the team for being late. The team captain says no, don't do that, and the coach doesn't. That doesn't mean the team captain is above the coach, it simply means he listened. The admiral didn't want one of his staff killed, so he told him to stop, and because he does that means he's taking orders? LOL. It doesn't

As I pointed out, in ESB he killed an admiral for coming out of hyperspace early and appointed somebody else in charge. Thanks for playing kiddo Both Vader's actions and Leia's words match that Tarkin was in charge. Nothing save your retarded mind says otherwise. You give me some convoluted answer ehich says ignore the evidence and listen to your shittty analogy about a football team.

That wasn't Tarkin so irrelevant. Tarkin told Vader what to do.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I understand your point, but I don't agree in the least. Vader was the one in command there and the one speaking directly with Palps. Think about it, in ESB, he killed an admiral seemingly of the same rank as Tarkin for coming out of hyperspace early. Then he says, now ____ you're not in charge. I find it hard to believe Vader wasn't in charge in any one of those scenes.

Tarkin was not an admiral. He was a governor/Grand Moff. When the Emperor dissolved the Imperial senate, he gave each governor full control of their territories. Among them, his favorite was Tarkin. That is why he put Tarkin in charge of the Death Star.

I provided 2 scenes where Vader was being portrayed to at least took orders from Tarkin on certain things or at least percieved by some to be of lower rank.

Another strong example would be when Tarkin warned Vader that the tracking device they put in the Mill. Falcon "better work" as he was "taking an awful risk" in letting the Falcon escape. Had Vader outranked Tarkin at that time (as with any chain of command) the risk would have been on Vader (as he was the one that suggested the method, and thus would have just given the orders, and is thus, the accountable party).

If you could provide scenes where Vader excersized his authority over Tarkin or at least was implied to be of higher rank in the DS during SW, pls provide them.

Now I'm not saying that Tarkin is Vader's commanding officer. I always saw Vader as more "outside" the chain of command and functioned at the direct command of the Emperor. But at the same time, where the DS is concerned, Tarkin appeared to have direct control given by the Emperor. That much was clear.

Words confuse Kt. Admiral or Governor it's all the same to him.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Tarkin was not an admiral. He was a governor/Grand Moff. When the Emperor dissolved the Imperial senate, he gave each governor full control of their territories. Among them, his favorite was Tarkin. That is why he put Tarkin in charge of the Death Star.

I provided 2 scenes where Vader was being portrayed to at least took orders from Tarkin on certain things or at least percieved by some to be of lower rank.

Another strong example would be when Tarkin warned Vader that the tracking device they put in the Mill. Falcon "better work" as he was "taking an awful risk" in letting the Falcon escape. Had Vader outranked Tarkin at that time (as with any chain of command) the risk would have been on Vader (as he was the one that suggested the method, and thus would have just given the orders, and is thus, the accountable party).

If you could provide scenes where Vader excersized his authority over Tarkin or at least was implied to be of higher rank in the DS during SW, pls provide them.

Now I'm not saying that Tarkin is Vader's commanding officer. I always saw Vader as more "outside" the chain of command and functioned at the direct command of the Emperor. But at the same time, where the DS is concerned, Tarkin appeared to have direct control given by the Emperor. That much was clear.

Again, look at the example I provided to QuanShe. A coach could want to fire a player, the team captain says no don't do that or you can't!!!, and the coach relents and doesn't. That doesn't mean the team captain was in control there. It means he listened to his advice, not over control. We see this all the time... somebody in control listening to somebody below them or somebody they don't have to listen to. That doesn't mean that lower person is in control.

Further, as you say, it seems clear Vader is basically speaking for the Emperor. The Emperor send him to do his bidding. Shoot, numerous times Palps tells Vader they'll rule the Galaxy together. Clearly indicating Vader is the No. 2 in command after Palps. That would override any governor or anything. Further, even when Vader shows up, Tarkin was scared of his arrival and he says "The Emperor isn't happy with your progress' I came to make sure things are back on schedule. Which essential means he's assuming command of all, or at the very least, part of what was going on there. We see this all the time in the military. Somebody assumes command of a base, that doesn't mean he gives orders on all the day to day minutia that goes on in a base. That is still up to the commanding officers at the base. However, he has assumed overall command of the base.

Shall we not also forget, Vader, in EU was called the Supreme Commander of the Imperial Navy

He used the example once again. Cringe worthy rebuttal. Repetitive, incoherence, and a poorly structured paragraph are to be expected from Kt the waste of time.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He used the example once again. Cringe worthy rebuttal. Repetitive, incoherence, and a poorly structured paragraph are to be expected from Kt the waste of time.

Hey, it's the pathetic cheerleader LOL

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Hey, it's the pathetic cheerleader LOL I responded to your shitty argument and mocked you for your hilariously stupid response to another poster. You cocmeded to me since you haven't rebutted anything.

You ALREADY conceded to me...

Come up with a more evil deed than ordering vader to go kill innocent children. That is MUCH worse than failing to kill a babe. You have no responded to that, you skipped over it because it owns your soul. You purposely ignored it. Now either come up with something or I accept your concession

I feel Voldemort is more evil. Though Palpatines evil definitely operated on a much grander scale.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You ALREADY conceded to me...

Come up with a more evil deed than ordering vader to go kill innocent children. That is MUCH worse than failing to kill a babe. You have no responded to that, you skipped over it because it owns your soul. You purposely ignored it. Now either come up with something or I accept your concession They were a part of the Jedi order who already attacked Palpatine. They were the enemies. Voldemort went after a completely innocent child who was a baby. Voldemort is more evil but attacking your enemies who attacked first isn't evil, dumbass.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They were a part of the Jedi order who already attacked Palpatine. They were the enemies. Voldemort went after a completely innocent child who was a baby. Voldemort is more evil but attacking your enemies who attacked first isn't evil, dumbass.

Palpatine saw them as a threat, and Voldemort no doubt saw Harry as a threat.

It's kind of sad that Tommy was so scared of a baby.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They were a part of the Jedi order who already attacked Palpatine. They were the enemies. Voldemort went after a completely innocent child who was a baby. Voldemort is more evil but attacking your enemies who attacked first isn't evil, dumbass.

By that same logic moron, Volde ONLY went after the baby because he was now the enemy. He was the prophecy that was going to end Volde so to speak. You're MUCH more likely to go after somebody destined to kill you than young children who may or may not try and kill you later. I accept your concession in full

Originally posted by Surtur
Palpatine saw them as a threat, and Voldemort no doubt saw Harry as a threat.

Of course, but it's quan, he's an idiot who uses double standards all the time

From what I gather, Voldemort is a racist, he has a specific reason for wanting to do what he does. Palpatine on the other hand does what he does for the pure enjoyment of it, he craves power for powers sake and that makes him more evil IMO, he is less emotional, more rational.

Palpatine is more evil. He made Darth Vader cry after finding out about the destruction of the Death Star.

3F1d3QWsyk0

Doesn't get more evil than that.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
By that same logic moron, Volde ONLY went after the baby because he was now the enemy. He was the prophecy that was going to end Volde so to speak. You're MUCH more likely to go after somebody destined to kill you than young children who may or may not try and kill you later. I accept your concession in full He was a baby who didn't attack Sir Tom. Tom will snuff out a fetus if he deems it necessary. The Jedi struck first he struck back. Did the baby throw a rattle at him or a binky ? Nah, this proves I am correct whereas you're lost as ever.

Palpatine didn't kill kids either or attempt to. Coward.

Originally posted by Surtur
Palpatine saw them as a threat, and Voldemort no doubt saw Harry as a threat. They attacked him and made themselves a threat. The same can't be said of Harry since he didn't attack Voldemort first. That's the point. Sidious knew the Jedi would oppose him but he didn't strike until they came after him. Voldemort will murder an infant. So much more evil than the reactionary known as Sheevey.

Originally posted by relentless1
From what I gather, Voldemort is a racist, he has a specific reason for wanting to do what he does. Palpatine on the other hand does what he does for the pure enjoyment of it, he craves power for powers sake and that makes him more evil IMO, he is less emotional, more rational. Palpatine doesn't even see himself as evil and wouldn't just murder someone because he's pissed. Voldemort scared the **** out of his own followers and they didn't know what he would do the same can't be said of pansy ass Palpatine. Palpatine would be fearful of direct eye contact with the true dark lord.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again, look at the example I provided to QuanShe. A coach could want to fire a player, the team captain says no don't do that or you can't!!!, and the coach relents and doesn't. That doesn't mean the team captain was in control there. It means he listened to his advice, not over control. We see this all the time... somebody in control listening to somebody below them or somebody they don't have to listen to. That doesn't mean that lower person is in control.

Further, as you say, it seems clear Vader is basically speaking for the Emperor. The Emperor send him to do his bidding. Shoot, numerous times Palps tells Vader they'll rule the Galaxy together. Clearly indicating Vader is the No. 2 in command after Palps. That would override any governor or anything. Further, even when Vader shows up, Tarkin was scared of his arrival and he says "The Emperor isn't happy with your progress' I came to make sure things are back on schedule. Which essential means he's assuming command of all, or at the very least, part of what was going on there. We see this all the time in the military. Somebody assumes command of a base, that doesn't mean he gives orders on all the day to day minutia that goes on in a base. That is still up to the commanding officers at the base. However, he has assumed overall command of the base.

Shall we not also forget, Vader, in EU was called the Supreme Commander of the Imperial Navy

That wasn't about firing a player. It was about admonishing/punishing another officer for talking shit. If you think Vader would let someone, anyone, of less authority speak to him like that (while he is punishing another officer talking shit), in front of all the other officers, then he fails at his role of enforcer or Sith Lord.

No, that's not assuming command. At all. In fact, it further proves my assertion of Vader's capacity.

When an auditor or an efficiency consultant is sent to make sure that operations be put back on track, they do not assume command direct command. I know, I've actually hired ppl to do that. They may send reports directly to the CEO/Chairman or they tend to function within a consultative capacity with the supervisors/managers but they do not assume direct command. At best that is what Vader did. At worst, he was sent mainly for Tarkin to use as a tool for intimidation over the other officers.

Throughout the entire movie, Vader was never shown to have any authority over Tarkin. If you have an example where it is even implied that he -exerciized- some authority, go ahead and post it. But that is never demonstrated. Not once (unless you can provide evidence). It was Tarkin's orders that doomed Alderaan, his orders to double cross the Princess, his orders to "fire (the Death Star) when ready". Vader stood just stood there.

So your basis of Vader having higher authority is predicated on him being Palpy's apprentice. And that's it.

But let's be honest here, we both know you'd never change your stance regardless of the evidence proviced. And we are derailing the thread.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Of course, but it's quan, he's an idiot who uses double standards all the time False as their perceptions aren't the issue. The issue is clear Voldemort goes after his threats without mercy whereas Palpatine waited to go after the Jedi after they attempted to arrest him. Clearly different and no double standard that's just your limited intellect rearing its microscopic head to try and understand.

lol at palpatine being scared of a guy that looks like a used condom

Originally posted by relentless1
lol at palpatine being scared of a guy that looks like a used condom Voldemort is the guy who kills without mercy not the burn victim who was picked on by Windu. As I said Voldemort is more powerful, more evil, and better looking than Sheev.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

The way I see it. What determines what is evil is determined by the subjective understanding/metrics of morality determined by the society(s) at large. What is evil for some may well not be evil for others.

He may be seeking justice/revenge for what the Jedi did to the Sith in the past (as what Maul said) as well as end their (to the Sith) tyranny.

And as the Jedi seek the annihilation of the Sith, he may well be protecting his kind from total genocide. As well as purge the corruption of the galactic senate.

As like Anakin said, from another's point of view, the jedi are evil.

His methods might be vile (to us). But to the Sith, there may well be some nobility with what he is doing (as it seems like they function within the concept that the ends do justify the means)

That is my take anyway.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

The way I see it. What determines what is evil is determined by the subjective understanding/metrics of morality determined by the society(s) at large. What is evil for some may well not be evil for others.

He may be seeking justice/revenge for what the Jedi did to the Sith in the past (as what Maul said) as well as end their (to the Sith) tyranny.

And as the Jedi seek the annihilation of the Sith, he may well be protecting his kind from total genocide. As well as purge the corruption of the galactic senate.

As like Anakin said, from another's point of view, the jedi are evil.

His methods might be vile (to us). But to the Sith, there may well be some nobility with what he is doing (as it seems like they function within the concept that the ends do justify the means)

That is my take anyway. Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, your definition is supported by my own. I am using Palpatine's own words with how he regards evil as a point of view. He doesn't view himself as evil. Let's hear these feats of him being evil. What has he done that can eclipse killing a mother and father to going after a baby ?

Let's go, nerd. I'll destroy you even according to your retarded logic. Nib and myself once again conquer the retarded such as Kt. Run Kt because my reasoning is sound unlike your gibberish.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
That wasn't about firing a player. It was about admonishing/punishing another officer for talking shit. If you think Vader would let someone, anyone, of less authority speak to him like that (while he is punishing another officer talking shit), in front of all the other officers, then he fails at his role of enforcer or Sith Lord.

No, that's not assuming command. At all. In fact, it further proves my assertion of Vader's capacity.

When an auditor or an efficiency consultant is sent to make sure that operations be put back on track, they do not assume command direct command. I know, I've actually hired ppl to do that. They may send reports directly to the CEO/Chairman or they tend to function within a consultative capacity with the supervisors/managers but they do not assume direct command. At best that is what Vader did. At worst, he was sent mainly for Tarkin to use as a tool for intimidation over the other officers.

Throughout the entire movie, Vader was never shown to have any authority over Tarkin. If you have an example where it is even implied that he -exerciized- some authority, go ahead and post it. But that is never demonstrated. Not once (unless you can provide evidence). It was Tarkin's orders that doomed Alderaan, his orders to double cross the Princess, his orders to "fire (the Death Star) when ready". Vader stood just stood there.

So your basis of Vader having higher authority is predicated on him being Palpy's apprentice. And that's it.

But let's be honest here, we both know you'd never change your stance regardless of the evidence proviced. And we are derailing the thread.

I see, more talking crap at the end, nice. Let me guess, when I return the favor in kind, you'll whine like a little girl again... AMIRITE? Or better yet, you'll put out random numbers out of your ass while employing double standards the whole time. Sound about right. You just couldn't resist, and now we are where we are kiddo.

Again, in the movies and in the books, Palps says numerous times that they will rule the galaxy together. In that model, Vader is unquestionably no. 2 in overall command of the Galaxy. That is above any governor of a particular sector of the galaxy. I thought this was painfully obvious, but clearly the obvious eludes you. Further, and this is also without question, Vader has the ear or was the ear of the most powerful person in the galaxy. So again, by proxy, that is a higher position and authority that Tarkin. To think otherwise is blatantly false. That IS the proof.

Further, I reject your notion that it is like bringing a consultant in.. that wasn't what occurred there. If the president (or sends the vice president) comes to a big city to deal with a crisis at hand, that doesn't mean he assumes full control of the day to day activities of the city. He doesn't start to draft and sign letter the governor used to do. No, the governor still does that, he's still responsible for the day to day running of the city. Make no mistake though, The President is of higher authority in that room. Further, the only proof you have of Tarkin being in command is a scene where he ask Vader to release him. What you fail to realize is, that isn't proof. Him simply listening to somebody doesn't mean they are in command. My player coach example shows this. If the President listens to the secretary of state about foreign affairs, does that mean he's above the president? Of course not, that would be ludicrous. All that scene showed was that Tarkin didn't want vader going around killing his officers, he needs them to get the jobs done. By no means can one say that if somebody listens to another, that other person is in charge. They could be, doesn't mean it always that way.

To further the point about who had Palps ear (who was the most powerful person in the galaxy) and thus has the most power after him. Nobody on the Death Star even knew the Emperor was coming. The simple reality is this, if Vader gave an order (which would be taken as an order from the emperor) Tarkin would carry out said order. That is the simple reality of what we are talking about here.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
That wasn't about firing a player. It was about admonishing/punishing another officer for talking shit. If you think Vader would let someone, anyone, of less authority speak to him like that (while he is punishing another officer talking shit), in front of all the other officers, then he fails at his role of enforcer or Sith Lord.

No, that's not assuming command. At all. In fact, it further proves my assertion of Vader's capacity.

When an auditor or an efficiency consultant is sent to make sure that operations be put back on track, they do not assume command direct command. I know, I've actually hired ppl to do that. They may send reports directly to the CEO/Chairman or they tend to function within a consultative capacity with the supervisors/managers but they do not assume direct command. At best that is what Vader did. At worst, he was sent mainly for Tarkin to use as a tool for intimidation over the other officers.

Throughout the entire movie, Vader was never shown to have any authority over Tarkin. If you have an example where it is even implied that he -exerciized- some authority, go ahead and post it. But that is never demonstrated. Not once (unless you can provide evidence). It was Tarkin's orders that doomed Alderaan, his orders to double cross the Princess, his orders to "fire (the Death Star) when ready". Vader stood just stood there.

So your basis of Vader having higher authority is predicated on him being Palpy's apprentice. And that's it.

But let's be honest here, we both know you'd never change your stance regardless of the evidence proviced. And we are derailing the thread. It cuts like a knife but it feels so right. Kt is a waste of time.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He was a baby who didn't attack Sir Tom. Tom will snuff out a fetus if he deems it necessary. The Jedi struck first he struck back. Did the baby throw a rattle at him or a binky ? Nah, this proves I am correct whereas you're lost as ever.

Palpatine didn't kill kids either or attempt to. Coward.

Another moronic post from the moron. It had NOTHING to do with them attacking him first you dimwit. They are in a constant feud lastly thousands of years. Of course they attacked him, just as the sith have tried to eliminate the Jedi. This is nothing you. You act like he was cool with the Jedi, and then they betrayed him, and thus he ordered the killing. Totally false, he plan the ENTIRE time was to kill the Jedi. That is why you should never talk about things you don't know. The clone army was created under the orders of Palps so that he could use them to kill the Jedi and rule the galaxy. This was before they went to arrest him. That was always his plan.

In stark contrast, Harry was destined to destroy Volde, so of course you'd go after him.. as a baby or a young adult. That is painfully obvious. The those little Jedi's were destined or prophesized to kill the emperor. Yet he still order them all massacred. You lose, I accept your concession in full.

Ordering the massacre of young jedi is vastly worse than trying to kill a baby (and FAILING) who was prophesized to kill you. What's worse he didn't even commit the act. He failed, which automatically reduces the dramatic effect here. You're bad at this.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Nib and myself once again conquer the retarded such as Kt. Run Kt because my reasoning is sound unlike your gibberish.

Bwahaha he didn't even agree with you Quanshoes LOL

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I see, more talking crap at the end, nice. Let me guess, when I return the favor in kind, you'll whine like a little girl again... AMIRITE? Or better yet, you'll put out random numbers out of your ass while employing double standards the whole time. Sound about right. You just couldn't resist, and now we are where we are kiddo.

Again, in the movies and in the books, Palps says numerous times that they will rule the galaxy together. In that model, Vader is unquestionably no. 2 in overall command of the Galaxy. That is above any governor of a particular sector of the galaxy. I thought this was painfully obvious, but clearly the obvious eludes you. Further, and this is also without question, Vader has the ear or was the ear of the most powerful person in the galaxy. So again, by proxy, that is a higher position and authority that Tarkin. To think otherwise is blatantly false. That IS the proof.

Further, I reject your notion that it is like bringing a consultant in.. that wasn't what occurred there. If the president (or sends the vice president) comes to a big city to deal with a crisis at hand, that doesn't mean he assumes full control of the day to day activities of the city. He doesn't start to draft and sign letter the governor used to do. No, the governor still does that, he's still responsible for the day to day running of the city. Make no mistake though, The President is of higher authority in that room. Further, the only proof you have of Tarkin being in command is a scene where he ask Vader to release him. What you fail to realize is, that isn't proof. Him simply listening to somebody doesn't mean they are in command. My player coach example shows this. If the President listens to the secretary of state about foreign affairs, does that mean he's above the president? Of course not, that would be ludicrous. All that scene showed was that Tarkin didn't want vader going around killing his officers, he needs them to get the jobs done. By no means can one say that if somebody listens to another, thant other person is in charge. They could be, doesn't mean it always that way.

To further the point about who had Palps ear (who was the most powerful person in the galaxy) and thus has the most power after him. Nobody on the Death Star even knew the Emperor was coming. The simple reality is this, if Vader gave an order (which would be taken as an order from the emperor) Tarkin would carry out said order. That is the simple reality of what we are talking about here.

Dude. When I say "you'll never change your stance...", I am not trying to insult you. It is a reality check for both of us. We have argued for pages and pages, and at the end of the day, it never mattered what evidence I bring forward or what argument I give, you'll always not accept it. I mean, am I wrong in this assumption? Have you ever accepted any opposing debator's logic? If so, pls link so I can understand what it would take so I can be sure to go that direction for future debates. Anyway, at this point, we are derailing the thread so we should move forward from this.

I can undertand that this may sound insulting (and I apologize if it does), but I personally don't know any other way of stating it (if you have a better way of saying it, let me know and I'll be sure to use that method in the future). Again, I apologize if that can be seen as offensive. Reality checks often are.

Anyway, this will be the last thing I will say about this:

I have experience running an organization, large organizations do not usually follow a simplistic top-to-bottom heirarchy, there are positions outside the pyramid and there are departments that do not share authority/control amongst its officers and staff. In those organizations there are positions that do not have any direct control of any departments but reports directly to top management (auditors are an example of this). IMO, Vader's displayed capacity fits into this criteria.

Just because he is Palp's apprentice, however, doesn't make him the best person for the job of command and running the Death Star or the fleet. Tarkin's job and position could very well be based on his qualifications.

And Presidental Advisors have the ear of the most powerful man in a country but they do not suddenly have direct authority over the military. Having "someone's ear" does not translate to direct authority. Just influence.

There are those who opt to take a more permissive leadership style who would allow for decisions such as punishment and dismissal to be questioned. Such as your coach example. But I was not under the impression that Vader practiced that kind of leadership style.

And if you think that someone who practices a tyranical style of leadership (who has the power to just choke you for talking crap) would allow someone (a skinmy old man at that) of lower rank to undermine his authority WHILE he is punishing a publicly disrespectful, insulting subordinate in front of the other officers within a military organization, then there is really nothing left to discuss. As anybody who has ever been put in any position of authority, that is one of the biggest bitchslaps you can possibly give to someone of authority.

So either Vader recognizes Tarkin's authority over him on the Death Star or he is the biggest b!tch/cuckold Sith Lord in the Star Wars universe. You decide. It's can only be one or the other. And if it's the latter, then "authority" is irrelevant.

I mean, you are arguing leadership/management style/logic with someone who graduated top honors in Management (and Marketing) and has almost 15 years (plus a few more consultative) within a corporate environment in an executive position. If there was ever anything I feel confident in discussing in these forums, it is management/leadership styles (and marketing, but eh).

Bottom line, and back to our original discussion: on-screen: it was Tarkin who gave the order for the destruction of Alderaan. It was Tarkin who Leiea recognized as the one double crossing her.

Burder of proof is on you to prove that he was acting under direct orders from Vader as we saw Vader giving NO orders for him to do any of the above. Unless you are able to give any evidence to contradict the above paragraph's FACTS, then the details in the above paragraph are pretty much indisputable.

Now go on ahead and get the last word if you want. But I'll not derail this thread any longer. I'll let the rest of the forum decide on whose logic is best at this point.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Another moronic post from the moron. It had NOTHING to do with them attacking him first you dimwit. They are in a constant feud lastly thousands of years. Of course they attacked him, just as the sith have tried to eliminate the Jedi. This is nothing you. You act like he was cool with the Jedi, and then they betrayed him, and thus he ordered the killing. Totally false, he plan the ENTIRE time was to kill the Jedi. That is why you should never talk about things you don't know. The clone army was created under the orders of Palps so that he could use them to kill the Jedi and rule the galaxy. This was before they went to arrest him. That was always his plan.

In stark contrast, Harry was destined to destroy Volde, so of course you'd go after him.. as a baby or a young adult. That is painfully obvious. The those little Jedi's were destined or prophesized to kill the emperor. Yet he still order them all massacred. You lose, I accept your concession in full.

Ordering the massacre of young jedi is vastly worse than trying to kill a baby (and FAILING) who was prophesized to kill you. What's worse he didn't even commit the act. He failed, which automatically reduces the dramatic effect here. You're bad at this. So Sidious trying to kill a known enemy of his is not evil it's to be expected. You just eradicated your own point. You're too stupid to realize it. Sidious opposing the other faction isn't evil it's the same as it has always been.

Again that isn't the point most wouldn't steamroll through someone prophesied in that manner in which he did. Anakin was prophesied to bring balance to the force yet Sidious chose to make him his apprentice. What an ironically stupid move from a guy not evil even according to his own pov. Trying to kill a baby is evil. Palpatine didn't try to kill Anakin he tried to guide him which in the end was both stupid and cost him his life.

You yourself said the Jedi and Sith kill each other so this isn't anything new. What babies did Anakin kill at the temple ? Sidious didn't even try to kill the one guy who ended up bringing balance to the force. He wouldn't try to kill Harry Palpatine would probably try to Esau cairn it. Raise another's child as his own.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Bwahaha he didn't even agree with you Quanshoes LOL He brought up as I said Palpatine doesn't see himself as evil but a differing pov. I cited this pages ago and he agrees. You on the other hand think attacking an enemy is evil. You're retarded.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So Sidious trying to kill a known enemy of his is not evil it's to be expected. You just eradicated your own point. You're too stupid to realize it. Sidious opposing the other faction isn't evil it's the same as it has always been.

Again that isn't the point most wouldn't steamroll through someone prophesied in that manner in which he did. Anakin was prophesied to bring balance to the force yet Sidious chose to make him his apprentice. What an ironically stupid move from a guy not evil even according to his own pov. Trying to kill a baby is evil. Palpatine didn't try to kill Anakin he tried to guide him which in the end was both stupid and cost him his life.

You yourself said the Jedi and Sith kill each other so this isn't anything new. What babies did Anakin kill at the temple ? Sidious didn't even try to kill the one guy who ended up bringing balance to the force. He wouldn't try to kill Harry Palpatine would probably try to Esau cairn it. Raise another's child as his own.



What sort of rambling nonsense is this? You literally didn't make a single point here. Not one you dimwit. You can never be considered the most evil, when you try and kill somebody and fail. There is no dramatic affect there Quanshoes. He failed, like he did everything else.

Him ordering Vader to kill younglings and massacre them is VASTLY worse, than failing to kill a baby destined to kill you. Those younglings weren't prophesized to kill Sids, or anything of the like. Harry was, so of course Volde would go after him. That is common sense. That doesn't make him evil, it just made him a failure.

Either come up with something worse or I accept your concession .

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Dude. When I say "you'll never change your stance...", I am not trying to insult you. It is a reality check for both of us. We have argued for pages and pages, and at the end of the day, it never mattered what evidence I bring forward or what argument I give, you'll always not accept it. I mean, am I wrong in this assumption? Have you ever accepted any opposing debator's logic? If so, pls link so I can understand what it would take so I can be sure to go that direction for future debates. Anyway, at this point, we are derailing the thread so we should move forward from this.

I can undertand that this may sound insulting (and I apologize if it does), but I personally don't know any other way of stating it (if you have a better way of saying it, let me know and I'll be sure to use that method in the future). Again, I apologize if that can be seen as offensive. Reality checks often are.

Anyway, this will be the last thing I will say about this:

I have experience running an organization, large organizations do not usually follow a simplistic top-to-bottom heirarchy, there are positions outside the pyramid and there are departments that do not share authority/control amongst its officers and staff. In those organizations there are positions that do not have any direct control of any departments but reports directly to top management (auditors are an example of this). IMO, Vader's displayed capacity fits into this criteria.

Just because he is Palp's apprentice, however, doesn't make him the best person for the job of command and running the Death Star or the fleet. Tarkin's job and position could very well be based on his qualifications.

And Presidental Advisors have the ear of the most powerful man in a country but they do not suddenly have direct authority over the military. Having "someone's ear" does not translate to direct authority. Just influence.

There are those who opt to take a more permissive leadership style who would allow for decisions such as punishment and dismissal to be questioned. Such as your coach example. But I was not under the impression that Vader practiced that kind of leadership style.

And if you think that someone who practices a tyranical style of leadership (who has the power to just choke you for talking crap) would allow someone (a skinmy old man at that) of lower rank to undermine his authority WHILE he is punishing a publicly disrespectful, insulting subordinate in front of the other officers within a military organization, then there is really nothing left to discuss. As anybody who has ever been put in any position of authority, that is one of the biggest bitchslaps you can possibly give to someone of authority.

So either Vader recognizes Tarkin's authority over him on the Death Star or he is the biggest b!tch/cuckold Sith Lord in the Star Wars universe. You decide. It's can only be one or the other. And if it's the latter, then "authority" is irrelevant.

I mean, you are arguing leadership/management style/logic with someone who graduated top honors in Management (and Marketing) and has almost 15 years (plus a few more consultative) within a corporate environment in an executive position. If there was ever anything I feel confident in discussing in these forums, it is management/leadership styles (and marketing, but eh).

Bottom line, and back to our original discussion: on-screen: it was Tarkin who gave the order for the destruction of Alderaan. It was Tarkin who Leiea recognized as the one double crossing her.

Burder of proof is on you to prove that he was acting under direct orders from Vader as we saw Vader giving NO orders for him to do any of the above. Unless you are able to give any evidence to contradict the above paragraph's FACTS, then the details in the above paragraph are pretty much indisputable.

Now go on ahead and get the last word if you want. But I'll not derail this thread any longer. I'll let the rest of the forum decide on whose logic is best at this point.

First, stop trying to sugarcoat what you said and act like it wasn't the least bit insulting. It was, and you know it. It certainly wasn't a compliment by any means. Which is my point, you'll sit her and complain about me insulting you, and then turn around and insult me; but somehow yours was okay because you didn't think it was bad? Okay. Using that criteria, I'll just go ahead and say nothing I said was bad. I don't think you'd agree, yet somehow I'm suppose to accept that as a compliment?

Second, on numerous occasions, even with you, I've conceded points. So to hear you say that I've never admitted something or conceded something is a bold face lie. I'm not going to participate in trying to prove a negative here. It's happened, and many times. Obviously it hasn't happened many times as well, that is the whole point of debating, but it certainly has occurred.

Third, no, you haven't brought forth any proof and the examples I gave are not false. You say you've been deeply involved in various aspects of management and consulting. If true, then you would know each and every example I gave were sound and logical. Not only sound and logical, but factual, those things can and do occur. I'm not saying it proves anything, because it doesn't, but they are certainly possible explanation of what could be going on there besides Vader being below him. Or are you taking the stance of none of the examples I gave are possible?

Fourth, and you have yet to get around this fact, in canon sids has stated, numerous times, that they will rule the galaxy together This is a canon fact. Vastly more canon than ANY example you've put forth that Tarkin was in charge of Vader. Every example you've given can be viewed another way as well. What can't be viewed another way is that Vader was second only to Palps when it came to ruling a Galaxy. Last time I checked, a planet or death star is within a galaxy, and thus under that same overall control. Now, either bring forth evidence that Palps was lying when he made those statements or you'll need to accept them as facts. Once that occurs, there is no way a governor is above the second in command of the Galaxy. NO way no how in no organization chart can that exist.

You seem to be conflating two separate ideas that have nothing to do with one another. Just because Vader listened to Tarkin, doesn't mean Tarkin was in charge. I've cited numerous examples of how this is blatantly false. Obviously it can mean that, but not in all situations, and that certainly can't be categorized as fallible proof. Vader is no idiot, he knows Sids placed Tarkin there for a reason. He's a trusted commander of a particular sector. Vader can't just go around killing people whenever he pleases. He still has to respect that Tarkin was placed in that position, and had been doing a good job throughout the clone wars and even 18 years later till the death star. He had been acting in various roles for the Emperor. He was trusted. Vader isn't going to run the day to day operations of things, Tarkin does, so if Tarkin says no I need that guy, stop killing my officer, that doesn't mean he was in charge. It means Vader showed restraint and said okay.

There are NUMEROUS examples of Vader speaking directly with Sids and taking orders from him to execute certain things. Even when it came to the death star. I never saw, not one conversation between Tarkin and the Emperor like we see with Vader. Which again, illustrates the above, vader was second in command in ruling the galaxy. That doesn't mean he acts as governor of this planet or that planet. Of course there need to people in place to handle their affairs throughout the galaxy. Nobody says otherwise. That doesn't mean those people are above vader in overall power or command.

All that said, I understand your argument, and I don't think it's totally lacking in merit. I understand your point, but those same situations you say mean A... then could also mean B just the same. Which is my point here.

Again, I disagree with your logic, reasoning and your conclusion. Admittedly, there are some points you made that I can agree with. But at the same time, there are just too many errors in logic and I feel like that this will go on for pages and pages of useless derailing discussion. I already said that I will no longer derail this thread as we'll likely kill it and I am interested in hearing what ppl have to say.

This seems like a solid topic we can BZ, in all honesty, I would actually put my odds here at 70-30. Unlike a BZ with h1, this might actually be fun rather than annoying. What do you say?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What sort of rambling nonsense is this? You literally didn't make a single point here. Not one you dimwit. You can never be considered the most evil, when you try and kill somebody and fail. There is no dramatic affect there Quanshoes. He failed, like he did everything else.

Him ordering Vader to kill younglings and massacre them is VASTLY worse, than failing to kill a baby destined to kill you. Those younglings weren't prophesized to kill Sids, or anything of the like. Harry was, so of course Volde would go after him. That is common sense. That doesn't make him evil, it just made him a failure.

Either come up with something worse or I accept your concession . This isn't how a competent debater debates. You have to be contested or specific. It is about the intent not the numbers. That's the point. He used the kill curse but the mother gave her life to protect the child.

No, since they were the enemy who already came after him and were opposed to the Sith as you said. Also Palpatine didn't do so Vader carried out the deed. You earlier tried lying about Tarkin's actions somehow transferring to Palpatine as well. What has Palpatine done specifically ?

Palaptine didn't kill the guy prophesied to bring balance to the force. Palpatine died to the guy prophesied as well but what's worse he didn't even attempt to kill Vader.


You're too stupid to actually refute or understand a point. I can't wait to hear you back down to Nib's battlezone offer you piece of long faced shit.

What exactly would we be BZing? lol. I mean, I certainly wouldn't view this as a solid topic to debate, when I'm not even sure what we'd be BZing. Who was in command there? That seems like a very subjective argument to have as we've seen. Not only is there is a significant lack of proof either way, what we do have, can be interrupted many ways. I'm just not seeing this as the solid topic you seem to. That said, we've also been talking in the WS vs. Ozy thread throughout many months. I've you like to do a BZ on that topic, we can certainly get there. I'm just not seeing it here. That said, if you have time, I would like to see you tell me where my logical errors occurred. You said you don't want to derail this thread anymore, and I can respect that, so if you have time just give me a quick synopsis of "too many" logical errors.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What exactly would we be BZing? lol. I mean, I certainly wouldn't view this as a solid topic to debate, when I'm not even sure what we'd be BZing. Who was in command there? That seems like a very subjective argument to have as we've seen. Not only is there is a significant lack of proof either way, what we do have, can be interrupted many ways. I'm just not seeing this as the solid topic you seem to. That said, we've also been talking in the WS vs. Ozy thread throughout many months. I've you like to do a BZ on that topic, we can certainly get there. I'm just not seeing it here. That said, if you have time, I would like to see you tell me where my logical errors occurred. You said you don't want to derail this thread anymore, and I can respect that, so if you have time just give me a quick synopsis of "too many" logical errors.

The BZ would be if Vader had any direct authority over Tarkin as of SW Ep. 4. Seems simple enough.

BZ is not about absolute proof. As no such absolute proof exists. It's about who can prove their case better by presenting better arguments/proof. It's not for anything than fun in this case. As I know my position isn't 100% solid either (although I do believe that the evidence far more supports it).

Fair enough. Gonna turn in, but I can just PM tommorrow if that would be better.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What exactly would we be BZing? lol. I mean, I certainly wouldn't view this as a solid topic to debate, when I'm not even sure what we'd be BZing. Who was in command there? That seems like a very subjective argument to have as we've seen. Not only is there is a significant lack of proof either way, what we do have, can be interrupted many ways. I'm just not seeing this as the solid topic you seem to. That said, we've also been talking in the WS vs. Ozy thread throughout many months. I've you like to do a BZ on that topic, we can certainly get there. I'm just not seeing it here. That said, if you have time, I would like to see you tell me where my logical errors occurred. You said you don't want to derail this thread anymore, and I can respect that, so if you have time just give me a quick synopsis of "too many" logical errors. Accept his challenge and show you're confident in your position you will argue your case before judges. I guarantee you'll tuck tail and run as per your entire life just like Robtard. You have no balls and won't accept because you're somewhat aware you're not smart. At all. Man up.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They attacked him and made themselves a threat. The same can't be said of Harry since he didn't attack Voldemort first. That's the point. Sidious knew the Jedi would oppose him but he didn't strike until they came after him. Voldemort will murder an infant. So much more evil than the reactionary known as Sheevey.

Okay man but you seem to think that it's somehow less shady because Sidious was able to foresee that if he was corrupt and evil and tried to take over the galaxy..that the jedi would try to stop him?

Of course he knew the jedi would oppose him..he's literally a sith lord. It's not hard to know they would perhaps have an issue with him being evil and stuff.

You are acting like it was the jedi that created this entire situation and Sidious was just reacting to it. The jedi certainly behaved very very stupidly, almost to a point that defies comprehension, but they didn't actually create the situation.

Originally posted by Surtur
Okay man but you seem to think that it's somehow less shady because Sidious was able to foresee that if he was corrupt and evil and tried to take over the galaxy..that the jedi would try to stop him?

Of course he knew the jedi would oppose him..he's literally a sith lord. It's not hard to know they would perhaps have an issue with him being evil and stuff.

You are acting like it was the jedi that created this entire situation and Sidious was just reacting to it. The jedi certainly behaved very very stupidly, almost to a point that defies comprehension, but they didn't actually create the situation. The Jedi naturally oppose the Sith so they have always killed each other. That isn't evil that's defending yourself against a century or possible millennia long war.

It's a pov. That's how he sees himself. The Jedi aren't perfect beings and both had their own reasoning as to why they did what they did.

The Jedi tried to kill him. He defended himself and counter attacked. That isn't evil at all. Voldemort going after a baby after slaughtering his parents is evil. Nothing Sidious has done on screen remotely compares to this. Voldemort is a lot more evil than Palpatine and by feats it just isn't close. Blame Kt for making it about the feats.

While I know this is off topic, allow me to cast a little light on the relationship in the Star Wars Universe (including other material) between Tarkin and Vader.

From the Star Wars Poster Monthly (november 2007):

"Obviously Tarkin believes that he has Vader under control and for a while Vader is happy to let him live with that illusion. However, the Dark Lord has greater plans than defeat of the Rebels and suffers Tarkin as yet another pawn in a much larger gameplan."

From The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader - the Motti choking scene:

Although Vader answered only to the Emperor, it was the Emperor's command that he serve Tarkin on the Death Star.

From the Death Star novel: A scene just before the movie starts - in which Tarkin is musing:

Vader, unfortunately, was beyond Tarkin's command, even though, as the first of the new Grand Moffs, he was a man whose whim was law law in the entire Outer Rim Territories. It was true that Vader's own manner of function was essentially the same philosophy as the Tarkin Doctrine, albeit on a smaller scale; still, it was ... disquieting ... to see the man cause an admiral or general across the room to fall over with a mere gesture as if shot.

Vader's musing before arriving

There had been, however, setbacks - accidents, sabotage, delays - and these were troubling to the Emperor. And so Palpatine had sent Vader to once again convey his displeasure at these setbacks to Tarkin's pet project, and to suggest - strongly - that the Grand Moff find ways to avoid them in the future.
Tarkin was no fool. He would understand the message: Fail, and suffer the consequences.

From Death Star Owner's Workshop Manual, General Tagges Personal Data Journal entry 49:

Two significant portions of the Death Star complement will not fall under the normal command structure, but are worth noting. The first is the Emperor's emissary, Darth Vader, who will answer to Grand Moff Tarkin, and will not be subject to any other authority aboard the Death Star. Second, the Imperial stormtroopers. Both the Army and Navy may call on the services of the stormtroopers, but with the firm understanding that these soldiers fall under the jurisdiction of neither, and that their loyalty is to the Emperor alone.

But in the end, who the hell knows what George Lucas was thinking when he made ANH.

Thanks Utriga.



That is mostly consistent with my understanding of the relationship between Vader and Tarkin as well.

So, based on that, Vader officially under Tarkin's command (as per the Emperor's will) but at the same time, he served a higher secondary purpose in making sure the emperor's will is carried out. It also looks like Tarkin understood that he only had a fragile hold on Vader.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

The way I see it. What determines what is evil is determined by the subjective understanding/metrics of morality determined by the society(s) at large. What is evil for some may well not be evil for others.

He may be seeking justice/revenge for what the Jedi did to the Sith in the past (as what Maul said) as well as end their (to the Sith) tyranny.

And as the Jedi seek the annihilation of the Sith, he may well be protecting his kind from total genocide. As well as purge the corruption of the galactic senate.

As like Anakin said, from another's point of view, the jedi are evil.

His methods might be vile (to us). But to the Sith, there may well be some nobility with what he is doing (as it seems like they function within the concept that the ends do justify the means)

That is my take anyway.



Ah but those can be the most dangerous and most evil villains. The ones who've convinced themselves that they're in the right, and that the ends justify the means. Because they have that level of conviction to their evil.

Take ISIS for example who fit that model perfectly, and are considered by many to be the most evil force in our world today.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ah but those can be the most dangerous and most evil villains. The ones who've convinced themselves that they're in the right, and that the ends justify the means. Because they have that level of conviction to their evil.

Take ISIS for example who fit that model perfectly, and are considered by many to be the most evil force in our world today. What dictator believes they are wrong ? Seriously. Sidious isn't as evil as Voldemort not do his feats support this or his portrayals.

As for the Tarkin vs Vader hierarchy battle I'd go with this:




Originally posted by Beniboybling
On the Death Star, Tarkin, but Vader was beyond the Imperial hierarchy.



Quoted from here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16019292#post16019292

So what we saw in the film is Tarkin told that ***** Vader to do he did. Poor Vader.

I feel like Vader just allowed Tarkin to kind of boss him around. He knew it'd be funnier that way once he invisibly squeezes the life out of him.

It's part of the reason he hates the rebels, they killed Tarkin and took that chance away from him.

Just imagine that smug face gasping for air, holding his neck to try to stop it but ha! There are no actual fingers to pry off your throat, just psychic powers.

I personally don't think Vader had any issue with Tarkin. Just as long as he understood that if Palpatine dies it's Vader whose taking over.

When you think about it the SWU owes a huge debt of gratitude to Padme's vagina. Just imagine if Sidious had gotten a hold of a non-pussy whipped Anakin?

Is Sidious enslaving planets and feeding off their pain canon? If not then I'd have to say Vold is more evil

Originally posted by juggerman
Is Sidious enslaving planets and feeding off their pain canon? If not then I'd have to say Vold is more evil

Just feels like you're judging Sidious for trying to bring stability to countless worlds.

If people are feeling pain and you can feed off pain well..why not? Why waste resources?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Accept his challenge and show you're confident in your position you will argue your case before judges. I guarantee you'll tuck tail and run as per your entire life just like Robtard. You have no balls and won't accept because you're somewhat aware you're not smart. At all. Man up.

Quanshoes, pipe down and let the big boys talk here. We don't need advice from backdown(112 times), nor somebody that has never won a BZ he's participated in lol. That isn't a solid subject to BZ at all, not even close. I stated what a better one would be backdown112. I love the cheerleading though LOL