Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Fight takes place in Times Square, New York.

Any opinions on this one?

This is a tough one for Cap. I say team with a slight majority.

I been trying to come up with a good challenge for Steve, and it's not easy all the time. But he could take them at the same time. He just has to divide and Conquer. Which I've seem him do many times against others (Cap vs. Beast and Ice-Man is one of my favorite group battles).

Green Arrow should be able to mix it up with some of those trick arrows of his. Wildcat will be doing more of the up close fighting for sure, and will give Steve a pretty good fight in h2h. Steve would still take Wildcat in any long drawn out fight lasting near an hour without rest. But with Green Arrow there it wouldn't be easy.

For goodness sake.......somebody close this.

Team 10/10

Team wins. All Ted has to do is hang with Steve and help Ollie line up a shot. Steve puts up a phenomenal effort, though.

GA will be getting a crap load of trick arrows.

Steve isnt winning this unless he lucks out and knocks Ollie out with his shield fairly quick or something.

Steve could distract them and keep them off guard with a shield toss; leaving either one of them open for an attack. Steve is too fast for AC and fast enough to engage both of them this way. Steve will dodge most if not all of AC's arrows. And can put him down easy enough to deal with WC at the end. That's kinda how I see it.

What about the trick arrows? He can't dodge that.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
What about the trick arrows? He can't dodge that.

Not all of them, but he will dodge most. The trick arrows that contain nets will be tricky. But Cap has the strength to rip right out of those.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Not all of them, but he will dodge most. The trick arrows that contain nets will be tricky. But Cap has the strength to rip right out of those.

Even so he would be a sitting duck for a few moments.

Originally posted by h1a8
Even so he would be a sitting duck for a few moments.

Not for long.. Faster reaction time, and thinking; Cap will assess the best possible method of attack as he engages them. It would be all too clear to see that GA is the only one armed and should be handled first. And Cap moves too fast for GA to tag with an arrow before Cap gets in close for the take down and is right back into the fight against WC.

Cap is not going to simply evade everything GA throws at him n just quickly KO him, then finish off Ted. Either one of these guys can give cap a good fight. Hes not taking them both. Take into account all that these characters have been capable of in the past, not just cap. Cap takes this 1 outta 1000 times if he gets a lucky shot or two. Any higher estimation implies a underestimation of this teams formiddability.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Cap is not going to simply evade everything GA throws at him n just quickly KO him, then finish off Ted. Either one of these guys can give cap a good fight. Hes not taking them both. Take into account all that these characters have been capable of in the past, not just cap. Cap takes this 1 outta 1000 times if he gets a lucky shot or two. Any higher estimation implies a underestimation of this teams formiddability.

"not going to simply evade everything GA throws at him"? Huh?? Steve is just fast as Slade is. Why would Cap not dodge or block most of the arrows coming his way? GA can't even out react Slade, but he can deal with Steve's speed and agility here? No....

How many shield bashes do u think GA is gonna stand up to before going down? Sorry But Steve will make short work of GA no different then Slade would. WC is the only real problem since he will put up a better fight or attack while Cap deals with GA. But Steve can toss his shield in a way that he can put them right where he needs them and take full advantage of the situation.

team will crush him

Originally posted by namorsubby
For goodness sake.......somebody close this.

Team 10/10

Steve splits with Oliver, so I don't see how he can win this. Heck, because of ranged limitations Bucky may do better.

Ollie should be able to dodge Caps shield throw from a distance or just use one of his trick arrows to capture it. Like I said, a hard fight for Cap.
Team with slight majority.

Team

Originally posted by 753
team will crush him

Originally posted by h1a8
Ollie should be able to dodge Caps shield throw from a distance or just use one of his trick arrows to capture it. Like I said, a hard fight for Cap.
Team with slight majority.

Originally posted by Bentley
Steve splits with Oliver, so I don't see how he can win this. Heck, because of ranged limitations Bucky may do better.

BS... Steve recently took on an entire house of armed trolls without his shield in Avengers Prime #1. Steve pretty much thrashed them with ease. And there were at least 20 of them.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3264/avengersprime01pg1516co.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9746/avengersprime01pg20copy.jpg

Originally posted by Marvelknight
BS... Steve recently took on an entire house of armed trolls without his shield in Avengers Prime #1. Steve pretty much thrashed them with ease. And there were at least 20 of them.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3264/avengersprime01pg1516co.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9746/avengersprime01pg20copy.jpg


Did they have Phantom Zone arrows?

Originally posted by Bentley
Did they have Phantom Zone arrows?

You know the answer already... But what about Steve's speed, agility and reaction time?

what about the fact that either one of these opponents are more than capable of engaging and strongly contesting Steve one on one......without a partner or the tactical teamwork that will undoubtedly come with one(seeing as both are long time team members)

These guys are from Dc so low balling is pretty much guaranteed now if this was Hawkeye and Punisher.

Originally posted by namorsubby
what about the fact that either one of these opponents are more than capable of engaging and strongly contesting Steve one on one......without a partner or the tactical teamwork that will undoubtedly come with one(seeing as both are long time team members)

This.

I'd give Steve the solid majority against either Ollie or Ted on their own (there's hard fought wins, btw). But he's not beating both at once.

Originally posted by namorsubby
what about the fact that either one of these opponents are more than capable of engaging and strongly contesting Steve one on one......without a partner or the tactical teamwork that will undoubtedly come with one(seeing as both are long time team members)

That isn't a fact. WC nor GA could take Cap 1 on 1. "strongly contesting" is too strong of a statement. Cap and Slade are basically in the same league. And GA or WC would be hard pressed to take Slade. I already seen what Cap did to Daredevil, Iron Fist and Black Panther as well. Team work isn't that big of a factor when you're not only the more experienced, but also the most skilled, tactical and physically superior of the three. Look at what Cap did to Beast and Iceman; two long time team members. Cap schooled them.

rogers has no chance

Originally posted by 753
rogers has no chance

Man this is too much... lol1

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Man this is too much... lol1 this thread is indeed hilarious. have you noticed you are his sole supporter here?

Team, but he does better than Slade or Batman in case anyone had any silly thoughts.

Steve gets waxed

Originally posted by Marvelknight
You know the answer already... But what about Steve's speed, agility and reaction time?


Will be pressed to define the battle against Oliver's superior fire power and WC's fighting skills. He can't probably win without blocking some arrows with his shield.

Originally posted by 753
this thread is indeed hilarious. have you noticed you are his sole supporter here?

Which means nothing at all.... Because some seem to have forgotten Identity Crisis #3; where GA had more then one teammate and barely was able to take down Deathstroke.

Steve isn't DS...

deathstroke and cap are not identical in any way, shape, or form. A few of you guys came to this conclusion on kmc somehow, but it is indeed incorrect.

Originally posted by Bentley
Steve isn't DS...

No, he's better.

You guys know that outside of a few odd occurrences, Ollie doesn't use trick shots anymore, right? It was even one of the pr hype points of the new continuity that trick arrows are coming back in the relaunch... because they are gone now... and as such aren't a valid option in this thread...

Originally posted by Bentley
Steve isn't DS...

They're very close physically in fact.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No, he's better.

You guys know that outside of a few odd occurrences, Ollie doesn't use trick shots anymore, right? It was even one of the pr hype points of the new continuity that trick arrows are coming back in the relaunch... because they are gone now... and as such aren't a valid option in this thread...


Well, if that's the case, Oliver is f_cked. They might still get some wins, but I wouldn't give them the majority without big arrows.

slades uniqe brain function is directly responsible for his ability to engage several opponents at once. That is why hes been a consistently potrayed as a team beater since day 1. Cap doesnt have the same powers, history, or physicality.This whole notion of equality concerning the two really needs to stop.

Edit:
trick arrows are not the deal breaker here.......far from it. Theyd help, but are not a deciding factor in this match.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No, he's better.

You guys know that outside of a few odd occurrences, Ollie doesn't use trick shots anymore, right? It was even one of the pr hype points of the new continuity that trick arrows are coming back in the relaunch... because they are gone now... and as such aren't a valid option in this thread...

I didn't know that...

Originally posted by namorsubby
slades uniqe brain function is directly responsible for his ability to engage several opponents at once. That is why hes been a consistently potrayed as a team beater since day 1. Cap doesnt have the same powers, history, or physicality.This whole notion of equality concerning the two really needs to stop.

Edit:
trick arrows are not the deal breaker here.......far from it. Theyd help, but are not a deciding factor in this match.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
BS... Steve recently took on an entire house of armed trolls without his shield in Avengers Prime #1. Steve pretty much thrashed them with ease. And there were at least 20 of them.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3264/avengersprime01pg1516co.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9746/avengersprime01pg20copy.jpg

Cap has tossed opponets weighting over 2000 lbs.

Cap can leap 15 to 20 feet in the air from a standing jump

Cap can run a mile in little over an minute.

Cap can't forget. He remembers every military tactic he has ever learned and apply it to any given situation.

Cap has taken superhuman blows without too much major damage and can heal just as fast as Slade from gun shot wounds...

Originally posted by Marvelknight
I didn't know that...

He stopped using them a few years ago, I think when he started training Connor to be better with a bow, or maybe before that.

Without trick arrows team doesn't stand much of a chance, and to be honest even with them every indication from Green Arrows' history fighting someone as skilled as Cap would suggest that a shield ricochet will knock all the feather fletching off all the arrows in his quiver making him useless. Seriously... that happens to the dude all the time. Don't see the team beating Cap, certainly not for the majority.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He stopped using them a few years ago, I think when he started training Connor to be better with a bow, or maybe before that.

Without trick arrows team doesn't stand much of a chance, and to be honest even with them every indication from Green Arrows' history fighting someone as skilled as Cap would suggest that a shield ricochet will knock all the feather fletching off all the arrows in his quiver making him useless. Seriously... that happens to the dude all the time. Don't see the team beating Cap, certainly not for the majority.

I agree.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He stopped using them a few years ago, I think when he started training Connor to be better with a bow, or maybe before that.

Without trick arrows team doesn't stand much of a chance, and to be honest even with them every indication from Green Arrows' history fighting someone as skilled as Cap would suggest that a shield ricochet will knock all the feather fletching off all the arrows in his quiver making him useless. Seriously... that happens to the dude all the time. Don't see the team beating Cap, certainly not for the majority. ko gas arrow explodes on contact or timing and he still sued soem more serious trick arrows later on his carrer like explosives and such. only those retarded boxing glove arrows were gone

Originally posted by 753
ko gas arrow explodes on contact or timing and he still sued soem more serious trick arrows later on his carrer like explosives and such. only those retarded boxing glove arrows were gone

I include ko gas arrows and exploding arrows in my list of trick arrows that he doesn't use, "out side of a few odd occurrences." The blunt tip "concussion" arrows are the only ones I would consider possibly including in standard gear and even that is a stretch. Since Blackest Night he has pretty much used standard arrows exclusively, and it was like that that prior to BN as well.

He truly is poor man's Hawkeye.

Soon he'll be taking out metas with his various trick arrows. Cool thing is, he'll be crating them himself.

Seems like the tides have changed in this thread. Only a page ago Marvelknight was ridiculed and lambasted from all sides for his believes, but he stood firm and held the breach until reinforcements arrived. What a true and noble hero. Rest easy friend, rest easy.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Steve could distract them and keep them off guard with a shield toss; leaving either one of them open for an attack. Steve is too fast for AC and fast enough to engage both of them this way. Steve will dodge most if not all of AC's arrows. And can put him down easy enough to deal with WC at the end. That's kinda how I see it. Plus Steve knows he out match by 2, so the terrain will favor him in the use against these 2.

I say CA wins 4/10

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Seems like the tides have changed in this thread. Only a page ago Marvelknight was ridiculed and lambasted from all sides for his believes, but he stood firm and held the breach until reinforcements arrived. What a true and noble hero. Rest easy friend, rest easy.

thumbup1

Originally posted by vansonbee
Plus Steve knows he out match by 2, so the terrain will favor him in the use against these 2.

I say CA wins 4/10

Very true. Which only adds to his speed, agility and reflex advantage over them. There are so many surfaces to ricochet his shield off of to lure them in, disarm or disable.

Originally posted by Bentley
He truly is poor man's Hawkeye. Clint is the best at what he does though he probably has a slight ma edge over ollie too

Originally posted by Bentley
He truly is poor man's Hawkeye. OQ>CB and that is the las I'll hear of this

Originally posted by iceman24567
Clint is the best at what he does though he probably has a slight ma edge over ollie too Wasn't Ollie own kid and Roy better than he was? Ironically Batman kept his kids in check, except Cassandra XD

celestial archer> conner>clint> ollie.

celestial archer> conner> clint> ollie.

The fact that no one has closed this thread yet is a testament to just how slanted these boards are. Itz simply absurd to think that 2 peaks of this caliber working together cant take steve 10/10. Then there are a few of the same radicals saying they couldnt even take a majority against him? Nonsense, plain and simple. Either one of these guys could take a minority alone. Even taking these guys at their lowest, i cant see how they cant beat one individual of cap's power level and power set.

Cap 6/10

Originally posted by tkitna
Steve isnt winning this unless he lucks out and knocks Ollie out with his shield fairly quick or something. And he would!

Ollie > Clint.

Bendispower Clint >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ollie.

Back on topic, Steve isn't beating both Ted and Ollie for the majority at the same time. Maybe if we highball Steve while ignoring both what Ted and Ollie have done, it's possible for him to win, but not for the majority.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Ollie > Clint.

Bendispower Clint >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ollie.

Back on topic, Steve isn't beating both Ted and Ollie for the majority at the same time. Maybe if we highball Steve while ignoring both what Ted and Ollie have done, it's possible for him to win, but not for the majority.

No need to highball Steve or ignore Ted and Ollie, one just take an impartial look at their respective histories. Ollie will get his bow string cut, or the fletching smashed off his quiver by Captain America's ricocheting shield (anyone with a passing familiarity with Green Arrow's solo titles knows that happens to Ollie all the damn time, and at the hands of people a lot less skilled or physically impressive than Cap), then he just has to deal with Ted - who will cause him about as much trouble as an unarmed Punisher - and a melee Green Arrow. It's not a stretch of the imagination to think Captain America could take the majority here.

Originally posted by namorsubby The fact that no one has closed this thread yet is a testament to just how slanted these boards are. Itz simply absurd to think that 2 peaks of this caliber working together cant take steve 10/10. Then there are a few of the same radicals saying they couldnt even take a majority against him? Nonsense, plain and simple. Either one of these guys could take a minority alone. Even taking these guys at their lowest, i cant see how they cant beat one individual of cap's power level and power set.

pretty much.

Originally posted by 753
rogers has no chance

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Cap has tossed opponets weighting over 2000 lbs.

Cap can leap 15 to 20 feet in the air from a standing jump

Cap can run a mile in little over an minute.

Cap can't forget. He remembers every military tactic he has ever learned and apply it to any given situation.

Cap has taken superhuman blows without too much major damage and can heal just as fast as Slade from gun shot wounds...


Good post Mk.

If you mean "completely irrelevent" when you say good, then yes.

Stating what he can do doesnt negate the fact that he simply is not anywhere near identical to Slade. Anyone who knows anything about Slade should know this. And btw, the statement about his healing factor is sheer blasphemy. He doesn't heal anywhere near as fast or to the extent that Slade can. It's statements like these that make me realize just how futile it is to argue with these few overzealous cap supporters.

Slade has on several occassions immediately visibly healed from injuries. Hes been impaled by swords and "fatally" shot SEVERAL times and recoverd in moments. Its no contest whatsoever.

Originally posted by namorsubby
If you mean "completely irrelevent" when you say good, then yes.

Stating what he can do doesnt negate the fact that he simply is not anywhere near identical to Slade. Anyone who knows anything about Slade should know this. And btw, the statement about his healing factor is sheer blasphemy. He doesn't heal anywhere near as fast or to the extent that Slade can. It's statements like these that make me realize just how futile it is to argue with these few overzealous cap supporters.

Slade has on several occassions immediately visibly healed from injuries. Hes been impaled by swords and "fatally" shot SEVERAL times and recoverd in moments. Its no contest whatsoever.

Are you getting Slade's new series in September?

most definitely

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Good post Mk.

Thanks

Originally posted by namorsubby
If you mean "completely irrelevent" when you say good, then yes.

Stating what he can do doesnt negate the fact that he simply is not anywhere near identical to Slade. Anyone who knows anything about Slade should know this. And btw, the statement about his healing factor is sheer blasphemy. He doesn't heal anywhere near as fast or to the extent that Slade can. It's statements like these that make me realize just how futile it is to argue with these few overzealous cap supporters.

Slade has on several occassions immediately visibly healed from injuries. Hes been impaled by swords and "fatally" shot SEVERAL times and recoverd in moments. Its no contest whatsoever.

You're ignoring the fact that they are very close. I read Slade and know what he's capable of. Gun shot wounds I've seen Cap heal just as fast as Slade. Now I'm not saying Cap can take everything Slade has or heals faster. But look at Civil War # 3; Cap was beaten badly by Iron Man and did not get KO'ed. Slade was put down with one good shot from Wonder Woman. Bats has even gave Slade a fight. Slade was holding an arm while walking away slowly, stating he wouldn't want to fight Bats without his enhancements. Cap is better than Bats (yes I said it for the Marvel fans who know me as Thadarknite84).

Originally posted by CosmicComet
he really doesnt

Cap is most likely going to take them head on. He's got the whole of Time Square to use tactically, and in that case he could win.

Originally posted by namorsubby
If you mean "completely irrelevent" when you say good, then yes.

Stating what he can do doesnt negate the fact that he simply is not anywhere near identical to Slade. Anyone who knows anything about Slade should know this. And btw, the statement about his healing factor is sheer blasphemy. He doesn't heal anywhere near as fast or to the extent that Slade can. It's statements like these that make me realize just how futile it is to argue with these few overzealous cap supporters.

Slade has on several occassions immediately visibly healed from injuries. Hes been impaled by swords and "fatally" shot SEVERAL times and recoverd in moments. Its no contest whatsoever.

you prob cited the one thing where they have the greatest difference. But to be honest, Cap doesn't get cut or shot up much because he has a sheild and he dodges them easily because he can actually see and track bullets in mid flight. But on the off chance someones does shoot him, it won't kill him, seeing how he got shot in the brain and was fine later. But also we are talking abou tlike twice that has every happened in his history?

Anyway team wins most of the time but damn near die trying to do it.

Overzealous Cap fans... wow really aint the a classic "the pot calling the kettle black" lol

Edit: Mean't to say Cap isn't going to take them head on.

Originally posted by Deadline
Edit: Mean't to say Cap isn't going to take them head on.

i was about to disagree with you...

Sonic arrow ftw!

Steve has a pretty decent shot at winning this. Probably give the edge to the team, at least if Ollie pulls out the trick arrows.

Originally posted by Deadline
Edit: Mean't to say Cap isn't going to take them head on.

Why not? I just wanna know your opinion. I can't see why two at a time is so hard when the man has beaten 20 or more all ganging on him at once. Those trolls in The Avengers Prime #1 are physically superior to humans.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Why not? I just wanna know your opinion. I can't see why two at a time is so hard when the man has beaten 20 or more all ganging on him at once. Those trolls in The Avengers Prime #1 are physically superior to humans.

\I don't think he would just charge up and punch them in the face. Since Captain is a supreme tactician and strategist he will use the terrain against them. It's just a more sound idea, these two aint weaklings, captain is going to have to use his brains and skills to win.

I like the troll feat but still its a bunch of fodder trolls.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
\I don't think he would just charge up and punch them in the face. Since Captain is a supreme tactician and strategist he will use the terrain against them. It's just a more sound idea, these two aint weaklings, captain is going to have to use his brains and skills to win.

I like the troll feat but still its a bunch of fodder trolls.

Did you not see what happened during Identity Crisis #3? Slade pounded GA's face in after a desperation move on GA's part. All of these trick arrows and GA couldn't get off one shot before several of his teammates got dropped in a matter of seconds. Cap is nearly as fast as Slade or just as fast. Physically GA and WC are outclassed here.

Last I checked bullets >> arrows.

Blocks a bullet from the winter soldier with his shield after the shot's fired.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5392/ca14014mp3.jpg
Soon after, dodges point blank, from his knees, and even throws his shield in the span of time it takes the bullet to get from the barrel to him.
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3846/ca14016zs1.jpg


Taking on Beast and Iceman; much harder than taking on Green Arrow and Wildcat imo.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Captain%20America/capvsiceman.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Captain%20America/capvsbeast.jpg

For as fast as he is, CA isn't dodging sonic arrows.

Team 7-8/10.

I don't think this will be easy, but I think while Cap is fighting Wildcat Green Arrow can take advantage of the distraction and take him out from range.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Last I checked bullets >> arrows.

Blocks a bullet from the winter soldier with his shield after the shot's fired.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5392/ca14014mp3.jpg
Soon after, dodges point blank, from his knees, and even throws his shield in the span of time it takes the bullet to get from the barrel to him.
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3846/ca14016zs1.jpg


Taking on Beast and Iceman; much harder than taking on Green Arrow and Wildcat imo.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Captain%20America/capvsiceman.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Captain%20America/capvsbeast.jpg


I don't see what that iceman beast scan is suppose to prove Bobby intentionally froze his legs.That had more to do with iceman not wanting to hurt him than him being able to take him on.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
For as fast as he is, CA isn't dodging sonic arrows.

Does he still use them as part of standard equipment?

Originally posted by SuperiorTech
I don't see what that iceman beast scan is suppose to prove Bobby intentionally froze his legs.That had more to do with iceman not wanting to hurt him than him being able to take him on.

Then I say it wasn't a real smart move on his part. Cap just took advantage of the situation.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Did you not see what happened during Identity Crisis #3? Slade pounded GA's face in after a desperation move on GA's part. All of these trick arrows and GA couldn't get off one shot before several of his teammates got dropped in a matter of seconds. Cap is nearly as fast as Slade or just as fast. Physically GA and WC are outclassed here.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Then I say it wasn't a real smart move on his part. Cap just took advantage of the situation.

I know that the point is pick a better example.

Silly as it sounds, in comics arrows hit people more often than bullets do. awesome

Originally posted by SuperiorTech
I know that the point is pick a better example.

No need... Sure Iceman could have done a lot things, but that isn't the point.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
No need... Sure Iceman could have done a lot things, but that isn't the point.


So whats the point are you trying to show? that cap can over come the odds against people more powerful than the two in this thread how does that work if those people intentionally hold back or don't fight to the best of their abilities.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech
So whats the point are you trying to show? that cap can over come the odds against people more powerful than the two in this thread how does that work if those people intentionally hold back or don't fight to the best of their abilities.

The point is that not only can he fight against two stronger opponents, but also two opponents with years of experience working together. I also wouldn't say they were holding back that much. In that issue everyone was pretty heated and Cap was about to smash Beast in if not for Iceman stopping it.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
The point is that not only can he fight against two stronger opponents, but also two opponents with years of experience working together.


Dude if Bobby wanted that fight over it would have ended in one panel he could have frozen Steve solid, bulked up and gone h2h trapped him in a ice prison etc etc.I told you to pick a better example where Steve was the reason he won the fight not because his opponent didn't want to hurt him and went easy.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech
Dude if Bobby wanted that fight over it would have ended in one panel he could have frozen Steve solid, bulked up and gone h2h trapped him in a ice prison etc etc.I told you to pick a better example where Steve was the reason he won the fight not because his opponent didn't want to hurt him and went easy.

I've already have. Avengers Prime #1 against 20 or more armed trolls.

Do I really need to show "Steve Rogers Super Solider" # 3 where Steve didn't have the SSS activated in him; still taking down three security guards on the SSS?

I still don't see Cap taking a majority. Even WC has taken on metas when he's on the JSA.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I still don't see Cap taking a majority. Even WC has taken on metas when he's on the JSA.

WC isn't near Cap in physical stats, skill nor tactics. Cap has left opponents attacking his after image in Secret Avengers while fighting alongside Shang-Chi. Reaction time is a big factor here.

never said he was, but he can def hold his own for a bit while ollie shoots hin with an arrow.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
never said he was, but he can def hold his own for a bit while ollie shoots hin with an arrow.

Hey no disrespect, but if Cap can enter a large cabin full of ARMED trolls (swords, axes, shields, armor, arrows and spears) and only be hit beryl by an flaming arrow against 20 or more opponents; he can deal with these two. How can two less skilled, less experienced and physically outmatched opponents overwhelm him?

One fighter who IS a highly skilled boxer with mastery of several other martial arts but lacks the endurance to truly last against Cap. And the other opponent is even less skilled who relies too much on his bow and arrow. Anyone thinking Cap will leave an opponent who visibly has a ranged weapon alone to get the open attack doesn't truly know how Cap engages an opponent.

I've seen Cap dodge a sneak attack from behind, then throws his shield, ricocheting it off the wall behind Zuran; taking him out on the return. He caught the shield without even looking; right arm reaching out.

Cap has even dodged multiple leasers in mid air. He's fast. Very fast; too fast for GA to even get off a shot if Cap really wanted to get to him before hand.

cap has a physical and skill edge on them both, but that doesnt equate to him beating them both. Like i said someone of caps power set and level would be no where near an insurmountable task for 2 elite dc peaks such as these. You obviously dont know much about thesse characters. On a good day teds taken more formmiddable foes. Hhis damage soak and strength is off the scale. He could definitely hang with cap alone. And GA is a great tactician and has nailed faster opponents. This whole notion that steve is too fast for ollie to touch with an arrow is unrealistic.also, ted has about 70 years of experience along with rejuvenation through magic.

Originally posted by namorsubby
cap has a physical and skill edge on them both, but that doesnt equate to him beating them both. Like i said someone of caps power set and level would be no where near an insurmountable task for 2 elite dc peaks such as these. You obviously dont know much about thesse characters. On a good day teds taken more formmiddable foes. Hhis damage soak and strength is off the scale. He could definitely hang with cap alone. And GA is a great tactician and has nailed faster opponents. This whole notion that steve is too fast for ollie to touch with an arrow is unrealistic.also, ted has about 70 years of experience along with rejuvenation through magic.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Did you not see what happened during Identity Crisis #3? Slade pounded GA's face in after a desperation move on GA's part. All of these trick arrows and GA couldn't get off one shot before several of his teammates got dropped in a matter of seconds. Cap is nearly as fast as Slade or just as fast. Physically GA and WC are outclassed here.

namorsubby, keep it 100 with me. If this was Slade instead of Cap against these two, what would your opinion be then?

ollie has tagged slade before and managed to in that same issue. Slades faster anyway. Cap does not possess the same brain function that makes slade the team beater he is. Stop trying to make slade a dc barometer for steve rogers. Hes not. Plain and simple.

Like i said, either one of these guys can take a minority vs cap. The notion that he can take a majority vs both only implies a lack of knowledge on both combatants. Teds 7 decades worth of experience, for example. Just how much does cap have?

Originally posted by namorsubby
ollie has tagged slade before and managed to in that same issue. Slades faster anyway. Cap does not possess the same brain function that makes slade the team beater he is. Stop trying to make slade a dc barometer for steve rogers. Hes not. Plain and simple.

Like i said, either one of these guys can take a minority vs cap. The notion that he can take a majority vs both only implies a lack of knowledge on both combatants. Teds 7 decades worth of experience, for example. Just how much does cap have?

GA never hit Slade with an arrow fired form the bow in fact. GA stabbed Slade in the right eye from behind while Slade kept GL from using his ring after Slade pretty much owned everyone else including GA himself.

For the record, Slade is not superior to Cap. only slightly better healing and reaction time. Cap could defeat Slade 1 on 1, or it could go either way really. Also you should quit with this notion that I don't know about WC or GA.. I have comics with them fyi.

You dont have to explain the fight to me, i have the scans. Either way ga has tagged slade with arrows before.

Caps healing factor is no where near on par, period. Theres nothing to suggest it is, but you guys keep saying "only slightly". No, only plain out of his league.

Slades reaction time has been stated instantaneous many times. Hes routinely outmanuevered opponents so much faster than cap that its not even funny. And sure, if you only consider slades low end feats vs elite peak humans and ignore the consistent ass whoopings hes given them and metas in groups than yeah, him and cap 1 on 1 could go either way.

But seriously, stop bringing slade into this. Hes not a measuring stick for how cap would do vs dc characters, so stop making him one. Cap doesnt have the team beating creditials slade does anyway.

And yes, if you knew these characters, youd know its virtually a slap in the face to suggest that they both cant take a character of his level together.

Cap vs ted. Ted 4/10
Cap vs ollie. Ollie 3-4/10
Cap vs both. Team 10/10

Personally I wouldn't give Ted any wins against regular Cap, Steve holds every advantage.

Not neccessarily. How much experience does cap have? Also
Steve is more skillledoverall certainly, but teds boxing skills far exceed anyone in comics, along with having mastered martial art forms. His strength and endurance basically defy logic, being that he is simply human. I cant think of a peak without some type of armor in their suit that is that durable. Hes pretty underrated if you ask me. His jsa members consider him the best fighter in the world. He beats metas all the time without armor or weapons, just his fists.

I'd argue that experience won't be a factor since Steve is very experienced and has fared well against very unorthodox fighters in the past. I understand that Ted has absurd durability, but for all proposes Rogers is above human durability himself, and even if he didn't hold that advantage, he is holding his own better in the long run considering external factor -stamina, weaponry, speed, skill, etc.-.

I'm not saying Ted isn't powerful, but it's like comparing a random heavy weight fighter against Prime Rocky Marciano.

Originally posted by Bentley
I'd argue that experience won't be a factor since Steve is very experienced and has fared well against very unorthodox fighters in the past. I understand that Ted has absurd durability, but for all proposes Rogers is above human durability himself, and even if he didn't hold that advantage, he is holding his own better in the long run considering external factor -stamina, weaponry, speed, skill, etc.-.

I'm not saying Ted isn't powerful, but it's like comparing a random heavy weight fighter against Prime Rocky Marciano. You know honestly i can see where youre coming from. I personally believe that Ted could give Cap a hell of a fight and even possibly come out with the victory in some instances, but a good perfomance in a fight doesnt neccessarily equal wins at any considerable margin for Wildcat. Even so, the fact that either one of these combatants can give Steve problems individually makes it hard for me to believe that they couldnt overcome him together without serious difficulty

Originally posted by namorsubby
You dont have to explain the fight to me, i have the scans. Either way ga has tagged slade with arrows before.

Caps healing factor is no where near on par, period. Theres nothing to suggest it is, but you guys keep saying "only slightly". No, only plain out of his league.

Slades reaction time has been stated instantaneous many times. Hes routinely outmanuevered opponents so much faster than cap that its not even funny. And sure, if you only consider slades low end feats vs elite peak humans and ignore the consistent ass whoopings hes given them and metas in groups than yeah, him and cap 1 on 1 could go either way.

But seriously, stop bringing slade into this. Hes not a measuring stick for how cap would do vs dc characters, so stop making him one. Cap doesnt have the team beating creditials slade does anyway.

And yes, if you knew these characters, youd know its virtually a slap in the face to suggest that they both cant take a character of his level together.

Cap vs ted. Ted 4/10
Cap vs ollie. Ollie 3-4/10
Cap vs both. Team 10/10

First off, Slade's HF isn't far and beyond Steve's. Because Slade doesn't heal as fast as Logan nor are their HF on par. Slade can resurrect and has better control over his metabolism. Thats it. Steve has shown comparable damage soak to Slade.

Cap has been shot in the head and survive.

Cap can withstand several blows from the likes of Iron Man and Namor and not black out from the damage.

Cap has been shot multiple times without armor, and survive.

Cap has even been caught in explosions and survive.


And second Cap's reflexes are also instantaneous by feats alone. He has reacted to ramdom dangers and traps instantaneously one after the other in Captain America Vol 1 #358 (The Blood Stone Hunt arch). Also take into consideration where they are fighting.

Here's how Cap uses his surroundings against a physically superior oponent, Nazi.
http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/00002.jpg
http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/00004.jpg
http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/00005.jpg
http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/00006.jpg

And here Cap again takes on two more powerful oponents, Scorpion and Mr. Hyde.
http://img141.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-32072/loc597/39903_Captain_America152_15_122_597lo.JPG
http://img16.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-10882/loc1197/39904_Captain_America152_16_122_1197lo.JPG
http://img203.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=39909_Captain_America152_18_122_458lo.JPG#
http://img190.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-15909/loc489/39915_Captain_America152_19_122_489lo.JPG
http://img181.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-9429/loc59/39921_Captain_America152_20_122_59lo.JPG

This is how fast Cap can and will react to their attacks

Captain America Dodging Blasts from the robots with ease.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6297/a1zb0.jpg

Cap can react with the speed and timing to actually roll the force of a concussive shot after it's fired.
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9325/a2jz0.jpg

"Cap moves so fast that these guys barely even see him flip right past them, and they were waiting for him" - King KAM
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/9071/a7gi2.jpg

Maria Hill doesn't think the likes of Luke Cage and Daredevil would be too much for Cap to handle himself. Also see how fast Cap reacts; taking down a group of armed SHIELD agents.
http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/7710/scan00239un.jpg
http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/2331/scan00243nj.jpg
http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/237/scan00266jd.jpg
http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/1333/scan00276vh.jpg
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1608/scan00286bd.jpg

Soon after Cap displays amazing acrobatics and agility; falling in mid air while blocking automatic gunfire from all sides.
http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/6641/scan00295fv.jpg

Here again Cap takes on a physically superior opponent, Namor; showing skill, speed, agility, resilience and durability.

Note: Cap fought with damaged body armor mid way into the fight.

http://img156.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-4312/loc1041/48878_Captain_America423-15_122_1041lo.JPG
http://img17.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-32440/loc964/48884_Captain_America423-16_122_964lo.JPG
http://img146.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-26365/loc879/48890_Captain_America423-17_122_879lo.JPG
http://img102.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-17965/loc876/48901_Captain_America423-18_122_876lo.JPG
http://img7.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-482/loc1021/48903_Captain_America423-19_122_1021lo.JPG
http://img108.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-15951/loc1197/48910_Captain_America423-20_122_1197lo.JPG

And explosive arrows are really no problem for the Shield to handle really if anyone thought otherwise. Cap really can handle these two with a lot of effort.

Wildcat beating Captain America 4/10? Jesus Christ. Ted would be lucky to beat Captain America 40% of the time he himself had the SSS. You got jokes man, you got jokes.

Ollie and Ted aren't peak, they are Olympic level. Captain America is 3x peak with virtually limitless stamina and a massive skill advantage. Do the math.

rogers isn't 3x peak human because bucky barnes himself isnt a peak human. also as far as ted being olympic, sportsmaster is an olympic level character and he's been schooled by ted. ted is easily a peak human.

that being said cap takes it, but srank is still a moron just like on comicvine.

Originally posted by namorsubby
The fact that no one has closed this thread yet is a testament to just how slanted these boards are. Itz simply absurd to think that 2 peaks of this caliber working together cant take steve 10/10. Then there are a few of the same radicals saying they couldnt even take a majority against him? Nonsense, plain and simple. Either one of these guys could take a minority alone. Even taking these guys at their lowest, i cant see how they cant beat one individual of cap's power level and power set. you gotta remember that the majority of people on this site are idiots. plus with morons like carver9, quanchi, srank and marvel knight leading the charge.

Originally posted by wellillbedamn
you gotta remember that the majority of people on this site are idiots. plus with morons like carver9, quanchi, srank and marvel knight leading the charge.

hysterical.... Very funny but grow up. I can't speak for the others. But I wouldn't call them morons. And you don't need to put me on such a pedestal here on KMC. I don't lead anything and I'm far from being a idiot lol. I just try to be real about the outcome.

Comicvine is whack btw... KMC is much better and its members.

Originally posted by wellillbedamn
rogers isn't 3x peak human because bucky barnes himself isnt a peak human. also as far as ted being olympic, sportsmaster is an olympic level character and he's been schooled by ted. ted is easily a peak human.

that being said cap takes it, but srank is still a moron just like on comicvine.

Yeah buddy, Bucky is peak human. Maybe try reading some comics? Your ignorance of characters and utter lack of knowledge may fly on comicvine, because it is filled with individuals as equally uninformed as you are, who get all they know from irrelevant fan written character wikis... but even on comicvine the Bucky write up lists him as peak human, so maybe you are uninformed even by comicvine standards? Sad.

Robin has schooled Shrike (an olympic level human), I guess Robin must be peak human! I guess Catwoman is too because she has beat a lot of olumpic level fighters! ZOMG Onyx is peeeeeeeeak human. dur

You're dumb. Do you want me to show you how to buy comics online so you can educate yourself?

Bucky, in his short run, has a record that puts Green Arrow into shame and that should make you ask if Wildcat can putt more than 4 wins against him, and yet Bucky has never managed to overpower Steve.

Originally posted by Bentley
Bucky, in his short run, has a record that puts Green Arrow into shame and that should make you ask if Wildcat can putt more than 4 wins against him, and yet Bucky has never managed to overpower Steve.

Seriously, even if someone can't be bothered to go back and read the Winter Soldier and subsequent Bucky Cap stuff, all they need to do is read the last couple of story arcs with Bucky in the Russian Gulag with his arm de-powered to know whats up. Hell, it might even directly state in the narative that he is peak human in the first couple issues of that arc.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Seriously, even if someone can't be bothered to go back and read the Winter Soldier and subsequent Bucky Cap stuff, all they need to do is read the last couple of story arcs with Bucky in the Russian Gulag with his arm de-powered to know whats up. Hell, it might even directly state in the narative that he is peak human in the first couple issues of that arc. You must know when to be able to throw out nonsense when it applies.

Bucky shouldn't ever be considered peak human as Spidey should ever be considered class 50 or more. Both have the feats but that doesn't automatically give them this status.

Bucky may be olympic level but not peak human (which is clearly above).

Originally posted by h1a8
You must know when to be able to throw out nonsense when it applies.

Bucky shouldn't ever be considered peak human as Spidey should ever be considered class 50 or more. Both have the feats but that doesn't automatically give them this status.

Bucky may be olympic level but not peak human (which is clearly above).

Based on what?

I'm sorry but Bucky is peak, and Steve is superhuman. As much as I hate to to destroy the delusional dream Batman fanboys have that Bruce = Steve, but that just isn't the case.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Based on what?

I'm sorry but Bucky is peak, and Steve is superhuman. As much as I hate to to destroy the delusional dream Batman fanboys have that Bruce = Steve, but that just isn't the case.
If Bucky is a peak human then Spider-man is class 50 or above.

If you were a good debator you wouldn't jump to illogical conclusions. I don't once think that Batman =Steve in the physical department. I'm trying to not be bias here, something you should try as well. A peak human feat doesn't qualify you to be peak human if you are a normal human. You must be enhanced with some outside agent (like a chemical) in order for that to happen. Cap can be enhanced human or peak human because of an outside agent (SSS).

By this definition, Batman isn't peak human either (for a normal human could theoretically be stronger).

Also you have the comic definition of peak human and the real life definition of peak human. They are not the same. Every hero (no matter if they have powers or not) have at least peak human feats (in the real life definition). But some are not peak human (in the comic definition).

In Summary, a normal human CAN NEVER REACH PEAK HUMAN unless they receive some outside agent to achieve it.

Batman is the true definition of what a peak human is in DC, period.

Batman out classes WC and GA 1 on 1 as well. And with prep, Bats could take them with ease. Knowing Bruce; he's probably thought of this already lol...

physically, Cap is clearly better compared to Bats. But in DC, Bruce is really among the very few who would give Steve a very tough fight. And WC is near Bruce physically, but less skilled. And GA would get washed up by Bruce, real talk. Cap would do even better with his combine vast skill, greater experience, and physically superiority a crossed the board.

Originally posted by h1a8
If Bucky is a peak human then Spider-man is class 50 or above.

If you were a good debator you wouldn't jump to illogical conclusions. I don't once think that Batman =Steve in the physical department. I'm trying to not be bias here, something you should try as well. A peak human feat doesn't qualify you to be peak human if you are a normal human. You must be enhanced with some outside agent (like a chemical) in order for that to happen. Cap can be enhanced human or peak human because of an outside agent (SSS).

By this definition, Batman isn't peak human either (for a normal human could theoretically be stronger).

Also you have the comic definition of peak human and the real life definition of peak human. They are not the same. Every hero (no matter if they have powers or not) have at least peak human feats (in the real life definition). But some are not peak human (in the comic definition).

In Summary, a normal human CAN NEVER REACH PEAK HUMAN unless they receive some outside agent to achieve it.

What are you talking about? Are you saying it is impossible for a human to reach the limits of the human body? It's not. You could - I suppose - argue that no one in the real world has done it, but that doesn't mean such a limit doesn't exist, and that is completely irrelevant because peak human does exist in comics. Not to mention comic characters have better feats across the board then even the best real human in ever. single. category. A person could make the case that since no human has done it that Bucky and his peers must all be super human... but we don't because we know their placements within the established status quo set place in the actual comics. This is among the flimsiest arguments I have ever seen on KMC.

Bucky is a peak human, his feats have made that pretty clear since he came back as Winter Soldier, and it is well established that he is stronger and faster than Black Widow (who is a peak female character), and more recently it was shown that he is physically on par with the male versions of the Black Widow (the Wolf Spider program) who were all enhanced with bio-technology to be peak human. Punisher has implied Bucky is better then him and Frank is pushing peak in several categories himself. If a character is stronger or faster then Bucky, they are super human. Spider-man's strength doesn't factor into the equation.

Originally posted by wellillbedamn
you gotta remember that the majority of people on this site are idiots. plus with morons like carver9, quanchi, srank and marvel knight leading the charge. I AM A DORAK I WILL CRUSH U!!!!! WHHAAA

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What are you talking about? Are you saying it is impossible for a human to reach the limits of the human body? It's not. You could - I suppose - argue that no one in the real world has done it, but that doesn't mean such a limit doesn't exist, and that is completely irrelevant because peak human does exist in comics. Not to mention comic characters have better feats across the board then even the best real human in ever. single. category. A person could make the case that since no human has done it that Bucky and his peers must all be super human... but we don't because we know their placements within the established status quo set place in the actual comics. This is among the flimsiest arguments I have ever seen on KMC.

Bucky is a peak human, his feats have made that pretty clear since he came back as Winter Soldier, and it is well established that he is stronger and faster than Black Widow (who is a peak female character), and more recently it was shown that he is physically on par with the male versions of the Black Widow (the Wolf Spider program) who were all enhanced with bio-technology to be peak human. Punisher has implied Bucky is better then him and Frank is pushing peak in several categories himself. If a character is stronger or faster then Bucky, they are super human. Spider-man's strength doesn't factor into the equation.

You didn't understand me. There are two versions of peak human, one in comics and one in real life. Any peak human feats in comics are actually super human feats in real life and any peak human feats in real life are just athletic feats in comics.

You must go by the intentions of the writers. The writers don't intend for Bucky to be stronger than any human who ever lived without some outside agent. This makes all the stuff you said moot.

Comic logic must be applied across the board. The logic you apply to Bucky must also be applied to Spidey. Is Spidey a class 100? Please answer that.

Originally posted by h1a8
You didn't understand me. There are two versions of peak human, one in comics and one in real life. Any peak human feats in comics are actually super human feats in real life and any peak human feats in real life are just athletic feats in comics.

You must go by the intentions of the writers. The writers don't intend for Bucky to be stronger than any human who ever lived without some outside agent. This makes all the stuff you said moot.

Comic logic must be applied across the board. The logic you apply to Bucky must also be applied to Spidey. Is Spidey a class 100? Please answer that.

Except for that is the intend of the writers. Characters like Batman, Bucky and current powerless Black Panther are peak human. They have reached a mythical glass ceiling of human conditioning, where it is impossible to physically advance without moving into meta territory. Bucky is a strong and fast as a human can be, that is the intent of the writers. Him being stronger or faster then any really human is irrelevant to the topic, because no real human is peak human. The writers intend for Bucky to be the pinnacle of human potential, and he is.

Spider-man is class 20. Bucky is peak human. That is the established levels of the characters. Why does Bucky being peak human make Spider-man class 100? It doesn't.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Except for that is the intend of the writers. Characters like Batman, Bucky and current powerless Black Panther are peak human. They have reached a mythical glass ceiling of human conditioning, where it is impossible to physically advance without moving into meta territory. Bucky is a strong and fast as a human can be, that is the intent of the writers. Him being stronger or faster then any really human is irrelevant to the topic, because no real human is peak human. The writers intend for Bucky to be the pinnacle of human potential, and he is.

Spider-man is class 20. Bucky is peak human. That is the established levels of the characters. Why does Bucky being peak human make Spider-man class 100? It doesn't.

You are having delusions. It is extremely clear that writers don't intent for Bucky nor Batman to be as strong as a human can be. Take the strongest pure human in comics and he will be stronger than both Batman or Bucky.

Why is Bucky peak human by your definition? Is it because of peak human feats? Well Spidey has class 100 feats. Is he now class 100 by your definition?

Originally posted by h1a8
You are having delusions. It is extremely clear that writers don't intent for Bucky nor Batman to be as strong as a human can be. Take the strongest pure human in comics and he will be stronger than both Batman or Bucky.

Why is Bucky peak human by your definition? Is it because of peak human feats? Well Spidey has class 100 feats. Is he now class 100 by your definition?

Bucky has superhuman feats of strength, just like Spider-man has class 50 strength feats, but those feats don't matter because they don't fall in line the majority representation. James is peak human because 99% of his feats are peak human, that is how he is portrayed in comics. He isn't an Olympic who has sporadic occurrences of peak human strength, he is a constantly peak human who occasionally displays superhuman abilities. It's not really a matter for debate, Brubaker has made it pretty clear that Bucky is above Olympics like Falcon (and Hawkeye), and has peak human attributes on par with the Wolf Spider Program (an inferior Russian Super Soldier program which created peak human soldiers). Hell, the last Batroc one shot that came out a few months ago was all about how Batroc was peak human, the best he could possibly be, and yet not able to beat Bucky.

They only pure humans who are stronger then Bucky are Kingpin and Bane, and they have blatantly superhuman strength.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Bucky has superhuman feats of strength, just like Spider-man has class 50 strength feats, but those feats don't matter because they don't fall in line the majority representation. James is peak human because 99% of his feats are peak human, that is how he is portrayed in comics. He isn't an Olympic who has sporadic occurrences of peak human strength, he is a constantly peak human who occasionally displays superhuman abilities. It's not really a matter for debate, Brubaker has made it pretty clear that Bucky is above Olympics like Falcon (and Hawkeye), and has peak human attributes on par with the Wolf Spider Program (an inferior Russian Super Soldier program which created peak human soldiers). Hell, the last Batroc one shot that came out a few months ago was all about how Batroc was peak human, the best he could possibly be, and yet not able to beat Bucky.

They only pure humans who are stronger then Bucky are Kingpin and Bane, and they have blatantly superhuman strength.

Bucky only has less than 5% of his feats as peak human. Remember that peak human in comics is not peak human in reality. Bucky having super human feats in comics doesn't mean those are super human feats, it means they are peak human feats (by comic standards).

Beating characters have no bearing on one's status. Cap, Batman, etc. has beaten more powerful foes with physical force. That doesn't put them in the same strength range now does it?

Bucky may have the skills and technique and agility, but he doesn't have the strength of a peak human (comic standard). Otherwise, Spider-man possesses the strength of a class 100 being.

Last thing, pure humans in comics CAN'T HAVE COMIC SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH for they are not super human. A super human feat by a pure human in comics doesn't classify one as a super human nor as a peak human.

This whole argument is moot anyway. Does Bucky feats make him stronger than real humans? Of course they do (who feats doesn't?). Does Bucky feats make him as strong as a comic human can possibly be? Hell no! Thus he is not comic peak human.

Originally posted by h1a8
Bucky only has less than 5% of his feats as peak human. Remember that peak human in comics is not peak human in reality. Bucky having super human feats in comics doesn't mean those are super human feats, it means they are peak human feats (by comic standards).

Beating characters have no bearing on one's status. Cap, Batman, etc. has beaten more powerful foes with physical force. That doesn't put them in the same strength range now does it?

Bucky may have the skills and technique and agility, but he doesn't have the strength of a peak human (comic standard). Otherwise, Spider-man possesses the strength of a class 100 being.

Last thing, pure humans in comics CAN'T HAVE COMIC SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH for they are not super human. A super human feat by a pure human in comics doesn't classify one as a super human nor as a peak human.

This whole argument is moot anyway. Does Bucky feats make him stronger than real humans? Of course they do (who feats doesn't?). Does Bucky feats make him as strong as a comic human can possibly be? Hell no! Thus he is not comic peak human.

Nothing you are saying makes any sense... did you just have stroke or something?

All of Bucky's feats since being reintroduced into continuity as the Winter Soldier are peak human, and everything before that was severally retcon'd by Brubaker's updated origins for Bucky. I'm not even entirely sure what you are trying to say (because it doesn't make any sense), but what ever it is, you are wrong. You seem to be under the impression that it is impossible for a character to reach peak human status without aid, but you're wrong. Three or four months ago current Black Panther stated plain as day on panel "I'm peak human." Dude even used the words peak human for Christ's sake. Then there was that previously mentioned Batroc story out around the same time, that actually involved Bucky. There is no debate here, Bucky is established as being as stronger and faster then several Olympic level characters, as well as being the equal of several characters who themselves have been stated on panel as being peak human. What more do you want?

Pure humans can have super strength in comics, and some rare ones do. Kingpin and Bane are strong enough to causally rip a mans arm off while shaking their hands, that is superhuman strength. Is it explained? In the case of Kingpin, no, but that hardly matters. Frank Castle is a pure human and he has superhuman damage soak. There are limits to the human body, when a human character tanks a frag grenade point break (ie Frank Castle) and is fine, that doesn't raise the damage soak bar for the collective human population, what it does is make Franks Castle a freakish outlier with durability and damage soak several orders of magnitude above human. We don't need to know the reason why a character has superhuman abilities to diagnose it as superhuman.

feats put Ollie and Wildcat at peak human. Ted damage soak and strength could be considered superhuman as well, but according to you theyre simply "olympic level". Thats only a often used term in dcu handbooks. It doesnt hold more weight than whats displayed in comics.

Ted is pushing superhuman damage soak, and peak human strength, but Olympic in all other areas. Ollie is Olympic across the board.

^ I agree here. The term gets throw around too often, when there are truly only a few characters who are truly peak human a crossed the board. Batman is of them. Ted and Ollie aren't. Even Dick has peak human stats when compared to Ollie. But lets say that Ted or Ollie is peak human in all stats for the sake of their argument i.e. namorsubby and h1a8. Cap is still levels above that. But some don't seem to acknowledge it.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Nothing you are saying makes any sense... did you just have stroke or something?

All of Bucky's feats since being reintroduced into continuity as the Winter Soldier are peak human, and everything before that was severally retcon'd by Brubaker's updated origins for Bucky. I'm not even entirely sure what you are trying to say (because it doesn't make any sense), but what ever it is, you are wrong. You seem to be under the impression that it is impossible for a character to reach peak human status without aid, but you're wrong. Three or four months ago current Black Panther stated plain as day on panel "I'm peak human." Dude even used the words peak human for Christ's sake. Then there was that previously mentioned Batroc story out around the same time, that actually involved Bucky. There is no debate here, Bucky is established as being as stronger and faster then several Olympic level characters, as well as being the equal of several characters who themselves have been stated on panel as being peak human. What more do you want?

Pure humans can have super strength in comics, and some rare ones do. Kingpin and Bane are strong enough to causally rip a mans arm off while shaking their hands, that is superhuman strength. Is it explained? In the case of Kingpin, no, but that hardly matters. Frank Castle is a pure human and he has superhuman damage soak. There are limits to the human body, when a human character tanks a frag grenade point break (ie Frank Castle) and is fine, that doesn't raise the damage soak bar for the collective human population, what it does is make Franks Castle a freakish outlier with durability and damage soak several orders of magnitude above human. We don't need to know the reason why a character has superhuman abilities to diagnose it as superhuman. I see you are making your arguments stronger. You are trying to upgrade from the irrelevant weak sauce. The only characters that have been said to be peak human is classic Captain America and Black panther as you said. But this is because of outside agents. Now exactly how did Bucky prove he was stronger or is strong as an enhanced BP?

First of all, my definition of Super human is the comic one, not the real life definition (as you are using). In comics, a pure human can rip thick steel in half without being super human. In real life they would be classified as being super human (but not in a comic). The definition of peak human strength is as strong as a comic pure human can possibly be and any more added strength classifies them as super human (not human anymore).

Again, I repeat:

Last thing, pure humans in comics CAN'T HAVE COMIC SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH for they are not super human. A super human feat by a pure human in comics doesn't classify one as a super human nor as a peak human.

This whole argument is moot anyway. Does Bucky feats make him stronger than real humans? Of course they do (who feats doesn't?). Does Bucky feats make him as strong as a comic human can possibly be? Hell no! Thus he is not comic peak human.

There are several comic pure humans that are clearly stronger than Bucky. If there were no comic pure humans that were significantly stronger and Bucky received an outside agent then we can indeed say he is peak human.


All heroes in comics have Super human feats. But does that make them super human? You can't pick and choose where you can classify a character if they have feats that contradict. You must go by writer's intentions. It's logically impossible for a comic pure human to be a comic super human in a comic without aid.

Originally posted by h1a8
I see you are making your arguments stronger. You are trying to upgrade from the irrelevant weak sauce. The only characters that have been said to be peak human is classic Captain America and Black panther as you said. But this is because of outside agents. Now exactly how did Bucky prove he was stronger or is strong as an enhanced BP?

First of all, my definition of Super human is the comic one, not the real life definition (as you are using). In comics, a pure human can rip thick steel in half without being super human. In real life they would be classified as being super human (but not in a comic). The definition of peak human strength is as strong as a comic pure human can possibly be and any more added strength classifies them as super human (not human anymore).

Again, I repeat:

Last thing, pure humans in comics CAN'T HAVE COMIC SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH for they are not super human. A super human feat by a pure human in comics doesn't classify one as a super human nor as a peak human.

This whole argument is moot anyway. Does Bucky feats make him stronger than real humans? Of course they do (who feats doesn't?). Does Bucky feats make him as strong as a comic human can possibly be? Hell no! Thus he is not comic peak human.

There are several comic pure humans that are clearly stronger than Bucky. If there were no comic pure humans that were significantly stronger and Bucky received an outside agent then we can indeed say he is peak human.


All heroes in comics have Super human feats. But does that make them super human? You can't pick and choose where you can classify a character if they have feats that contradict. You must go by writer's intentions. It's logically impossible for a comic pure human to be a comic super human in a comic without aid.

Batman has lifted over 1000 lbs. on panel.

Batman has flung an 600 lbs. man-bat and bench pressed a coffin lid while inside through 600 lbs. of dirt.

And Bruce isn't classified as superhuman either. But he does have feats that are borderline. But he's definitely peak human.

I would also have to agree that Bucky is peak human considering all his years of rigorous training and combat experience add in with his feats.

Originally posted by h1a8
I see you are making your arguments stronger. You are trying to upgrade from the irrelevant weak sauce. The only characters that have been said to be peak human is classic Captain America and Black panther as you said. But this is because of outside agents. Now exactly how did Bucky prove he was stronger or is strong as an enhanced BP?

First of all, my definition of Super human is the comic one, not the real life definition (as you are using). In comics, a pure human can rip thick steel in half without being super human. In real life they would be classified as being super human (but not in a comic). The definition of peak human strength is as strong as a comic pure human can possibly be and any more added strength classifies them as super human (not human anymore).

Again, I repeat:

Last thing, pure humans in comics CAN'T HAVE COMIC SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH for they are not super human. A super human feat by a pure human in comics doesn't classify one as a super human nor as a peak human.

This whole argument is moot anyway. Does Bucky feats make him stronger than real humans? Of course they do (who feats doesn't?). Does Bucky feats make him as strong as a comic human can possibly be? Hell no! Thus he is not comic peak human.

There are several comic pure humans that are clearly stronger than Bucky. If there were no comic pure humans that were significantly stronger and Bucky received an outside agent then we can indeed say he is peak human.


All heroes in comics have Super human feats. But does that make them super human? You can't pick and choose where you can classify a character if they have feats that contradict. You must go by writer's intentions. It's logically impossible for a comic pure human to be a comic super human in a comic without aid.

Captain America is supposed to be the pinnacle of theoretical human potential, which isn't quite the same as peak human. He is as fast and strong as the human body will ever evolve to be, a couple hundred (maybe a thousand) years from now he would considered be peak human, but right now he superhuman.

Black Panther is no longer enhanced by the Heart Shaped Herb, and hasn't been for more then a year now. The HSH enhanced BP's attributes to superhuman levels on par with Captain America, Wolverine and Kraven, currently T'Challa is only peak human. It's been stated on panel.

Bucky isn't as strong as Steve and HSH Black Panther, because they are both low level superhuman.

Pure humans can potentially, and do have superhuman abilities. Flex Mentallo, is just a regular human who can reality warp by flexing his muscles. That's a superhuman ability. The source of the ability is irrelevant in identifying whether or not it is superhuman. Kingpin rips off peoples arms, his strength is blatantly superhuman. Why does he have superhuman strength? Maybe he is a once a century genetic freak? Maybe he is on steroids? Maybe his body naturally produces elevated levels of testosterone and adrenalin? Doesn't really mater, he is superhuman regardless of the explanation as to why.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Captain America is supposed to be the pinnacle of theoretical human potential, which isn't quite the same as peak human. He is as fast and strong as the human body will ever evolve to be, a couple hundred (maybe a thousand) years from now he would considered be peak human, but right now he superhuman.

Black Panther is no longer enhanced by the Heart Shaped Herb, and hasn't been for more then a year now. The HSH enhanced BP's attributes to superhuman levels on par with Captain America, Wolverine and Kraven, currently T'Challa is only peak human. It's been stated on panel.

Bucky isn't as strong as Steve and HSH Black Panther, because they are both low level superhuman.

Pure humans can potentially, and do have superhuman abilities. Flex Mentallo, is just a regular human who can reality warp by flexing his muscles. That's a superhuman ability. The source of the ability is irrelevant in identifying whether or not it is superhuman. Kingpin rips off peoples arms, his strength is blatantly superhuman. Why does he have superhuman strength? Maybe he is a once a century genetic freak? Maybe he is on steroids? Maybe his body naturally produces elevated levels of testosterone and adrenalin? Doesn't really mater, he is superhuman regardless of the explanation as to why.
You say super human ONLY because no real life human can do such things. Well who cares, if other humans can possibly do it in comics then those feats aren't super human by comic standards. Do you know what super human means? It means something that NO pure human can possibly do.


No real life human can do anything super human. That would be a contradiction. No comic pure human can do anything super human. That would be a contradiction. If a pure human in comics where to throw someone in space then it is either PIS or simply the feat wasn't super human. This is an exaggerated point, but as long as you understand it.


I have to go. I'll give more later.

The human body doesn't have limitless potential, there are certain biological limits to the human body. The strength Kingpin is displayed as having is impossible. Even if a person could use all their muscle fibers at once (which is impossible) to peak efficiency, they still wouldn't be as strong as Kingpin and the strain of that strength would rip apart the muscles, tear tendons off of bone and damage the skeleton and joints. Kingpin operates above well human potential, and he does it with no negative side effects. He has superhuman strength. Kingpin's strength isn't possible by comic human standards, it is possible by Kingpin standards, because - for whatever reason - he is superhuman. His strength is well above the established limits of even comic book peak humans like Daredevil and current Panther, who are stated - on panel - as begin peak human.

Capt is likely stronger then Wildcat and Green Arrow combind.........

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The human body doesn't have limitless potential, there are certain biological limits to the human body. The strength Kingpin is displayed as having is impossible. Even if a person could use all their muscle fibers at once (which is impossible) to peak efficiency, they still wouldn't be as strong as Kingpin and the strain of that strength would rip apart the muscles, tear tendons off of bone and damage the skeleton and joints. Kingpin operates above well human potential, and he does it with no negative side effects. He has superhuman strength. Kingpin's strength isn't possible by comic human standards, it is possible by Kingpin standards, because - for whatever reason - he is superhuman. His strength is well above the established limits of even comic book peak humans like Daredevil and current Panther, who are stated - on panel - as begin peak human. NO! It's a comic. How can a comic show something that's impossible even to the comic. This would be a contradiction. If a pure human can possibly fly in a comic then that is not a super human ability in a comic (it is either PIS or a possible human ability).

Now we can except Kingpin's feats as PIS or we can say that, in a comic, a pure human could possibly pull something like that off. If the latter, then it becomes a human feat, and not a super human one.

You keep arguing about what's possible and impossible according to real life standards and not within comic standards. In this forum we have PIS if a feat(s) is too extreme. Otherwise, we just assume by suspension of disbelief that it is possible to achieve by a human being. Peak human is represents the strongest a human can possibly be before being super human. Hence, the word "Peak".

Lastly, Spidey has shown strength feats that should tear up his muscle fibers or crush his bones. It happened as Bucky's feats happened.

Is H1 trying to argue about comic logic over real life logic (even though he knows nothing of either)?

Oh, this is rich

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Is H1 trying to argue about comic logic over real life logic (even though he knows nothing of either)?

Oh, this is rich


My point is that if Bucky's feats classify him as a peak human then Spidey's feats should classify him as a class 100.

To prove bias, Shrank classifies Logan at a minimum of class 5 based off his top feats (which are about class 5). Well Spidey has far more feats over 20 tons (class 100 at the highest) and he still consider Spidey at class 20.

Captain America will beat WC 7-8/10.

Cap will definitely beat Ollie 8/10

Together with effort Cap can win 6-7/10

Originally posted by h1a8
NO! It's a comic. How can a comic show something that's impossible even to the comic. This would be a contradiction. If a pure human can possibly fly in a comic then that is not a super human ability in a comic (it is either PIS or a possible human ability).

Now we can except Kingpin's feats as PIS or we can say that, in a comic, a pure human could possibly pull something like that off. If the latter, then it becomes a human feat, and not a super human one.

You keep arguing about what's possible and impossible according to real life standards and not within comic standards. In this forum we have PIS if a feat(s) is too extreme. Otherwise, we just assume by suspension of disbelief that it is possible to achieve by a human being. Peak human is represents the strongest a human can possibly be before being super human. Hence, the word "Peak".

Lastly, Spidey has shown strength feats that should tear up his muscle fibers or crush his bones. It happened as Bucky's feats happened.

Kingpin is an outlier, he is an otherwise impossible exception to the rule. He operates above the limits of the human body. There are characters who are established as being peak human and Kingpin is stronger then them. It's pretty simple math. Kingpin is a superhuman. He is a lone specimen that for what ever reason is capable of surpassing the limits of human strength. It's not PIS, its the fundamental essence of the character. Just because his strength didn't come from a lab experiment doesn't make it any less extraordinary or unnatural. The limits of the human body aren't arbitrary, they are defined even in comics. We know what characters are peak human, we've been told plain as day many times, and Kingpin is stronger then them, and as such he has superhuman strength. Kingpin having superhuman strength doesn't invalidate the fact that Bucky has been shown and said to be peak human.

Spidy occasionally busts out some "mother-lifting-a-car-off-of-child" style hysterical strength and lifts some heavy shit (usually supporting the weight of building or tunnel to save civies from being crushed), but that is nothing to do with his standard operating levels or Bucky's for that mater. Bucky is peak human the vast majority of the time, with rare feats of superhuman strength just like Spider-man is class 20 the vast majority of the time with rare feats of vast superhuman strength. If Spider-man is class 50, then Bucky is superhuman.

Originally posted by h1a8
My point is that if Bucky's feats classify him as a peak human then Spidey's feats should classify him as a class 100.

To prove bias, Shrank classifies Logan at a minimum of class 5 based off his top feats (which are about class 5). Well Spidey has far more feats over 20 tons (class 100 at the highest) and he still consider Spidey at class 20. Ya well, Shrank is gay which goes hand in hand with being a Loganrine fan

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Kingpin is an outlier, he is an otherwise impossible exception to the rule. He operates above the limits of the human body. There are characters who are established as being peak human and Kingpin is stronger then them. It's pretty simple math. Kingpin is a superhuman. He is a lone specimen that for what ever reason is capable of surpassing the limits of human strength. It's not PIS, its the fundamental essence of the character. Just because his strength didn't come from a lab experiment doesn't make it any less extraordinary or unnatural. The limits of the human body aren't arbitrary, they are defined even in comics. We know what characters are peak human, we've been told plain as day many times, and Kingpin is stronger then them, and as such he has superhuman strength. Kingpin having superhuman strength doesn't invalidate the fact that Bucky has been shown and said to be peak human.

Spidy occasionally busts out some "mother-lifting-a-car-off-of-child" style hysterical strength and lifts some heavy shit (usually supporting the weight of building or tunnel to save civies from being crushed), but that is nothing to do with his standard operating levels or Bucky's for that mater. Bucky is peak human the vast majority of the time, with rare feats of superhuman strength just like Spider-man is class 20 the vast majority of the time with rare feats of vast superhuman strength. If Spider-man is class 50, then Bucky is superhuman. Outliers are irrelevant to this discussion. This isn't about statistics. It is about real comic characters that exist or have existed. Is Kingpin a pure human? If so, then a human in comics can possibly do what he did (or it is merely PIS).

This has nothing to do with my point but I think you are mistaken. Bucky is not peak human a majority of the time. It is rare that he shows peak human feats (I'm talking about current Bucky and not the retconned one). He has some peak human feats but those are rare in respect to his total appearances. Now I'm referring to strength, not agility or anything else.

Logan is peak human a vast majority of the time as well. Showing me several of his super human feats won't change that. But you still classify him as super human. I don't have a problem with it, just your hypocritical logic to reach the conclusion.

H1 ur simply full of crap. Bucky is with out a doubt a peak-human and has been repeatedly billed as one, as have characters like daredevil and current BP.

Also Wolverine has neven once in a comic been billed or remotely suggested to be peak human. So ur full of crap as usual. He has however numerous times been either state and implied to be superhuman phsyically.


Also how the hell can u even argue that capt not superhuman? He been stated as having the strength of a platoon of men.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Is H1 trying to argue about comic logic over real life logic (even though he knows nothing of either)?

Oh, this is rich



agreed.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
H1 ur simply full of crap. Bucky is with out a doubt a peak-human and has been repeatedly billed as one, as have characters like daredevil and current BP.

Also Wolverine has neven once in a comic been billed or remotely suggested to be peak human. So ur full of crap as usual. He has however numerous times been either state and implied to be superhuman phsyically.


Also how the hell can u even argue that capt not superhuman? He been stated as having the strength of a platoon of men.

Daredevil isn't a pure human and neither is BP. Even so, if they are peak human then why do there exist other humans in comics significantly stronger? Because they are not peak human.

Wolverine always appear to be peak human at most and olympic human at least. Who cares about what someone is billed. Spidey isn't billed a class 20 in the comic.

Of course there are numerous times for Wolverine but those times in comparison to his career are super rare.

Originally posted by h1a8
Daredevil isn't a pure human and neither is BP. Even so, if they are peak human then why do there exist other humans in comics significantly stronger? Because they are not peak human.

Wolverine always appear to be peak human at most and olympic human at least. Who cares about what someone is billed. Spidey isn't billed a class 20 in the comic.

Of course there are numerous times for Wolverine but those times in comparison to his career are super rare.
ur as ignorant as always, feel that I be putting u back on ignore in short order. Both DD and Black Panther are pure humans, the fact u find that remotely debatable makes u very much incapable of debating this topic. Those people who are significantly stronger then they are, are superhuman genius. I mean how difficult is that to grasp?

No he doesent, which again proves how incapable of argueing thos topic u are. U lack even basic knowledge of the characters. Please show me were wolverine in comic story has ever once been stated or even suggested as peak human. Common champ I be waiting. Spidy is billed as having signicant superhuman strength however. Wolverine is billed with also possessing superhuman strength. His feats supports this champ.

No there not at all. He even been stated several times to have to tap normal humans in fear of caving in there skulls, even to the point of holding back agaisnt other superhumans like Night crawler and Beast.

Originally posted by h1a8
Wolverine always appear to be peak human at most and olympic human at least.

Always? So you must have loads of examples then?

You're just wrong here, Wolverine is superhumanly strong and that's how it's shown in comics. But feel free to prove me wrong.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Always? So you must have loads of examples then?

You're just wrong here, Wolverine is superhumanly strong and that's how it's shown in comics. But feel free to prove me wrong.

Which is even funnier, becuase even from his inception he was suppose to be superhuman across the boards and they were his main powers.