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Originally posted by Darth Angel
Dude, to see someone using Crime & Punishment as an example in this forum amazes me. Yeah, you are right, the problem is that you are using a masterpiece to compare with a movie with a very weak plot.

But I know what you mean, Raskolnikov's fall is typical of many great people who had the best of the intentions in the begining but in the end they thought themselves as above everything and everybody else, slowly becoming something they couldn't even recognize in the mirror.

But that's a good plot. And this is star wars...

When you have three movies to show Skywalker falling into darkness and becoming the legendary Darth Vader, there is great potential for an incredible story.

And haha sorry, I just read Crime & Punishment last week, and the themes of the novel are still in my head. I couldn't resist.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
When you have three movies to show Skywalker falling into darkness and becoming the legendary Darth Vader, there is great potential for an incredible story.

And haha sorry, I just read Crime & Punishment last week, and the themes of the novel are still in my head. I couldn't resist.

I know that, but it was GL's lack of vision that made this situation. In fact, all the concept that you can be 100% pure and turn to 100% dark is a completely fail plot. No one goes from one of the lightest guys around to mass murderer in less then 5 minutes... Yeah, I know that Anakin was ALREADY a mass murder before ROTS, but still, the plot is so undeveloped it actually hurts...

Ahhh....
EU anyone?

Originally posted by JediRobin23
Ahhh....
EU anyone?

Really, what is the difference? It's not that these forums are very busy nowadays...

Originally posted by JediRobin23
Ahhh....
EU anyone?

I thought about posting it in the EU, but since I'm talking about PT Anakin, I thought it could also go here. My bad.

I thought Revan was a chick?

Nah, he's a man. Exile is a girl.

Revan is EU - moving

I also always thought Revan was intended to be the chosen one, except when Bioware screwed that up and the Sith returned with TOR.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I've always thought this. Frankly, since '05 I thought Revan was meant to be the Chosen One of his era, and that other EU characters would follow suit except for the post-OT era which is FUBAR.

However, I heavily dispute this:

Revan, on the other hand, is just as talented as Anakin (except in Force potential, since Anakin had more midi-chlorians).

Anakin's measurement of midi-chlorians is only ever used in context of the PT. Midi-chlorians literally have no mention, bearing, or source in material before the PT, and therefore it is unreasonable to conclude Anakin's measurements are for all time. This isn't to diminish Anakin so much as to point out that his uniqueness is era-specific, and earlier Force users may have similar or even higher potentials and it would still not harm the storyline.

Also, to compare Revan and Anakin, both are mechanics of some skill, both are great pilots, both have strategic knowledge (although Revan is clearly better at this, in Jedi Trial Anakin shows considerable talent as well, he's just too impatient to focus on it). Both are described by those around them as brimming with the Force, peerless, etc. Both have mysterious origins, lacking father figures. Both of them brought balance to the Force for their era, albeit not in a way either of them expected. Both of them overthrew a dominant evil empire of Sith by a combination of fortune, Republic desperation armada, and an epic lightsaber battle in view of it all. Etc. etc. You could probably find a more detailed checklist elsewhere if you look hard enough.

Unless stated otherwise, I would speculate the Chosen One prophecy as being first formulated rather recently in the Order's history (perhaps a thousand years before Skywalker), in which case, there is nothing against saying there could have been other 'Chosen One'-esque individuals prior to the first mentioning of this prophecy. Therefore, I would agree with you that Revan was probably a Chosen One of his era. However, the counterargument is that the prophecy states that individual would be, "A vessel of pure Force.. more powerful than any Jedi in history." In which, it would only be referring to one individual (Anakin Skywalker).

And I agree with your second paragraph. Revan is crafted as an Anakin Skywalker 2.0.

However, I don't understand your midi-chlorian/PT argument. The prophecy refers to Anakin. The "vessel of pure Force" refers to him having the highest midi-chlorian count. By having the highest midi-chlorian count, he has the highest potential of any Force user, meaning he had the chance of being "more powerful than any Jedi in history."

Even if it's only referred to the context of the PT, the measurements were the highest of any Jedi up to that point. Therefore, Skywalker had higher Force potential than anybody prior to him.

Perhaps I didn't understand your argument. If I didn't, please explain again.

F*cking midi-chlorians. Apparently in those "zombie" Star Wars novels, Vader was creating a Sith virus that would affect midi-chlorians so as to gain immortality. The final step in which was to eat a living Jedi's heart...

I think Janus was implying that, just because Anakin had the highest midi-chlorian count ever recorded (and specifically the highest of his era ), doesn't necessarily mean that he in fact did have the highest count, ever. Ever.

If my careful and exhaustive skimming of Wookiee's page on midi's has relented any info, it's that even before the Jedi Order was founded, Force sects were studying midi's. And apparently: "The Sith knew of midi-chlorians by c. 4,645 BBY, when Darth Drear utilized them in his experiments on immortality." But whether the Jedi actively/frequently conducted midi-chlorian counts is unknown.


Regardless, I very much doubt Lucas will ever let another character except his beloved Anakin have the most midi's in history. The man ordered the death of an EU character to protect his, he'd never let someone tarnish both his Vader and his ingenious concept of bacterial magic.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
F*cking midi-chlorians. Apparently in those "zombie" Star Wars novels, Vader was creating a Sith virus that would affect midi-chlorians so as to gain immortality. The final step in which was to eat a living Jedi's heart...

lol. That sounds awful... Glad I never wasted my time reading those.

They're actual new novels too. I figured a zombie storyline would have been done in a non-canon short story or comic in the 90's, but these days...


Glad I don't bother with the novels.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
F*cking midi-chlorians. Apparently in those "zombie" Star Wars novels, Vader was creating a Sith virus that would affect midi-chlorians so as to gain immortality. The final step in which was to eat a living Jedi's heart...

I think Janus was implying that, just because Anakin had the highest midi-chlorian count ever recorded (and specifically the highest of his era ), doesn't necessarily mean that he in fact did have the highest count, ever. Ever.

If my careful and exhaustive skimming of Wookiee's page on midi's has relented any info, it's that even before the Jedi Order was founded, Force sects were studying midi's. And apparently: "The Sith knew of midi-chlorians by c. 4,645 BBY, when Darth Drear utilized them in his experiments on immortality." But whether the Jedi actively/frequently conducted midi-chlorian counts is unknown.


Regardless, I very much doubt Lucas will ever let another character except his beloved Anakin have the most midi's in history. The man ordered the death of an EU character to protect his, he'd never let someone tarnish both his Vader and his ingenious concept of bacterial magic.

Your last paragraph says it all. That and the prophecy more or less establish Anakin having the highest Force potential of all time.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Your last paragraph says it all. That and the prophecy more or less establish Anakin having the highest Force potential of all time.

I find your absolute faith disturbing.

1. Midi-chlorians are studied by various sects before the movie era. However, they are not explicitly recorded or used by the Jedi prior to the Battle of Ruusan, 1000 BBY.

This naturally leads to the conclusion that Anakin's high rating is only verifiable among the Jedi post Ruusan. There's no evidence anywhere stating that it was a Jedi Order SoP for millenia before that, nor that records which Qui-Gon referenced would include non-Jedi users.

This leaves the door open considerably.

2. George Lucas is less aware of EU declarations of power than rich people are aware that K-Mart still exists. He has explicitly stated that Anakin is the strongest in his own movie storyline and has not seen fit to attempt an absolute over EU, which he states is "not his world". He explicitly only prevents usage of names and deaths of movie characters unless approved by himself.

So again, back to square one. Anakin's parasite level is not an absolute piece of evidence. And even if it was, his showings are lower than most EU Force users. Potential is a glass that must be filled, not a measurement of current power.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I find your absolute faith disturbing.

1. Midi-chlorians are studied by various sects before the movie era. However, they are not explicitly recorded or used by the Jedi prior to the Battle of Ruusan, 1000 BBY.

This naturally leads to the conclusion that Anakin's high rating is only verifiable among the Jedi post Ruusan. There's no evidence anywhere stating that it was a Jedi Order SoP for millenia before that, nor that records which Qui-Gon referenced would include non-Jedi users.

This leaves the door open considerably.

2. George Lucas is less aware of EU declarations of power than rich people are aware that K-Mart still exists. He has explicitly stated that Anakin is the strongest in his own movie storyline and has not seen fit to attempt an absolute over EU, which he states is "not his world". He explicitly only prevents usage of names and deaths of movie characters unless approved by himself.

So again, back to square one. Anakin's parasite level is not an absolute piece of evidence. And even if it was, his showings are lower than most EU Force users. Potential is a glass that must be filled, not a measurement of current power.

1. Possibly. However Skywalker was likely conceived by midi-chlorians themselves ("vessel of pure Force", a phenomena never been heard before in the Jedi Order (meaning his body is inundated with midi-chlorians). Furthermore, his maximum Force potential is said to be twice that of Sidious, who is arguably the most powerful Sith of all time. His midi-chlorian count is also higher than Yoda's, who is said to have been the mightiest Jedi in the Order up to the PT era. Unless you can argue Yoda hadn't attained his potential yet, it's positive no known prior Jedi had a Force potential higher than Anakin's. Finally, Luke Skywalker is said to have a Force potential roughly on par with his father's, and he ends up as arguably the strongest Jedi of all time. Therefore, the Chosen One's Force potential must have been off-the-charts.

These three points demonstrate that Anakin Skywalker, more or less, probably had the highest Force potential.

2. More Lucas bullsh1t to me. Even if he doesn't see it as "his world," he still green-lights everything that happens in the EU, and periodically intervenes in EU development.

3. Anakin's ragestomp of Dooku was a pretty good showing, among other things.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
2. More Lucas bullsh1t to me. Even if he doesn't see it as "his world," he still green-lights everything that happens in the EU, and periodically intervenes in EU development. I highly, highly doubt that.

I think "intoxicating, unnatural" attachment, is a decent synonym for "obsession".




Ragedy?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I think "intoxicating, unnatural" attachment, is a decent synonym for "obsession".

Yeah but the way the sentence is written seems to me like he's claiming ALL attachments are "intoxicating" and "unnatural" which of course is complete nonsense.

I'm not saying that's what he meant, but it reads that way to me.


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Ragedy?

This may come as a shock to you, but I'm not perfect. I sometimes make spelling mistakes when I type.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Yeah but the way the sentence is written seems to me like he's claiming ALL attachments are "intoxicating" and "unnatural" which of course is complete nonsense.

I'm not saying that's what he meant, but it reads that way to me.Huh...




Originally posted by chilled monkey
This may come as a shock to you, but I'm not perfect. I sometimes make spelling mistakes when I type. So... what was the word. Raggedy? As in, Raggedy Ann?

chilled monkey
This may come as a shock to you, but I'm not perfect. I sometimes make spelling mistakes when I type.
It's been seven years. You will learn to laugh at our jokes.

Gideon, STFU.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So... what was the word. Raggedy? As in, Raggedy Ann?

Tragedy. Dunkass.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So... what was the word. Raggedy? As in, Raggedy Ann?

Points for thinking outside the box, but no. It was tragedy.

Good try though.

Originally posted by Eminence
It's been seven years. You will learn to laugh at our jokes.

Sorry.

Originally posted by Eminence
Gideon, STFU.

lolwut

Originally posted by Korto Vos
1. Possibly. However Skywalker was likely conceived by midi-chlorians themselves ("vessel of pure Force", a phenomena never been heard before in the Jedi Order (meaning his body is inundated with midi-chlorians). Furthermore, his maximum Force potential is said to be twice that of Sidious, who is arguably the most powerful Sith of all time. His midi-chlorian count is also higher than Yoda's, who is said to have been the mightiest Jedi in the Order up to the PT era. Unless you can argue Yoda hadn't attained his potential yet, it's positive no known prior Jedi had a Force potential higher than Anakin's. Finally, Luke Skywalker is said to have a Force potential roughly on par with his father's, and he ends up as arguably the strongest Jedi of all time. Therefore, the Chosen One's Force potential must have been off-the-charts.

These three points demonstrate that Anakin Skywalker, more or less, probably had the highest Force potential.

In The Approaching Storm, it's noted that Anakin had the potential to be destined for greatness, but lacked the discipline, sacrifice, and focus to achieve his true potential. While not an absolute statement, it does correctly reflect that Anakin Skywalker, potential or no, had a long way to go before he filled his cup.

And considering Skywalker's feats are easily replicated and/or surpassed regularly by some folks right up to RotS when he becomes half the man he used to be, I'd say his potential warrants nothing.



No really, he doesn't care. The most EU he's been immersed in was Aayla Secura, and he picked her out based on looks alone. He does not follow it and he does not lay down framework or absolutes for it. If he did, it would be less of a shitstorm than it already is, of course.



It's his highest showing in many ways, seeing as he was unable to replicate it before or since. Obi-Wan, on a tier well below Dooku, was able to stalemate Anakin in both Force and saber combat, even though Anakin with his OMFG Furce potenshul and 1337 sabur skilz had the clear advantage.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
In The Approaching Storm, it's noted that Anakin had the potential to be destined for greatness, but lacked the discipline, sacrifice, and focus to achieve his true potential. While not an absolute statement, it does correctly reflect that Anakin Skywalker, potential or no, had a long way to go before he filled his cup.

And considering Skywalker's feats are easily replicated and/or surpassed regularly by some folks right up to RotS when he becomes half the man he used to be, I'd say his potential warrants nothing.



No really, he doesn't care. The most EU he's been immersed in was Aayla Secura, and he picked her out based on looks alone. He does not follow it and he does not lay down framework or absolutes for it. If he did, it would be less of a shitstorm than it already is, of course.



It's his highest showing in many ways, seeing as he was unable to replicate it before or since. Obi-Wan, on a tier well below Dooku, was able to stalemate Anakin in both Force and saber combat, even though Anakin with his OMFG Furce potenshul and 1337 sabur skilz had the clear advantage.

1. LOL, then I rest my case? The whole origin of this mini-debate was your comment that Anakin may not have had the highest Force potential. I don't really care how far he had to go before his cup was filled. My whole argument was that Revan was as talented or even more talented than Anakin except that Skywalker had ultimately greater Force potential.

2. Well, he's still the dictator of LucasArts and Star Wars. If he stated that a supermassive black hole Lv. 1000 ate up that entire galaxy after the Cade Skywalker storyline, then that's what would happen.

3. People in this forum give no credit to Obi-Wan, man. I swear, I probably debated for him against some of you guys years back, but the opinions still stayed the same after I returned.

He's an amazing defensive swordsman who got Force pwned by Dooku?

*sigh* Man, I don't bother anymore.

Sure, Dooku is better than Kenobi. But the whole mentality that Dooku can beat Kenobi in seconds irritates me to the core.

He's a really amazing defensive fighter who got Force pwned by Dooku and thats totally nothing to be ashamed of?

I'm just going work on my Yoda argument now. I have to make up something in 40 min for my opening post.

Good luck. Voldemort FTW.

Gee thanks :/

And I thought all of you would be supporting me.

I am.

Though seriously Quan's a fvcking terrible debator. You're gonna easily win.

I'm pretty rusty. And without EU on my side, it's going to be a bit iffy.

Originally posted by Korto Vos


I'm pretty rusty. And without EU on my side, it's going to be a bit iffy.

In Dark Rendezvous, Yoda seals a vaccum in space using the Force.

Vacuum > Voldepussy. Just saying.

Yeah, but this is movie-only. There is no demonstration of Yoda sealing a vacuum in the films.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.

Also, Yoda in the films demonstrates the ability to fight faster than Volemort can react. QED.

Well, my opening argument is in the Movie Versus Forum. I think it's okay for an hour's work.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Well, my opening argument is in the Movie Versus Forum. I think it's okay for an hour's work.

Meh, I can't believe you accepted the challenge.

URL plz? I'm severely lazy.

Why not?


BTW, it's not really good. But I only had movies to work with, and I can only argue for Yoda.

Let's see how Quanchi responds.

I imagine it would be headache inducing.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
URL plz? I'm severely lazy.

Url? Its in teh ****ing movie forum. Its 3 clicks away. Not even Gid is that lazy and I've read his fanfic.

I'm also multitasking, and almost done with a bottle of Vodka, so it'd be nice. But if you insist, I'll look for it.

There, you lazy prick.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm also multitasking,

Masturbating and flirting with me pretty much go hand-in-hand.















pun way intended

I meant drinking and typing. It's harder than it sounds.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I meant drinking and typing.



Shit's illegal, brah.

FO reel

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
FO reel

Seriously, you're a real badass 4reel. No one will dare fvck with you on DotOR or whatever.

Fo' serious. He stole my cat just so he could say he's got my pussy.

Mr. Schmickles.

Neph has a hungry, furry pussy. Just saying.

Also, my char in DotOR is uber.

Yep, she is hungry. Be sure to feed her at least 4 times a day if you'e got the energy.

she eats penis

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yep, she is hungry. Be sure to feed her at least 4 times a day if you'e got the energy.

she eats penis

Lawl

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I imagine it would be headache inducing.


It was a bit headache inducing that I couldn't just Copy-Paste from Word. But I am sure I won't have to post something close to that length again for the rest of this debate.

It looked pretty well formatted. I regret that I didn't have a chance to post anything productive last night, but I wasn't in the frame of mind either.

Stop drinking, you fool.

Bah, I ran out last night. Stayed up until 7 playing L4D, and then passed out until 1.

I've been awake since 4:30 PM Eastern. Yesterday.

I miss sleeping. It'll be an eight PMer tonight for me, if I make it that far.

Originally posted by Eminence
if I make it that far.

I have it on good authority that you tend to come up short. sneer

Faunus, don't give in to sleep. Jedi need no sleep.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Faunus, don't give in to sleep. Jedi need no sleep.

You missed out a great opportunity to shoehorn the fate of Darth Plagueis to properly illustrate the dangers of sleep.

You've failed me.

I figured Faunus would be a do-gooder Jedi, but your example works as well.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I figured Faunus would be a do-gooder Jedi, but your example works as well.

If so, he's definitely wielding a shoto. sneer

Amusing part is, one of his Jedi characters did. PWnt!

Also, I posted in that battleground thread. I personally think Vos has it in the bag.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No really, he doesn't care. The most EU he's been immersed in was Aayla Secura, and he picked her out based on looks alone. He does not follow it and he does not lay down framework or absolutes for it. If he did, it would be less of a shitstorm than it already is, of course.

You must be joking. If Lucas was laying down frameworks or absolutes then the EU would be utter garbage, just like the Prequel Trilogy.

As it is the EU is overall pretty good, due to being written by people with actual talent (something Lucas lost years ago).

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Amusing part is, one of his Jedi characters did. PWnt!

Also, I posted in that battleground thread. I personally think Vos has it in the bag.

That's comforting to hear. But Quanchi is posting his opening argument now- he might turn back the tides possibly.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
You must be joking. If Lucas was laying down frameworks or absolutes then the EU would be utter garbage, just like the Prequel Trilogy.

As it is the EU is overall pretty good, due to being written by people with actual talent (something Lucas lost years ago).

Be that as it may, at least it'd be consistent garbage. Some EU is good, some is utter crap. And as a whole it meshes like oil and water.



I'm going to read it here in a sec.