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ZH Parallax
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/8190/560581-glssua0012oy6pd6_large.jpg
Ion
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/22385/404039-75754-kyle-rayner_large.jpg
White Lantern Sinestro
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/57606/1164536-green_lantern__52_011_12_large.jpg
Larfleeze
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/15297/613311-agent_orange_large.jpg

vs

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/9116/522464-53_large.jpg

Lucifer and Michael for the win and a high majority at that, 9-10/10.

Either Lucifer or Michael would win in a spitey fashion. Both of them together is overkill.

Originally posted by Galan007
Either Lucifer or Michael would win in a spitey fashion. Both of them together is overkill.

Lucifer or Michael alone would stomp.

Lucifer or Michael destroy them.

poor lanterns

Lanterns, easily.

ZH Parallax was having a go at Spectre and Ion was a beast. I question why larfleeze and sinestro are here.
Lucifer and Michael take it, but its hard fought.

Originally posted by Galan007
Either Lucifer or Michael would win in a spitey fashion. Both of them together is overkill.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Lanterns, easily. I honestly didn't expect you to say any different quan...But ur wrong.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
I honestly didn't expect you to say any different quan...But ur wrong. Think spear by Sandolphon easily owning Michael who is far more powerful than Lucy. This team is done for.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Think spear by Sandolphon easily owning Michael who is far more powerful than Lucy. This team is done for. He didn't fight back because if he let himself die all of creation would be wiped away. and he'd simply revive after that. plus lucifer said himself how Michael could have ended the entire war himself if he had wanted to easily but he chose not to out of respect for his brethren or something. In addition, he's not alone. with lucifer on his side the team is god essentially. God's will and power together. the lanterns have no hope of winning. it would take some of God's power to beat the both of them together. Your point is moot sir.

The angels win easily

Originally posted by quanchi112
Lanterns, easily.

http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/attentionwhore.jpg

Originally posted by Superherovandal
He didn't fight back because if he let himself die all of creation would be wiped away. and he'd simply revive after that. plus lucifer said himself how Michael could have ended the entire war himself if he had wanted to easily but he chose not to out of respect for his brethren or something. In addition, he's not alone. with lucifer on his side the team is god essentially. God's will and power together. the lanterns have no hope of winning. it would take some of God's power to beat the both of them together. Your point is moot sir. Yes, but he was easily defeated and taken prisoner. I don't think so. Michael doesn't just gesture beings into submission just like he didn't in the war. Lucy can be bested as well and just doesn't have the raw power of team 1.Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/attentionwhore.jpg You jealous ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, but he was easily defeated and taken prisoner. I don't think so. Michael doesn't just gesture beings into submission just like he didn't in the war. Lucy can be bested as well and just doesn't have the raw power of team 1.

Michael is raw power. He is all the power that team 1 has, and all the other power that has ever existed, exists currently, will exist, or possibly could exist. He is essentially an abstract - except unlike Marvel's abstracts he's an abstract for God's power.

His defeat and imprisonment was due to a couple factors:
1. He's ultra-passive.
2. Backstabbed
3. Sandalphon is also a top tier angel. He alone is probably at least a match for the Lantern team.

Now, I don't know where you're getting the idea that Michael is far more powerful than Luci, because they're stated literally every other panel as being equals.

Lucifer is also an abstract - this time for God's will. His ability to warp reality is infinite. He just doesn't do it that much because that would make for a really lame story and because he stated that he prefers to work through others. He could casually erase the Lantern team from existence, just as Michael could.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, but he was easily defeated and taken prisoner. I don't think so. Michael doesn't just gesture beings into submission just like he didn't in the war. Lucy can be bested as well and just doesn't have the raw power of team 1. You jealous ? I already addressed your points. You may or may not have read the story but at the very least you seem to have a deep inability to misunderstand the circumstances and read the caption boxes of the story. You've missed several points that were already addressed within the story itself.

Kyle wins.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/attentionwhore.jpg

Hahahah!

How come that in a thread like Beyonder vs. Mxy, Galan goes for Mxy because Mxy has "better feats" but in a thread like this Galan goes for the ones who have no impressive feats, and are only impressive when you scale them with other abstracts from DC?

Am I detecting a vibe of DC fanboyism? I believe I do.

Originally posted by Dr. Jackdaw
How come that in a thread like Beyonder vs. Mxy, Galan goes for Mxy because Mxy has "better feats" but in a thread like this Galan goes for the ones who have no impressive feats? And is only impressive when you scale?

Am I detecting a vibe of DC fanboyism? I believe I do.

Originally posted by Dr. Jackdaw
How come that in a thread like Beyonder vs. Mxy, Galan goes for Mxy because Mxy has "better feats" but in a thread like this Galan goes for the ones who have no impressive feats, and are only impressive when you scale them with other abstracts from DC?

Am I detecting a vibe of DC fanboyism? I believe I do.

I don't think so.

Originally posted by Cogito
Michael is raw power. He is all the power that team 1 has, and all the other power that has ever existed, exists currently, will exist, or possibly could exist. He is essentially an abstract - except unlike Marvel's abstracts he's an abstract for God's power.

His defeat and imprisonment was due to a couple factors:
1. He's ultra-passive.
2. Backstabbed
3. Sandalphon is also a top tier angel. He alone is probably at least a match for the Lantern team.

Now, I don't know where you're getting the idea that Michael is far more powerful than Luci, because they're stated literally every other panel as being equals.

Lucifer is also an abstract - this time for God's will. His ability to warp reality is infinite. He just doesn't do it that much because that would make for a really lame story and because he stated that he prefers to work through others. He could casually erase the Lantern team from existence, just as Michael could. He's more powerful than Sandolphon as well but that doesn't mean a less powerful character can't beat him. He doesn't fight like this with a gesture and thereby loses just like against Sandolphon.

1. I agree so he's not smart in battle. Kudos to me.
2.Yes, we've already established how idiotic and stupid Michael is in battle.
3.He's not that formidable in the series angels were killed by demons, etc. This guy gets easily killed and the angels weren't anywhere near as formidable in the entire run as you are trying to make them out to be since far less has killed many.

Michael is power Lucy is the will therefore Michael can defeat Lucy with a gesture along with the other angels making him far more powerful. It's right in the comic. Originally posted by Superherovandal
I already addressed your points. You may or may not have read the story but at the very least you seem to have a deep inability to misunderstand the circumstances and read the caption boxes of the story. You've missed several points that were already addressed within the story itself. I understood the story perfectly and know it's out of character for Michael to end anything with a gesture immediately and also know his durability can't take attacks from the super lanterns.

How does the lanterns win?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
How does the lanterns win? By killing them.

How?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
How? Attacking their bodies. Did you see how easily Sandolphon beat Michael ?

Not good enough.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Not good enough. So someone far weaker than Michael oneshotting him into submission isn't good enough ? Wow.

yup.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
yup. Unlike you I try to at least back up my case not dismiss an actual showing of someone far weaker than most of the super lanterns beating Michael with one attack to his backside.

With what?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
With what? A spear.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
That's what he beat him with.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Think spear by Sandolphon easily owning Michael who is far more powerful than Lucy. This team is done for.

It's a heaven spear!

You don't think a spear made in heaven is made from regular wood, do you Quan? We're probably talking, bare minimum, Spear of Destiny power levels here (Considering the only feat we have of a heaven weapon is injuring the likes of angels and Michael, I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption..)

Originally posted by cdtm
It's a heaven spear!

You don't think a spear made in heaven is made from regular wood, do you Quan? We're probably talking, bare minimum, Spear of Destiny power levels here (Considering the only feat we have of a heaven weapon is injuring the likes of angels and Michael, I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption..) It isn't that special spear or it would have been named as such. It was a spear used by the angels in battle far less powerful than Michael. It was stated Michael could beat them all with a gesture but a far weaker spear beat him with one attack.

Originally posted by Cogito

Lucifer is also an abstract - this time for God's will. His ability to warp reality is infinite. He just doesn't do it that much because that would make for a really lame story and because he stated that he prefers to work through others. He could casually erase the Lantern team from existence, just as Michael could.

Correct.

He's created concepts like time, and put souls into demons just to send them to hell... Not to mention standing in the middle of Michael exploding.

Originally posted by Dr. Jackdaw
How come that in a thread like Beyonder vs. Mxy, Galan goes for Mxy because Mxy has "better feats" but in a thread like this Galan goes for the ones who have no impressive feats, and are only impressive when you scale them with other abstracts from DC?

Am I detecting a vibe of DC fanboyism? I believe I do.

If this was Living Tribunal vs any other abstract, even ones with far superior feats (And there are many), would we even he having this conversation?

Originally posted by cdtm
Correct.

He's created concepts like time, and put souls into demons just to send them to hell... Not to mention standing in the middle of Michael exploding. That's because it was a controlled detonation that's the only reason he survived. Michael can own him with a gesture otherwise.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It isn't that special spear or it would have been named as such. It was a spear used by the angels in battle far less powerful than Michael. It was stated Michael could beat them all with a gesture but a far weaker spear beat him with one attack.

Again, do you think it was made from wood?

They don't need to claim the spear is special, because it has nothing in common with a normal spear. Nothing else made in heaven was normal, like the Basanaos cards or various books. It wasn't made on Earth, from Earthly materials, or from any known material, so it's plausible for such instruments designed for war to be capable of hurting even the top angels, Lucifer and Michael.

Originally posted by cdtm
Again, do you think it was made from wood?

They don't need to claim the spear is special, because it has nothing in common with a normal spear. Nothing else made in heaven was normal, like the Basanaos cards or various books. It wasn't made on Earth, from Earthly materials, or from any known material, so it's plausible for such instruments designed for war to be capable of hurting even the top angels, Lucifer and Michael. No, it wasn't an all powerful spear either and was far less powerful than Michael proving you don't have to be anywhere near as powerful to beat him.

My point is the spear is far less powerful than Michael so far less powerful beings can hurt and beat him as well. This you can't argue with because it's a fact.

lol

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, it wasn't an all powerful spear either and was far less powerful than Michael proving you don't have to be anywhere near as powerful to beat him.

My point is the spear is far less powerful than Michael so far less powerful beings can hurt and beat him as well. This you can't argue with because it's a fact.

How can you call it less powerful? Based on what?

The fact is, it DID hurt Michael. Which proves it WAS powerful enough to hurt him.

Sure, Michael may have been powerful enough to wipe out a horde of angels armed with heaven weapons with a gesture, but that doesn't mean they can't hurt him if they're able to reach him before he wiped them out with his demiurgic power.

Michael and Lucifer Stomp. Michael probably blinks the second he sees the lanterns and the Battle is over. Even if a Heaven Spear could harm them, where would lanterns ever get one from (that is not even factoring in how would they even get close enough to be able to use it.

Another alternative is Lucifer convices Michael to let him fight the battle and Lucifer who is Billions of times smarter than the Lanters combined talks to them and tricks the lanterns into killing each other while the Brothers watch in amusement.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That's because it was a controlled detonation that's the only reason he survived. Michael can own him with a gesture otherwise.

The "controlled" part of the detonation was in reference to the fact that Lucifer would kill Michael outside of creation, detonating him himself, rather than just letting him die and then explode within the multiverse.

He still stood there, in the middle of the biggest explosion possible and then created a multiverse like it was nothing.

Originally posted by cdtm
How can you call it less powerful? Based on what?

The fact is, it DID hurt Michael. Which proves it WAS powerful enough to hurt him.

Sure, Michael may have been powerful enough to wipe out a horde of angels armed with heaven weapons with a gesture, but that doesn't mean they can't hurt him if they're able to reach him before he wiped them out with his demiurgic power. Yes, it is powerful enough to hurt him but nowhere near as powerful as him which he could have ended the war with a gesture.

So it proves without a shadow of a doubt that weaker beings can hurt him and beat him despite him being more powerful. I just wanted to prove his body is nowhere near as durable as it is powerful.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
The "controlled" part of the detonation was in reference to the fact that Lucifer would kill Michael outside of creation, detonating him himself, rather than just letting him die and then explode within the multiverse.

He still stood there, in the middle of the biggest explosion possible and then created a multiverse like it was nothing. He warped the energies in the creation process. That's what the controlled part meant outside of creation. Those energies were controlled there safely unlike if Michael himsel fwanted to hurt Lucy which he can do with a gesture.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That's because it was a controlled detonation that's the only reason he survived. Michael can own him with a gesture otherwise.

No, he survived because he's f'ing awesome.

But really, the "controlled" part of the detonation was doing it in the void, so that God's multiverse wouldn't be destroyed by the power. There was nothing shielding Lucifer from the blast, he just took it because he's boss.

Originally posted by Cogito
No, he survived because he's f'ing awesome.

But really, the "controlled" part of the detonation was doing it in the void, so that God's multiverse wouldn't be destroyed by the power. There was nothing shielding Lucifer from the blast, he just took it because he's boss. I can tell you really like the character but no he can't tank Michael's energies like that only control them in this fashion/type of event. If he could easily tank Michael's blasts he would have won the initial war in which he lost, badly. by far less than this level of blast.

Yo.

Originally posted by tsscls
ZH Parallax was having a go at Spectre and Ion was a beast. I question why larfleeze and sinestro are here.
Lucifer and Michael take it, but its hard fought.

wrong Ion; the 1 thats pictured here was the "2.0" -version (who was depicted as being FAAAAAAAAAAARRR less powerful than his 1st iteration in the role.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Think spear by Sandolphon easily owning Michael who is far more powerful than Lucy. This team is done for.

so, basically yur saying that ZH-Para, Ion 2.0 and the other 2 can muster up the power to equal that of a heaven-created weapon..................yes??

sry, but I dont see that.




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



wrong Ion; the 1 thats pictured here was the "2.0" -version (who was depicted as being FAAAAAAAAAAARRR less powerful than his 1st iteration in the role.



so, basically yur saying that ZH-Para, Ion 2.0 and the other 2 can muster up the power to equal that of a heaven-created weapon..................yes??

sry, but I dont see that.




Tazer Yes, without a doubt as that spear wasn't shown to be anything uber just a heaven spear. I mean I saw a demon tear through angels in the series as well and Fenris do the same. The angels weren't beyond anyone in terms of being injured even though these two were very powerful they were always very beatable.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I can tell you really like the character but no he can't tank Michael's energies like that only control them in this fashion/type of event. If he could easily tank Michael's blasts he would have won the initial war in which he lost, badly. by far less than this level of blast.

Michael and Lucifer are defined by being created before creation. They are both capable of surviving a creation blast. It was shown on panel. I don't know where you're getting this idea that Lucifer didn't tank the blast, because it's shown right there on panel, and a couple panels before all the angels acknowledged that the blast would destroy the multiverse if it weren't done in the void.

You're just hatin', and making bullshit excuses.

Originally posted by Cogito
Michael and Lucifer are defined by being created before creation. They are both capable of surviving a creation blast. It was shown on panel. I don't know where you're getting this idea that Lucifer didn't tank the blast, because it's shown right there on panel, and a couple panels before all the angels acknowledged that the blast would destroy the multiverse if it weren't done in the void.

You're just hatin', and making bullshit excuses. My opinion is ironcalde and supported by the comics. With key words like controlled detonation makes it perfectly clear he controlled the explosion and used those energies to create his own universe. If he didn't control the energies they wouldn't form his own universe so acting like it's the same thing as an attack from Michael which has defeated him is ridiculous. I'm right as rain.

Originally posted by quanchi112
My opinion is ironcalde and supported by the comics. With key words like controlled detonation makes it perfectly clear he controlled the explosion and used those energies to create his own universe. If he didn't control the energies they wouldn't form his own universe so acting like it's the same thing as an attack from Michael which has defeated him is ridiculous. I'm right as rain.

That's ridiculous, and you're wrong as can be. Each has a single job that they were created for. Michael releases his energy, Lucifer shapes it.

I'm sorry I don't have time to provide scans, but look at issue 13.

Page 16:
Angel: "Reflect a moment, Michael is a vessel for the divine power. If he dies - if that vessel cracks - the worlds will be scoured clean of life. There will be nothing left."

Page 17:
Michael: "Ah! The void. Now I understand. You have taken me outside creation, a controlled detonation, then."

The controlled detonation was only taking him to the void, so that creation wouldn't be destroyed. Lucifer doesn't even shape the energy until later.

kbye

Yo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, without a doubt as that spear wasn't shown to be anything uber just a heaven spear. I mean I saw a demon tear through angels in the series as well and Fenris do the same. The angels weren't beyond anyone in terms of being injured even though these two were very powerful they were always very beatable.


but I dont think any1 was trying to put forward the idea that they were unbeatable dude, and then theres the fact that Mike & Lucy arent yur generic type of angels, but reside on the far spectrum of powerful ones (their "top tier" if U will.)

bottom line: Mike getting taken down by Sandys spear from behind doesnt/shouldnt = them losing to this 4-man team.




Tazer

Originally posted by Cogito
That's ridiculous, and you're wrong as can be. Each has a single job that they were created for. Michael releases his energy, Lucifer shapes it.

I'm sorry I don't have time to provide scans, but look at issue 13.

Page 16:
Angel: "Reflect a moment, Michael is a vessel for the divine power. If he dies - if that vessel cracks - the worlds will be scoured clean of life. There will be nothing left."

Page 17:
Michael: "Ah! The void. Now I understand. You have taken me outside creation, a controlled detonation, then."

The controlled detonation was only taking him to the void, so that creation wouldn't be destroyed. Lucifer doesn't even shape the energy until later.

kbye Yes, meaning Lucy can't prevent the energies from destroying creation before he reshapes them. I've already made my point on this matter and you can't dispute michael wanting to attack lucy as easily defeating him with less than this which he controlled.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.




but I dont think any1 was trying to put forward the idea that they were unbeatable dude, and then theres the fact that Mike & Lucy arent yur generic type of angels, but reside on the far spectrum of powerful ones (their "top tier" if U will.)

bottom line: Mike getting taken down by Sandys spear from behind doesnt/shouldnt = them losing to this 4-man team.




Tazer I think so as this team is capable of far more power than the spear is capable of.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



wrong Ion; the 1 thats pictured here was the "2.0" -version (who was depicted as being FAAAAAAAAAAARRR less powerful than his 1st iteration in the role.



so, basically yur saying that ZH-Para, Ion 2.0 and the other 2 can muster up the power to equal that of a heaven-created weapon..................yes??

sry, but I dont see that.




Tazer

I want to use Ion 1, BTW.

Lmao @ people trying to argue that Lucifer only survived the big bang released from Michael because it was "controlled detonation." The detonation was only "controlled" in the sense that Lucifer removed Michael from the mainstream universe, and had him detonate in the void (subsequently saving all creation.) I mean, It's not like Lucifer had any extra power in the void, so why people think him tanking the big bang there, as opposed to within Yahweh's creation, would have affected his 'damage soak' is entirely beyond me..? Tbh, it's actually a pretty ridiculous/baseless line of 'logic'.

Fact: Lucifer removed Michael from Yahweh's creation so that he could ultimately release the aforementioned energies into the void.
Fact: Lucifer tanked the subsequent multiversal big bang released from Michael's person.
Fact: Lucifer effortlessly warped those multiversal energies into a physical creation.
Fact: Lucifer OR Michael would casually shit-stomp the Lanterns.

Fact:Michael could defeat Lucifer with a gesture with far less powerful than a universal burst of energy that would lay waste to creation.
Fact:Lucy controlled the detonation.



You can distort the words and the easy fashion Mike first dispatched of him but in the end the facts support me not your distorted views.

While extremely powerful these two's bodies weren't anywhere near invulnerable enough to soak up the power from these lanterns.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lmao @ people trying to argue that Lucifer only survived the big bang released from Michael because it was "controlled detonation." The detonation was only "controlled" in the sense that Lucifer removed Michael from the mainstream universe, and had him detonate in the void (subsequently saving all creation.) I mean, It's not like Lucifer had any extra power in the void, so why people think him tanking the big bang there, as opposed to within Yahweh's creation, would have affected his 'damage soak' is entirely beyond me..? Tbh, it's actually a pretty ridiculous/baseless line of 'logic'.

Fact: Lucifer removed Michael from Yahweh's creation so that he could ultimately release the aforementioned energies into the void.
Fact: Lucifer tanked the subsequent multiversal big bang released from Michael's person.
Fact: Lucifer effortlessly warped those multiversal energies into a physical creation.
Fact: Lucifer OR Michael would casually shit-stomp the Lanterns.

Well put.

Fact: Lucifer is so much smarter than the Lanterns that he could probably Solo simply by tricking them into attacking each other.

Out of curiosity is there even any proof of either Angel being damaged by an energy attack since we know the Lanterns have no access to heavenly weaponry during the battle.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lmao @ people trying to argue that Lucifer only survived the big bang released from Michael because it was "controlled detonation." The detonation was only "controlled" in the sense that Lucifer removed Michael from the mainstream universe, and had him detonate in the void (subsequently saving all creation.) I mean, It's not like Lucifer had any extra power in the void, so why people think him tanking the big bang there, as opposed to within Yahweh's creation, would have affected his 'damage soak' is entirely beyond me..? Tbh, it's actually a pretty ridiculous/baseless line of 'logic'.

Fact: Lucifer removed Michael from Yahweh's creation so that he could ultimately release the aforementioned energies into the void.
Fact: Lucifer tanked the subsequent multiversal big bang released from Michael's person.
Fact: Lucifer effortlessly warped those multiversal energies into a physical creation.
Fact: Lucifer OR Michael would casually shit-stomp the Lanterns. . its not like that detonation was the first time he's handled michael's power. He's also done the same at the beginning of the first creation as well so he has a track record of being able to handle it. there is no multiple people arguing it. theres only quanchi. and he'll say almost anything to make lucifer or michael look bad cause almost everyone else agrees that Lucifer is a vastly superior intellectual to his favorite character Thanos. there's no pt in arguing with quanchi cuz he'll never admit the truth. he's the only one arguing against them.

Lol at Larfleeze being here.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
. its not like that detonation was the first time he's handled michael's power. He's also done the same at the beginning of the first creation as well so he has a track record of being able to handle it. there is no multiple people arguing it. theres only quanchi. and he'll say almost anything to make lucifer or michael look bad cause almost everyone else agrees that Lucifer is a vastly superior intellectual to his favorite character Thanos. there's no pt in arguing with quanchi cuz he'll never admit the truth. he's the only one arguing against them. Lucy isn't anywhere near Thanos in terms of manipulation or the kinds of competition Thanos is up against compared to Lucy. I've already proven far less than their power can hurt/kill them. You can disagree all you want but as usual I bring the pain.

Please Quan, pat yourself on the back some more, because you pwned this one.

/Thread.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Lucy isn't anywhere near Thanos in terms of manipulation or the kinds of competition Thanos is up against compared to Lucy. I've already proven far less than their power can hurt/kill them. You can disagree all you want but as usual I bring the pain. You're proof is meaningless. and if anything the one thing that the other team should never ever attempt to do is kill Michael. Killing Michael would only destroy them and leave Lucifer completely unharmed. Also killing michael does absolutely nothing to him except break his vessel. He will simply reconstitute himself in seconds. So there is no point in bringing that up. also lucifer is far smarter than thanos can hope to accomplish. he's done more with less. but i know that theres no point in arguing that with you. so lets end that particular argument.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
You're proof is meaningless. and if anything the one thing that the other team should never ever attempt to do is kill Michael. Killing Michael would only destroy them and leave Lucifer completely unharmed. Also killing michael does absolutely nothing to him except break his vessel. He will simply reconstitute himself in seconds. So there is no point in bringing that up. also lucifer is far smarter than thanos can hope to accomplish. he's done more with less. but i know that theres no point in arguing that with you. so lets end that particular argument. They don't have to kill Michael they can take hi as their prisoner as Sandolphon did.

Lucy being outprepped by Fenris initially didn't look like a genius move to me. He also was dominated by Michael initially in the great war and was pwned by the Sandman.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, it is powerful enough to hurt him but nowhere near as powerful as him which he could have ended the war with a gesture.

So it proves without a shadow of a doubt that weaker beings can hurt him and beat him despite him being more powerful. I just wanted to prove his body is nowhere near as durable as it is powerful.


But it's not a fair comparison. Michael may as well be a walking nuke compared to the angels armed only with melee weapons.

That doesn't make Michael weak for being injured by said melee weapons, it makes the melee weapons hella powerful..

Originally posted by cdtm
But it's not a fair comparison. Michael may as well be a walking nuke compared to the angels armed only with melee weapons.

That doesn't make Michael weak for being injured by said melee weapons, it makes the melee weapons hella powerful.. No, it doesn't. The weapon has no feats to say it's hela awesome and neither does Michael to prove it's one heckuva showing. He's just powerful but very vulnerable.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, it doesn't. The weapon has no feats to say it's hela awesome and neither does Michael to prove it's one heckuva showing. He's just powerful but very vulnerable. He's not vulnerable at all really. He's only vulnerable because he chooses to be. Let me explain. Sure some being can hurt his vessel. but by doing so it doesn't really do much to him. and if you kill him you release the demiurgic power from within and he instantly comes back as good as new. he only died permanently because he gave his powers to elaine because he knew that if he died that he would wipe creation away and he didn't want to do that. Let me reiterate: Killing michael does absolutely nothing for his opponents. it would only annihilate themselves. the brothers beat their enemies.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
He's not vulnerable at all really. He's only vulnerable because he chooses to be. Let me explain. Sure some being can hurt his vessel. but by doing so it doesn't really do much to him. and if you kill him you release the demiurgic power from within and he instantly comes back as good as new. he only died permanently because he gave his powers to elaine because he knew that if he died that he would wipe creation away and he didn't want to do that. Let me reiterate: Killing michael does absolutely nothing for his opponents. it would only annihilate themselves. the brothers beat their enemies. They don't need to kill Michael to win here just as Sandolphon didn't have to either.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They don't need to kill Michael to win here just as Sandolphon didn't have to either. The problem is unlike sandalphon he won't be focussed on anything else. and he has lucifer on his side who is equal to him and is many magnitudes smarter than anyone else on the battlefield. also sandalaphon wasn't some regular angel in the heavenly hierarchy. fyi he was an archangel just like michael and lucifer. so that isn't that low of a durability feat.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
The problem is unlike sandalphon he won't be focussed on anything else. and he has lucifer on his side who is equal to him and is many magnitudes smarter than anyone else on the battlefield. also sandalaphon wasn't some regular angel in the heavenly hierarchy. fyi he was an archangel just like michael and lucifer. so that isn't that low of a durability feat. It is compared to the power this teams brings to the table. Lucy is smart when he gets to talk in a story but in a battle where they are fighting this won't help him one bit. I think both go down rather quickly tbh.

Lucifer would trick Larfleeze in stealing the other lanterns rings/power. Casing commotion and confusion. While Michael stabs everyone in the back. Or waves his hands and blinks them out of existence.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Lucifer would trick Larfleeze in stealing the other lanterns rings/power. Casing commotion and confusion. While Michael stabs everyone in the back. Or waves his hands and blinks them out of existence. Larf can be beaten easily by practically anyone here before he'd do anything other than get in the way.

I agree.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I agree. Yeah i honestly don't know what the muppet brings to the table in this battle.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, it doesn't. The weapon has no feats to say it's hela awesome and neither does Michael to prove it's one heckuva showing. He's just powerful but very vulnerable.

The weapon has a feat of hurting Michael.

That's a feat.

Other angelic weapons have hurt demons other and other omnipotents. Michael himself used swords against Spectre on several occasions.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They don't need to kill Michael to win here just as Sandolphon didn't have to either.

Too bad for the Lanterns that they do not know they should not try to kill Michael. Granted they have no chance of killing him anyways but it's highly improbable that they will just randomly decide to follow Sandolphon's strategy who was infinitely more knowledgable about his opponent than the Lanterns would be.

Originally posted by cdtm
The weapon has a feat of hurting Michael.

That's a feat.

Other angelic weapons have hurt demons other and other omnipotents. Michael himself used swords against Spectre on several occasions. Hurting Michael isn't that big of a feat. The spear had no other feats and Michael has no feats showing how invulnerable he is.

Originally posted by BullwinkleMoose
Too bad for the Lanterns that they do not know they should not try to kill Michael. Granted they have no chance of killing him anyways but it's highly improbable that they will just randomly decide to follow Sandolphon's strategy who was infinitely more knowledgable about his opponent than the Lanterns would be. They can ko him as well. That's definitely an option and it won't be hard considering his durability isn't up to par here.

Quan, before anyone argues any further, I just want to see how much you hate Michael/Luci.

Thanos vs. Michael & Lucifer, how goes?

(I don't mean to devolve this by involving Thanos, just gauging whether there's any hope here)

Originally posted by Cogito
Quan, before anyone argues any further, I just want to see how much you hate Michael/Luci.

Thanos vs. Michael & Lucifer, how goes?

(I don't mean to devolve this by involving Thanos, just gauging whether there's any hope here) I don't hate either character in fact I enjoyed this series immensely. I'd rather not devolve this thread into another Thanos debate.

Why is it such a stomp? What did the bros. demonstrate above team 1?

Fair enough.

But if you think Michael and Lucifer can be beat by pretty much anyone with a spear, who isn't stronger than them?

Originally posted by Cogito
Fair enough.

But if you think Michael and Lucifer can be beat by pretty much anyone with a spear, who isn't stronger than them? The spear isn't just any old spear it is supernatural but it's nothing like omg worthy like the ig it's just an angelic weapon that can defeat the mightiest angel who dwarfs all the rest of them in power. That shows you don't have to be in the same ballpark to wound and defeat him.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Why is it such a stomp? What did the bros. demonstrate above team 1?

Let's see..

Being defined as the second most powerful beings (after Yahweh)
Being vessels for God's infinite power (Michael) and will (Lucifer)
Stated as each being more powerful than the entirety of the heavenly host
Defeating omnipotents (Lucifer)
Escaping predestination (Lucifer)
Creating (Michael) and surviving point blank (Lucifer) a multiversal big bang effortlessly
Shaping said energy into a multiverse, creating concepts such as time and space (Lucifer)
Being unkillable (they are abstracts for aspects of God, their physical containers (bodies) can be damaged but they cannot. They will reform instantly)
...Among others...

Originally posted by Cogito
Let's see..

Being defined as the second most powerful beings (after Yahweh)
Being vessels for God's infinite power (Michael) and will (Lucifer)
Stated as each being more powerful than the entirety of the heavenly host
Defeating omnipotents (Lucifer)
Escaping predestination (Lucifer)
Creating (Michael) and surviving point blank (Lucifer) a multiversal big bang effortlessly
Shaping said energy into a multiverse, creating concepts such as time and space (Lucifer)
Being unkillable (they are abstracts for aspects of God, their physical containers (bodies) can be damaged but they cannot. They will reform instantly)
...Among others...

Also, pushing around Destiny in his own domain, and scaring Death.

But really, it's the same reason LT is above all Marvel abstracts.

Usually, feats are king, but LT is an exception to that rule. His feats are very, very slim, but we take it on faith that being TOOA's personal enforcer makes him the second most powerful abstract in the MU, unless otherwise demonstrated (Such as Pre Retcon Beyonder scaring him).

For all intents and purposes, Michael is in the same spot as LT, being The Presences personal enforcer (As demonstrated in Ostranders Spectre series), and Lucifer is considered Michaels peer.

I don't see it as the same at all. Lt wouldn't be beaten by his fellow abstracts due to their own power and Michael was beaten by someone far less powerful than even his own brother who himself pales in comparison to Michael's power.

Originally posted by Cogito
Let's see..

Being defined as the second most powerful beings (after Yahweh)
Being vessels for God's infinite power (Michael) and will (Lucifer)
Stated as each being more powerful than the entirety of the heavenly host
Defeating omnipotents (Lucifer)
Escaping predestination (Lucifer)
Creating (Michael) and surviving point blank (Lucifer) a multiversal big bang effortlessly
Shaping said energy into a multiverse, creating concepts such as time and space (Lucifer)
Being unkillable (they are abstracts for aspects of God, their physical containers (bodies) can be damaged but they cannot. They will reform instantly)
...Among others...
OK, well most of those are just statements not anything "shown", and not hard evidence.

"Defeating omnipotents"? What does that even mean?

Big bang is impressive but didn't Parallax have similar power?

Your reasoning for unkillability could be said for Nekron as well yet he is vulnerable to the white light. Why would it fail in this situation? Or hell, Spectre is another "aspect" of God but was matched by Parallax. The Word is was literally defeated by a word.

Most of the others are just statements.

Originally posted by cdtm
Also, pushing around Destiny in his own domain, and scaring Death.
lol, having a smartass attitude around them is not a "feat". and they were hardly scared of him, I don't know where you get that from.

Originally posted by King Kandy
OK, well most of those are just statements not anything "shown", and not hard evidence.
If you read Lucifer, most if not all of that is shown. Perhaps you didn't read it.
Originally posted by King Kandy
"Defeating omnipotents"? What does that even mean?
The Titans Gyges and Garamas, in the absence of Yahweh, took his power for themselves and became God(s). Both Lucifer and Michael were completely incapable of harming them. Lucifer won via intelligence.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Big bang is impressive but didn't Parallax have similar power?
No. Not at all to the same degree. Parallax's power had limits, as was shown when he was defeated. Michael's power is literally the power of Yahweh - infinite. It is all of Parallax's power and infinitely more.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Your reasoning for unkillability could be said for Nekron as well yet he is vulnerable to the white light. Why would it fail in this situation?
Are you trying to ask why the white light wouldn't harm Lucifer and Michael? Nekron can't die because he is an aspect of death. Lucifer and Michael are above Death of the Endless.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Or hell, Spectre is another "aspect" of God but was matched by Parallax. The Word is was literally defeated by a word.
Spectre also hasn't ever died... In DC, Michael was shown to be far superior to Spectre as shown when Spectre tried to force his way into heaven. Lucifer and Michael are above the Spectre, that's not arguable.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Most of the others are just statements.
Um, no. Not statements. Facts. Shown on panel.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't see it as the same at all. Lt wouldn't be beaten by his fellow abstracts due to their own power and Michael was beaten by someone far less powerful than even his own brother who himself pales in comparison to Michael's power.

By being stabbed in the back, by a high ranking angel, using a celestial weapon.

LT also doesn't have a rival like the Presence did with The Great Evil Beast, nor was laid low by cosmic vampire that used The Presences female half against him, like happened in Supergirl, but that doesn't mean LT is going to beat Presence in a brawl.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Lt wouldn't be beaten by his fellow abstracts due to their own power and Michael was beaten by someone far less powerful than even his own brother who himself pales in comparison to Michael's power.

...

...

Right, because LT wasn't surpassed by the likes of a celestial created by one of those fellow abstracts (Scathan) or a random human who was hit with radiation (Owen Reece)

hey, cogito, didnt lucifer destroy a realm just by being in it?

and didnt he tear apart japanese gods by just his trickery alone. powerless.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
hey, cogito, didnt lucifer destroy a realm just by being in it?

and didnt he tear apart japanese gods by just his trickery alone. powerless.

Yes he did, on both counts.

He was powerless, and managed to not only beat the japanese gods, but gain their demon servant for his own purposes.

^

Originally posted by Cogito
...

...

Right, because LT wasn't surpassed by the likes of a celestial created by one of those fellow abstracts (Scathan) or a random human who was hit with radiation (Owen Reece)

There's also Protege. And after he copied LT's power, a Celestial ended up beating him..

Owen Reece is Molecule Man, isn't he?

Is this a Pre Retcon Beyonder thing?

Originally posted by cdtm
By being stabbed in the back, by a high ranking angel, using a celestial weapon.

LT also doesn't have a rival like the Presence did with The Great Evil Beast, nor was laid low by cosmic vampire that used The Presences female half against him, like happened in Supergirl, but that doesn't mean LT is going to beat Presence in a brawl. The angels were very defeatable by other beings such as the japanese demon and by Fenris so spare me the hyperbole when Michael is concerned he has no uber durability feats nor does the spear have anything uber about it.

What does the presence have to do with anything here ?

Originally posted by Cogito
...

...

Right, because LT wasn't surpassed by the likes of a celestial created by one of those fellow abstracts (Scathan) or a random human who was hit with radiation (Owen Reece) Not saying that there can't be more powerful beings due to pretcon or arguably in a futuristic comic but unlike Michale someone far, far, far weaker than him can't defeat him with a single attack by a featless weapon.

Originally posted by quanchi112
...he has no uber durability feats

And LT does? Has LT even been in a fight, before?

Because Michael has, against Spectre in various incarnations, and every time easily tanked his attacks and beat him.



Because you can't imagine a spear made by angels being more powerful than a normal spear?

Hurting Michaels implies uberness. That makes it more powerful than Spectre right off the bat..



You're arguing that Michaels wins because lesser beings hurt him. Presence has been hurt by lesser beings too.. It LT beating Presence, because of that?

Originally posted by cdtm
And LT does? Has LT even been in a fight, before?

Because Michael has, against Spectre in various incarnations, and every time easily tanked his attacks and beat him.



Because you can't imagine a spear made by angels being more powerful than a normal spear?

Hurting Michaels implies uberness. That makes it more powerful than Spectre right off the bat..



You're arguing that Michaels wins because lesser beings hurt him. Presence has been hurt by lesser beings too.. It LT beating Presence, because of that? Michael's actions against the Spectre aren't canon to mike carey's series. It's a a stand alone title based off of the sandman's introduction of Lucy.

Yes, i can but not to the point of it being like an ig or anything even close to it.

No, it doesn't since Michael didn't do anything in this series to show that he's uber durable. He was beatable just like anyone else in the series despite his power advantage.

Presence has never been hurt by someone as weak as Sandolphon so the point is moot and the GEB was his equal while Sandolphon is someone who can be owned wit a gesture by Michael.

Originally posted by cdtm
You're arguing that Michaels wins because lesser beings hurt him. Presence has been hurt by lesser beings too.. It LT beating Presence, because of that?

The Presence has never been hurt by lesser beings, as far as I know.

Originally posted by Cogito
The Presence has never been hurt by lesser beings, as far as I know.

Bad choice of words, as he wasn't actually hurt.

But I'm thinking about what happened in "Earth Born Angel" Supergirls series, with that vampire character.

At any time during Michael's imprisonment and torture at the hands of Sandalphon he could have killed himself (read: destroyed physical body). If the Lanterns could capture him, and that's a big if, they would most definitely not survive the explosion, whereas Michael and Lucifer would.

Originally posted by Cogito
At any time during Michael's imprisonment and torture at the hands of Sandalphon he could have killed himself (read: destroyed physical body). If the Lanterns could capture him, and that's a big if, they would most definitely not survive the explosion, whereas Michael and Lucifer would.

Not to mention, being a living "Big Bang" kind of implies durability...

He has to be tough enough to manipulate those energies, after all.

Originally posted by cdtm
Not to mention, being a living "Big Bang" kind of implies durability...

He has to be tough enough to manipulate those energies, after all.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7306/mike1u.th.jpg http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/2792/mike2j.th.jpg

-Taking aside the issue of raw power Lucifer and Michael are far more intelligent. Most likely Lucifer would have Kyle and Hal fighting each other before he ever used any of his own power.

Originally posted by Cogito
At any time during Michael's imprisonment and torture at the hands of Sandalphon he could have killed himself (read: destroyed physical body). If the Lanterns could capture him, and that's a big if, they would most definitely not survive the explosion, whereas Michael and Lucifer would. It's not in character for Michael to do so.

still mike and lucifer

i really don't see how its a question who wins

i read the series also