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Who wins?

This is Marvel Zeus. No bfring.

Zeus stomps.

Darkseid wins. No other New God was destined for the OE. The OE is special and can kill Zeus or weakens him up for DS to use his Superman level strength to finish him off.

Destine or not, DS is a thief XD

Zeus stomp DS here.

Darkseid wins.

Dark drills em

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Darkseid wins. Based on ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Zeus stomps.

Based on ?

based on darkseid loses to superman

Originally posted by Cogito
Based on ? Seid's losses to Superman, Doomsday, Orion, and how badly he was shown up by Raker.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Seid's losses to Superman, Doomsday, Orion, and how badly he was shown up by Raker.

Ah, the timeless "I'll only acknowledge low showings that aren't valid anyways because they were all retconned to being avatars" argument. Classic

So what has the true Darkseid done lately?

Originally posted by Cogito
Ah, the timeless "I'll only acknowledge low showings that aren't valid anyways because they were all retconned to being avatars" argument. Classic If you want to argue current Fc Seid only which usually is mentioned in the op considering the mess of his history that's fine because he was in a weakened human's body and has no feats as to correctly asses him good or bad.

I gave actual showings of far less than Zeus not only beating him but nearly killing him, killing him, embarrassing him, or beating him into submission. That's why I usually win debates I base my winners off of past comics not on who I like more.

I dunno, nearly collapsed reality by being in it.

/shrug

Originally posted by quanchi112
If you want to argue current Fc Seid only which usually is mentioned in the op considering the mess of his history that's fine because he was in a weakened human's body and has no feats as to correctly asses him good or bad.

If you want to make this Zeus vs. a Darkseid avater, then I'm in agreement. Zeus would win. The true Darkseid is another matter entirely.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I gave actual showings of far less than Zeus not only beating him but nearly killing him, killing him, embarrassing him, or beating him into submission. That's why I usually win debates I base my winners off of past comics not on who I like more.

You "win" arguments because everyone else gives up trying to convince you because you're so damn stubborn.

Originally posted by Cogito
If you want to make this Zeus vs. a Darkseid avater, then I'm in agreement. Zeus would win. The true Darkseid is another matter entirely.



You "win" arguments because everyone else gives up trying to convince you because you're so damn stubborn. Show me the true Darkseid in combat. Originally posted by Cogito
I dunno, nearly collapsed reality by being in it.

/shrug So why didn't he beat Superman or who did this allow him to beat in combat ? LOL.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Based on ?

Bein more powerful. An Multiversal Being vs an Skyfather. *shrug

Originally posted by quanchi112
Show me the true Darkseid in combat.

whistling1

Until he gets retconned, true Darkseid is a multiversal entity capable of collapsing reality with is mere presence, who inspires fear in a planet consisting of thousands of gods, who fought said planet of thousands of gods and won, etc.

I don't need to show combat feats. Most abstracts have no combat feats. Do you need to see them before you rank them above someone with combat feats (zomg Infinity vs. Spiderman, Spiderman wins!).

We do know some of his accomplishments, and those are far above Zeus.

Originally posted by Cogito
whistling1

Until he gets retconned, true Darkseid is a multiversal entity capable of collapsing reality with is mere presence, who inspires fear in a planet consisting of thousands of gods, who fought said planet of thousands of gods and won, etc.

I don't need to show combat feats. Most abstracts have no combat feats. Do you need to see them before you rank them above someone with combat feats (zomg Infinity vs. Spiderman, Spiderman wins!).

We do know some of his accomplishments, and those are far above Zeus.

It doesn't work like that. What has true Darkseid brought to the table that puts him above Zeus?

Originally posted by carver9
It doesn't work like that. What has true Darkseid brought to the table that puts him above Zeus?

It doesn't work like that. What has Zeus brough to the table that puts him above true Darkseid?

Originally posted by Cogito
It doesn't work like that. What has Zeus brough to the table that puts him above true Darkseid?

Beating the same type of people that Darkseid have trouble with...ans Zeus beats them as teams, etc. That's all he really need to put him above Darkseid imo but people have different opinions, that's why I made the thread.

Originally posted by carver9
Beating the same type of people that Darkseid have trouble with...ans Zeus beats them as teams, etc. That's all he really need to put him above Darkseid imo but people have different opinions, that's why I made the thread.

Darkseid's avatars. And for the record, Darkseid's avatars are team-wreckers. He's done many times.

Originally posted by carver9
It doesn't work like that. What has true Darkseid brought to the table that puts him above Zeus?

True Darkseid? Good grief. Superman schools any version of Darkseid.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Bein more powerful. An Multiversal Being vs an Skyfather. *shrug Batman sure affected a multiversal being as did Superman so by this logic does that mean Superman and batman can affect universal beings in combat let alone multiversal. Originally posted by Cogito
whistling1

Until he gets retconned, true Darkseid is a multiversal entity capable of collapsing reality with is mere presence, who inspires fear in a planet consisting of thousands of gods, who fought said planet of thousands of gods and won, etc.

I don't need to show combat feats. Most abstracts have no combat feats. Do you need to see them before you rank them above someone with combat feats (zomg Infinity vs. Spiderman, Spiderman wins!).

We do know some of his accomplishments, and those are far above Zeus. You have no combat feats so of course you rely on hyperbole and ignore the fact far less have hurt Darkseid and defeated him on panel even in fc.

In combat far less than Zeus has beaten Darkseid. Quit spouting hyperbole and nothing which translates into combat.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Batman sure affected a multiversal being as did Superman so by this logic does that mean Superman and batman can affect universal beings in combat let alone multiversal. .

Why do you leave out the circumstances? Did Batman affect him by his own power? Or did he had a plot device? What about Superman? Was there a bullet or miracle invovled in both?
That's actually lowballing. It's like saying that Drax ripped Thanos heart out but not telling the people why he could do this.

I'm not buying this true Darkseid BS. It wasn't an Avatar that Doomsday crushed, and nor was it an Avatar that Superman beat so badly that he couldn't open his eyes. If no one can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, then the times that Darkseid lost to less than multiverse beaters should be counted as valid defeats.

Zeus stomps.

Originally posted by Stoic
I'm not buying this true Darkseid BS. It wasn't an Avatar that Doomsday crushed, and nor was it an Avatar that Superman beat so badly that he couldn't open his eyes. If no one can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, then the times that Darkseid lost to less than multiverse beaters should be counted as valid defeats.

Zeus stomps.

In Final Crisis it was established that Darkseid's fall/presence collapsed the Multiverse. He is/was the embodiment (Multiversal?Abstract?) of Evil. It's nothing you have to prove as Final Crisi says/tells it on panel. There was an War in Heaven and Evil won .

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Why do you leave out the circumstances? Did Batman affect him by his own power? Or did he had a plot device? What about Superman? Was there a bullet or miracle invovled in both?
That's actually lowballing. It's like saying that Drax ripped Thanos heart out but not telling the people why he could do this. The point is he showed us no reason why no one could affect him when he was affected twice. He wasn't meant to exist in this reality that's why Superman sang him out of existence. His presence caused the multiverse to collapse because he wasn't supposed to be there not like sheer combat power had anything to do with it.

Originally posted by Stoic
I'm not buying this true Darkseid BS. It wasn't an Avatar that Doomsday crushed, and nor was it an Avatar that Superman beat so badly that he couldn't open his eyes. If no one can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, then the times that Darkseid lost to less than multiverse beaters should be counted as valid defeats.

Zeus stomps.

Originally posted by quanchi112
In combat far less than Zeus has beaten Darkseid. Quit spouting hyperbole and nothing which translates into combat.

Quit referencing avatars/Desaad.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
In Final Crisis it was established that Darkseid's fall/presence collapsed the Multiverse. He is/was the embodiment (Multiversal?Abstract?) of Evil. It's nothing you have to prove as Final Crisi says/tells it on panel. There was an War in Heaven and Evil won .


I'm not going to belittle the feat, but it can still be argued that it was not a quantifiable one. Lobo beat heaven and hell, correct? Lobo then turned around and was KO'ed by Superman, challenged by Captain Marvel, and easily bfr'ed by Despero. Superman put Darkseid through the shredder 2 times to my knowledge, and was butt raped, and mugged by HP Doomsday. These guys are certainly below Zeus. So perhaps the feat concerning Darkseid wasn't as grand as it appeared?

Originally posted by Cogito
Quit referencing avatars/Desaad. The fc Darkseid is undebatable for or against combat wise so by default we leave out fc Darkseid unless otherwise stated imo.

I've already said that a Darkseid avatar would lose to Zeus. Are you willing to say that FC Darkseid (the most recent Darkseid, btw) would probably win?

Originally posted by Cogito
I've already said that a Darkseid avatar would lose to Zeus. Are you willing to say that FC Darkseid (the most recent Darkseid, btw) would probably win? I don't see that Darkseid faring any better since he's in a weakened body and Batman was quick enough to get a shot off of him with human reflexes.

An obvious plot device. They had a whole conversation during which Darkseid could have killed him.

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/576/darkseidfail.png

hypocrite

Originally posted by CosmicComet
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/576/darkseidfail.png

hypocrite

Someone deserved to be shot for that blasphemy

Originally posted by Cogito
An obvious plot device. They had a whole conversation during which Darkseid could have killed him. They both knew Batman had a gun and both had ample time to react quicker in which batman fired first.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They both knew Batman had a gun and both had ample time to react quicker in which batman fired first.

The Bullet was however something special as you surely remember, don't ya?

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
The Bullet was however something special as you surely remember, don't ya? Yes, the bullet was but Batman firing it was all his own reflexes which beat out Darkseid's. That to me isn't impressive.

Originally posted by Cogito
Someone deserved to be shot for that blasphemy

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7971/darkseidfailupclose.png

I giggled.

Zeus wins.

How many appearances has True Darkseid made?

Is BatmanPrime still acting like DS pulled of ANY multiversal feats in FC?? Jesus... DS did NOTHING ON PANEL with his power that was Multiversal... nothing.. nada.. zero

.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Is BatmanPrime still acting like DS pulled of ANY multiversal feats in FC?? Jesus... DS did NOTHING ON PANEL with his power that was Multiversal... nothing.. nada.. zero

Reread it again .

You need to re-read it again, and this time, without your DS goggles. So tell me then.. name me the multiversal feats DS pulled off with his powerin FC please... This should be an interesting read lol

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You need to re-read it again, and this time, without your DS goggles. So tell me then.. name me the multiversal feats DS pulled off with his powerin FC please... This should be an interesting read lol

Just because you don't want to accept it, because it puts DS on Abstract level, as the embodiment of all Evil and this makes him > Thanos. Honestly, you know it, we already had this discussion, so why bother ?

Zues, after all he owned Hulk. peaches

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Just because you don't want to accept it, because it puts DS on Abstract level, as the embodiment of all Evil and this makes him > Thanos. Honestly, you know it, we already had this discussion, so why bother ?

I'm gonna stop you right there batman. Mandrakk is the ultimate evil, not darkseid. When darkseid fell from the 4th world into the other dimensions of the multiverse, this caused it's collapse. It's hard to say whether this is because of his immense power or due to his sheer size in other dimensions without using boomtubes to arrive. If it's the latter, the darkseid truly isn't multiversal. Let's not forget new gods a giants in size if not for boom tubes.

Mandrakk was not truly evil. It's the nature of the Monitors to feed on the Bleed. The fact that he built the cosmic armor prior to his fall proves he's not really a bad guy.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
I'm gonna stop you right there batman. Mandrakk is the ultimate evil, not darkseid. When darkseid fell from the 4th world into the other dimensions of the multiverse, this caused it's collapse. It's hard to say whether this is because of his immense power or due to his sheer size in other dimensions without using boomtubes to arrive. If it's the latter, the darkseid truly isn't multiversal. Let's not forget new gods a giants in size if not for boom tubes.

As for the Evil, what cogito said. As for the Giant size, it's true but they are big enough that Planets are just very small but not the whole Multiverse, so I don't think that this was the reason. It might be his size true, but then he has to be bigger then all other New Gods combined if his size alone affected the Multiverse, which in turn would also make him Multiversal, wouldn't it?

Are hulk fans still hurt over the beating zeus gave him?

Originally posted by Don Corleone
Zues, after all he owned Hulk. peaches This isn't Zues from tron legacy.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Just because you don't want to accept it, because it puts DS on Abstract level, as the embodiment of all Evil and this makes him > Thanos. Honestly, you know it, we already had this discussion, so why bother ?

So no examples eh? Just as I thought.. concession accepted.. he performed NO multiversal feats in FC

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
I'm gonna stop you right there batman. Mandrakk is the ultimate evil, not darkseid. When darkseid fell from the 4th world into the other dimensions of the multiverse, this caused it's collapse. It's hard to say whether this is because of his immense power or due to his sheer size in other dimensions without using boomtubes to arrive. If it's the latter, the darkseid truly isn't multiversal. Let's not forget new gods a giants in size if not for boom tubes.

Actually it wasn't his size... it was made clear the multiverse was collasping because DS didn't belong in world.. He falling to a place where he didn't belong is like something happening in the 616 and messing up its continuity which in turn threatens the multiverse. However, at no point at any time did DS perform a single multiversal feat nor do anything multiversal with his power

I don't know why I bother but anyway

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=12518603

Originally posted by Diesldude
Darkseid wins. No other New God was destined for the OE. The OE is special and can kill Zeus or weakens him up for DS to use his Superman level strength to finish him off.

superman level strength is not enough

So STILL NOTHING... What don't you understand about his falling into a place he didn't belong and the sigularity his death created is what cast the shadow all over the multiverse and was flushing it down the toilet. What is unclear about that... You just posted a scan going over the same thing already known... His falling to a place he didn't belong and the void created by his role in the universe being vacated caused a lot of things to happen. However, that isn't his power doing a thing to the multiverse or performing any multiversal feats.

Originally posted by ankur29
superman level strength is not enough Superman level strength would only irritate Zeus who is far above it.

You said it "His role in the Universe" or more correct, Multiverse.
It's simple. Darkseids Avatars were/are in the Universe/Multiverse and nothing happened. Now his true form is here and everything collapses. Isn't this a testimony of his status and power?

If a being just by being there destroys a whole multiverse, isn't this prove enough to see how important/powerful this being is?

Honestly. I can't believe what's so hard to understand about this.

First, you're incorrect on a few points... All of the times we've seen DS they haven't been Avatars and this isn't a some fact in evidence. That is your hope for what they have been. However, when DS lost to DD and Superman (asked for quarter) those weren't Avatars. So this whole notion that we've only seen avatars is hog wash.

Secondly, you read Marvel right... You understand that if something changes dramatically in the 616 Universe.. it can effect and has effected the multiverse as a whole. I could be something as simple as time travel messing up events in the past and thus having multiversal effects. A battle taking place in the 616 that is causing destuction and damage and thus causing multiversal effects.. since the 616 is the lynchpin to everything. Yet these events weren't caused by multiversal people, in fact, they were just caused by events just happening in the 616 and messing up its dynamic and thus messing up everything. THIS IS EXACTLY what happened in FC... DS wasn't waving his hand and displaying multiversal power or even abstract power. He was FALLING INTO A PLACE HE DIDN'T BELONG. Since much like in marvel, DC main universe is the key to all other universes... that had MULTIVERSAL effects... Make no mistake though.. DS did NOTHING multiversal on his own or with his power. He was falling to a place he didn't belong and that was causing a shit down of problems as a consequence. What on earth is so hard to understand about that.

He wasn't displaying Multiversal power.. shit.. it wasn't even his plan to die... shit.. he couldn't have ACCOMPLISHED ANY OF WHAT HE EVEN DID WITHOUT THE ALE.. Or did you forget that little power up that wasn't even DS own power. That ALE being broadcast CRACKED TIME AND SPACE which even allowed DS to fall when he got killed (also not part of his plan) He wouldn't have been able to win the war in heaven nor would time and space been cracked WITHOUT THE ALE. DS didn't do SHIT on is own.. DId he crack time and space with his power NO.. did he win the war in heaven without the ALE.. NO... Was it his plan to die and start to fall.. NO.... He didn't display one multiversal power nor any feat of that magnitude. Shit.. he wouldn't have been able to do a damn thing without a powreup. Yet you're running around saying he is multiversal and displayed multiversal power... LULZ... The multiverse was messed up and ONLY messed up because DS was falling into a place he didn't belong and since DC main universe in the lynchpin to everything else.. it started to have multiversal effects. Was is so difficult to understand about these basic concepts that were clearly laid out by Morrrison. I know you wanted to read it with your DS goggles on but they practicallly hit you over the head with all the facts you seem to have missed.

One step forward, two steps back. You admitted that his presence alone collapsed the Multiverse because he didn't belong there, so it had to be his avatars before that else if he had been there before there in his true form the multiverse would have collapsed long ago.
Now this ain't 616 Marvel-verse. It's DC, a lot of things work differen't there and some things don't like the IG.
You don't like the place Morrison gave him (the Ultimate Evil, the embodiment of Evil, Multiversal/Abstract), your problem not mine, if you would read FC without your hate-DS-googles you would understand this. Don't hate because he is greater then Thanos (Thanos is still a cool rip-off).
A simple fact remains.

Morrisons take on Darkseid > yours. Easy right?

Please list me ANY narration that says DS is an abstract and multiversal ANY narration that states this... Ooo yeah you have nothing....

You have no idea do you.. things ARE different in Marvel and DC in some areas... However, THE area we are talking about they are the same.. If you mess with DC Universe prime it has multiversal effects.. this is the same in the 616.. So knowing that.. you can't see how THIS WAS THE WAY DS effected the Multiversal... He never waved his hand and started collasping anything.. shit he couldn't even have done a thing without the ALE (a powerup) Should I use Thanos with the IG (another powerup) and use all the feats he did with it as if it was his own power. That is EXACTLY what you're trying to do here... Space and time wouldn't have cracked WITHOUT THE ALE.. that cracking ALLOWED DS to fall..not his power.. nothing to do with his power.. THE ALE DID THAT. He wouldn't have won the war in heaven WITHOUT THE ALE which again cracked Time and Space... I'm not the one wearing goggles since you missed all these facts that were layed out very clearly... i guess I could call Reed multiversal for having a child that never was and it having multiversal effects huh? Jesus... Please show me ANY feats in FC where DS did ANYTHING MULTIVERSAL... I'm still waiting... I guess since you want to use DS with a powerup which allowed him to accomplish all he did.. I'll use Thanos with the IG (powerup) and talk about how he wrecks DS with ease.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Superman level strength would only irritate Zeus who is far above it. You have no proof that Zeus is even stronger than Superman.

Supes probably oneshots the red-head.

Zues' punches would do the same to Superman as they did to Hulk.

Superman beats Darkseid so Zues will do the same.

Marvel Lucifer in a neutral environment is pure evil too yet hates physical confrontations. Just because a being is an idea personified doesn't mean it amps them in the fisticuffs dept. Certain laws still apply.

Originally posted by h1a8
You have no proof that Zeus is even stronger than Superman. Only his casual domination of the Hulk which Superman can not do.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Only his casual domination of the Hulk which Superman can not do.


On principle? Because you'll notice your argument is no proof at all

Originally posted by Bentley
On principle? Because you'll notice your argument is no proof at all Yes, since the two characters have and likely will never meet in a canon book all I have is my gut feeling.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Please list me ANY narration that says DS is an abstract and multiversal ANY narration that states this... Ooo yeah you have nothing....

You have no idea do you.. things ARE different in Marvel and DC in some areas... However, THE area we are talking about they are the same.. If you mess with DC Universe prime it has multiversal effects.. this is the same in the 616.. So knowing that.. you can't see how THIS WAS THE WAY DS effected the Multiversal... He never waved his hand and started collasping anything.. shit he couldn't even have done a thing without the ALE (a powerup) Should I use Thanos with the IG (another powerup) and use all the feats he did with it as if it was his own power. That is EXACTLY what you're trying to do here... Space and time wouldn't have cracked WITHOUT THE ALE.. that cracking ALLOWED DS to fall..not his power.. nothing to do with his power.. THE ALE DID THAT. He wouldn't have won the war in heaven WITHOUT THE ALE which again cracked Time and Space... I'm not the one wearing goggles since you missed all these facts that were layed out very clearly... i guess I could call Reed multiversal for having a child that never was and it having multiversal effects huh? Jesus... Please show me ANY feats in FC where DS did ANYTHING MULTIVERSAL... I'm still waiting... I guess since you want to use DS with a powerup which allowed him to accomplish all he did.. I'll use Thanos with the IG (powerup) and talk about how he wrecks DS with ease.

Obviouly we disagree. As fas as I'm concerned I understood the story the same way as most other posters here (Jake, Galan etc) you however did read and understand it differently. That's ok just because a majority believes something, it doesn't have to be true.
But we can try to find the point where we agree.
So you won't mind if I ask you some questions? (as you failed to prove your point in my eyes and I mine in yours, right?)

Is Darkseid the embodiment of Evil in the DC Universe (with and without the ALE)?
Is Darkseids true form bigger then what we see when he is seen in our Universe? Do the Boomtubes decrease his size?
The scan I posted, do you agree that this is Darkseid in his true form and size falling toward the Multiverse?

You're correct in that FC was pretty deep and intricate and there are some things that can be interrupted differently. Obviously, I feel like the specific narration I'm referring to there isn't much ambiguity but whatever. BTW Jake nor Galan disagree with any of the narration that I put up, because there is no disputing it. We've had these discussions before and no they don't disagree with the points I'm making.

You didn't answer my questions so I'm not sure why I'm suppose to answer yours.. However, I will do so even though i don't think there is much of a point.

1. Yes, I feel like one could certainly get that "feel" from what FC and what he was trying to get at. The problem is, that is just one persons take on a character. We've seen inconsistencies all the time in comics... Thor needs Mjorlnir to fly... other times he doesn't... Galactus role in the universe has had many little tweaks and changes here and there. So even if that was his take on DS, you must admit, that much like every other character that was just HIS take. There is nothing written in stone about it that overrides a whole characters entire history of NOT being the embodiment of Evil.

2. Of course, this has been shown to be true before M took over. So yes I agree with this point.

3. No, that isn't DS true form... what you must remember Batman was that HE WAS DEAD... That was his form AFTER HE WAS KILLED. So no that isn't his "true form" or what he would look like when he was alive. Furthermore, do you think the entire multiverse was shown in that panel? I mean really? That was simply the case of reinforcing a theme that was shoved down our throats countless times which you continued to miss. The Multiverse was being flushed down the toilet because DS was falling to a place he didn't belong, in doing so, this caused a whole chain of events across the multiverse i.e. shadows being cast across the multiverse to illustrate this point. Nobody is claiming the multiverse wasn't effected.. the argument is that DS was effecting it with his power NOR was it his plan for any of this to happen AND he had a powerup which allowed that to even happen. Those are the points that were made crystal clear in FC, which you seemed to miss.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, since the two characters have and likely will never meet in a canon book all I have is my gut feeling.

Well, your gut feeling is correct.

If Thor can say this, imagine what Superman will say if he met Hulk.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8578918/FI_5_Oroboros_CPS_028.jpg.html

Originally posted by carver9
Well, your gut feeling is correct.

If Thor can say this, imagine what Superman will say if he met Hulk.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8578918/FI_5_Oroboros_CPS_028.jpg.html You should edit your post to say spoilers prior to clicking on the link. That could mean the Hulk or it could mean the worthy hulk. I know which way you are taking this.