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Standard equipment for both.

Who win?

Danny.

Fist ftw

Remember the problems he had with Cassandra Cain?

Add in Danny's damage output, and Slade will be hurting.

Originally posted by cdtm
Remember the problems he had with Cassandra Cain?

Add in Danny's damage output, and Slade will be hurting. Putting Fist in Cain league?

I am siding with Slade, because he can dodge those amp fist.

Danny.

slade gets an arse beating

Rand.

Originally posted by vansonbee
Putting Fist in Cain league?

I am siding with Slade, because he can dodge those amp fist.

He cannot dodge the ground pound

Wow Deathstroke definitely wins here 7-8/10. Danny will have the same problems with Slade as he did with Steve. Danny is just physically outmatched.

Note: Slade didn't have any problems with Cassandra, He was toying with her and stalling til his daughter, Rose arrived to fight her.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Note: Slade didn't have any problems with Cassandra, He was toying with her and stalling til his daughter, Rose arrived to fight her.

scans anyone?

One hellcarrier move and it's all over for Slade.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Wow Deathstroke definitely wins here 7-8/10. Danny will have the same problems with Slade as he did with Steve. Danny is just physically outmatched.


Wasn't that chi-less danny or something?

either Way Current Danny is stronger, faster, hits harder, and more skilled then Steve so not really relevant.

Slade for a solid majority.

Slade can hit Flash at will
Can make Wonderwoman bleed in H2H.
Has the speed and agility to evade superman and suprise him.

he wins.

Originally posted by vansonbee
Putting Fist in Cain league?


You'd better believe it:

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/4089/bullets11sx.jpg

About the equivalent of her bullet dance.






http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4109/grsp30coyy7.jpg

And this exceeds any bullet feat Cass has, by far. This is exactly as impressive as slapping aside individual bullets from a hail of machine gun fire, as flechettes travel at bullet velocities at short range.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Slade can hit Flash at will
Can make Wonderwoman bleed in H2H.
Has the speed and agility to evade superman and suprise him.

he wins.

If you're counting PIS, sure.

Like all Slade threads this becoming the whole him against heralds vs him against low metas and streets debate. Hopefully with the reboot dc decides what to do with him because right now it seems to be both. He can take lightspeeders and drop class 100s but at the same time streets and low metas can fight and hurt him. before all the blah blah he wins against them. Not my point, mine is that they effectively fight against him and dodge/harm him.

Originally posted by jalek moye
Wasn't that chi-less danny or something?



He just fought the wrecking crew, and overused his Iron Fist doing it. Plus, he was trying to get Caps help. Cap even said he thought Danny was pulling his punches.

IF 6/10

So IF can dodge bullets at ease as well, so that could be say for Wolverine, if he wanted too.

Who faster? Slade or IF, still leaning toward Slade for messing up kid flash and tripping flash, and clowning superman once.

Originally posted by vansonbee
So IF can dodge bullets at ease as well, so that could be say for Wolverine, if he wanted too.

Who faster? Slade or IF, still leaning toward Slade for messing up kid flash and tripping flash, and clowning superman once.

I'd say reflexes Slade would be faster but not fast to the point where eh can't be hit. Movement and fight speed prolly a wash.

.

Originally posted by jalek moye
Like all Slade threads this becoming the whole him against heralds vs him against low metas and streets debate. Hopefully with the reboot dc decides what to do with him because right now it seems to be both. He can take lightspeeders and drop class 100s but at the same time streets and low metas can fight and hurt him. before all the blah blah he wins against them. Not my point, mine is that they effectively fight against him and dodge/harm him. they do in low showings......everybody has them, but slades are always the main vocal point in a forum match on kmc. Honestly those types of showings are less numerous/consistent than the ones people love to call pis. Why theyre viewed as the norm is a mystery. It really is dcs fault though. They displayed at a completely different levels of formmidability depending on how theyre feeling. Still though, if the saying "majority rules" has any truth to it at all, Slade is being way undersold around here.

I'd point out that many of Slade's 'poor showings' against non-meta MAs are like Spider-Man's showings against certain non-Metas: a result of Slade holding back.

Not saying they didn't happen, just suggesting that Slade can and has stepped his game up when the competition improves.

Have to go with Slade. 6-7/10

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I'd point out that many of Slade's 'poor showings' against non-meta MAs are like Spider-Man's showings against certain non-Metas: a result of Slade holding back.

Not saying they didn't happen, just suggesting that Slade can and has stepped his game up when the competition improves. I completely agree with this. Many of those supposed low showings are due to slade simply not being all that concerned with street levelers. He always puts his job first. The fact that hes effortlessly owned many of the same street levelers hes had "problems" with only further supports his case.

Slade's above street levelers, no question.

It's the Identity Crisis team pwning, holding his own with Wonder Woman in high heels, or tagging Flash that's PISy.

Even Danny Rand shouldn't be able to perform those feats.

And speaking of feats, has Slade ever actually timed a bullet?

I'm fairly confident if he does, Danny is still a good match considering he has some impressive durability feats, and his Iron Fist lets him hit beyond his weight class..

Tagging speedsters makes little sense, but its something that Slade does a lot. To the point that it becomes consistent PIS, something that you can still rule out in a serious debate but which cannot be so easily dismissed.

I wouldn't have Slade tagging Flash if I wrote him. And I'm a big Slade fanboy.

Originally posted by cdtm
You'd better believe it:

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/4089/bullets11sx.jpg

About the equivalent of her bullet dance.






http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4109/grsp30coyy7.jpg

And this exceeds any bullet feat Cass has, by far. This is exactly as impressive as slapping aside individual bullets from a hail of machine gun fire, as flechettes travel at bullet velocities at short range.

he pullin off karate kid type shiet there..
was gonna go with Stroke, but now gotta go wit DRand. 6/10

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
he pullin off karate kid type shiet there..
was gonna go with Stroke, but now gotta go wit DRand. 6/10
Nah. Karate Kid would have sent them back at the guy.

Also it helps that Danny's hands are super durable against piercing damage.

Originally posted by cdtm
And speaking of feats, has Slade ever actually timed a bullet? Not sure what you mean by "timed", but he has dodged bullets:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/14663016.jpg/

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Tagging speedsters makes little sense, but its something that Slade does a lot. To the point that it becomes consistent PIS, something that you can still rule out in a serious debate but which cannot be so easily dismissed.

I wouldn't have Slade tagging Flash if I wrote him. And I'm a big Slade fanboy. Imo, consistent PIS isn't PIS at all. Slade has shown the ability to routinely get the better of speedsters (Kid Flash, for instance), and routinely get the better of characters in the upper echelon of power/strength (Donna Troy, for instance.)

...Not to mention his damage soak is fcuking insane (his battle with the Outsiders, for instance.)

Slade "tagging" Flash has little to nothing to do with Slade's speed. He "tags" Flash by predicting where he will be and exploiting the fact that the speedsters are all morons. It's what every street level does when they fight a speedster, they "predict" where their opponent will end up and focus their attack there. Slade throws his staff ahead of Flash's path and trips him, or fires a blast into his path and hits him, or merely holds his sword where the Flash will be... and Flash runs into it. Slade doesn't hit the Flash because he is fast, he hits Flash because Flash stupidly runs into shit... because he jobs. Batman's done it Flash too. When ever a speedster fights an MA, they jobbingly have a predictable pattern that allows the MA to anticipate their movements, it has almost nothing to do with speed.

Good fight, Iron Fist gets a slight majority.

^ Seems like I remember Slade perceiving and reacting to heat vision that was being fired at him from fairly close range... Just saying that there is other evidence which suggests that his consistent (key word) 'tagging' of speedsters throughout his career can be attributed to more than just dumb luck on his part, or PIS/jobbing on the speedsters' part(s). /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Seems like I remember Slade perceiving and reacting to heat vision that was being fired at him from fairly close range... Just saying that there is other evidence which suggests that his consistent (key word) 'tagging' of speedsters throughout his career can be attributed to more than just dumb luck on his part, or PIS/jobbing on the speedsters' part(s). /shrug

Dick's done that too.

Slade's fast. He can jump through moving industrial fan blades, but tagging Flash happens because Flash is forced to jobbed to MAs and written like he is slightly smarter than a burlap sack full of potatoes. Hell one of the instances Slade tagged a Flash, Impulse was stated as only being cable of 300mph speed! I think we can all agree that is pretty clearly bs.

Amped Danny is probably a little faster, but not enough to make a significant difference.

Hmmm... didnt post in this thread for few days because I was thinking.. Id say split.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not sure what you mean by "timed", but he has dodged bullets:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/14663016.jpg/



Bullet time means seeing the bullets headed towards its target(person) at the same time in one panel. And then seeing the target move out of the way.

That one above is not a true example of bullet time because he could have dodged the aim since the target is not shown in the bullet panel.


But its a moot point, since bullet timers like Batgirl have stated that Slade is faster then her. Heck even Superman himself was impressed by Slade's speed.(although I doubt he was going all out with his speed.)

I'm not saying I agree with it, but there's no denying that Slade has tagged speedsters numerous times on panel. Given that, it's hard (for me, at least) to deem those showings PIS, when he's been so consistent with that type of feat.

...But I suppose it's really inconsequential either way.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not saying I agree with it, but there's no denying that Slade has tagged speedsters numerous times on panel. Given that, it's hard (for me, at least) to deem those showings PIS, when he's been so consistent with that type of feat.

...But I suppose it's really inconsequential either way.

I view it like Omega does, where as it happens enough that you don't simply throw it away but it's still iffy and not so clear cut in a serious debate as in "He can beat anyone flash level or lower etc"

I see it more like Mindset, where's even frequent PIS is still PIS...

Originally posted by jalek moye
I view it like Omega does, where as it happens enough that you don't simply throw it away but it's still iffy and not so clear cut in a serious debate as in "He can beat anyone flash level or lower etc" That's pretty much my opinion as well. No one is saying that Slade can 'outspeed' a speedster -- but based on his history, it's perfectly logical to assume he could land an occasional feat blows mid-battle.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not saying I agree with it, but there's no denying that Slade has tagged speedsters numerous times on panel. Given that, it's hard (for me, at least) to deem those showings PIS, when he's been so consistent with that type of feat.

...But I suppose it's really inconsequential either way.

You could simply try acknowledging the context that allowed Slade to hit those characters? I mean, how does Slade throwing his staff in front of Flash and Flashing tripping over it quantify as a speed feat? How does Slade standing perfectly still and holding his sword behind him and Flash running into it quantify as a speed feat? As far as I'm concerned they are all pretty clearly examples of Flash running into stuff. Slade actually getting into melee with the Flash and punching him happens rarely (once maybe twice), and I think that was even the time Impulse was stated as only cable of 300mph speed.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You could simply try acknowledging the context that allowed Slade to hit those characters? I mean, how does Slade throwing his staff in front of Flash and Flashing tripping over it quantify as a speed feat? How does Slade standing perfectly still and holding his sword behind him and Flash running into it quantify as a speed feat? As far as I'm concerned they are all pretty clearly examples of Flash running into stuff. Slade actually getting into melee with the Flash and punching him happens rarely (once maybe twice), and I think that was even the time Impulse was stated as only cable of 300mph speed. So just as often as Slade angles the battles so that speedsters "run into stuff" (ie. his strategically placed weaponry), he angles the battle so he can physically strike them? Works for me. Either way he's reading them, and reacting accordingly.

Originally posted by Galan007
So just as often as Slade angles the battles so that speedsters "run into stuff" (ie. his strategically placed weaponry), he angles the battle so he can physically strike them? Works for me. Either way he's reading them, and reacting accordingly.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You could simply try acknowledging the context that allowed Slade to hit those characters? I mean, how does Slade throwing his staff in front of Flash and Flashing tripping over it quantify as a speed feat? How does Slade standing perfectly still and holding his sword behind him and Flash running into it quantify as a speed feat? As far as I'm concerned they are all pretty clearly examples of Flash running into stuff. Slade actually getting into melee with the Flash and punching him happens rarely (once maybe twice), and I think that was even the time Impulse was stated as only cable of 300mph speed.

Exactly, it's all PIS.

Wally can stop on a dime, can run around, under, over, or through all sorts of obstacles, can even subconsciously react to bullets touching his skin as he's sleeping, or an explosion going off also as he's sleeping, yet he runs directly into a sword held by Slade?

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not saying I agree with it, but there's no denying that Slade has tagged speedsters numerous times on panel. Given that, it's hard (for me, at least) to deem those showings PIS, when he's been so consistent with that type of feat.

...But I suppose it's really inconsequential either way.

yep. i've used the same argument for logan against the highest level bricks. as a quick example--people scoff at logan being able to be a threat to thor or herc in straight h2h, no weapons. however, as silly as it seems, his CONSISTENT portrayl against bricks would seem to indicate he could indeed be a real threat.

in the same way, as silly as it seems, ds HAS been a threat to speedsters and high metas.

i'm with you--consistency would indicate intent of writer to me. and if everyone that writes ds makes him a threat, then he is a threat.

as for the fight--danny is a beast lately, but i'd take ds for a majority though danny could def take some.

Originally posted by jalek moye
Like all Slade threads this becoming the whole him against heralds vs him against low metas and streets debate. Hopefully with the reboot dc decides what to do with him because right now it seems to be both. He can take lightspeeders and drop class 100s but at the same time streets and low metas can fight and hurt him. before all the blah blah he wins against them. Not my point, mine is that they effectively fight against him and dodge/harm him.

Freakin Amen. Slade is gonna be a beast in the reboot. Thats already been stated as fact by the writer.

BTW Iron Fist recently got his ass kicked by Wolverine. Put me down for Slade.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Nah. Karate Kid would have sent them back at the guy.

Also it helps that Danny's hands are super durable against piercing damage.


yeah come to think of it Val would have sent those bullets back at the shooter, but with the picture of a happy face drilled into his chest.

Originally posted by Aries_04
Freakin Amen. Slade is gonna be a beast in the reboot. Thats already been stated as fact by the writer.

BTW Iron Fist recently got his ass kicked by Wolverine. Put me down for Slade.

Wolverine would kick Slade's ass too... pretty easily.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine would kick Slade's ass too... pretty easily. Says the poster who lowballs slade every thread and takes wolverine at his highest possible interpretation according to high end feats......

Slade FTM

Originally posted by namorsubby
Says the poster who lowballs slade every thread and takes wolverine at his highest possible interpretation according to high end feats......

Slade FTM

I take them both at their levels of majority representation, and unfortunately the majority of the time Slade shows up, he has way more trouble then anyone with his power set should have with street level MAs.

except for thats completely untrue. Most of those showings where he "has trouble" with street levelers have extinuating circumstances(like slade not being at all concerned with them).......the rest, low showings not to be taken as an indication of his true formmidablity. It is basically understood in the DCU that even elite street levelers are nothing to a serious slade.....you can tell simply by how they speak of him.

Originally posted by namorsubby
except for thats completely untrue. Most of those showings where he "has trouble" with street levelers have extinuating circumstances(like slade not being at all concerned with them).......the rest, low showings not to be taken as an indication of his true formmidablity. It is basically understood in the DCU that even elite street levelers are nothing to a serious slade.....you can tell simply by how they speak of him.

And yet they all manage to give him a whole heap of trouble. Strange? Almost every time he shows up, he fights one on one with a street, and he has to work for his win. That is just how it is. Slade has trouble with streets because despite his stats, there is a sizeable skill discrepancy between him and top tier streets.

again.....completely untrue. Hes owned street levelers wijth ease plenty of times. Hes fought them in pairs and groups while still holding back(he even says so). When he does "have trouble" its either do to extinuating circuumstances or jobbing, being that hes a team antagonist forced to play a street leveler antagonist from time to time

I see the eternal battle b/n namsubby and srank has found it's way here as well...

Originally posted by namorsubby
again.....completely untrue. Hes owned street levelers wijth ease plenty of times. Hes fought them in pairs and groups while still holding back(he even says so). When he does "have trouble" its either do to extinuating circuumstances or jobbing, being that hes a team antagonist forced to play a street leveler antagonist from time to time

No, I'm afraid it's completely true. Sometimes he does have success fighting several several members of the Titans / Young Justice at once, because they have nothing resembling team work or coordination and practically fall over themselves. He has trouble with Nightwing in one on one melee. He has trouble with Cass in one on one melee. He has trouble with Batman in one on one melee. He has trouble with Bronze Tiger in on on one melee. Arsenal has given him trouble. Eddie Fryers has beaten him. Deadshot has beaten and stalemated him. Azrael has stalemated him. David Cane has stalemated him. Slade has trouble with streets. Just a simple trueth.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I see the eternal battle b/n namsubby and srank has found it's way here as well... Lulz doesn't it always

I can see either winning.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I can see either winning. Between srank and subby?

No, IF/Slade.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No, I'm afraid it's completely true. Sometimes he does have success fighting several several members of the Titans / Young Justice at once, because they have nothing resembling team work or coordination and practically fall over themselves. He has trouble with Nightwing in one on one melee. He has trouble with Cass in one on one melee. He has trouble with Batman in one on one melee. He has trouble with Bronze Tiger in on on one melee. Arsenal has given him trouble. Eddie Fryers has beaten him. Deadshot has beaten and stalemated him. Azrael has stalemated him. David Cane has stalemated him. Slade has trouble with streets. Just a simple trueth. hes beaten nightwings ass effortlessly several times. Once he got serious he freakin trounced bruce(even the time he lost he was whooping him with casual interest). Cass admitted that slade just toys with her(which is saying something seeing as she one of the best period). Hes taken on black canary and huntress(they had help) while holding back, embarassing them. Hes taken on black canary and green arrow at once, stating he couldve ended it any time easily. These are just some that come to mind. Sometimes he has more difficulty than he should, but the general idea is hes in a different league. He and the street levelers themselves know and acknowledge this. Who are you to dissagree with them

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I can see either winning.

Yeah it's a pretty good fight. Danny can be cocky and over confident, which will allow Slade some advantages he wouldn't be afforded if say someone like Daredevil had the Iron Fist. I still see Danny taking the slight majority, but it would be a good fight.

of course you do

Srank has been very open and honest about his belief that Marvel MAers (and characters in general) are just plain better in every way than DC MAers.

I think he grudgingly accepts that the best in DC beat the worst in Marvel...but again only grudgingly.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Srank has been very open and honest about his belief that Marvel MAers (and characters in general) are just plain better in every way than DC MAers.

I think he grudgingly accepts that the best in DC beat the worst in Marvel...but again only grudgingly.

What I believe is that by nature of Marvel having a much larger and more diverse street level "universe" then DC, where a larger number of character are allowed shine rather then just one, that Marvel innately have a handful of character that are operating on a higher tier then what we have seen in DC proper. I believe that in pure h2h skill more or less Batman = Daredevil, that Shang-Chi = Shiva, that Iron Fist = Richard, and that Captain America and Wolverine are above all of them, as they have been shown consistently to be. What do you believe? That Batman = Captain America? That Shiva > Captain America, and Shiva > Shang-Chi? Why. Based on what? I didn't formulate my hierarchy trying to work around the feelings of butt hurt sad sack Batman fans, I simply considered all the data and formulated and accurate and impartial order. I'm not going to compromise the truth to placate a bunch of Batman fanboys who are teary-eyed over the fact that he isn't as skilled as Captain America. At least my opinion is based off data more substantial the trite idea that"Batman and Captain America are the main street level heroes... so they must be equal!" dur

I believe Batman is the equal of Daredevil. Soooooooooooooooo unreasonable, because Daredevil is a f_cking noob, am I right? Christ, Batman fanboys. Maybe try not thinking about Batman long enough for you boners to die down so some blood can get back to your brain? But I don't know why I expect more from collective group of people who can only muster "lol Batkick!!!!" as their singular thought.

Not this BS again.

KK




Everyone else.

KK isn't part of DC proper and is as irrelevant as Batman 1Million, obviously they are the best.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What I believe is that by nature of Marvel having a much larger and more diverse street level "universe" then DC, where a larger number of character are allowed shine rather then just one, that Marvel innately have a handful of character that are operating on a higher tier then what we have seen in DC proper. I believe that in pure h2h skill more or less Batman = Daredevil, that Shang-Chi = Shiva, that Iron Fist = Richard, and that Captain America and Wolverine are above all of them, as they have been shown consistently to be. What do you believe? That Batman = Captain America? That Shiva > Captain America, and Shiva > Shang-Chi? Why. Based on what? I didn't formulate my hierarchy trying to work around the feelings of butt hurt sad sack Batman fans, I simply considered all the data and formulated and accurate and impartial order. I'm not going to compromise the truth to placate a bunch of Batman fanboys who are teary-eyed over the fact that he isn't as skilled as Captain America. At least my opinion is based off data more substantial the trite idea that"Batman and Captain America are the main street level heroes... so they must be equal!" dur

I believe Batman is the equal of Daredevil. Soooooooooooooooo unreasonable, because Daredevil is a f_cking noob, am I right? Christ, Batman fanboys. Maybe try not thinking about Batman long enough for you boners to die down so some blood can get back to your brain? But I don't know why I expect more from collective group of people who can only muster "lol Batkick!!!!" as their singular thought. See this is why no one can take you seriously on this site or on Comicvine. Vance Astro pretty much PROVED it to you that Daredevil and Batman are not equals and explained this to you. You stopped passing that BS off on Comicvine but chose to pass it off here instead. Daredevil was never Batman's equal. As far as Captain America goes, Iron Fist already stated that Captain America has a basic form and that he's stronger and faster then most opponents. I find it funny how you think Captain America is superior even though he's gotten his ass kicked by the likes of Wilson Fisk. The same Wilson Fisk that has never defeated Daredevil in a fair fight, the same Daredevil who you claim is Batman's equal.

i honestly dont see how anyone can really judge whether a marvel ma is better than a dc ma based on most ma showings or vice versa. Theyre two diffirent universes.

I just go off how many forms they actually know.

Originally posted by Srankthenoob
See this is why no one can take you seriously on this site or on Comicvine. Vance Astro pretty much PROVED it to you that Daredevil and Batman are not equals and explained this to you. You stopped passing that BS off on Comicvine but chose to pass it off here instead. Daredevil was never Batman's equal. As far as Captain America goes, Iron Fist already stated that Captain America has a basic form and that he's stronger and faster then most opponents. I find it funny how you think Captain America is superior even though he's gotten his ass kicked by the likes of Wilson Fisk. The same Wilson Fisk that has never defeated Daredevil in a fair fight, the same Daredevil who you claim is Batman's equal.

lol

Vance Astro tried, unsuccessfully, to "prove" that Batman and Daredevil were not equal, but he was unable to. His incredibly well thought out, and thought provoking "Zomg Batman trained with more people!" argument, just wasn't quite enough to prove anything.

Captain America does have a basic style, but he has a basic style because that is what works. It's called efficiency and economy of movement. Iron Fist jumps around like Bruce Lee, Captain America fights like a mixed martial artist. Have you wondered why you don't see any Kung-Fu in the octagon? Because it's useless. Captain America told Iron Fist he was more skilled, he's beaten Shang-Chi, Shang-Chi said Captain America was better, so did his rogues. There isn't a whole lot of discrepancy. Captain America is more skilled than Danny or Shang-Chi.

Kingpin has beaten Daredevil. With one punch. In the dark. After eating an ambush.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
KK isn't part of DC proper and is as irrelevant as Batman 1Million, obviously they are the best.

He's apart of DC comics and that's all that matters. Same as Batman 1M and now the WS characters. Deal.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
He's apart of DC comics and that's all that matters. Same as Batman 1M and now the WS characters. Deal.

The WS characters are part of standard DC continuity now so they matter, Karate Kid and Batman 1Million are not, and don't. You might as well be talking about Else Worlds or Earth 1, characters. If I asked you who the strongest character in DC was, and you told me Allstar Superman, I would call you an idiot.

KK is just from the future and has interacted with DC proper, but that's not why I included him. It's just that he's apart of the DCU. Whether that be an alternate reality/future.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
KK is just from the future and has interacted with DC proper, but that's not why I included him. It's just that he's apart of the DCU. Whether that be an alternate reality/future.

Ultimate Fantastic Four have interacted with Marvel proper, Old Man Logan has interacted with Marvel proper. If character aren't part of standard continuity, bringing them up in conversations about standard continuity is retarded.

I never said it was apart of standard DC, just that Val falls under the DCU. And he's the KING of streets.

He is the king of MAs, not streets, and still completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Just pointing out who's the king in any universe.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
At least my opinion is based off data more substantial the trite idea that"Batman and Captain America are the main street level heroes... so they must be equal!" dur

I see no data, evidence, or anything other than opinions coming from you.

If you've got data, cough it up. I see no reason to believe Captain America is a greater martial artist than Batman. Or vice-versa.

Oh, and...

KK (Who is part of DC "proper". WTF is that shit?)
...

...

...

Everyone else

Srank and Philo were supposed to do a Batman/Wolvie (Or Cap) battle, but it never fell through.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The WS characters are part of standard DC continuity now so they matter, Karate Kid and Batman 1Million are not, and don't. You might as well be talking about Else Worlds or Earth 1, characters. If I asked you who the strongest character in DC was, and you told me Allstar Superman, I would call you an idiot.

Legion of Super Heroes history keeps changing, but it's usually considered a little more relevant than an Elseworlds.

The Fatal Five being an example of their general acceptance on just about any board.

Originally posted by Cogito
I see no data, evidence, or anything other than opinions coming from you.

If you've got data, cough it up. I see no reason to believe Captain America is a greater martial artist than Batman. Or vice-versa.

Oh, and...

KK (Who is part of DC "proper". WTF is that shit?)
...

...

...

Everyone else

My reasoning on this subject is well documented on KMC. I'm sure a quick search would award you with many long posts analyzing the skill hierarchies in Marvel and DC and where they intersect.

Captain America is considered by his Marvel peers (and himself, but you can decide how much weight you put on Steve saying he is the greatest fighter who ever lived) to be one of the, if not the, forerunners for the coveted top spot on the "most skilled street" list. Batman is not a contender for the top DC spot and frankly he is lucky to crack the top five. There is evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, that Captain America is more skilled then Iron Fist and Shang-Chi. You might not agree with that evidence, and that is certainly your prerogative, but it exists. Is there any evidence that Batman is more skilled than Dragon, Bronze Tiger or Shiva? No, and not only is there no evidence that he is more skilled, but there are several narrative statements from Batman's friends / colleges that those characters (and several others) are more skilled then Bruce. Both of these universe have established - if flimsily so - skill hierarchies, we know where Captain America's peers place him, and we know where Batman's peers place him. On a top 10 list Captain America is vying for the top spot, while Batman is hovering around the middle. Captain America is just a bigger fish in a bigger pond.

If we decided arbitrarily that Batman = Captain America, then because of the established hierarchy that also concludes that Batman > Shang-Chi, Batman > Iron Fist, and Bronze Tiger >> Shang-Chi, and Dragon >> Iron Fist, which is absurd. Chi-amp aside, Shang-Chi, and Danny are all more or less analogous of Richard Dragon, and Bronze Tiger. Captain America is established in his universe as being more skilled then his uber kung-fu fighters, Batman is established as being less skilled then his. Of course, we aren't talking about an insurmountable skill gab here, all the characters on a top ten list of Martial Artists are within spiting distance of one another. Batman could still conceivably take Dragon or Tiger for close to the majority in a fight, but there is still a measurable - however slight it may be - difference between him and his peers. Batman and Daredevil are an intersection point on Marvel / DC skill comparison chart, Captain America is more skilled then either of them.

KK is not part of DC proper. He is an alternate history character that exists in a continuity separate from normal DC U. It has been said that it is the "true future" but there is like four different Legion continuities so I doubt that.

So...your entire argument is based on the fact that the top martial artist in DC must be equal to the top martial artist in Marvel?

What if all of those DC characters you mentioned were better than Cap? (I'm not saying they are...)

You say that if Batman = Cap, then Batman must be > Shang-Chi, etc. then blah blah other relatonships must be true, which is absurd. What's absurd here is your assbackwards logic.

what exactly would be anyones reason for placing cap over bruce?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
My reasoning on this subject is well documented on KMC. I'm sure a quick search would award you with many long posts analyzing the skill hierarchies in Marvel and DC and where they intersect.

Captain America is considered by his Marvel peers (and himself, but you can decide how much weight you put on Steve saying he is the greatest fighter who ever lived) to be one of the, if not the, forerunners for the coveted top spot on the "most skilled street" list. Batman is not a contender for the top DC spot and frankly he is lucky to crack the top five. There is evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, that Captain America is more skilled then Iron Fist and Shang-Chi. You might not agree with that evidence, and that is certainly your prerogative, but it exists. Is there any evidence that Batman is more skilled than Dragon, Bronze Tiger or Shiva? No, and not only is there no evidence that he is more skilled, but there are several narrative statements from Batman's friends / colleges that those characters (and several others) are more skilled then Bruce. Both of these universe have established - if flimsily so - skill hierarchies, we know where Captain America's peers place him, and we know where Batman's peers place him. On a top 10 list Captain America is vying for the top spot, while Batman is hovering around the middle. Captain America is just a bigger fish in a bigger pond.

If we decided arbitrarily that Batman = Captain America, then because of the established hierarchy that also concludes that Batman > Shang-Chi, Batman > Iron Fist, and Bronze Tiger >> Shang-Chi, and Dragon >> Iron Fist, which is absurd. Chi-amp aside, Shang-Chi, and Danny are all more or less analogous of Richard Dragon, and Bronze Tiger. Captain America is established in his universe as being more skilled then his uber kung-fu fighters, Batman is established as being less skilled then his. Of course, we aren't talking about an insurmountable skill gab here, all the characters on a top ten list of Martial Artists are within spiting distance of one another. Batman could still conceivably take Dragon or Tiger for close to the majority in a fight, but there is still a measurable - however slight it may be - difference between him and his peers. Batman and Daredevil are an intersection point on Marvel / DC skill comparison chart, Captain America is more skilled then either of them.

KK is not part of DC proper. He is an alternate history character that exists in a continuity separate from normal DC U. It has been said that it is the "true future" but there is like four different Legion continuities so I doubt that. how does how they rank in their own universes directly relate to how they would rank in others? If cap could be considered top in mu that means hed have to be over every dcu character?

double post

Originally posted by Cogito
So...your entire argument is based on the fact that the top martial artist in DC must be equal to the top martial artist in Marvel?

What if all of those DC characters you mentioned were better than Cap? (I'm not saying they are...)

You say that if Batman = Cap, then Batman must be > Shang-Chi, etc. then blah blah other relatonships must be true, which is absurd. What's absurd here is your assbackwards logic.

No, my argument is specifically that the top tier martial artists in DC aren't the equal of the top martial artist in Marvel. We know Batman and Captain America's in house skill placement relative to characters like Dragon and Shang-Chi, and those characters happen to be easily drawn parallels between the two universes.

If Batman is more or as skilled as Captain America, then he is also more skilled then everyone Marvel has established as being less skilled then Steve. The reality is that several of the characters Captain America is established as being more skilled then are more or less the equal of characters Batman has been established as being less skilled then.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No, my argument is specifically that the top tier martial artists in DC aren't the equal of the top martial artist in Marvel.
So you're making shit up. Ok.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
We know Batman and Captain America's in house skill placement relative to characters like Dragon and Shang-Chi, and those characters happen to be easily drawn parallels between the two universes.
Making more shit up. Ok.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If Batman is more or as skilled as Captain America, then he is also more skilled then everyone Marvel has established as being less skilled then Steve.
First logical thing you've said so far.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The reality is that several of the characters Captain America is established as being more skilled then are more or less the equal of characters Batman has been established as being less skilled then.
Making more shit up.

Which MU's MA's are above DC's? And how do they have more street levelers? Did you count them all? How many does MU have, compared to DC's number?

Srank is on ignore for me. It's the way to go really.

Originally posted by namorsubby
how does how they rank in their own universes directly relate to how they would rank in others? If cap could be considered top in mu that means hed have to be over every dcu character?

Largely I'm only concerning myself with the mainstream streets here to avoid a convoluted and over complicated hierarchy. There are earth bound heroes in both Marvel and DC who are more skilled then Captain America, they just aren't well known or are suitably obscure. There are the archetypal "Old Master" characters like Po, Sensei, O-Sense, Stick, I-Ching, Izo. Jin Si for example is a DC character more skilled then anyone on Marvel earth. White Crane. Black Dragon. Four different Karate Kids. A whole host of cosmic MAs. There are also characters like Tommy Jagger and Drakon who have put some effortless beat downs on top tier fights in DC, who I believe are contenders for the top DC spots, but lack enough feats for many people to support their placement. What Captain America is, is more skilled then any of the main stream status quo martial artist in DC (Batman, Canary, Cass, Shiva, Dragon, Tiger, Connor).

Don't forget the other Sensei. Not the Batman villain, but the one who was on that team. Forgot the title.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Which MU's MA's are above DC's? And how do they have more street levelers? Did you count them all? How many does MU have, compared to DC's number?

Cap, Electra and Wolverine.

How do they not have more street levelers? That should be blatantly obvious to a causal observer Prep-Man. The merger of the Wildstorm characters into the new continuity will serve to fill the gabs that DC's street was lacking prior to the reboot, and the inclusion of those characters - if treated right - will balance or tip the scale of back towards DC, but as it stands right now Marvel has a larger, more diverse and more active street level then DC does. I mean, hell, Shang-Chi has more appearances under his belt then Shiva, Richard Dragon and Bronze Tiger combined. DC street level is pretty much Batman, Nightwing and Tim, and then some Green Arrow for good measure. No Marvel street has as many appearances as Batman, but what they have instead is a much larger group of streets pushing 1000-2000 appearances then DC.

Originally posted by Cogito
Oh so your stating facts

Nice of you to notice.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Largely I'm only concerning myself with the mainstream streets here to avoid a convoluted and over complicated hierarchy. There are earth bound heroes in both Marvel and DC who are more skilled then Captain America, they just aren't well known or are suitably obscure. There are the archetypal "Old Master" characters like Po, Sensei, O-Sense, Stick, I-Ching, Izo. Jin Si for example is a DC character more skilled then anyone on Marvel earth. White Crane. Black Dragon. Four different Karate Kids. A whole host of cosmic MAs. There are also characters like Tommy Jagger and Drakon who have put some effortless beat downs on top tier fights in DC, who I believe are contenders for the top DC spots, but lack enough feats for many people to support their placement. What Captain America is, is more skilled then any of the main stream status quo martial artist in DC (Batman, Canary, Cass, Shiva, Dragon, Tiger, Connor). youre not answering my question. Why is he to be considered better than those dc mas? Even if he is possibly the top in the mu(not that im sayin he is). I dont see the logic behind that reasoning. I honestly think you just want cap to be better.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cap, Electra and Wolverine.

How do they not have more street levelers? That should be blatantly obvious to a causal observer Prep-Man. The merger of the Wildstorm characters into the new continuity will serve to fill the gabs that DC's street was lacking prior to the reboot, and the inclusion of those characters - if treated right - will balance or tip the scale of back towards DC, but as it stands right now Marvel has a larger, more diverse and more active street level then DC does. I mean, hell, Shang-Chi has more appearances under his belt then Shiva, Richard Dragon and Bronze Tiger combined. DC street level is pretty much Batman, Nightwing and Tim, and then some Green Arrow for good measure. No Marvel street has as many appearances as Batman, but what they have instead is a much larger group of streets pushing 1000-2000 appearances then DC.

I'm talking about DC history as a whole. Not just appearances, but actual numbers in characters. I've been matching street for street a long time. And Marvel's isn't far superior or numerical. Just what I see.

theres absolutely no reason to place any of those marvel mas above every dc ma. Srank just has always been marvel slanted. What real evidence could you even present as for as scans go? None.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Srank is on ignore for me. It's the way to go really. youre telling me.lol

Seriously though, the guy just fabricates his own theories and puts them out there as undeniable facts. Nevermind the fact that theres nothing in comics to support them.

Originally posted by namorsubby
youre not answering my question. Why is he to be considered better than those dc mas? Even if he is possibly the top in the mu(not that im sayin he is). I dont see the logic behind that reasoning. I honestly think you just want cap to be better.

Because Shang-Chi and Danny are the equal in skill of any DC street, ergo any character established as being more skilled is logically also more skilled then any DC character.

I'd place Shang or Danny on the meta soldier tier. Once they're amped, they are no longer streets. Same as Karate Kid. But in a hth battle, they are not more skilled than Batman or Shiva. Or Richard.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Because Shang-Chi and Danny are the equal in skill of any DC street, ergo any character established as being more skilled is logically also more skilled then any DC character. why srank? Why are they? Please stop just stating things as facts with nothing on panel to verify. What could you possibly SHOW anyone to support these beliefs?

Probably because they can use chi abilities.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'm talking about DC history as a whole. Not just appearances, but actual numbers in characters. I've been matching street for street a long time. And Marvel's isn't far superior or numerical. Just what I see.

So am I. Marvel has more street level characters then DC, and those characters get more appearances and more time in the spot light then their DC counter parts. It's a numbers game Marvel has more streets with higher number of appearances, and therefor publishes a higher number books with a street level focus, with a higher number of secondary characters and villains. Wolverine, Captain America, Spider-man, Punisher, Daredevil, Deadpool, Black Panther, all streets who pretty much have at least one solo title running in perpetuity. Then there are characters who might not have a solo running frequently but will get a new one every couple of years to test the water like Iron Fist, Elecktra, Blade and Moon Knight. Then we have new characters like Daken and X-23 who have new solos and already have more appearances then Cassandra Cain. DC has Batman, Tim, Dick, sometimes Catwoman and Green Arrow, and Hawkeye - who has never had an ongoing - has almost as many appearances as he Ollie does.

Give me numbers, because I count 176 on MU and 180 on DC's.

im just sayin hes acting as if these things are so clear cut. Theres really no way to rank these characters who reside in other universes so definitely. The best things to really go by is how many forms they know and show consistently.

I think it's about even myself, so I agree with ya.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Give me numbers, because I count 176 on MU and 180 on DC's.

Numbers of what? Every single street level character? I could probably name more then 176 characters just from Wolverine's solo adventures...

Originally posted by namorsubby
im just sayin hes acting as if these things are so clear cut. Theres really no way to rank these characters who reside in other universes so definitely. The best things to really go by is how many forms they know and show consistently.

Characters stated on panel to be masters of every fighting style:

Marvel:

Dragonfly
Mr. X
Cap
Shang-Chi (and Shang-Chi's father and all the monks he trained with)

Stated in Handbooks:

Wolverine
Daken
Azrael
Mr. X
Taskmaster
Ares


DC:

Batman
Possibly Shiva (but she also learns seven new styles a year... so that seems to contradict it)

And I can probably name more than that from all of batman's minis, ongoings, etc... He's been around a lot more than Wolverine.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Characters stated on panel to be masters of every fighting style:

Marvel:

Dragonfly
Mr. X
Cap
Shang-Chi (and Shang-Chi's father and all the monks he trained with)

Stated in Handbooks:

Wolverine
Daken
Azrael
Mr. X
Taskmaster
Ares


DC:

Batman
Possibly Shiva (but she also learns seven new styles a year... so that seems to contradict it) batman shows knowledge of different styles more than cap.

Whos actually been stated in comics to know these and backed by evidence of training.....besides bruce i mean?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
And I can probably name more than that from all of batman's minis, ongoings, etc... He's been around a lot more than Wolverine.

But Wolverine has likely had a comparable amount of appearances since the original crisis to now as Batman. Batman has more appearances then Wolverine over all, but YTD Wolverine has him beat, and Logan doesn't have a large chunk if completely irreverent continuity.

When I say DC as a whole, I'm counting all the streets from the Pre-Crisis era. Not just this era.

LOL @ Handbooks.

Originally posted by namorsubby
batman shows knowledge of different styles more than cap.

Whos actually been stated in comics to know these and backed by evidence of training.....besides bruce i mean?

I don't know, Captain America and Batman have probably demonstrated a comparable amount of variety and diversity in their combat styles, except Cap knows Gymkata, so he wins.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/th_Captain-America-616-pg-28.jpg

Daredevil is probably the character who has shown the most diverse fighting styles because different writers / artists have a different idea of how he should fight. Some times he fights like a boxer, some times he fights like a kung-fu master, some times he fights like a gymnast, some times he goes all ninja on everyone. Captain America and Batman pretty much fight like the are using Krav Maga or Combatives, with some spice thrown in.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Characters stated on panel to be masters of every fighting style:

Marvel:

blah blah


DC:

blah blah

So now the number of mostly fictional fighting styles between DC and Marvel must be the same?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
When I say DC as a whole, I'm counting all the streets from the Pre-Crisis era. Not just this era.

Even acknowledging that you are still wrong. Spider-man, Wolverine and Captain America, have more appearances than Batman, Commissioner Gordon, Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, and Green Arrow combined, and there is little cross-over in the Cap, Spidy, Wolverine appearances, where as a lot of the Gordon, Dick, Tim and Bruce appearances overlap, so it is an artificially high number relative to the individual issues published. And before you say it is unfair to compare Dick, Tim, Gordon and GA to Wolverine / Cap / Spidy, I hate to tell you but other then Batman those are the DC streets with the most appearances, and even some of those guys don't have as many appearances as Daredevil, Hawkeye, Punisher, Black Widow. There are just more Marvel street level books, and not just a little bit more, but a lot more.

Originally posted by Cogito
So now the number of mostly fictional fighting styles between DC and Marvel must be the same?

No, there are more fictional fighting styles in Marvel.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No, there are more fictional fighting styles in Marvel.

No, there are more fictional fighting styles in DC.

See what I just did there? I can make stuff up with the best of them.

Originally posted by Cogito
No, there are more fictional fighting styles in DC.

See what I just did there? I can make stuff up with the best of them.

Let me know when DC has eight trans-dimensional kung-fu realms, seven of which are focused sololy on the development of martial arts.

so. does anyone have an official number of dc streets compared to mu?

An endeavor to find out just how many "street" level characters Marvel or DC has is ridiculous, especially considering how "street" level is something that's open to interpretation.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Let me know when DC has eight trans-dimensional kung-fu realms, seven of which are focused sololy on the development of martial arts.

It's all fictional. All a writer has to do is say character x knows 9000 styles of martial arts and there you have it. The number of trans-dimensional realms is not important.

Even if Marvel had more styles of Martial Arts, and I'm not saying they do, knowing more doesn't make someone better. Will said fictional character who knows 9000 styles use them all in a fight? Of course not.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank An endeavor to find out just how many "street" level characters Marvel or DC has is ridiculous, especially considering how "street" level is something that's open to interpretation.

i agree. the only way someone were to know the real number is if you read every comic there was. or if the company were to have an official list.

Originally posted by Cogito
It's all fictional. All a writer has to do is say character x knows 9000 styles of martial arts and there you have it. The number of trans-dimensional realms is not important.

Even if Marvel had more styles of Martial Arts, and I'm not saying they do, knowing more doesn't make someone better. Will said fictional character who knows 9000 styles use them all in a fight? Of course not.

And the day a writer says "character x knows 9000 styles," you'll have a point, but as it stands Marvel has more fictional martial arts known to exist as I am posting this, next Wednesday that could change if someone at DC wanted it to and decided to introduce a large number of new styles.

I don't really care about the number of fighting styles known, one of you guys brought it up as the means that should be used to determine who is more skilled, and I merely pointed out that even with that criteria it still falls towards Marvel. You guys just let me know how you want to determine who is more skilled and I will inform you why Marvel has the advantage.

are you guys still going to have the forum battle? cause right now i dont see mu being more skilled.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
are you guys still going to have the forum battle? cause right now i dont see mu being more skilled.

You also don't think Marvel has a larger street level sect either, so your mind is clearly all busted up.

because they dont. unless you can give me an offical number.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
because they dont. unless you can give me an offical number.

I'm not sure if this cup can hold more water then my bathtub. I need to know the exact number of milliliters it can hold nao! durredhulk

It's not something that requires precise numbers, it is plainly visible. Do you remember how I told you about the appearance numbers of the top street level characters in DC, and then compared them to Marvel? It was earlier today... just a few hours ago. Do you remember that? More appearances. More books. More characters. Pretty simple bro. If you have a 10 square foot patch of sand, and a 20 square foot patch of sand, you don't need to count the number of grains of sand to know there is more in the 20 square foot patch..

sorry, if you said they had more, i thought u would have a number. no need to get angry.

Thread derailment ftw.

Staff blast ftw.