Current Hulk vs Superman Prime

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ It's fine if you can't see the difference between blowing up a planet directly with blows or energy discharges, and blowing it up accidentally with an impact not even directed at a planet. Not surprised.

Ion Sodam Yat held his own for a good long while against Superman Prime (unamped) and really started faltering only when the lead poisoning kicked in. I see current Worldbreaker Hulk as physically over Ion Sodam Yat.

And I'm discounting all-out Worldbreaker Hulk from that equation.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Like I said, I'm not surprised you don't see the difference.

Prime getting KTFO by a universal explosion and surviving it alongside a tiny sprouting plant doesn't impress me. An amped Prime's been overpowered by less, i.e., Monarch who beat the entire Guardian amp out of him physically. And no, the cumulative damage Monarch beat him down with =/= universal explosion. What's not impressive about surviving an explosion like that?

I believe Monarch, while holding his own, was on the receiving end of that fight, being why, you know, he exploded? Also, that Monarch was a complete monster. And... He had the amp through the Monarch fight, he didn't have it after the explosion, so it wasn't beaten out of him. Monarch himself said he was packing the energy of a big bang, and the moment he actually caused Prime pain, Prime tore him up and released it, and survived it.

And that Sodam Yat showing was meant to be very impressive, I suppose it just flew by you though, Superboy had pretty much just fought a JLA/JSA+ lineup iirc, through the night... while on low power, and they were hardly a challenge for him, but finally were about to get him as he was running completely out of juice.... once the sun hit him, they all put on their "Oh shit" face, as he simply shrugged off them all off.. Obviously meant to portray that they'd hardly be a challenge to him at this point. .. and then Sadam came in and took to him one on one for a while. And if my holding his own, you mean, tackling into him and going into the water for a moment before Prime smashed his face to pieces and then shoved a uranium rod through his stomach that breached his shields which let the lead in, sure. Yat wasn't in a fight to win, he was in a fight for survival after the initial contact was made.

Mindset

Originally posted by Juntai
He had the amp through the Monarch fight, he didn't have it after the explosion, so it wasn't beaten out of him. The text is dodgy, Prime had either completely used up his amp while fighting Monarch or it was almost gone.

Juntai

Originally posted by Mindset
The text is dodgy, Prime had either completely used up his amp while fighting Monarch or it was almost gone. Fair enough, that's why I wasn't basing it entirely on Monarch's text, mostly only taking the idea that when it's used up, he'll be a kid again.... he still looked adult until the end, the explosion, until next time we see him. Also, there's no telling how much of that energy was spent before ever encountering Monarch. Monarch just noticed that as it's used, he reverts.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Juntai
What's not impressive about surviving an explosion like that? What's not to impress when a tiny sapling shared his feat? All kidding aside, I just treat his feat as being too similar to Vision and Wonder Man surviving ground zero of the Shiar Negabomb that wrecked a galaxy. Originally posted by Juntai
I believe Monarch, while holding his own, was on the receiving end of that fight, being why, you know, he exploded? Also, that Monarch was a complete monster. And... He had the amp through the Monarch fight, he didn't have it after the explosion, so it wasn't beaten out of him. Monarch himself said he was packing the energy of a big bang, and the moment he actually caused Prime pain, Prime tore him up and released it, and survived it. Monarch beat down Guardian Superman Prime. Unclear artwork notwithstanding, Monarch exclaimed he had beaten the amp out and Superman Prime didn't deny that as he was too busy being visibly hurt by Monarch's assault. It's my opinion that if he took on regular Superman Prime from the start, he would have wrecked him something fierce.Originally posted by Juntai
And that Sodam Yat showing was meant to be very impressive, I suppose it just flew by you though, Superboy had pretty much just fought a JLA/JSA+ lineup iirc, through the night... while on low power, and they were hardly a challenge for him, but finally were about to get him as he was running completely out of juice.... once the sun hit him, they all put on their "Oh shit" face, as he simply shrugged off them all off.. Obviously meant to portray that they'd hardly be a challenge to him at this point. .. and then Sadam came in and took to him one on one for a while. And if my holding his own, you mean, tackling into him and going into the water for a moment before Prime smashed his face to pieces and then shoved a uranium rod through his stomach that breached his shields which let the lead in, sure. Yat wasn't in a fight to win, he was in a fight for survival after the initial contact was made. Yat was doing alright up until the point he had lead stabbed into him. And even after that, he was going strong. He did get outlasted and yes, he did better than the combined ninjas heroes in Sinestro Corps War. So I'm not sure what we're disputing. And, while it's tiresome for some to hear, he was actually holding back for a while too.

I believe the physical ability necessary to match Superman Prime lies somewhere between a healthy Sodam Yat and Monarch. And it's far closer to Sodam Yat. And I think that's well within current Worldbreaker Hulk's range.

Sundipped

Monarch didn't beat the amp outa prime. He barely did any damage. The events leading up to his showdown with Monarch + energy used to challenge him exausted his amp. The only time Monarch really hurt Prime was when he released that nuke type explosion. Other than that, Prime had that fight totally under control.

Bentley

Prime owns. He doesn't even register Hulk.

Batman-Prime

Looking at it, Prime did rather well. Neither could do serious Damage to the other. Though Monach looked more impressive because he took a worse beating, Prime survived an Universal Explosion point blank. He was Koed but there are few who wouldn't have been.

I think that Monarch was superior to Prime, if he was toying with him or if he tried to make him insecure, one can't tell for sure, though he was surprised that Prime survived his attack and it was pretty obvious that he couldn't finish the amped Prime, he fought and tried to keep on fighting till Prime run out of juice. If he could have finished him earlier he would have done so.

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What's not to impress when a tiny sapling shared his feat? All kidding aside, I just treat his feat as being too similar to Vision and Wonder Man surviving ground zero of the Shiar Negabomb that wrecked a galaxy. Monarch beat down Guardian Superman Prime. Unclear artwork notwithstanding, Monarch exclaimed he had beaten the amp out and Superman Prime didn't deny that as he was too busy being visibly hurt by Monarch's assault. It's my opinion that if he took on regular Superman Prime from the start, he would have wrecked him something fierce. Yat was doing alright up until the point he had lead stabbed into him. And even after that, he was going strong. He did get outlasted and yes, he did better than the combined ninjas heroes in Sinestro Corps War. So I'm not sure what we're disputing. And, while it's tiresome for some to hear, he was actually holding back for a while too.

I believe the physical ability necessary to match Superman Prime lies somewhere between a healthy Sodam Yat and Monarch. And it's far closer to Sodam Yat. And I think that's well within current Worldbreaker Hulk's range. Doing alright? He had his face smashed in and a uranium rod shoved through his stomach, before any lead took any effect on his body. It wasn't lead that was shoved into him, the lead AROUND him was allowed in when Superboy effortless jabbed through his shielding and his body with a uranium rod. After initial contact was made with Superboy, he was in a fight for survival, not a fight to win. Tackling him into water and shooting heat vision into him did little to persuade me he was actually handling his own in that fight when the next couple of panels have him being absolutely wrecked, blood flying from his face and a hole through his abdomen. Lucky to survive if anything.

How can you say Superman Prime is between Monarch and Sodam Yat, when invariably, he defeated and nearly killed both of them and neither of them did any real signifant damage to him outside of a universal level quantum explosion going off in his face?

And perhaps I'm a bit behind on Hulk, I haven't been on the forums in some time, but what has he done that's even remotely close to what Prime was doing in countdown and SCWar, because the stuff I do know, like the old WWH material.. he didn't even scratch that surface.

Zack Fair

You are better off not knowing unless you want to risk infection...

iceman24567

Originally posted by Mindset
The text is dodgy, Prime had either completely used up his amp while fighting Monarch or it was almost gone. Your face is dodgy

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by guy222
http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/8588876_Incredible_Hulks_634_011.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/8588877_Incredible_Hulks_634_012.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/8588878_Incredible_Hulks_634_014.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/8588879_Incredible_Hulks_634_015-16.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/8588881_Incredible_Hulks_634_017.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/8588882_Incredible_Hulks_634_018.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/8588883_Incredible_Hulks_634_019-20.jpg

http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?pid=9403&pg=3

Actually quite impressive.

Credit goes to Guy222, the best there is smile

PG postet it also, so also respect to him wink

shokosugi

why what's current hulk like these days? i dont follow Hulk. can someone show me some scans?

psycho gundam

Originally posted by psycho gundam
inb4guy

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulk.jpg
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulk2.jpg
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulk3.jpg
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulk4.jpg
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulk6.jpg
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulk7.jpg
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulk8.jpg
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulk9.jpg
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulk10.jpg
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulk11.jpg

shokosugi

thanks

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Juntai
Doing alright? He had his face smashed in and a uranium rod shoved through his stomach, before any lead took any effect on his body. It wasn't lead that was shoved into him, the lead AROUND him was allowed in when Superboy effortless jabbed through his shielding and his body with a uranium rod. After initial contact was made with Superboy, he was in a fight for survival, not a fight to win. Tackling him into water and shooting heat vision into him did little to persuade me he was actually handling his own in that fight when the next couple of panels have him being absolutely wrecked, blood flying from his face and a hole through his abdomen. Lucky to survive if anything.Yeah, I think Sodam Yat was doing alright. The lead wasn't shoved into him, you're right on that. But the lead was powering him down before he got stabbed. His shields tried to compensate, but like you said, the shields were breached. And I don't think Yat did as bad as you believe. They were fighting hard both before and right after the lead poisoning for pages, a time where Sodam Yat was still holding back. Eventually, in the last two pages, Prime completely overwhelmed him, but not before Yat put up a strong fight and drew his share of blood from Prime. Considering the fight he put up while holding back and even when he got poisoned, a healthy Sodam Yat is a notch or two below Superman Prime. Originally posted by Juntai
How can you say Superman Prime is between Monarch and Sodam Yat, when invariably, he defeated and nearly killed both of them and neither of them did any real signifant damage to him outside of a universal level quantum explosion going off in his face? Superman Prime unamped is below Monarch. I know this because Monarch beat the Guardian power out of an amped Superman Prime. The convenient containment suit rupture was Superman Prime's only chance, and he he undisputingly took it. Having the Guardian amp beaten out of him = significant damage which Monarch rendered. Originally posted by Juntai
And perhaps I'm a bit behind on Hulk, I haven't been on the forums in some time, but what has he done that's even remotely close to what Prime was doing in countdown and SCWar, because the stuff I do know, like the old WWH material.. he didn't even scratch that surface. Prime's rampage against the ninjas heroes rivaled WWIII Black Adam's rampage. And Prime never reached a level where holding back, he was taking foosteps and wrecking continents.

Monarch => Guardian-amped Superman Prime >>>>> Superman Prime >> healthy Ion Sodam Yat. I have no problem believing that and placing current Hulk right there with both Prime and Yat physically.

Nihilist

Prime in both.

cdtm

I don't get why Sodam Yats powers even made a difference.. They should be nothing compared to Superboy Primes.

Did the Ion Power upgrade them somehow?

celeyhyga17

1. Prime barely
2. Prime (not a stomp)

tsscls

Superman-Prime is the guardian amped version of sbp as seen in Countdown. He takes both scenarios easily.

tsscls

SBP is above PC kryptonian power levels. Read his debut in DC comics presents. He hasn't done anything to lower himself in the Titans yet.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by cdtm
I don't get why Sodam Yats powers even made a difference.. They should be nothing compared to Superboy Primes.

Did the Ion Power upgrade them somehow? Yes, the Ion upgrade made Sodam Yat more powerful. Originally posted by tsscls
SBP is above PC kryptonian power levels if you, y'know, completely ignore every single thing he's done since he's been re-introduced. Fixed.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by shokosugi
why what's current hulk like these days?

Upgraded to Skyfather.

He'll be taking over for a retiring Zeus.

cdtm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes, the Ion upgrade made Sodam Yat more powerful. Fixed.

I mean his base Daxamite powers.

I understand the Ion power made him powerful, but the comic made a big deal about his Daxamite powers manifesting under a yellow sun, which should be vastly inferior to his Ion power, or Superboy Primes power set.

tsscls

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes, the Ion upgrade made Sodam Yat more powerful. Fixed.

He hasn't really done anything yet. Yes it looks like he'll be a putz, but what has he done for anyone to say he's been depowered?

OneDumbG0

^ I don't have to prove a negative. Prove to me, through on-panel feats, that Superman Prime is stronger than a PC Kryptonian, y'know... the dudes that sneeze away solar systems. Because that's what you asserted and your conclusion is what I'm disagreeing with.Originally posted by cdtm
I mean his base Daxamite powers.

I understand the Ion power made him powerful, but the comic made a big deal about his Daxamite powers manifesting under a yellow sun, which should be vastly inferior to his Ion power, or Superboy Primes power set. I'm not sure how this matters either way so I'm not sure how to respond. I have no doubt that the In power made him stronger, more durable, and have a greater healing factor at the very least. But being a Daxamite heavily impacted the fight because lead poisoning is the touch of death for them. Even with the full Ion power at his command, he couldn't reverse the damage.

Batman-Prime

^Hasn't Superboy Prime moved Planets at Superspeed? Didn't he changed the center of the Universe with his bare Hands? Didn't he punched his way out of the most ridiculous things (Speedforce etc.)?

OneDumbG0

^ PC Superman moved Earth at FTL speeds. PC Superman also actually moved Earth just using his superbreath. Even more than that, PC Superman has moved stars with his superbreath. And even more than that, PC Superman sneezed away an entire solar system.

Moving a planet at superspeed does not approach the upper range of those feats above. Superman Prime would need to move a galaxy's worth of planets simultaneously to approach PC Superboy.

Changing the center of the universe was the result of planet-moving. He never punched out of the Speedforce. He punched out of the Phantom Zone. And PC Superman was busting through so many barriers that he nearly busted through the barrier to Heaven which would have destroyed countless civilizations.

Superman Prime is far below PC Kryptonians.

iceman24567

I thought it was always assumed that Prime broke out of the speed force by going ftl?

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ PC Superman moved Earth at FTL speeds. PC Superman also actually moved Earth just using his superbreath. Even more than that, PC Superman has moved stars with his superbreath. And even more than that, PC Superman sneezed away an entire solar system.

Moving a planet at superspeed does not approach the upper range of those feats above. Superman Prime would need to move a galaxy's worth of planets simultaneously to approach PC Superboy.

Changing the center of the universe was the result of planet-moving. He never punched out of the Speedforce. He punched out of the Phantom Zone. And PC Superman was busting through so many barriers that he nearly busted through the barrier to Heaven which would have destroyed countless civilizations.

Superman Prime is far below PC Kryptonians.

Changing the center of the Universe would require to move not only Planet at > FTL speed but Stars. Some Galaxies worth of Stars and Planets. Don't you think? Depends on where the new center is supposed to be. I would have to reread IC to see where it moved. But he had to move them > FTL speed else he would need hundreds of years.

TBH this is a PCesque feat in my book. And I read almost only PC stuff in the 80ties and was still a lot in PC during the early 90ties.

Ok then the Phantom Zone and the place he was with Kal-L. Still impressive enough, even in PC days.

Gecko4lif

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Prime.

This Gammatard wankage is as bad as the Void nonsense a year back.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by iceman24567
I thought it was always assumed that Prime broke out of the speed force by going ftl? IIRC, the speedsters brought Superboy Prime into the future. Jay, who couldn't keep up and was left in the present, ended up being disconnected from the Speedforce at that point. Superboy Prime was imprisoned by the speedsters within a room with red sunlight off-panel. Somehow, he constructed his sunlight Anti-Monitor armor, broke out and time-traveled back to the present time. Bart ended up using the Speedforce to travel backwards in time but, for whatever reason, because he was pushing himself so hard (because he wanted to arrive in advance of Superboy Prime), Bart ended up losing his connection to the Speedforce also.

I don't recall Superman Prime ever "breaking" the Speedforce. Somehow, Jay and Bart's connection to it was severed as a result of time-traveling. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Changing the center of the Universe would require to move not only Planet at > FTL speed but Stars. Some Galaxies worth of Stars and Planets. Don't you think? Depends on where the new center is supposed to be. I would have to reread IC to see where it moved. But he had to move them > FTL speed else he would need hundreds of years.

TBH this is a PCesque feat in my book. And I read almost only PC stuff in the 80ties and was still a lot in PC during the early 90ties.

Ok then the Phantom Zone and the place he was with Kal-L. Still impressive enough, even in PC days. Superman Prime never moved stars around. Only planets. And they never said how many. I don't know why slightly shifting the orbits of certain planets ended up changing the center of the universe. It just did.

Kal-L when he returned wasn't PC levels either as he was evenly fighting Kal-El. So the strength to bust the dimensional barriers of their Paradise required only Superman-level strength. Not PC-Kryptonian strength.

Bottom-line, Superman Prime ain't sneezing away a solar system.

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman Prime never moved stars around. Only planets. And they never said how many. I don't know why slightly shifting the orbits of certain planets ended up changing the center of the universe. It just did.

Kal-L when he returned wasn't PC levels either as he was evenly fighting Kal-El. So the strength to bust the dimensional barriers of their Paradise required only Superman-level strength. Not PC-Kryptonian strength.

Bottom-line, Superman Prime ain't sneezing away a solar system.

Maybe Kal-el has become so powerful over time that he could keep up with an old PC Kryptonian? Kal-L also wasn't able to punch his way out of their place as easy as SBP did. SBP was obviously stronger.

Changing the Center of the Universe... slightly changing the orbits of certain planets? I had to overread a page leading to such a conclusion, my bad.
I think it's more likely that he had to move some Planets, the Suns and everything else around to another place to change the center of the Universe.
I disagree with your interpretation completly. While the comic surely wanted to show SBP impressive strength your version would make everything seem like it was nothing special at all. I think that's more unlikely.

Sneezing away solar system wasn't in every PC comic, most of those I read were on par or even quite below of what SBP did in IC.
There were a lot of comics during this time and sure, the most impressive feats became a myth but they were far from the regular, on the contrary, they were exceptions.

Like almost always I have to disagree with your version. smile

OneDumbG0

^ I'm not dignifying this with a response.

Do yourself a favor and go hate on current Hulk. You're better at it than trying to pretend that current Superman is a PC Kryptonian, let alone Superman Prime being one.

CosmicComet

PC Superman pushed a star back with his super breath.

When did Prime do anything that ridiculous?

Galan007

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I'm not dignifying this with a response.

Do yourself a favor and go hate on current Hulk. You're better at it than trying to pretend that current Superman is a PC Kryptonian, let alone Superman Prime being one. Fanboy.

vin

carver9

I thought I was the only one that noticed he was hating on Hulk.

h1a8

OneDumbG0 has proven to be Marvel bias to the highest degree. In every single thread he has argued against D.C. and for Marvel (not even me nor Quanchi nor Carver nor whoever has done that). Every thread! His opinion can't be respected.

With that said, Prime wins.

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by h1a8
OneDumbG0 has proven to be Marvel bias to the highest degree. In every single thread he has argued against D.C. and for Marvel (not even me nor Quanchi nor Carver nor whoever has done that). Every thread! His opinion can't be respected.

With that said, Prime wins.

lmao

Batman-Prime

We talked about Prime. How do you come to this conclusion? If it helps you feel better, more power to you.

Nice try. Predictable but nice.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
PC Superman got beat by far less than foes who could tow planets around. A lot.

Same with the Legion.

So... unless Mongul was chuckin planets at PC Superman or the Legion... feats? Please?

So PC Superman wasn't always that impressive, according to you.

You are astonishing, sometimes.

I could claim that you love Marvel (and Hulk) and hate DC (or Superman) but why should I. You are so reasonable...

Nevermind. I shouldn't have "dignify" this with a response, my bad. wink

OneDumbG0

^ So you were talking about watered down PC Kryptonians circa mid-1980s right before the original Crisis? That's what you were invoking when you said "Superman Prime was greater than a PC Kryptionian?"

I have no real issues with that. Originally posted by h1a8
OneDumbG0 has proven to be Marvel bias to the highest degree. In every single thread he has argued against D.C. and for Marvel (not even me nor Quanchi nor Carver nor whoever has done that). Every thread! His opinion can't be respected.

With that said, Prime wins. http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfg8dlLfCO1qzvevko1_400.jpg

Having been called a DC fanboy more than once, I find your accusation to be... inaccurate, to say the least. Countering your ongoing nonsense in several threads =/= Marvel fanboyism. Your frustrations with me are misplaced. Don't hate me for slapping your stupid around. Stupid deserves to be slapped. It's God's way.

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yeah, I think Sodam Yat was doing alright. The lead wasn't shoved into him, you're right on that. But the lead was powering him down before he got stabbed. His shields tried to compensate, but like you said, the shields were breached. And I don't think Yat did as bad as you believe. They were fighting hard both before and right after the lead poisoning for pages, a time where Sodam Yat was still holding back. Eventually, in the last two pages, Prime completely overwhelmed him, but not before Yat put up a strong fight and drew his share of blood from Prime. Considering the fight he put up while holding back and even when he got poisoned, a healthy Sodam Yat is a notch or two below Superman Prime. Superman Prime unamped is below Monarch. I know this because Monarch beat the Guardian power out of an amped Superman Prime. The convenient containment suit rupture was Superman Prime's only chance, and he he undisputingly took it. Having the Guardian amp beaten out of him = significant damage which Monarch rendered. Prime's rampage against the ninjas heroes rivaled WWIII Black Adam's rampage. And Prime never reached a level where holding back, he was taking foosteps and wrecking continents.

Monarch => Guardian-amped Superman Prime >>>>> Superman Prime >> healthy Ion Sodam Yat. I have no problem believing that and placing current Hulk right there with both Prime and Yat physically. Fair enough, a lot of that is of your opinion of the events and they are logically sound. A couple things to clarify though...

There's nothing to say he beat the amp out of Prime, only mentioned that the amp was almost gone. And it could easily be because Prime was doing a lot of stuff on and off panel in between point A and B there. He was punching his way through dimensions, killing heros, etc.

It could also be just as easily dismissed as posturing, he was calling him a child in a man's body, saying he was running out of energy, saying he'd consider giving him a job, and that's just on that page.

Even seeing it as Monarch being more powerful and the amp putting him up on that level, he was on that level while still nearly running out and then ended up winning anyways. Both of them were teambusters.

As for the ninja effect? Superboy Prime was ninja effecting everyone from his first re-appearance onwards. It's clear what level he was meant to be on, and it was vastly over Earth's heros. Look at how many guys he defeated or killed, and how many teams of heros he clashed with. And that's the difference between Black Adam and Superboy Prime. Prime was never near Black Adam level, before or afterwards. It wasn't a one time deal. He -let- Black Adam level into him with his best shots, then smiled and said it tickled. Even the Guardians, with the heros, and the Corps were no match for him, even before his upgrade.

Sodam Yat going into a fight with Superboy Prime and surviving it was impressive, that was what it deliberately meaning to portray. That his heritage, ring, and ION power, put him on a level where he could contend with Superboy Prime for a short time, but still several notches below him. Prime was toying with him, was never really threatened by him, and was smashing him fairly easily. And then just looked around and said "Whos next?" at the end of it.

dmills

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Your frustrations with me are misplaced. Don't hate me for slapping your stupid around. Stupid deserves to be slapped. It's God's way.

Ouch. laughing out loud

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ So you were talking about watered down PC Kryptonians circa mid-1980s right before the original Crisis? That's what you were invoking when you said "Superman Prime was greater than a PC Kryptionian?"

So they are differen't characters then... ok, good you tell me this... now.

Did I say that SBP was greater then a PC Kryptonian? I don't think so.
He was greater then Kal-L, maybe this is what made you think so. But if you read IC he was, i guess, wasn't he?
I mean one could argue how he survived the Universebuster that koed him, maybe he had still some amp in him, or he was koed because he was teleported away, wait I see a flower coming my way!
But surviving an Universebuster point blank, would this qualify as PCesque?

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
TBH this is a PCesque feat in my book. And I read almost only PC stuff in the 80ties and was still a lot in PC during the early 90ties.

Ok then the Phantom Zone and the place he was with Kal-L. Still impressive enough, even in PC days.

Even in PC days. Good old PC days with a lot of comics, a lot of good feats and some epic-feats. Yes, yes.

Since you didn't fell the need to adress any point that doesn't helps you case and ignore everything that you (understandably) don't like (though, it's obvious why), I think I shouldn't bother, right?

namorsubby

when you logically think about the astronomical advantage prime has in speed along with varying ranged attacks he possesses.......theres really no way he can lose.

Juntai

And for this part, unless you're talking of a different instance , in WWH, Hulk was STOMPING the ground -- not stepping across it --and causing quakes which were threatening the EASTERN SEABOARD, not entire continents.

To put this into perspective, a vastly weaker Superman and Doomsday were causing quakes across the entire PLANET just by duking it out.

Not directly stomping it.

This was before post Crisis Superman even did any of his bigger feats, which didn't come until getting powered up post-ressurection.

Badabing

Originally posted by Estacado
Prime killed Betty so Hulk goes super apeshit fight is on Earth Prime.

1.Normal Prime
2.with Guardian amp

Who wins? I'm leaning toward Hulk in the first match. He's been shown at stupid levels the past few issues.

Prime wins the second handily.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
So they are differen't characters then... ok, good you tell me this... now.

Did I say that SBP was greater then a PC Kryptonian? I don't think so.
He was greater then Kal-L, maybe this is what made you think so. But if you read IC he was, i guess, wasn't he?
I mean one could argue how he survived the Universebuster that koed him, maybe he had still some amp in him, or he was koed because he was teleported away, wait I see a flower coming my way!
But surviving an Universebuster point blank, would this qualify as PCesque?

Even in PC days. Good old PC days with a lot of comics, a lot of good feats and some epic-feats. Yes, yes.

Since you didn't fell the need to adress any point that doesn't helps you case and ignore everything that you (understandably) don't like (though, it's obvious why), I think I shouldn't bother, right? Kal-L wasn't at PC Kryptonian levels either when he returned in Infinite Crisis. Unless you want to invoke watered down PC Kryptonians. The fact is, you tried to compare and match Superman Prime's feats with the top level of PC Kryptonian feats, i.e., moving around a galaxy's worth of planets simultaneously. So, thanks for jumping into a conversation about PC Kryptonians, talking about the highest level of PC Kryptonian feats, then moving the goalposts to watered down PC Kryptonians.

As I've explained before, you want to give Superman Prime and that little sapling all due credit for surviving a universe buster point-blank, give Wonder Man and Vision all due credit for surviving a galaxy-buster point-blank.

I think you should adopt a better strategy here. Because all that moving the goalposts does is reveal how ineffectually weak your original positions and intentions were.

... y'know what? Go ahead and move the goalpposts some more. kinda

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Juntai
Fair enough, a lot of that is of your opinion of the events and they are logically sound. A couple things to clarify though...

There's nothing to say he beat the amp out of Prime, only mentioned that the amp was almost gone. And it could easily be because Prime was doing a lot of stuff on and off panel in between point A and B there. He was punching his way through dimensions, killing heros, etc.

It could also be just as easily dismissed as posturing, he was calling him a child in a man's body, saying he was running out of energy, saying he'd consider giving him a job, and that's just on that page.Considering Guardian Superman Prime wasn't noticeably any weaker when he first engaged Monarch and the statements made, I'm going to go with Monarch beating the Guardian amp out of him. Originally posted by Juntai
Even seeing it as Monarch being more powerful and the amp putting him up on that level, he was on that level while still nearly running out and then ended up winning anyways. Both of them were teambusters.C'mon. Plot device. How many times has Captain Atom or Firestorm or other nuclear reactor-like comic characters been done in by containment suit rupture? It was cheap. And getting KTFO isn't a win in my book. Originally posted by Juntai
As for the ninja effect? Superboy Prime was ninja effecting everyone from his first re-appearance onwards. It's clear what level he was meant to be on, and it was vastly over Earth's heros. Look at how many guys he defeated or killed, and how many teams of heros he clashed with. And that's the difference between Black Adam and Superboy Prime. Prime was never near Black Adam level, before or afterwards. It wasn't a one time deal. Even the Guardians, with the heros, and the Corps were no match for him, even before his upgrade.Kept running away from Bart Allen. And Bart Allen was actually less effective the more speedsters there were. Total ninja effect. One Guardian physically overpowered him and transported him atom by atom. The Guardian who stated that Superman Prime had encountered a power that eclipsed his own. And based on what that Guardian did, I'm inclined to agree despite how many times Ganthet jobs himself out.Originally posted by Juntai
Sodam Yat going into a fight with Superboy Prime and surviving it was impressive, that was what it deliberately meaning to portray. That his heritage, ring, and ION power, put him on a level where he could contend with Superboy Prime for a short time, but still several notches below him. Prime was toying with him, was never really threatened by him, and was smashing him fairly easily. And then just looked around and said "Whos next?" at the end of it. I agree that Ion Sodam Yat is several notches below Superman Prime... when he is holding back, is inexperienced with his powers and has just suffered serious lead poisoning that even the entire Ion power can't reverse.

Otherwise, a healthy Ion Sodam Yat going all-out is a notch or two below Superman Prime, who himself is a notch or three below Guardian-amp Superman Prime or Monarch. Originally posted by Juntai
And for this part, unless you're talking of a different instance , in WWH, Hulk was STOMPING the ground -- not stepping across it --and causing quakes which were threatening the EASTERN SEABOARD, not entire continents. It was a footstep. Everybody called it a footstep. Hulk, Banner and Cho confirmed he was holding back. Kinda obvious when he asked people to stop him before he destroyed the world. And breaking off an entire continental coastline is threatening the continent. Again, while holding back. Originally posted by Juntai
To put this into perspective, a vastly weaker Superman and Doomsday were causing quakes across the entire PLANET just by duking it out.

Not directly stomping it.

This was before post Crisis Superman even did any of his bigger feats, which didn't come until getting powered up post-ressurection. Savage Hulk has caused earthquakes to register across the planet as well. And neither of them were breaking the continental coastline with footsteps while holding back.

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Kal-L wasn't at PC Kryptonian levels either when he returned in Infinite Crisis. Unless you want to invoke watered down PC Kryptonians. The fact is, you tried to compare and match Superman Prime's feats with the top level of PC Kryptonian feats, i.e., moving around a galaxy's worth of planets simultaneously. So, thanks for jumping into a conversation about PC Kryptonians, talking about the highest level of PC Kryptonian feats, then moving the goalposts to watered down PC Kryptonians.

As I've explained before, you want to give Superman Prime and that little sapling all due credit for surviving a universe buster point-blank, give Wonder Man and Vision all due credit for surviving a galaxy-buster point-blank.

I think you should adopt a better strategy than moving the goalposts. Because all that movign the goalposts does is reveal how ineffectually weak your original positions and intentions were.

... y'know what. Go ahead and move the goalpposts some more. kinda You and I both know the sappling being there, which may have been because Monarchs power, the Monitors power, or any other variable, was there solely as a metaphor. Everything in the universe died. Failed attempts at ownplaying it is just lame.

OneDumbG0

^ Considering that it doesn't take a universe blowing up to beat up a Guardian-amped Superman Prime, or a universe blowing up to atomize Superman Prime and fling him across the Multiverse, I'll place that feat in the same basket as Wonder Man and Vision surviving a galaxy buster.

Universe-buster durable sapling, notwithstanding.

Omega Vision

Wasn't that plant inside of the Monitor's personal shielding?

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Considering Guardian Superman Prime wasn't noticeably any weaker when he first engaged Monarch and the statements made, I'm going to go with Monarch beating the Guardian amp out of him. OK, though there's nothing to back that up. He still appeared as Superman Prime until next we saw him, and still won the fight. I can see it as villain braggadocio, or as a mounted loss of power, as easily as you see it as that, and those are both still more clearly portrayed on panel in the end. But that's your opinion, so I'll respect it.

I thought it was a cop-out myself.

???

The Bart Allen bit is a mental thing. As for the Guardian? That's how you saw that? lmao. He shot through a GL with heat vision and accidentally ****ed up a guardian. A Guardian had to SACRIFICE HIMSELF while he was getting overwhelmed by Prime, nowhere overpowering him at all, trying to wipe him from the universe and only sent him to a different universe, powered up. A guardian even touching the Antimonitor was dissolved on the spot - likely because of antimatter. But Prime flew through him, then tossed him. There's a gap even the Guardians and Prime, and Guardians aren't on the upper end of that totem pole.

Sure. Just understand that he was about as 'in that fight' as Booster Gold might have been. The gap between them was so huge that Prime was toying with him.

Oh was it?

Oh did they?

http://imageshack.us/f/443/hulk1sh0.jpg/

Heh.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Juntai
OK, though there's nothing to back that up. He still appeared as Superman Prime until next we saw him, and still won the fight.

I thought it was a cop-out myself.

??? I'm not sure where we disagree here. Originally posted by Juntai
The Bart Allen bit is a mental thing. As for the Guardian? That's how you saw that? lmao. He shot through a GL with heat vision and accidentally ****ed up a guardian. A Guardian had to SACRIFICE HIMSELF while he was getting overwhelmed by Prime, nowhere overpowering him at all, trying to wipe him from the universe and only sent him to a different universe, powered up. A guardian even touching the Antimonitor was dissolved on the spot - likely because of antimatter. But Prime flew through him, then tossed him. There's a gap even the Guardians and Prime, and Guardians aren't on the upper end of that totem pole.Ok, and 1 Bart Allen is more scary than 3 Speedsters which include Bart Allen, mental state notwithstanding. So reverse-ninja theory was still in effect. That Guardian atomized him, after physically restraining him. And Prime tanking the Anti-Monitor's anti-matter is a feat he shares with Sodam Yat (who did it twice). Originally posted by Juntai
Sure. Just understand that he was about as 'in that fight' as Booster Gold might have been. The gap between them was so huge that Prime was toying with him.Horse-sh1t. Let me invoke your easy dismissal of reverse-ninja theory, and point out that Sodam Yat was doing a hell of a lot better than the combined heroes who resorted to red sunlight and removing his power source to take Prime down. Everyone's throwing around the word, "downplaying," in my direction. Let's just say I'm pretty tired of Sodam Yat being downplayed. Originally posted by Juntai
Oh was it?

Oh did they?

http://imageshack.us/f/443/hulk1sh0.jpg/

Heh. Why you... uhuh

Got described as a footstep like a dozen times. And he was still holding back. ahah

Omega Vision

Reverse ninja ratio arguments aren't really cogent in a VS forum, ODG.

That's basically the bread and butter of comic fights so acting like the Reverse Ninja Ratio somehow tarnishes the impressiveness of one character beating down on others is kind of lame.

OneDumbG0

^ Fine.

Superman Prime >>>>>> combined DC heroes. Ion Sodam Yat >>> combined DC heroes. WWIII Black Adam >>>>>> combined DC heroes. WWIII Black Adam = Superman Prime.

Omega Vision

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Fine.

Ion Sodam Yat >>>> combined heroes. WWIII Black Adam = Superman Prime.
The heroes fighting Black Adam were trying to reason him most of the time. Not to mention Black Adam took a much worse beating than Prime did.

C'mon man you're better than this.

Juntai

Anyways, not much left to debate really.

Nice as always Onedumb.

<3

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Omega Vision
The heroes fighting Black Adam were trying to reason him most of the time. Not to mention Black Adam took a much worse beating than Prime did.

C'mon man you're better than this. Excuse me? WWIII Black Adam was tortured by the Science Squad, fought the entire world's military, fought the DC combined superheroes along with the Great Ten all solo. Superman Prime on the other hand fought the DC combined superheroes alongside the Sinestro Corps, and briefly started goading all of them to attack him before getting immediately beaten by a Guardian.

You want to focus on details, I can easily make an argument that WWIII Black Adam's rampage was equal to, if not greater than, Superman Primes' two rampages.

And this still doesn't bear on how Ion Sodam Yat gets no respect despite apparently doing better than a horde of DC superheroes who couldn't possibly have suffered reverse-ninja effect.

Omega Vision

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Excuse me? WWIII Black Adam was tortured by the Science Squad, fought the entire world's military, fought the DC combined superheroes along with the Great Ten all solo. Superman Prime on the other hand fought the DC combined superheroes alongside the Sinestro Corps, and briefly started goading all of them to attack him before getting immediately beaten by a Guardian.

You want to focus on details, I can easily make an argument that WWIII Black Adam's rampage was equal to, if not greater than, Superman Primes' two rampages.

And this still doesn't bear on how Ion Sodam Yat gets no respect despite apparently doing better than a horde of DC superheroes. Despite the on panel battle between the two showing the gap...

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc260/Superman-Prime_Respect/noteno2.jpg

He's A daxamite, powers like a Krytonian, plus the unlimited energy of ION. He's a living power battery!

But. .

not strong enough.

Not as strong as Prime..

He needs to be stronger...

He gets credit, it was meant to show that he was above the horde of heros. He did better than they did, plain and simple, and they didn't even engage him while the sun was up. They just got shrugged off and put on their "Oh shit" faces once the sun hit him and he wasn't running on empty. I said that way back, but it also once again exemplified exactly how much farther Prime was than even that due to how much more formidable Prime was than even ION.

And, if you wanted to twist things up, you surely could make a bunch of weird parallels to attempt to tell us Adam was more impressive, but 1) they were trying to reason with him most of that time, not actually just take him down and out. 2) many of the heavy hitters were not there. He was fighting people like Mr Terrific, Cyborg, etc. Prime was fighting far more heavy hitters, and doing better at it. Adam was going down, he was just racking up as much damage as he could while falling 3) The entire basis of the 52 and it's offshoot series' was that Superman, Wonderwoman and Batman weren't there. People even remarked during WW3 that they wouldn't be struggling, and it wouldn't be happening like that if they were.

OneDumbG0

^ Taking a closer look at the heroes that engaged Superman Prime and WWIII Black Adam respectively and it strengthens how close their rampages are, it doesn't widen that gap:Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Most of the heroes involved in either event were there at both times, Powergirl, Alan Scott, Jay Garrick, Teen Titans, JSA, etc. And while Superman, Supergirl, Wonder Woman and Wally weren't in World War III; you had Captain Marvel, Mary Marvel, Donna Troy, Guy Gardner, John Stewart, Plastic Man, Steel etc. AND none of them were distracted by Hank Henshaw or hundreds of Yellow Lanterns wreaking havoc. They were all completely focused on Black Adam. And what Sodam Yat needed was to stop holding back, a bit of an extra amp, more experience, and no lead poisoning. Originally posted by Omega Vision
Lol @ the military. Prime could do that in his sleep.

Sinestro Corps were basically fighting the GLC, Prime's fight was with the Earth heroes. And yes he did much better against them than BA did.No, he didn't. And you know that the YLC, Manhunters and Henshaw were engaging the DC heroes simultaneously. Originally posted by Omega Vision
Not to mention that BA was nearly soloed by Martian Manhunter at the start. Compare that to how Martian Manhunter was only able to briefly give Prime some trouble.

Lol the Guardian sacrificed himself to bfr Prime. That's not exactly 'beating' him. Two words: Bart Allen.

Oh, of course, Superman Prime getting KTFO and left for dead in a yellow sun-less place was exactly 'beating' Monarch though.

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Taking a closer look at the heroes that engaged Superman Prime and WWIII Black Adam respectively and it strengthens how close their rampages are, it doesn't widen that gap: And what Sodam Yat needed was to stop holding back, a bit of an extra amp, more experience, and no lead poisoning. No, he didn't. And you know that the YLC, Manhunters and Henshaw were engaging the DC heroes simultaneously. Two words: Bart Allen.

Oh, of course, Superman Prime getting KTFO and left for dead in a yellow sun-less place was exactly 'beating' Monarch though. You could only draw comparisons between the two if you count WW3 Adam vs de-powered Prime fighting through the nite, both going down slowly but surely. The difference was when the light hit him, he elevated past that level. The team was struggling with him like they did with Adam while he had nothing in the tank. Oh, and Prime was fighting far more top end sluggers than Adam was, and there weren't trying to talk Prime down and reason with him like they were Adam.

carver9

I thought they were trying to reason with Prime as well. Wasn't that the main reason powergirl missed with her heat vision when Prime was down (when she aimed it at his crotch).

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Juntai
You could only draw comparisons between the two if you count WW3 Adam vs de-powered Prime fighting through the nite, both going down slowly but surely. The difference was when the light him, he elevated past that level. The team was struggling with him like they did while he had nothing in the tank. Oh, and Prime was fighting far more top end sluggers than Adam was. Superman Prime's rampage in Sinestro Corps War rivaled his rampage in Infinite Crisis. Fact is, some of Superman Prime's best feats come when he is donning that suit. I don't see a distinction there that helps your case. WWIII Black Adam may have been dying, but he was never brought down to as low a level as Superman Prime was brought down to. Even then, Superman Prime rampaged non-stop for an hour or so. WWIII Black Adam rampaged non-stop for an entire week.

As for the "far more top end sluggers" comment, I wouldn't take a team consisting of Superman, Supergirl, Wonder Woman and Wally against a team made up of Captain Marvel, Mary Marvel, Donna Troy, Guy Gardner, John Stewart, Plastic Man, and Steel...

... when the first team is simultaneously and intermittently dealing with Henshaw, Manhunters and Sinestro Corps members waging an all-out war.

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman Prime's rampage in Sinestro Corps War rivaled his rampage in Infinite Crisis. Fact is, some of Superman Prime's best feats come when he is donning that suit. I don't see a distinction there that helps your case. WWIII Black Adam may have been dying, but he was never brought down to as low a level as Superman Prime was brought down to. Even then, Superman Prime rampaged non-stop for an hour or so. WWIII Black Adam rampaged non-stop for an entire week.

As for the "far more top end sluggers" comment, I wouldn't take a team consisting of Superman, Supergirl, Wonder Woman and Wally against a team made up of Captain Marvel, Mary Marvel, Donna Troy, Guy Gardner, John Stewart, Plastic Man, and Steel...

... when the first team is simultaneously and intermittently dealing with Henshaw, Manhunters and Sinestro Corps members waging an all-out war.

And yet, Sodam Yat was more impressive than the team's efforts combined, as they became nearly irrelevent once the sun hit him, which was comparable to Adams's feat and he was nothing next to Prime. All of which you've already conceeded to.

wink

Colossus-Big C

Hulk

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Juntai
And yet, Sodam Yat was more impressive than the team's efforts combined, as they became nearly irrelevent once the sun hit him, which was comparable to Adams's feat and he was nothing next to Prime. All of which you've already conceeded to.

wink

If you think you're being consistent here, you're not. For whatever reason, Superman Prime is the only character who cannot possibly have his feats be affected by reverse ninja-effect. Even though that would elevate Sodam Yat's performance well beyond the combined DC superheroes, but whatever, Sodam Yat sucks anyway somehow.

And of course, WWIII Black Adam definitely took on the combined DC heroes and was never brought down to the levels that Superman Prime was brought down to, even though he had dealt with the Science Squad torturing him, fought for a week non-stop (not an hour), and had no Sinestro Corps War raging around him to distract the combined DC superheroes, but whatever, he had reverse-ninja effect somehow.

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If you think you're being consistent here, you're not. For whatever reason, Superman Prime is the only character who cannot possibly have his feats be affected by reverse ninja-effect. Even though that would elevate Sodam Yat's performance well beyond the combined DC superheroes, but whatever, Sodam Yat sucks anyway somehow.

And of course, WWIII Black Adam definitely took on the combined DC heroes and was never brought down to the levels that Superman Prime was brought down to, even though he had dealt with the Science Squad torturing him, fought for a week non-stop (not an hour), and had no Sinestro Corps War raging around him to distract the combined DC superheroes, but whatever, he had reverse-ninja effect somehow. Not really, I never detracted from their accomplish besides pointing out that it's not as impressive as Prime and why I feel that way. I never threw around the reverse ninja effect excuse, and I never said Sodam sucked, but rather, that he was impressive doing what none of the team could seem to do against Prime, but noting that still left him as a minor inconvenience at most against Prime's power which is both evident in direct comparison and by his own admission that his heritage ring and ION abilities didn't grant him enough pure power to defeat Prime.

If you want to roundabout make a comparison of the instances and say Sodam by effect, was nearly as impressive as Adam by default, be my guest, I'll cross that road when I come to it. But that by no means put him near Prime, who was still leaps and bounds ahead of that as Sodam Yat was no match against him.

Despite all of what Adam did in that week, he didn't run into any real resistance until he encountered that JSA lineup at the end, I'm quite positive none of those regular civilians he was killing in those countries days prior to that mounted any real threat to him. And although we whipped ass, Adam went down to the group of the heros once he encountered them. Superboy Prime ended up slapping them around, defeated Sodam Yat, was beasting on the Lanterns too, even a couple of Guardians and punked the Anti-Monitor, and eventually had to be BFRed.

Though your double standard is actually amusing, when you'll give credit to Black Adam for running over regular humans for a week as if he were in a war for his life, and that's part of the reason he was eventually downed .. . but amped Prime hopping universe to universe killing the Earth's greatest heros over and over prior to running into Monarch had no effect on his limited absorbed power from the Guardian - and that Monarch's one solid blow he landed that seemed to have any true effect .. a nuke-level blast knocked the amp right out of him and constituted he not only was beating his ass, but was far more powerful .. despite losing the fight.

And somehow I'm the hater here?

Laughable bro. Really.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Juntai
Not really, I never detracted from their accomplish besides pointing out that it's not as impressive as Prime and why I feel that way. I never threw around the reverse ninja effect excuse, and I never said Sodam sucked, but rather, that he was impressive doing what none of the team could seem to do against Prime, but noting that still left him as a minor inconvenience at most against Prime's power which is both evident in direct comparison and by his own admission that his heritage ring and ION abilities didn't grant him enough pure power to defeat Prime.Let's just forget about the lead poisoning and the actual fight he put up both before and after. K. Originally posted by Juntai
If you want to roundabout make a comparison of the instances and say Sodam by effect, was nearly as impressive as Adam by default, be my guest, I'll cross that road when I come to it. But that by no means put him near Prime, who was still leaps and bounds ahead of that as Sodam Yat was no match against him. I'm not going to argue what you think is "near" or "two notches" below or whatever. Sodam Yat gave Prime a fight. An issue-long fight where Sodam was still drawing blood from Prime right before the end. He got lead poisoned and got outlasted. This was, by no means, a David and Goliath-sized gap comparable to the gap between Prime and Booster Gold. That's horsesh1t. Prime is far closer to Yat than he was to Monarch as Monarch was superior to a Guardian-amped Prime. Originally posted by Juntai
Despite all of what Adam did in that week, he didn't run into any real resistance until he encountered that JSA lineup at the end, I'm quite positive none of those regular civilians he was killing in those countries days prior to that mounted any real threat to him. And although we whipped ass, Adam went down to the group of the heros once he encountered them. Superboy Prime ended up slapping them around, defeated Sodam Yat, was beasting on the Lanterns too, even a couple of Guardians and punked the Anti-Monitor, and eventually had to be BFRed.Let's ignore the Science Squad, his first encounters with the Marvel family and the Teen Titans too. Let's also ignore that Superman Prime actually got taken down with his suit. Originally posted by Juntai
Though your double standard is actually amusing, when you'll give credit to Black Adam for running over regular humans for a week as if he were in a war for his life, and that's part of the reason he was eventually downed .. . but amped Prime hopping universe to universe killing the Earth's greatest heros over and over prior to running into Monarch had no effect on his limited absorbed power from the Guardian - and that Monarch's one solid blow he landed that seemed to have any true effect .. a nuke-level blast knocked the amp right out of him and constituted he not only was beating his ass, but was far more powerful .. despite losing the fight.

And somehow I'm the hater here?

Laughable bro. Really. Were there times when WWIII Black Adam was completely and utterly tortured and taken to his physical limits right from the get-go by the Science Squad or not? Were there times when he had half his face melted off or not? Was Black Adam described as a dying beast during World War III or not?

So you tell me when, before Prime met Monarch, he was portrayed as having been tortured, taken to his physical limits or described as dying. Nothing? So Prime pretty much effortlessly ran through those universes and met no real resistance until Monarch? So there was nothing to indicate he was sorely taxed, if at all, right before he met Monarch? Hmph. Don't try to act like he went through non-stop hell like WWIII Black Adam did such that by the time he met Monarch he must have used up his Guardian amp substantially. That's ridiculous and, in no way, indicated at all. What was obvious was that Prime was rip-roaring ready to go when he engaged Monarch, as powerful as ever, and lost his amp after having it beaten about of him by Monarch in a single fight that would have ended badly for Prime but for the kamikaze attack.

Omega Vision

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

So you tell me when, before Prime met Monarch, he was portrayed as having been tortured, taken to his physical limits or described as dying. Nothing? So Prime pretty much effortlessly ran through those universes and met no real resistance until Monarch? So there was nothing to indicate he was sorely taxed, if at all, right before he met Monarch? Hmph. Don't try to act like he went through non-stop hell like WWIII Black Adam did such that by the time he met Monarch he must have used up his Guardian amp substantially. That's ridiculous and, in no way, indicated at all. What was obvious was that Prime was rip-roaring ready to go when he engaged Monarch, as powerful as ever, and lost his amp after having it beaten about of him by Monarch in a single fight that would have ended badly for Prime but for the kamikaze attack.
This kind of destroys your other argument. Your argument that WW3 Black Adam is comparable at all with Prime.

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Kal-L wasn't at PC Kryptonian levels either when he returned in Infinite Crisis. Unless you want to invoke watered down PC Kryptonians. The fact is, you tried to compare and match Superman Prime's feats with the top level of PC Kryptonian feats, i.e., moving around a galaxy's worth of planets simultaneously. So, thanks for jumping into a conversation about PC Kryptonians, talking about the highest level of PC Kryptonian feats, then moving the goalposts to watered down PC Kryptonians.

As I've explained before, you want to give Superman Prime and that little sapling all due credit for surviving a universe buster point-blank, give Wonder Man and Vision all due credit for surviving a galaxy-buster point-blank.

I think you should adopt a better strategy here. Because all that moving the goalposts does is reveal how ineffectually weak your original positions and intentions were.

... y'know what? Go ahead and move the goalpposts some more. kinda

Oh now it's a fact? Show me please were I said that and don't forget, I said even by PC standards it was impressive. It's not a fact it's your interpretation. I never put it against the biggest feats, on the contrary. But I will come to this point later.

Kal-L is an old PC Kryptonian, nothign wrong about it.

I'm giving Vision and Wonderman the credit if they did so. No problem with it. Though Universe > Galaxy as you know. I knew 100% you would bring in the sappling shockish. It wasn't there point blank like SBP has been right? Nice, are you lowballing this feat, because it's PC-worthy and doesn't suits your point? Just askin...

Ok, you want to talk about strategy. Since you are not insulting (:up smile

, maybe we can also add some honesty to this discussion. So about my so called strategy... I have no strategy at all, I don't need one wink

.

What is your strategy?

You accuse me of things, and when I ask you to show me where I said this or that, as extreme as you put it in my mouth, you ignore it and accuse me of something new, which only exists in you mind and which I never stated as you wished I did. Examples:

I said SBP feats were impressive enough to be PCesque, you conclusion = I said his feats are >= the best PC feats? Honestly, wtf?

I even told you so but YOU insisted on the Solar system sneezing, like it has been the norm. Then I told you that such feats were the exception and not the norm. I even told you that the norm of the PC feats wasn't always that ridiculous, it was most often on SBP level and sometimes even below it, which is still ridiculous enough. Obviously your conclusion to this was that I hate Hulk, who wasn't even mentioned in my replys to you.
So you accused me being a Hulk hater because of this post... really, wtf? awebrow

You also accused me saying that current Superman is PC Kryptonian level, when all I did was guessing that he has become powerful enough to "keep up" with an "old" PC Kryptonian (Kal-L), which he did.

I quoted you then, from another Thread where you said following:
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
PC Superman got beat by far less than foes who could tow planets around. A lot.

Same with the Legion.

So... unless Mongul was chuckin planets at PC Superman or the Legion... feats? Please?
So in one post you adress Superman and his most impressive feats and then say yourself that he was defeated by "far less". One could conclude that you meant that the Superman who did those feats was defeated by far less, though maybe I didn't understand your point properly, you argued there against an DC char from the PC era against an Marvel char, and not an DC char from the PC era vs an DC char from this era. Your stance might shift, who knows.

So when I showed you, that according to YOU, they didn't always have those impressive feats, you concluded and accused me of using and talking about watered down PC Kryptonians BUT what have you been doing in that post of yours back then? smile

I even told you the years when I read those comics but... oh nevermind.

And again you claim that I SAID that SBP is greater then an PC Kryptonian, which I never did... I mean honestly ODG...

But I want share some of my limited (to yours I guess it is?) PC comic knowledge:

Even those "watered down" Kryptonians as you call them, that YOU brought into play because of dubious cicumstances, had impressive feats:

I remember an PC comic of those "watered down" times (to be exact a story from the year 1985) because it was a damn good one. Nice story and imo good art.

He sneezed a little bit in his FoS (Batman gave him the Advice so he might feel more human) and the huge door of his FoS broke out.
He flew to a distant solar system, not far away from where Krypton once was and states, "now that I'm in space where there is nothing I could destroy (there are only deserted Planets around, he means living beings etc) I can't "sneeze".
He flies to a moon, to punch it like a "Billiard Ball" into the hole (he means the sun btw). But he resists doing it, he holds his punch, he flies and sees the Wishing Wall of Kryptonian myth) there is he tricked and captured by brainiac who makes an Superbrainiac counterparty that destroys a planet with some billions of beings (SBrainy throws the Planet into the sun).
Superman is enraged, breaks free and before the dust from his fist reaches the ground he is lightyears away.
He fights the Superbrainiac (clone) and during their fight, Superman destroys an gas planet which results in an explosion that destroys every planet... even the sun of this solar system is extinguished.
The explosion catapults him away through the hyperspace, he is uncounscious for some time.

So in the year of the CoIE those watered down Kryptonians were still able to do such things. Not enough for you I guess? He was koed by the point-blank exploding Solar System, SBP took the Universeblast point blank, so it's not that far stretch to assume they aren't so far away. Even according to your stance of this former thread. Right?

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Kal-L when he returned wasn't PC levels either as he was evenly fighting Kal-El. So the strength to bust the dimensional barriers of their Paradise required only Superman-level strength. Not PC-Kryptonian strength.

Bottom-line, Superman Prime ain't sneezing away a solar system.

It sounds like you are stating facts and not making wild and "low" guesses... But maybe it's just me...

I like your bottom lines, though I don't know what it has to do with anything I said in my previous posts, as I never claimed something like this but meh.

Now let's look at what you claimed, shall we?

You claim:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Only planets. And they never said how many. I don't know why slightly shifting the orbits of certain planets ended up changing the center of the universe. It just did.

I asked you and I do it again, 'cause you never replied... Where does it say that he changed slightly the orbit? How much is slightly in you opinion? 1 inch? 1 mile? I lightyear? I'm ready to listen and learn. Elighten me. I'm very curious, it would help me a lot.

On a sidenote, when you look at the Universe, you see only stars for the most part, right?
So if someone would move just the planets, the center should stille be there where it was I think, 'cause the Stars are bigger, brighter and in the end more important. What defines the Center of the Universe more in you opinion, the Planets or the Stars or both? Do you think that SBP is capable of moving a Star?
Maybe it's just me, but it sounds more logical.
I can be wrong though, I'm not an comic expert like you, it seems.
I guess you know more PC comics then me, I still hope I could give you some insights to the feats of those watered down PC Kryptonians from 1985 wink

.

Now since we are chatting so nicely, politely and most of all honestly, let me tell you some things and ask you even some.

You said I said following things.

1. I was going on "hating Hulk" in my post?
I never did, we were talking about Prime.
2. I pretend Current Superman is a PC Kryptonian?
Never did, I said he was powerful enough to "keep up" with an "old" PC Kryptonian.
3. I said SBP was greater then an PC Kryptonian?
Never did it I pointed out (like you did once) that PC Kryptonians didn't onyl had those uber feats but lower feats as well, which were still impressive in their own right and that SBP feats would have been impressive even by PC standards.
4. I tried to compare and match Superman Prime's feats with the top level of PC Kryptonian feats?
Never did. I compared him to the PC Kryptonians on average, which is obvious if you read my posts.
5. You implied I don't give Wonder Man and Vision all due credit for surviving a galaxy-buster point-blank? I do, show me the feat, I'm cool with it. I'm even eager to see it.
6. Because all that moving the goalposts does is reveal how ineffectually weak your original positions and intentions were... oh the irony. laughing

Now I would ask you nicely and politely... because that's the way I am wink

. Please stop making false claims about my statements and don't put words in my mouth. Ok? Thank you hugesmile
If you think I'm not clear enough, ask me first, I'm willing to explain everything to you, ok?

BTW If I would have done this with your statements, you would be verbally jumping down my throat, seriously... you are lucky that it's me wink

.

1. Where does it say that he changed slightly the orbit? How much is slightly in you opinion? 1 inch? 1 mile? 1 lightyear?
2. What is the the least one has to accomplish (in your eyes) to be qualified in the PCesque feat catergory?
3. How comes you exclude the possiblity that he moved also stars in order to change the center of the Universe, while you are ready to accept that we don't know how he did it. It was never stated how he did it and how many planets he moved, you said, right?

Now my dear ODG. I'm ready to learn from you.
Don't be mad, show some dignity and help me understand the PC Krytonians better. Help me understand SBP and his feats better. Help me understand why I said things I actually never said???

You probably read more DC PC comics then me, so maybe you can explain all this to me. Don't let me down, I need your insight. I'm willing to learn. Answer my questions and don't ignore them, like you did till now. Maybe then I will understand you better and everything will be cool?

So long ODG, so long.

grinning

OneDumbG0

^ ... wtf?

As long as somewhere in your two walls o text, you're not supporting the notion that Superman Prime is a PC Kryptonian or comparable to a PC Kryptonian that sneezes solar systems away, I don't care about whatever else you're saying.

Nice attempt at moving the goalposts though. Originally posted by Omega Vision
This kind of destroys your other argument. Your argument that WW3 Black Adam is comparable at all with Prime. Try making sense.

JakeTheBank

PC Kryptonians don't get humbled by Kon-El. And multiple times at that.

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ ... wtf?

As long as somewhere in your two walls o text, you're not supporting the notion that Superman Prime is a PC Kryptonian or comparable to a PC Kryptonian that sneezes solar systems away, I don't care about whatever else you're saying.

Nice attempt at moving the goalposts though.

Actually I never supported that stance that he is at Solar sneezing level, but he is on PC level nonetheless. Nice dodging ODG. One has to admit, you are really good at running and closing your eyes if you were proven wrong smile

I expected this.

laughing

h1a8

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ ... wtf?

As long as somewhere in your two walls o text, you're not supporting the notion that Superman Prime is a PC Kryptonian or comparable to a PC Kryptonian that sneezes solar systems away, I don't care about whatever else you're saying.

Nice attempt at moving the goalposts though. Try making sense.

The goalpost wasn't ever sneezing solar systems away. So what's there to move?

OneDumbG0

^ Both of you can pay attention to what I established as my conclusion in the very first place when responding to tsscls: Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I don't have to prove a negative. Prove to me, through on-panel feats, that Superman Prime is stronger than a PC Kryptonian, y'know... the dudes that sneeze away solar systems. Because that's what you asserted and your conclusion is what I'm disagreeing with. Jumping into other people's conversations and trying to combat that idea with off-point responses, then pretending like you were never off-point, then pretending that I was always the one off-point, when this was established in the first place, is classic moving the goalposts.

So either you didn't pay attention in the first place or you're trying to quaneuver now. Pick one and cry more.

Batman-Prime

^Pick what you like, ignore where you are wrong. Forget that you made false claims about me (many not only one). coffee1

I said he is PC-Level and he is. He has the feats to back this up. He doesn't have to surprass the best feats to do so. As said, nice dodging ODG, as expected wink

iceman24567

Quaneuver lulz classic

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^Pick what you like, ignore where you are wrong. Forget that you made false claims about me (many not only one).

I said he is PC-Level and he is. He has the feats to back this up. He doesn't have to surprass the best feats to do so. As said, nice dodging ODG, as expected We all know PC level focuses on the highest feats, not the mundane feats. So you can argue your slippery definition of "PC" all you want. After all, how convenient is it, that only after getting your assertions busted up and down, do you reveal your highly expansive interpretation of "PC" to us? Fact is, you should have known what I meant by "PC" had you been paying attention to my very first posts.

And all your responses since then have been completely irrelevant. Y'know... except for the response where you pretended that Superman Prime accomplished a feat like moving a galaxy's worth of planets simultaneously. Whether you consciously moved the goalposts because you realized that Superman Prime actually has nothing close to the most well-known PC Kryptonian feats, or you were completely oblivious to what the term, "PC Kryptonian," actually entails here on KMC, you've done nothing but waste my time. So cry more.

Batman-Prime

^So now you say I pretended like he was moving a galaxy worth of Planets simultaneously?

Once you even argued that PC isn't only those uber feats laughing

You are truly hilarious, oh boy. crylaugh

And all I read now from you post is just worth an:
http://www7.pic-upload.de/17.08.11/2gyv72swr44a.png

Keep up the "good" work thumb up

Predictable... wink

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Moving a planet at superspeed does not approach the upper range of those feats above. Superman Prime would need to move a galaxy's worth of planets simultaneously to approach PC Superboy. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Changing the center of the Universe would require to move not only Planet at > FTL speed but Stars. Some Galaxies worth of Stars and Planets. Don't you think? Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And all your responses since then have been completely irrelevant. Y'know... except for the response where you pretended that Superman Prime accomplished a feat like moving a galaxy's worth of planets simultaneously. Pretty sure the only one who's mad is you, and your quaneuvers don't justify projecting that onto me. Be angry with yourself. You're a trainwreck at this point.

How do you act like your arguments are cogent and superior to my positions when, in the end, we both acknowledge that Superman Prime doesn't come close to the range of PC Kryptonian feats that they're best known for and I was specifically mentioning from the outset? The only way you're going to save face at this point is slamming your face onto your keyboard and walking away. Like I said, go back to hating on Hulk. You're better at that than this.

-Pr-

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
http://www7.pic-upload.de/17.08.11/2gyv72swr44a.png

-saves-

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Pretty sure the only one who's mad is you, and your quaneuvers don't justify projecting that onto me. Be angry with yourself. You're a trainwreck at this point.

How do you act like your arguments are cogent and superior to my positions when, in the end, we both acknowledge that Superman Prime doesn't come close to the range of PC Kryptonian feats that they're best known for and I was specifically mentioning from the outset? The only way you're going to save face at this point is slamming your face onto your keyboard and walking away. Like I said, go back to hating on Hulk. You're better at that than this.

crylaugh2

So tell me again. About SBP changing the center of the Universe by slightly changing the orbit of certain planets... laughing

Sorry.... but this is too funny. I know next time I make a mistake you will jump at me with blazing guns... but this is too funny... crylaugh

OneDumbG0

^ Thanagar's orbit was slightly changed by Superman Prime. It's the only planet-shift whose destination was revealed. Reread Infinite Crisis. I'm not going to speculate on whatever other unrevealed planets and unrevealed paths may have been caused by Prime. Also, nice deflection. Oh? What's that behind you? A trainwreck? Nasty. Pretend it never happened? K.

And Superman Prime has done nothing close to what PC Kryptonians used to do, amirite? High-five? After all, through your quaneuvers, you ended up proving that up as much as I did. Totally not ironic.

Sundipped

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What was obvious was that Prime was rip-roaring ready to go when he engaged Monarch, as powerful as ever, and lost his amp after having it beaten about of him by Monarch in a single fight that would have ended badly for Prime but for the kamikaze attack.

OneDumbGo I know you got your hands full right now but I could'nt help but laugh at this. laughing out loud

Monarch only mustered 2 succesful attacks vs. Prime. One energy projection blast with no concussive force whatsoever and a quantum nuke explosion that barley (if even) wiped out a city. How are those 2 attacks alone supposed to drain a Guardian amp?

OneDumbG0

^ Other than the fact that it did drain the Guardian amp?

Sundipped

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Other than the fact that it did drain the Guardian amp?

To each his own I guess erm

Alrighty then. Carry on.

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Other than the fact that it did drain the Guardian amp? lol.

Only in your own twisted interpretation.

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Thanagar's orbit was slightly changed by Superman Prime. It's the only planet-shift whose destination was revealed. Reread Infinite Crisis. I'm not going to speculate on whatever other unrevealed planets and unrevealed paths may have been caused by Prime. Also, nice deflection. Oh? What's that behind you? A trainwreck? Nasty. Pretend it never happened? K.

And Superman Prime has done nothing close to what PC Kryptonians used to do, amirite? High-five? After all, through your quaneuvers, you ended up proving that up as much as I did. Totally not ironic.

He has. Not a special case like you try it to make it seem but many other which is more then enough to prove he is on PC levels.
High five admitting that his feats were Pcesque. big grin

Also:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
PC Superman got beat by far less than foes who could tow planets around. A lot.

Same with the Legion.

So... unless Mongul was chuckin planets at PC Superman or the Legion... feats? Please?

crylaugh

Oh the irony! OneDodgingGo.. you are laughing

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
He has. Not a special case like you try it to make it seem but many other which is more then enough to prove he is on PC levels.
High five admitting that his feats were Pcesque. big grin

Also:

crylaugh

Oh the irony! OneDodgingGo.. you are laughing

Poster 1: Gray Hulk is like PC Superman.

Poster 2: You're an idiot. No he's not. He doesn't sneeze solar systems away.

Poster 1: PC Superman once leapt a tall building in one leap. So has Gray Hulk! See??? That's PCesque! Gray Hulk has PCesque feats!

Poster 2: You're an idiot.

^ Basically sums up your argument. Nice quaneuver. Poor attempt at moving the goalposts. Sad train-wreck. Dumb deflections that blow up in your face. You're on a roll now, son.Originally posted by Juntai
lol.

Only in your own twisted interpretation. Right. Guardian-amp Superman Prime totally exhausted his Guardian amp prior to the battle. I forgot to take into account that imaginary page explaining that.

Batman-Prime

^I think I won't dignify this with an answer.
hysterical2

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Right. Guardian-amp Superman Prime totally exhausted his Guardian amp prior to the battle. I forgot to take into account that imaginary page explaining that. Your entire debate is grounded in a random character claim that is unsupported in any effect on panel.

Meanwhile. . .You think punching between universes and killing unspecified amounts of the those universes greatest heros and/or destroying their planets didn't exhaust him at all, but running into a couple Teen Titans and killing a few million humans while all the big shots stood aside for political reasons left amped Black Adam wounded and dying before he ever tackled into the JSA team that took him down. And that's why he's more impressive than Prime, who was not only stronger than a team as impressive as Adam's, while weakened, but proved to be many notches higher than Sodam, who seemed to perform better than said team all at once.

It's all pretty funny to me, really, the way you bounce between tangents not making any real supporting points to your debate.

OneDumbG0

^ Let's see. I read 52 (unfortunately) and noticed that Guardian-amp Prime never had problems, never looked exhausted, never mentioned losing power. I read World War III and noticed that WWIII Black Adam was tortured from the get-go, wounded, dying, which was not only stated but shown on-panel. And somehow, I'm not reading the comics.

Of course I'm not! That imaginary page that had Guardian-amp Superman Prime really let loose in that one battle with whathisname and he mentioned a bunch of times that he better conserve his depleting energy. Right. Forgot to take that into account. My bads.Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^I think I won't dignify this with an answer.
hysterical2 Troll-mode activate!

Not enough that you admitted Superman Prime has nothing close to PC Kryptonian feats. You somehow feel the need to overcompensate with obnoxious smilies to deflect from the butt-hurt.

I haven't seen that before. kinda

Batman-Prime

^But he has, you just have to read. laughing out loud

-Pr-

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Troll-mode activate!

Not enough that you admitted Superman Prime has nothing close to PC Kryptonian feats. You somehow feel the need to overcompensate with obnoxious smilies to deflect from the butt-hurt.

I haven't seen that before. kinda

You don't have mirrors where you live? biscuits

Seriously though, guys, let's bring it down a notch. No more personal attacks.

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Let's see. I read 52 (unfortunately) and noticed that Guardian-amp Prime never had problems, never looked exhausted, never mentioned losing power. I read World War III and noticed that WWIII Black Adam was tortured from the get-go, wounded, dying, which was not only stated but shown on-panel. And somehow, I'm not reading the comics.

Of course I'm not! That imaginary page that had Guardian-amp Superman Prime really let loose in that one battle with whathisname and he mentioned a bunch of times that he better conserve his depleting energy. Right. Forgot to take that into account. My bads. Troll-mode activate! What do you mean activate? You've been trolling from the start.

Sarcasm isn't proving anything. Your entire debate is grounded in a random character claim that isn't supported on panel.

Guardian amped Prime overpowered and defeated Monarch, and he appeared amped until the next time we saw him later on after a universe-wide explosion point blank knocked it out of him.

Surely, it was a cheap win, making him rupture and explode, from a story standpoint and having seen that dozens of times already- but, if Monarch was so much more powerful than an amped Prime, that he literally beat the entire amp out of him . . . why couldn't he save himself from someone rapidly becoming many notches below him? Surely one good blast would have stopped the whole thing like the previous time that Prime was on top him whooping his ass?

Well, anyone here reading besides you gets the point, I'm sure. smile

Juntai

Also, back a page or two, you agreed that you felt Sodam Yat/ION appeared to be meant to be more impressive than the heros who attacked Prime in SCW, and then by direct comparison and even then admission of his own, Yat was vastly inferior to Prime in power. He point blank stated on panel that he needed more power if he were to ever contend with him again.

OneDumbG0

^ I invoked that Sodam Yat being more impressive than the combined DC superheroes as proof that reverse-ninja rule was in effect. Because you kept arguing that reverse-ninja rule was garbage. So as long as you keep thinking reverse-ninja rule doesn't apply to Prime, but it does apply to WWIII Black Adam and to Sodam Yat, I continue to see inherent contradictions in your positions. Originally posted by Juntai
What do you mean activate? You've been trolling from the start.

Sarcasm isn't proving anything. Your entire debate is grounded in a random character claim that isn't supported on panel. Right, while your entire debate is trying to ignore a character claim and project some kind of substantial drainage onto Guardian-amp Superman Prime to excuse the consequences of said character claim. But, whatever. Imaginary page was so clear on this point. My bads. Originally posted by Juntai
Guardian amped Prime overpowered and defeated Monarch, and he appeared amped until the next time we saw him later on after a universe-wide explosion point blank knocked it out of him.Superman Prime was on the losing end of that fight all the way through. Rupturing the containment suit was the only thing stopping him from getting beaten down. Further. An amped Superman Prime wasn't making the cut in a straight-up fight (made obvious by the fact that he had no more amp), a normal Superman Prime wouldn't. Originally posted by Juntai
Surely, it was a cheap win, making him rupture and explode, from a story standpoint and having seen that dozens of times already- but, if Monarch was so much more powerful than an amped Prime, that he literally beat the entire amp out of him . . . why couldn't he save himself from someone rapidly becoming many notches below him? Surely one good blast would have stopped the whole thing like the previous time that Prime was on top him whooping his ass? So what are we arguing about? Monarch suffered from the same deficiency that supervillains suffer when they don't sufficiently protect their self-destruct buttons in their bases. Obviously, Monarch was aware of the danger as an alternate GL ruptured his suit earlier. Maybe he thought explaining the dire consequences to Superman Prime would deter him from trying. I don't need to read between the lines though to see that absent rupturing his suit for a cheap win, Superman Prime wasn't getting anywhere in a straight-up fight. Monarch already beat the amp out of him in a straight-up fight. What else was there to do? Originally posted by Juntai
Well, anyone here reading besides you gets the point, I'm sure. smile

I was unaware of how many people thought Guardian-amped Superman Prime was superior to Monarch. Dumb as that is, you can appeal to the masses as much as you like.

Juntai

And then after that, you tried to compare Yat and Black Adam, and somehow got the idea that Prime and Yat, and Adam are all nearly equals, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Right, while your entire debate is trying to ignore a character claim and project some kind of substantial drainage onto Guardian-amp Superman Prime to excuse the consequences of said character claim. But, whatever. Imaginary page was so clear on this point. My bads. Superman Prime was on the losing end of that fight all the way through. Rupturing the containment suit was the only thing stopping him from getting beaten down. An amped Superman Prime wasn't making the cut ina straight-up fight, a normal Superman Prime wouldn't. So what are we arguing about? Monarch suffered from the same deficiency that supervillains suffer when they don't protect their self-destruct buttons in their bases. Obviously, Monarch was aware of the danger as an alternate GL ruptured his suit earlier. Maybe he thought explaining the dire consequences to Superman Prime would deter him from trying. I don't need to read between the lines though to see that absent rupturing his suit for a cheap win, Superman Prime wasn't getting anywhere in a straight-up fight. Monarch already beat the amp out of him in a straight-up fight. What else was there to do? I was unaware of how many people thought Guardian-amped Superman Prime was superior to Monarch. Dumb as that is, you can appeal to the masses as much as you like. I wasn't using it as a basis for a debate that he was depleted before ever finding Monarch, I was offering an alternate view and then ultimately using it to point out your Black Adam double-standard, that killing some humans and encountering 2 or 3 D List Teen Titans has Black Adam on the losing end before the team encountered him at the end WW3.

My standpoint from the start was no depletion was ever evident on panel, and that Superman Prime was winning that fight with Monarch, which he did, cheap ending aside. At multiple points in that fight he had Monarch on the ground at his mercy.

The only thing that on panel ever deleted his energy, was the blast that ended the universe, as he was no longer SuperMAN Prime the next time we saw him, but clearly was on panel through the course of the fight with Monarch.

Your entire debate is grounded in a random character claim that isn't supported with evidence.

Monarch liked to believe he was winning. He wasn't, and didn't.

Where is your debate again?

Juntai

Wait, we could always tangent off and talk about Black Adam some more! Because he's proving your points about Monarch and Yat, amirite?

OneDumbG0

^ Talk about how every detail you try to bring up to widen the gap between Superman Prime's rampages against the combined DC superheroes and WWIII Black Adam's rampage against the combined DC heroes only serves to narrow the gap? Fine by me.

Obviously you think WWIII Black Adam was helped out by reverse-ninja theory. But let me know when you're done figuring out yet whether reverse-ninja theory applies to Prime, and if it doesn't, whether you conclude that Sodam Yat must have been well above the combined DC superheroes as well. Because if you do, then Ion Sodam Yat was not as far off from Prime as Booster Gold would be.

Think about how you set yourself up here. Originally posted by Juntai
I wasn't using it as a basis for a debate that he was depleted before ever finding Monarch, I was offering an alternate view and then ultimately using it to point out your Black Adam double-standard, that killing some humans and encountering 2 or 3 D List Teen Titans has Black Adam on the losing end before the team encountered him at the end WW3. What double-standard? It would only be a double-standard if WWIII Black Adam looked fresh as ever before the final battle or if Guardian-amp Superman Prime were described as a thrashing, dying animal before he reached Monarch. Neither are true. Originally posted by Juntai
My standpoint from the start was no depletion was ever evident on panel, and that Superman Prime was winning that fight with Monarch, which he did, cheap ending aside. At multiple points in that fight he had Monarch on the ground at his mercy. Give me a break. Your view of the fight is so warped, it's not worth arguing. No depletion... except Monarch literally states it out loud and Superman Prime gets so angry about it because he can't deny it. The one time he knocked him down and mounted Monarch was when Monarch taught him a lesson by unleashing a portion of his true power:

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p06.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p08.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p16.jpg Originally posted by Juntai
The only thing that on panel ever deleted his energy, was the blast that ended the universe, as he was no longer SuperMAN Prime the next time we saw him, but clearly was on panel through the course of the fight with Monarch.

Your entire debate is grounded in a random character claim that isn't supported with evidence. Other than the fact that Monarch stated his Guardian-amp was gone and that he was shrinking. Right... but Monarch was talking about something else entirely.

Once again your entire debate is grounded in ignoring a character claim with imaginary theories that he must have been drained beforehand.

Batman-Prime

Ok on a serious note though.

Here is SBP strength. He moved the Planets across whole sectors like chess pieces.
http://www8.pic-upload.de/17.08.11/s5vodjykezv4.pnghttp://www8.pic-upload.de/17.08.11/avokohdijccf.png

Now one has to think about what is more impressive. Current Hulks feat or this.

1. SBP
2. Is spite.

IMHO.

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What double-standard? It would only be a double-standard if WWIII Black Adam looked fresh as ever before the final battle or if Guardian-amp Superman Prime were described as a thrashing, dying animal before he reached Monarch. Neither are true. Give me a break. Your view of the fight is so warped, it's not worth arguing. No depletion... except Monarch literally states it out loud and Superman Prime gets so angry about it because he can't deny it. The one time he knocked him down and mounted Monarch was when Monarch taught him a lesson by unleashing a portion of his true power:

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p06.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p08.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p16.jpg Other than the fact that Monarch stated his Guardian-amp was gone.

Once again your entire debate is grounded in ignoring a character claim with imaginary theories that he must have been drained beforehand. No, my debate was never that he was drained. Did you see page 5?

He wasn't mad at a claim that he was running out of power, he was mad because he called him a child, and then overwhelmed him. Something entire consistent with his character, he went into a tantrum anytime someone did that. Want to prove that too, just so I can prove you wrong yet again?

So, Monarch taught him a lesson the first time, and was overwhelmed the second time by a vastly weaker, depleted Superman Prime?

Right.

No, he was posturing, it's a random character claim unsupported on panel. Monarch was losing, and then lost. Like Yat, it was impressive in that he simply did as well as he did.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Juntai
No, my theory was never that he was drained.So Guardian-amp Superman Prime fought Monarch and at the climax of the battle, had lost it and was shrinking. Great. So what are we arguing about now? Originally posted by Juntai
He wasn't mad at a claim that he was running out of power, he was mad because he called him a child, and then overwhelmed him. Something entire consistent with his character, he went into a tantrum anytime someone did that. Want to prove that too, just so I can prove you wrong yet again?

So, Monarch taught him a lesson the first time, and was overwhelmed the second time by a vastly weaker, depleted Superman Prime?

Right. Rupturing his containment suit was cheap. Had he kept trying to trade blows, he would have lost. I don't care what you think, but it was clear from the fight that a Guardian-amped Prime was not gaining traction in a straight-up fight. He was beaten down to the extent where he expended his Guardian amp. I never said his containment suit couldn't be breached. An alternate GL did just that. I'm not going to pretend an unamped Superman Prime was superior to Monarch. Why? Because a Guardian-amped Superman Prime proved not to be.Originally posted by Juntai
No, he was posturing, it's a random character claim unsupported on panel. Of course. Monarch knew about the Guardian amp, noted his enlarged state. And then he just blatantly lied about it wearing off and him shrinking down just to throw him off. That totally makes sense.

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So Guardian-amp Superman Prime fought Monarch and at the climax of the battle, had lost it and was shrinking. Great. So what are we arguing about now? Rupturing his containment suit was cheap. Had he kept trying to trade blows, he would have lost. I don't care what you think, but it was clear from the fight that a Guardian-amped Prime was not gaining traction in a straight-up fight. He was beaten down to the extent where he expended his Guardian amp. I never said his containment suit couldn't be breached. An alternate GL did just that. I'm not going to pretend an unamped Superman Prime was superior to Monarch. Why? Because a Guardian-amped Superman Prime proved not to be. Of course. Monarch knew about the Guardian amp, noted his enlarged state. And then he just blatantly lied about it wearing off and him shrinking down just to throw him off. That totally makes sense. I'm still having a hard time believing that you've been debating for pages that a guy who got overwhelmed and pinned to the ground multiple times in a fight, and eventually got mounted and his suit ripped apart once Superman Prime started his tantrum from being called a child- and couldn't do ANYTHING to prevent it from happening, is vastly more powerful than the guy he blatantly lost to. lol.

Nice @ ignoring and disregarding the child remark because you knew you were absolutely wrong there though. wink

Galan007

I do agree that if Monarch would have been fighting to the same 'standard' in Countdown, as he did in Arena, he likely would have made short work of Prime (Guardian-amped, or not.).

After all, the most impressive offensive energy attack Monarch used vs. Prime was city-sized, and compared to "a nuke". Impressive, yes, but he was obviously just toying with Prime- as even that blast was still nothing in comparison to some of the blasts he'd previously generated in Arena- such as this continent-sized energy wave he released with a casual flick of his wrist:

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/7074/83677160.th.jpg http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/3230/44480811.th.jpg
...And that was when Monarch was supposedly at his weakest (ie. before he absorbed all the alternate CA's throughout the multiverse.)

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Juntai
I'm still having a hard time believing that you've been debating for pages that a guy who got overwhelmed and pinned to the ground multiple times in a fight, and eventually got mounted and his suit ripped apart once Superman Prime started his tantrum from being called a child- and couldn't do ANYTHING to prevent it from happening, is vastly more powerful than the guy he blatantly lost to. lol.

Nice @ ignoring and disregarding the child remark because you knew you were absolutely wrong there though. wink

What multiple times? He got pinned to the ground once. And he got knocked off with a huge blast for his insolence.

I'm completely flabbergasted at your interpretation of this fight. Where do you see here, Superman Prime compeltely and utterly dominating Monarch and pinning him to the ground and havign him at his mercy multiple times? Superman Prime was losing, ffs: Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Prime vs Monarch
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p02.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p03.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p04.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p06.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p07.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p08.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p16.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p17.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p18.jpg Rupturing his containment suit was his only chance. Same as that alternate GLs. He was stupid enough to take it. Then again, I can't call him stupid because he wasn't doing much in a straight up fight with an amp, what would he have done in a straight up fight without an amp, other than lose quicker?

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p06.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p08.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p16.jpg I mean, look at your scans were so quick to post.

Prime beating his ass, overwhelming him completely, then surprised by a nuclear level blast. Prime then comes right back, saying it hurt... the only other blast Monarch landed had little to no effect, he quite literally tanked it and was still sitting in the same spot, then he got called a child, and immediately overwhelmed him again, and just didn't give him a chance to counter again.

The fight was Prime's from the onset. Monarch was on the defensive the entire ordeal.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Juntai
I mean, look at your scans were so quick to post.

Prime beating his ass, overwhelming him completely, then surprised by a nuclear level blast. Prime then comes right back, saying it hurt... the only other blast Monarch landed had little to no effect, he quite literally tanked it and was still sitting in the same spot, then he got called a child, and immediately overwhelmed him again, and just didn't give him a chance to counter again.

The fight was Prime's from the onset. Monarch was on the defensive the entire ordeal. Yeah, I'm looking at them. And all I see is a red-headed step-child getting knocked down over and over again doing squat with his escalating attacks because Monarch is dishing out greater attacks to the point that he overwhelmed and exhausted his Guardian amp.

Monarch >>> Guardian-amped Superman Prime >>> normal Superman Prime.

And you've got your sh1t twisted backwards on this fight.

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

I'm completely flabbergasted at your interpretation of this fight. Where do you see here, Superman Prime compeltely and utterly dominating Monarch and pinning him to the ground and havign him at his mercy multiple times? Superman Prime was losing, ffs: Rupturing his containment suit was his only chance. Same as that alternate GLs. He was stupid enough to take it. Then again, I can't call him stupid because he wasn't doing much in a straight up fight with an amp, what would he have done in a straight up fight without an amp, other than lose quicker? Even with the other scans, Monarch was acting only defensively, getting overwhelmed the whole time. He was in a fight for survival, not a fight to win.

Losing? Where?

OneDumbG0

^ WTF?! You're making it sound like Monarch was struggling to survive like Sodam Yat was struggling to survive?!

WTF?! Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Prime vs Monarch
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p02.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p03.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p04.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p06.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p07.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p08.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p16.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p17.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p18.jpg OPEN YOUR EYES. Superman Prime was losing.

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yeah, I'm looking at them. And all I see is a red-headed step-child getting knocked down over and over again doing squat with his escalating attacks because Monarch is dishing out greater attacks to the point that he overwhelmed and exhausted his Guardian amp.

Monarch >>> Guardian-amped Superman Prime >>> normal Superman Prime.

And you've got your sh1t twisted backwards on this fight. Not even close, he's on the defensive the entire time. Why do you think he's firing blind, covering himself with one hand just firing crazy with the other? Why do you think he's firing off his back? Why do you think his blast simply got tanked, then he got overwhelmed and lost?

Monarch was not the powerhouse in this fight.

Guardian amped Prime > Monarch >>>>>SuperBOY Prime.

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ WTF?! You're making it sound like Monarch was struggling to survive like Sodam Yat was struggling to survive?!

WTF?! OPEN YOUR EYES. Superman Prime was losing. Not to the same extent, but he was on the backside of that fight the whole time -- minus one surprise blast off his back-- doing whatever he could to keep Prime off of him, and failing.

OneDumbG0

^ Holy phucking crap. Superman Prime was losing, punctuated by the fact that his Guardian-amp was completely exhausted. Superman Prime unintentionally copped out and took the trump card that an alternate GL took before in the same position, overpowered but could at least exploit a weakness.

This is some "Thanos stalemated Odin" levels right here. You run off with that interpretation now. I'm not dealing with this nonsense anymore.

Juntai

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Holy phucking crap. Superman Prime was losing, punctuated by the fact that his Guardian-amp was completely exhausted. Superman Prime unintentionally copped out and took the trump card that an alternate GL took before in the same position, overpowered but could at least exploit a weakness.

This is some "Thanos stalemated Odin" levels right here. You run off with that interpretation now. I'm not dealing with this nonsense anymore. Who was pressing forward the whole time, being the aggressor? Who repeatedly waded through or dodged attacks and began to overwhelm who? Who won?

Then, who was firing blind, fighting entirely defensively, fighting from his back, having all but of one his attack having little to no effect and ultimately lost?

Answer those questions, and you'll find who was winning the fight who was merely trying to survive the encounter, and even failing at that.

OneDumbG0

^ The red-headed stepchild who kept getting swatted off was the aggressor. Superman Prime going for the yoink! play, because that was all he could do at that point without a Guardian amp, doesn't get credit anymore than an alternate GL does.

Next time, figure out a way to read a fight without imagining that one fighter has the other at his mercy multiple times and having to conclude that another fighter's uncontradicted and highly specific statements weren't tantamount to outright lies.

I'm not engaging in "Thanos stalemated Odin" levels of garbage, and I'm not walking your hand through plain English. Superman Prime would never win a straight-up fight against Monarch. He himself proved as much when he couldn't do it as Guardian-amped Prime and got beaten back down to Superman Prime. Dude did what everyone does against Captain Atom, rupture his suit. Lame, and still not cause to tickle his balls over it.

psycho gundam

i always considered it a draw in terms of who was beating whom, though the guardian amp did ware off, though it was rendered irrelevant cause monarch's suit was ruptured; and just like the likelihood of prime's power waning to the brink of defeat, monarch's suit being torn open looks like a more imminent occurrence during a confrontation between the two that will end the fight, and that's what happened.

Juntai

Better yet, lets break it down page by page?
I'll skip the opening page, because it looked even, it looked like Prime might have punched, but it's unclear, as there'ss no sound effect and they're otherwise locked up..

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p04.jpg

After that, Monarch postures saying "I AM POWER" as he blasts Superman Prime, to little effect, as Superman is still right on him claiming "You're NOTHING" and smashed him with a giant. . something. . . Prime, then follows by laying into him with heat vision. Monarch tries to counter firing blind, which Prime avoids.

Next page;
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p05.jpg
momentary talking, then Prime tackles him and starts laying into him. Monarch lets off probably his only significant attack of the fight while trying to keep Superman Prime off of him who is quite literally laying into him.

next page:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p06.jpg
Explosion.

Next page;
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p07.jpg
character creations to explosion.

Next page;
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p08.jpg
Monarch talking to one of his underlings, posturing as if he's almighty and unchallengable. Prime reappears screaming, coming for him, Monarch whips around looking like WTF!?

next;
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/Countdown13p16.jpg
Monarch blows up a thrown piece of something, and hits Prime with a blast that has little to no effect as Prime is still right in his face. He claims that he's shrinking back into a boy, even though in that panel, he still looks exactly as he had at the beginning of the issue. He makes the mistake of calling Prime a child, which causes him to tantrum. He is then overwhelmed completely, doesn't even get a chance to act.

At what point was he clearly the superior by a large margin in this fight? When he surprised Prime with that explosion off of his back?