Mongul,Cyborg Superman,Sinestro Vs Superboy Prime

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Prep-Man
Standard Prime vs these 3. Who wins?

Mindset
SBP breaks Mongul's neck, rips Hanks "heart" out, and crushes Sinestro's rings and throws him into space.

vansonbee
Superboy Prime 10/10

-Pr-
Split imo.

Omega Vision
does Mongul have his rings?

Prep-Man
Everyone has the rings. Even CS.

Mindset
Oh, in that case.

Originally posted by Mindset
SBP breaks Mongul's neck, rips Hanks "heart" out, and crushes Sinestro's rings and throws him into space.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by vansonbee
Superboy Prime 10/10

thumb up

Bentley
Prime dominates. He starts collecting their jewelry to sell it in a comicbook store in Earth Prime.

quanchi112
Prime wins.

celeyhyga17
Prime gets wtf murdered...
http://imageshack.us/f/231/sbp4.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/40/sbp5.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/268/sbp6.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/577/sbp7.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/26/sbp8.jpg/

Zack Fair
Originally posted by Mindset
SBP breaks Mongul's neck, rips Hanks "heart" out, and crushes Sinestro's rings and throws him into space.

Prep-Man
Nice sig, cele. I wonder if WG's lasso is what primarily held Prime. Because he didn't even fight back at the end.

Cogito
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Nice sig, cele. I wonder if WG's lasso is what primarily held Prime. Because he didn't even fight back at the end.

I'd say unquestionably. Wouldn't have been there if it weren't meant to have an effect.

byrdgang21
Team wins majority but they work for it every time

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Nice sig, cele. I wonder if WG's lasso is what primarily held Prime. Because he didn't even fight back at the end.

thanks, but it's just a simple crop... =P

I'm callin this PIS

he should have murdered those "kids"

those were from the SPM respect thread courtesy of Galan

JakeTheBank
Lol.

This team beats the shit out of the most recent Prime.

Zack Fair
facepalm

vansonbee
Originally posted by vansonbee
Superboy Prime 10/10 lol@ myself stick out tongue
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
thanks, but it's just a simple crop... =P

I'm callin this PIS

he should have murdered those "kids"

those were from the SPM respect thread courtesy of Galan I guess the writers, tone down the murder and blood.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by vansonbee
lol@ myself stick out tongue
I guess the writers, tone down the murder and blood.


not really... the writers turned the table on SBP... the blood this time was gushing out of him like a fountain... that shiet was wack!!

who wrote this shiet?

Sundipped
Damn Prime. They did ya wrong this time. I got the feeling he's not going to stay in the source wall though.

celeyhvqa17 Why did you say he's murdered? He's not dead.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Sundipped
Damn Prime. They did ya wrong this time. I got the feeling he's not going to stay in the source wall though.

celeyhvqa17 Why did you say he's murdered? He's not dead.

They will relaunch everything so he will stay there forever ^^. Though if anyone can free himself without assitance even from the SW it's him.

DARTH POWER
Team wins.. Cyborg Superman with GL Rings is a challenge.

Sirius77
Prime. Although DC did job him out bad in this recent issue, it was wildly inconsistent with his other showings.

Somehow the teen titans were able to take him out when every Legionaire x 3 + superman and ion with 1000 years of experience were barely able to do it last time? Then there was the fact that they implied that kryptonite from their universe would do anything to Prime. It's like the writers wrote a different character-- I mean since when did he use strategies like he did in that issue? He just wrecks teams. No prep. He just does it, and he succeeds until some extenuating circumstance like a suicidal guardian, or a collective attack from three legions, or and exploding universe or something stops him... but this time he just got punched? Love or hate the character, but any comic reader should be able to see that none of that added up. Who ever wrote this didn't read any prior appearances Prime has made or just disregarded them completely. Regardless, he still trashes this team, unless one low, inconsistent showing is now equivalent to the retcon of an entire character.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by Sundipped
Damn Prime. They did ya wrong this time. I got the feeling he's not going to stay in the source wall though.

celeyhvqa17 Why did you say he's murdered? He's not dead.

figure of speech my friend...
it was a bloodletting.

Bentley
The issue was very badly written, but there is enough in there to suggest that Prime was weakened while fighting at night, if you consider that some of the titans are actually quite stable at mid herald, the showing is not as abysmal as some of the haters like to think.

When Prime is empowered by direct sunlight he's at his best, the showing is a bad one for him, but does not directly erase the character as we know it.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by Bentley
The issue was very badly written, but there is enough in there to suggest that Prime was weakened while fighting at night, if you consider that some of the titans are actually quite stable at mid herald, the showing is not as abysmal as some of the haters like to think.

When Prime is empowered by direct sunlight he's at his best, the showing is a bad one for him, but does not directly erase the character as we know it.


it was pretty close to abysmal for me. he went from pushing planets to getting owned by a substantially smaller group compared to what we usually see him go up against.

i do agree that it does not erase his character... he's still a team buster and easily above high herald. they should have used a more creative plot device to take him out. i mean he got ko'd fer cryin out loud. when do u ever see him get ko'd like that? they should have had Conner and Kara do a minor sundip or something before knocking SMP out.

Sirius77
Originally posted by Bentley
The issue was very badly written, but there is enough in there to suggest that Prime was weakened while fighting at night, if you consider that some of the titans are actually quite stable at mid herald, the showing is not as abysmal as some of the haters like to think.


That does make sense. Also, if the continuity is in line with the last issue he appeared in, then he might have been weakened after the black lantern fight as well. But even so, it was still awful writing, especially when looked at along side his showings in arcs like SC.

Prep-Man
How much was Cassie's Lasso a factor?

Galan007

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
Prime still stomps. And contrary to the beliefs in this thread, the Titans beating prime really wasn't THAT low of a showing. Phil said it best:

One thing about it though he had on the AM armor which is supposed to feed him solar energy. Guess this model was basically crap compared to the previous 1. He ran through em with the other model and still turned it up a notch when the sun came up. Oh well...........

Sirius77
Originally posted by Prep-Man
How much was Cassie's Lasso a factor?

It kept him there, but in all honesty, if the writing wasn't so awful he should have just slung her away like he did while weakened in SC. His entire showing in this storyline was wildly inconsistent with his other showings as I said before. If it were consistent, the battlefield should have been littered with dead and injured titans and teams of top tiers should have been called by this point, just like every other time.

Galan007
Originally posted by Sundipped
One thing about it though he had on the AM armor which is supposed to feed him solar energy. Guess this model was basically crap compared to the previous 1. He ran through em with the other model and still turned it up a notch when the sun came up. Oh well........... ...Except there was no solar energy to be gathered. Prime's appearances in TT took place entirely at night.

Gecko4lif
Prime is weakened by moonlight

Its canon now





















biscuits

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
...Except there was no solar energy to be gathered. Prime's appearances in TT took place entirely at night.

I thought both armors generated it on their own. The 1 in IC and SC. I assumed this 1 too.

Galan007
^ The armor just helps him gather solar energy faster. It doesn't produce the energy.

-Pr-
What the hell...

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Galan007
^ The armor just helps him gather solar energy faster. It doesn't produce the energy. The gathering part makes no sense. It probably doesn't produce energy but I was always under the impression it stored and fed him energy. Pretty sure the "feeding" him part was mentioned aloud at least once.Originally posted by Bentley
When Prime is empowered by direct sunlight he's at his best, the showing is a bad one for him, but does not directly erase the character as we know it. Reasonably sensible... if it weren't for the fact that some of Prime's best feats were performed when he wasn't under direct yellow sunlight.

Bentley
Did I mention the writing was crap? big grin

As mentioned before, being beaten down by the Titans isn't that far from getting almost defeated by Superman, Power Girl and Supergirl, which he did with an armor and without direct sunlight. After he touched the sunlight they just couldn't beat him anymore.

Ask yourself, is this showing really that different from that powerwise?

Prep-Man
yeah, that titans team was pretty stacked. not nearly a low showing as people make it out to be. good feat for cassies lasso.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Bentley
Did I mention the writing was crap? big grin

As mentioned before, being beaten down by the Titans isn't that far from getting almost defeated by Superman, Power Girl and Supergirl, which he did with an armor and without direct sunlight. After he touched the sunlight they just couldn't beat him anymore. Most of Prime's armor was destroyed by the time Superman, Power Girl and Supergirl engaged him. Superman Prime with his armor wasn't 100% in Sinestro Corps War, but in his own words, he was "nearly whole again," meaning that he isn't vastly inferior when he dons it and has to rely on it completely in the absence of direct sunlight.

His showings in the suit during the Infinite Crisis conclusion and throughout Legion of Three Worlds further confirm that. His SCW rampage rivaling (surpassing?) his early IC rampage in direct sunlight punctuates that. Originally posted by Bentley
Ask yourself, is this showing really that different from that powerwise? With Bart Allen and the rest of the Titans in a well-coordinated assault in the equation, no, the showing isn't really different from what was shown before. The Teen Titans showing makes sense, particularly where fewer ninjas superheroes end up being more effective via inverse ninja law -- which in itself was highlighted by how long a rookie, holding back, lead-poisoned Ion Sodam Yat lasted against Prime for an entire issue solo. I've said it before: I put Superman Prime a notch or two above a healthy Ion Sodam Yat. And all things considered equal, that Teen Titans group could defeat Ion that much easier.

So acting like it was the night that did it, or his suit must have been malfunctioning, etc. is wholly needless and unsupported at best, utterly nonsensical at worst.

Bentley
Well, it was night-time and Prime did have the armor, and Prime did fight better under direct sunlight than into the armor. You think one of those statements can be argued? Be my guest.

You can come up with the conclusion that the feat isn't really that much under the level in which Superboy Prime was operating during SC, you would be correct even if you don't factor that his really stupid feats from that storyline just came after sunlight.

I agree that the argument of any "weakness" it's unneeded though. Feel free to debunk that Prime isn't better under direct sunlight, that's really the only point in which we may disagree.

Parmaniac
Prime 10/10

Galan007
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The gathering part makes no sense. It probably doesn't produce energy but I was always under the impression it stored and fed him energy. The armor does store the energy -- but storing =/= producing.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Pretty sure the "feeding" him part was mentioned aloud at least once. The exact quote is: "It's an energy collector that feeds me yellow sunlight."

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman Prime with his armor wasn't 100% in Sinestro Corps War, but in his own words, he was "nearly whole again," meaning that he isn't vastly inferior when he dons it and has to rely on it completely in the absence of direct sunlight. You mean, in THAT particular circumstance, Prime wasn't too far below full power.

Just because he was near his max with the armor donned during SCW (after being exposed to direct sunlight, mind you) doesn't mean he was anywhere near his max with the armor donned in TT (especially when you consider that he had NO sun exposure during that timeframe.) His showings support that notion.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Bentley
Well, it was night-time and Prime did have the armor, and Prime did fight better under direct sunlight than into the armor. You think one of those statements can be argued? Be my guest. I saw little to no difference between Superman Prime's IC rampage under direct sunlight and his SCW rampage in night and donning his armor. His post-suit SCW rampage involved tangling with Ion, BFRing a dying Anti-Monitor, challenging everyone for a panel, and then being BFRed. Originally posted by Bentley
You can come up with the conclusion that the feat isn't really that much under the level in which Superboy Prime was operating during SC, you would be correct even if you don't factor that his really stupid feats from that storyline just came after sunlight. I don't recall any stupid feats other than taking an entire issue to defeat a rookie, holding back, lead-poisoned Ion Sodam Yat and being physically restrained by a jobber Guardian. Briefly taking on jobber GLs and YLs and a few Kryptonians before that for two panels? He repeatedly accomplished the equivalent during his other IC/SCW/Lo3W rampages with his armor. Flying through antimatter at superspeed? Sodam Yat took two direct antimatter blasts before even gaining the Ion power. Breaking that superhero dogpile? WWIII Black Adam was doing that repeatedly and Teth didn't have the "heroes-thinking-he's-nearly-depowered-now" advantage going for him. Originally posted by Bentley
I agree that the argument of any "weakness" it's unneeded though. Feel free to debunk that Prime isn't better under direct sunlight, that's really the only point in which we may disagree. He's not prone to depowerment, much less exhaustion, under direct sunlight. But that suit keeps him nearly as strong and powerful though and at least in IC/Lo3W, apparently just as strong. And going by just his feats he had many, if not most, of his best ones without direct sunlight.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Galan007
The armor does store the energy -- but storing =/= producing.

The exact quote is: "It's an energy collector that feeds me yellow sunlight."

You mean, in THAT particular circumstance, Prime wasn't too far below full power.Looks like we agree then. I was under the impression that you felt it's sole purpose was to gather existing yellow sunlight... at night. Originally posted by Galan007
Just because he was near his max with the armor donned during SCW (after being exposed to direct sunlight, mind you) doesn't mean he was anywhere near his max with the armor donned in TT (especially when you consider that he had NO sun exposure during that timeframe.) His showings support that notion. We never agreed that he was exposed to direct sunlight leading into SCW. Doesn't matter, this is a needless excuse. What I saw in Teen Titans simply mirrored IC/SCW/Lo3W both when he had his suit and when he had direct sunlight. Cassie lassoed and flung him around before Teen Titans. Kon-El went toe-to-toe and drew blood from him before Teen Titans. Bart Allen solo blitzed him and did the same before Teen Titans. Actually, the one thing I noticed was starkly different was how Superman Prime no-sold Red Star's attack in Teen Titans whereas he was yelping in pain in SCW.

Not once was it mentioned or even intimated that Superman Prime in Teen Titans #100 was substantially depowered. He prepped for the fight well in advance of #100 (he actually returned in #88). Beyond me reading the prior issues and the set-up for the fight again and discovering statements/clues that he was substantially depowered, I see no reason to project such a handicap onto the fight. It makes more sense to me to read his prior rampages under the light of inverse-ninja law. Always has.

Galan007
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Looks like we agree then. thumb up

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
We never agreed that he was exposed to direct sunlight leading into SCW. There's really no argument. Two separate comics clearly depict Prime totally illuminated by the sun, while he was on the moon. sneer

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What I saw in Teen Titans simply mirrored IC/SCW/Lo3W both when he had his suit and when he had direct sunlight. Cassie lassoed and flung him around before Teen Titans. Kon-El went toe-to-toe and drew blood from him before Teen Titans. Bart Allen solo blitzed him and did the same before Teen Titans. Actually, the one thing I noticed was starkly different was how Superman Prime no-sold Red Star's attack in Teen Titans whereas he was yelping in pain in SCW. Compare the team Prime more-or-less steamrolled through during his SCW Special:
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3420/prime4.jpg

To the team that beat him in TT:
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/5602/prime5.jpg

Imo, the former >>> the latter- which would subsequently reflect his very different levels of power.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Not once was it mentioned or even intimated that Superman Prime in Teen Titans #100 was substantially depowered. He prepped for the fight well in advance of #100 (he actually returned in #88). Beyond me reading the prior issues and the set-up for the fight again and discovering statements/clues that he was substantially depowered, I see no reason to project such a handicap onto the fight. It makes more sense to me to read his prior rampages under the light of inverse-ninja law. Always has. Prime didn't return until #98- and from issues 98-100, he wasn't exposed to any sunlight. That said, to assume he was anywhere near full power is quite faulty, imo.

Bentley
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
His post-suit SCW rampage involved tangling with Ion, BFRing a dying Anti-Monitor, challenging everyone for a panel, and then being BFRed. I don't recall any stupid feats other than taking an entire issue to defeat a rookie, holding back, lead-poisoned Ion Sodam Yat and being physically restrained by a jobber Guardian. Briefly taking on jobber GLs and YLs and a few Kryptonians before that for two panels?


Well, those are his more impressive feats and he pulled them in succession with no signs of slowing down. Calling things jobbing, emphasizing "lead poisoning" and "dying" isn't anymore simple nor elegant than just taking the best feats to face value after he touched the sunlight.

I see from where you're coming, as the separation between fighting under sunlight or not may seem artificial, but it was clearly depicted -through art- that it was a game changer when it happened.

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
Compare the team Prime more-or-less steamrolled through during his SCW Special:
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3420/prime4.jpg

To the team that beat him in TT:
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/5602/prime5.jpg

Imo, the former >>> the latter- which would subsequently reflect his very different levels of power.

I think that's the reason the writers chose to wrap him in the lasso - so he could be beaten (and thus the story could be finished) without diminishing his image so much.

I don't know that people are giving the lasso enough credit in the Titans win.

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
I think that's the reason the writers chose to wrap him in the lasso - so he could be beaten (and thus the story could be finished) without diminishing his image so much.

I don't know that people are giving the lasso enough credit in the Titans win. The lasso was crucial in the Titans' win- that much was clear. However, considering Prime has been ensnared in WG's lasso before, and it was only a single-panel inconvenience:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/148/prime6.jpg/

...I can't say that I understand how/why it was the 'game-changer' in TT..? /shrug

Bentley
Prime's inmunity against magic should deal with the lasso 131

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
The lasso was crucial in the Titans' win- that much was clear. However, considering Prime has been ensnared in WG's lasso before, and it was only a single-panel inconvenience:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/148/prime6.jpg/

...I can't say that I understand how/why it was the 'game-changer' in TT..? /shrug

Didn't know about that....

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Galan007
thumb up

There's really no argument. Two separate comics clearly depict Prime totally illuminated by the sun, while he was on the moon.The Moon was on the night-side of the Earth. Creeping halo =/= direct sunlight. I don't think it's an unfair distinction to make. After all, it definitely wasn't pitch-black dark when they all gathered on the bridge as you saw creeping sunlight over the horizon then too. Originally posted by Galan007
Compare the team Prime more-or-less steamrolled through during his SCW Special:
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3420/prime4.jpg

To the team that beat him in TT:
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/5602/prime5.jpg

Imo, the former >>> the latter- which would subsequently reflect his very different levels of power.Of course it is. Which illustrates inverse-ninja law. And it's not just the Teen Titans showing that punctuates that. His showings throughout SCW do. Suited, nearly-whole, Superman Prime slowly but surely lost an issue long fight against that entire SCW superhero line-up. A rookie, holding back, lead-poisoned Ion Sodam Yat slowly but surely lost an issue long fight against a whole Superman Prime.

All things considered equal, how would a healthy Ion Sodam Yat compare to that superhero lineup? Well if you just take both those showings at face value, completely ignoring inverse-ninja law... then apparently you believe Ion Sodam Yat is comparable to that entire SCW superhero lineup. Which is bullsh1t. 1/10th of that lineup could take on Ion Sodam Yat handily.

Is there a convenient resolution? Yes. Don't take Superman Prime's team-busting rampages in IC/SCW/Lo3W completely and utterly at face value. Is this approach foreign to us? No, considering how most look at World War Hulk, World War III, etc. Would most everyone rather take Superman Prime's rampages in IC/SCW/Lo3W at face value anyway? Somehow, yes. Wouldn't that approach reverse-inflate Sodam Yat and WWIII Black Adam assuming you were consistent? Yes, who cares though. Originally posted by Galan007
Prime didn't return until #98- and from issues 98-100, he wasn't exposed to any sunlight. That said, to assume he was anywhere near full power is quite faulty, imo. He returned in a flashback to events that took place in #88, if I'm not mistaken. To assume, without any actual evidence that he was substantially depowered, when his suit has always made him whole or nearly whole, is ridiculous, imo.

Galan007
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The Moon was on the night-side of the Earth. Creeping halo =/= direct sunlight.

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/8886/prime1.th.jpg

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/9242/prime2u.th.jpg

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2390/prime3h.th.jpg

Direct sunlight. It's as blatant as it gets... Unless you'd like to ignore the reflection of the sun gleaming in Prime's eyes, accompanied by full body illumination/shadow-casting seen in the scans. /shrug

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Of course it is. Which illustrates inverse-ninja law. And it's not just the Teen Titans showing that punctuates that. His showings throughout SCW do. Suited, nearly-whole, Superman Prime slowly but surely lost an issue long fight against that entire SCW superhero line-up. A rookie, holding back, lead-poisoned Ion Sodam Yat slowly but surely lost an issue long fight against a whole Superman Prime. This, again, is assuming that Prime was at "full power" vs. Ion- which likely wasn't the case (imo.) Either way, there's no need to get into THIS part of things again- I think we beat that horse to death.

But getting back to what I was saying: The team Prime steamrolled through during SCW (essentially the entire JLA/JSA line-ups + more) was vastly superior to the team that beat Prime with a fair amount of ease in TT. We are both in agreement there, it seems. That said, if he wasn't even at full power when he smacked around the aforementioned team-up in SCW, then logic should tell you how depowered he was in TT.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He returned in a flashback to events that took place in #88, if I'm not mistaken. You are mistaken.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
To assume, without any actual evidence that he was substantially depowered, when his suit has always made him whole or nearly whole, is ridiculous, imo. It takes more than just the suit to make Prime 'nearly whole'. He must also be exposed to direct yellow sunlight- something he never came in contact with during TT.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Galan007
Direct sunlight. It's as blatant as it gets... Unless you'd like to ignore the reflection of the sun gleaming in Prime's eyes, accompanied by full body illumination/shadow-casting seen in the scans. /shrug Again, I find there to be a distinction between creeping sunlight halo peering over the horizon and direct sunlight. As illustrated by the fact that there was also a creeping sunrise halo over Coast City that was meaningless to Prime. I understand where you're coming from. Prime getting his dramatic boost from a single ray of direct sunshine tends against it sharply. But yeah, we've both said our piece on this issue before. Originally posted by Galan007
This, again, is assuming that Prime was at "full power" vs. Ion- which likely wasn't the case (imo.) Either way, there's no need to get into THIS part of things again- I think we beat that horse to death.

But getting back to what I was saying: The team Prime steamrolled through during SCW (essentially the entire JLA/JSA line-ups + more) was vastly superior to the team that beat Prime with a fair amount of ease in TT. We are both in agreement there, it seems. That said, if he wasn't even at full power when he smacked around the aforementioned team-up in SCW, then logic should tell you how depowered he was in TT.Logic informs me that what always looked like inverse-ninja law to me, clearly was inverse-ninja law. Otherwise, a healthy Sodam Yat is comparable to that SCW superhero lineup. Otherwise, WWIII Black Adam is a "PC Kryptnonian." Originally posted by Galan007
You are mistaken.

It takes more than just the suit to make Prime 'nearly whole'. He must also be exposed to direct yellow sunlight- something he never came in contact with during TT. Between our disagreements on when he appears whole or nearly whole and when he benefits from sunlight, we're never agreeing on this. To me, the most important points are that your excuses come with three glaring caveats: (i) for whatever reason, bathing in direct sunlight for hours with his suit didn't make him whole so his sunlight absorption is hella slow, but he recveived a dramatic boost to his power from a single ray of sunshine touching his hand; (ii) Superman Prime is especially immune to inverse-ninja law but for some reason Ion Sodam Yat doesn't benefit from it within the same story-arc; (iii) in Teen Titans, he completely no-sold Red Star's attack -- who had him screaming in pain in SCW -- but whatever.

And that's wholly separate and apart from the glaring absence of any intimation/indication that Superman Prime was substantially depowered in Teen Titans. Originally posted by Bentley
Well, those are his more impressive feats and he pulled them in succession with no signs of slowing down. Calling things jobbing, emphasizing "lead poisoning" and "dying" isn't anymore simple nor elegant than just taking the best feats to face value after he touched the sunlight.

I see from where you're coming, as the separation between fighting under sunlight or not may seem artificial, but it was clearly depicted -through art- that it was a game changer when it happened. His best feats at face value are still when he isn't under direct sunlight. So I don't see how comparing feats is doing anything other than advancing my position.

Of course it was a game-changer when it happened. A dramatic one. Because in one moment, he was depleted, stripped of his armor and approaching utter depowerment, and in the next, he was restored by the sunlight.

Galan007
Your 'inverse-ninja law' = little more than a cop-out you've come up with to dodge the blatant facts I presented.

You bore me. That is all. sneer

Zack Fair
Originally posted by Cogito
I think that's the reason the writers chose to wrap him in the lasso - so he could be beaten (and thus the story could be finished) without diminishing his image so much.

I don't know that people are giving the lasso enough credit in the Titans win.

I agree. Thing is he might have been able to break it and strangle Cassie with her own lasso if it wasn't the final issue. uhuh

Juntai
lol.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Galan007
Your 'inverse-ninja law' = little more than a cop-out you've come up with to dodge the blatant facts I presented. Inverse ninja-law seems to be less of a cop-out than some off-panel ambiguous depowerment. And if it's such a cop-out that it shouldn't be considered, then I don't understand why WWIII Black Adam isn't considered a peer to Superman Prime since his rampage rivaled any wrought by Superman Prime (sunlight or suited) and why Ion Sodam Yat gets no credit for lasting an entire issue against a Superman Prime under direct sunlight.

I'd have less of an issue with these excuses circumstances that ya'll are trying to convince me of, but for that. I can even overlook Prime no-selling Red Star's attack or Prime having trouble more than once with Cassie/Kon-El/Bart, both individually and collectively before Teen Titans #100. Originally posted by Galan007
You bore me. That is all. sneer I'll show you boring... uhuh

Bentley
While the Inverse Ninja Law can be discussed in theory, as it seemingly works, it makes for very weak arguments because it hinders a certain kind of characters -event characters, team-book characters-.

It seems like a thing to gauge spot-light entities such as Doctor Doom, Thor, Loki, Hulk or whatever character's respect thread you're building evil face

No, but seriously, I can see the reasoning, but I'm not sure it can be brought in a debate as a reliable tool to measure powerlevels. There is an objective reality about lesser showings when characters are many: the number of panels in the fight. The intention of those combats is still to make the character impressive, so we deciding "is not that impressive" is against the spirit in which the comic was written. And its not as if individual vs battles didn't brought similar problems, they are just harder to define.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Bentley
While the Inverse Ninja Law can be discussed in theory, as it seemingly works, it makes for very weak arguments because it hinders a certain kind of characters -event characters, team-book characters-.

It seems like a thing to gauge spot-light entities such as Doctor Doom, Thor, Loki, Hulk or whatever character's respect thread you're building evil face

No, but seriously, I can see the reasoning, but I'm not sure it can be brought in a debate as a reliable tool to measure powerlevels. There is an objective reality about lesser showings when characters are many: the number of panels in the fight. The intention of those combats is still to make the character impressive, so we deciding "is not that impressive" is against the spirit in which the comic was written. And its not as if individual vs battles didn't brought similar problems, they are just harder to define. So why da phuck does WWIII Black Adam get no respect? Why da phuck does Ion Sodam Yat get no respect for being the one superhero who lasted longer than anybody barring Monarch, against Prime solo? Let's be clear about this, I use inverse-ninja law to account for eyebrow-raising discrepancies. What are these discrepancies? For Superman Prime, and related Superman Prme discussions, there were a bunch:

1) Kon-El and Bart Allen started fending him off pretty decently in their respective solo efforts in the last two issues of Infinite Crisis. Drawing blood, fighting hard, taking more than several of his shots... what? Hmph. Excuses are made, clearly he wrecked teams of heroes including them before, so it's an aberration. Weird.

2) World War III comes out after Infinite Crisis. Teth goes on a serious rampage easily rivaling Prime's during Infinite Crisis out of nowhere (seemingly nowhere since 52 was not popular). Comparisons are quickly made. Somehow, they're quickly dismissed. The superheroes are immediately characterized as far inferior, or stupid for taking him on one at a time and not piling on effectively... inverse ninja-law... wait, what? Weirder.

3) Sinestro Corps War breaks out and takes comicdom by storm. Prime makes a dramatic return. He rampages again through the superheroes. He beats Ion Sodam Yat after an issue long fight. Prime's showings are universally praised... even though we just saw it rivaled by Teth. Some comparisons are attempted again and even more quickly dismissed the second time around... wha-wha-what? Weirderer.

4) Ion Sodam Yat? He starts revealing his true power levels after Sinestro Corps War. In terms of 1v1, he was the best match-up against Superman Prime so far, bar none. Nobody lasted that long solo... nobody... not even close. Then he immediately starts getting manhandled by Mongul Jr. along with all the other GLs. So Sodam Yat suddenly sucks. He rates barely higher than Hal or Kyle at this point. So... what does that say about Superman Prime who took an entire issue to down him? Shut up. People are so disappointed that Ion Sodam Yat isn't even approaching Ion II Kyle levels much less classic Ion Kyle levels, he garners nothing but derision. Suddenly, it's like Ion Sodam Yat got his butt kicked by Prime like everyone else. The guy who still lasted longer than anybody against Prime to that point. Yea, but- cmon, what? Really weird.

5) Countdown blows chunks. But we do get Legion of 3 Worlds. Prime rampages again. Superman can't take him. Out of nowhere, Bart is resurrected. Prime poops his pants. Bart handles him, Prime runs, just like he did in Infinite Crisis. That's not even the end, Kon-El comes back too. Prime poops his pants twice over. To add insult to injury, Prime's even having trouble with Kon-El now. Insane symmetry with Infinite Crisis. Whatever, more excuses are made. Weird is spelled w.e.i.r.d.



Fast forward to now and he gets beat up by... of all people, the Teen Titans. Good gravy. People are up in arms. Somehow, being beaten up by Bart Allen + Kon-El + fewer superheroes is, like hands down, just utterly contradictory to everything we've ever seen Prime do beforehand. ..................... seriously, now? Did ya'll even read IC/SCW/Lo3W? Cmon, man.

At this point, the denial is staggering. It's palpable. It's epic. Somehow, nothing will give despite the glaring discrepancies. Oh, explanations are given, a huge hodge-podge of convenient and unsupported excuses essentially boiling down to... oh well at this specific time, he was actually really depowered, or his opponent was really overpowered, or, whatever it's PIS, shut up! But yeah, it's transparent what's going on. The one global explanation that would readily solve it all... Prime benefiting from inverse-ninja law... that just can't be it. Never. Prime's special. Superman, Konvikt, WWH and WWIII Black Adam can have their showings scrutinized- but OH NO, DON'T YOU DARE turn that light onto Prime! Don't even. Kill you to death, yo.

Bentley
I don't think I've ever posted on one of those double standards you've mentioned, but hey, it seems you got them pinned down ermm

I agree to you in every respect that those discrepancies shouldn't be allowed, and that Mongul is awesome. Arguably this also comes from the very fact I mentioned, that one vs one matches also have their own rules and sequences -like Thing or Colossus putting on a fight against Hulk, and then someone wanting to make an argument that one or the other is stronger because of how they last against Hulk, or Gladiator, or another random opponent-. It makes it seem as if Prime's powerlevel was all around, the limited number of showings won't help either.

Omega Vision
Inverse Ninja law isn't a real argument ODG.

Drop it.

Parmaniac
Originally posted by Galan007
Compare the team Prime more-or-less steamrolled through during his SCW Special:
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3420/prime4.jpg
That's how I wanna see Prime, wrecking Teams (and Teens sneer)

kevdude
Well he most def does wreck teams but he wasn't wrecking that team to say.... Heck he was trying to conserve energy the whole time, in order to make it till dawn, and he was trying to stay away from them. Here he even talks about it and when the sun rises he won't need the armor anymore, acting as though he has never been powered by it at all up to that point in the story!

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/220/superboyprime001.jpg/

Prime was slowed down by Rita is the reason they caught up to him. Its very silly to believe he was sitting (for 3 issues) on the moon powering up by the sunlights solar radiation then still needed it during all this, and is running away from this team, especially when the team caught up to him he didn't last long at all!

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/35/superboyprime1001.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/superboyprime2001.jpg/

At least half of this comic is a backdrop to Superboy Primes history, so its hardly like he was fighting during the whole comic, like what Sodam Yat did.

Bentley
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Inverse Ninja law isn't a real argument ODG.

Drop it.


There is also this ermmha

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