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okay i have a girlfriend that i love, a lot. we get along, are nice, a great couple. shes a christian and im an atheist. religion has been brought up before, and even though i took it as lightly as i can, she was still getting uncomfortable with the topic.

the other day, we were talking about our future and having kids, and even though thats a while away, there is no harm and getting your opinion about this now. how would you raise your kids if you were in my situation? I strongly dislike the idea of my kids going to church.... at all. any religion that preaches against gay people, has a malevolent, selfish god, and practically says that every human emotion is a sin, is something i would not want my kids going to. I dont even like the idea of my kids assuming there is heaven and a god and not taking the time to consider if any of that were true or not.

And she isnt hardcore christian, but she claims herself as one, and definitely does believe in god.

I have a feeling she will say something like "it will teach them good morals" or something like that, but i could easily teach them good morals... i dont need church, or any religion to teach them good morals for that matter.

should i back up my ideals and not have them go to church? am i being selfish? words on this matter? lol

It's a tough decision. If you can convince your girlfriend that would be the best from my, also atheist, POV. But if she really wants them to go to church that's not necessarily a huge deal, you could go along and see for yourself whether the preacher seems like an alright person, and there's no denying that there are some moral ideals in Christianity which are worthwhile. As long as she's okay with you explaining your opinions.

I would make sure though that no hateful things are preached in the church they would be attending and if they are exposed to it that you explain to them the value of being open minded and non-judgmental.

I personally have been brought up as a Catholic, my mother, I suppose, is a believer, while my father too is an atheist. I don't hate my past with the church, and I don't recall ever being particularly negatively indoctrinated, but I don't know whether that is the exception or the rule. So either way, I think you should try to be involved with your children's life and teach them your values and ideals.

As long as they grow up to be decent people, I don't think it matters whether they consider themselves Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist or whatever.

You should talk to her and make sure neither is being judgmental. That will tell you if your problem is fixable or not. Posting on an internet forum, while great for soliciting advice, isn't going to solve anything. Because a phrase like "I have a feeling she'll say something like..." means that you haven't actually hashed it out yet. There's only so much you can plan for when you're speculating.

...

Personally, and this isn't advice, if I were in that position I'd push for not "raising" them anything. If she insisted on taking them to church, which is actively teaching them Christianity, I'd actively teach them atheism. Balance, rather than indoctrination.

When I was younger, my parents gave me a book on different world religions, as well as a bible and other holy texts I was interested in. This let me make up my own mind. I think this is the only fair way to do things.

Dont stop them from going to church, if you dont want them to believe in God there's a great chance (its the case for 90% of religious people anyway) that it will be nothing but a family tradition for them, which is a great thing for bonding. Most people that are biased against gays arent biased because of their religious beliefes. Them believing in God shouldnt cause any trouble as long as you teach them to be tolerant of other people. And while you may not believe in heaven/hell I dont see a reason to try and convince your kids that it doesnt exist, dont do that. Like Digi said, just familiarise them with both points of view and let them make up their own mind as they're older.

Originally posted by SamZED
Dont stop them from going to church, if you dont want them to believe in God there's a great chance (its the case for 90% of religious people anyway) that it will be nothing but a family tradition for them, which is a great thing for bonding. Most people that are biased against gays arent biased because of their religious beliefes. Them believing in God shouldnt cause any trouble as long as you teach them to be tolerant of other people. And while you may not believe in heaven/hell I dont see a reason to try and convince your kids that it doesnt exist, dont do that. Like Digi said, just familiarise them with both points of view and let them make up their own mind as they're older.
Preposterous. No i'm sorry but there is no reason why he should allow preachers to convince his kid what to think, while somehow it would be "bad" to try and convince them of his own views. You absolutely should not relinquish your authority to raise your kids to some minister. The fact that you think its fine for people to tell his kids to be religious, but think telling them not to be religious would be bad, betrays your bias and double standard on this issue.

Secondly, honesty is a core value in any functional family. So I think if he's an atheist, pretending he doesn't believe that would be highly dishonest. If his kid asks him what he believes he should give a totally honest answer and explain it as best he can.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Preposterous. No i'm sorry but there is no reason why he should allow preachers to convince his kid what to think, while somehow it would be "bad" to try and convince them of his own views. You absolutely should not relinquish your authority to raise your kids to some minister. The fact that you think its fine for people to tell his kids to be religious, but think telling them not to be religious would be bad, betrays your bias and double standard on this issue.

Secondly, honesty is a core value in any functional family. So I think if he's an atheist, pretending he doesn't believe that would be highly dishonest. If his kid asks him what he believes he should give a totally honest answer and explain it as best he can. Who said anything about pretending to believe? And "relinquish"? Since when do they "raise" kids in churches? Preachers do exactly that - preach on religion. And learning about it isnt a bad thing and learning is exactly what they're going to do there as long as you (the father) take time to explain that its just a point of view some people have and that knowledge will help them get along if they're going to live/study among religious people. If you're a good parent and always try to educate your kids then one hour per week spent in a church wont play the crucial role in your kids upbringing. If it does, well.. it means you're a bad parent and never bother to teach your kids yourself. Simply learning about religion is one thing.. but teaching little kids that "religion/God/hell/heaven is bullsh!t" is another. You dont believe in God, tell them about it, but let them spend time with religious people as well, make sure you explain to them that its just that - a belief. They'll figure out what they want themselvs. That definitely beats forcing them to become atheists.

Originally posted by SamZED
Who said anything about pretending to believe? And "relinquish"? Since when do they "raise" kids in churches? Preachers do exactly that - preach on religion. And learning about it isnt a bad thing and learning is exactly what they're going to do there as long as you (the father) take time to explain that its just a point of view some people have and that knowledge will help them get along if they're going to live/study among religious people. If you're a good parent and always try to educate your kids then one hour per week spent in a church wont play the crucial role in your kids upbringing. If it does, well.. it means you're a bad parent and never bother to teach your kids yourself. Simply learning about religion is one thing.. but teaching little kids that "religion/God/hell/heaven is bullsh!t" is another. You dont believe in God, tell them about it, but let them spend time with religious people as well, make sure you explain to them that its just that - a belief. They'll figure out what they want themselvs. That definitely beats forcing them to become atheists.
Yeah, because a conservative christian preacher will be saying his religion is a "belief". That preacher will be telling him every session that atheism is bullshit. You think he can just take those shots without responding in kind? Maybe, but that would be exactly what I said: relinquishing his parental authority to the church.

One hour of certainty > 100 hours of wishy washy talk.

EDIT: That was probably not the best way of explaining what I meant. What i'm saying, is, the christian position is that atheism is totally wrong, a fraud. And that's the view he'll get when he's preached to. So it baffles me that you think its OK for him to let his kid be subjected to that, which is obviously not a position of "point of view", but you think that it would be wrong for the dad to present his own view with certainty. This seems to me to be saying, the preacher should have more authority than the kids own parents.

Isn't one of the main things a lot of atheists dislike about religion is that it supposedly "indoctrinates" people at a young age? Wouldn't you be doing the same thing by forcing your atheistic views on them and telling them heaven/hell doesn't exist and it's all a big fairy tale?

Let them decide for themselves. If your girlfriend wants to take them to church, there should be no problem with that. What if they decide to become Christians? Is that really such a bad thing from an atheist point of view? As long as they don't join the Westboro Baptist Church they should be fine. It's a common misconception that "Christian's hate gay people." While I can't speak for every "Christian" out there, I know that is not the true Christian viewpoint. I, as a Christian, believe it's a sin. Just like lying, stealing, watching porn... ect ect. I don't hate all the people who do those things either. And, like another poster said, that's why it's important to choose the right church.

I think you have a very negative outlook on Christianity. If you could see marrying a Christian and raising a family with one, I don't see why you would be so apposed to having kids that might grow up to be the same. I'm no marriage counselor, but I would think that raising kids in a home where the father has the mind set of "I sure hope my kids are nothing like my wife" is not a very healthy family environment.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Isn't one of the main things a lot of atheists dislike about religion is that it supposedly "indoctrinates" people at a young age? Wouldn't you be doing the same thing by forcing your atheistic views on them and telling them heaven/hell doesn't exist and it's all a big fairy tale?
What then, do you think he should lie to the kid and tell them he doesn't believe those things? His position should be something like "You can believe whatever you want, but my own belief is that its all nonsense, and if you want to know why i'll explain it". So then he learns both his mother and father's side, and the choice is ultimately his.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Let them decide for themselves. If your girlfriend wants to take them to church, there should be no problem with that. What if they decide to become Christians? Is that really such a bad thing from an atheist point of view? As long as they don't join the Westboro Baptist Church they should be fine. It's a common misconception that "Christian's hate gay people." While I can't speak for every "Christian" out there, I know that is not the true Christian viewpoint. I, as a Christian, believe it's a sin. Just like lying, stealing, watching porn... ect ect. I don't hate all the people who do those things either. And, like another poster said, that's why it's important to choose the right church.
He said one of his biggest problems was that Christianity "practically says that every human emotion is a sin". Seems like you are basically reaffirming exactly what his problem was. So seems like you're proving yourself wrong, here.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I think you have a very negative outlook on Christianity. If you could see marrying a Christian and raising a family with one, I don't see why you would be so apposed to having kids that might grow up to be the same. I'm no marriage counselor, but I would think that raising kids in a home where the father has the mind set of "I sure hope my kids are nothing like my wife" is not a very healthy family environment.
This, I actually agree with. If my girlfriend was insisting that the kids be raised christian, I think that would be a strong reason not to marry her.

Originally posted by King Kandy
What then, do you think he should lie to the kid and tell them he doesn't believe those things? His position should be something like "You can believe whatever you want, but my own belief is that its all nonsense, and if you want to know why i'll explain it". So then he learns both his mother and father's side, and the choice is ultimately his.

I don't necessarily think he should lie about it. But I find it a little hypocritical to criticize Christianity for something you are going to do yourself.

I think it should be given a fair chance. Again, what's the harm?

Originally posted by King Kandy
He said one of his biggest problems was that Christianity "practically says that every human emotion is a sin". Seems like you are basically reaffirming exactly what his problem was. So seems like you're proving yourself wrong, here.

In what way? I completely disagree with the stance that "every human emotion is a sin". I don't see Christianity teaching that at all.

I'm saying that if your kids are Christian, that doesn't mean they are going to hate gay people. Or anyone for that matter. In fact, according to Christianity, you aren't suppose to hate ANYONE.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't necessarily think he should lie about it. But I find it a little hypocritical to criticize Christianity for something you are going to do yourself.

I think it should be given a fair chance. Again, what's the harm?
But you're giving it a chance that you aren't getting atheism.

You DON'T believe he should be able to tell his kids atheism is right.
You DO believe the preacher should be able to tell his kids christianity is right.

Please, explain how this is not a double standard.

Originally posted by TacDavey
In what way? I completely disagree with the stance that "every human emotion is a sin". I don't see Christianity teaching that at all.

I'm saying that if your kids are Christian, that doesn't mean they are going to hate gay people. Or anyone for that matter. In fact, according to Christianity, you aren't suppose to hate ANYONE.
His point was that christianity teaches that many (in his view) harmless human behaviors such as homosexuality, masturbation, pornography etc are sins. And you just reaffirmed it. Obviously, christianity doesn't teach that every single emotion is a sin; just a ton of them.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Isn't one of the main things a lot of atheists dislike about religion is that it supposedly "indoctrinates" people at a young age? Wouldn't you be doing the same thing by forcing your atheistic views on them and telling them heaven/hell doesn't exist and it's all a big fairy tale?

Sure if he did that, but he can tell the child his beliefs, the girlfriend hers, and they can introduce it to other Philosophies and Religions just as well.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Let them decide for themselves. If your girlfriend wants to take them to church, there should be no problem with that. What if they decide to become Christians? Is that really such a bad thing from an atheist point of view? As long as they don't join the Westboro Baptist Church they should be fine. It's a common misconception that "Christian's hate gay people." While I can't speak for every "Christian" out there, I know that is not the true Christian viewpoint. I, as a Christian, believe it's a sin. Just like lying, stealing, watching porn... ect ect. I don't hate all the people who do those things either. And, like another poster said, that's why it's important to choose the right church.

See, that's the thing already though, it being a sin...what if the kid turns out gay? And he thinks he's a sinner? That's a terrible way to have to grow up. Obviously going to church, being exposed to a whole community of people who belief one thing, making friends with those kids, is going to be an extremely strong influence, giving this worldview an unfair advantage, especially if you don't believe in it. Even if the people don't actively try to indoctrinate, and some might, it will definitely passively happen, in such a scenario.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I think you have a very negative outlook on Christianity. If you could see marrying a Christian and raising a family with one, I don't see why you would be so apposed to having kids that might grow up to be the same. I'm no marriage counselor, but I would think that raising kids in a home where the father has the mind set of "I sure hope my kids are nothing like my wife" is not a very healthy family environment. Growing up to be one is one thing, pushing them in that direction is a totally different one. (also what about the wife, wanting them to grow up Christian, how is that not the same exact thing as your "I sure hope my kids are nothing like my wife" scenario?)

Originally posted by King Kandy
But you're giving it a chance that you aren't getting atheism.

You DON'T believe he should be able to tell his kids atheism is right.
You DO believe the preacher should be able to tell his kids christianity is right.

Please, explain how this is not a double standard.

Like I said, I don't think he should lie about it. I think, in a situation like this, the kids should be able to be exposed to both alternatives, and decide for themselves what they think is true.

I don't think they should be denied church and forced to be atheists. That's the exact same thing atheists criticize Christians for doing.

Originally posted by King Kandy
His point was that christianity teaches that many (in his view) harmless human behaviors such as homosexuality, masturbation, pornography etc are sins. And you just reaffirmed it. Obviously, christianity doesn't teach that every single emotion is a sin; just a ton of them.

I wouldn't label them emotions. Masterbation, porn, etc etc, aren't emotions. They are actions. Yes, there are more actions that are considered wrong from a Christian perspective than there are from an atheistic one. But THAT shouldn't be the reasoning behind denying them the ability to learn about Christianity.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Sure if he did that, but he can tell the child his beliefs, the girlfriend hers, and they can introduce it to other Philosophies and Religions just as well.

Yes, I think in a family situation where the parents have different views, they should allow the child to decide what view they think is the truth for themselves. It's the only fair way.


Originally posted by Bardock42
See, that's the thing already though, it being a sin...what if the kid turns out gay? And he thinks he's a sinner? That's a terrible way to have to grow up. Obviously going to church, being exposed to a whole community of people who belief one thing, making friends with those kids, is going to be an extremely strong influence, giving this worldview an unfair advantage, especially if you don't believe in it. Even if the people don't actively try to indoctrinate, and some might, it will definitely passively happen, in such a scenario.

It isn't a terrible thing to grow up knowing your a sinner. Everyone is a sinner. Any church will tell you that. One of the first things they make clear is that no one is perfect.

Like I said, I don't think you should force the kid to be a Christian, but I don't think you should deny him the possibility either.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Growing up to be one is one thing, pushing them in that direction is a totally different one. (also what about the wife, wanting them to grow up Christian, how is that not the same exact thing as your "I sure hope my kids are nothing like my wife" scenario?)

Well, they are a little different. And again, I don't think the child should be forced either way. I just don't see the harm in allowing your wife to take her kids to church with her.

And I still can't see, from an atheistic viewpoint, why having your kids grow up christian would be such a bad thing.

I'm sorry, who said it would generally be a bad thing? As far as I can tell people are against the indoctrination that bringing children to church week after week entails.

And what if the children don't want to go, should they be forced? How long should they have to go for?

Originally posted by Bardock42
I'm sorry, who said it would generally be a bad thing? As far as I can tell people are against the indoctrination that bringing children to church week after week entails.

And what if the children don't want to go, should they be forced? How long should they have to go for?

That's something you would have to work out in the family. Talk to your wife about it. But she should have as much say in raising the kids as the husband does.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That's something you would have to work out in the family. Talk to your wife about it. But she should have as much say in raising the kids as the husband does.

Yeah, and they probably should figure it out before. If it's an issue neither of them can budge on maybe they shouldn't have children.

My question was to what you think though, what would be right.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Like I said, I don't think he should lie about it. I think, in a situation like this, the kids should be able to be exposed to both alternatives, and decide for themselves what they think is true.

I don't think they should be denied church and forced to be atheists. That's the exact same thing atheists criticize Christians for doing.
Both alternatives? Excuse me? There are dozens of religions and you are not even getting close to a full view by sending them to church.

If you were really interested in them deciding for themselves, then sending them to church is backwards; the church will do anything in its power to make them decide in favor of it, while you have conveniently handicapped the atheist by telling him he can't insist on the rightness of his own views.

That's not deciding for themselves, that's a situation specifically set up to give an advantage to the christians.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I wouldn't label them emotions. Masterbation, porn, etc etc, aren't emotions. They are actions. Yes, there are more actions that are considered wrong from a Christian perspective than there are from an atheistic one. But THAT shouldn't be the reasoning behind denying them the ability to learn about Christianity.
What? That is obviously the most important reasoning. What could be more important to parenting than the set of rules you'll teach your kid to live by? Is he going to be taught masturbation is a sin, or not? Is he going to be taught that homosexuality is a sin, or not? How could you possibly deem these unimportant issues?

Do you think it is a parent's job to insure their kids grow up with a strong moral foundation?

Originally posted by Digi
You should talk to her and make sure neither is being judgmental. That will tell you if your problem is fixable or not. Posting on an internet forum, while great for soliciting advice, isn't going to solve anything. Because a phrase like "I have a feeling she'll say something like..." means that you haven't actually hashed it out yet. There's only so much you can plan for when you're speculating.

...

Personally, and this isn't advice, if I were in that position I'd push for not "raising" them anything. If she insisted on taking them to church, which is actively teaching them Christianity, I'd actively teach them atheism. Balance, rather than indoctrination.
i say things like that because im sure thats how she will react, your right though, if i teach my kids both sides they will eventually see what is right and wrong.
Originally posted by SamZED
Dont stop them from going to church, if you dont want them to believe in God there's a great chance (its the case for 90% of religious people anyway) that it will be nothing but a family tradition for them, which is a great thing for bonding. Most people that are biased against gays arent biased because of their religious beliefes. Them believing in God shouldnt cause any trouble as long as you teach them to be tolerant of other people. And while you may not believe in heaven/hell I dont see a reason to try and convince your kids that it doesnt exist, dont do that. Like Digi said, just familiarise them with both points of view and let them make up their own mind as they're older.
your right, maybe i shouldnt push the heaven or hell thing on them. i just dont want them thinking "heaven exists and there is no possibility of it not being there" as i see a lot of people do these days, im not being selfish, i think it would just be better for them to consider other things, you know?

Originally posted by TacDavey
Isn't one of the main things a lot of atheists dislike about religion is that it supposedly "indoctrinates" people at a young age? Wouldn't you be doing the same thing by forcing your atheistic views on them and telling them heaven/hell doesn't exist and it's all a big fairy tale?

I would never force anything on them, i would just inform them that my stance is that everything they say is so very unlikely. I dont believe in any of it, and i dont want my kids hearing "being gay is wrong" from a preacher. or "masturbation is wrong" from a preacher.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Let them decide for themselves. If your girlfriend wants to take them to church, there should be no problem with that. What if they decide to become Christians? Is that really such a bad thing from an atheist point of view? As long as they don't join the Westboro Baptist Church they should be fine. It's a common misconception that "Christian's hate gay people." While I can't speak for every "Christian" out there, I know that is not the true Christian viewpoint. I, as a Christian, believe it's a sin. Just like lying, stealing, watching porn... ect ect. I don't hate all the people who do those things either. And, like another poster said, that's why it's important to choose the right church.

Being a christian means adopting their ideals and beliefs, and yes i do believe those ideals are beliefs are bad, not all, but a lot are. ANY christian church will say its bad to be homosexual, and i dont want my kids thinking that. At all. Its not right to think homosexuality is bad, and what if my kid ends up gay? Should they think its bad to feel the way they feel? Some of the stuff you mentioned being a "sin" is not a sin in to me, nor i think it should be a sin for anyone, even religous people. How is it bad, in anyway, to masturbate? Lying and stealing are obvious things that are bad, they dont need to be taught in a church to know that. Dont take something thats yours, because it isnt yours and think of how that person will feel if you did that. Simple, right?

Originally posted by TacDavey
I think you have a very negative outlook on Christianity. If you could see marrying a Christian and raising a family with one, I don't see why you would be so apposed to having kids that might grow up to be the same. I'm no marriage counselor, but I would think that raising kids in a home where the father has the mind set of "I sure hope my kids are nothing like my wife" is not a very healthy family environment.

I do have a negative outlook on Christianity as a religion, because it teaches my kids things i dont want them to be taught, and the good things that religion and Christianity teaches them can be taught to them by me, and pure logic, religion is not needed for that.

You say marrying a "christian" but i dont see it as that. It hardly interferes with our relationship at all, I dont think of religion unless it is brought up. And its not that i dont want them to grow up like my wife, thats where your wrong and putting things in my mouth. My girlfriend is okay with gay people, but my kids my end up different, because not every one is the same. If my kids ever did grow up to be religous, i would want them to be a christian like her. My fears is that if i let them go to church, they believe that being gay is wrong, etc. etc. since a preacher would not hesitate to say things like that.

And so far ive read everyones posts, and king kandy seems to be getting really really close to how i feel about all this.

Originally posted by King Kandy
What then, do you think he should lie to the kid and tell them he doesn't believe those things? His position should be something like "You can believe whatever you want, but my own belief is that its all nonsense, and if you want to know why i'll explain it". So then he learns both his mother and father's side, and the choice is ultimately his.


He said one of his biggest problems was that Christianity "practically says that every human emotion is a sin". Seems like you are basically reaffirming exactly what his problem was. So seems like you're proving yourself wrong, here.


This, I actually agree with. If my girlfriend was insisting that the kids be raised christian, I think that would be a strong reason not to marry her.
I agree with everything you said here. Those are very valid reasons why i would not want them going to a christian church. I would not care so much they end up atheist as i would them not being christian, as I dont want them feeling bad for things that are completely normal. I would never force anything on them, i just want whats best for them. If they were in a religion that believed in a god but taught them that being yourself is okay and if your gay them be that way and normal feelings are good, and even if i did not believe that god existed, i would not care at all becuase they were being taught good ideals

There's jerks inside and outside of churches. Atheists can be just as preachy.

We all like to think life is peachy from our POV. It's not. There's just jerks on either side.

Facts: The Christian God is racist, sexist, and anti-homosexual. Not to mention a "jealous God" (He said it himself). He likes to get teh gays when they get too carried away (Sodom).

It's hard for me to like a God like that. Good thing I don't believe in that God.

Originally posted by dadudemon
There's jerks inside and outside of churches. Atheists can be just as preachy.

We all like to think life is peachy from our POV. It's not. There's just jerks on either side.

Facts: The Christian God is racist, sexist, and anti-homosexual. Not to mention a "jealous God" (He said it himself). He likes to get teh gays when they get too carried away (Sodom).

It's hard for me to like a God like that. Good thing I don't believe in that God.
I don't understand, isn't that your own religion? Did you leave christianity?

Originally posted by King Kandy

EDIT: That was probably not the best way of explaining what I meant. What i'm saying, is, the christian position is that atheism is totally wrong, a fraud. And that's the view he'll get when he's preached to. So it baffles me that you think its OK for him to let his kid be subjected to that, which is obviously not a position of "point of view", but you think that it would be wrong for the dad to present his own view with certainty. This seems to me to be saying, the preacher should have more authority than the kids own parents. Well, I didnt mean it that way.

Look at the the OP again. He wants to forbid his kids from going to church because he's worried they'll brainwash them into being intolerant of other people and this is laughable and will never happen if you're a decent parent. Letting kids go to church doesnt mean you're "relinquishing your parents authority". Its still up to you to raise your children any way you want. But being told an alternative point of view while knowing its just a belief and having the right to deside is better than having something forced upon you because of some silly fears that they'll grow up to crucify gay people. In the end of the day they will doubt some preacher's words (who they see like 3 times a month) as long as their father tells them its just an opinion. BUT they'll eat up anything their daddy tells them. So forcing your kids to become atheists is just wrong. Its a matter of having a free choice.

And going to church is more of a cultural thing this days. For most people its just a healthy family activity anyway, like bawling or camping.

Originally posted by SamZED
Well, I didnt mean it that way.

Look at the the OP again. He wants to forbid his kids from going to church because he's worried they'll brainwash them into being intolerant of other people and this is laughable and will never happen if you're a decent parent. Letting kids go to church doesnt mean you're "relinquishing your parents authority". Its still up to you to raise your children any way you want. But being told an alternative point of view while knowing its just a belief and having the right to deside is better than having something forced upon you because of some silly fears that they'll grow up to crucify gay people. In the end of the day they will doubt some preacher's words (who they see like 3 times a month) as long as their father tells them its just an opinion. BUT they'll eat up anything their daddy tells them. So forcing your kids to become atheists is just wrong. Its a matter of having a free choice.

And going to church is more of a cultural thing this days. For most people its just a healthy family activity anyway, like bawling or camping.
Wrong, if I understand, he would not "forbid" the kid to go to church... rather he doesn't want the mother to MAKE the kid go. You say free choice, but real free choice would mean its the CHILD's decision whether to go to church... and the mother should have no ability to make the kid do it.

It wouldn't be a healthy family activity. The father wouldn't take part and it would put a dividing line between parents.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't understand, isn't that your own religion? Did you leave christianity?

Sort of but not really. Keep in mind the Mormons think the bible has problems and the original context has sometimes been utterly destroyed from the bible.

Like, I'm not too sure about the "God-commanded" genocide thing. Did God really command genocide against the Jericho-ites?

Does God really hate gays...or is that just human addition to to God hating sin? From my recollection, all of us sin and God loves all of us, but hates sin. Seems contradictory but you can love someone but dislike their actions.

some of you think im trying to "force" my kids to be atheist.... i'm not. Let me ask you this: WHAT would my kid get from going to church? Everything you can think of, manners, some "good" morals, are all things i could teach them. And already stated numerous times, I do not want them hearing masturbation, being gay, lust, are bad things. Because they are not.

King kandy so if you were in my exact situation what would you do?

Originally posted by cool_ghost
some of you think im trying to "force" my kids to be atheist.... i'm not. Let me ask you this: WHAT would my kid get from going to church? Everything you can think of, manners, some "good" morals, are all things i could teach them. And already stated numerous times, I do not want them hearing masturbation, being gay, lust, are bad things. Because they are not.

King kandy so if you were in my exact situation what would you do?
I agree with you completely. I can see two courses of action.

1. Well, first off, if my GF was adamant about the kids growing up christian, this would be a deal breaker for me in terms of marriage.
2. I think children should truly be given the opportunity to make up their own minds... including all the arguments they want to hear from both sides, with complete honesty. And should be made aware that there are many other options as well, which they could be taught about if interested.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I agree with you completely. I can see two courses of action.

1. Well, first off, if my GF was adamant about the kids growing up christian, this would be a deal breaker for me in terms of marriage.
2. I think children should truly be given the opportunity to make up their own minds... including all the arguments they want to hear from both sides, with complete honesty. And should be made aware that there are many other options as well, which they could be taught about if interested.
you are right, but i know my girlfriend well enough and i know i could somehow reason with her to atleast let our kids make there own decision.

So i should let my kids do what they want, and say all sides of the situation? Like, lets say if they did want to go to church, let them, but calmly tell them that i don't believe in that, and that its okay to be gay, etc. etc. so they can make their own opinion based off what they heard from me and what they heard at church?

Yeah, that sounds good to me.

Because of your different beliefs I would talk things over now with her if you are sure this is the girl that you want to spend the rest of your life with.
\ if they are not talked about your marriage will not last.

So, the idea to "let the kids decide for themselves" sounds good and all, but how is this going to be accomplished? It's going to be many years before they are old enough to make that decision. It's not like you can keep the concept of god completely hidden from them until they reach a certain age.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, and they probably should figure it out before. If it's an issue neither of them can budge on maybe they shouldn't have children.

My question was to what you think though, what would be right.

That's a tough one. I would say it would depend on the age of the kids. If they don't want to go to church because they don't like getting dressed up, then I would say still take them. If they are old enough to say, "I don't want to go to church because I'm not interested in accepting this religion", then you stop taking them.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Sort of but not really. Keep in mind the Mormons think the bible has problems and the original context has sometimes been utterly destroyed from the bible.

Like, I'm not too sure about the "God-commanded" genocide thing. Did God really command genocide against the Jericho-ites?

Does God really hate gays...or is that just human addition to to God hating sin? From my recollection, all of us sin and God loves all of us, but hates sin. Seems contradictory but you can love someone but dislike their actions.

Christianity doesn't teach you are suppose to hate gay people. You are suppose to "love thy neighbor as thy self." You aren't suppose to hate ANYONE.

Sure, according to Christianity the act is wrong, but that doesn't mean you hate the person. That just means you believe they are doing something wrong.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Sure, according to Christianity the act is wrong, but that doesn't mean you hate the person. That just means you believe they are doing something wrong.

I don't hate you, I just hate who you are.

I am always against trying to manipulate the beliefs of children who are too young to decide for themselves themselves. If your girlfriend wants to take your children to church, I would say let her. But eventually they're going to want to know why their father doesn't go, at which point I would they should be given a logical explanation for why you don't believe. Just emphasize that they should decide for themselves rather than follow either parent.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Sure, according to Christianity the act is wrong, but that doesn't mean you hate the person. That just means you believe they are doing something wrong.
Problem is, the act is not wrong. So Christianity's assertion of this is utterly unfounded, and neither the person nor the act should be hated.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I don't hate you, I just hate who you are.

No. I don't hate you, I hate what you're doing.

My little brother comes over from time to time. When he does, he usually brings over a lot of friends at some point in his visit. Which usually involves a trashed house afterward.

I hate that he does that. But that's just how he is.

So I hate my little brother, do I? I think not. I'm perfectly able to love my little brother yet dislike his actions.

Originally posted by Varunga
Problem is, the act is not wrong. So Christianity's assertion of this is utterly unfounded, and neither the person nor the act should be hated.

You realize that you basically just said 'Christianity's assertion that it is wrong is not founded because it's not wrong."

That's basically saying, "It's not wrong because it's not wrong."

Originally posted by TacDavey
You realize that you basically just said 'Christianity's assertion that it is wrong is not founded because it's not wrong."

That's basically saying, "It's not wrong because it's not wrong."
I said that it is not wrong and that the Church's assertion is unfounded. Both claims that I made are true.

There is nothing wrong with homosexuals, nor the act of homosexual intercourse. You can find homosexuality in nature. In addition, the Church claims homosexuality to be immoral based upon the Bible, which is a bias book written by men that tells us to worship an immoral God. This is not the best source to follow on issues of morality. Which goes back to my point about the Church having no foundation for its assertion.

It's far more than me merely claiming "it's not wrong because it's not wrong."

Originally posted by Varunga
I said that it is not wrong and that the Church's assertion is unfounded. Both claims that I made are true.

There is nothing wrong with homosexuals, nor the act of homosexual intercourse. You can find homosexuality in nature. In addition, the Church claims homosexuality to be immoral based upon the Bible, which is a bias book written by men that tells us to worship an immoral God. This is not the best source to follow on issues of morality. Which goes back to my point about the Church having no foundation for its assertion.

It's far more than me merely claiming "it's not wrong because it's not wrong."

^^This is exactly why I would prefer my kids not going to church, but i guess I have to give them the chance to let them see for themselves. It would just feel odd if I were to let them go because I think that would not be best for them.

It seems logical to let them make there own decision, but at what age can they make such a decision? And up until that age, should I let my girlfriend take them to church or should I say no?

Remember everyone, the only reason I don't want them going to church is because I think it is best for them, not because i want them like me. I could not care less about the latter. The above post gives reasons of how church is in no way beneficial to my child. And every way that IS positive, could be learned else where.


So before my child is old enough to make the decision of wether or not he/she would like to go to church, can anyone give me a reason to actually take them there?

In all honestly, you have to decide. There is no set age for this type of situation; it all depends on your children and their personalities. Some mature faster than others and can make that sort of decision at a younger age, while others have to wait until they're older.

It's a difficult thing to deal with, and I agree that not going to church would be better for them. But look at it this way: you love your girlfriend and she is Christian, so it doesn't mean you kids will be bad people.

The only real issue I see is if one of them does decide against the religion later in life, it will cause doubt and confusion because it's something that's been taught to them so strongly. It happens to a lot of atheists who stop believing, including myself.

Originally posted by TacDavey
If they don't want to go to church because they don't like getting dressed up, then I would say still take them. That was the main reason I didn't like going to synagogue as a kid, that and that generally I found services boring (and soooo long on holidays), and that I'd rather have been home watching cartoons (Saturday morning toons!) or playing.

It was the same for me. I didn't care for going to church as a kid because I often found it boring. Still, I found myself believing in God, until I actually started reading the Bible for myself.

And realized the bigotry and hypocrisy of the religion.

And discovered the immorality of God.

And learned of the atrocities committed in the name of religion.

I think you all get the point...

if the religion that your children adopt is important to you and your partner, and you have a fundamental disagreement about what that should be, I'd strongly suggest really thinking about it, especially scenarios where giving your children the choice actually end up with them in the very specific place you didn't want them to be in the first place.

as intollerant as that might sound, if you have actual concerns about your kids being indoctrinated into Christianity, and you let them go to church, any time they get your perspective, you boil it down in many ways to mommy versus daddy. especially for younger kids who might not have the cognitive capacity to understand nuanced philosophical positions.

like, I think the ideal position is what King Kandy describes, but in that situation it looked like both parents didn't actualy have any disagreement about their child's future religion. if you feel a legitimate concern about your child being Christian, I'd almost say you probably shouldn't have a child with someone who wants them to end up that way.

also, I know I'm just parroting a bunch of stuff other people have said

Originally posted by Varunga
In all honestly, you have to decide. There is no set age for this type of situation; it all depends on your children and their personalities. Some mature faster than others and can make that sort of decision at a younger age, while others have to wait until they're older.

It's a difficult thing to deal with, and I agree that not going to church would be better for them. But look at it this way: you love your girlfriend and she is Christian, so it doesn't mean you kids will be bad people.

The only real issue I see is if one of them does decide against the religion later in life, it will cause doubt and confusion because it's something that's been taught to them so strongly. It happens to a lot of atheists who stop believing, including myself.
well up until atleast they know what they are doing, i am going to try and push for them to not go to church. Unless my girlfriend absolutely sets in stone she wants them to go to church (which is unlikely, as she isnt THAT religious) then they will not go to church. If they are older, and I see they can make a decision like that for themselves, and want to go to church be it out of curiosity or any reason, I would not mind them going as I am definitely not controlling.

Originally posted by inimalist
if the religion that your children adopt is important to you and your partner, and you have a fundamental disagreement about what that should be, I'd strongly suggest really thinking about it, especially scenarios where giving your children the choice actually end up with them in the very specific place you didn't want them to be in the first place.

as intollerant as that might sound, if you have actual concerns about your kids being indoctrinated into Christianity, and you let them go to church, any time they get your perspective, you boil it down in many ways to mommy versus daddy. especially for younger kids who might not have the cognitive capacity to understand nuanced philosophical positions.

like, I think the ideal position is what King Kandy describes, but in that situation it looked like both parents didn't actualy have any disagreement about their child's future religion. if you feel a legitimate concern about your child being Christian, I'd almost say you probably shouldn't have a child with someone who wants them to end up that way.

also, I know I'm just parroting a bunch of stuff other people have said
yea, until they can actually take a position on the matter, I am going to, in the best way I can, explain to my girlfriend why they should not go to church. If my kids ever ask why i don't go or believe in any of that, I will calmly tell them why in a complete honest answer.

Originally posted by inimalist
like, I think the ideal position is what King Kandy describes, but in that situation it looked like both parents didn't actualy have any disagreement about their child's future religion. if you feel a legitimate concern about your child being Christian, I'd almost say you probably shouldn't have a child with someone who wants them to end up that way.
Right, that's why that was the 2nd option on my list. You need both partners to go along with it. If it was really an irreconcilable difference then it really isn't the best pair to have kids.

Originally posted by cool_ghost
well up until atleast they know what they are doing, i am going to try and push for them to not go to church. Unless my girlfriend absolutely sets in stone she wants them to go to church (which is unlikely, as she isnt THAT religious) then they will not go to church. If they are older, and I see they can make a decision like that for themselves, and want to go to church be it out of curiosity or any reason, I would not mind them going as I am definitely not controlling.
A solution I have no qualms with. Everyone should have their own chance to decide, but I fully agree with keeping them away from church while they are young. I just hope you and your girlfriend can come to an understanding on this (which you should do before having any kids as responsible adults to begin with).

I wish you the best of luck in this endeavor, and I hope everything turns out fine for you.

Yes i will do that, thank you and everyone else for your input, its highly appreciated

Originally posted by King Kandy
if I understand, he would not "forbid" the kid to go to church... rather he doesn't want the mother to MAKE the kid go. You say free choice, but real free choice would mean its the CHILD's decision whether to go to church... and the mother should have no ability to make the kid do it.

Right, because freedom of choice is all about not letting your kids know what they're choosig between... He tells his kids about atheism.. lets them learn about religion.. then they can choose themselvs rather than only give him father's point of view which apparently comes down to "Dont believe in God or you'll grow to become intolerant of others".

Originally posted by King Kandy

It wouldn't be a healthy family activity. The father wouldn't take part and it would put a dividing line between parents. And what's stopping father from going to church along with them? Just because he's an atheist he cant tolerate being among christians? Dont think so. Dunno about your home but in most of the world they dont kick you out, not even from mosques, let alone churches. Or maybe you think that just because he's an atheist he cant spend time among religious people? If that's the case then its some lessong for kids on "tolerance".



Originally posted by King Kandy
Wrong Am not. v
Originally posted by cool_ghost
I strongly dislike the idea of my kids going to church.... at all... ...I dont even like the idea of my kids assuming there is heaven and a god and not taking the time to consider if any of that were true or not. And that's a little silly because if anything like this ever happens or they grow up and become homophobic the father will have noone by himself to blame because that would make him a bad prent who couldnt raise his kids well. But it is convenient to blame everything on church and preachers...

You don't feel like churches are often very much designed to indoctrinate children from a very young age?

Wouldn't the equal thing be the dad tells about what he believes....the mother about what she believes.

I think the going weekly to a community place where only one view is preached to them and they are drawn in with other activities is what makes it unequal...not what you said.

So I guess the question would be, if you don't want the kids going to church, do you have any problem with your wife talking to them about it? That might be a compromise you could make. But it still brings up the problem of a family "fighting" between mother and father unless it's done correctly.

Originally posted by Varunga
I said that it is not wrong and that the Church's assertion is unfounded. Both claims that I made are true.

There is nothing wrong with homosexuals, nor the act of homosexual intercourse. You can find homosexuality in nature. In addition, the Church claims homosexuality to be immoral based upon the Bible, which is a bias book written by men that tells us to worship an immoral God. This is not the best source to follow on issues of morality. Which goes back to my point about the Church having no foundation for its assertion.

It's far more than me merely claiming "it's not wrong because it's not wrong."

Obviously I disagree. I don't see the Bible nor God as immoral. At any rate, this debate will have to be saved for another time. This thread is not about debating the morality of Christianity.

Originally posted by Mindship
That was the main reason I didn't like going to synagogue as a kid, that and that generally I found services boring (and soooo long on holidays), and that I'd rather have been home watching cartoons (Saturday morning toons!) or playing.

Sometimes I still feel that way.

Originally posted by TacDavey
So, the idea to "let the kids decide for themselves" sounds good and all, but how is this going to be accomplished? It's going to be many years before they are old enough to make that decision. It's not like you can keep the concept of god completely hidden from them until they reach a certain age.



That's a tough one. I would say it would depend on the age of the kids. If they don't want to go to church because they don't like getting dressed up, then I would say still take them. If they are old enough to say, "I don't want to go to church because I'm not interested in accepting this religion", then you stop taking them.



Christianity doesn't teach you are suppose to hate gay people. You are suppose to "love thy neighbor as thy self." You aren't suppose to hate ANYONE.

Sure, according to Christianity the act is wrong, but that doesn't mean you hate the person. That just means you believe they are doing something wrong.

I argee and to say that God is hateful and sexist is a bunch of crap it is not true. How you got those ideas is beyond me. (I am talking about another post btw not to you Tacdave

the problem with all of this "choose between the preference of your mother or father" stuff is that 1) you and your wife are going to have to have an inhuman ability not to argue with eachother in a way that isn't devastating to your own relationship (it is easier for religion not to be a problem when you can live without it being brought up, however, now it will be something addressed on a weekly basis), 2) it almost certainly will strain the relationship between the child and the parent whose opinion is not chosen, and 3) even in the best case scenario for the last 2, we are talking as though these kids are at least 10-11, where they might be able to start distinguishing between things like "daddy thinks mommy's position on the supernatural is wrong" versus "daddy thinks mommy is wrong". it's hard to describe like that, lol, but I'm less convinced this "choice" idea is good for a very young child in this circumstance, because it really does make them choose one parent or the other. you would be giving them mixed messages, and it is a situation where one of you will win and one of you won't. it will do nothing but put stress on every relationship in the family, or, I feel that is the most likely outcome at least.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Obviously I disagree. I don't see the Bible nor God as immoral. At any rate, this debate will have to be saved for another time. This thread is not about debating the morality of Christianity.
It doesn't matter whether or not you disagree. I could easily start naming immoralities within the Bible, and the corrupt actions and statements God has done and made. But I will agree that that is a discussion for another thread.
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
I argee and to say that God is hateful and sexist is a bunch of crap it is not true. How you got those ideas is beyond me. (I am talking about another post btw not to you Tacdave
Merely asserting it as "a bunch of crap" and "not true" does not afford you any veracity. God has killed in the Bible multiple times.

God is directly said to hate; Psalm 11:5
God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah for homosexuality; Genesis

And in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot and his family were considered righteous people by God. Lot offered his virgin daughters to a crowd to be gang raped, Lot's wife disobeyed God, and his daughters got him drunk and had incestuousness intercourse with him.

If you honestly think there isn't something immoral about God, you're in deep denial.

Originally posted by SamZED
Right, because freedom of choice is all about not letting your kids know what they're choosig between... He tells his kids about atheism.. lets them learn about religion.. then they can choose themselvs rather than only give him father's point of view which apparently comes down to "Dont believe in God or you'll grow to become intolerant of others".
They would learn about Christianity, from the mother. Not going to church doesn't somehow mean that their mother is out of the picture. This sort of thing is best handled by the family, as well.

Originally posted by SamZED
And what's stopping father from going to church along with them? Just because he's an atheist he cant tolerate being among christians? Dont think so. Dunno about your home but in most of the world they dont kick you out, not even from mosques, let alone churches. Or maybe you think that just because he's an atheist he cant spend time among religious people? If that's the case then its some lessong for kids on "tolerance".
So you are saying that in a family where even a single member is christian, everyone in the family has an obligation to go to church? This is a preposterous double standard. I don't see how any rational person could consider it fair to balance the equation completely in christianity's favor. What if the dad was Muslim? Would you want the kids to attend both church and mosque?

Originally posted by SamZED
And that's a little silly because if anything like this ever happens or they grow up and become homophobic the father will have noone by himself to blame because that would make him a bad prent who couldnt raise his kids well. But it is convenient to blame everything on church and preachers...

Okay, let me make this more simple for you. Church preaches that being gay is wrong. I DO NOT WANT THEM THINKING THIS. If they learn from a priest that things like this are wrong, and then I go and tell them that the priest is wrong and being gay, masturbation is okay, etc. etc. it will confuse them, and if i am teaching them things against what the church is teaching them, what is the purpose of church anyways?

The purpose of being in a religion are to follow its ideals and beliefs, if i teach my kid that half those ideals/beliefs are wrong, and the other half are good(albeit pointless becuase they could easily be learned elsewhere) then what is the purpose of it? I can not think of one. Really.

Originally posted by SamZED
Right, because freedom of choice is all about not letting your kids know what they're choosig between... He tells his kids about atheism.. lets them learn about religion.. then they can choose themselvs rather than only give him father's point of view which apparently comes down to "Dont believe in God or you'll grow to become intolerant of others".


And i am not teaching my kids that "Dont believe in God or you'll grow to become intolerant of others". I am teaching them that if they completely follow christianity, they will grow up thinking that certain actions and behaviors are wrong and are "sins". You can't pick and choose what you want to believe in a religion, hence there is no point in being in that religion. You believe in all of it, or you take the good of that religion and follow those good morals without being in it.

its like saying "i masturbate, think its okay to be gay, have had premarital sex, lust for other people, want to be wealthy" yet im still a christian? Most people feel/do a lot of the things i said above, and most likely my children will to. I dont get how my children can be in a religion while doing so many things against that religions ideals.

Its one thing to commit a sin, feel bad for it, then repent. Thats different. But if my child unintentionally looks at other people because of a sexual attraction, wants tons of money, masturbates, etc. and does not feel bad for it, does not repent, there is not point in calling themselves a christian, nor being in that religion.

Originally posted by inimalist
the problem with all of this "choose between the preference of your mother or father" stuff is that 1) you and your wife are going to have to have an inhuman ability not to argue with eachother in a way that isn't devastating to your own relationship (it is easier for religion not to be a problem when you can live without it being brought up, however, now it will be something addressed on a weekly basis), 2) it almost certainly will strain the relationship between the child and the parent whose opinion is not chosen, and 3) even in the best case scenario for the last 2, we are talking as though these kids are at least 10-11, where they might be able to start distinguishing between things like "daddy thinks mommy's position on the supernatural is wrong" versus "daddy thinks mommy is wrong". it's hard to describe like that, lol, but I'm less convinced this "choice" idea is good for a very young child in this circumstance, because it really does make them choose one parent or the other. you would be giving them mixed messages, and it is a situation where one of you will win and one of you won't. it will do nothing but put stress on every relationship in the family, or, I feel that is the most likely outcome at least.

Thank you for the input, I am not arguing but here are my some what thoughts on the matter

1)arguing about a religion is a big deal, but I know my girlfriend well and I know myself well. It will cause arguements, but i would never let it devastate our relationship. If it came down to it I would let my kids go to church and openly teach them atheism so there is balance.

2) I will most likely be bothered if my kid(s) end up being christian, but not to a point of it straining our relationship. I would definitely not let religion get in the way of me being a parent.

3) This is why i am going to push for my kids to not go to church (for many reasons, reason that I believe would help them) until they are atleast old enough to make that decision on there own. Now it just comes down to problems with me and my girlfriend, and even though I would push for my children to not go to church, I would not let it get as far as to mess up our relationship. If it came down to it, like i said, I would just let my children go to church and do what digi suggested, openly teach them christianity and atheism as to create balance.


Originally posted by Varunga
It doesn't matter whether or not you disagree. I could easily start naming immoralities within the Bible, and the corrupt actions and statements God has done and made. But I will agree that that is a discussion for another thread.

Merely asserting it as "a bunch of crap" and "not true" does not afford you any veracity. God has killed in the Bible multiple times.

God is directly said to hate; Psalm 11:5
God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah for homosexuality; Genesis

And in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot and his family were considered righteous people by God. Lot offered his virgin daughters to a crowd to be gang raped, Lot's wife disobeyed God, and his daughters got him drunk and had incestuousness intercourse with him.

If you honestly think there isn't something immoral about God, you're in deep denial.

tsk tsk the people who are the least religious almost always know more about religion that the people who are. Varunga you make excellent sense

You obviously have a very negative outlook on Christianity and Christians. What would happen if your children DID grow up to be Christians and thought things like homosexuality was wrong? Can you honestly say that wouldn't hurt your relationship with them at all?

Originally posted by TacDavey
You obviously have a very negative outlook on Christianity and Christians. What would happen if your children DID grow up to be Christians and thought things like homosexuality was wrong? Can you honestly say that wouldn't hurt your relationship with them at all?

If your children grew up the gay atheists can you honestly say that wouldn't hurt your relationship with them at all?

Originally posted by TacDavey
You obviously have a very negative outlook on Christianity and Christians. What would happen if your children DID grow up to be Christians and thought things like homosexuality was wrong? Can you honestly say that wouldn't hurt your relationship with them at all?

Are you saying he's unable to hate the sin (being a Christian), but love the sinner?

Originally posted by cool_ghost
tsk tsk the people who are the least religious almost always know more about religion that the people who are. Varunga you make excellent sense
Thank you. This has always been an issue I found while debating religious people. They never seem to know their own religion and the many contradictions found within their own texts.
Originally posted by TacDavey
You obviously have a very negative outlook on Christianity and Christians. What would happen if your children DID grow up to be Christians and thought things like homosexuality was wrong? Can you honestly say that wouldn't hurt your relationship with them at all?
He already accepts his girlfriend as a Christian and loves her. Why would he act differently towards his children for choosing the other option?

Originally posted by TacDavey
You obviously have a very negative outlook on Christianity and Christians. What would happen if your children DID grow up to be Christians and thought things like homosexuality was wrong? Can you honestly say that wouldn't hurt your relationship with them at all?

I don't even have to answer this. They already did for me.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If your children grew up the gay atheists can you honestly say that wouldn't hurt your relationship with them at all?

No, but I don't have as negative an outlook on atheism as he seems to have towards Christianity.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Are you saying he's unable to hate the sin (being a Christian), but love the sinner?

No, I was asking a question. He can dislike the choice but love the person, but even so, especially with his negativity towards that particular aspect of Christianity, I would think there would likely be at least a little strain there.

Originally posted by Varunga
He already accepts his girlfriend as a Christian and loves her. Why would he act differently towards his children for choosing the other option?

Because, according to him, his girlfriend isn't "that type of Christian". The kind he was worried about his kids becoming if they went to church.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, but I don't have as negative an outlook on atheism as he seems to have towards Christianity.
The negativity comes from the hypocrisy and immorality that comes from Christianity. I would prefer my kids to be kept away from such a religion as well. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't accept his children if they did turn to the Christianity, nor did he ever imply such a thing.

Rubbish. There are children who go against what their parents desired for them everyday, and the parents continue to love them and carry on a normal relationship with them. I'm sure that he realizes that he would be no better than a homophobic parent who didn't accept his or her child for being gay if he allowed that to happen.

And if they did become those kinds of Christians, I think he could cope, no matter how strongly he disagrees with their views.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
I argee and to say that God is hateful and sexist is a bunch of crap it is not true. How you got those ideas is beyond me. (I am talking about another post btw not to you Tacdave

Errrr...God did punish Eve with extremely painful childbirth for eating a fruit, what happened to Adam? Honestly how many positive females were there in the Bible. Mary Magdeline was a prostitute. Several women were portrayed as nothing but manipulative seducers. Sounds pretty sexist to me.

Originally posted by cool_ghost
okay i have a girlfriend that i love, a lot. we get along, are nice, a great couple. shes a christian and im an atheist. religion has been brought up before, and even though i took it as lightly as i can, she was still getting uncomfortable with the topic.

the other day, we were talking about our future and having kids, and even though thats a while away, there is no harm and getting your opinion about this now. how would you raise your kids if you were in my situation? I strongly dislike the idea of my kids going to church.... at all. any religion that preaches against gay people, has a malevolent, selfish god, and practically says that every human emotion is a sin, is something i would not want my kids going to. I dont even like the idea of my kids assuming there is heaven and a god and not taking the time to consider if any of that were true or not.

And she isnt hardcore christian, but she claims herself as one, and definitely does believe in god.

I have a feeling she will say something like "it will teach them good morals" or something like that, but i could easily teach them good morals... i dont need church, or any religion to teach them good morals for that matter.

should i back up my ideals and not have them go to church? am i being selfish? words on this matter? lol


I have children, and my personal opinion is to let them figure it out on their own. I am not going to force them either way. When they are old enough, they will choose the answers that work for them. I honestly don't bring up religion with my children unless they ask.

I would try and explain this to your wife as well. You two could very easily teach your children good moral values without resorting to a book until the child/children are old enough to decide for themselves as you have stated. Good luck by the way.

Originally posted by socool8520
Errrr...God did punish Eve with extremely painful childbirth for eating a fruit, what happened to Adam? Honestly how many positive females were there in the Bible. Mary Magdeline was a prostitute. Several women were portrayed as nothing but manipulative seducers. Sounds pretty sexist to me.
Mary Magdeline was not a prostitute (try and find where it says that in the bible; it doesn't!)

Originally posted by King Kandy
Mary Magdeline was not a prostitute (try and find where it says that in the bible; it doesn't!)

She was a woman who was said to be exhumed of all seven vices, and it has been interpreted as her being a prostitute and was accepted by quite a few people. I will confer that it is debated however, but what part of Christianity isn't. No it doesn't specifically say this, but like I said, the Bible doesn't specifically say alot of things yet they are inferred or interpreted as such.

I'm sorry demons, not vices. Vices are what they are interpreted to be.

Originally posted by socool8520
She was a woman who was said to be exhumed of all seven vices, and it has been interpreted as her being a prostitute and was accepted by quite a few people. I will confer that it is debated however, but what part of Christianity isn't. No it doesn't specifically say this, but like I said, the Bible doesn't specifically say alot of things yet they are inferred or interpreted as such.
Well the Catholic Church actually rescinded that interpretation, so I would say it carries extremely little weight given it is:

a. not found in the bible
b. not recognized by catholics
c. not recognized by protestants

How long later though, and without even considering or refuting the original Pope's reasoning behind. This also adds to the point of how sexist a tme it was during the biblical period which was my original point to begin with.

Originally posted by socool8520
How long later though, and without even considering or refuting the original Pope's reasoning behind. This also adds to the point of how sexist a tme it was during the biblical period which was my original point to begin with.
Actually, it subtracts from the point.

You're saying the bible had her as a prostitute. Wrong, it never said anything of the sort. So what does the fact that a LATER pope said she was, have to do with the original point?

Do you know when the church first proclaimed she was a prostitute? 591. So if you want to talk about changing the original meaning, i'd be going after that pope, not the current church.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Actually, it subtracts from the point.

You're saying the bible had her as a prostitute. Wrong, it never said anything of the sort. So what does the fact that a LATER pope said she was, have to do with the original point?

Do you know when the church first proclaimed she was a prostitute? 591. So if you want to talk about changing the original meaning, i'd be going after that pope, not the current church.

No I conceded that it was not in the Bible but inferred by a Pope and others at that time. It wasn't until what, like the 60's until the Catholic church officially rejected it right? And like I said, that is how it was interpreted from the text itself. The writer may have actually meant that but it can be interpreted either way. Either she was just a regular old sinner like the rest of the world or she was a prostitute.

As for the protestants, alot of those sects don't believe that she could have been an apostle because she was a women. Even more sexist

Originally posted by Varunga
The negativity comes from the hypocrisy and immorality that comes from Christianity. I would prefer my kids to be kept away from such a religion as well. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't accept his children if they did turn to the Christianity, nor did he ever imply such a thing.

You are still attempting to label Christianity as "evil". As I have said before, and you even agreed, this is a debate for another time. If you want to make such a claim feel free to start your own thread. That's not the question we are discussing in this one.

Originally posted by Varunga
Rubbish. There are children who go against what their parents desired for them everyday, and the parents continue to love them and carry on a normal relationship with them. I'm sure that he realizes that he would be no better than a homophobic parent who didn't accept his or her child for being gay if he allowed that to happen.

As I said, I fully accept that it is possible to have a healthy relationship under such circumstances. However, the threat of an unhealthy relationship is very real, and as such some attention should be drawn to this possibility so as to make perfectly sure that it does not happen, and thus cause suffering for the child.

Originally posted by Varunga
And if they did become those kinds of Christians, I think he could cope, no matter how strongly he disagrees with their views.

That's what I was asking. He should make perfectly sure that he is prepared for the possibility, and make sure that his relationship with the child will not be damaged or strained should this outcome take place.

Originally posted by socool8520
No I conceded that it was not in the Bible but inferred by a Pope and others at that time. It wasn't until what, like the 60's until the Catholic church officially rejected it right? And like I said, that is how it was interpreted from the text itself. The writer may have actually meant that but it can be interpreted either way. Either she was just a regular old sinner like the rest of the world or she was a prostitute.

As for the protestants, alot of those sects don't believe that she could have been an apostle because she was a women. Even more sexist
"At that time"? At what time? Not the time the bible was written, but almost 400 years afterward. Almost 600 after the actual events!

Up until almost SIX HUNDRED years later, nobody had a hint of her being a prostitute. This isn't "at the time", this is WAY AFTER the time, and in the 60s, all they did was restore it to what it used to be; you know, before the pope foisted that interpretation on everyone.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, but I don't have as negative an outlook on atheism as he seems to have towards Christianity.

I feel that way towards Christianity because I have legitimate reasons why. I'm not being biased, I was raised and baptised christian, and a lot of there teachings and beliefs are contradictory, not so "good" as they claim to be, and the teachings and beliefs are very judgemental and close minded. You have no reasons to look at atheism that way because you haven't found any, obviously. Or atleast you have not found any that are legit and focus on Atheism, not the person.


Originally posted by TacDavey
No, I was asking a question. He can dislike the choice but love the person, but even so, especially with his negativity towards that particular aspect of Christianity, I would think there would likely be at least a little strain there.

I highly, highly doubt that. There is a possibility this could happen, of course, just like there is a possibility for many things, but I won't let that happen. Having petty emotions mess up a relationship with my child is pointless, as they are going to do what they want when they are older anyways. I will not agree with them if they become Christians, but it can easily be overlooked.



Originally posted by TacDavey
Because, according to him, his girlfriend isn't "that type of Christian". The kind he was worried about his kids becoming if they went to church.

Your right, she isn't. And I would dislike it if my children became full on christian. But easily put, Its just religion and they will always be my kids. So I would make the best of it and not let it strain our relationship.


edit: you have to remember most of my friends believe in god and/or are very religious, my parents believe in god and are christians, and as you already know the girlfriend I love believes in god, albeit she is not so much christian. So its absurd to think the relationship with my kids would be affected in barely any way, really.

Originally posted by cool_ghost
I feel that way towards Christianity because I have legitimate reasons why. I'm not being biased, I was raised and baptised christian, and a lot of there teachings and beliefs are contradictory, not so "good" as they claim to be, and the teachings and beliefs are very judgemental and close minded. You have no reasons to look at atheism that way because you haven't found any, obviously. Or atleast you have not found any that are legit and focus on Atheism, not the person.

That's not the point. The debate about the "morality of Christianity" is one for another time. The point is, for whatever reason, you have a very negative outlook on Christianity. So there is a higher probability that your relationship with a Christian will be more strained than your relationship with a non-christian.

I'm not saying this is going to necessarily be the case. I'm simply saying it's a higher probability.

Originally posted by cool_ghost
I highly, highly doubt that. There is a possibility this could happen, of course, just like there is a possibility for many things, but I won't let that happen. Having petty emotions mess up a relationship with my child is pointless, as they are going to do what they want when they are older anyways. I will not agree with them if they become Christians, but it can easily be overlooked.





Your right, she isn't. And I would dislike it if my children became full on christian. But easily put, Its just religion and they will always be my kids. So I would make the best of it and not let it strain our relationship.


edit: you have to remember most of my friends believe in god and/or are very religious, my parents believe in god and are christians, and as you already know the girlfriend I love believes in god, albeit she is not so much christian. So its absurd to think the relationship with my kids would be affected in barely any way, really.

Good. If you think the possibility will have no effect on your relationship, then that's fine. I just wanted to make sure, because not everyone would be able to honestly say the same. At the very least, it should be something considered before attempting to raise a family.