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Blood lusted going for the kill, no weapons who wins?

MN.

Iron Fist, imo.

IF,too versatile in fighting styles plus IF has his amp, yeah MN is in trouble.

I don't know that much about Midnighter, but from what I do know..

He wins

Originally posted by Cogito
I don't know that much about Midnighter, but from what I do know..

He wins

MN hurt Apollo, and held his own with Zealot.

But Danny has similar, and better, feats, like holding his own with, and even wrecking, the Wrecking Crew, or staggering Iron Man (Eventually losing, but looking good in the process.)

MN's calculations are going to be fundamental to beat Danny.

Midnighter. Especially after we saw him out react MM.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Midnighter. Especially after we saw him out react MM.


One high end speed feat won't put him beyond Danny though, considering he's dodged Iron Mans charge when he tried flying at him, and has plenty of examples of being faster than a speeding bullet..

Originally posted by cdtm
What was the context of reacting to Mr. Majestic?

One high end speed feat won't put him beyond Danny though, considering he's dodged Iron Mans charge when he tried flying at him, and has plenty of examples of being faster than a speeding bullet..

Not Majestic...Martian Manhungter. In the Stormwatch #1

Originally posted by cdtm
What was the context of reacting to Mr. Majestic?

One high end speed feat won't put him beyond Danny though, considering he's dodged Iron Mans charge when he tried flying at him, and has plenty of examples of being faster than a speeding bullet..

He didn't out react anyone. He stealth ambushed koed reboot Martian Manhunter with a pressure point attack. Prep-Man is insane and for some reason believes this is a speed feat.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He didn't out react anyone. He stealth ambushed koed reboot Martian Manhunter with a pressure point attack. Prep-Man is insane and for some reason believes this is a speed feat.

It it something of a speed feat. It's also a stealth feat. It can be both

MM sensed something wrong. MM got put down before he could react. MM has super-speed reactions (unless that was retconned, or that was a feint).

Thus, speed and stealth feat. They're not mutually exclusive.

Like I said before, MM has senses that allow him to identify such attacks and get out of the way. I don't know, maybe MM is weaker in the new dcu. But MM was able to work around that and take him out.

BTW: Assuming MM didn't get downgraded in the reboot

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/fasterthanthought.jpg

Context: JLA was trapped by telepaths. WW was Hippolyta at the time. Flash lent her speed to increase the speed of her thoughts so the four of them would be able to think faster than the telepaths guards. Superman, Flash, and MM already thought faster than the speed of thought, whatever that means.

It's nothing of a speed feat, MM stated he sensed something with a causal nonchalance and then he was stealth ambushed. One-shotting Jack before he could react, after witnessing Midnighter take out MM is a speed feat. If he had tried to react and the got taken down in spite of it you what have a point, but he didn't. He was just standing there, he sensed something, and was taken down. Did he sense a threat? Did he know where it was coming from? Did he know someone was about to attack him. It's like the classic movie / tv trope of hearing a creak behind you and turning just time to see someone attack. Nothing to do with speed whatsoever.

He wasn't supposed to be ambushed by a street. That's the point

Originally posted by Prep-Man
He wasn't supposed to be ambushed by a street. That's the point

He was ambushed by a street. That's the point.

Of course it's a speed feat.

MM has tons of ways to avoid that attack, from going intangible to moving to mind raping. He didn't have time to do any of them, even though he moves, and thinks, faster than thought.

Originally posted by Cogito
Of course it's a speed feat.

MM has tons of ways to avoid that attack, from going intangible to moving to mind raping. He didn't have time to do any of them, even though he moves, and thinks, faster than thought.

That's making the assumption that he new an attack was imminent. He didn't. He sensed something and then he was taken out. If what he had sensed was definitive enough to register as a threat, he would have gone intelligible instead talking about it...

Originally posted by Prep-Man
He wasn't supposed to be ambushed by a street. That's the point

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If what he had sensed was definitive enough to register as a threat, he would have gone intelligible instead talking about it...

Textbook PIS/CIS

Plus, you know the whole telepathy thing. What top tier with telepathy doesn't sense a street attacking or running to him going to ko him? Like I said, MM has used that to his advantage. Faster guys than Midnighter.

Originally posted by Cogito
Textbook PIS/CIS

It would be if he new he was about to get attacked, and instead of doing anything he stood there and let it happen, but there is nothing on panel that indicates that is the case. What we saw is MM getting a vague sense, informing his team, and then getting taken out via stealth ambush. There is no indication that he was expecting an attack and merely couldn't react fast enough to deal with it, that simply isn't what happened. What happened is he was standing around, sensed something, and was taken out before he identified what he sensed as a threat. That isn't a speed feat.

Yeah, gotta side with srank here. I've seen the scans. In no world is that a speed feat. It's cool, but that's about it.

He should, because he's done it before. Empathy, telepthay, and super senses like sight. Which is why it's hard for Batman (better stealth than Midnighter) hard to sneak up on MM.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
He should, because he's done it before. Empathy, telepthay, and super senses like sight. Which is why it's hard for Batman (better stealth than Midnighter) hard to sneak up on MM.

So by this logic, he shouldn't have been able to even get close to MM. Did he speedblitz MM from beyond telepathic range? No, it was just a moment of vulnerability for MM that MNer took advantage of. Reboot or not, I'm baffled that anyone could think otherwise.

Then be baffled, but I disagree.

Well, ok, but you're not explaining away the issues I have. If it's "empathy, telepathy, and super senses" that make him hard to sneak up on (quoted from your last post) then it's a stealth feat. Otherwise what you're saying is, MNer attacked him so fast, MM couldn't find him telepathically. And cautiously assuming that MM can use telepathy over a span of miles, that means that, what, MNer attacked so fast that J'onn couldn't detect him over several miles?

Telepathy does not justify it as a speed feat, unless you're willing to say that MNer covered miles in milliseconds. Your logic for justifying it as a speed feat is nonsensical. The only rational explanation is that MM wasn't using his telepathy actively at the time and didn't sense MNer. In that scenario, you or I could've gotten a hit in on him (though not KO'd him obviously).

Also, "he's done it before" is an invalid argument for a couple reasons. One, reboot. Two, he probably had his tp scanning "on" in the situations you're mentioning, which he clearly didn't here.

Go ahead and disagree, that's part of debate. But if you're sticking to your earlier guns, you're wrong.

I think it's a combo of the 2. But I hope we learn more from the incident, because like I said, stealth doesn't always work on MM.

Some posters on other boards agree it's a combo and MM might not be as powerful in the new DCU. Let's just wait and see.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I think it's a combo of the 2. But I hope we learn more from the incident, because like I said, stealth doesn't always work on MM.

Some posters on other boards agree it's a combo and MM might not be as powerful in the new DCU. Let's just wait and see.

Not my point at all. Obviously we have to wait and see for every DC character at this point. We know next to nothing. But you said it was a speed feat based on the premises that I just countered. A combo of the two, or wait and see, sounds like backing off from your earlier stance.

I'd still like to hear how it's a combo though. If you're blindfolded and I punch you in the back of the head after making next to no sound, is it a speed feat? That's basically what happened here. It's only a combo of stealth and MM being distracted.

Forthcoming issues may prove one or both of us wrong, but your current interpretation given the context is silly.

To me is just a Deathstroke-vs-Flash moment. Textbook example of PIS.

Originally posted by Digi
Not my point at all. Obviously we have to wait and see for every DC character at this point. We know next to nothing. But you said it was a speed feat based on the premises that I just countered. A combo of the two, or wait and see, sounds like backing off from your earlier stance.

I'd still like to hear how it's a combo though. If you're blindfolded and I punch you in the back of the head after making next to no sound, is it a speed feat? That's basically what happened here. It's only a combo of stealth and MM being distracted.

If it was pure stealth, MM wouldn't have sensed him in the first place. He knew someone was there and I don't recall Midnighter's stealth feats. Have any?

Originally posted by Bentley
To me is just a Deathstroke-vs-Flash moment. Textbook example of PIS.

Nah, that was PIS because Flash was aware of the situation. This would be like if Slade tagged Flash while Flash was asleep. I only think it's a low durability showing for J'onn (or a high striking feat for MNer)...I don't think it says anything about either's speed.

Midnighter was obviously using speed as he ko'd MM, Jack, and the Projectionist in a matter of moments.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
If it was pure stealth, MM wouldn't have sensed him in the first place. He knew someone was there and I don't recall Midnighter's stealth feats. Have any?

Quite a few, and a couple very impressive ones I can remember off the top of my head. Moot point though. Reboot. Why do you keep bringing up past feats?

And it can't be pure stealth? So if I sneak up on you, and you notice me when my fist is on its way toward your face, it's no longer a stealth feat because you noticed me before I attacked? That's what you're saying.

As srank pointed out "sensing something" isn't locating a person and an attack. MM didn't have the necessary information to react, vague sense or not.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Midnighter was obviously using speed as he ko'd MM, Jack, and the Projectionist in a matter of moments.

Changing your story again. We were discussing the attack on J'onn which was pure ambush. Not the flurry that downed all 3.

Yes, downing all 3 is a good speed feat. But neither of the other two have super speed. And if he caught J'onn unawares (he did) then it's only a moderate skill/speed feat.

Like if I was attacking 3 animals, 2 sloths and a tiger. I sneak up on the tiger and take him out without him being aware of me. At that point, is it really a speed feat?

Originally posted by Digi
Quite a few, and a couple very impressive ones I can remember off the top of my head. Moot point though. Reboot. Why do you keep bringing up past feats?

And it can't be pure stealth? So if I sneak up on you, and you notice me when my fist is on its way toward your face, it's no longer a stealth feat because you noticed me before I attacked? That's what you're saying.

As srank pointed out "sensing something" isn't locating a person and an attack. MM didn't have the necessary information to react, vague sense or not.

I'd like to hear them. Especially someone in MM's league.

Originally posted by Digi
Changing your story again.

A valid story, though.


Originally posted by Digi
Like if I was attacking 3 animals, 2 sloths and a tiger. I sneak up on the tiger and take him out without him being aware of me. At that point, is it really a speed feat?

Horrible analogy. The tiger doesn't have lightspeed feats.

Originally posted by Digi
Changing your story again. We were discussing the attack on J'onn which was pure ambush. Not the flurry that downed all 3.

Yes, downing all 3 is a good speed feat. But neither of the other two have super speed. And if he caught J'onn unawares (he did) then it's only a moderate skill/speed feat.

Like if I was attacking 3 animals, 2 sloths and a tiger. I sneak up on the tiger and take him out without him being aware of me. At that point, is it really a speed feat?

Obviously he needed to use speed to get to MM. You nor I wouldn't be able to do that, because we're not fast enough. Midnighter was.

I'm Manny Pacquiao is walking down the street and I yell "Hey Manny!" and then while he is saying "Did someone call my name?" I punch him from behind as hard as I can in back of the neck, did I "out react" Pacquiao?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'm Manny Pacquiao is walking down the street and I yell "Hey Manny!" and then while he is saying "Did someone call my name?" I punch him from behind as hard as I can in back of the neck, did I "out react" Pacquiao?

WTF is with these bullshit analogies?

Does Manny Pacquiao have MM speed feats? Is this a real comparison?

Does Manny have green skin? Is he from Mars?

LOL!

Originally posted by Digi
Nah, that was PIS because Flash was aware of the situation. This would be like if Slade tagged Flash while Flash was asleep. I only think it's a low durability showing for J'onn (or a high striking feat for MNer)...I don't think it says anything about either's speed.

The analogy is between MN's stealth and MM's detection. In that respect it just sounds like PIS unless these incarnations are very different from the previous one, or if MM actually played possum.

Originally posted by Cogito
WTF is with these bullshit analogies?

Does Manny Pacquiao have MM speed feats? Is this a real comparison?

*groan*

Do you not understand how Manny's crazy speed is completely and utterly irrelevant in that scenario, just like it was for MM? It doesn't matter how fast he is, and it doesn't matter how fast MM was. It's an ambush. Do you SERIOUSLY not understand the concept of an ambush? He blinded sided him.

American public school system?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Does Manny have green skin? Is he from Mars?

hmm

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
*groan*

Do you not understand how Manny's crazy speed is completely and utterly irrelevant in that scenario? I doesn't matter how fast he is, it doesn't matter how fast MM is. It's an ambush. Do you SERIOUSLY not understand the concept of an ambush? He blinded sided him.

American public school system?

Do you not understand that the reaction time between Manny and MM is like the difference between a candle and a star?

Do you not understand that an ambush relies on stealth and speed?

I agree on one thing, we shouldn't compare old MM feats, because this is a whole new ball game.

One thing is for sure, pre DCnU MM would not have gone out like that. Or be blindsided by stealth, seeing as Bruce (Who has better stealth feats) was unable at times.

Or Flash trying to blind side MM (who is a LOT faster than Midnighter) failed to take down MM.

Midnighter. Danny does better than the vast majority of streets/low metas though.

Originally posted by Cogito
Do you not understand that the reaction time between Manny and MM is like the difference between a candle and a star?

Do you not understand that an ambush relies on stealth and speed?

Flash is standing still. Invisible Woman walks up and touches him. Speed feat?

MM reaction time is completely irreverent to the equation because he was caught of guard and blind sided.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Flash is standing still. Invisible Woman walks up and touches him. Speed feat?

MM reaction time is completely irreverent to the equation because he was caught of guard and blind sided.

Does Flash have TP?

I think it's pretty obvious that Midnighter used speed. I mean, if he just casually walked up on MM, he would have seen it. Even if he were to walk up BEHIND MM, he would STILL be able to sense him through scent or pheremones or by hearing him.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I think it's pretty obvious that Midnighter used speed. I mean, if he just casually walked up on MM, he would have seen it. Even if he were to walk up BEHIND MM, he would STILL be able to sense him through scent or pheremones or by hearing him.



Nobody's claiming Midnighter has Flash speed, but he's fast for a human.

1. This is first appearance of MM and Midnigher
2. All feats prior to the reboot are irrelevant.
3. We don't know how fast MM is
4. We don't know how powerful his tp is
5. If we are pretending that previously existing feats are valid MIDNIGHTER HAS TP BLOCKS IN PLACE

Martian Manhunter sensed something and then he was ambushed before he recognized what it was or that it was a threat. It's not a speed feat, if you think it is then I would advise you to go immediately to your doctor and schedule an MRI.

Not ONLY that, but MM STILL sensed him. Midnighter did NOT give him TIME to give MM the chance to see if he was an freind or foe.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
1. This is first appearance of MM and Midnigher
2. All feats prior to the reboot are irrelevant.
3. We don't know how fast MM is
4. We don't know how powerful his tp is
5. If we are pretending that previously existing feats are valid MIDNIGHTER HAS TP BLOCKS IN PLACE

Martian Manhunter sensed something and then he was ambushed before he recognized what it was or that it was a threat. It's not a speed feat, if you think it is then I would advise you to go immediately to your doctor and schedule an MRI.

You go first.

Originally posted by Cogito
Horrible analogy. The tiger doesn't have lightspeed feats.

facepalm

Am I being trolled? Do I really need to explain that an analogy isn't a 1:1 comparison but analogous comparisons. No, a tiger doesn't have super speed, neither does Manny Pacquiao. But I also don't have MN'ers reflexes. It's the relationship between the two that's important, not the speeds.

Analogy. Not substitution. 2:4 as 100:200

Even if you disagree with my analogy, your rebuttal here is displaying a gross misunderstanding of how it is actually being used.

MN wins, hand down.

(a) where is the proof that mm felt threatened?

(b) if he didn't feel threatened, why would he have felt any need to use his speed?

(c) if he did not feel threatened, and felt no need to use his speed, he may as well NOT have any superspeed at all so how is this a speed feat for MN?

Originally posted by leonidas
(a) where is the proof that mm felt threatened?

(b) if he didn't feel threatened, why would he have felt any need to use his speed?

(c) if he did not feel threatened, and felt no need to use his speed, he may as well NOT have any superspeed at all so how is this a speed feat for MN?

I think it's the fact that he should have felt it/not be blind sided. But like I said and many here, this is a new MM. Old feats shouldn't be counted. And it's not like Midnighter doesn't have enhanced speed.

Anyway Iron Fist should win. He is more skilled, faster and his damage out put is several orders of magnitude above what Midnigher is capable of dealing with. It should play out similar to Midnighter's fight with Zealot, only in this case Danny hits about a million times harder.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
MN wins, hand down.

This is my vote.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I think it's the fact that he should have felt it/not be blind sided.

but he DID feel it. in fact, he COMMENTED on it. he simply didn't view what he sensed as a threat, therefore saw no reason to react to it in ANY way at all--no tp assault, no intangible, no superspeed.

i see no way this can be viewed as a speed feat.

Originally posted by leonidas
but he DID feel it. in fact, he COMMENTED on it. he simply didn't view what he sensed as a threat, therefore saw no reason to react to it in ANY way at all--no tp assault, no intangible, no superspeed.

i see no way this can be viewed as a speed feat.

Which is why he should have used empathy or telepathy. Which he has done in the past. But like I said, this is a new MM. Or a slightly changed in certain ways.

Ironfist vs Midnighter eh? Even if Midnighter loses, he wins

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Which is why he should have used empathy or telepathy.

you don't think he USED tp/empathy? then..... how do you think he sensed him at all.

I just said, it could have been his super senses. The White Martians were trying to pick up Batman through a combo of pheremones and telepathy. And super site. Did you read my posts?? :/

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Midnighter. Danny does better than the vast majority of streets/low metas though. I think something that may be lost is that Midnighter's probably got telepathic camoflauge, so it might actually be a feat of telepathy for J'onn to even sense him in the first place.

IF 6/10

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I just said, it could have been his super senses. The White Martians were trying to pick up Batman through a combo of pheremones and telepathy. And super site. Did you read my posts?? :/

not sight, obvioulsy. does he HAVE super smell? so you think it's possible he HEARD him? yet he said he SENSED him. that doesn't fly either.

and it doesn't matter. one thing is fact--he DID sense him. yet he clearly did not perceive him as a threat, hence he had no reason to USE his speed to defend himself. ergo, it was not a speed feat. anyway, i'm done trying to convince you.

i agree with ODG--it was more likely a STRONG feat for mm that he DID perceive MN though taking out MM was a great feat for MN regardless of how he did it.

n/t.

Originally posted by leonidas
not sight, obvioulsy. does he HAVE super smell? so you think it's possible he HEARD him? yet he said he SENSED him. that doesn't fly either.

and it doesn't matter. one thing is fact--he DID sense him. yet he clearly did not perceive him as a threat, hence he had no reason to USE his speed to defend himself. ergo, it was not a speed feat. anyway, i'm done trying to convince you.

i agree with ODG--it was more likely a STRONG feat for mm that he DID perceive MN though taking out MM was a great feat for MN regardless of how he did it.

We really don't know if MM didn't perceive him as a threat. He didn't have time to react. And Martians have super senses.

As much as I respect ODG as my protege, he is horribly wrong if he thinks IF doesn't win 10/10.

Originally posted by Mindset
As much as I respect ODG as my protege, he is horribly wrong if he thinks IF doesn't win 10/10.

If he's wrong, does that make him a bad student, or you a bad teacher?

Yeah, I'd like his opinion on the matter.

Originally posted by cdtm
If he's wrong, does that make him a bad student, or you a bad teacher? Well, he is a Guy fan, so you draw your own conclusions from that.

are YOU that 'guy'....?

Well so much for the new Mids having KK level pressure points.

MM was shown playing possum in the next storm watch as Mid's gave him props for it.

Hey, why is ODG banned?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Some posters on other boards agree it's a combo and MM might not be as powerful in the new DCU. Let's just wait and see.

This is just wonderful, the way you dodge and runa round debates, you were just trying argue with me in another thread that it the same MM and the author said so, and now your saying we must wait and see?

honestly your a friggin joke.

Originally posted by Digi
facepalm

Am I being trolled? Do I really need to explain that an analogy isn't a 1:1 comparison but analogous comparisons. No, a tiger doesn't have super speed, neither does Manny Pacquiao. But I also don't have MN'ers reflexes. It's the relationship between the two that's important, not the speeds.

Analogy. Not substitution. 2:4 as 100:200

Even if you disagree with my analogy, your rebuttal here is displaying a gross misunderstanding of how it is actually being used.
Yes your being trolled, the dude is a moron. He has a serous hard on for wildstorm characters and pretends things are feats and more impressive then they really are all the time. And he contrdicted him self numerous times from thread to thread. he pretty much changes his arguements at will. Go take a look at Psylocke vs Midnighter thread. He completely contradicts himself between the two thread.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I think it's the fact that he should have felt it/not be blind sided. But like I said and many here, this is a new MM. Old feats shouldn't be counted. And it's not like Midnighter doesn't have enhanced speed.

AND YET IN THE PSYLOCKE VS MIDNIGHTER THREAD YOU ARGUE THEY WERE THE SAME CHARACTER TO THE POINT OF SEVERAL TIMES STATING THAT THE AUTHOR SAID HIS HISTORY WOULD REMAIN THE SAME, BUT WHEN ASKED FOR EVIDENCE YOU IGNORED IT AND RAN AWAY. YOUR SO FULL OF CRAP IT UNBELIEVABLE.

The fact that it was a ruse by MM throws a monkey wrench into any claim about speed, stealth or anything else of the sort. I think I.F. takes it, but its one hellava fight.