Kaldor Draigo vs Kain

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FinalAnswer
Kaldor Draigo
http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/images/3/3b/Lord_kaldor_draigo_by_lynxc.jpg

versus

Kain
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/451105-kain_lokd_render1_super.jpg


Rules:
Kaldor Draigo has all his normal equipment and powers.
Kain has all the powers and equipment used by him in his games, and all on-screen feats are usable.


So, who wins guize?

Nephthys
In b4 BT-rampage.

ScreamPaste
WHY YOU DO THIS?! no expression

BloodRain
...I-I can't look away from that guys head for some reason no expression

NemeBro
Has anyone here ever walked into the Garden of Nurgle and burned it down?

Draigo has.

Burning thought
I cant find any solid basis on Kaldor Draigo. Only that he seems to be in many heated debates on whether his fluff is believable or not. Other than that, hes fought and defeated Bloodthirsters and deamon princes but then, ive seen Titus defeat a Deamon prince with a chainsword and regular power armour.

Also whats his sword? a power/relic blade?

NemeBro
Originally posted by Burning thought
I cant find any solid basis on Kaldor Draigo. Only that he seems to be in many heated debates on whether his fluff is believable or not. Other than that, hes fought and defeated Bloodthirsters and deamon princes but then, ive seen Titus defeat a Deamon prince with a chainsword and regular power armour.

Also whats his sword? a power/relic blade? A Nemesis Force Weapon, one forged from the axe of a Bloodthirster.

Kaldor Draigo has bested a Daemon Primarch alone and unaided.

He has walked into the Garden of Nurgle, and burned it to the ground.

He has fought Bloodthirsters in the Warp, where they are at their most powerful, and killed them... Bare-handed.

He solved the Infinite Labyrinth of Tzeentch, and smashed the Inevitable City to rubble, killing the Lord of Change inside it as well.

Also, Titus defeated a Daemon Prince that wasn't fully awakened.

Draigo is easily the single most powerful man in the Imperium, and possibly the most powerful psyker there as well.

Burning thought
None of those claims are gaugable tbh, infact, it may be a better gauge for the power of Deamon princes and Bloodthirsters etc, because isnt Kaldor simply another space marine? Hes a grey knight with some great equipment sure, but a grey knight all the same. Are there more gaugable feats, e.g. him throwing a skyscraper, or him taking a Volcano cannon to the chest or something more solid than "he defeated".

I have yet to see anything there that means he can survive attacks from Kain, although he may be able to destroy Kain, but again Space marines are fast, but not teleportation fast, possibly not even Tk resistant or mind control resistant, for example what feats are based on "most powerful psyker".

NemeBro
Originally posted by Burning thought
None of those claims are gaugable tbh, infact, it may be a better gauge for the power of Deamon princes and Bloodthirsters etc, because isnt Kaldor simply another space marine? Hes a grey knight with some great equipment sure, but a grey knight all the same. Are there more gaugable feats, e.g. him throwing a skyscraper, or him taking a Volcano cannon to the chest or something more solid than "he defeated".

I have yet to see anything there that means he can survive attacks from Kain, although he may be able to destroy Kain, but again Space marines are fast, but not teleportation fast, possibly not even Tk resistant or mind control resistant, for example what feats are based on "most powerful psyker". You'd have something vaguely resembling a point, were it not for the fact that Daemon Princes and Bloodthirsters do in fact have feats. A Bloodthirster can cut a Leman Russ in half, or hamstring a Carnifex with a single attack. Draigo fistfought one in the Warp and killed it.

Grey Knights are the most powerful Space Marines in the Imperium, with Draigo being the strongest.

Space Marines can react to and deflect bolter shells with a power sword. Hell, mere Inquisitors can do the same.

Draigo is immune to the mind games of Lords of Change (One, M'kaechan, who is particularly powerful in such things, tried to sway him, and Draigo proceeded to blow up the Inevitable City, laying him low), and even the Infinite Labyrinth. He's well beyond Kain's ability to control. As for telekinesis, lol, Kain is a pretty poor telekinetic by psyker standards. The Daemon Prince in Eisenhorn can rip a starship from its moorings.

Draigo burned down the Garden of Nurgle with sacred psychic flame. As in, he burned down the entire Garden of Nurgle. He walked into the single greatest concentration of poxes and plagues in the Warp or out of it, and burned it down.

Burning thought
I dont know the context of this "fist fight", it sounds like bad writing or more importantly, unusual context since I cant imagine the winged, typically axe wielding Bloodthirster would use its fists.

"most powerful", what states this? I thought they were simply the more equiped for fighting all Demonic threats specifically.

Again context, and that does not mean anything, and then add on any reflexes could be removed with time stop spells or Kains AoE time powers.

Define "mind games", can you give me a line or quote that states the Lord of change actually attempted to mind control him? "swaying" someone is not a feat of mind control, but suggestion. Maybe but if you cant identify a time where the fluff specifically stated someone could not TK daigo then youve got nothing but Daigo hovering in the air in TK.

How can you gauge that? he burned something that seems pretty vague by your describing it, I know what Nurgle and his plauges are but how hard they are to burn? I think your using nurgles name and the vastness of what he represents to hype this feat. The Bloodthirser and Deamon prince combat sounds more impressive.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know the context of this "fist fight", it sounds like bad writing

Now you're getting it.



Oh, sorry I guess my post was misleading. Draigo was weaponless. The Bloodthirster was not.



You want me to prove that the Grey Knights are the most powerful Space Marines? Really?

Their equipment is far better, first of all, wielding Aegis Power Armour, a few steps above the Aquila Armour that is most common among other Astartes. They are all accomplished psykers, and each one is equipped with a powerful Nemesis Force Weapon.

That doesn't mean that a random Grey Knight can beat any Astartes from another chapter, but they are more powerful, and Draigo is stronger than any other Astartes in the Imperium.



In the old game "Inquisitor" an Inquisitor with a power weapon or force weapon could deflect incoming fire, this is shown in Eisenhorn and Ravenor IIRC, and a Word Bearer in The First Heretic deflects bolter rounds fired at Lorgar by a Custodes.



Nah. Not quoting, don't really care. Oh, the six favored Handmaidens of Slaanesh also attempted to tempt Draigo, who proceeded to kill the shit out of them. Seriously, Draigo fights Daemons, the average Daemonette has powers of mind control. Mind control isn't working.

Lol. No, that's not how it works. Were that the case the average Lord of Change could beat Draigo. It can't. Hell, Aegis Power Armour, the kind every Grey Knight wears, is already at base resistant to psychic powers. Draigo smashed the Inevitable City to rubble with his psychic powers. Kain is much weaker in that regard than Draigo. Oh, Draigo also, in the official art, is shown overpowering M'kaechan, the Lord of Change, with his psychic powah. A Lord of Change can with a flick of the finger devour souls, or warp and twist a skyscraper.



If you believe walking into the domain of a Chaos God and destroying it is not impressive you're an idiot.

Burning thought
Originally posted by NemeBro
Now you're getting it.



Oh, sorry I guess my post was misleading. Draigo was weaponless. The Bloodthirster was not.



You want me to prove that the Grey Knights are the most powerful Space Marines? Really?

Their equipment is far better, first of all, wielding Aegis Power Armour, a few steps above the Aquila Armour that is most common among other Astartes. They are all accomplished psykers, and each one is equipped with a powerful Nemesis Force Weapon.

That doesn't mean that a random Grey Knight can beat any Astartes from another chapter, but they are more powerful, and Draigo is stronger than any other Astartes in the Imperium.



In the old game "Inquisitor" an Inquisitor with a power weapon or force weapon could deflect incoming fire, this is shown in Eisenhorn and Ravenor IIRC, and a Word Bearer in The First Heretic deflects bolter rounds fired at Lorgar by a Custodes.



Nah. Not quoting, don't really care. Oh, the six favored Handmaidens of Slaanesh also attempted to tempt Draigo, who proceeded to kill the shit out of them. Seriously, Draigo fights Daemons, the average Daemonette has powers of mind control. Mind control isn't working.

Lol. No, that's not how it works. Were that the case the average Lord of Change could beat Draigo. It can't. Hell, Aegis Power Armour, the kind every Grey Knight wears, is already at base resistant to psychic powers. Draigo smashed the Inevitable City to rubble with his psychic powers. Kain is much weaker in that regard than Draigo. Oh, Draigo also, in the official art, is shown overpowering M'kaechan, the Lord of Change, with his psychic powah. A Lord of Change can with a flick of the finger devour souls, or warp and twist a skyscraper.



If you believe walking into the domain of a Chaos God and destroying it is not impressive you're an idiot.

So wheres the context though? again without a quote this cant really help you, for all I know this Bloodthirster was for some reason weakened, or did not use its weapons.

So you change your statement, the basic one is more powerful than the basic space marine on a generalisation scale of course.

How do you know hes stronger? So far youve claimed vague things to me, not a feasable feat tbh, for example you claiming monomolecular blades and Carnifex tossing over skyscrapers is gaugable.

Since i have Eisenhorn I should know it, you must be able to get a quote or pagenumber even if your using an E-book...

Again, your saying "they have mind control" but no specification of them using it.

This simply proves that Daigo can fight psykers, Kains not a psyker, their powers over the warp and immateriam work differently against one another, for example some imperium powers are especially effective against demons. Kains simply using kinetic forces, not psyker control.

Or simply not impressed by titles as you are, the Chaos Gods didnt do anything about it I presume? Just left him to it? My guess is your avoiding context for a reason, theres usually a reason for certain powerful entities in WH40k not to be able to, or did not destroy others. For example Cherubael, a former deamon prince in Eisonhorn does not kill Eisenhorn simply because of its personality and even allows Eisenhorn to eventually control it, theres a deep plot around why Cherubael fails to actually destroy Eisenhorn and its not just because Eisenhorn is a more powerful Psyker or anything of the sort.

ArtificialGlory
Why didn't Nurgle kill him personally?

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Why didn't Nurgle kill him personally?

Because he was too busy hiding under his bed curled up in a ball as Draigo wrecked his home.

Burning thought
A good question AG, as i thought, theres some context here. I refuse to believe Daigo has a higher power over the warp or psyker energies than a Chaos God with the same incredulous notion that theres no context behind these events.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Burning thought
A good question AG, as i thought, theres some context here. I refuse to believe Daigo has a higher power over the warp or psyker energies than a Chaos God with the same incredulous notion that theres no context behind these events.

BT, welcome to the wonderful world of Mat Ward, where all space marines hail Roboute Guilliman as their spiritual liege, and Necrons and Blood Angels have an epic bromance.

And the C'tan are on the run from the Necrons apparently.

Burning thought
All space marines? But hes the Ultramarine Primarch no? I thought there was bullshit going on here.....

"sigh", is this dude considered canon within the whole 40k verse? or are all novels made in the name of 40k taken with the same credability?

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Burning thought
All space marines? But hes the Ultramarine Primarch no? I thought there was bullshit going on here.....

"sigh", is this dude considered canon within the whole 40k verse? or are all novels made in the name of 40k taken with the same credability?

All but a few unwieldy chapters, like the Dark Angels, Black Templars and Space Wolves, who are slowly dying out.

As Draigo was part of the 5th Edition Grey Knights Codex, yes.

NemeBro
You see guys, Draigo is just so super awesome he can do super awesome things and no one can **** with him. In fact, the text directly states that he is utterly immune to the will of the Chaos Gods, and that they can't kill him apparently.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So wheres the context though? again without a quote this cant really help you, for all I know this Bloodthirster was for some reason weakened, or did not use its weapons.

Context? What "context" do you need? He beat the Bloodthirster with no weapons, slaying it. That's it. Assuming that it was weakened or did not use its weapons is just that: An assumption. Stop assuming shit, and just listen to what I say.



How did I "change my statement"? I said Grey Knights are the most powerful of Marines. They are, and those are the reasons why.

If "pushing over a skyscraper" and "monomolecular blades" is not a gaugable feat for you, then you do realise you have to stop using the calculations you had people use for Kain right? And Draigo is the strongest because he's been running around the Warp for hundreds of years ****ing shit up without anything so much as giving him pause.



I actually brought up Eisenhorn mostly because I assumed you'd read it, and this is just what I've heard. When I get that far in Eisenhorn, will try to remember to give you the chapter.

But yes, this also occurs in First Heretic, and is a standard rule in Inquisitor, which inspired Eisenhorn actually.



The Handmaidens of Slaanesh tried to tempt Draigo, Draigo told them "no." Draigo has managed to remain uncorrupted and immune to the effects of the psyche in the Warp for hundreds of years. Kain is doing nothing.



You're right, he's weaker than the average telekinetic psyker. Beyond that, prove Kain can lift a Marine in Terminator armour with his psychic powers, especially one as powerful a psyker as Draigo.



Actually BT, you're just not as smart as me. That is the context. He walked into the Garden of Nurgle and burned it the **** down. Space AIDS? Pft, no. Draigo burned down the Garden of Nurgle with psyflame. That is the context given. What more do you want me to say? I'm not going to invent details that don't exist. Draigo is the product of very bad writing.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Burning thought
All space marines? But hes the Ultramarine Primarch no? I thought there was bullshit going on here.....

"sigh", is this dude considered canon within the whole 40k verse? or are all novels made in the name of 40k taken with the same credability? Actually, Roboute Guilliman is legitimately one of the most well-respected Primarchs in the Imperium, Ward did not invent that. Only Sanguinius is respected more.

Matt Ward has written most of the codices of fifth edition, he is very much canon.

Burning thought
Originally posted by NemeBro
You see guys, Draigo is just so super awesome he can do super awesome things and no one can **** with him. In fact, the text directly states that he is utterly immune to the will of the Chaos Gods, and that they can't kill him apparently.



Context? What "context" do you need? He beat the Bloodthirster with no weapons, slaying it. That's it. Assuming that it was weakened or did not use its weapons is just that: An assumption. Stop assuming shit, and just listen to what I say.



How did I "change my statement"? I said Grey Knights are the most powerful of Marines. They are, and those are the reasons why.

If "pushing over a skyscraper" and "monomolecular blades" is not a gaugable feat for you, then you do realise you have to stop using the calculations you had people use for Kain right? And Draigo is the strongest because he's been running around the Warp for hundreds of years ****ing shit up without anything so much as giving him pause.



I actually brought up Eisenhorn mostly because I assumed you'd read it, and this is just what I've heard. When I get that far in Eisenhorn, will try to remember to give you the chapter.

But yes, this also occurs in First Heretic, and is a standard rule in Inquisitor, which inspired Eisenhorn actually.



The Handmaidens of Slaanesh tried to tempt Draigo, Draigo told them "no." Draigo has managed to remain uncorrupted and immune to the effects of the psyche in the Warp for hundreds of years. Kain is doing nothing.



You're right, he's weaker than the average telekinetic psyker. Beyond that, prove Kain can lift a Marine in Terminator armour with his psychic powers, especially one as powerful a psyker as Draigo.



Actually BT, you're just not as smart as me. That is the context. He walked into the Garden of Nurgle and burned it the **** down. Space AIDS? Pft, no. Draigo burned down the Garden of Nurgle with psyflame. That is the context given. What more do you want me to say? I'm not going to invent details that don't exist. Draigo is the product of very bad writing.

I need a lot of context, your using a Bloodthirster who cant dominate whos not much more than a space marine with epic equipment. Your vague in what you say and you hype things.

No you misunderstand, I said pushing over skyscrapers was gaugable, what your claiming here is not.

I have a year or so ago, but its 3 novels and conjoining stories combined are quite a large amount of information so ill wait for that quote/page number.

So now its clear, "tempt", nothing to do with mind rape. kains going to go into Daigo's mind without him knowing and in seconds take his will from him, Kains not going to get undressed and "tempt" Daigo with pleasure.

Do you have any numbers on how much it weighs? I doubt its in the ton range, which is Raziels weaker Tk strike level.

laughing funny coming from the guy who cant understand pressure, who basis impressiveness purely on size and claims "tempt" as comparable to direct mind rape. So theres no gauge then....this feat is useless, nobody knows what "burning down Garden of nurgle" really means.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Burning thought
I need a lot of context, your using a Bloodthirster who cant dominate whos not much more than a space marine with epic equipment. Your vague in what you say and you hype things.


So now its clear, "tempt", nothing to do with mind rape. kains going to go into Daigo's mind without him knowing and in seconds take his will from him, Kains not going to get undressed and "tempt" Daigo with pleasure.



Draigo dominates the entire warp. It's stated that he is so powerful that only the most insane of Khorne's minions even dare to attack him anymore. Draigo is by no means just an "ordinary space marine". This is a man who would beat all of the primarchs. At once.

Ignoring the fact that mental domination is a standard power for daemons, especially those of Slaanesh, and that it would be beyond sense for none of the hordes of demons Draigo has butchered to try mental powers on him.

Burning thought
I dont know about all the Primarchs, since I read through the wiki and if its correct, hes been killing a lot of mooks as well as greater deamons. And on top of that, most of his actions are worthless because the Chaos Gods simply renew anything he destroys including their forces.

They did not use mental powers though, they used temptation, literally. The wiki even says they attempted a combination of things from "pleasure", a "way home", "riches" simple things, Kains not offering him anything, hes just going straight to the point to get his way and Daigo as far as I have read has never faced this.

Claiming someone hes faced "may" have used a power just because they have done it before or have had access to it is making things up, the amount of characters Kain has faced who i could use powers from, from lightnings heat to transformations etc would be decent enough.

At the end of the day though, Draigo has yet to fight someone with the durability of a stars core across his body or several times planet cores per every several millimeters and further, has never been struck it seems by great pressure, let alone 3x earth core+

Kain hits and takes hits at planetary level pressures, these bloodthirsters from the wiki are not much more than the DoW games display them as, or Space marine, just demons who in most of their fights with him make mistakes, e.g. leave themselves open to a heart impalement. Bad writing it may be, but its still not too great featwise other than if you try and use feats from other books for creatures and fill in "gaps" with powers that were not used.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know about all the Primarchs, since I read through the wiki and if its correct, hes been killing a lot of mooks as well as greater deamons. And on top of that, most of his actions are worthless because the Chaos Gods simply renew anything he destroys including their forces.

They did not use mental powers though, they used temptation, literally. The wiki even says they attempted a combination of things from "pleasure", a "way home", "riches" simple things, Kains not offering him anything, hes just going straight to the point to get his way and Daigo as far as I have read has never faced this.

Claiming someone hes faced "may" have used a power just because they have done it before or have had access to it is making things up, the amount of characters Kain has faced who i could use powers from, from lightnings heat to transformations etc would be decent enough.

At the end of the day though, Draigo has yet to fight someone with the durability of a stars core across his body or several times planet cores per every several millimeters and further, has never been struck it seems by great pressure, let alone 3x earth core+

Kain hits and takes hits at planetary level pressures, these bloodthirsters from the wiki are not much more than the DoW games display them as, or Space marine, just demons who in most of their fights with him make mistakes, e.g. leave themselves open to a heart impalement. Bad writing it may be, but its still not too great featwise other than if you try and use feats from other books for creatures and fill in "gaps" with powers that were not used.

No Primarch is anywhere near capable of waltzing through the warp, slaughtering armies of demons by himself, and then going around and destroying the domains of the Chaos Gods.

Destroying the domains of the Chaos Gods likely hinders them, since it takes time for their realms to rebuild, but whether or not it's worthless is moot, Draigo is unstoppable in the warp, as it's stated not even the Chaos Gods can remove or kill him.

I'll say it again, mind powers are standard amongst demons, especially Lords of Change and Keepers of Secrets. Draigo has faced everything the Chaos Gods could throw at him. Are you seriously saying that not one demon in the entire warp would think, "Hey, maybe I should use my mental powers on him?"

Considering that that's likely not canon, as Kain at no point in the entirety of the LoK series demonstrates being that durable in any canon cutscene, no enemies that he fights that could be considered a threat have any feats like that, and that you would have to prove the LoK development team intended that for the feat you're bringing up, nah. Not to mention, as it's already been stated by several others, that's not nearly as impressive as you make it sound.

Show me scans of Kain at any point demonstrating this level of strength and durability pl0x.

Oh, I do enjoy your ridiculous assumptions. Yes, every foe that Draigo has fought, whether it be ridiculously old demons that are so far beyond mortal skill in terms of weapons, not to mention strength, or a Daemon Primarch, beings crafted by the Emperor himself to be his avatars, just make mistakes and slip on banana peels during the fight. Okily dokily.

FinalAnswer
Oh, and ftr, about the gai blocking bolter fire from a Custodes, the context is that, after commencing a preemptive attack on the Word Bearers and speedblitzing 3 marines, the Custodes fired a spray of bolter fire at Lorgar. Argel Tel managed to block the bolter fire, while a chaplain fired a point blank blast into the Custodes' head.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Burning thought
I need a lot of context, your using a Bloodthirster who cant dominate whos not much more than a space marine with epic equipment. Your vague in what you say and you hype things.

You're not very smart, are you?

I'm telling you Draigo is much, much more than a Space Marine with epic equipment.

Draigo beat a Bloodthirster without a weapon, in the Warp, where the Bloodthirster is at its reality warping strongest.

That is the context.

"For an uncounted age Draigo wandered that terrible
landscape. His path was strewn by Daemons fair and foul,
who sought to slay him or seduce him to darkness, yet
Draigo overcame them all. Atop the Blood Falls, where the
acrid ichor of Khorne's fallen champions tumbles endlessly
into the void, Draigo slew the great Bloodthirster Kar'voth.
With cleansing fire he drove daemonic taint from the beast's
great axe, and used the molten remains to reforge his sword,
sundered in battle with M'kar the Reborn so long ago."

This is the passage. I suppose you could argue that he used his psychic powers to do so, but it's largely irrelevant.



Ah, I misunderstood.

Okay. Here is something gaugable.

Draigo physically overpowered a Daemon Primarch, forcing him to the ground and using his heart as a coloring book. Magnus the Red in "A Thousand Sons" mentions casually destroying mountains while training with his brother Primarchs, Leman Russ pushed a Skyscraper over without any effort, Fulgrim has cut through a Wraithlore constructed of Wraithbone casually and effortlessly, and all Primarchs, even Lorgar, weakest among their number, can cut through hundreds of Marines without stopping and without being injured (Mortarion also proved capable of this). Horus in Horus Rising is barely pricked by a monomolecular bolt (Which also appeared to be sheathed in some sort of power field) fired by some weird crossbow-esque firearm, these things were able to go through the chestplate of Power Armour, through the Marine, out the back of the armour, and then through the wall behind said Marine. It barely stuck into Horus. Oh, Angron and Corax have both taken Lascannon fire to the chest without injury, Lascannons being powerful anti-tank weaponry. Compare this to a Marine wielding a chainsword, a monomolecular blade, whom can't penetrate heavy tank armour, and is unreliable for killing foes in power armour. Basically, this is the manner of foe Draigo physically overpowered, and dominated. Oh wait, no, sorry, that's a Primarch, Mortarion was a Daemon Primarch, which is even stronger.



It is apparently in Hereticus, the last book. Still on Malleus though.

Oh, Cherubael and that other Daemonhost whose name I forget could also physically catch bolter rounds, and do so casually. This is shown for Cherubael at near the end of Xenos. Here is the quote for the other Daemonhost, catching them at the start of chapter 15:

"The thing, Prophaniti, was stepping towards me. I shot at it with my storm-gun, watching in horrid
fascination as it caught the white hot bolt rounds out of the air in its outstretched hands, like a man
idly catching slow-tossed racquet balls."

It catches the storm bolter's rounds out of the air almost lazily.

Now Cherubael, from chapter 26 of Xenos:

"The daemonhost swung around suddenly as voices called out from lower down the roof. Brother-
Captain Cynewolf was clambering up out of the blast hole, flanked by Midas and another
Deathwatcher carrying the limp form of Titus Endor.
Cynewolf raised his storm bolter and fired at the blank-eyed man.
Cherubael reached out and caught the glowing shells, plucking them out of the air."

So if mere bound Daemonhosts are that fast, Kaldor Draigo definitely is.



Try to at least display a cursory knowledge of the verse.

Daemonettes have a latent mind-altering aura about them, at all times, that makes temptation much easier for them. Beyond that, even entering the shrine of a Chaos Cultist can mindrape you, even Fulgrim, a Primarch who has powerful psychic defenses, was eventually mentally corrupted and controlled by Chaos. Draigo is the best of an Order who have never fallen to Chaos, never been "mindraped" if you will. Their utter resistance to it allows them to not only do shit like wield a Daemon weapon without being mentally dominated by the Daemon inside, but even overpower the Daemon's presence, keeping it from corrupting others. Like Castellan Crowe does. Draigo is privy to all the mindrapey secrets of the Purifier order, due to being Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. Oh yeah, and he solved the Infinite Labyrinth and gazed upon the Inevitable City, before destroying it. Both, being the product of Tzeentch, are able to mindrape you to insanity. Or you could explode in a shower of gore. It varies.

And seriously, his job is fighting Daemons, who employ mindrape more often than anything else. no expression Are you really suggesting he'd be so easily susceptible to the mind powers of a much inferior sorcerer like Kain?



Yes actually, Grey Knight Terminator armour weighs 880 pounds according to the roleplaying game Dark Heresy. A Space Marine outside of Power Armour has IIRC never had an official weight given, but they are about six to seven hundred pounds on average going by their height and build, they can be more if they are a particularly large marine obviously. I'm not sure how big Draigo is, though he has higher S and T than the average Marine.

Oh, and the ton range is Raziel's TK strike level? Don't recall that. Not that it matters. Since Draigo with his psychic abilities annihilated a city.



It's true though. I am much smarter than you.

Pressure is force per unit area, that's not exactly a hard concept to grasp. I am well aware that wielding a thinner edged blade will allow you to more easily cut something. Don't insult my vastly grander intelligence.

Tempt is comparible to mindrape concerning Chaos because it explicitly is.

The Garden of Nurgle's size directly correlates with Nurgle's power. He burned it to ash. Therefore, he crippled a Chaos God. rolling on floor laughing

On a serious note (Because although that is true, I like to really hope that Ward is not stupid enough to make Draigo more powerful personally than a Chaos God), the Garden of Nurgle's size varies. But Draigo is the only being to ever burn down the Garden of Nurgle. The might of the other Chaos God's armies have only ever forced the Garden to recede off of the territories of the other Gods, never destroy it. Draigo has accomplished what armies of Daemons could not.

Burning thought
Originally posted by FinalAnswer


How would you know? theyve never tried have they? Further, Kaldors context states he was cursed, cursed to forever walk the warp, cursed by the Demon prince he first slew no less, so the fact hes there and the fact the Dark Gods amusingly reform all their creations that he attempts to destroy implies their not too troubled to trying to destroy him even if they could.

A lot of powers are standard amonst a lot of enemies, doesn ot mean you can simply "assume" things, assume that they attempted to use mind control, the document only mensions temptation.

I am taking Kains durability solely from a cutscene based on Raziels feats from a cutscene. One person claims its not nearly as impressive based on poor comparisons, its still the pressure level several times the planets core regardless of how they shirk it off. Far more pressure than any feat Daigo has shown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc_HM2vaTfU#t=2m6s

I did not make that up though, or assume. Your the only one assuming, I am getting this from the wiki that states the demons are often making mistakes in fighting him, none of them used vast "reality warping" or "super strength!", Kaldors main victory in the beginnign was because the the demon left himself open.

Originally posted by NemeBro


By matter of fact I am exceeindly smart on this subject which you have shown wanting, your gauge of powers is based on titles and assumptions. I am sure "kaldor" is very "cool" but being portrayed as powerful is not the same as showing power.

If thats the passage then thats the same thing I read on the wiki, wheres the part where he fought it bare handed? You do realise the sundered blade hes carrying around was the weapon he slew the last demon with, e.g. not completly useless in a fight, combined with psychic powers. Theres no mension of the bloodthirster puting up much of a fight.

Ok so I understand your using another Primarch to claim a different ones feats which is interesting, but do you have a quote for this? I want to see a quote of what actually happened in his fight with Mortarian, with Mkar it shattered his weapon but left itself open, allowing Kaldor a killing blow. Assuming Mkar, which is weaker than Mortarian can send Kaldor to his knees and hope for a lucky strike, Mortarians cirumstances are likely even more unsusal unless hes not as strong as other primarchs.

Although Cherubael is fast and powerful, he does a lot of ridiculous things no single man could do and on top of that, hes hardly just a "deamon host", hes a Deamon prince or used to be, I dont see how you saying Kaldor is definatly his equel in speed just because you claim hes a "higher scale" of power, thats power scaling of the most illogical kind. Hes still just a space marine in Terminator armour, claiming he has reflexes to catch roudns out of the air is unfounded.

Your using "corruption" and "mind control" as if their the same thing. having actually finished Eisenhorn, which is all about the slow corruptions of Chaos I probably know more than you, also have you played Dawn of War 2? or Chaos rising? it also has major influences of Chaos corruption, so does the Omnibus....their not "mind control", not evn comparable. If I was saying Kain was going to slowly corrupt them with thoughts of heresy then you would have a point, this is not the case.

Kain can do something that nobody you can prove has tried on Kaldor. So far you have proven Kaldor will be immune to "inspire hate" which does alter/corrupt the mind into thinking something else.

So vaguely in the ton range then? not that impressive, as I said Raziels in the ton range and Kaldor "annhilating" a city, when? If your talking about the Keeper of secrets one, this seems to happen as a side effect of him defeating the Keeper, Kaldor still had to find his way around the labyrinth.

Then why are you argueing things based on size, or area of their blast radius if you know the larger the area, the less pressure? since force= F/SA? comparing large spread destruction to pinpoint blows by swords is folly.

Not really, its corruption. Hence why "holding onto your faith" is something both Uriel ventris in Omnibus and Eisenhorn in his book refer to.

Erm no, he did not cripple a Chaos God, if you know the story Nurgle "amusingly" just repaired it.

Also I think your assuming he destroyed the entire thing, when "burning the garden of nurgle" does not refer to the whole thing. Hell even Kain has pyrokinesis.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Burning thought
By matter of fact I am exceeindly smart on this subject which you have shown wanting, your gauge of powers is based on titles and assumptions. I am sure "kaldor" is very "cool" but being portrayed as powerful is not the same as showing power.

BT you are exceedingly smart on no subject. You have yet to earn the right to condescend as I have.

Kaldor isn't cool in any way, shape, or form. If you knew how to read, you would have picked up my feelings on him.



Using a broken sword isn't much difference from using no sword at all.

I'm sorry, are you trying to imply the Bloodthirster didn't fight back? You can't actually be stupid enough to assume something so baseless.



"Alone
and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's
bodyguard. strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves
Geronitan 's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though
Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he
can enter the mortal realm once more."

M'kar was pretty heavily amplified by a massive Warp Rift when he fought Draigo the second time. Before that, Draigo crushed him when he was a rookie.

The only Primarch known to be definitely weaker than usual is Lorgar, and in his case it was mostly a matter of attitude. Mortarion is also noted to be very resilient, even for a Primarch. Fitting for a Daemon Prince of Nurgle. Mortarion was still able to very easily cut through Terminator Armour, cutting a swathe through Terminators without being slowed down. Terminator armour is largely immune to the monomolecular blades of a chainsword wielded by a Space Marine, even normal Power Armour is very resistant to it.



Cherubael isn't worth the hair on Mortarion's rotten nuts. Draigo has bested Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons, physically fighting them no less, in the Warp. Oh, and Cherubael got storm bolter shells while being bound, did he not? Aka, not at full power? Oh, and since a Space Marine in Power Armour in First Heretic blocks bolter rounds as well... Yeah. Oh, and an Inquisitor can do it in the game Inquisitor. You totally suck for not remembering when this apparently happened in Eisenhorn by the way. JUST SAYING. estahuh

Draigo has to physically fight much worse things than Cherubael.



I'm not going to actually lower myself to proving something that should be obvious, namely that if Lords of Change can't control the mind of Grey Knights, Kain can't. Draigo is utterly immune to the mind altering powers of Chaos. You can try to make up some arbitrary difference between "mind altering" and "mind control" if you want to, but I will just ignore such idiotic statements when they come up.



What is that "something" by the way? Because you have yet to specify exactly what Kain will do.



I can't help but notice you haven't proved shit.

Uh, no, you have it backwards. Draigo brought the Inevitable City tumbling down on top of the Lord of Change.

"At the gates of the Inevitable
City, the Lord of Change M'kachen offered Draigo a path
homewards, but in reply the Grey Knight smote the city walls
and left the bird-Daemon entombed amongst the ruins."

Though upon seeing the passage again, it was not necessarily the whole city. Not that it matters, Draigo's psyker might can destroy the Garden of Nurgle, which is larger than any city.



What claim of mine are you referencing here?



I don't think you really get what I mean.

When a Bloodthirster comes through the Warp, and releases a wave of hatred upon the planet, mindraping them to revel in mindless slaughter, the Grey Knights are expected to be immune.

And they are.

"Aurellian marched forwards, the Grey
Knights following in disciplined groups,
their Nemesis weapons held before them.
Waves of bloodlust broke against them,
but their souls were hardened to resist
such petty evils and not a man amongst
them faltered in his stride."

Mere Brother Captains and Terminators were immune to the bloodlust-inducing wave sent forth by Angron and twelve Bloodthirsters. The Grey Knights were immune to said power.



With all due respect, I actually have the Grey Knights codex, I'm not just reading a wiki, so maybe you shouldn't claim shit when you don't know what you're talking about.

"He
unleashed sanctified flame again amongst the writhing
jungles of Nurgle's domain, and for a long time the gusting
Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured
screaming of daemonic vegetation."

It was burnt down for a "long time," and all that was left was a "charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of daemonic vegetation."

"Nurgle's
mighty jungle regrew from the ashes"

Nurgle's mighty jungle, not a piece of it, then later regrew from the ashes.

"That anything could exist in the Realm
of Chaos, yet be utterly immune to the will of the Chaos
Gods, was a fresh impossibility in a domain riven with the
impossible. Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo,
then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory."

Apparently Draigo is immune to the will of the Chaos Gods, and they can't vanquish Draigo. Sure, he can get no lasting victory, but that's pretty irrelevant. Kain isn't growing back from the ashes after Draigo destroys him.



According to the text he destroyed the whole thing.

You're the one assuming things based on a wiki. Stop it.

Burning thought
Originally posted by NemeBro
BT you are exceedingly smart on no subject. You have yet to earn the right to condescend as I have.

Kaldor isn't cool in any way, shape, or form. If you knew how to read, you would have picked up my feelings on him.



Using a broken sword isn't much difference from using no sword at all.

I'm sorry, are you trying to imply the Bloodthirster didn't fight back? You can't actually be stupid enough to assume something so baseless.



"Alone
and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's
bodyguard. strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves
Geronitan 's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though
Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he
can enter the mortal realm once more."

M'kar was pretty heavily amplified by a massive Warp Rift when he fought Draigo the second time. Before that, Draigo crushed him when he was a rookie.

The only Primarch known to be definitely weaker than usual is Lorgar, and in his case it was mostly a matter of attitude. Mortarion is also noted to be very resilient, even for a Primarch. Fitting for a Daemon Prince of Nurgle. Mortarion was still able to very easily cut through Terminator Armour, cutting a swathe through Terminators without being slowed down. Terminator armour is largely immune to the monomolecular blades of a chainsword wielded by a Space Marine, even normal Power Armour is very resistant to it.



Cherubael isn't worth the hair on Mortarion's rotten nuts. Draigo has bested Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons, physically fighting them no less, in the Warp. Oh, and Cherubael got storm bolter shells while being bound, did he not? Aka, not at full power? Oh, and since a Space Marine in Power Armour in First Heretic blocks bolter rounds as well... Yeah. Oh, and an Inquisitor can do it in the game Inquisitor. You totally suck for not remembering when this apparently happened in Eisenhorn by the way. JUST SAYING. estahuh

Draigo has to physically fight much worse things than Cherubael.



I'm not going to actually lower myself to proving something that should be obvious, namely that if Lords of Change can't control the mind of Grey Knights, Kain can't. Draigo is utterly immune to the mind altering powers of Chaos. You can try to make up some arbitrary difference between "mind altering" and "mind control" if you want to, but I will just ignore such idiotic statements when they come up.



What is that "something" by the way? Because you have yet to specify exactly what Kain will do.



I can't help but notice you haven't proved shit.

Uh, no, you have it backwards. Draigo brought the Inevitable City tumbling down on top of the Lord of Change.

"At the gates of the Inevitable
City, the Lord of Change M'kachen offered Draigo a path
homewards, but in reply the Grey Knight smote the city walls
and left the bird-Daemon entombed amongst the ruins."

Though upon seeing the passage again, it was not necessarily the whole city. Not that it matters, Draigo's psyker might can destroy the Garden of Nurgle, which is larger than any city.



What claim of mine are you referencing here?



I don't think you really get what I mean.

When a Bloodthirster comes through the Warp, and releases a wave of hatred upon the planet, mindraping them to revel in mindless slaughter, the Grey Knights are expected to be immune.

And they are.

"Aurellian marched forwards, the Grey
Knights following in disciplined groups,
their Nemesis weapons held before them.
Waves of bloodlust broke against them,
but their souls were hardened to resist
such petty evils and not a man amongst
them faltered in his stride."

Mere Brother Captains and Terminators were immune to the bloodlust-inducing wave sent forth by Angron and twelve Bloodthirsters. The Grey Knights were immune to said power.



With all due respect, I actually have the Grey Knights codex, I'm not just reading a wiki, so maybe you shouldn't claim shit when you don't know what you're talking about.

"He
unleashed sanctified flame again amongst the writhing
jungles of Nurgle's domain, and for a long time the gusting
Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured
screaming of daemonic vegetation."

It was burnt down for a "long time," and all that was left was a "charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of daemonic vegetation."

"Nurgle's
mighty jungle regrew from the ashes"

Nurgle's mighty jungle, not a piece of it, then later regrew from the ashes.

"That anything could exist in the Realm
of Chaos, yet be utterly immune to the will of the Chaos
Gods, was a fresh impossibility in a domain riven with the
impossible. Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo,
then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory."

Apparently Draigo is immune to the will of the Chaos Gods, and they can't vanquish Draigo. Sure, he can get no lasting victory, but that's pretty irrelevant. Kain isn't growing back from the ashes after Draigo destroys him.



According to the text he destroyed the whole thing.

You're the one assuming things based on a wiki. Stop it.

Apart from being your superior on most subjects you argue of course I think you meant to add.

Oh yes it is, your trying to ignore things to make others sound more impressive, he plunged the broken sword into the heart of the previous demon he slew, who did break his weapon...so yes its still a useful weapon.

No, just that it didnt do anything impressive your claiming or implying for it, what feats does the bloodthirster have anyway?

I dont know about crushed, I would say more he got knocked to the ground, had his weapon smashed and then used said weapon to impale the demon while it left itself open.

So this whole primarch thing is pretty vague then, we dont know how strong Mortarian is since theres no feat for him, saying "well hes on the level of typical primarchs" is the same as what Fenris is refering to in the DMC vs Carnifex thread, illogical to assume any two beings are necesserily alike. It seems to me, based on your quote he beat Terminators and then defeated Mortarians bodyweight. Nothing "mountain busting" here....

Whats that based on? I cant see Daigo knocking Cherbuael to the ground so easily when Cherubael can not only fly and rip apart Titans but also react to bullets, it seems Mortarian cant do any of those things, your using power scaling again I assume to claim this? Cant remember it if it was years ago dear boy, I remember certain things though including most of what Eisenhorn accomplishes is context base.

I dont know about "worse", ive yet to see a Bloodthirster destroy a Titan with ease, nor leave himself open to be impaled like Draigos famous first fight, most of these texts your giving me are vague.

It never tried though, it tried in the text to "tempt" him, why do you think the text would state"tempt with riches and freedom" if it could just mind control him? or better yet, not even mension it tried? your filling in the gaps, which is what you do with most vague texts to make characters seem stronger than they are. You can ignore what you like, your never going to be able to compare corruption to full mind control.

Mind rape, e.g. go directly into his mind and control it, either spiritually or mentally.

yes I thought so, hyping a feat again based on assumption, nothing about the whole city and your passage here also states all he did was "offer" him something, Kains offering him nothing. Your comparing me offering you a jaffa cake to me stuffing it down your throat.

Everything from argueing how large an object a Krak missle can damage, to how large an area (city) a Titan can destroy etc. How "big" the Garden of nurgle is.

Yes, thats similiar to the Nightbringers wave of "death and despair" when Uriel faced it, thats not a mind rape, thats more an influence. That, is as I said before like a planetary inspier hate that Kain has access to and what Kain as I stated could not successfully employ on Draigo. But any marine, based on the nightbringer can ignore these influences with enough morale boosting from nearby captains or with enough faith, even Parnasus or w/e his name is spelt had little faith in himself and the cause but could stomach the nightbringers powers. Ive seen you say the Nightbringer is arguably the most powerful force in Warhammer 40k, or one of the top ones.

Your stateing things I alreayd know and the wiki fills in your gaps. Like you never said here how nurgle reforms them. And since when is that the whole jungle? just because it says "the jungle reforms" does not immediatly state the whole thing. If I said companies were destroying the Amzon rainforest and that the jungle would eventually regrow, thats no hint on English language that they have destroyed the entire rainforest.

FinalAnswer
BT, ****ing Alaric from the Grey Knight's omnibus resisted a Tzeentch demon's efforts to mind rape him into insanity, while a collar of Khorne nullified his psychic wards. Furthermore, there mere presence of one of the most powerful daemon princes of Tzeentch would mind**** people into insanity and/or service to Tzeentch. Alaric banished him.

Alaric is a mere justicar.

Kain is not mindraping Draigo.

Burning thought
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
BT, ****ing Alaric from the Grey Knight's omnibus resisted a Tzeentch demon's efforts to mind rape him into insanity, while a collar of Khorne nullified his psychic wards. Furthermore, there mere presence of one of the most powerful daemon princes of Tzeentch would mind**** people into insanity and/or service to Tzeentch. Alaric banished him.

Alaric is a mere justicar.

Kain is not mindraping Draigo.

I dont know that omnibus but I bet if I read it I would find a ton of context your not telling me, plus the feat for Alaric not for Draigo you just mentioned. Also, Ive yet to see something impressive for these Demons tbh, you keep saying "zomg Bloodthirsters! Zomg! Lord of change!" but all your telling me is that fairly regular marines can deal with it even in the worst situations and I myself have read of Eisenhorn and ultramarines dealing with it in the Ultramarines omnibus/eisenhorn respectfully.

He is until Driago actually has feat beyond resisting temptation, I can resist temptation as well, for example I didnt scoff a cheeseburger when it was easily within my grasp.

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by NemeBro
A Nemesis Force Weapon, one forged from the axe of a Bloodthirster.

Kaldor Draigo has bested a Daemon Primarch alone and unaided.

He has walked into the Garden of Nurgle, and burned it to the ground.

He has fought Bloodthirsters in the Warp, where they are at their most powerful, and killed them... Bare-handed.

He solved the Infinite Labyrinth of Tzeentch, and smashed the Inevitable City to rubble, killing the Lord of Change inside it as well.

Also, Titus defeated a Daemon Prince that wasn't fully awakened.

Draigo is easily the single most powerful man in the Imperium, and possibly the most powerful psyker there as well. Are all of these Deigo feats listed in the codex? What's the page number?

mechagoomba
Its all on Draigo's fluff page Blax.

It starts on page 38 and continues to page 39 of the 5th edition grey knights codex.

Brother-Captain Stern is the only REAL grey knight hero.

RE: Blaxican
Thanks. I'll take a look at it when I get home.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Burning thought Oh yes it is, your trying to ignore things to make others sound more impressive, he plunged the broken sword into the heart of the previous demon he slew, who did break his weapon...so yes its still a useful weapon.

Not particularly. Would argue his psychic powers are more useful. Not that it matters, physically fighting a Bloodthirster in the Warp is still vastly more impressive than anything Kain has done.



The average Bloodthirster can cut a Leman Russ in half, or hamstring a Carnifex with a single blow. They have washed entire planets in a sea of madness-inducing gore. This is what they can do in the Materium. They are far stronger in the Warp.



See, stop using your interpretation of a wiki as evidence. That was the second time Draigo fought M'kar.

"The tide was only
turned by their daring strike against M'kar's Warp-fortress. It
was here that Kaldor Draigo, a freshly ennobled BattleBrother,
made a name for himself. It was Draigo who dealt
the deathblow to M'kar, and so cast the daemonic horde
back into the Warp, but the Daemon clung to life long
enough to place a vengeful curse upon his slayer."

The first time they fought, Draigo is not mentioned having any difficulty with casting M'kar into the Warp at all.



Yeah no. Mortarion could cut through armies of Terminators easily, as he did in Fulgrim. He is noted to be incredibly resilient, even for a Primarch. Compare this to guys like Leman Russ, or Konrad Curze. Leman Russ landed in a volcano and crawled out. Curze plummeted through the planet of Nostramo's crust, and fell all the way through the Mantle into the planet's core, he proceeded to start crawling out. Oh, and you know what? They did this as infants. no expression Mortarion is described as resilient even for a Primarch, and is no infant.

And yes, I will use the feats for other Primarchs, beings Mortarion does in fact equal. The only Primarch noticeably weaker than the others is Lorgar.



Lol. Cherubael is a mere Daemon Prince, at best. Mortarion is a Daemon Primarch, the most favored Daemon Prince of Nurgle. React to bullets? Please, Primarchs can move so fast Space Marines, who have been able to react to bolter fire, can't perceive their movements, and can cut through swaths of them in moments. Oh, and Leman Russ physically destroyed a Titan at one point, fun fact. Beyond that, all Primarchs had powerful psychic defenses, rendering them immune to the vast majority of psykers, the only psykers ever shown to be capable of harming a Primarch are Magnus the Red, a Primarch himself, and the Emperor himself. The psykers of the Thousand Sons could do nothing to stay Leman Russ.



A Bloodthirster in the Warp is much more powerful than a Titan, and beyond that Mortarion, a Daemon Primarch, is as well. Primarchs have physically destroyed Titans, Leman Russ in particular. Oh, and Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus when fighting were explicitly described as capable of destroying the armour of a Titan.



Oh you, I fill in no gap. "Seduction" concerning Slaanesh is explicitly a mentally dominating effect, and a soul dominating one as well.

"On a journey through the
Whispering Meadows, six sisters, the chosen handmaidens of
Slaanesh, sought to tempt Draigo with promises of glory,
power and all the myriad riches desired by mortal flesh and
spirit. but their words could find no purchase upon his soul,
and he scattered the Daemonettes' dismembered remains
amongst the alabaster grasses."

No purchase upon his soul indeed.

Why can't I? Especially since the corruption of Chaos is far superior to pathetic pussy mind control from Kain.

Every single Grey Knight has psychic mental wards to block out mind-affecting attacks. Your assertion that Kain can affect his mind with the pathetic mind control at his disposal is a funny guy.



An arbitrary difference you are imposing to give Kain an advantage. No one is fooled by your Uncle Tomfoolery.

Oh this reminds me.

"Yet advanced t~chnology is the least of the weapons in the
Grey Knights' armoury. Daemons are not creatures of science,
but beings of the darkest myth and madness. To battle such
creatures and emerge victorious, a warrior must be steeped in
that same madness; he must embrace the sorceries of the
Warp and so battle the Daemon with its own weapons. No
ordinary human psyker could hope to do this, for even the
attempt would leave his mind ravaged and corrupted beyond
salvation. Yet a Grey Knight can not only endure such trials,
but thrive amongst them. His strength lies not in martial
might alone, but also in his mind."

"For even the attempt would leave his mind ravaged and corrupted beyond salvation."

But not in the case of a Grey Knight.

Oh and some more!

"To this end, each Grey
Knight is an accomplished psyker, trained to channel his
mental energies into the halo of protedive wards known as
the Aegis. and an array of formidable battle-sorceries."

Mind control isn't happening. Find another tactic.



The text still imply it was the majority of the city, the tumbled walls all righting themselves. Not that it matters, Draigo doing that is in fact a better feat than Kain has.



When you consider those things can destroy things that can withstand greater pressure than your ever so loved "Earth's core" feat, yes, it is very relevant.



Please try to get the context right. In that, the Nightbringer was massively starved and weakened when Uriel freed it, the Deceiver having given its tomb away to his enemies before it went to sleep, leading to a fleet attempting to destroy it. Though they were unsuccessful, they were able to banish the bulk of its power which was stored in some weapon to the Warp, beyond its reach, which it would have fed off of to survive its long entombment. It was on the brink of extinction throughout the millenia, the reason it fled Pavonis, where Uriel encountered it, was to feed on stars to regain some of its power.

And what the hell is your point? That the average Marine is resistant to mind-affecting powers? I completely agree, they are. The Grey Knights more-so.

Stop creating some arbitrary difference between mindrape and "influence."

NemeBro
The Garden reforms slowly. I don't know what your point is. That would be like trying to discredit someone demolishing a skyscraper because it gets rebuilt.

And the text makes it evident it was the whole jungle, since "for a long time the gusting Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of daemonic vegetation."

It's obvious it was destroyed utterly.

Burning thought
Originally posted by NemeBro


Err how exactly, you dont even know what the bloodthirster did and so far youve no feats for said bloodthirster. It was a broken blade that was used as a killing weapon earlier, nuff said, plus psychic powers as well.

And how is that impressive? their never portrayed as fast in the fictions I have read/seen them in. Cutting a tank in half vs Kains 3x earth core pressures? goodluck, what a Bloodthirster seems to be is just a large, axe wielding demon with some strength behind it, nothing special.

It just says Draigo dealt the death blow, its ambigious on any details.

How the hell does he equel them if a new Chapter master can just smash through his guard and knock him to the floor to carve his heart out without the source not even stateing anything of note from Mortarian himself, considering your using others to gauge Mortarians feats and the guy apprently still wears armour iirc you said before so he cant be that durable. Your automatically assuming Kaldors strong because he did this, when facts suggest him being still a large bloke in Term armour so Mortarian could just be a poor fighter.

Hes still a Deamon prince, favoured or no Cherubael has feats at the moment Mortarian does not have and how is that impressive? not necesserily agile or quick marines vs plucking bullets out of the air? not comparable, Cherbubael is faster here....

I would like to see the basis on this, show me feats for Bloodthirsters and then prove the one Kaldor fought actually did what your claiming. Two guys not in this thread also thats small compared to the actual "easily destroiyng a Titan" that Cherubael does.

Again, read the text, it says TEMPT, look up the defintion, theres notihng to do with forcefully mind raping someone or overthrowing their mind or soul.

I like how you claim that while listing countless people who can resist it, corruption is not the same as mind raping, not even close.

Hardly arbitrary when their completly different. Again your texts speak of corruption again, Kains not corrupting anyone. Your also missing the fact most of this is a protection against a very specific power, sorcery or "warp" magic, not a purely mental assault. If Kain was trying to use warp powers or corruption you would have an argument but you dont,and I am just having fun, Kain does not need to mind control this guy to win, so far he just needs his trusty claws.

No, nothing alike. Breaking some walls vs pressures equel to the center of the earth, not close at all unless your trying to imply tossing these walls into the core of the planet will have no effect on them, you wont be able to prove it though.

But they cant, you cant prove any of this at all. Earth core pressure is beyond spreading explosions or destroying tanks, your claiming these vehicles, buildings etc can be placed inside a planets core without consequence.

laughing the difference is massive. Me convincing you to actually use facts is an influence assuming I could make you realise your "assumptions" and implications from power scaling are useless. Thats the power your mentioning, Kains counter is me leaping through your screen and beating your ass to the floor and submitting to my will. This is even more relevent example considering you know my English might would have you running in terror.

The difference is even more unique with Kain because you would know your being beaten and it would take some time, mind rape is undetectable and happens pretty much instantly.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The Garden reforms slowly. I don't know what your point is. That would be like trying to discredit someone demolishing a skyscraper because it gets rebuilt.

And the text makes it evident it was the whole jungle, since "for a long time the gusting Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of daemonic vegetation."

It's obvious it was destroyed utterly.

How do you know it was slow? and a skyscraper is gaugable, burning down plagues and rotten plants? not really....

No, not at all. Your quote there would be true no matter how much Diago burnt as long as he turned it to charcoal, what argument or basis do you possess that would imply nobody else who has any basic fire attacks could not do the same, burning these fungal growths?

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know that omnibus but I bet if I read it I would find a ton of context your not telling me, plus the feat for Alaric not for Draigo you just mentioned. Also, Ive yet to see something impressive for these Demons tbh, you keep saying "zomg Bloodthirsters! Zomg! Lord of change!" but all your telling me is that fairly regular marines can deal with it even in the worst situations and I myself have read of Eisenhorn and ultramarines dealing with it in the Ultramarines omnibus/eisenhorn respectfully.

He is until Driago actually has feat beyond resisting temptation, I can resist temptation as well, for example I didnt scoff a cheeseburger when it was easily within my grasp.

Not really. I encourage you, go read the Grey Knights Omnibus. Asides from the fact I'm right, I found it to be a good read.

Are you seriously implying that Alaric, a Justicar, which is basically a sargeant, has far superior mental defences then the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights? Do you realise how idiotic that sounds?

To be fair, Alaric knew the Daemon Prince's true name, which is pretty much an insta-banishment. Before that, said Daemon Prince tore through the Grey Knights.

In the book, Alaric requested a Sisters of Battle Canoness refrain from joining them in attacking the Daemon Prince, for fear that it would mind**** them into service to Tzeentch, something the Canoness admitted was a possibility. Ftr, Sisters are reputed for being some of the purest and most resistant humans to Chaos and the corruption and mind****ery it brings, with only the Grey Knights generally surpassing them in that regard.

Burning thought
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Not really. I encourage you, go read the Grey Knights Omnibus. Asides from the fact I'm right, I found it to be a good read.

Are you seriously implying that Alaric, a Justicar, which is basically a sargeant, has far superior mental defences then the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights? Do you realise how idiotic that sounds?

To be fair, Alaric knew the Daemon Prince's true name, which is pretty much an insta-banishment. Before that, said Daemon Prince tore through the Grey Knights.

In the book, Alaric requested a Sisters of Battle Canoness refrain from joining them in attacking the Daemon Prince, for fear that it would mind**** them into service to Tzeentch, something the Canoness admitted was a possibility. Ftr, Sisters are reputed for being some of the purest and most resistant humans to Chaos and the corruption and mind****ery it brings, with only the Grey Knights generally surpassing them in that regard.

You know what, it sounds good so I will probabily do just that.

Just as idiotic as saying a general or chief of staff of the American military arm can take more bullets than a regular private I imagine smile

Ah i see, context. Theres always context with these things.

I am sure the grey knights are great vs the corruption of Chaos and the warp in general, but Kain does not use those tools.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Burning thought
You know what, it sounds good so I will probabily do just that.

Just as idiotic as saying a general or chief of staff of the American military arm can take more bullets than a regular private I imagine smile

Ah i see, context. Theres always context with these things.

I am sure the grey knights are great vs the corruption of Chaos and the warp in general, but Kain does not use those tools.

Except, in this regard, the American military lacks magical powers and superhuman capabilities, and more experienced and higher ranking Grey Knights are generally more aged and experienced, as Justicars are superior to the common Grey Knight.

Nah ah bro. The daemon of Tzeentch dove into Alaric's mind in an effort to break his will and bend his mind, body and soul to him. Alaric resisted. Ergo, Alaric, a mere Justicar, possesses non-magical resistance to mind ****ery. It is only common sense that the Supreme Grand Master, the strongest and most experienced of Grey Knights, outshine Justicars in that regard.

Burning thought
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Except, in this regard, the American military lacks magical powers and superhuman capabilities, and more experienced and higher ranking Grey Knights are generally more aged and experienced, as Justicars are superior to the common Grey Knight.

Nah ah bro. The daemon of Tzeentch dove into Alaric's mind in an effort to break his will and bend his mind, body and soul to him. Alaric resisted. Ergo, Alaric, a mere Justicar, possesses non-magical resistance to mind ****ery. It is only common sense that the Supreme Grand Master, the strongest and most experienced of Grey Knights, outshine Justicars in that regard.

You miss the point that rank does not mean power or resistance, even if they are usually more aged and experiance.

"break his will", being something Kain does not even try and do. Also as you pointed out, context. he knew the deamons name also he had warp resistance i assume, Kain does not use the warp or its corruption. So far, all I hear of this grand master is that he got his ass knocked down and his weapon broken and played on the stupidity of his enemy, thats the only cold hard feat, the rest sounds like a vague grey knight version of Beowulf, a tale that sounds good but is vague at best.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Burning thought
You miss the point that rank does not mean power or resistance, even if they are usually more aged and experiance.

"break his will", being something Kain does not even try and do. Also as you pointed out, context. he knew the deamons name also he had warp resistance i assume, Kain does not use the warp or its corruption. So far, all I hear of this grand master is that he got his ass knocked down and his weapon broken and played on the stupidity of his enemy, thats the only cold hard feat, the rest sounds like a vague grey knight version of Beowulf, a tale that sounds good but is vague at best.

Except, in the case of the Grey Knights, it does. That would be like saying that a Chapter Master is no better then a tactical marine.

Not the same daemon, sorry if that confused you. This was not a daemon prince, just a typical daemon of Tzeentch, and at the time, Alaric was wearing a Collar of Khorne, which basically shut off all warp and psychic defences. Alaric resisted the daemon of Tzeentch with sheer willpower alone.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Burning thought
Err how exactly, you dont even know what the bloodthirster did and so far youve no feats for said bloodthirster. It was a broken blade that was used as a killing weapon earlier, nuff said, plus psychic powers as well.

**** yeah so we should assume this Bloodthirster was somehow much weaker than even a Bloodthirster in the Materium, despite being in the Warp. ****ing hell yeah.

No, we shouldn't. The entry for "Bloodthirster" in the Chaos Daemons codex says they can hamstring Carnifexes and cut a Leman Russ in half, these are feats applicable to any Bloodthirster.

Okay. Draigo kills Kain with a broken sword and psychic powers then. smile



Ka'Bhanda, after besting Sanguinius, flashed across the battlefield, cutting through and murdering 500 Blood Angel Terminators with his great axe, in an instant they all died. They died so suddenly the psychic backlash knocked Sanguinius out. That's faster than Kain.

Considering mining vehicles in 40k can survive just fine in the core of a planet, and the tanks are more durable, yeah.

A Bloodthirster is much stronger than Kain is, and beyond that wields an axe that is not only monomolecular, but is made of Warp matter, as such it slices through regular matter as though it were not there.

Draigo and other Grey Knights have physically fought such beasts, it is clear Draigo can harm Kain with his physical might (Which can be enhanced via psychic powers beyond normal levels) along with a monomolecular Force Weapon.



I merely provided proof that he bested him as a rookie, and he did.



"Large bloke in Terminator armour"? Because Mortarion has certainly never cut through swathes of those with effortless ease before.

Owait he has done that, he did it quite casually at the Dropsite Massacre, cutting through them with his Manreaper scythe.

Your hamfisted attempt to downplay is failing. The evidence clearly dictates Draigo is more than "some large bloke in Terminator armour."

Mortarion is more resilient than the average Primarch. Curze as a baby plummeted through a planet's crust into the core, and crawled out, unharmed. Mortarion is obviously more durable than Curze as a baby.



Angron was so fast Kharn of the World Eaters, uniquely one of the most capable and powerful melee specialists in Space Marine history, could not perceive his movements. One moment, Kharn was walking into a room. The next he realised he had moved back a few meters, was now slammed into a wall, with a broken arm. Angron did this while toying with Kharn of course. And once more, normal Space Marines and Inquisitors can react to bolter fire, blocking it with a power or force weapon. Stop this.

Frankly the argument of speed is ridiculous, to be blunt. The average Space Marine Scout, rookie marines, can easily pilot a Landspeeder, and pull off ttly radical tricks with it, a Landspeeder moving at a speed of 100 m/s. That's a better speed feat than any of Kain's (Though admittedly I may be forgetting one, am I? ).



Cherubael easily destroyed a Warlord Titan. Magnus the Red casually has destroyed two Titans that dwarf Warlord Titans, and beyond that can tear apart the surface of planets with his immense psychic powers. Now, Magnus is indeed the strongest Primarch, due to both being very physically powerful and capable, while also being the second greatest psyker in history (Only beaten by the Emperor). But when he fought Leman Russ, his blasts were unable to one-shot him like he could Titans. Mortarion is once more noted to be especially resilient compared to his brothers, it's the entire Death Guard's theme really. Beyond that, by this point, Mortarion isn't just a Primarch, he's a Daemon Prince, and as such stronger than his non-daemon self.



With Slaanesh it is. It always is. Also, a Slaaneshi Temple can mindrape you upon entering, and a Daemon Sword or Tome will attempt to control the minds of everyone around it. The Grey Knights walk into and destroy Chaos Temples regularly, and handle Daemon Weapons all the time. They handle objects known for mindrape. Yet according to you, they are not resistant. What a joke.



The difference is arbitrary. Like the difference between withstanding a punch to the face or a kick.



Considering mindrape tends to be fueled by psyker powers or sorcery... Yeah. See, now you're trying to downplay his resistance to mind-affecting powers by claiming that since the source of said powers is different, he won't be resistant. That's just a butthurt straw people grab onto when they don't have an argument. Also, if a mere Justicar without his mental wards can resist mind-control, the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights who is essentially completely immune to Chaos can. Lol. Trusty claws? Draigo is stronger than Kain is (Because he could physically fight an amplified Daemon Prince, said Daemon Prince, M'kar, capable of easily overpowering and defeating Marneus Calgar while M'kar was at base, Calgar being a bionic man with power fists for arms), while also possessing a sharper blade and possessing better reaction-time. In melee Kain dies immediately.



Well actually they probably could. Since they were made by a Chaos God. I can't prove that I'll admit, but I doubt something forged by a Chaos God is "brittle."

But beyond that, what you don't realise is that explosions and projectiles in general weaken as they continue to expand/go further or meet resistance. An explosion that blows up a bunker isn't merely possessing the power to destroy what the bunker is made of, if it incinerates the entire thing, it possessed the pressure to do so throughout that entire bunker, even as the blast weakened when it reached the outer levels of the bunker. I forget the term that describes this effect, but I digress.

Tossing baby Curze into the core of the planet did nothing to him, Draigo wounded a being more durable than he.



I'm telling you Draigo is stronger than Kain and has a blade that is not only thinner, but it ignores normal matter as though it were air.



Is this a joke? It's not a very funny one.



No. If a Justicar can resist mindrape, Draigo can.

NemeBro
Well considering the allied forces of the other Chaos Gods couldn't manage this feat, it's a pretty good gauge.

And I know it was slow because it was apparently burned down for a "long time." Oh, and it should be noted he has burned down the Garden multiple times.



Because they'd of died the moment they entered the single greatest concentration of Nurgle's poxes and plagues in the Warp and out of it for one. no expression That's a durability feat in of itself, Nurgle's Garden is brimming with the plagues and poxes he creates in the air, ones that corrupt and plague not only your body, but your soul. Draigo was immune.

Burning thought
Originally posted by NemeBro


Kains nowhere near as vulnerable as a dumbass deamon swinging around with an axe hoping to smash tanks. Also since when is cutting a lemen russ, the basic battle tank impressive? Also, your also assuming this one actually hit Kaldor. You cant claim that currently since theres no feat for it.

A quote would be nice, and this would be a feat for Ka'Bhanda then. Considering hes a primarch and ive heard Primarchs and less have also bested Greater deamons this isnt much of a showing for "general Bloodthirsters". Also a quick look and hes the "mightiest of Khorne's servants" so its not a general mook.

Erm wut? Just because a mineing vehicle can the tank can also? You forget I have read Warriors of ultramar, the miners and refineries on the gas giants could take far more damage than the actual imperial battleships so unless you have some feats of Tanks inside the planets core you dont have a case. Also, you would have to divide the pressure comparison down to how large the core is, because Kain can create 3x said pressure in the tip of his damn sword.

Thats nice but we have yet to hear of one slicing Kaldor or even hitting him.

Hes not going to get to do this though becuase while hes clunking around in armour Kains teleporting like wildfire and happily turning back and forth from mist to flesh.

define "bested" because if I walked up to a heavyweight champion who had been beaten by baseball bats prior and then delivered a knockout on the barely living bugger by your logic I have bested him, you have no details.

Hes clearly a shit fighter if a guy can run up and leap on him, your again assuming the positive for Kaldor rather than a negative for Mortarian, as I said the source does not even state that Mortarian did anything of note. You would have thought he could at least knock off a guys bodyweight even if he is in term armour but aprently not, seems their not as strong as we thought.

Your implying "blocking" is the same as actually percieving them as slow bodies, only Cherubael can pluck them from the air, this is far more than just blocking anything. Also Angron is a special case again, the Heart of blood in Dead sky black sun is also claimed to be the most powerful servant of Khorne but the struggle between him and the Omphalos w/e its called barely did any damage to their surroundings, he had to do whats essentially Kains bloodshower to defeat anyone.

I like how your comparing the speed feats of a marine in one of their fastest ground vehicles to Kain. Kains not as fast on foot no, but you forget he can teleport. Teleport>distance covered.

So to best Cherubael you have to choose arguably the most powerful Primarch in WH40k. That makes sense because the pressure exertion of a blast that covers a titan would only be doing a percentage of tat damage to a man, surface area. Theres a different between resistance and endurance, Nurgles followers survive vast damage because they "feel no pain" and some can regen. Also by the sounds of it, Deamon princes are not necesserily stronger than their former selves, for example Lemen russ and Magnus=mountain busting power, Mortarian= struggling to get a guy in term armour off him with no struggle to note unless your going to argue kaldor can also increase his weight to mountain+ levels.

Everything example youve brought up so far has nothing to do with mind raping but temptation, and I know slaanesh, temptation means what temptation means, alluring them with pleasure or promises. Also these others claims seem general, I have no doubt context is again relevent.

laughing not at all, the difference is the subtle influence to men trained to be against the Warp from the moment they are in the barracks, if not before vs an invisible and unkown force taking over your mind in seconds.

My argument is solid until you actually find me 1. a feat of a Deamon actually taking over a mind in seconds, not possession but an actual mind control and then 2. Kaldor taking this attack in text form, not you assuming "well he had to because woz there!". Until then, me extrapolating on the fact their resistance to specific corruption and sorcey of the warp is just as relevent. You cant claim Professor Xaviour would have trouble just because their trained to face warp magic and corruption, completly unrelated resistance. M'kar did overpower Kaldor, broke his weapon in the process and the guy had to hope for a mistake on the demons behalf, e.g. leaving himself open.

better reaction time? wut? how? Kain can react at fractions of a second, and this isnt just visual reaction, his brain works and decides actions in times where a human mind is still processing actions, so I hope you have feats of him reacting to someone who can teleport behind him, with a time disrupting aura around him and bore a hole into his head with his finger.

Yes because if something cant survive the core of a planet pressure it has to be brittle.

That also depends on the bunker, a bunker may not be designed to take a high powered bomb or orbital payload but glance off tank or rifle fire/grenades etc. So hitting it with an overkill, full body blast would break its own pressure resistance per area.

A being who did nothing of note in the source and Kaldor uses incredibly powerful weapons, I have no doubt the edge of a force blade or Nemesis weapon>Earth core pressure although this feat of yours for the baby is vague, I doubt he fell hundreds of KM through earth, rock and steel and then dropped onto the semi molten ball of iron that is the earths core so your claim is vague at best.

Whats that to do with anything? I never said Kain will glance off his blow with ease, although his weapon was broken by someone whos pressure did not harm Kaldor, who is still human more or less.

Its part joke and part trying to make you realise temptation or influence is not the same as turning someone into a puppet.

Why? just because hes a higher rank? erm Based on your logic he could also just banish the deamon in FinalAnswers example but as he pointed out the context, we know this man knew the deamons name, e.g. banishment time. Canon Context>your assumptions.


Originally posted by FinalAnswer



There are certainly major gear differences, based on the omnibus for the Ultramarines Marneus Calgar is simply described as a huge man. Yes their more experianced and wise, but their actual abilities often come from the more unique weapons like relic blades and artifacts that they can use.

So regular Deamons are pretty weak then, since a guy without any protection at all can resist. Even with a dampner he resisted, whats to say this deamon could have influenced anyone with its power? You seem to be assuming again that this is impressive for the Justicar, when it could jut be a poor feat for the Deamon who is the one apprently with all the advantages.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Well considering the allied forces of the other Chaos Gods couldn't manage this feat, it's a pretty good gauge.

And I know it was slow because it was apparently burned down for a "long time." Oh, and it should be noted he has burned down the Garden multiple times.



Because they'd of died the moment they entered the single greatest concentration of Nurgle's poxes and plagues in the Warp and out of it for one. no expression That's a durability feat in of itself, Nurgle's Garden is brimming with the plagues and poxes he creates in the air, ones that corrupt and plague not only your body, but your soul. Draigo was immune.

Not sure they could necesserily manage to get there or if they tried, perhaps they died of the poxes you mentioned.

So? Forests have been burned down multiple times and regrown...

So your now claiming an endurance feat, not a destruction feat now. Infact, most of the garden are apprently just ingrediants he puts into a giant Cauldren for plagues.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Burning thought
There are certainly major gear differences, based on the omnibus for the Ultramarines Marneus Calgar is simply described as a huge man. Yes their more experianced and wise, but their actual abilities often come from the more unique weapons like relic blades and artifacts that they can use.

So regular Deamons are pretty weak then, since a guy without any protection at all can resist. Even with a dampner he resisted, whats to say this deamon could have influenced anyone with its power? You seem to be assuming again that this is impressive for the Justicar, when it could jut be a poor feat for the Deamon who is the one apprently with all the advantages.




For normal marines, yes, gear is the most major difference. However, it is pretty evident that the more experienced marines are actually physically superior, just looking at their statline. They have more wounds, meaning they can suffer more injuries, they usually have higher I, meaning they have greater reaction time. Considering that the Grey Knights have psyker capabilities, that means their skill with psychic abilities increases with time as well. Captain and Chapter Masters appear to generally be physically superior to normal marines as well.

Not really, since we're talking about a frigging Grey Knight here, and even then, Alaric was nearly overcome. What's to say- ****, what the hell kind of question is that? You say you know plenty about 40k, yet you have to ask whether the daemon could influence anyone with its power? Mind powers are some of the most basic types of powers for daemons. You have NO reason to assume that it is a poor feat for the daemon, considering Grey Knights are DESIGNED to resist their powers. Stop baselessly assuming that the daemons of the warp are weak.

Also, fyi BT, the Daemon Prince that Alaric banished? Who was stated to be one of the most powerful servants of Tzeentch? Who previously tore through Alaric's squads of Grey Knights, which included Terminators? Yeah, he was banished before. In single combat, with a Grey Knight Grand Master.

ScreamPaste
This number is pascals:

18278965129358830.1


This one is also pascals, from a door.

46869141357330333708.2

Burning thought
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
For normal marines, yes, gear is the most major difference. However, it is pretty evident that the more experienced marines are actually physically superior, just looking at their statline. They have more wounds, meaning they can suffer more injuries, they usually have higher I, meaning they have greater reaction time. Considering that the Grey Knights have psyker capabilities, that means their skill with psychic abilities increases with time as well. Captain and Chapter Masters appear to generally be physically superior to normal marines as well.

Not really, since we're talking about a frigging Grey Knight here, and even then, Alaric was nearly overcome. What's to say- ****, what the hell kind of question is that? You say you know plenty about 40k, yet you have to ask whether the daemon could influence anyone with its power? Mind powers are some of the most basic types of powers for daemons. You have NO reason to assume that it is a poor feat for the daemon, considering Grey Knights are DESIGNED to resist their powers. Stop baselessly assuming that the daemons of the warp are weak.

Also, fyi BT, the Daemon Prince that Alaric banished? Who was stated to be one of the most powerful servants of Tzeentch? Who previously tore through Alaric's squads of Grey Knights, which included Terminators? Yeah, he was banished before. In single combat, with a Grey Knight Grand Master.

Yes, physically superior as in being larger to a slight degree. Calgar iirc is refered to as a "bear of a man", hes a large bloke basically with access to the best wargear you can name also your talking gameplay mechanics. Arguable, it sounds like they have access to set powers concerning psychic protection technology.

A grey knight with his abilities nulled by the khornate collar. I know in what I have read and played in games that corruption is their "basic" power, e.g. temptation, promises etc to Chaos, not mind control. Well this demon in particular fails on a guy whos protection is nulled by a Deamon artifact...so how is this Deamon even worth mentioning?

So? The one Kaldor defeated left itself open to be impaled by a broken sword, if anything Deamon princes are not all the same and so far I am unimpressed since leaving yourself open is a damn error in combat even a space marine probably wouldnt do.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This number is pascals:

18278965129358830.1


This one is also pascals, from a door.

46869141357330333708.2


Apprently you didnt even do any calculations on this and pulled 400 mil newtons from thin air. Your context if this is the "plasteel door ripping" feat is non existent, do you have a gauge on the difference between steel and plasteel, do you have any calculation overpowering the shutting mehanism for the door? not yet....so go and get them.

ScreamPaste
Ultimate tensile strength of regular steel: 400 MPA. IE, 400 000 000 N/m^2

Tadah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_tensile_strength

IE, we don't even need to look into Plasteel (which is far superior to our modern steel, used extensively in Mk IV power armour, and in the joins of Tactical Dreadnaught armour) because normal steel is good enough.

Also, I'm just leaving those there for people who care about this thread. I don't.

Happy debating. /Wave.

Burning thought
Thats actually making a meter of steel crack though, a full meter^2 of steel shattering is 400 million newtons. Smashing a door off its hinges? your breaking the mechanism, a mechanism that may even be a different material to the door or even not be designed to take certain stresses. Also how do you know its "far superior"?

Space marines could not open the heavy doors (meter thick) in Nightbringer protecting the oribtal weapon batteries, they just had to stand around knocking on the door until the Strike cruiser above bombarded it with magma bombs taking out the entire facility.

Based on that above, assuming the mechanism holding the door closed is similiar to regular door locks, the actual lock is only a few inches in size. So it would take far less force to snap it. So using basic dvision, if a full meter is 400 mil newtons, a few inches^2 would be 516128 Newtons worth of force to break.

That would be assuming the steel was completly unharmed beforehand, which half the time doors are broken or damaged or their power connections are burnt out before their smashed down by marines like my above example.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes, physically superior as in being larger to a slight degree. Calgar iirc is refered to as a "bear of a man", hes a large bloke basically with access to the best wargear you can name also your talking gameplay mechanics. Arguable, it sounds like they have access to set powers concerning psychic protection technology.

A grey knight with his abilities nulled by the khornate collar. I know in what I have read and played in games that corruption is their "basic" power, e.g. temptation, promises etc to Chaos, not mind control. Well this demon in particular fails on a guy whos protection is nulled by a Deamon artifact...so how is this Deamon even worth mentioning?

So? The one Kaldor defeated left itself open to be impaled by a broken sword, if anything Deamon princes are not all the same and so far I am unimpressed since leaving yourself open is a damn error in combat even a space marine probably wouldnt do.




Apprently you didnt even do any calculations on this and pulled 400 mil newtons from thin air. Your context if this is the "plasteel door ripping" feat is non existent, do you have a gauge on the difference between steel and plasteel, do you have any calculation overpowering the shutting mehanism for the door? not yet....so go and get them.

Gameplay mechanics have bearing in fluff, yes.

Uh, a Grey Knight's defence isn't limited to psychic wards alone. They go through years of mental discipline in order to be utterly immune to the temptations and powers of Chaos. Stop treating feats as if they don't matter. Said daemon would have broken most other men. On a Grey Knight, it met its match, though, as I said, it did nearly break Alaric. Also, corruption is usually accompanied by mind-altering powers, especially in the case of Slaanesh. And the daemon of Tzeentch made little offers towards Alaric, mostly he was just intent on destroying his will.

M'kar didn't leave himself open, he was preparing to finish Draigo off. Perhaps he didn't expect that a human he had just cast down to be able to suddenly ram a broken sword through his heart, especially considering that he was empowered by the warp at the time. Followers of Chaos tend to be arrogant like that. Or maybe that shit like that shouldn't happen. Either one.

Also, the example went over your head. A Grand Master killed one of the strongest of Tzeentch's servants in combat. Alaric could not replicate this, and would have died if he had not known about the daemon's name. As you see, the higher ranking members tend to be much more powerful then the lesser ones. And Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
M'kar didn't leave himself open, he was preparing to finish Draigo off. Perhaps he didn't expect that a human he had just cast down to be able to suddenly ram a broken sword through his heart, especially considering that he was empowered by the warp at the time. Followers of Chaos tend to be arrogant like that. Or maybe that shit like that shouldn't happen. Either one.


Ignore this shit.

M'kar, who was previously beaten by Draigo, and generally fights with guize like Calgar, was amped by the warp to be strong enough to fight toe to toe with Draigo, and proceeded to break his sword and nearly kill him. Preparing to kill him, Draigo used his unparalleld plot-fu to ram his broken sword through the warp-empowered M'kar and wreck his heart in one fell blow. And the entire context for M'kar leaving himself open is understandable, given how "Perhaps he didn't expect that a human he had just cast down to be able to suddenly ram a broken sword through his heart, especially considering that he was empowered by the warp at the time. Followers of Chaos tend to be arrogant like that. Or maybe that shit like that shouldn't happen. Either one." and has no merit on M'kar combat ability. How is that unimpressive?

NemeBro
Originally posted by Burning thought
Kains nowhere near as vulnerable as a dumbass deamon swinging around with an axe hoping to smash tanks. Also since when is cutting a lemen russ, the basic battle tank impressive? Also, your also assuming this one actually hit Kaldor. You cant claim that currently since theres no feat for it.

Ah yes, the patented BT downplaying, how adorable. Yes, let us ignore that Bloodthirsters are in fact not stupid, but are brilliant generals, excelling in all things that lead to bloodletting. Let us ignore that their physical might is many times greater than Kain's. Let us also ignore that their speed is far greater than what Kain has demonstrated as well. Let's ignore that their hides are so durable "only the mightiest of blows" can so much as dent them (This in a verse where monomolecular chainswords is standard-issue). Let us ignore that their martial prowess is virtually unmatched in the setting. Yes, a dumbass daemon. Oh, according to the Deathwatch Bestiary, a Bloodthirster can not only cleave a Leman Russ in half, but a super heavy tank as well.

And I'm not saying Draigo "LOLNOSELLS" Bloodthirster attacks, only that he, and even Grey Knights of lesser rank, can physically contend with them. Whether this is through sheer muscle or after amping their physique with their psychic abilities is irrelevant.



Uh, Ka'Bhanda isn't a Primarch. And he's also the only Greater Daemon to be bested by a Primarch but that's beside the point. Bloodthirsters in general are not general mooks, if you knew a single thing about the setting you'd know that. Ka'Bhanda being elevated to the "mightiest of Khorne's Bloodthirsters" is actually a fairly recent development, Ka'Bhanda was capable of that feat before fifth edition, where he was retconned into being the strongest Bloodthirster. Before that he was just a Bloodthirster, and two other Bloodthirsters had that title at two separate points, Skarbrand and An'ggrath. My source is the Visions of Heresy books. And nah, not gonna type out what happened, since I can't quote it.



I haven't read Warriors of Ultramar, and frankly I call bullshit on the mining vessels being able to take more damage than an Imperial Starship. The Earth's core is a summer breeze compared to a Volcano Cannon, or Nova Cannon, both being weaponry Super Heavies can survive.



Didn't claim he could flex his dick and no sell it. Only that he, and inferior Grey Knights (Shown when a Brother Captain bests a Bloodthirster personally, one that is accompanying Angron) have crossed blades with them one on one.



Yeah no, teleportation is not a substitute for far inferior speed, nor is misting. Draigo is much faster than Kain, the moment he reappears (Being a psyker, Draigo needn't actually see Kain), Kain will find a sword in his chest.



Stop assuming context that doesn't exist.



Yeah dawg I guess that means we should assume Wonderwoman's a weakling because Mongul can overpower her and throw her to the ground. You're assuming a negative feat for Mortarion, when the text clearly presents it as a positive feat for Draigo. Draigo besting him doesn't take away other Primarch feats, nor Mortarion's feat of cutting through armies with a scythe. Or the fact that he is directly stated to be incredibly resilient, even by Primarch standards.

"In contrast to the brute savagery of Angron, Mortarion, the Death Lord, killed with a grim efficiency, harvesting scores of loyalist lives with
every sweep of his terrifying war-scythe. His Death Guard fought with
grim tenacity. Where the traitor primarchs stood, none could live, the
loyalist assault breaking against them like the tide on immovable cliffs."

Yeah but he's obviously a poor fighter. What a laugh.



Stop taking the wording so literally. Grabbing them out of the air and deflecting them with a blade is a marginal difference. I'm not sure what you're talking about with the second part of your post, though it's not relevant at all, Angron is directly stated to be the most favored, powerful, and terrible of Khorne's servants. Ka'Bhanda is his mightiest Bloodthirster. Also, wiki only says "one of Khorne's favorite Daemons." Oh, and Angron isn't a "special case" in terms of Primarchs. The same thing happened when Lion El'Jonson, Primarch of the Dark Angels, fought Konrad Curze, Primarch of the Night Lords. One moment the two Primarchs were talking. The next Curze was roaring in pain while the Lion's sword was now drawn and jammed into his stomach. This is from the perspective of a Space Marine. Oh, and Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists, was able to move from "some distance away" over to Garro without a Space Marine, Garro, perceiving it, while Dorn punched Garro in the chest, knocking him on his ass. Dorn then states he held back, so as not to kill Garro, because Dorn was angry Garro would accuse his brother of betraying the Imperium, but was willing to hear his case.

Also, collateral damage, or lack of it, is not discrediting in terms of feats.



Way to completely miss the point. They have to have superhuman reaction-times to pilot a Landspeeder, it is directly stated that is why only Marines do so in combat. Kain can teleport, but he's so slow in comparison he wouldn't get a hit in anyway.

Oh yeah, and chapter 22 of Malleus, a heretical Inquisitor deflects rounds from a lasgun with his sword, while also being too fast in movement for humans to perceive. Eisenhorn dueled this man for an extended period of time.



Magnus could kill Cherubael with a thought. I mean that very literally, he could blast his soul into nothingness by willing it. And no, Magnus didn't just blow one up, he disintegrated it, with a hurricane of Warpfire. The first one anyway. The other one he effortlessly deflected its salvo, with a gesture crushed its arm into nothing, and then speared through its chest. And you missed the point, again... Point being that Magnus couldn't just "LOLOLOLEFFORTLESS" one-shot Leman Russ, even though he was more powerful. And what's your point on Nurgle followers? Mortarion was noted as being more resilient before he ever became a Daemon Prince, Nurgle just gave him incapability to feel pain and regeneration, while also boosting everything else about him. Oh and I guess he also can use Space AIDS in battle. And no, your argument is insane. A Daemon Prince is always stronger than he was as a mortal. Kaldor Draigo is just this powerful, possessing formidable physical and psychic strength. Stop trying to discredit Draigo by claiming it a negative feat for his opponents. It makes you look sad.

NemeBro
No you clearly don't. The Laer Sword in Fulgrim was able to mindrape an entire civilization of xenos into worshipping it and becoming douchebags, and forcing them to fight in its defense as well. It proceeds to do something similar to the Emperor's Children Legion.

Also... Dude a ****ing Daemonic rock in Eisenhorn could establish mind control over a planet of miners, forcing them to kill those not under its control. erm Mind control isn't working.



No, it is an arbitrary difference you spittled out to support a joke of an argument.



Daemon Rock did so. A rock. A Daemonblade will do so to anyone who picks it up who can't handle it, as well as those around it. In some cases, its reach is planetary, such as with the Laer Sword. Hell, even entering the temple it used to be in immediately mindraped everyone. Did they know they were being controlled by a Greater Daemon? No, because it's so subtle, that's what makes it powerful. If a Justicar can do it, so can Draigo, whose accomplishments and glories in the Grey Knights are canonically second to none, except perhaps Janus, the founder of the order. Shit, this argument is ****ing stupid, mere psykers can wrest control over the minds of others, as shown multiple times in Eisenhorn (Eisenhorn himself having this power), and the Lords of Change are the most powerful sorcerers in the galaxy. Draigo's job is to fight these things. He is the best at this job. And yes, M'kar overpowered him briefly, after they fought on equal terms for an extended period. And you ignore that M'kar was amped.

Oh, and I would be more reluctant to claim the same about Charles Xavier, not because his powers originate not from the Warp, but because he is a vastly more powerful telepath than Kain.



Human beings can react at fractions of a second, which is a vague description. Space Marine brains also have much faster reactions than human ones. Draigo is able to best Primarchs and Daemons whom warp time as a afterthought (Many Daemon Princes are Lords of Change can do this), while also being a Marine with much faster reactions than Kain in general. Kain is too weak to bore a hole into Draigo with his finger. A Marine with a chainsword, based on Titus moving the 171 ton artillery shell casually, outputs over ten thousand times more pressure than Raziel's dinky claws. A chainsword wielded by a Marine isn't able to cut through power armour efficiently, as shown in multiple novels, such as A Thousand Sons, and in the gameplay itself. Monomolecular chainswords wielded by Marines, when calced based on a casual showing, are ten thousand times more impressive than Raziel. Think about it. But of course, you will not.



Considering the things that walk the Realm of Chaos, yes, it's brittle.



That's kind of dodging the point entirely. Which is, that you need more pressure at the epicentre of the blast to annihilate a structure, than to cut it.



You can doubt whatever the hell you want, that's what the text states.

I'm not going to type out what Index Astartes says, since I can't copy and paste, but Lexicanum says the same thing.

"The child that would come to be known as Konrad Curze was first recorded as crashing through the surface and into the core of the night-shrouded world of Nostramo. The crust of Nostramo bore high quantities of the mineral adamantium, which provided the basis of the planet's immense mining and purifying industries"

What Lexicanum doesn't state is that his descent left a huge cratered scar in the Adamantium crust of Nostramo (Which was sealed off from the population of the planet out of fear), one which he then crawled out of after swimming through the molten metals of the core and mantle.



"Human more or less"? Their incredible feats of endurance and strength say otherwise, and beyond that, Draigo wears Terminator armour, as well as a Storm Shield. I am saying Kain can't hurt him.



It effectively is.



Name a single example of the leader of a military in 40k not being one of or the strongest combatant within it.

Calgar is the greatest warrior of the Ultramarines. Dante is the second greatest of the Blood Angels, edged out only by Chief Librarian Mephiston, who is a very special case. Logan Grimnar is the strongest Space Wolf (Except maybe Bjorn, a very powerful Dreadnought, is hard to say). Ghazghkuull is the strongest Ork in the galaxy. Farsight and Shadowsun, the former and current military leader of the Tau, are their greatest warriors. For examples.

But beyond that, Draigo is directly stated to have achieved more glory and honors than any GK in history save maybe Janus. Draigo could very much banish said Daemon, which was bested in personal combat by a Grand Master. Draigo has defeated Daemons in the Warp, where such "context" doesn't apply, since you are not banishing them, and names have no power over them there.



He's like 50% mechanical. no expression And beyond that was overpowered and beaten up by M'kar. Who Draigo matched blow for blow when M'kar was amplified by a massive Warp Rift.



Stop assuming the feat is a bad one for the Daemon when it's a good one for Alaric. Not one Grey Knight, ever, has fallen to Chaos, has fallen to their predations of the mind. He's a Daemon Prince. There are no Daemon Princes who are weak, they only attain their position through being powerful and gaining the favor of one or all gods. You assume it's a poor feat for the Daemon, when it's clearly presented as impressive for Alaric. Fool.



The other Daemons of Chaos have forced the Garden to recede, Plaguebearers and other Daemons defending it against their attackers. But to burn it down? That's a feat only Draigo has attained... Multiple times.



Point?



Or you know, it's both.

Ingredients?

Burning thought
Originally posted by FinalAnswer


Since when exactly?

Well anyone can get mental dicipline, theres a difference between a fat bloke at fat fighters learning how to turn down a cream cake and Kain shoving it down his throat. Your comparison is poor in this case, a guy whos simply mentally faithful to the Emperor vs a Deamon thats not quite up to influencing him, also show me proof of this, these "mind altering".

Well it did happen, he made a very human mistake and a stupid one at that. If they are prone to this and getting owned by people with broken weapons then why are you even comparing them as if their some sort of "all powerful" entity?

It didnt go over my head, I just countered by pointing out their not necesserily as amazing as you believe.

Originally posted by NemeBro


I see a lot of claims mixed with baiting. not much proof at all, typical Shane.

So why are you wasting time listing feats for a Bloodthirster when it may have never hit him or even did anything of note? Or simply avoiding them, using context/plot developed equipment or else, you dont know so why are you trying to make a claim based on something you dont know?

No, what I meant was the other guy was and this deamon is the greatest of Khornes forces. No, but Ka'Bhanda is not a mook among bloodthirsters, you cant use the best ones feats for all of them or even compare, thats like me saying all vampires in LoK have all Kains powers and vice versa, would be wrong.

Pff, imperial vessels were being bored into by swarms of Tyranids while it took them a hellava long time, iirc even had to get a specific type of organism to penetrate it before it destroyed them all. laughing you mean, like the amped Volcano cannon that cant even completly wipe out concrete or likewise? Your making things up, also when did a Super heavy survive it? Also both Volcano and Nova strike a larger surface area than the tip of asword, hundreds of times larger so that comparison is shitty.

So this is not even special to Kaldor then, a Captain can do it so anyone bringing up "zomg Kaldor is the grand master!" is wasting even more time, this whole feat is not a feat at all, just a vague circumstance that can be performed by far lesser ranks.

Yes it is, teleportation takes out distance so Kain can avoid Kaldor as much as he likes, Kaldor does not have precog, show me this. Your adding more fanciful "feats" or "claims" every time, also thats nice, but Kaldor will likely then lose his weapon when Kain teleports off with it and tosses it away.

Your right, context, and therefore your argument does not really exist, you have no real case.

He slices through mooks and you think this is a counter to him being knocked off his feet and unable to even get up or attack? pff, he didnt have anything noted of his struggle or lack therof....

Not at all, because Cherbuael plucking them is like using fingers to grab small rounds. Blocking them with a blade is using the blade which assuming WH40 consistency is usually freakin huge. Also that does not really identify speed, just one event moving onto another, e.g. from talking to attack, unless it literally stated that the marine was shocked. For example, in Dead sky black sun the Symbiote Deamon (cant recall name) was so fast it could dodge bolter fire, none of the marines including Uriel ventris with his Captain enhanced eyes (or eye) couldnt percieve him.

It is if the surfaces their hitting are being smashed just by the resounding explosions of tanks and nearby artillery. If the beings your refering to as extremely strong and pwoerful cant even smash the area around them then their clearly not that strong. If Kratos and Hercules fought but did nothing to the surroundings when they smashed into them (which they did smash) then it would be pretty poor showing of physical power.

So? So they can pilot especially fast vehicles, this is not a close range combat feat or a real reaction feat on Kains level. Slow? the guy will be hitting before Marines, being human and all percieve him, as it takes over a second for the brain to conceive an object, something you take for granted.

The Kasrin was fireing a las pistol at the blur which deflected it yes but that does not mean Quixos reaceted to the beams, merely the Kasrins aim and Eisenhorn himself in the same piece described it all as a blur so I assume Quixos slowe down in their fight.

I didnt miss the point, I expanded on your statement giving a reason why affects on a Titan are on a larger area, Russ under the same effect and area would be dealt less damage but more importantly a Primarch has his own protection, a Titan doesnt against warp fire. laughing their negative feats whether you like it or not, if the guy cant fight as well as Magnus then dont argue him as a feat for Kaldor, if you had Kaldor deflecting warp fire from magnus then you would have a good feat but Mortarian did nothing of note to Kaldor.

Originally posted by NemeBro


So thats a feat fro this specific item.

As for the Deamonic rock, it was vast and beneath the ground, while Eisenhorn was with the magos and his subeterranian vehicle. I recall some context here but the thing is, Eisenhorn uses the rock (which they destroy iirc, without ite Mcing then so again, sounds more like corruption) to power his staff to completly wipe out in a single strike two Deamonhosts, including Cherubael (who wanted to die). Its proven incredibly powerful.

No counter again I see.

Kans not using the warp or sorcery here, he can if he wants to but he has a completly mental based MC in his hands and more importantly, you keep listing things psykers have this and lords of change have that but Kaldors never been faced with it, you cant assume they automatically used it. Eisenhorn may have influenced a couple of people to shoot themselves or others but it takes a lot out of him, its not a simple trick he can spam on the fly.

He still controls minds, your missing the point and his method is completly unique to Psykers in WH40k. You cant claim one defence is equel to the protection against another attack, if I wear a bulletproof vest, its no good against a tank shell like tank armour is.

Not consistently, a human mind is constantly processing the images around it, it takes a second or so for this to happen but since its constantly happening you dont notice it, Kain on the other hand phases in and out of excistence with teleport and can react instantly after doing so, while Kaldors brain is figuiring this, Kains already killed him. laughing a 170 ton? first I dont know where you calculated this, second thats just over half the weight of Raziels obelisk which Raziel moved with ease and arguably more quickly while Titus moves damn slowly and he has a loading mechanism hes moving it on, its not like hes scraping it along hte floor so your numbers sound like BS. Quote please, I want to see a quote of a chiansword doing nothing to a space marine helmet. I think about it deeper than you, if you had equeled my study on this you would realise the very edge, which is monomolecular is tiny but the teeth are not, their an inch thick and further the mechanism holds back the chainsword while Kains finger pressure is all Kain. Kaldors not taken this much pressure in 1mm^2 or less.

Not really lol, none of these things have sat in the core of the planet so I think your making tihngs up again.

No you dont, you need less pressure per less surface area, if your blowing a large structrure up then its taking forces on its whole body equelly.

The core was molten? Not solid? this kinda proves the pressure was light then if he could swim in it....Earths core pressure is high enough to keep even iron solid which turns liquid I assume at less temp than the far more durable Adamantium.

Not really, ive yet to hear of a space marines skin taking incredible punishment, sure they can regen and such but apprently the force was not enough to damage his body or knock him far, he went far enough to still impale the demon in the first place...Your saying that based on nothing but the baseless assumption a man in Terminator armour can sit in the core of a planet and then take that force on a small area, never happened.

I like how you list these heroes then for each marine, you add a secondary choice that "may" be stronger. I think your making most of this up because in the books ive read, Eisenhorn, Uriel ventris etc can pull off incredible feats and survive.

Ime not countering two people on the same argument, ill be repeating myself even more than I have to already.

NemeBro
I'm tired and honestly not feeling that great. Haven't even read your post.

I'm going to do something I rarely do, and extend the offer to agree to disagree.

Do you accept?

Burning thought
I do indeed good sir.

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