PIS vs Typical Feats

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leonidas
so, PIS comes up a LOT. i've always thought that PIS feats are simply outlier feats without sufficient 'collateral' proof. we hear low feats labelled PIS TOO often, imo, but the PIS pedulum swings both ways. i've listed just a couple feats below. are they PIS? i leave that to you. if you say NO, though, then the implication is simple--it is NOT an outlier, and it can be supported by OTHER feats to prove it. can these feats be PROVEN to be PIS-free?

1. thor lifts the midgard serpent
2. hal's krona buster
3. pre-wwh shatters an asteroid 2x size of earth

feel free to add others that i know i left out. if you feel your faves feats AREN'T PIS, prove it. smile

Gecko4lif
3 is pis considering it was gray hulk

1 and 2 are legit though

The Sorrow
Number 1 was just a wacky feat but legit. Gray Hulk's powers are no different from Savage Hulks he just starts off at a lower level. With a grave situation like the Earth about to be destroyed, his adrenaline would have gone through the roof as would his strength.

In a forum fight it's very unlikely he would hit planet crushing heights unless there were specific stips for that thread, but given enough time or the right motivation Grey Hulk could surpass a lot of the top guys in strength.

MF DELPH
All actions in comics are plot based. The whole argument is a paradox.

gogogadgetgo
1. Thor did that thrice. 1st the cat that was really the midgardserpent, second the fishing thing, third the serpent disguised as fin fang foom (though just the foot but he had brittle bones).

third times a charm so i'd have to say not PIS

Uriel005
Originally posted by MF DELPH
All actions in comics are plot based. The whole argument is a paradox. true but not all plot is stupid. For example Batman getting into a legitimate fist fight and tanking shots off of a class 100+ brick should never happen let alone actually having the damage output to bring them down. Case and point being Solomon Grundy when he is acting as a JLA wrecker.

TheHulk
I think their all okay...

Juntai
Originally posted by Uriel005
true but not all plot is stupid. For example Batman getting into a legitimate fist fight and tanking shots off of a class 100+ brick should never happen let alone actually having the damage output to bring them down. Case and point being Solomon Grundy when he is acting as a JLA wrecker. In most of those fights Batman hardly gets hit, but yeah, he's taken shots from Metallo, Grundy, Superman, etc, and although he takes them, its also evident that his durability isn't up with the rest.. . . his offense however.. . .

Parmaniac
Originally posted by leonidas
so, PIS comes up a LOT. i've always thought that PIS feats are simply outlier feats without sufficient 'collateral' proof. we hear low feats labelled PIS TOO often, imo, but the PIS pedulum swings both ways. i've listed just a couple feats below. are they PIS? i leave that to you. if you say NO, though, then the implication is simple--it is NOT an outlier, and it can be supported by OTHER feats to prove it. can these feats be PROVEN to be PIS-free?

1. thor lifts the midgard serpent
2. hal's krona buster
3. pre-wwh shatters an asteroid 2x size of earth

feel free to add others that i know i left out. if you feel your faves feats AREN'T PIS, prove it. smile The asteroid feat has context even on the scan Hulk says something like "with a little help" I'm not sure if he was amped or something but it seems it's not like Hulk jumped into space and shredded through the asteroid.

EDIT: Hal is a bit iffy it was way over his usual portrayal at this point but it not THAT long ago maybe DC decided to put him higher in teh power herachy.

zopzop
Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
1. Thor did that thrice. 1st the cat that was really the midgardserpent, second the fishing thing, third the serpent disguised as fin fang foom (though just the foot but he had brittle bones).

third times a charm so i'd have to say not PIS

Wait, the first time Thor "lifted" the Serpent, wasn't it only just one of his feet (since he was disguised as a cat)? He never fully lifted the Serpent. Like you said the third time he still couldn't lift him, just one "foot". The second encounter, when he fished him off the planet, is the PIS one (even though it was based on the myth). Two out of three times he can't lift more than one paw, so the one where he fished him off the planet has to be PIS.

cdtm
Clear PIS is stuff like, oh, Slade catching Flash or Punisher hitting Spidey, given their history..

Batman has an example of dodging bullets that I'd consider PIS, because it goes against the large, large bulk of his history.. But, if Shiva ever dodges a bullet, I wouldn't consider it PIS. PIS is a case by case basis thing, and depends on a characters overall history and capability..

In the cases you posted, I wouldn't consider any of them PIS.

Parmaniac
Originally posted by cdtm
PIS is a case by case basis thing, and depends on a characters overall history and capability.. thumb up

leonidas
Originally posted by cdtm
Clear PIS is stuff like, oh, Slade catching Flash or Punisher hitting Spidey, given their history..

Batman has an example of dodging bullets that I'd consider PIS, because it goes against the large, large bulk of his history.. But, if Shiva ever dodges a bullet, I wouldn't consider it PIS. PIS is a case by case basis thing, and depends on a characters overall history and capability..

In the cases you posted, I wouldn't consider any of them PIS.

batman dodges bullets a LOT. it would have to be one heck of a feat for me to consider him dodging bullets as pis.... slade HAS a history of tagging flashes..... much like logan has history of slugging it out for extended periods of time with hulk.

punisher has a LOT of history of hitting spidey. i would argue none of the cases you mentioned are at all clear cases of PIS. why? because it has happened many times over. historically, they are NOT outlier feats. same with logan fighting and beating cl100 bricks like abomination aren't PIS.

Bentley
Yep, arguably DS tagging Flash should be considered CIS.

cdtm
Originally posted by leonidas
batman dodges bullets a LOT. it would have to be one heck of a feat for me to consider him dodging bullets as pis.... slade HAS a history of tagging flashes..... much like logan has history of slugging it out for extended periods of time with hulk.

punisher has a LOT of history of hitting spidey. i would argue none of the cases you mentioned are at all clear cases of PIS. why? because it has happened many times over. historically, they are NOT outlier feats. same with logan fighting and beating cl100 bricks like abomination aren't PIS.

Consistency is key, but not the only factor.

No matter how many times Slade tags Flash, that doesn't make it not PIS.

cdtm
Originally posted by Bentley
Yep, arguably DS tagging Flash should be considered CIS.

The two can interconnect, but I usually associate CIS with intelligence or ability deficits. Say, Jakeem Thunder being able to do virtually anything with his Thunderbolt, and not being able to think of any commands beyond "Beat up Mordru".

Bentley
Why should it be PIS, it's clearly CIS from Flash's side, it's plot related but can be explained by characterization.

cdtm
Originally posted by Bentley
Why should it be PIS, it's clearly CIS from Flash's side, it's plot related but can be explained by characterization.

No amount of CIS can explain Wally running into Slades sword during Identity Crisis, though. If Wally didn't see that sword, or couldn't stop in time, he'd be running into stuff all the time when he moves at upper speeds.

cdtm
Here's a clear cut example of PIS:

Impulse repeatedly trying and failing to outrace the television signal so he could see himself on camera from the TV back in Young Justices base. It was hilarious. big grin

leonidas
Originally posted by cdtm
Consistency is key, but not the only factor.

No matter how many times Slade tags Flash, that doesn't make it not PIS.

i agree it's NOT the only factor, but i also think bentley's right--CIS on FLASH'S part plays a role (usually) in slade hitting flash). that is NOT the same as calling PIS because slade hit him. an in-character flash has been shown to be susceptible to slade's attack, with some consistency. imo, that makes it a non-pis issue.

if we said all CIS is off, i don't think anyone would argue slade could still hit him.

i like the discussion though. i think people on the forum confound these issues far too often. in typical forum settings, characters ARE in character. a result of that is that some of the cries of PIS are unfounded. at least imho.

the feats i mentioned above (and there are several others i HAVEN'T mentioned) are different from what we're talking about in that i'm not sure how consistently THAT level of feat is portrayed.

cdtm
Originally posted by leonidas
i agree it's NOT the only factor, but i also think bentley's right--CIS on FLASH'S part plays a role (usually) in slade hitting flash). that is NOT the same as calling PIS because slade hit him. an in-character flash has been shown to be susceptible to slade's attack, with some consistency. imo, that makes it a non-pis issue.

if we said all CIS is off, i don't think anyone would argue slade could still hit him.

i like the discussion though. i think people on the forum confound these issues far too often. in typical forum settings, characters ARE in character. a result of that is that some of the cries of PIS are unfounded. at least imho.

the feats i mentioned above (and there are several others i HAVEN'T mentioned) are different from what we're talking about in that i'm not sure how consistently THAT level of feat is portrayed.

As far as the rules go, they also say a character operates at their best.

So, even if you consider Superman being hit as CIS and not PIS, that doesn't automatically make it a valid argument in the forum, because Superman also has plenty of examples of not standing there like a statue and allowing himself to be hit.

The inconsistency in that case is why I consider it more PIS.. Since CIS = "Character Induced Stupidity", that should mean Superman simply isn't smart enough to use his speed to avoid being hit.. Yet, he HAS used his speed to avoid being hit. So, how could he be dumb with his powers sometimes, but not with other times?

psycho gundam
the midgard serpent feat was actually pulled from the actual myth; that's how thor removed it from the earth, also from the myth was when he lifted the paw of a cat (jormangand in disguised) which was actually a huge section of the serpent's torso, in the comics it was the serpent disguised as FFF.

Bentley
Of course, I don't think Leo's intention is to regulate or depower characters arguing about CIS, but to limit the extents of PIS, because those feats are completely ignored which is quite drastic as a result.

If I say, Hal gets some wins by using some high level shot like the Krona buster, I can claim he wins 1/10 like that in a certain matchup. Those who claim it's PIS will just ignore it. There is a sensible difference.

psycho gundam
the thing about the krona buster is that it makes you wonder why hal wasted so much time when he could well...bust his shit wide open by himself

cdtm
More from my train of thought:

But what about Thor? He also proved he's smart enough to use his powers, so why should Superman get a pass?

Because, Thor has an in comic explanation for his CIS: Warrior honor. When he fights Hulk, he wants to beat him on Hulks terms. He also tends to hold back the bulk of his powers against non Gods, both for fear of hurting them and because he's ego centric enough to assume he'd kill a non God with his full might. big grin

On that same token, while Supes should get a pass on speed inconsistency, he does hold back his power a lot too. So, Superman not one shotting a character with his full strength is total CIS, and not PIS.

cdtm
Originally posted by psycho gundam
the thing about the krona buster is that it makes you wonder why hal wasted so much time when he could well...bust his shit wide open by himself

Good question.

It was claimed his willpower overrode the rings limiters, and Hal usually doesn't kill.. So, I'd speculate this was Hal's version of Death of Superman.. Prior to the Krona buster, Hal was still trying to end it as he normally would. Eventually, he realized the stakes and how impossible sticking to his code would be... The one time in his life he was serious about killing someone, because he saw no other option. He was using 100% of his will in ending a life, which was more than even the ring could handle.

But it's not something he could bust out whenever he wants, which is why it's a high end feat. The conditions need to be right for it.

requim
Odin shacking the multiverse by fighting someone

zopzop
Originally posted by requim
Odin shacking the multiverse by fighting someone

Even worse than that, the entire universe was in danger of being destroyed according to Jean Grey, Dr. Strange and the Silver Surfer.

leonidas
Originally posted by requim
Odin shacking the multiverse by fighting someone

that's a good one. his battles have been universal in scope in his early years, but shaking the multiverse is definitely a bit of an outlier. depending on how you view those early battles, shaking the multiverse could be PIS.

leonidas
Originally posted by Bentley
Of course, I don't think Leo's intention is to regulate or depower characters arguing about CIS, but to limit the extents of PIS, because those feats are completely ignored which is quite drastic as a result.

thumb up



yep. that's almost always how i figure things. if hal battles ss, is there a chance he could pull off that krona blast? yes. based on his typical showings are the odds good? not a chance. so maybe he gets 1/10 in my own accounting of how there battles go. and if it's one and done, i'd never say he used that blast because the proof does not suport it.

fighting to their best should NOT mean characters fight out of character, and rarely used attacks should be viewed as just that--rarely used attacks.

what are some of the more called for PIS feats by the popular guys? captain america? superman? surfer? wolverine? i'd love more feats to discuss to see if these feats really SHOULD be considered PIS.

Sundipped
^I got 1. Surfer channeling the crunch when Big G couldn't do it.

Sr J-Bieb
Hal's done the Krona buster three times now

cdtm
That almost killed Surfer, though.

cdtm
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Hal's done the Krona buster three times now

Oh yeah? Is this before the reboot, or in some later timeline running co-currently?

Sundipped
Originally posted by cdtm
That almost killed Surfer, though.

Yeah but my point was why was Surfer even needed? PIS on Galan's part.

Sr J-Bieb
Originally posted by cdtm
Oh yeah? Is this before the reboot, or in some later timeline running co-currently? Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Damn edit button...

Krona/Entropy...
*mini bio on his new form*
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/owned/Green_Lantern-1992-35-07.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/owned/Green_Lantern-1992-35-08.jpg

Is taken out by a couple GL's after he was smashing the central power battery. They hit it in the heart where all the captive minds are held.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/owned/Green_Lantern-1992-35-16.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/owned/Green_Lantern-1992-35-17.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/owned/Green_Lantern-1992-35-18.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/owned/Green_Lantern-1992-35-19.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/owned/Green_Lantern-1992-35-20.jpg

He did it again more one on one against a weaker Krona too IIRC

cdtm
Those scans aren't just Hal, though. confused

Sr J-Bieb
Originally posted by cdtm
Those scans aren't just Hal, though. confused It's Hal and a group of 'Herald' level beings beating pretty much an abstract level being.

I'm sorry if it's not impressive unless it's just Hal

cdtm
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
It's Hal and a group of 'Herald' level beings beating pretty much an abstract level being.

I'm sorry if it's not impressive unless it's just Hal

It's impressive, but it's not Hal doing a Krona buster. It's a group of GL's doing a Krona buster.

Sr J-Bieb
Originally posted by cdtm
It's impressive, but it's not Hal doing a Krona buster. It's a group of GL's doing a Krona buster. Hal's still a large part of it against a vastly more powerful Krona

Just saying his most recent shot isn't pis, as Hal has a history of rocking Krona's shit (actually, any really powerful being really)

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by leonidas
so, PIS comes up a LOT. i've always thought that PIS feats are simply outlier feats without sufficient 'collateral' proof. we hear low feats labelled PIS TOO often, imo, but the PIS pedulum swings both ways. i've listed just a couple feats below. are they PIS? i leave that to you. if you say NO, though, then the implication is simple--it is NOT an outlier, and it can be supported by OTHER feats to prove it. can these feats be PROVEN to be PIS-free?

1. thor lifts the midgard serpent
2. hal's krona buster
3. pre-wwh shatters an asteroid 2x size of earth

feel free to add others that i know i left out. if you feel your faves feats AREN'T PIS, prove it. smile

None of those are PIS, imo.

Thor's got the strength feats to justify him lifting the Midgard Serpent. Not to mention the feats are taken from the myths themselves. Could it be viewed strictly as a high end feat? Sure, but PIS? No.

Hal, like Bran has said, has a history of rocking Krona's shit. This time around he had no help, but the power rings have a storied history of operating outside and beyond what a typical ringslinger does. High end feat? Sure. PIS? NO.

An asteroid, in spite of it being bigger than Earth, I'd wager would also be a lot easier to destroy than the Earth itself. Asteroids are made of weaker stuff than planets in both comics and reality, so that doesn't bother me in the least.

leonidas
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
None of those are PIS, imo.

Thor's got the strength feats to justify him lifting the Midgard Serpent. Not to mention the feats are taken from the myths themselves. Could it be viewed strictly as a high end feat? Sure, but PIS? No.

Hal, like Bran has said, has a history of rocking Krona's shit. This time around he had no help, but the power rings have a storied history of operating outside and beyond what a typical ringslinger does. High end feat? Sure. PIS? NO.

An asteroid, in spite of it being bigger than Earth, I'd wager would also be a lot easier to destroy than the Earth itself. Asteroids are made of weaker stuff than planets in both comics and reality, so that doesn't bother me in the least.

re: thor: what feats do you think come close? myths... don't mean much, imo.

re: hal: still not totally sold. bran raised some good points. that krona blast though was well above anything i've seen him do in, say, the last 15 years....

an asteroid of THAT size wouldn't technically i don't think.... still, i think that one can be defended a little more easily than the others. i'm still a bit on the fence as regards the other 2. can you come up with any that i missed jake?

hammer81
Thor failed to lift the misgard serpent twice he was able to only lift a foot

leonidas
yep.... hence my skepticism....

zopzop
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
None of those are PIS, imo.

Thor's got the strength feats to justify him lifting the Midgard Serpent. Not to mention the feats are taken from the myths themselves. Could it be viewed strictly as a high end feat? Sure, but PIS? No.

Nah it's PIS. If you fail to lift even a "paw" twice yet succeed in overpowering it once, I'd say the overpowering feat is PIS. What's Thor's greatest strength feat aside from that? Lifting Asgard with Bill's help?

Failed once :
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/4600/tm2eh8.jpg

Failed twice :
http://random-happenstance.blogspot.com/2010/04/and-you-will-know-his-name-is-thorwait.html


Succeeds in overpowering it once :
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/68029/1684413-thor_143_super_super.jpg

It's PIS, IMHO.

hammer81
zopzop great post thumb up

carver9
Good post Zop Zop. Thor really doesn't have many lifting ft and the Asgard ft...it appears Mjlonir took aid in that ft as well. His striking fts are impressive though.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by zopzop
Nah it's PIS. If you fail to lift even a "paw" twice yet succeed in overpowering it once, I'd say the overpowering feat is PIS. What's Thor's greatest strength feat aside from that? Lifting Asgard with Bill's help?

Failed once :
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/4600/tm2eh8.jpg

Failed twice :
http://random-happenstance.blogspot.com/2010/04/and-you-will-know-his-name-is-thorwait.html


Succeeds in overpowering it once :
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/68029/1684413-thor_143_super_super.jpg

It's PIS, IMHO.

The Fing Fang Foom scene happened during Thor's brittle bone phase. He was in constant agony and had grown weaker. Being able to lift Foom's foot in that condition is a ridiculous showing of strength and hardly supports the argument that Thor being able to fish the Serpent is PIS.

I'm not sure why you think being able to lift the Midgard Serpent a few feet of the ground is somehow a bad showing. And Thor was still young at the time. Probably in his late teens.

IIRC, Thor also wrestled with the Serpent, trying to fish him out in another scene but Hyirm cut the rope before Thor succeeded.

Like Jake said, hardly PIS.

Thor has plenty of other strength feats aside from lifting Asgard with Bill by the way such as the World Engine, Neutron Star, arm wrestle with Hercules, being crushed by the weight of a score of planets etc.

Originally posted by carver9
Good post Zop Zop. Thor really doesn't have many lifting ft and the Asgard ft...it appears Mjlonir took aid in that ft as well. His striking fts are impressive though.
Just stop, you have no idea what you're talking about. How many times do I need to shut you up?

zopzop
Bah messed up my original post it should read :

If you fail to lift only a "paw" twice. Not "If you failed to lift even a "paw" twice".

zopzop
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Like Jake said, hardly PIS.

Thor has plenty of other strength feats aside from lifting Asgard with Bill by the way such as the World Engine, Neutron Star, arm wrestle with Hercules, being crushed by the weight of a score of planets etc.


The World Engine one isn't cannon no? The Bill feat is shared and the hammers were glowing (why?). The arm wrestling one could be hyperbole since the planet they were fighting on was just fine and dandy only the column collapsed. There wasn't even damage to the ground beneath them.

The Neutron Star and Umar ones can be debated too.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by zopzop
The World Engine one isn't cannon no? The Bill feat is shared and the hammers were glowing (why?). The arm wrestling one could be hyperbole since the planet they were fighting on was just fine and dandy only the column collapsed. There wasn't even damage to the ground beneath them.

The Neutron Star and Umar ones can be debated too.

What makes you think it isn't cannon? Sometimes I think you guys just come up with this.

Because it looks cool? I always assumed Bill/Thor lifted Asgard, then Thor used the power of Mjolnir to keep it in the air. Possibly but still worth mentioning, gonna need better evidence than that.

Only poorly.

carver9
Originally posted by zopzop
The World Engine one isn't cannon no? The Bill feat is shared and the hammers were glowing (why?). The arm wrestling one could be hyperbole since the planet they were fighting on was just fine and dandy only the column collapsed. There wasn't even damage to the ground beneath them.

The Neutron Star and Umar ones can be debated too.

I said the same things.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by carver9
I said the same things.

Do you have a memory wipe every morning? It seems that any event older than the 24 hours is recalled inaccurately by you.

carver9
Hammers glowing.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/ThorvsSuperGodSkrull25.jpg

Right after this, they are not even touching Asgard and the hammer is keeping it afloat.

Rage.Of.Olympus
I'll ask Fraction what his intent was if enough people think the feat is in question.

I just assumed it was a strength feat, first time I realized people thought it was iffy.

carver9
Please do because if this didn't happen http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/ThorvsSuperGodSkrull26.jpg ...we wouldn't be having this discussion.

dmills
I think the problem that some people have with some of Thor's strength feats is that the ones in question tend to be on the esoteric/hyperbolic side. A machine akin to a neutron star, energy with the weight of planets, arm wrestling the planet off its axis etc.

Not saying it right, but those things tend to lend themselves to lowballing more so then straight up lifting buildings etc.

carver9
Originally posted by dmills
I think the problem that some people have with some of Thor's strength feats is that the ones in question tend to be on the esoteric/hyperbolic side. A machine akin to a neutron star, energy with the weight of planets, arm wrestling the planet off its axis etc.

Not saying it right, but those things tend to lend themselves to lowballing more so then straight up lifting buildings etc.

That's part of the issue. Another part is the picking and choosing of statements (not saying that you are doing this Rage). People are accepting the statement of Thor being hit by an attack similar to a neutron star but when it was stated on panel that Cyclops blast is powerful enough to split a planet in half, it was discredited.

That's just one example.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The Fing Fang Foom scene happened during Thor's brittle bone phase. He was in constant agony and had grown weaker. Being able to lift Foom's foot in that condition is a ridiculous showing of strength and hardly supports the argument that Thor being able to fish the Serpent is PIS.

I'm not sure why you think being able to lift the Midgard Serpent a few feet of the ground is somehow a bad showing. And Thor was still young at the time. Probably in his late teens.

IIRC, Thor also wrestled with the Serpent, trying to fish him out in another scene but Hyirm cut the rope before Thor succeeded.

Like Jake said, hardly PIS.

Thor has plenty of other strength feats aside from lifting Asgard with Bill by the way such as the World Engine, Neutron Star, arm wrestle with Hercules, being crushed by the weight of a score of planets etc.


Just stop, you have no idea what you're talking about. How many times do I need to shut you up?

thumb up

A younger Thor and a sick Thor failing to lift the Midgard Serpent doesn't discredit a healthy Thor in his prime doing so.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Ironically, both of those showings are superior to any lifting feat Gladiator has done. Lifting the Midgard Serpent a few feet off the ground as a youth or Fing Fang Foom's (Keep in mind that ithat the Serpent's entire form seemed to be compressed into that body) foot while incredibly sick shits on lifting the Baxter building.

Originally posted by dmills
I think the problem that some people have with some of Thor's strength feats is that the ones in question tend to be on the esoteric/hyperbolic side. A machine akin to a neutron star, energy with the weight of planets, arm wrestling the planet off its axis etc.

Not saying it right, but those things tend to lend themselves to lowballing more so then straight up lifting buildings etc.

Most of those people have an agenda and when it suits them, even use statements alone as gospel.

For record, the majority of e stuff I've posted has reasonable grounds. For example, the Neutron Star scene was when Thor was hit by a gravity bomb from an advanced race, the weight Thor was subjected to was created by a Skyfather level being etc.

psycho gundam
rage, they just mad

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