Kyle as Ion vs HotM Hulk

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Bentley
Fight in an empty universe.

Strict physical combat. Kyle can boost his physical status with the power of Ion.

cdtm
Original Ion?

TheHulk
All Abilites Hulk gets smashed but fist fight Hulk smash as his strength lvl is higher in the first place....

Bentley
Originally posted by cdtm
Original Ion?


Yes.

cdtm
Originally posted by Bentley
Yes.

Hulk dies.

Anything a GL can do, Ion can do to the nth level. Hal amped himself to toss Mongul around, and there's no reason to think something as simple as strength amping is a feat unique to him, so..

Yeah.

carver9
Lol...comparing Mongul to Hulk...hahahahaha...too funny.

requim
people just dont get it that the current hulk is beastly he is way more powerful than averege hulk or even WWH he is on a much higher level but for some people its just too hard to accept

Kyle Stomps

Juntai
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...comparing Mongul to Hulk...hahahahaha...too funny. Right, and he was comparing GL to ION at the same time, which isn't a comparison either. In fact, old Hulk vs Current Hulk is a lot closer than GL to ION. Run along.

cdtm
The comparison was to headoff any fanboys asking for proof that Ion could strength amp.

If a GL can do it, Ion sure as hell can, and to a much higher level.

DarkSaint85
Hotm?

Bentley
Heart of the Monster, is the last Hulk arc of the Incredible Hulk run before they rebooted the issue number.

Nihilist
Hulk gets stomped out of sight.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by Bentley
Heart of the Monster, is the last Hulk arc of the Incredible Hulk run before they rebooted the issue number. it's just a new volume, and it's "Heart Of The Multi-verse" hulk

cool

iceman24567
Originally posted by psycho gundam
it's just a new volume, and it's "Heart Of The Multi-verse" hulk

cool laughing you might be on to something

TheHulk
It's a fist fight guys not a all powers fight....

JakeTheBank
Original Ion...who was referred to as Godlike in ability and could have rewritten the universe according to Hal Spectre...

Versus...

The Hulk.

no expression

I'm having a hard time understanding how this isn't spite, even with the physical combat stipulation.

Galan007
Um, yeah.

If a normal-powered GL can physically amp himself enough to compete with silver age Mongul, I cannot even fathom the level of strength Kyle (merged with the entire Central Battery) could manifest. Regardless, he DEMOLISHES Hulk.

OneDumbG0
Phail bat thread is phail.

Bentley
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Phail bat thread is phail.


Dude, you think that two Kyles can't beat Thor, you might as well think Hulk beats Ion erm


stick out tongue

OneDumbG0
^ The way you act, you think two of the top five GLs can take on any high herald easily (as Thor is about as high a herald as you can get). So what level was Red Lantern Guy Gardner? High trans? Since he was romping through Kyle, Kilowog, Star Sapphire Miri, Indigo-2 Munk, Soranik Natu, Vath and Isamot?

And yeah, everyone but Kyle was holding back. And that team still couldn't contain him without Mogo's help.

Bentley
Well, even Guy is allowed to have a legitimate herald level feat, any herald who is worth a dime has some herald busting showings under their belt. It depends in how characters are portrayed during a certain arc.

Also, I don't mean take anything from Guy -because really, non-Hal lanterns need their time to shine-, but Red Lantern light is strong against green constructs. Just as a clarification.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Galan007
Um, yeah.

If a normal-powered GL can physically amp himself enough to compete with silver age Mongul, I cannot even fathom the level of strength Kyle (merged with the entire Central Battery) could manifest. Regardless, he DEMOLISHES Hulk.

Yeah, closing soon.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Bentley
Well, even Guy is allowed to have a legitimate herald level feat, any herald who is worth a dime has some herald busting showings under their belt. It depends in how characters are portrayed during a certain arc.

Also, I don't mean take anything from Guy -because really, non-Hal lanterns need their time to shine-, but Red Lantern light is strong against green constructs. Just as a clarification. ... this doesn't answer my question at all.

The Red Lantern light is good against everything. GL energy isn't especially susceptible to it in the slightest. So Red Lantern Guy Gardner for high Trans?

I'm just saying, two Green Lanterns isn't an easy auto-win over a high herald, let alone some of the highest heralds. Otherwise you inflate characters like Weaponer, Red Lantern Guy and dozens of other characters that have taken on more than one premier GL simultaneously into high trans characters. I don't even see Sinestro being overwhelmed 10/10 by Hal and Kyle. And this isn't just about GLs. Obviously Surfer + BRB won't take 10/10 from Thor... since they didn't do so on-panel. Same with Surfer + Warlock. Nul + Angrir. Etc., etc. You can point to all the marquee heralds across both companies for such examples.

iceman24567
Red Lantern Guy was wrecking shit

Bentley
Characters are allowed to have low feats, it happens often in comics, I think you even coined the name Reverse-Ninja law to explain it. But even if we used RNL to filter showings, it would be still off limits as to choose a winner in the forum, as per forum rules.

OneDumbG0
^ Thor beating BRB and Surfer isn't inverse ninja law. Neither was Thor taking on Nul and Angrir. Or Superman stomping on Ultraman and Superwoman. Or Bullseye taking on Daredevil and Elektra. Or Carnage taking on Venom and Spiderman. Or etc., etc., etc. Inverse ninja law isn't anywhere near as expansive you think it is.

And I don't know what imaginary forum rule you have in mind, but you can't have it both ways. By arguing against inverse ninja law as applied to Prime and then applying inverse ninja law to RL Guy Gardner by suggesting that the combined Lantern team all suffered from low feats. Pick one or the other.

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
... this doesn't answer my question at all.

The Red Lantern light is good against everything. GL energy isn't especially susceptible to it in the slightest. So Red Lantern Guy Gardner for high Trans?

I'm just saying, two Green Lanterns isn't an easy auto-win over a high herald, let alone some of the highest heralds. Otherwise you inflate characters like Weaponer, Red Lantern Guy and dozens of other characters that have taken on more than one premier GL simultaneously into high trans characters. I don't even see Sinestro being overwhelmed 10/10 by Hal and Kyle. And this isn't just about GLs. Obviously Surfer + BRB won't take 10/10 from Thor... since they didn't do so on-panel. Same with Surfer + Warlock. Nul + Angrir. Etc., etc. You can point to all the marquee heralds across both companies for such examples.

IIRC, didn't Blue Light resist it?

OneDumbG0
^ Blue light heals it. Blue light might resist it but I don't remember Saint Walker ever doing so. He seemed to be in as much danger when Hal was going bonkers as anybody. In any case, red light eats through green light, yellow light, sapphire light, etc. equally. It's hurt Anti-Monitor and Spectre. Lobo's like the only character that's no-sold it but that's Lobo.

So green light isn't especially weak to it by any means.

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Blue light heals it. Blue light might resist it but I don't remember Saint Walker ever doing so. He seemed to be in as much danger when Hal was going bonkers as anybody. In any case, red light eats through green light, yellow light, sapphire light, etc. equally. It's hurt Anti-Monitor and Spectre. Lobo's like the only character that's no-sold it but that's Lobo.

So green light isn't especially weak to it by any means.

Oh, yeah, I'd agree on that point. Green is no worse off than the others.

Bentley
The forum rule I was thinking was "characters uset their powers at their best".

For me there are high showings, low showings and simply circumstances in may of the examples you cite. Heralds beat other heralds in numbers, easily at times, depending in different depictions of the characters. This is nothing new nor poses any radical divergence of how we all chose winners or losers here.

But do you think that Surfer or BRB when beaten by Thor are fighting to the best of their abilities?

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Bentley
The forum rule I was thinking was "characters uset their powers at their best".

For me there are high showings, low showings and simply circumstances in may of the examples you cite. Heralds beat other heralds in numbers, easily at times, depending in different depictions of the characters. This is nothing new nor poses any radical divergence of how we all chose winners or losers here. If there is nothing new about heralds (and it's not just heralds) beating other heralds in numbers, then why is it such a divergence that you won't even accept what actually happened on-panel? Sorry, I'm not going to automatically dismiss or project low showings onto the two guys that got beaten by one guy. And all your criticisms of inverse ninja law sharply disconnect with this. You're dismissing inverse ninja law when it's plainly apparent via critical mass while simultaneously expanding inverse ninja law to its utmost when there's simply 1+ character. That makes no sense to me. Originally posted by Bentley
But do you think that Surfer or BRB when beaten by Thor are fighting to the best of their abilities? I wouldn't be surprised if they were. Surfer + Warlock lost. Surfer wasn't holding back and Warlock was fighting as best he could using all his weapons, skills, tactics save for soulsuck (which would have violated CIS). Fighting optimally doesn't guarantee any sort of victory (especially when it's more than arguable about who would take the clear majority between any of the three fighters in a 1-on-1). This isn't math, it's fighting.

In any event, this is wholly unrelated to GLs. Apparently, you think Guy and Kilowog could take 10/10 from Superman easily as much as you think that Nul and Angrir take 10/10 from Thor easily. Forgive my disbelief because based on what I've seen on-panel, that isn't how it actually works out. It could happen, it wouldn't definitely happen. And I may believe in inverse ninja law, but I don't stretch its basic concept (more opponents, the less effective they are) to its absolute utmost (just one more opponent, the less effective they are).

cdtm
Comics don't play out like rumbles, though.

Flash doesn't beat Captain Cold or any of his rogues 10/10, either, but on the boards we know better.

OneDumbG0
^ That's PIS.

IDLI, IDH =/= PIS.

Bentley
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Fighting optimally doesn't guarantee any sort of victory (especially when it's more than arguable about who would take the clear majority between any of the three fighters in a 1-on-1). This isn't math, it's fighting.

Fighting optimally limits the amount of randomness that we see in comics, I just think it limits it more than you do.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
In any event, this is wholly unrelated to GLs. Apparently, you think Guy and Kilowog could take 10/10 from Superman easily as much as you think that Nul and Angrir take 10/10 from Thor easily.

It's different than the Surfer/BRB example though. Angrir didn't show any real high herald material, and neither Guy and Kilowog are considered to be Hal level.

What you're saying is more akin to saying Thor and Captain Marvel losing some fights to Superman even as a team. Would you say Kal wins some?

An unrelated thing in the Hal/Kyle matchup: these two characters are potentially good team mates, considering they have fought side to side and that they are part of the same corps, received similar training, know their powersets inside out, etc. This raises their odds a lot when they fight optimally imo.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Bentley
Fighting optimally limits the amount of randomness that we see in comics, I just think it limits it more than you do. It banishes PIS. It doesn't banish Carnage fighting off Venom and Spiderman or Thor fighting off Nul and Angrir. Originally posted by Bentley
It's different than the Surfer/BRB example though. Angrir didn't show any real high herald material, and neither Guy and Kilowog are considered to be Hal level.

What you're saying is more akin to saying Thor and Captain Marvel losing some fights to Superman even as a team. Would you say Kal wins some?

An unrelated thing in the Hal/Kyle matchup: these two characters are potentially good team mates, considering they have fought side to side and that they are part of the same corps, received similar training, know their powersets inside out, etc. This raises their odds a lot when they fight optimally imo. I'm done. You're moving the goalposts, ignoring my questions and deflecting.

I don't think anybody's ever used inverse ninja theory for a 2-on-1 fights. And applying it that way is completely counter-intuitive to refusing to apply it when its 10-on-1 or 100-on-1. Let me know when you figure out whether or not Prime enjoyed inverse ninja law or, as you're (unsuccessfully) trying to distinguish it, Prime's multiple opponents not performing at optimal levels.

Bentley
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It banishes PIS. It doesn't banish Carnage fighting off Venom and Spiderman or Thor fighting off Nul and Angrir. I'm done. You're moving the goalposts, ignoring my questions and deflecting.


I don't agree it just banishes PIS. You're deflecting and ignoring as much as me.

Feel free to leave, we're debating about nitpicks and point of views, our discussions will always end when we realize the debate is mooth.

And for the record, I do think Inverse Ninja Law has some validity and that your position is reasonable. I'm not going to pretend I've stone fixed opinions on every matter and that I can't change my mind, that's ridiculous and would make any kind of discussion useless.

Mindset
Originally posted by Superwhirly
Both you and the other chap, onedumbgo are that very rare thing for this forum, intelligent. Both of you provide compelling arguments in this thread and you are both passionate about your position. How nice to see. You get the Whirly seal of approval for being far to bright for this forum. Whirly, why are you not trolling?

Mindset
Have you always admired me?

Mindset
I read that as, "yes".

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Bentley
I don't agree it just banishes PIS. You're deflecting and ignoring as much as me.

Feel free to leave, we're debating about nitpicks and point of views, our discussions will always end when we realize the debate is mooth.

And for the record, I do think Inverse Ninja Law has some validity and that your position is reasonable. I'm not going to pretend I've stone fixed opinions on every matter and that I can't change my mind, that's ridiculous and would make any kind of discussion useless. That doesn't wash. If you focus your conception of hypothetical fights as properly only using a character at the best of his ability, then you've crystallized what that optimal level is for each character. Otherwise you'd never give an opinion on who would win. The way you preach it, there are no differing optimal levels. Optimal literally means best, meaning one, meaning single, meaning top, meaning only. Which means, everytime character A meets character B, both at optimal levels, the one with the higher optimal level will always win 10/10.

Needless to say, that can't be how you think. You've never struck me as a person that considers every fight to be a simple measure of optimal levels run against each other where the higher optimal level guarantees victory every time, i.e., Thor at his optimal levels operates at a higher level than Surfer at his optimal levels only slightly, but because we have to only consider them at their optimal levels, Thor wins every single time in a KMC hypothetical battle 10/10. Taken at a very shallow level, of course using characters at their optimal level makes the whole 2-on-1 inquiry far more simplified, as you simply stack this measurement of both characters A+B optimal level against the single character C. Which is where are initial disagreement lay.

But that's not how fights work. And I need not belabor the obvious by citing to more examples in comics. And my dialogue isn't meant to force you to accept a position, without which, I will unjustifiably paint you as a hypocrite. It's simply about me not being able to move forward in a discussion when you keep shifting your position. I have no idea whether you believe in inverse ninja law. I have no idea whether you would take such a theory and limit it only to large numbers or small numbers or any number larger than one. I have no idea whether or not you make special exceptions regardless of number. If that's where the discussion ends, fine. But let's do away with you backhandedly suggesting that I am purposefully antagonizing you in an unfair manner when it's you that's poking fun at me for thinking that Thor doesn't get cleanly dominated 10/10 by 2 GLs and I'm trying to explain why.

Bentley
All in which I agree, but the first time I heard you saying GLs cannot clean sweep Thor, I thought you were actually suggesting he could take the majority. Which is quite out there.

Thor winning 1/10 or 2/10 depending on the opponents, isn't really out of question, and I'm not claiming it is. What I'm saying is that with the two opponents we listed I don't personally lean towards it happening -as I said, factoring experience as a team, the ability of the powers to blend and overall top herald material-. Also, I agree that the reduction in simple numbers is lacking of the consideration of how the actual fight goes, I could've said, for example, that Thor is at least beating one of the two a number of times, to mark the difference against sheer domination.

I try to make it as if the result in a team battle is going to depend on something else than the simple addition of power levels. If I say for example that Surfer takes 4 from Thor and BRB takes 3, I can expect them to do at least as good as 5. But the best each individual player does in the same matchup, the bigger their combinated win. I don't think Angrir had much of a shot of beating Thor at all, but since Nul does better, they actually worked don't-get-up and waste-power tactics that mattered in the end. Not every comic battle makes it crystal clear, nor teaming up is always as benefic.

You did bring something to the table that I admit I hadn't considered in the matchup we discussed, which is the experience of the nominal characters to fight teams. Experience beating teams should be considered as much as experience working as a team.

And no I don't really think GLs would dominate Thor in any demeaning sense. Most of the time I'm trying to understand exactly the points you're trying to make, and I'll be the first to admit that I jump into some debates without fully understanding a point made earlier, for which I should apologize, but if I had to stick in every discussion from the beginning I would never post.

Regarding the Inverse Ninja Law, I think it's importance is precisely to disbelief in how big teams are displayed in a certain matchup, given that their skills won't be accurately shown given the situation. It is also, a Wow factor in which the opponents are diminished just to become numbers and inflate the ability of the lone opponent. Now, the beauty of the INL is that it's accurate, you can actually point a bunch of examples in which it can be easily applied. It's a practical, positive observation and it's validity is justified by that recurrence. I don't believe there is an analogous general observation that you can make to two on one combat, or individual matchups, but I think both characteristics of the INL -less skill displayed, a wow factor- can be found in certain matchups, to a lesser degree. This was the argumentation I was trying to explain, but since you're not psychic you probably didn't know. Again, the analogy meant to clarify the statement but just made it muddier, so dropping it seemed like the thing to do.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Bentley
All in which I agree, but the first time I heard you saying GLs cannot clean sweep Thor, I thought you were actually suggesting he could take the majority. Which is quite out there. You mean we've been arguing over nothing for two pages? crackers Originally posted by Bentley
And no I don't really think GLs would dominate Thor in any demeaning sense. Most of the time I'm trying to understand exactly the points you're trying to make, and I'll be the first to admit that I jump into some debates without fully understanding a point made earlier, for which I should apologize, but if I had to stick in every discussion from the beginning I would never post. Bentley = only poster on KMC who jumps into the middle of a conversation. uhuh

Clearly, nobody else ever does this. Especially not me. You should be banned. sneer

Bentley
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You mean we've been arguing over nothing for two pages? crackers


We do that often actually embarrasment

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.