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I notice this is perhaps the one Kain thread that hasn't been done yet. There was one before which had Samus and Kain it, but it also had Mewtwo and a few other people. But I digress, this is here now, so the rules be thus:

1. Standard Samus, with no Eleventh Hour weapons or Hypermode, but otherwise all upgrades Vs. Full Power Kain, including spells, weapons, and items.

2. Full Power Samus Vs. Full Power Kain.


Let's see how far it goes.

Oh lawdy.

Imho, she vapes his mist form with plasma beam.

Plasma Beam, for reference. Prime version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0w8r9Y-CKw#t=7m18s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5H0RA0rGug#t=45s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5H0RA0rGug#t=3m28s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5H0RA0rGug#t=6m31s

Also, Light Beam, which is sort of like the plasma beam but with better effect against stuff vulnerable to light. Like, say, Vampires.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOd1taoTfMw#t=3m35s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOd1taoTfMw#t=9m24s

Samus loses via sucking.

As I said in the other thread I dont have much patience for anything other than Skyrim with my free time atm but if you want to argue this, please list a couple of the most powerful weapons and an actual cutscene/canon feat for the power of it please.

Also only fledlings are vulnerable to sunlight so light beam is meaningless if thats all it does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b88gt2LNyT8#t=4m28s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LMgo0dv_i4#t=6m8s

Some Nova Beam stuff.



Are you implying that the plasma beam cannot actually vaporize Space Pirates, melt metal and burn robots to molten slag? You certainly seem to be implying it.



Oops hypocrisy.




If you didn't notice, it also sets things on fire and vaporizes them. I highly doubt an older vampire would be immune to a more focused/intense blast of light in any case. Heck, Raziel's Sunlight Glyph still affects adult vampires. The Light Beam would be especially effective, given that it's specifically designed to kill beings of darkness.


Hmmm. Strongest weapons, though? Nah, I think I'll just go with what I expect to be the most problematic for Kain. Well, I suppose we can start with Power Bombs, which is one of her strongest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hltTCKocko#t=8m8s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-kVICDyWqA#t=9m10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31SExgk5fiY#t=5m50s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh2lfYJ-xQs#t=4m58s

What's Kain's ice resistance?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMz9noXASiQ#t=10m16s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY6x0L1AHZQ#t=7m34s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE0WZLJ2jIY#t=5m58s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfCgVGh8cy4#t=9m48s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKQa7rDY7L8#t=2m23s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBflWvk2GIY#t=1m31s

Dark Beam, same as the Ice Beam except it traps things in dark energy instead of ice. And you can still shatter them with missiles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSs8hSU8-PA#t=2m28s

Maybe I'll get more later; that's enough for now, right?

Originally posted by The Scenario
Are you implying that the plasma beam cannot actually vaporize Space Pirates, melt metal and burn robots to molten slag? You certainly seem to be implying it.

He's asking you to not be dishonest and back up everything you say. It's a common courtesy debaters are expected to show to each other; I see no implication regarding anyones capabilities.







Obvs he's not asking for only cutscenes.

Please, I understand that it's okay and probably even encouraged to make fun of BT because he's unpopular, just like how it's perfectly okay in this part of the forum to talk shit about conservatives, religious people and republicans because they're "morally bad people", but can we please keep the kiddo ad hominem to ourselves? At the very least, if you're going to antagonize the guy, do so with an actual valid point.

Scenario, your post reeked of spiteful butthurt.

I'm not saying this to troll you as Blax is either.

Come on, that shit is beneath you.

Yes, and where exactly did I fail to provide evidence before he asked? Seeing as I had already posted several videos of the plasma beam, I'm afraid I felt a little slighted when they were ignored and BT asked for an "actual" cutscene or canon source. In that context, the question, along with the word "actual," implies that the feats I posted are not canon, doesn't it?

If not, I apologize for an overreaction.



I think I do have a valid point, though. I realize I may have responded a bit harshly, and I apologize for that.

EDIT: Whether trolling or not, he's got a point. I'll be getting my **** together now.

A lot of your evidence consists of shooting actual enemies within the game though, damage to enemies or how long it takes to destroy them is a hard canon gauge, you would also need to show durability of said machines as well to claim its impressive of course.

Kain, nay any vampire are not exactly "beings of darkness", the only entity Ican think of atm that match that description would be the shadow spirits in LoK. The light may be irrelevent but let me gauge the power bombs and ice things;

The power bomb seems to have a slow charge up, I think it probably has enough heat to get the job done and defeat Kain but the charge up would kill Samus. The ice missles are harder to gauge although their not that quick, I cant see Kain having a problem avoiding them.

As for Kains offense, TK could ruin her looking fairly light, blood powers (we know she has blood this time unlike bowser) and mind powers would be an end to her. She seems to be an easy target and I doubt considering her universe that she has actual resitance to magical powers.

Defence? mist form could be effective against all but the power bomb which creates an actual wave of heat that may dissipate it, missle based weapons would probably pass through it but teleport is probably his best defence. Most of her primary attacks you have shown are not physical based, e.g. kinetic damage and Kain has no resistance to the ice or heat to that degree that I can prove.


Also I like how when I call you out on something you go to the mods to try and get them on your side but when someone else does you comply, its this sort of bias to the person rather than argument that holds these "debates" back.

Out of curiosity, what does Kain have in the way of damage-dealing? Because Samus regularly tanks massive explosions, high-power lasers, and being immersed in magma (following Earth conventions, 1300-2400 degrees F), corrosive acid, and radioactive matter, without physical damage to her suit.

Kain wont try and damage her suit, he will try and kill her. Spiritually or mentally if he has to, if your specifically asking for physical damage then she can try triple the core pressure of the earth in a square millimeter of her suit, I would say that would turn it into swiss cheese.

Originally posted by Burning thought
A lot of your evidence consists of shooting actual enemies within the game though, damage to enemies or how long it takes to destroy them is a hard canon gauge, you would also need to show durability of said machines as well to claim its impressive of course.

That's not what I'm trying to prove, though. All I want you to look at is the effect of the beam. How long it takes to kill the Space Pirate is irrelevant to the fact that the plasma beam can set it on fire, and when it does die it turns to ash. Same deal with the robots; I realize the number of shots it takes is a mechanic but again that's irrelevant when said robot ends up melting into a puddle of molten slag. Then there's the piles of metal Samus melts as well.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wgWbqCesPk

Meh. Vampires are weak to light, Ing are weak to light, the Light Beam is designed to exploit this weakness. Even if the target isn't a being of darkness it's still capable of setting them on fire like a weaker version of the plasma beam.




There are a few different versions of the power bomb. The first on I linked is the standard one, can be dropped and takes a few seconds to explode, but has the largest blast radius. The second is the Metroid Prime version, which detonates immediately with no charge up but has a smaller radius. Then there's the Other M version, which has a long charge up time, takes a second to explode, and has a large blast as well as unlimited ammo. The first 2 version Samus is capable of dropping while moving, so she can lay one as she rolls around, which would make her much harder to hit. The Other M version probably would be too slow, but she can charge while rolling, too, and Kain's unlikely to kill her before she pulls it off.

Samus can rapid fire missiles or spam the ice beam, and with the Seeker Missile launch 5 ice missiles at once, all homing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGXy-tZ2wwk#t=9m20s




I doubt it, since Samus can fly (Space Jump) she is more than likely able to get out of TK anyway, perhaps even with the Morph Ball. Maybe the Gravity suit could block it, even. Blood Powers I don't see getting past the suit, and mind powers in general don't tend to work on Samus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOd1taoTfMw#t=9m24s

"Armor systems online. Symbiotic possession attempt failed."

Because Ing can't survive in the light world, they tend to possess other creatures and use their bodies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyz0WhFQd3I#t=6m26s

Ing a are basically demons. In addition, Dark Samus has a similar mind control ability: http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Pirate_Data
The first few entries show what I mean. And Dark Samus did try to control Samus like this, it's basically the whole plot of Metroid Prime 3 that Samus got corrupted and has to resist the influence. So mind control is pretty much a no-go.



I have doubts mist can really protect him from the plasma beam, but he might really have problems with the diffusion missiles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE0WZLJ2jIY#t=5m58s

And a quick power bomb should be more useful than a slow one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yR3CW9Ac7w#t=9m7s

Originally posted by The Scenario
That's not what I'm trying to prove, though. All I want you to look at is the effect of the beam. How long it takes to kill the Space Pirate is irrelevant to the fact that the plasma beam can set it on fire, and when it does die it turns to ash. Same deal with the robots; I realize the number of shots it takes is a mechanic but again that's irrelevant when said robot ends up melting into a puddle of molten slag. Then there's the piles of metal Samus melts as well.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wgWbqCesPk

Meh. Vampires are weak to light, Ing are weak to light, the Light Beam is designed to exploit this weakness. Even if the target isn't a being of darkness it's still capable of setting them on fire like a weaker version of the plasma beam.




There are a few different versions of the power bomb. The first on I linked is the standard one, can be dropped and takes a few seconds to explode, but has the largest blast radius. The second is the Metroid Prime version, which detonates immediately with no charge up but has a smaller radius. Then there's the Other M version, which has a long charge up time, takes a second to explode, and has a large blast as well as unlimited ammo. The first 2 version Samus is capable of dropping while moving, so she can lay one as she rolls around, which would make her much harder to hit. The Other M version probably would be too slow, but she can charge while rolling, too, and Kain's unlikely to kill her before she pulls it off.

Samus can rapid fire missiles or spam the ice beam, and with the Seeker Missile launch 5 ice missiles at once, all homing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGXy-tZ2wwk#t=9m20s




I doubt it, since Samus can fly (Space Jump) she is more than likely able to get out of TK anyway, perhaps even with the Morph Ball. Maybe the Gravity suit could block it, even. Blood Powers I don't see getting past the suit, and mind powers in general don't tend to work on Samus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOd1taoTfMw#t=9m24s

"Armor systems online. Symbiotic possession attempt failed."

Because Ing can't survive in the light world, they tend to possess other creatures and use their bodies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyz0WhFQd3I#t=6m26s

Ing a are basically demons. In addition, Dark Samus has a similar mind control ability: http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Pirate_Data
The first few entries show what I mean. And Dark Samus did try to control Samus like this, it's basically the whole plot of Metroid Prime 3 that Samus got corrupted and has to resist the influence. So mind control is pretty much a no-go.



I have doubts mist can really protect him from the plasma beam, but he might really have problems with the diffusion missiles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE0WZLJ2jIY#t=5m58s

And a quick power bomb should be more useful than a slow one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yR3CW9Ac7w#t=9m7s

I dont know the heating point of those metals though, its relevent because everything melts at a certain temperature.

No, their burned by sunlight, if Ing are confirmed to only be harmed by sunlight alone then you may have a point, Kain walks around in the day time, light is irrelevent to him.

"unlikely" when he can avoid her through teleportation, throw her like a ball with TK or just one shot her with a spell her suit cant do anything about.

Being able to fly doesnt mean Tk stops working...it just means she can also fly under her own power, but Kain can make her fly under his and throw her around. Blood powers dont touch the suit as for mind powers, since when is a symbiote possession=mind control? or spirit control? Kain has both.

Show me Dark Samus actually doing a mind control, then show me the effectiveness of it, if its useless and has never worked we dont have much basis.

Its feat there is breaking rocks, I cant see a power bomb of that strength doing anything.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know the heating point of those metals though, its relevent because everything melts at a certain temperature.

Let's see...the robots are called Tinbots, so assuming they are made of tin gives us a melting point of 230 Celsius and a boiling point of 2602 Celsius. Given that it also turns living things to ash it must be pretty hot.



Yes yes, Kain has resistance to normal sunlight. That doesn't necessarily mean he's immune to a more intense blast or standing next to a star. Raziel has a Sunlight Glyph that kills adult vampires despite their immunity. About Ing, I don't actually know if they're vulnerable to normal sunlight. It's hard to explain, but the planet they're on, Aether, doesn't have a sun. Instead, there is the Light of Aether, a probably magical energy source within the planet that serves the purpose of replacing the sun. Scans say it contains solar energy and several other things. It's weird, and it's also what powers the Light Beam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBqLpKhOH1g#t=10m4s



I say unlikely since Samus can counter Kain TK throwing her in several ways, one of which would be to turn into an actual ball. She can fly, Kain wouldn't be able to hold her still, and in mid air she can go right into a screw attack. What spell, specifically? I can't think of any spell Kain has that could get past Samus' suit. Same with the blood powers, they have no way past the suit.
Since the symbiote controls your mind, obviously.




Let's start with Rundas. Before Dark Samus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjI7Fe6B4j8#t=7m35s

After Dark Samus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjo-LbUz6k8#t=3m35s

Next up, Ghor. Before Dark Samus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHCpZ3t0kt4#t=2m22s

After Dark Samus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFL240Bb0l0#t=13s

Gandrada before Dark Samus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHKZefebYtk#t=32s

After Dark Samus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onNvwfHCOcA







Dark Samus controlled a significant portion of the Space Pirates and all of Samus' bounty hunter allies. Rundas, Ghor, and Gandrayda became the Commanders of her Space Pirate army. It worked every time it was used, except on Samus.




Except killing Kain with its heat wave?

Originally posted by The Scenario
Let's see...the robots are called Tinbots, so assuming they are made of tin gives us a melting point of 230 Celsius and a boiling point of 2602 Celsius. Given that it also turns living things to ash it must be pretty hot.



Yes yes, Kain has resistance to normal sunlight. That doesn't necessarily mean he's immune to a more intense blast or standing next to a star. Raziel has a Sunlight Glyph that kills adult vampires despite their immunity. About Ing, I don't actually know if they're vulnerable to normal sunlight. It's hard to explain, but the planet they're on, Aether, doesn't have a sun. Instead, there is the Light of Aether, a probably magical energy source within the planet that serves the purpose of replacing the sun. Scans say it contains solar energy and several other things. It's weird, and it's also what powers the Light Beam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBqLpKhOH1g#t=10m4s



I say unlikely since Samus can counter Kain TK throwing her in several ways, one of which would be to turn into an actual ball. She can fly, Kain wouldn't be able to hold her still, and in mid air she can go right into a screw attack. What spell, specifically? I can't think of any spell Kain has that could get past Samus' suit. Same with the blood powers, they have no way past the suit.
Since the symbiote controls your mind, obviously.




Let's start with Rundas. Before Dark Samus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjI7Fe6B4j8#t=7m35s

After Dark Samus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjo-LbUz6k8#t=3m35s

Next up, Ghor. Before Dark Samus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHCpZ3t0kt4#t=2m22s

After Dark Samus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFL240Bb0l0#t=13s

Gandrada before Dark Samus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHKZefebYtk#t=32s

After Dark Samus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onNvwfHCOcA







Dark Samus controlled a significant portion of the Space Pirates and all of Samus' bounty hunter allies. Rundas, Ghor, and Gandrayda became the Commanders of her Space Pirate army. It worked every time it was used, except on Samus.




Except killing Kain with its heat wave?

Fair enough deduction. Although you know Tin is not the most sturdy of metals.

We know hes immune to sunlight, e.g. its nothing to him, its not even a weakness. Why the glyph which is arguably not even canon can destroy them is something specific to the magic of the glyph.

Since when turning into a ball counters TK? please tell me you have a logical explanation why this would make it harder, and not easier for Kain. What is this based on? show me the thrust power of her suit then please. Blood shower, infact, I need proof of Samus' suit having any magical resitance, not sure it would even protect against most of kains powers unless they create physical manifestations like energy blasts or lightning. Thats not evidence of her mind being stronger than w/e is mind contrlling, shes never faced magic of the mind or an actual mind control, the symbiote is trying to possess.

So the only thing I have not seen is Samus resisting it, also this looks like corruption/suggestion especially based on the second one, not her actually puppetering like Kain would do to Samus. Do we actually see her do it?

A guy who can survive far more than rocks wont be destroyed by a bomb whos feat is thus.

Has Samus any soul resistance at all?

Originally posted by Burning thought
We know hes immune to sunlight, e.g. its nothing to him, its not even a weakness. Why the glyph which is arguably not even canon can destroy them is something specific to the magic of the glyph.


Used to be, though. As I recall, Kain used factories to create ridiculous amounts of smoke and block out/weaken Nosgoth's sunlight, specifically to build up resistance.



Well, what's Kain going to do with his TK? Tossing Samus around isn't really going to hinder her, especially given her own fighting style has her flipping and jumping most of the time anyway. Trying to bind her limbs specifically would fail if she has no limbs, and she's perfectly capable of fighting in ball form via copious amounts of explosives. Thrust power of her suit?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wJMs6Zqcxs#t=1m42s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRHw4YaiLgA#t=2m50s
You mean like that?

Blood Shower...don't you need to prove that can go through obstacles in the first place? I don't see any reason to assume magic would automatically go through the armor. It's a suit of armor with a force field held together by willpower and concentration, and it isn't like Samus has never fought supernatural or intangible opponents before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQn6vT91Sqs#t=1m30s

Heck, her ship has to intercept telepathic messages because she can't receive them herself. I've already shown you an attempted possession fail, too, so that seems pretty good for supernatural resistance.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psb6La8i1Z0#t=39s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApC74XffPEk#t=9m35s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R95Wr77EImI&#t=7m50s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByaykRPSsPE#t=8m35s

I suppose you missed Dark Samus puppeteering Rundas. Oh, and when it says "corruption," that's the term for phazon poisoning. Normally, too much phazon just makes you go insane (Samus resisted this, too) but when there's an intelligent force like Dark Samus around it just lets her mind control you. Samus resisted up to 99% corruption level, where most of her body was completely corrupted, yet her mind never faltered. Personally, I don't think Kain has anything on that.




She has killed souls before. Depending on how you choose to define "life-energy," which Metroids eat, that's a yes.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Used to be, though. As I recall, Kain used factories to create ridiculous amounts of smoke and block out/weaken Nosgoth's sunlight, specifically to build up resistance.



Well, what's Kain going to do with his TK? Tossing Samus around isn't really going to hinder her, especially given her own fighting style has her flipping and jumping most of the time anyway. Trying to bind her limbs specifically would fail if she has no limbs, and she's perfectly capable of fighting in ball form via copious amounts of explosives. Thrust power of her suit?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wJMs6Zqcxs#t=1m42s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRHw4YaiLgA#t=2m50s
You mean like that?

Blood Shower...don't you need to prove that can go through obstacles in the first place? I don't see any reason to assume magic would automatically go through the armor. It's a suit of armor with a force field held together by willpower and concentration, and it isn't like Samus has never fought supernatural or intangible opponents before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQn6vT91Sqs#t=1m30s

Heck, her ship has to intercept telepathic messages because she can't receive them herself. I've already shown you an attempted possession fail, too, so that seems pretty good for supernatural resistance.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psb6La8i1Z0#t=39s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApC74XffPEk#t=9m35s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R95Wr77EImI&#t=7m50s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByaykRPSsPE#t=8m35s

I suppose you missed Dark Samus puppeteering Rundas. Oh, and when it says "corruption," that's the term for phazon poisoning. Normally, too much phazon just makes you go insane (Samus resisted this, too) but when there's an intelligent force like Dark Samus around it just lets her mind control you. Samus resisted up to 99% corruption level, where most of her body was completely corrupted, yet her mind never faltered. Personally, I don't think Kain has anything on that.




She has killed souls before. Depending on how you choose to define "life-energy," which Metroids eat, that's a yes.

That was in the late era, since then though hes proven he himself can stand in any era in Nosgoth unfazed by light, whether his minions could do the same is unkown.

Well it is because how is she going to aim at him with guns or attack him with bombs if he keeps launching her through the air? No I meant how powerful is the thrust that lets her fly.

It doesnt touch obstacles, blood shower calls the blood to Kain, it doesnt send blood out to the enemies you must be thinking of blood gout where Kain actually fires his own blood. Unless forcefields have stopped blood magic before then thats useless, its not going to stop her blood being torn from her body and her inevitable cardiac arrest and body shut down.

If Kain tries to possess her, maybe but thats amibgious, Kains got possession AND mind powers, if she cant even recieve telepathy then she probably has little to no mental power or resistance, easy game.

Your calling it mind control but now apprently this Dark phazon corrupts and dark Samus seems to just control the corrupted. Your comparing things to Kains sorcery or mental control that are nothing alike. It would be like me using Kains resistance to physical damage to say he can resist being frozen. "nothing on it"? he doesnt use Dark phazon or anything of the like ,he uses sorcery which this confirms is not faced by Samus and so how can she ever resist?

I found this one Phazon on the metroid wiki;



So its nothing to do with actual mind control of any kind, its just corruption, if anything it destroys the mind, not puppeteers it.

Hard to define then isnt it, if its never really compared to the spirit...life energy could be any number of things. So far Kain can kill her with pretty much anything in his arsenal while shes tossed around literally like a ball. Maybe for lulz he will play ball with her for years until she dies of old age (if she can?).

This is spite in Samus' favor, she could easily be placed in the 40K verse next to some of their great heroes

Originally posted by Burning thought
That was in the late era, since then though hes proven he himself can stand in any era in Nosgoth unfazed by light, whether his minions could do the same is unkown.

Evidence for that one?



Note the video I posted before, the one where Samus launches a hundred feet upwards and can still shoot. Her fighting style is mostly made up of tossing herself through the air and I doubt Kain really target her moving like that anyway. The thrust that let's Samus fly is her jumps. The Space Jump upgrade lets her do unlimited spin jumps.





See, you're going to need to prove that "doesn't touch obstacles" thing first. You'd need to prove that Kain can still call/influence the blood when there is a substantial obstacle in the way. The force field field blocks demonic possession and telepathy; magic is not much of a stretch given that Samus has fought magic wielding foes before.




Can't receive telepathy, as in telepathic signals cannot directly access her mind.

http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Alimbic_Datashade

She usually just scans them. You know, because of the force field and suit in the way. Kain can't access her mind because of this, you realize. He can't control her mind if he can't reach it, and even then her willpower and resistance to such things would make her more or less immune to Kain's mind control.



Dark Samus. Phazon. Dark Samus is made of phazon, but there is no dark phazon. Now that that's out of the way, it is not "corruption" in the way you're using the term. It's not slow, and it's not using temptation or offerings or anything like that. It's a radioactive poison, one that Dark Samus can control you with once its in your system. Resisting that kind of assault does, in fact require some good mental fortitude. They're both mind control, and need a strong will to resist. Same thing, slightly different mechanism.




The evidence shown contradicts it or support it depending on context. That scan is something from the first Metroid Prime, with Space Pirates experimenting with it. The difference being back then there was no Dark Samus controlling it, so the victims simply went insane. Yes, phazon can cause brain damage, but it can also disintegrate things on contact and bind ghosts and spirits to the mortal plane. Point being phazon is a context based, plot based material that just does "whatever." In the specific instance of Space Pirates injecting phazon into their blood or eating phazon mushrooms, yes, it caused brain damage and increased muscle mass. In the specific instance of Dark Samus implanting a phazon "seed of corruption," there is no evidence of brain damage in any of the 4 Hunters. In fact, take another look at the videos I linked you earlier: Rundas was being directly puppeted by Dark Samus, Ghor went after Samus' ship to prevent her from escaping, and Gandrayda set a trap disguised as a Galactic Federation Trooper. Do any of them appear to have any brain damage at all? Aside from suddenly obeying Dark Samus, none of them have reduced faculties at all. Except Rundas, but again: puppet.






No physical form, victim dies without it, compared to an "essence." Sounds suitably soul sucky.

So far, Samus kills Kain with a single shot of the plasma beam, has resistance to or immunity to everything he can dish out, and can kill him as a ball. Samus probably will end up dying of old age, though Kain would'nt be so lucky. (These points are still be discussed in other paragraphs, please don't assume you've you won them.)

Originally posted by The Scenario
Evidence for that one?



Note the video I posted before, the one where Samus launches a hundred feet upwards and can still shoot. Her fighting style is mostly made up of tossing herself through the air and I doubt Kain really target her moving like that anyway. The thrust that let's Samus fly is her jumps. The Space Jump upgrade lets her do unlimited spin jumps.





See, you're going to need to prove that "doesn't touch obstacles" thing first. You'd need to prove that Kain can still call/influence the blood when there is a substantial obstacle in the way. The force field field blocks demonic possession and telepathy; magic is not much of a stretch given that Samus has fought magic wielding foes before.




Can't receive telepathy, as in telepathic signals cannot directly access her mind.

http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Alimbic_Datashade

She usually just scans them. You know, because of the force field and suit in the way. Kain can't access her mind because of this, you realize. He can't control her mind if he can't reach it, and even then her willpower and resistance to such things would make her more or less immune to Kain's mind control.



Dark Samus. Phazon. Dark Samus is made of phazon, but there is no dark phazon. Now that that's out of the way, it is not "corruption" in the way you're using the term. It's not slow, and it's not using temptation or offerings or anything like that. It's a radioactive poison, one that Dark Samus can control you with once its in your system. Resisting that kind of assault does, in fact require some good mental fortitude. They're both mind control, and need a strong will to resist. Same thing, slightly different mechanism.




The evidence shown contradicts it or support it depending on context. That scan is something from the first Metroid Prime, with Space Pirates experimenting with it. The difference being back then there was no Dark Samus controlling it, so the victims simply went insane. Yes, phazon can cause brain damage, but it can also disintegrate things on contact and bind ghosts and spirits to the mortal plane. Point being phazon is a context based, plot based material that just does "whatever." In the specific instance of Space Pirates injecting phazon into their blood or eating phazon mushrooms, yes, it caused brain damage and increased muscle mass. In the specific instance of Dark Samus implanting a phazon "seed of corruption," there is no evidence of brain damage in any of the 4 Hunters. In fact, take another look at the videos I linked you earlier: Rundas was being directly puppeted by Dark Samus, Ghor went after Samus' ship to prevent her from escaping, and Gandrayda set a trap disguised as a Galactic Federation Trooper. Do any of them appear to have any brain damage at all? Aside from suddenly obeying Dark Samus, none of them have reduced faculties at all. Except Rundas, but again: puppet.






No physical form, victim dies without it, compared to an "essence." Sounds suitably soul sucky.

So far, Samus kills Kain with a single shot of the plasma beam, has resistance to or immunity to everything he can dish out, and can kill him as a ball. Samus probably will end up dying of old age, though Kain would'nt be so lucky. (These points are still be discussed in other paragraphs, please don't assume you've you won them.)

The whole game is set in Nosgoths distant past and Kain spends the majority of it outside, both in the Sarafan stronghold and in the marshes etc.

Yes because her launching upwards under her own power is teh same as Kain throwing her around...no...so she cant fly? she just jumps?

I dont have to prove any of those things, it never comes up in the spells "cant do" list, if you want to prove Samus' suit can counter magic then go and do so, making up reasons why blood shower wont work randomly without evidence is typical of your argument style. Its enough of a stretch here, forcefields and such work on forces striking them, where no force strikes them other than Samus' blood pouring inside her suit (assuming it cant get to Kain) then it wont help her.

You seem to be just making things up here, youve yet to show me any actual resistance, just things she does such as opening transmissions, shes never actually fought sorcery or mind control from what youve actually shown.

Its a physical substence that damages brain cells and makes you work for it once its taken you, theres no comparison there to actual mental control but more as the source says corruption, your reaching. And resisting that assault just means you can resist phazon itself.

I looked at the videos and I am seeing nothing different to what this source states, brain damage and control from Phazon itself, Dark Samus is simply another entity working for the Phazon because if I am correct, she is also part of the phazon. Its like physical possession, alike to head crabs in half life only with phazon instead.

I wouldnt describe the spirit as "an energy source" tbh, in this case theres little evidence to compare them. Parasites that suck energy of an unkown type is not =/= sorcerous devouring of the spirit specifically.

Also thats just gas, I have countered the plasma beam, you see my counter is proven, TK or teleport to dodge while so far your evidence is the fact it can melt tin.... and the rest is nonsense, your claiming immunity when your just making up theories and not backing them up for pretty much everything. Using your baseless comparisons and your opinions on them as proof. Also kill him as a ball? wut? Kain cant die of old age, hence why her being thrown about with TK for 100 years or so is an easy tactic, youve yet to show her escaping TK like this.

So Kain wins with his most simple technique until you can prove otherwise, claims dont add up to much dear.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The whole game is set in Nosgoths distant past and Kain spends the majority of it outside, both in the Sarafan stronghold and in the marshes etc.

Fair enough. Still does nothing to help him against a blast of light much more intense than mere sunlight, which is still capable f setting things on fire.



Kain can't throw her as far as she herself can jump, and she's adept at landing on her feet or shooting in mid-air. For instance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkx8DKZ5MFs#t=2m40s
And technically it's not flight, no. On the other hand, Samus never has to touch the ground if she doesn't want to. Nothing really prevents her from going into a spin jump as soon as Kain throws her, so she'd be back in control again immediately, and most likely still shooting at Kain.



You're claiming that the spell will do something it has never doe before; namely, affect someone through an airtight, vacuum sealed, force field protected suit. That is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. Samus' suit has blocked possession, attacks from ghosts, transdimensional attacks, and doesn't seem bothered by magic blasts. Further, I'm just asking how Kain will manipulate Samus' blood at all when the suit is shown to block psychic powers such as telepathy.



It's hard to show without dialogue, you know? In any case, there is still the matter of Samus being outright unable to receive a psychic message, plus the suit blocking demonic possession, which indicates her mind is protected. If you want Samus' personal resistance, just look at the her reaction to phazon corruption. Which didn't work, you realize.



It's a psysical substance that exhibits physical, interdimential, and outright supernatural traits depending on various situations. Sometimes it's highly radioactive, sometimes it's a power source, sometimes it brings inanimate objects to life.. That's not to mention a phazon Leviathan splitting a planet between two dimension and driving ghosts insane. Those Chozo Ghosts I showed you earlier are normally peaceful, ascended to a higher plane of existence, but alas phazon still drove them insane. Ghosts don't have brain cells, incidentally. The point is you can't generalize phazon except in specific circumstances like Dark Samus actually trying to mind control people. You're arguing against the evidence of Space Pirates who were trying to kill Dark Samus suddenly worshiping her as a goddess, or the other 3 Hunters becoming Dark Samus' commanders, and Rundas in particular being a puppet. Neither of those is corruption, at least not the way you're implying it. Still, resistance to corruption is still mental resistance, and Kain's mind control has no feats to compete with Dark Samus' control.



Please explain how they are suffering brain damage, and indication you are using to determine this. The Elite Pirates that are stated to suffer degeneration are essentially mindless berserkers. Neither Ghor nor Gandrayda show that trait, seeing as both attempted to trap Samus, and Rundas is explicitly possessed. Dark Samus is an odd case, since we're not sure of her origins. She was originally the Metroid Prime, source of phazon, before stealing one of Samus' suits to inhabit. Regardless, she shows control of phazon rather than the other way around, given that she became the ruler of Phaaze and commanded the Space Pirates. It's not entirely physical, though, unlike a headrab, given that it has affected hosts, and Dark Samus does this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHS1xGy5upE#t=8m47s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gpi_uwOX0g#t=4m50s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vle5Ytlx1zs#t=8m10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaqKPjx719Y#t=15s

Note how a wraith of Dark Samus (no official name) comes out of each hunter as they die. Last video is just Dark Samus possessing a giant cyborg brain.



I wouldn't describe blood as an energy source, either, but vampires (and other creatures) gain energy from it. It's the Metroid's food source, of course they get energy. Mystical life energy with no physical form, though, is fairly spiritual.



...you never countered the plasma beam. You asked what the metal it melted was and I gave a temperature range and the point got dropped. There was no counter at any point, unless you plan on Kain to dodge with his slow teleport. As it stands Kain dies plasma turning him to ash. Yes, Samus can kill Kain while in Morph Ball, that is what I typed. The Power Bomb is more than enough to kill Kain while he plays around with with a ball. Samus can fight out of range of Kain's TK, you've never shown him using it on an agile target, and Samus can still shoot or change direction in mid-air.



Which technique? TK isn't really going to work until you prove its range, force, precision, accuracy and speed.

Show me a spin jump, also what youve shown me there is her just jumping backwards. This is all under her own power, she does not know when or how Kain is going to throw her, he coud just counter TK her gun arm every time its trained on him, and since most of her weapons seem to have computerised lock ons and such I cant see them locking onto everything.

I am claiming the magic does what it has always done, drain the blood of a target. Your cliaming this suit can resist or stop that, prove it. I dont have to prove that it cant. it cant recieve telepathic transmissions, youve yet to actually prove it blocks telepathy, mind powers or Tk....

Because Phazon unlike Kains powers work on a physical basis, radiation, energy are all physical mediums in a sense, not supernatural or spiritual like Kains. Not being able to recieve telepathic messaages does not equel telepathic resistance.

No, I just agreed with the Phazon corrupting the brain physcally and damaging brain cells. To the point, like Dark Samus they become almost like phazon.

Tk counters the plasma beam and tin is a soft, weak metal, a metal far below Kains durability and the teleport is a good idea as well, its almost like you belive the plasma beam is really fast. How? when shes being thrown around like a ball? an the power bomb blew up some rocks, thats it....

Originally posted by Burning thought
Show me a spin jump, also what youve shown me there is her just jumping backwards. This is all under her own power, she does not know when or how Kain is going to throw her, he coud just counter TK her gun arm every time its trained on him, and since most of her weapons seem to have computerised lock ons and such I cant see them locking onto everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRHw4YaiLgA#t=2m50s
Getting hit by TK would be no different from getting hit by any attack with knockback, and she can recover from that easily. Prove he can target her gun arm every time, on an agile moving target.



You're ignoring a vital part, though. How does the spell manipulate the blood? Can you prove it would go through an obstacle? Samus can't receive telepathic trasmissions because the suit blocks them, what's the problem here?



I don't think you quite understand how phazon works yet. Short answer being: it doesn't. It's not always physical, since it can affect ghosts and drive them insane. It's not always deadly, since it can control people. It's not always consistent, since it has split a planet between dimensions before. It's an energy source, it can bring rocks to life, it can screw with time and space, it can enhance psychic powers or make a race of demons. It can do anything. The problem here is that you're trying to generalize something that has a different effect every time it's used. Not being able to receive telepathic messages equals not being able to receive telepathic commands. How does Kain control minds?



It doesn't always do that, though. None of the mind controlled creatures in Metroid Prime 3 show evidence of brain damage. Are you really going to trust a wiki over the several cutscenes I have shown you that contradict it?



OK, so how does TK counter the plasma beam? You have yet to say exactly how. Kain can't teleport faster than Samus can spam plasma beam shots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh2lfYJ-xQs#t=4m58s
The Power Bomb vaporized the Metroid Queen. All of it.

As long as he can Tk, he can hit her gun, your again claiming the whole "prove X, even though X is irrelevent" thing again, you reach a wal of argumentl but you cant climb over it so you repeat yourself and hope it goes away. And no, getting grabbed and tossed in random directions, or just picked up, strangled etc, bands of force.

prove WHAT can go through an obstacle?, nothing is going through anything....

Thier not telepathic commands though, that would be more alike to suggestion. Also, again no, telepathy is not the same as mind control.

lol, "several cutscenes that contradict it", your not showing me any actual storyline, your showing me a cutscene that doesnt actually say anything, then you label it on what its showing. Show me Samus' transmission or suit, or w/e actually saying their mind controlled.

It stops the charging, single line shooting weapon from hitting what its aimin at by throwing Samus sideways, backwards and flat on her face, or her gun. I woudnt be surprised if Kain could make Samus shoot herself in the foot.

A slow charge of no use, that required her to be inside it vs a creaute that, has what durability? I find it hard to believe it has star core.

Originally posted by Burning thought
As long as he can Tk, he can hit her gun, your again claiming the whole "prove X, even though X is irrelevent" thing again, you reach a wal of argumentl but you cant climb over it so you repeat yourself and hope it goes away. And no, getting grabbed and tossed in random directions, or just picked up, strangled etc, bands of force.

You haven't shown that Kain can TK a moving target yet. Could you, please?



He's exerting a force on the blood, right? Now, do you think that force would just appear inside the suit, or would Kain have you direct that force to the blood first? Picture it like Kain's TK force: it's a projectile, meaning that if he wants to move, say, a block, he fires his TK "bolt" which travels through the air before hitting and moving the block. The force has to start somewhere, and if it starts outside the suit it isn't getting in. You'd need to prove it starts inside the suit. Just show me Kain using it through an obstacle that's as resistant as Samus' suit.



No, how does Kain use it? From gameplay he appears to just project his consciousness into the target and then controls them like his own body. His consciousness isn't getting through the suit, because it's basically telepathic control.



Seriously? I'm asking you, at what point in any of those cutscene does anyone appear to have brain damage? It's your claim that phazon can only damage brain cells, what I am showing is characters operating at their full mental capacity. I gave you before and after shots of all of them, showing that Ghor and Gandrayda are still just as smart after corruption as before. If there was brain damage, it would be shown to affect their mental health. It has not. The Space Pirates, too, are still operating just as competently with Dark Samus as without her, save that they worship her now.

You want the scans I already showed you, then?









http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Pirate_Data



Wouldn't damage her, though, and you still have yet to prove that Kain can TK a moving target, or one as fast as Samus. Nor will that stop the huge explosion of the Diffusion or Wide Beams.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEFyM9NvzuM#t=11m46s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh2lfYJ-xQs#t=2m13s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW1UP_ouCQ0#t=1m36s
Nor would that stop any homing missiles.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roLtg7pZZvQ#t=3m51
Doesn't need to be star core.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You haven't shown that Kain can TK a moving target yet. Could you, please?



He's exerting a force on the blood, right? Now, do you think that force would just appear inside the suit, or would Kain have you direct that force to the blood first? Picture it like Kain's TK force: it's a projectile, meaning that if he wants to move, say, a block, he fires his TK "bolt" which travels through the air before hitting and moving the block. The force has to start somewhere, and if it starts outside the suit it isn't getting in. You'd need to prove it starts inside the suit. Just show me Kain using it through an obstacle that's as resistant as Samus' suit.



No, how does Kain use it? From gameplay he appears to just project his consciousness into the target and then controls them like his own body. His consciousness isn't getting through the suit, because it's basically telepathic control.



Seriously? I'm asking you, at what point in any of those cutscene does anyone appear to have brain damage? It's your claim that phazon can only damage brain cells, what I am showing is characters operating at their full mental capacity. I gave you before and after shots of all of them, showing that Ghor and Gandrayda are still just as smart after corruption as before. If there was brain damage, it would be shown to affect their mental health. It has not. The Space Pirates, too, are still operating just as competently with Dark Samus as without her, save that they worship her now.

You want the scans I already showed you, then?









http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Pirate_Data



Wouldn't damage her, though, and you still have yet to prove that Kain can TK a moving target, or one as fast as Samus. Nor will that stop the huge explosion of the Diffusion or Wide Beams.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEFyM9NvzuM#t=11m46s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh2lfYJ-xQs#t=2m13s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW1UP_ouCQ0#t=1m36s
Nor would that stop any homing missiles.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roLtg7pZZvQ#t=3m51
Doesn't need to be star core.

You didnt counter my post, also Kain can create telekinetic force around targeted objects, why would objects moving make a difference? you need to think out your arguments before you try and shout "prove this irrelevency A, AND THEN! prove irrelevency B!" prove Samus can target Vampires with her weapons.

Magic I would imagine? Kains TK is not a projectile, he can use it as one, but other than that no, this is probably why your bringing up daft points like above or trying to use Samus' suit as a barrier. Theres no physical or kinetic force hitting Kains suit here...and with TK, theres a kinetic force created by Kain around said objects.

Whut? no...telepathy is speaking to another through your mind, Kains not speaking, hes wrenching control of the mind with his own power.

Well theyve gone from acting of their own accord to seemingly stopping at nothing to kill Samus, thats pretty brain damaged to me.

- Power of suggestion, not mental submission. As for the "light of phazon lead us", this is again what I said before, Phazon, as per the Wiki causes brain damage and then takes control, this is all physical like the Phazon itself though, apprently you cant cause such control without it touching you first.

Missles<TK, and I like how you show me a couple of videos of Samus slowly charging up her gun, if anything it takes a few seconds before she can fire, assuming she can even fire before Kain beheads her and tears her ass out of that suit shes going ot be hitting nothing but air and thats if she can target it. Shes trying to fight someone who wthin about a second or less can be anywhere on the battlefield, as a pool of mist or physical.

Why doesnt it need to be beyond the level of Kains durability to beat him? Also you show me one lump of energy hitting her? so?

Originally posted by Burning thought
You didnt counter my post, also Kain can create telekinetic force around targeted objects, why would objects moving make a difference? you need to think out your arguments before you try and shout "prove this irrelevency A, AND THEN! prove irrelevency B!" prove Samus can target Vampires with her weapons.

You need to prove your claims, though. I'm countering by asking questions. Can you show me Kain doing what you claim, such as creating telekinetic force around an object, and then prove that a moving target makes no difference? How about range? It won't help if Samus can shoot him from too far away for him to do anything, or if she's too fast for him to target with TK. Both of these are entirely relevant to your argument, so it won't work if you can't prove them. Do vampires have any jamming abilities that might prevent targeting? Otherwise, here's Samus targeting ghosts, close enough: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP6o6oXNFEI#t=5m45s



So Kain would create kinetic force around the suit, like he does here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlN1irkrNk0#t=5m38s

There's no evidence he could create forces inside other objects, perhaps he needs line of sight. In any case, you'd need to prove that Kain is capable of creating force inside the suit. The above video indicates not.



Not necessarily. Telepathy is just mental mental contact. Mind reading, mind control, implanting/changing memories, and sending messages can all stem from that initial contact. Point being, if Samus' suit blocks that initial contact, it's quite difficult to do anything else.



Except they haven't, Rundas excluded. They still act of their own accord, just following orders. Ghor, for instance, took over Skytown and hindered Samus' efforts to destroy the Leviathan by cutting off the computer network. This prevented her from building a bomb large enough to take out the Leviathan's energy shield. Similarly, Gandrayda set a trap for Samus by disguising as a Gallactic Federation Trooper, and lured Samus to an area where she had the advantage. That's not brain damage, unless you are suggesting that thinking you can beat Samus is itself evidence of brain damage. No, for an actual example of phazon induced brain damage, look no further than the Elite Pirates or their successors, the Berserker Knights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMukoSeXPhI#t=6m55s



Just not the part with the brain damage every time. Phazon madness is a continuous berserker rage at everything that exists, to the point that victims (read: Elite Pirates) had to be sealed up just to keep them from killing everything they saw. Dark Samus' control is entirely different from that, as you can see. We've seen Rundas being a puppet, that isn't suggestion, either.



Show me Kain catching/deflecting 5 missiles at once, or anything that could prevent a Diffusion Missiles from freezing him in it's huge blast radius. Samus can instantly charge her gun if she dodges while charging BTW. Kain can't teleport that fast or that far, and his mist won't help against the power bomb's vacuum or a diffusion missile.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGXy-tZ2wwk#t=9m20s (3 here, but max is 5 homing missiles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE0WZLJ2jIY#t=5m58s (diffusion missile)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_sgNUX5DnQ#t=2m (quick beam charge while dodging)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8CN0b-nQdA#t=56s (power bomb vacuum)

And just in case you missed it the last time, here's some beam spam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW1UP_ouCQ0#t=1m36s



Because Power Bomb spreads a high temperature heat wave over a large area and can vaporize humans (and Metroid Queens) instantly. Kain has no heat resistance to something like that. Incidentally, that "lump of energy" was the plasma beam bouncing off of the Metroid Queen.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You need to prove your claims, though. I'm countering by asking questions. Can you show me Kain doing what you claim, such as creating telekinetic force around an object, and then prove that a moving target makes no difference? How about range? It won't help if Samus can shoot him from too far away for him to do anything, or if she's too fast for him to target with TK. Both of these are entirely relevant to your argument, so it won't work if you can't prove them. Do vampires have any jamming abilities that might prevent targeting? Otherwise, here's Samus targeting ghosts, close enough: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP6o6oXNFEI#t=5m45s



So Kain would create kinetic force around the suit, like he does here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlN1irkrNk0#t=5m38s

There's no evidence he could create forces inside other objects, perhaps he needs line of sight. In any case, you'd need to prove that Kain is capable of creating force inside the suit. The above video indicates not.



Not necessarily. Telepathy is just mental mental contact. Mind reading, mind control, implanting/changing memories, and sending messages can all stem from that initial contact. Point being, if Samus' suit blocks that initial contact, it's quite difficult to do anything else.



Except they haven't, Rundas excluded. They still act of their own accord, just following orders. Ghor, for instance, took over Skytown and hindered Samus' efforts to destroy the Leviathan by cutting off the computer network. This prevented her from building a bomb large enough to take out the Leviathan's energy shield. Similarly, Gandrayda set a trap for Samus by disguising as a Gallactic Federation Trooper, and lured Samus to an area where she had the advantage. That's not brain damage, unless you are suggesting that thinking you can beat Samus is itself evidence of brain damage. No, for an actual example of phazon induced brain damage, look no further than the Elite Pirates or their successors, the Berserker Knights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMukoSeXPhI#t=6m55s



Just not the part with the brain damage every time. Phazon madness is a continuous berserker rage at everything that exists, to the point that victims (read: Elite Pirates) had to be sealed up just to keep them from killing everything they saw. Dark Samus' control is entirely different from that, as you can see. We've seen Rundas being a puppet, that isn't suggestion, either.



Show me Kain catching/deflecting 5 missiles at once, or anything that could prevent a Diffusion Missiles from freezing him in it's huge blast radius. Samus can instantly charge her gun if she dodges while charging BTW. Kain can't teleport that fast or that far, and his mist won't help against the power bomb's vacuum or a diffusion missile.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGXy-tZ2wwk#t=9m20s (3 here, but max is 5 homing missiles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE0WZLJ2jIY#t=5m58s (diffusion missile)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_sgNUX5DnQ#t=2m (quick beam charge while dodging)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8CN0b-nQdA#t=56s (power bomb vacuum)

And just in case you missed it the last time, here's some beam spam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW1UP_ouCQ0#t=1m36s



Because Power Bomb spreads a high temperature heat wave over a large area and can vaporize humans (and Metroid Queens) instantly. Kain has no heat resistance to something like that. Incidentally, that "lump of energy" was the plasma beam bouncing off of the Metroid Queen.

So your saying Kain does not have TK now? again, I dont think ill reply to your posts here until you stop asking irrelevencies, your mocking me again like before. ive shown you TK, you claiming random things are going to stop Kain doing something then pretending I have to disprove your belief their a problem.

What are you even saying here? makes no sense, he creates kinetic force on the Sarafan and throws him, he didnt use a projectile and he didnt have to aim, he just gestures roughply to what he wants, hence why its telekinetic force from his mind.

How does he have line of sight to blood which is inside the body? your not making any sense again, your reaching desperatly that Samus wearing a suit apprently gives her some random magic immunity...

I never said he catches them at once, he only needs to toss one at the others or at Samus or just toss it back into her as it leaves the weapon, their damn slow.

Beam spam? something retconned in newer games it seems, the plasma gun does not do that anymore unless you can show me in the newer games, although ofc, she can only do it in a single direction.

The power bomb as you have shown can barely smash rocks, which>>the queen apprently. Kain being above both by a vast margin means hes pretty safe.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So your saying Kain does not have TK now? again, I dont think ill reply to your posts here until you stop asking irrelevencies, your mocking me again like before. ive shown you TK, you claiming random things are going to stop Kain doing something then pretending I have to disprove your belief their a problem.

No, I'm asking you politely to prove what you are claiming. Nothing more, nothing less. Samus is fast, can you guarantee that Kain's TK can catch her? That is all.



But, the force appears around the Sarafan's armor. Not inside it, which is my point. I'm asking you to prove the claim that Kain can TK inside (or on the other side of) an object without TKing the whole thing. It may be easier to find an example of Kain using it on a target he doesn't have line of sight to.



I'm just asking that you prove the claim. If you can, you win. He'd need line of sight to the body, I suppose, or know where the blood is. Still, the suit blocks possession, telepathy, ghost attacks, interdimensional attacks, and magic blasts. Other magic is not reaching, I just want to see if you can prove your claim.



There will be 5 of them. If you want to claim Kain can manipulate more than one, or even just one, while dodging the others, you'd need some extraordinary proof. Like using TK on a moving object, for instance. Even then, you'll have proved he can take out 2 at most while the other three freeze him solid.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFL240Bb0l0#t=8m12s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhx9nsZK05c#t=1m5s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFdEOAzW1t4#t=52s



Haha. No. Turning the Metroid Queen to vapor is the feat.

Originally posted by The Scenario
No, I'm asking you politely to prove what you are claiming. Nothing more, nothing less. Samus is fast, can you guarantee that Kain's TK can catch her? That is all.



But, the force appears around the Sarafan's armor. Not inside it, which is my point. I'm asking you to prove the claim that Kain can TK inside (or on the other side of) an object without TKing the whole thing. It may be easier to find an example of Kain using it on a target he doesn't have line of sight to.



I'm just asking that you prove the claim. If you can, you win. He'd need line of sight to the body, I suppose, or know where the blood is. Still, the suit blocks possession, telepathy, ghost attacks, interdimensional attacks, and magic blasts. Other magic is not reaching, I just want to see if you can prove your claim.



There will be 5 of them. If you want to claim Kain can manipulate more than one, or even just one, while dodging the others, you'd need some extraordinary proof. Like using TK on a moving object, for instance. Even then, you'll have proved he can take out 2 at most while the other three freeze him solid.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFL240Bb0l0#t=8m12s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhx9nsZK05c#t=1m5s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFdEOAzW1t4#t=52s



Haha. No. Turning the Metroid Queen to vapor is the feat.

Kains TK is not trying to "catch" or "chase" her around though, as I said before theres no projectile like you belive there is.

I never said Kains going to TK inside Samus' armour although, the very fact he Tks blood, which is inside the body proves this point anyway.

It blocks mostly physical powers by the looks of it, the rest is reaching simply due to limitations of waht the suit can transmit.

Prove they freeze anyone solid and that Kain couldnt just flex and smash the ice coating?

Yay youve actually proven something properly, now how is that going to help her?

All you showed me for the metroid queens "durability" is that she can take a shot to the face, a shot from something thats feat is melting...tin.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kains TK is not trying to "catch" or "chase" her around though, as I said before theres no projectile like you belive there is.

Samus can easily recover from being tossed, and I have shown you her shooting in mid air. Attempting to bind her limbs leads to morph ball and power bombs everywhere. What is TK going to do?



You haven't proven it through any obstacle, though. Or targeting a fast target, for that matter. Or range beyond a meter or two.



It can transmit telepathy just fine; it just doesn't contact Samus' mind, instead being converted to text. The stuff it blocks does indicate resistance to Kain's powers.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKQa7rDY7L8#t=2m20s (It's not water so much as a high temperature acidic jet fuel.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKQa7rDY7L8#t=5m28s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeD7IhRcleE#t=3m (This one's an achievement; the guy throws a boomerang, you freeze him, boomerang returns and shatters him.)

Kain probably could break the ice, but as I recall he's been damaged by snow before. Should definitely hurt. And as long as he's still for a split second, Samus can follow up with more attacks. The ice beam is a bit better about freezing than the missiles, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMz9noXASiQ#t=10m16s
Fire breathing dragons that are partially submerged in magma, for instance, still get frozen.



One hit with the plasma beam would set Kain on fire, The fire does the rest, I imagine. A charged shot is more likely to incinerate him instantly.



Not quite. Plasma beam, if you don't remember, is also know for setting things on fire and turning living things to ash in under a second. The power bomb incinerates the giant Metroid Queen immediately, and Kain has an explicit weakness to heat. This is rather open and shut, I think.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Samus can easily recover from being tossed, and I have shown you her shooting in mid air. Attempting to bind her limbs leads to morph ball and power bombs everywhere. What is TK going to do?



You haven't proven it through any obstacle, though. Or targeting a fast target, for that matter. Or range beyond a meter or two.



It can transmit telepathy just fine; it just doesn't contact Samus' mind, instead being converted to text. The stuff it blocks does indicate resistance to Kain's powers.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKQa7rDY7L8#t=2m20s (It's not water so much as a high temperature acidic jet fuel.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKQa7rDY7L8#t=5m28s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeD7IhRcleE#t=3m (This one's an achievement; the guy throws a boomerang, you freeze him, boomerang returns and shatters him.)

Kain probably could break the ice, but as I recall he's been damaged by snow before. Should definitely hurt. And as long as he's still for a split second, Samus can follow up with more attacks. The ice beam is a bit better about freezing than the missiles, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMz9noXASiQ#t=10m16s
Fire breathing dragons that are partially submerged in magma, for instance, still get frozen.



One hit with the plasma beam would set Kain on fire, The fire does the rest, I imagine. A charged shot is more likely to incinerate him instantly.



Not quite. Plasma beam, if you don't remember, is also know for setting things on fire and turning living things to ash in under a second. The power bomb incinerates the giant Metroid Queen immediately, and Kain has an explicit weakness to heat. This is rather open and shut, I think.

The thing is she wont have time to recover, she will be tossed around like ball without much she can do about it, TK is going to make it nigh impossible for not only ofr her to get close to Kain but to defend herself.

Flesh, muscle and bone is an obstacle, kain never has problems with it and again, your making up illogical counters then pretending I have to prove those things. Its like me saying Kains immune to her abilities because hes a vampire, go and prove shes fought a vampire.

It seems to me this telepathic message goes straight through the suit, the suit did not just absorb it or anything, Samus just seems incapable of hearing a telepathic, has she never been spoken to telepathically?

W/e it is, it still breaks the ice/gets free in about 5 seconds, considering Kain is so strong, ive yet to be convinced its going to be of any use at all.

Kain is immune to snow since early Blood omen

You base this purely on the fact it can melt Tin? one of the weakest and less dense metals known.

Its not an explicit weakness, more than one of the few things that can actually finish a vampire, Kain himself however has skin that can take frictions from Raziels claws, friction from soneone that has that much strength and pressure>smashing rock power bomb. Also the open and shut part is where Kain TKs Samus forever, therefore winning the battle or kills her with a teleport slash.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The thing is she wont have time to recover, she will be tossed around like ball without much she can do about it, TK is going to make it nigh impossible for not only ofr her to get close to Kain but to defend herself.

Kain has shown he can, at best, toss one person a small distance once. He's never done it quick succession the way you're suggesting, it's more like he throws Samus, then she shoots him. Further, why would Samus ever want to get close to Kain? She's primarily a ranged fighter, despite the fact that she's good in melee, too. In incidentall, what is TK's effective range? It won't help him if Samus is too far away.



Flesh, bone, and muscle do not have the supernatural resistance of Samus' suit, nor have you established that Kain's spells can simply bypass a wall of metal. You're making claims that need to be backed up, because if flesh and bone is all Kain's ever done it through he's in trouble. See, your analogy is failing because I'm not asking you for something so specific. I'm simply asking you to prove the assertion that Kain's spells ignore significant obstacles such as metal, or if it has affected any creature with known resistance to magic or supernatural effects. Flesh and bone are not similar enough to a metal suit with known resistance to supernatural effects for the same ability to ignore both. Samus has fought beings that are mostly soul, as well as animated corpses and zombies, and creatures that have a weakness to light. Metroids are energy vampires in a sense. In that way, Samus has fought beings very similar to vampires, which indicates Kain won't surprise her much.



What do you mean? In that instance, Samus' suit told her it received a telepathic communication and relayed it to her; that is, in fact, being spoken to telepathically. Unless you're asking if Samus been telepathically contacted without the suit, in which case I can't think of any instances. I feel it bears mentioning that Mother Brain was able to control the Metroids, and most other wildlife on Zebes, through telepathy. Can't say if she ever tried it on Samus, though.



Kain could originally be hurt by snow, and ice is a bit of a step up. I imagine it would be like being dunked in water, in addition to the explosion of the missile/beam. Kain'd be in for a bad day if Samus went for her signature "freeze it solid, then shatter it into a million pieces" strategy. Even if that doesn't work, the secondary effect it to slow the target down and she could follow with more attacks as I said.




That's just one feat, I don't why you choose to focus on it when there are others available, many of which are in my second post of this thread. Such as setting Space Pirates on fire and burning them to ash, or melting the other metal that was shown. So no, I am not basing it "purely" off of the Tinbots. I also based it the Nosgothic Vampire's known weakness to fire. Though I don't see what tin's density has to do with heat resistance, because that's what we're talking about. Kain has no such resistance, and in fact should have a weakness to the plasma beam, and as such the "burning to ash" ability of the plasma beam will be of great use.




Did you ever say how much friction there was, or what the temperature was? Or ever show any evidence of Raziel producing heat? I recall the first time you mentioned friction, but no actual evidence to support it. Again, smashing rocks is not the Power Bomb's only feat, why are ignoring the others I showed you? It vaporized the Metroid Queen in one shot, for instance, and is stated by Adam to do the same to humans over a large area. Kain's TK can't prevent Samus from laying a Power Bomb, and one of them would immediately force Kain to get away from Samus or face death, therefore giving her a chance to shoot him from out of his effective range. Samus is too fast for a teleport slash, and that would kill her in any case.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Kain has shown he can, at best, toss one person a small distance once. He's never done it quick succession the way you're suggesting, it's more like he throws Samus, then she shoots him. Further, why would Samus ever want to get close to Kain? She's primarily a ranged fighter, despite the fact that she's good in melee, too. In incidentall, what is TK's effective range? It won't help him if Samus is too far away.



Flesh, bone, and muscle do not have the supernatural resistance of Samus' suit, nor have you established that Kain's spells can simply bypass a wall of metal. You're making claims that need to be backed up, because if flesh and bone is all Kain's ever done it through he's in trouble. See, your analogy is failing because I'm not asking you for something so specific. I'm simply asking you to prove the assertion that Kain's spells ignore significant obstacles such as metal, or if it has affected any creature with known resistance to magic or supernatural effects. Flesh and bone are not similar enough to a metal suit with known resistance to supernatural effects for the same ability to ignore both. Samus has fought beings that are mostly soul, as well as animated corpses and zombies, and creatures that have a weakness to light. Metroids are energy vampires in a sense. In that way, Samus has fought beings very similar to vampires, which indicates Kain won't surprise her much.



What do you mean? In that instance, Samus' suit told her it received a telepathic communication and relayed it to her; that is, in fact, being spoken to telepathically. Unless you're asking if Samus been telepathically contacted without the suit, in which case I can't think of any instances. I feel it bears mentioning that Mother Brain was able to control the Metroids, and most other wildlife on Zebes, through telepathy. Can't say if she ever tried it on Samus, though.



Kain could originally be hurt by snow, and ice is a bit of a step up. I imagine it would be like being dunked in water, in addition to the explosion of the missile/beam. Kain'd be in for a bad day if Samus went for her signature "freeze it solid, then shatter it into a million pieces" strategy. Even if that doesn't work, the secondary effect it to slow the target down and she could follow with more attacks as I said.




That's just one feat, I don't why you choose to focus on it when there are others available, many of which are in my second post of this thread. Such as setting Space Pirates on fire and burning them to ash, or melting the other metal that was shown. So no, I am not basing it "purely" off of the Tinbots. I also based it the Nosgothic Vampire's known weakness to fire. Though I don't see what tin's density has to do with heat resistance, because that's what we're talking about. Kain has no such resistance, and in fact should have a weakness to the plasma beam, and as such the "burning to ash" ability of the plasma beam will be of great use.




Did you ever say how much friction there was, or what the temperature was? Or ever show any evidence of Raziel producing heat? I recall the first time you mentioned friction, but no actual evidence to support it. Again, smashing rocks is not the Power Bomb's only feat, why are ignoring the others I showed you? It vaporized the Metroid Queen in one shot, for instance, and is stated by Adam to do the same to humans over a large area. Kain's TK can't prevent Samus from laying a Power Bomb, and one of them would immediately force Kain to get away from Samus or face death, therefore giving her a chance to shoot him from out of his effective range. Samus is too fast for a teleport slash, and that would kill her in any case.

And theres only one person here. His TK requires flicks of his wrist, I dont know how fast you can flick your wrist but I am pretty sure you can do it more than once. As for range, Tk does not cover distance, its not a projectile as I said before. I would say logically? as far as Kain can see.

no but its got the same magic or tk resistance, zero. Yes you are, your making up random reasons why something shouldnt work and then pretending I have to prove it apprently without any logical basis.

Exactly, it "recieved" a communication, it seems Samus may be incapable of even hearing a message with or without the suit, and whats more, it seems the suit automatically recieved it as if the person sending knew the suit would. Yes well, if mother brain or w/e its called actually tried and failed, you would have a feat of mental resistance.

ONly your evidence is it freezing weak ass creatures for a few seconds, how would it slow someone down so fast? Kain could be running or w/e and just smash through the ice instantly as she attempts to form it.

What? burning men is even worse, are space pirates humans because I assume they can take more than a single shot? Also fire is no more a weakness as you put it than it is to a human, the difference is Kains particles have equel durability to pressures that would rip these things into tiny piecies, heat only works by burning/melting if it can dissasemble the particles that make up said body. Kains far more durable than any of these instances.

I need evidence to support a physical fundemental of movement/force now? And yes it can unless she lays it a good few meters away where Kains got her Tked, if anything kain could probably just TK toss the bomb as wel lif need be. "too fast"? youve not shown her any speed feats, nor precog to know where kain is going to teleport....

Originally posted by Burning thought
And theres only one person here. His TK requires flicks of his wrist, I dont know how fast you can flick your wrist but I am pretty sure you can do it more than once. As for range, Tk does not cover distance, its not a projectile as I said before. I would say logically? as far as Kain can see.

See, now you're assuming that using a psychic power and flicking your wrist take the same amount of effort. And then logically, Kain would need a feat for as far as he can see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlN1irkrNk0#t=5m39s
Hmmm. Kain grabs the guy, holds him there for 2 seconds, then makes a gesture and the guy goes flying. Samus has shot him dead by this point, unless there's something faster or continuous.



It has magic resistance, though no one in Metroid has TK except maybe Dark Samus and possibly Mellissa Bergman. I'm not making up reasons, I'm asking if Kain's ever bypassed something with supernatural resistance, because Samus' suit has resisted supernatural effects. If he hasn't, it's highly unlikely that blood shower will bypass the suit, especially because you have proven it bypasses obstacles between Kain and the target.


I wonder, though...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ANSwqRiqsU
Forgot about this. It certainly looks like Samus received a "thank you" vision from the the Alimbics after defeating Gorea. Combined with the earlier transcribing of a telepathic message and scanning of telepathic pockets, it seems Samus can choose whether or not a psychic effect gets through.



Your only evidence for blood shower is "weak ass creatures," so don't be doing that. Kain isn't that fast in the first place, and Samus has frozen creatures literally made of fire with the ice beam, and other creatures that were submerged in magma while frozen; that is some effective ice. Dunno why the ice missiles do that weird effect, though, because the beams don't.



Burning men? What? And no, Space Pirates are in fact more insectoid and tend to wear armor, not that it helps from being turned to ash, which is not, in fact, a worse feat. The amount of energy is takes to completely vaporize a living being full of water is huge. When creatures are hit by the plasma beam, they disintegrate, or did you not watch the videos I linked? Nosgothic vampires are shown to have a weakness to fire; it kills them much more easily than normal damage, especially because they catch fire so easily. Please give a reason that pressure resistance would equal heat resistance, though, because so far Kain has no resistance.



Yes, if you're going to claim that its temperature is higher than plasma, which you have not. Nor have you shown Raziel produce any heat with his claws. Give a specific temperature or at least prove it's hotter than plasma. Otherwise, you're basing that off of nothing. Kain still can't prevent Samus from laying the Power Bomb, and if he has to divert attention to it Samus has the advantage unless you show him TKing two objects at once.

Ah, yes, speed. Precog...maybe?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FoA05QEnEo#t=1m13s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4Xp_gRLB8M#t=1m10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHS1xGy5upE#t=34s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK7h0xvTb3U#t=10s (possible Precog?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6Yh1AzVhkw&#t=4m51s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glFPKDb9OyY#t=10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_sgNUX5DnQ#t=1m59s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exPn1E9uiy4

http://metroid.retropixel.net/metroid4/manual/m4_16.jpg
http://metroid.retropixel.net/metroidzm/manual/mzm_14.jpg (These being to establish reaction time)

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_013.png (Establishing distance)
http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_016.png (Establishing situation)
http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_017.png (Establishing speed)
http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_018.png (Further establishment -Note that she wasn't seen )

Originally posted by The Scenario
See, now you're assuming that using a psychic power and flicking your wrist take the same amount of effort. And then logically, Kain would need a feat for as far as he can see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlN1irkrNk0#t=5m39s
Hmmm. Kain grabs the guy, holds him there for 2 seconds, then makes a gesture and the guy goes flying. Samus has shot him dead by this point, unless there's something faster or continuous.



It has magic resistance, though no one in Metroid has TK except maybe Dark Samus and possibly Mellissa Bergman. I'm not making up reasons, I'm asking if Kain's ever bypassed something with supernatural resistance, because Samus' suit has resisted supernatural effects. If he hasn't, it's highly unlikely that blood shower will bypass the suit, especially because you have proven it bypasses obstacles between Kain and the target.


I wonder, though...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ANSwqRiqsU
Forgot about this. It certainly looks like Samus received a "thank you" vision from the the Alimbics after defeating Gorea. Combined with the earlier transcribing of a telepathic message and scanning of telepathic pockets, it seems Samus can choose whether or not a psychic effect gets through.



Your only evidence for blood shower is "weak ass creatures," so don't be doing that. Kain isn't that fast in the first place, and Samus has frozen creatures literally made of fire with the ice beam, and other creatures that were submerged in magma while frozen; that is some effective ice. Dunno why the ice missiles do that weird effect, though, because the beams don't.



Burning men? What? And no, Space Pirates are in fact more insectoid and tend to wear armor, not that it helps from being turned to ash, which is not, in fact, a worse feat. The amount of energy is takes to completely vaporize a living being full of water is huge. When creatures are hit by the plasma beam, they disintegrate, or did you not watch the videos I linked? Nosgothic vampires are shown to have a weakness to fire; it kills them much more easily than normal damage, especially because they catch fire so easily. Please give a reason that pressure resistance would equal heat resistance, though, because so far Kain has no resistance.



Yes, if you're going to claim that its temperature is higher than plasma, which you have not. Nor have you shown Raziel produce any heat with his claws. Give a specific temperature or at least prove it's hotter than plasma. Otherwise, you're basing that off of nothing. Kain still can't prevent Samus from laying the Power Bomb, and if he has to divert attention to it Samus has the advantage unless you show him TKing two objects at once.

Ah, yes, speed. Precog...maybe?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FoA05QEnEo#t=1m13s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4Xp_gRLB8M#t=1m10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHS1xGy5upE#t=34s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK7h0xvTb3U#t=10s (possible Precog?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6Yh1AzVhkw&#t=4m51s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glFPKDb9OyY#t=10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_sgNUX5DnQ#t=1m59s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exPn1E9uiy4

http://metroid.retropixel.net/metroid4/manual/m4_16.jpg
http://metroid.retropixel.net/metroidzm/manual/mzm_14.jpg (These being to establish reaction time)

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_013.png (Establishing distance)
http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_016.png (Establishing situation)
http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_017.png (Establishing speed)
http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_018.png (Further establishment -Note that she wasn't seen )

Thats all Kain does, and he shows no more visual effort than that. You do realise holding Mobius and force rushing his neck was Kains choice? he does not have to hold someone specifcally. Ive yet to see Samus fireing a weapon while being physically thrown consistently by someone.

This is not a "supernaturual" effect, or more specifcally, this is not possession. Your making things up. Blood shower targets blood, blood pours to Kain, in this case at best, the blood will shower the inside of Samus' suit.

It seems to me that said people sent the message to Samus' suit for her to transcript and there is no real protection or automation. This proves that Samus can be affected by powers of the mind and what youve told me before is irrelevent, see your sneaky and dishonest like this, pretending no mental force has ever gotten past Samus suit as if its because the suit is protecting her from it.

I like how you make a completly irrelevent comparison, blood shower only needs to affect "weak ass" creatures until Samus has more resistance than them to blood control, since shes never faced anything alike to it, this is the same. On the other hand, ice can be broken and its true shes been successful on weak creatures, a stronger Kain cant be frozen if hes too strong for it.

Because pressure breaks up the molecules as well, the difference is, it takes a huge amount to do this to Kain, an unkown amount and tin is far weaker than what Kain has faced. The Earths cores pressure is so high it holds metals molecules together and stops it from melting in temps far higher than that required to melt tin. Also, you keep bringing up "heat resistance", heat is simply expended energy, left over from certain forces, its not an special power, Kains not a leaf type pokemon who gets dealt double damage by fire type you know...

Kinetic shackles says hi, he can have her floating in the air faceing away from him while he plays with the bomb for lulz.

Vid 1- She just runs sideways from a spread of rounds, many of which seem poorly aimed, not sure the first one she even reacted to, it seemed to miss entirely.

Infact looking at most of these, their things anyone could do, diving to one side? Kain could do it quicker using just his mist dodge.

Also that "precog" one is lulzy, I like how shes rolling at about the speed of a slowly tapped football.

The only impressive feat that Kain could not also repeat is being able to dash in a specific direction or a limited time at supersonic, ths is not going to help her tbh though. Theres also the fact that, Kain can have her in free fall with TK, he will know where she is since she cant fly while he can teleport anywhere around her and she could never know where hes going to strike.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats all Kain does, and he shows no more visual effort than that. You do realise holding Mobius and force rushing his neck was Kains choice? he does not have to hold someone specifcally. Ive yet to see Samus fireing a weapon while being physically thrown consistently by someone.

You haven't shown Kain throwing anyone consistently or repeatedly, either. Any time he does there are significant pauses between any TK action, even between the "pick up" and "throw" movements. Also range limits, need to do that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV_x7LfZXDk#t=5m45s



It can't target the blood if it doesn't have access to the blood. In this case, a metal suit with a forcefield and resistance to supernatural or magical effects is between the spell and the blood. It's a spell, that is the definition of supernatural effect.



The only mental force that got in was one Samus was willing to receive, and even some of those didn't get in. It doesn't seem like anyone sent the message to Samus, it was just a telepathic sinal, as well as the other telepathic data pockets. All it proves is that Samus can receive telepathy on her own, and the suit is able to block it and instead transcribe it should she choose. I'm not being sneaky; I legit forgot about that part of the ending since I haven't played Hunters in a while, and only remembered it going through the game again.



The comparison is completely relevant; Kain has never used it anything even slightly powerful, nor has it ever bypassed an obstacle, let alone a supernaturally resistant one. You should prove it can before making such claims. On the other hand, Samus has frozen powerful creatures (like the SA-X) in addition to one in magma (Dragons, Goyagma) and flaming ones (Nova, Goyagma) that should be resistant to ice. Kain's physical strength has nothing to do with getting frozen, really. He might break some after getting frozen, but he can't stop himself from getting frozen in the first place.



Kain has never faced fire that can incinerate a living creature in an instant, and tin's physical durability has nothing to do with its heat resistance until you prove a relationship between the two. Resistance to claws is not resistance to fire, and the earth's core has nothing to do with this. Metal being kept solid under pressure is entirely irrelevant to Kain unless you're arguing that Kain is constant under this pressure, and even then it still doesn't counter the fact that the metal is still hot. Nosgothic vampires have a weakness to fire, this is a fact. There are no less than two cutscenes that show fire's lethal effect on vampires, vampires that are immune to Raziel's claws, remember? It's gotta be a quadruple weakness.



1. Show Kinetic shackles.
2. Show Kain using other TK while kinetic shackles is still in effect.
3. Samus in morph ball has no limbs to shackle.



Dodging gunfire, what's the problem?



Show the mist dodge. Note that most of these are in slow motion to allow them to be seen.



Hey, you asked for precog, and Samus dodged before the shot was fired.



I don't know, I think Kain would have a lot of trouble replicating the one where Samus covers a hundred feet the instant five guns are fired in order to block the shots, moving so quickly her partner did not see her move. The supersonic speed is to establish that Samus' reaction is also greatly above Kain's. Now, where do you get the idea that Samus can't fly? I'm pretty sure we went over this with the Space Jump. As soon as he's behind her he eats a Screw Attack, which is a lot worse than it sounds for Kain.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You haven't shown Kain throwing anyone consistently or repeatedly, either. Any time he does there are significant pauses between any TK action, even between the "pick up" and "throw" movements. Also range limits, need to do that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV_x7LfZXDk#t=5m45s



It can't target the blood if it doesn't have access to the blood. In this case, a metal suit with a forcefield and resistance to supernatural or magical effects is between the spell and the blood. It's a spell, that is the definition of supernatural effect.



The only mental force that got in was one Samus was willing to receive, and even some of those didn't get in. It doesn't seem like anyone sent the message to Samus, it was just a telepathic sinal, as well as the other telepathic data pockets. All it proves is that Samus can receive telepathy on her own, and the suit is able to block it and instead transcribe it should she choose. I'm not being sneaky; I legit forgot about that part of the ending since I haven't played Hunters in a while, and only remembered it going through the game again.



The comparison is completely relevant; Kain has never used it anything even slightly powerful, nor has it ever bypassed an obstacle, let alone a supernaturally resistant one. You should prove it can before making such claims. On the other hand, Samus has frozen powerful creatures (like the SA-X) in addition to one in magma (Dragons, Goyagma) and flaming ones (Nova, Goyagma) that should be resistant to ice. Kain's physical strength has nothing to do with getting frozen, really. He might break some after getting frozen, but he can't stop himself from getting frozen in the first place.



Kain has never faced fire that can incinerate a living creature in an instant, and tin's physical durability has nothing to do with its heat resistance until you prove a relationship between the two. Resistance to claws is not resistance to fire, and the earth's core has nothing to do with this. Metal being kept solid under pressure is entirely irrelevant to Kain unless you're arguing that Kain is constant under this pressure, and even then it still doesn't counter the fact that the metal is still hot. Nosgothic vampires have a weakness to fire, this is a fact. There are no less than two cutscenes that show fire's lethal effect on vampires, vampires that are immune to Raziel's claws, remember? It's gotta be a quadruple weakness.



1. Show Kinetic shackles.
2. Show Kain using other TK while kinetic shackles is still in effect.
3. Samus in morph ball has no limbs to shackle.



Dodging gunfire, what's the problem?



Show the mist dodge. Note that most of these are in slow motion to allow them to be seen.



Hey, you asked for precog, and Samus dodged before the shot was fired.



I don't know, I think Kain would have a lot of trouble replicating the one where Samus covers a hundred feet the instant five guns are fired in order to block the shots, moving so quickly her partner did not see her move. The supersonic speed is to establish that Samus' reaction is also greatly above Kain's. Now, where do you get the idea that Samus can't fly? I'm pretty sure we went over this with the Space Jump. As soon as he's behind her he eats a Screw Attack, which is a lot worse than it sounds for Kain.

Ive shown him toss people around with TK, thats all he needs unless you can make a good case for him having to stop doing it to Samus. Also I lold, that video shows a really slow beam that does not distot Samus' view at all, its like being slowly picked up and dropped again.

Proof? thats a claim, prove it, again, making up stories. Thats the defintion of a magic effect tbh. Next time I face a vampire, ill make sure I dress up tightly in my coat, his magic will never affect me then!

The suit has the ability to recieve telepathy and Samus has no resistance at all, she has shown no ability to stop it. Thanks for that.

Kain just has ot move based on your evidence to stop getting frozen, not that she could hit him with that weapon.

Theres two cutscenes that show vampires burn just like people, thats it really. Tbh, youve yet to show me anything from her weapons melting things instantly, youve shown me gameplay of her damage taking down certain enemies and it did nothing to the Queen.

Again silly buggering, youve seen kinetic shackles although, I cant find the video again atm however, Kain can TK several things at once as shown when he drinks multiple peoples blood at the same time.

Anyone can do that is the problem, its not really a feat.

Try any one of the vids in the LoK respect thread, and again, youve seen it. Throughout this vid, theres also a nice moment of him Tking blood from two people at once;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgaFEwjebfE&feature=related#t=2m15s

Its almost like she guessed he was going to do it OR she heard the same noises I did, a deep humming, I wonder if that was the gun or the background sounds though.

Being able to move yourself at supersonic speed does not mean you can react at supersonic speed. If anything, Samus' reations based on your vides are peak human tops. yes because she automatically knows where Kain is and a jump is equel to flight, silly me....Samus will know where Kain is no more than you would in the same situation, he could appear anywhere around her and she would be helpless to move and considering she cant hurt Kain, certainly at such range it will be useless.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ive shown him toss people around with TK, thats all he needs unless you can make a good case for him having to stop doing it to Samus. Also I lold, that video shows a really slow beam that does not distot Samus' view at all, its like being slowly picked up and dropped again.

No you haven't, I'm the only one posting videos in this thread. Heck, I even posted a video showing Kain taking his sweet time between lifting and throwing a guy. Why would Samus' vision be distorted by either Kain or Gorea? She got picked up, swung around, and slammed on the ground and did not stop shooting, and hitting, the entire time. That's enough to prove that not only can Samus shoot while being lifted, she's accurate enough to hit him.



There are two pages of proof in this thread. I posted the failed possessions, the ghost attacks, the inter-dimensional attacks, hell, the magic golem hand, too. Until your coat can match that, you're probably in trouble, but I'd suggest getting a more solid obstacle like metal between you and the vampire, since their powers aren't proven to work through things like that.



You're welcome. Now the suit just transcribes Kain's polite request for dominance and Samus hits the "no" button. Or she uses the resistance that Dark Samus proved her to have to fight Kain off. Or he just fails altogether like when the Ing tried to possess her.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMz9noXASiQ#t=10m16s
What could have possibly given you the idea that moving stops the freezing process? I don't actually see any way Samus could miss.



Originally posted by The Scenario
Plasma Beam, for reference. Prime version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5H0RA0rGug#t=45s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5H0RA0rGug#t=6m31s


The above quote is my second post in this thread. I took the liberty of removing the links with "certain enemies" to instead focus on Samus melting piles of metal larger than she is. I suppose that means Samus will just burn Kain like a person.



Blood powers =/= TK, and you there's been no kinetic shackles in this thread. Gonna need more proof.



Gonna need evidence for "anyone can " because that's what the feat is.



Nothing better than Samus, who again is deliberately slowed down in those scenes. Kain draining helpless opponents, still nothing for TK, though.



More likely the elevator or the music since GF guns haven't been shown to need to warm up. Look, I'm not actually saying Samus has precognition, that was just the first thing I thought of when you said it. It's still a nice reaction to events Samus can't personally see.



Samus can stop on a dime, charge, hit an incline with a shoulder charge and immediately resume running during this. Multiple times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP2FvmBvTNE
That takes not only good reactions, but skill.

Samus has this nifty radar thing that detects enemies near her, really useful for finding them, in addition to the fact that she's fought teleporters before and is smart enough to get out of the way when the enemy disappears. Who said she can't hurt Kain? Really, most of her beams and the Screw Attack could seriously mess him up.

Originally posted by The Scenario
No you haven't, I'm the only one posting videos in this thread. Heck, I even posted a video showing Kain taking his sweet time between lifting and throwing a guy. Why would Samus' vision be distorted by either Kain or Gorea? She got picked up, swung around, and slammed on the ground and did not stop shooting, and hitting, the entire time. That's enough to prove that not only can Samus shoot while being lifted, she's accurate enough to hit him.



There are two pages of proof in this thread. I posted the failed possessions, the ghost attacks, the inter-dimensional attacks, hell, the magic golem hand, too. Until your coat can match that, you're probably in trouble, but I'd suggest getting a more solid obstacle like metal between you and the vampire, since their powers aren't proven to work through things like that.



You're welcome. Now the suit just transcribes Kain's polite request for dominance and Samus hits the "no" button. Or she uses the resistance that Dark Samus proved her to have to fight Kain off. Or he just fails altogether like when the Ing tried to possess her.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMz9noXASiQ#t=10m16s
What could have possibly given you the idea that moving stops the freezing process? I don't actually see any way Samus could miss.





The above quote is my second post in this thread. I took the liberty of removing the links with "certain enemies" to instead focus on Samus melting piles of metal larger than she is. I suppose that means Samus will just burn Kain like a person.



Blood powers =/= TK, and you there's been no kinetic shackles in this thread. Gonna need more proof.



Gonna need evidence for "anyone can " because that's what the feat is.



Nothing better than Samus, who again is deliberately slowed down in those scenes. Kain draining helpless opponents, still nothing for TK, though.



More likely the elevator or the music since GF guns haven't been shown to need to warm up. Look, I'm not actually saying Samus has precognition, that was just the first thing I thought of when you said it. It's still a nice reaction to events Samus can't personally see.



Samus can stop on a dime, charge, hit an incline with a shoulder charge and immediately resume running during this. Multiple times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP2FvmBvTNE
That takes not only good reactions, but skill.

Samus has this nifty radar thing that detects enemies near her, really useful for finding them, in addition to the fact that she's fought teleporters before and is smart enough to get out of the way when the enemy disappears. Who said she can't hurt Kain? Really, most of her beams and the Screw Attack could seriously mess him up.

Yes because I have never shown that video before of Kain vs Moebius. Of course he was taking his sweet time, he was talking to moebius. Gorea? she shouldnt because it was not hardly moving her, slowly lifting up and down, but Kain? shes yet to prove she can remain fireing in one direction if someones throwing her around like a rag doll.

Youve posted a creature of unkown ability apprently failing to possess Samus, according to you this equels resistance to blood magic which is not reven related, lulz. Yes, lets just hold up a shield of metal, its bound to protect me against magic! such reaching...

Yes because the suits done that..oh wait no, its jsut recieved a telepathy message. My cellphone can recieve messages, therefore it can protect me from people shouting their message in my ear. Like I said, Kains not attempted possession yet.

Because as ice covers Kain it smashes. Or he just turns into mist form and the projectiles/missles dont even touch him. Metals that have alloys in them that are speciifcally vulnerable to heat are impressive to melt?

Hes only got two blood powers, neither look like that, e.g. his TK hand movement and blood flowing towards him. Although again, another claim, that Kains blood powers are seperate to TK.

Everything is slowed down and shes just diving to the side, theres no major speed or reactions there.

What sort of skill is that? skill of the person playing? thats not impressive at all....I was hoping for a cutscene or something, by that logic anyone in 2d games can do the same, ive seen robocop on the N64 iirc do the same sort of thing.

Has it detected dead bodies? also having a radar detection come up with Kains sword in your head is really useful! How is she going to get out of the way? shes in free fall from TK, hows she going to get out of the way? and again, she doesnt know when to move.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes because I have never shown that video before of Kain vs Moebius. Of course he was taking his sweet time, he was talking to moebius. Gorea? she shouldnt because it was not hardly moving her, slowly lifting up and down, but Kain? shes yet to prove she can remain fireing in one direction if someones throwing her around like a rag doll.

Not in this thread, no. Would you like me to do it for you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtGXpfCOzWo#t=7m

He's taking his sweet time, yes, so you've still got no case to say he can do it faster until you prove it. Heck, there's even a significant delay between throwing the staff and then picking up Moebius, that's basically the same as Gorea there. You've yet to prove Kain can throw anyone like a ragdoll, and yes that is what Gorea was doing there. Did you miss the part where is swung her to the sides, nearly 180 degrees around it? That about proves TK won't help Kain here.



I've posted a creature that's known to be able to pass between dimensions and control minds unable to penetrate Samus' suit. You still need to prove magic it can bypass an obstacle like that. "It's magic!" isn't good enough, you still need evidence.



It's more like headphones in that respect, since Samus seems able to choose whether to receive it telepathically or let the suit take it so she doesn't have to. Sends it right to voicemail, then. You're still ignoring Dark Samus failing to control her, too.



There is no "as it covers," it's all at once, at which point he's frozen for a while. I somehow doubt mist will save him from supercooled air. Yes, are you ignoring the size of those chunks? It's a good several square feet just evaporating. The suit considers lots of things vulnerable to heat when you can turn guys to ash in a second. Kain vulnerable to heat, too, so I still don't understand why you think it isn't impressive.



That's the point, they are separate so he can't use one like the other. He had blood powers long before he ever had TK. Where are the kinetic shackles or two TK targets at once? Still looking like the Power Bomb'll work.



If it's slowed down, that means Samus is actually moving faster. Given how suddenly most of these happen, they're all great reaction feats.



Wasn't sure what you were responding to, it looks like you skipped a point or two. Note that it's all happening at supersonic speed, so much faster than anything Kain could dream of doing.



It can track ghosts. Having radar detection means Samus knows as soon as Kain reappears and can react accordingly. She gets out of the way by Space Jump/Screw Attacking, duh. She knows when to move since she's got him on radar, duh. She'll be moving the whole time, too, I'm not sure why you expect her to stand in one spot and wait for Kain to teleport. Has he ever hit a fast moving target with the dimensional teleport?

Originally posted by The Scenario
Not in this thread, no. Would you like me to do it for you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtGXpfCOzWo#t=7m

He's taking his sweet time, yes, so you've still got no case to say he can do it faster until you prove it. Heck, there's even a significant delay between throwing the staff and then picking up Moebius, that's basically the same as Gorea there. You've yet to prove Kain can throw anyone like a ragdoll, and yes that is what Gorea was doing there. Did you miss the part where is swung her to the sides, nearly 180 degrees around it? That about proves TK won't help Kain here.



I've posted a creature that's known to be able to pass between dimensions and control minds unable to penetrate Samus' suit. You still need to prove magic it can bypass an obstacle like that. "It's magic!" isn't good enough, you still need evidence.



It's more like headphones in that respect, since Samus seems able to choose whether to receive it telepathically or let the suit take it so she doesn't have to. Sends it right to voicemail, then. You're still ignoring Dark Samus failing to control her, too.



There is no "as it covers," it's all at once, at which point he's frozen for a while. I somehow doubt mist will save him from supercooled air. Yes, are you ignoring the size of those chunks? It's a good several square feet just evaporating. The suit considers lots of things vulnerable to heat when you can turn guys to ash in a second. Kain vulnerable to heat, too, so I still don't understand why you think it isn't impressive.



That's the point, they are separate so he can't use one like the other. He had blood powers long before he ever had TK. Where are the kinetic shackles or two TK targets at once? Still looking like the Power Bomb'll work.



If it's slowed down, that means Samus is actually moving faster. Given how suddenly most of these happen, they're all great reaction feats.



Wasn't sure what you were responding to, it looks like you skipped a point or two. Note that it's all happening at supersonic speed, so much faster than anything Kain could dream of doing.



It can track ghosts. Having radar detection means Samus knows as soon as Kain reappears and can react accordingly. She gets out of the way by Space Jump/Screw Attacking, duh. She knows when to move since she's got him on radar, duh. She'll be moving the whole time, too, I'm not sure why you expect her to stand in one spot and wait for Kain to teleport. Has he ever hit a fast moving target with the dimensional teleport?

So you remembered it, now posted a video ive already shown you and think this means I have not provided evidence? THats called silly buggering. It takes less than a second to manipulate TK.....thats all I need as evidence from that vid to prove he can do it quickly and easily. Gorea moved Samus slowly from side to side, Kain can actually toss with his Tk.

You still need to provide a logical explanation why something that does not touch or get impeded by a surface of any kind would be stopped by a suit that has no magic resistance. And your reaching again, trying to change the words of your statements as if it makes them new again.

Ive yet to see Samus choose and quote the Dark Samus thing again. Size is pretty irrelevent when the game points out specifically their vulnerable to heat, at the moment their more vulnerable to heat than Kain is. Ive yet to see your proof for Kains "vulnerable" to heat, Kain burns just like a person but unlike the metal is not specifically vulnerable, hes just not immune either.

Prove this, show me blood powers before TK and then prove their completly different because even in BO2, Kain has TK, you know, the weakest form of Kain who had just been beaten senseless, even he remembers how to use TK there.

Looking at the radar, they disapear off it when they disapear, it seems they can go physical which is the only time they appear. Youve yet to prove she can react in less than a fraction of a second AND still have time to turn around or face wheever Kain is (which you belive she can tell and react to just because of radar) and attack before Kains slashed her in half, youve not prove any one of those things.

Samus is not fast moving though but more importantly, I just said he could toss her in the air, she has nothing to "run" or "move" when shes tossed in the air, after that she has less than a second to live.

I dont know what you think those scans prove since they dont give any real indication of time, we dont know how long those things threatened those people, only that Samus got in the middle before they finally fired. Samus even speaks beforehand so unless she speaks at supersonic speed I think she had plenty of time between one scan and the next even if all she did was a supersonic dash to get to them.

K, I got bored, took you off ignore, and WAT IS THIS SHIT?

1. THE FLASH, you know, FTL guy, can talk while speeding around, your argument is invalid.
2.We're clearly shown the pirate's claw-gun-thing lighting up, and she's there before they can shoot, her companion didn't even see her move.

don't forget that she was so fast when the lasers bounced off her, they didn't know it was her that the lasers hit. They had no idea why they bounced back because when they fired there was only a little girl standing there. lol... Samus is broken.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So you remembered it, now posted a video ive already shown you and think this means I have not provided evidence? THats called silly buggering. It takes less than a second to manipulate TK.....thats all I need as evidence from that vid to prove he can do it quickly and easily. Gorea moved Samus slowly from side to side, Kain can actually toss with his Tk.

When the last time you posted that video? Honestly, I haven't seen you post it in over six months, that's more or less you refusing to provide evidence for a recent thread. The video shows several very significant pauses between each TK action, nearly all of them taking over a second, which is more than enough time for Samus to shoot him. I like how you try to downplay Gorea when Samus can still shoot things while being tossed like a ragdoll.



Here's a logical reason: it has magic resistance. What you actually need is a logical reason for magic to automatically bypass everything. "It's magic!" isn't a logical reason, by the way.



During the fight, you know when she receives that message but just reads it instead of letting it into her mind, most likely because that kind of thing would be distracting in a fight. All of page 1 and 2 consist of the Dark Samus thing, it's far too large to quote save that Dark Samus tried to control Samus and 3 other people (and the Space Pirates) and only Samus resisted. Size is not irrelevant when you're talking about mounds of solid metal being evaporated, and being specifically vulnerable to heat describes nearly all metals, and Kain is actually more vulnerable to heat than the metal is. Kain does not burn like a person, first of all. If you remember that vampires have a specific weakness to fire as well, and both Zephon and Dumah succumb to it despite both being immune to Raziel's claws. Even if Kain does burn "like a person" did you forget that Samus' Plasma Beam turns people to ash in less than a second?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd9T_XDcyJA#t=2m40s (Blood Powers before TK)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd9T_XDcyJA#t=3m47s (This, for the record, is not TK. This is just K.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwD3EUMcHvs#t=2m30s (The Seer spells out in no uncertain terms that Kain can only use his K at close range, and so gives him a T. Kain did not have TK before this point.)



That's the point; as soon as Kain reappears Samus will know exactly where if he's within range. Samus can track them even when they disappear with the X-Ray visor in any case. I've already proven Samus' reaction time is supersonic, that's much less than a fraction of a second and much, much faster than Kain. She doesn't have to turn around, she'll be moving before, during, and after his teleport. Heck, she'll be moving the whole fight, and all she needs to do to hit Kain if he's behind her is jump into a Screw Attack or simply Morph Ball so he misses. He can't cut her in half, either, she's faced worse.



Okay, seriously, are you just ignoring the Space Jump right now or do you not think it will help? Samus can pseudofly and still fire her weapons in mid air, this was proven on page 1. The Screw Attack surrounds her in a destructive energy field that cuts through metal and stone while Space Jumping; Kain has very little chance hitting her, let alone harming her during that.



They prove Samus is a heck of a lot faster than Kain. The indication of time is Samus moving hundreds of feet before the blasts hit the little girl, with no one, including her partners, even seeing her move. When are you talking about with Samus speaking? She only talks before the Space Pirates raise their weapons, and after they've fired, so I'm not sure what you're getting at with that?

Originally posted by The Scenario
When the last time you posted that video? Honestly, I haven't seen you post it in over six months, that's more or less you refusing to provide evidence for a recent thread. The video shows several very significant pauses between each TK action, nearly all of them taking over a second, which is more than enough time for Samus to shoot him. I like how you try to downplay Gorea when Samus can still shoot things while being tossed like a ragdoll.



Here's a logical reason: it has magic resistance. What you actually need is a logical reason for magic to automatically bypass everything. "It's magic!" isn't a logical reason, by the way.



During the fight, you know when she receives that message but just reads it instead of letting it into her mind, most likely because that kind of thing would be distracting in a fight. All of page 1 and 2 consist of the Dark Samus thing, it's far too large to quote save that Dark Samus tried to control Samus and 3 other people (and the Space Pirates) and only Samus resisted. Size is not irrelevant when you're talking about mounds of solid metal being evaporated, and being specifically vulnerable to heat describes nearly all metals, and Kain is actually more vulnerable to heat than the metal is. Kain does not burn like a person, first of all. If you remember that vampires have a specific weakness to fire as well, and both Zephon and Dumah succumb to it despite both being immune to Raziel's claws. Even if Kain does burn "like a person" did you forget that Samus' Plasma Beam turns people to ash in less than a second?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd9T_XDcyJA#t=2m40s (Blood Powers before TK)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd9T_XDcyJA#t=3m47s (This, for the record, is not TK. This is just K.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwD3EUMcHvs#t=2m30s (The Seer spells out in no uncertain terms that Kain can only use his K at close range, and so gives him a T. Kain did not have TK before this point.)



That's the point; as soon as Kain reappears Samus will know exactly where if he's within range. Samus can track them even when they disappear with the X-Ray visor in any case. I've already proven Samus' reaction time is supersonic, that's much less than a fraction of a second and much, much faster than Kain. She doesn't have to turn around, she'll be moving before, during, and after his teleport. Heck, she'll be moving the whole fight, and all she needs to do to hit Kain if he's behind her is jump into a Screw Attack or simply Morph Ball so he misses. He can't cut her in half, either, she's faced worse.



Okay, seriously, are you just ignoring the Space Jump right now or do you not think it will help? Samus can pseudofly and still fire her weapons in mid air, this was proven on page 1. The Screw Attack surrounds her in a destructive energy field that cuts through metal and stone while Space Jumping; Kain has very little chance hitting her, let alone harming her during that.



They prove Samus is a heck of a lot faster than Kain. The indication of time is Samus moving hundreds of feet before the blasts hit the little girl, with no one, including her partners, even seeing her move. When are you talking about with Samus speaking? She only talks before the Space Pirates raise their weapons, and after they've fired, so I'm not sure what you're getting at with that?

Ive countered this part, I dont see anything new.

Ive yet to see "magic" resistance and saying "theres a surface between Kain and what hes targeting!" is not a logical reason for non projectiles to work.

Samus' weapons melt metal thats specially vulnerable as per the game to heat. Their top feat I have seen is melting tin, which has melting point apprently not much higher than human skin anyway.

Both of those things are short range, Kain cant drink blood at any longer a distance than a meter or so....he can drink further in Defiance, which relates to how his Tk is stronger now.

She wont know anything, her brain does not work in milliseconds or fractions there of, her radar has not shown to be able to create that target, her react to it when she cant see it herself. Shes going to according to you track Kain all of a sudden, react to the radar, turn, react to Kain and avoid/attack while in mid-air before Kains blade which takes fractions of a second to come down.....your going to need a shit ton of proof.

It was proven that if Samus jumps of her own regard she can attack/fire etc, I can also attack while jumping but if someone knocked me off my feet I would not necesserily be able to, Samus has only shown capable of attacking while in the air and space jumping is not flight.

Prove this. Prove she moved hundreds of feet, your making it sound like the weapons fired and she reached the little girl before the lasers did. Theres nothing stateing that in that scan at all.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ive countered this part, I dont see anything new.

Then please counter it again, from here it seems you're just dismissing it on questionable grounds. Gorea threw Samus like a ragdoll and she could still shoot him, and you have not yet proven that Kain could throw her continuously.



Beyond the possessions, ghosts, inter-dimensional attacks, and Bryyonian magic attacks? You still need a logical reason for anything simply bypassing an obstacle.



Vampires are specifically vulnerable to heat, and that still does not changes the fact that she is melting several meters of the stuff. She turns people to ash, Kain has no resistance to this.



Missed the point. They're separate abilities and Kain couldn't drink from longer distances after gaining it in Blood Omen 2.



Her reactions are supersonic, so yes she will and yes it does. No, you're doing it wrong: Samus is going to see Kain disappear, then immediately get the heck away from where she was, then pick up his reappearance on radar, turn and shoot him. This all assumes he can even use the dimensional teleport, though.



Samus was attacking while Gorea threw her, try again. Space Jumping is still mid air movement so she isn't in free fall, and she can shoot Kain in mid air.



Except for the scan itself. You can see from the panel right before they shoot that Samus isn't there yet, and as soon as they do there she is. She moved so quickly that no one saw her, including her own allies.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Then please counter it again, from here it seems you're just dismissing it on questionable grounds. Gorea threw Samus like a ragdoll and she could still shoot him, and you have not yet proven that Kain could throw her continuously.



Beyond the possessions, ghosts, inter-dimensional attacks, and Bryyonian magic attacks? You still need a logical reason for anything simply bypassing an obstacle.



Vampires are specifically vulnerable to heat, and that still does not changes the fact that she is melting several meters of the stuff. She turns people to ash, Kain has no resistance to this.



Missed the point. They're separate abilities and Kain couldn't drink from longer distances after gaining it in Blood Omen 2.



Her reactions are supersonic, so yes she will and yes it does. No, you're doing it wrong: Samus is going to see Kain disappear, then immediately get the heck away from where she was, then pick up his reappearance on radar, turn and shoot him. This all assumes he can even use the dimensional teleport, though.



Samus was attacking while Gorea threw her, try again. Space Jumping is still mid air movement so she isn't in free fall, and she can shoot Kain in mid air.



Except for the scan itself. You can see from the panel right before they shoot that Samus isn't there yet, and as soon as they do there she is. She moved so quickly that no one saw her, including her own allies.

Theres no "thrown like rag doll" here from Gorea.

Show me Bryyonian magic attacks, do they have non projectile powers like Kain does that randomly do not work on Samus? I have one, said obstacle is a material piece of metal and the oppressor does not travel or such said material.

Vampires burn and can die in heat, they fear flame, just like we all do, the metal however is speciifcally vulnerable.

You did not prove they were different or seperate in any way, both of Kians BO2 methods use supernatural forces to move blocks, weapons from the ground or blood.

not seen supersonic reactions yet. Theres no immediatly, before she even has any idea whats going on his blade is scything through her like butter and your ignoring the Tk bit again.

UNkown time for her to get there, she jumped in front of the girl, its no wonder no one saw her, look at the smoke....

Originally posted by Burning thought
Theres no "thrown like rag doll" here from Gorea.

Then watch the video again. Though I suppose it would prove Samus is capable of preventing herself from being ragdolled.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxWLW4kGcho#t=5m40s
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Bryyo_Data#The_Hunted
Projectiles. But again, the suit is known to defense from things that phase through solid obstacles like thing Ing and Chozo Ghosts. You do need to prove it can bypass obstacles such as walls or can create forces on the other side of them.




And that matters how? Everything is vulnerable to heat past a certain point. Iron melts just as easily as tin in such conditions. You've yet to prove that Kain can resist being turned to ash like all the other people Samus shoots with it.



Kain could not use Telekinesis before Blood Omen 2, but he could still manipulate blood. That proves they are separate abilities.



I showed you already, though. It's on page 2 with all the others, you know the one with Samus shooting around at supersonic speeds? As soon as Kain disappears Samus is going to be in a different spot, what is so hard about this? Heck, she'll be in a different spot before he disappears since she'll be moving constantly. Can Kain use TK and dimensional teleport at the same time? You're ignoring that it won't bother Samus all that much.



She was there between them firing and hitting. Did you miss the part where her ally didn't see her move the whole distance?

Originally posted by The Scenario
Then watch the video again. Though I suppose it would prove Samus is capable of preventing herself from being ragdolled.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxWLW4kGcho#t=5m40s
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Bryyo_Data#The_Hunted
Projectiles. But again, the suit is known to defense from things that phase through solid obstacles like thing Ing and Chozo Ghosts. You do need to prove it can bypass obstacles such as walls or can create forces on the other side of them.




And that matters how? Everything is vulnerable to heat past a certain point. Iron melts just as easily as tin in such conditions. You've yet to prove that Kain can resist being turned to ash like all the other people Samus shoots with it.



Kain could not use Telekinesis before Blood Omen 2, but he could still manipulate blood. That proves they are separate abilities.



I showed you already, though. It's on page 2 with all the others, you know the one with Samus shooting around at supersonic speeds? As soon as Kain disappears Samus is going to be in a different spot, what is so hard about this? Heck, she'll be in a different spot before he disappears since she'll be moving constantly. Can Kain use TK and dimensional teleport at the same time? You're ignoring that it won't bother Samus all that much.



She was there between them firing and hitting. Did you miss the part where her ally didn't see her move the whole distance?

Watched it 3 times for good measure, still no "ragdoll" effect.

Thought so, projectiles. Actually objects trying to get through the suit, thats not defence at all, this is all solid vs solid. kains magic in this case does not even phase through anything though although I would like to see this happening in a cutscene, Chozo ghosts if thats what you were showing me earlier look like they can become just as physical as anything. erm, why do I need to prove this? your just making things up, maybe you can prove her weapons will work on a vampire.

Well no, thats not vulnerability tbh, thats simply a physical eventuality, but if someones specifically vulnerable to heat to the point where the suit outlines it as such then its clearly far more vulnerable than the walls around it. Its almost like your claiming "turn to ash" is its specific power, its just heat which is at best capable of melting tin. Also you place too much effort into trying to use how things a disposed of in a game, by your logic the canon of Modern warfare and battlefield games has humans in their universe that disintegrate, disapear or w/e when they die, when really its just a quick way of removing bodies so the game does not lag. Same thing here imo.

That is TK, he goes from being able to move things with his will alone, to being able to do so at "great distances".

"shooting around at supersonic speeds", no...dont recall that one...what do you mean at the same time? all Kain has to do is use TK first, nothing Samus can do while shes tossed into the air and Kain teleports, Samus is dead....youve yet to show anything of her doing all these things while falling and somehow having precog to react to Kain.

Theres no proof of that...only that she was there before they evenutally fired, theres no real time comparison or frame between one scan and the other, considering the pirates were jeering and talking your assuming too much to belive she raced across that distance and got in front of the girl just as the weapon fired, the scan does not show that at all. Also yes, I did miss it, what ally? no ally says they did not see her although as I said, smoke.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Watched it 3 times for good measure, still no "ragdoll" effect.

The point I was trying to prove is that Samus isn't overly affected by being thrown around. Essentially, the video proves that Samus doesn't ragdoll. Kain isn't going to be very different from Gorea throwing her, so Samus is unlikely to ragdoll in his TK, either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV_x7LfZXDk#t=5m45s (Gorea catching Samus)
vs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV_x7LfZXDk#t=2m45s (Gorea catching the hunters)




I'm just saying, it's your claim that blood shower works through obstacles, or doesn't phase through anything, so I think you should prove it. I mean, it doesn't have any actual feats, does it? If it only worked on normal humans there is a reasonable doubt it would work all that well on genetically engineered Chozo/Human/Metroid Hybrid, in addition to to the suit's protection. I'm not sure why a Chozo Ghost would make solid attacks, and there aren't any in cutscenes in any case. Or did you mean Ing? We already know vampires are vulnerable to fire, so I'd say it's already proven Samus can kill them. Heck, she kills ghosts.



I see no reason for physical eventuality to not also be a weakness, especially when we have evidence that shows vampires to be extremely weak to fire, even if their durability to claws is good. And we still know it one-shots Kain thanks to Magnus. The metal being vulnerable too is hardly conclusive, either, especially given the Plasma Beam's other effects. However, suggesting that it's just a way of disposing of the corpses is wrong. With the common example being a Space Pirate, here's how they are affected by Samus' various beams:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbIds23DWMw#t=1m36s (The Power Beam and missiles. Note how they just fall back or collapse, then simply fade after a while. In particular, note that they die first, then fade. This is the normal fade out for dead enemies.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbIds23DWMw#t=2m32s (The Wave Beam. Note that it's the same as before, they simply die, leave a corpse, and then fade. This one just includes electricity.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfCgVGh8cy4#t=4m (Flying Pirate, but same difference. This is the first time a beam has a different death effect, by making them shatter into little frozen chunks that then disappear. You wouldn't say that is only getting rid of the corpse, would you?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0w8r9Y-CKw#t=7m18s (I've shown you this before. Notice that, instead of leaving a corpse like the Power or Wave beams, the Plasma beam simply vaporizes them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlHCXdlK5Yk#t=4m10s (Prime 3's Plasma Beam. Again, notice that instead of a corpse, the Space Pirate leaves only a small cloud of ash.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zQS7R-0FXI#t=5m28s (There's also the Nova beam, which does the same thing except stronger and green.)




The prefix "tele-" means distance, with telekinesis meaning something akin to "distant movement" or synonyms thereof. If Kain can only do it up close there is no distance, hence it being K instead of TK. Which was the joke, gosh. The point is that initially, Kain could not move objects without direct contact, yet could with blood. Then, when he got telekinesis for great distances, his blood drain distance did not increase, which indicates that they are separate abilities. Incidentally, his blood abilities are likely too short ranged to be of much use here.



It's actually quite simple: remember how the Speed Booster is supersonic? http://metroid.retropixel.net/metroid4/manual/m4_16.jpg

Well, in the video I linked: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP2FvmBvTNE

Samus is shooting around in the Speed Booster, i.e: supersonic speeds. Her reactions are therefor infinitely better than Kain's. If Kain uses TK first, he'll have to let go before teleporting, and then Samus has Space Jumped out of the way or gone into Morph Ball. Show what? Space Jump is a mid air ability and I've showed you Samus shooting in mid air multiple times. All the evidence points to Kain getting vaporized before he can move.



Yes, there is. How about we go through it more slowly.

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_013.png (This is just to establish distance. Panel 3 shows it's a few hundred feet away. Samus hasn't started moving yet.)

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_016.png
Panel 1- The little girl is surrounded by five Space Pirates, all pointing their weapons at her.
Panel 2- One Pirate is being a bit of a jerk. No Samus.
Panel 3- The weapon opens and flashes, indicating that it's about to fire. Still no Samus.
Panel 4- Kreatz, the Elf guy and Samus' ally, panics.
Panels 5 and 6- Reactions by various.


http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_017.png
Panel 1- Suddenly Samus! She blocks all the shots and reflects them. From multiple sides, even.
Panel 2- Confused Pirate. When he fired, the was a little girl there, so why are the beams bouncing everywhere? Just note that he doesn't know why the beams were reflected, which indicates he didn't see Samus appear there before the shots, which would also be before the smoke.
Panel 3- Pirates finally realize there is someone else there. Note in particular that they go from "who's there?" to "what are you?" That implies that whatever happened is beyond normal in some way. No wonder.
Panel 4- Samus begins to arrest everyone involved.

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_018.png
Panel 1- Space Pirates begin panicking.
Panel 2- Kreatz, Samus' ally, "Eh. H-huh. When did Samus...?" Note that he's looking behind him, because that's where Samus was. He didn't notice when Samus moved from behind him, crossing hundreds of feet in the direction he was looking at the time. Smoke doesn't cover that.
Panels 3, 4, and 5- Pirate leader demonstrates his intelligence, then Samus prepares to ruin the week of everyone present.

In short, Samus blitzes. If you want the next page, it's basically Samus continuing to ruin things for the Pirates by disabling 4 of them at once.
http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_019.png

"...fast!!"

Originally posted by The Scenario
The point I was trying to prove is that Samus isn't overly affected by being thrown around. Essentially, the video proves that Samus doesn't ragdoll. Kain isn't going to be very different from Gorea throwing her, so Samus is unlikely to ragdoll in his TK, either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV_x7LfZXDk#t=5m45s (Gorea catching Samus)
vs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV_x7LfZXDk#t=2m45s (Gorea catching the hunters)




I'm just saying, it's your claim that blood shower works through obstacles, or doesn't phase through anything, so I think you should prove it. I mean, it doesn't have any actual feats, does it? If it only worked on normal humans there is a reasonable doubt it would work all that well on genetically engineered Chozo/Human/Metroid Hybrid, in addition to to the suit's protection. I'm not sure why a Chozo Ghost would make solid attacks, and there aren't any in cutscenes in any case. Or did you mean Ing? We already know vampires are vulnerable to fire, so I'd say it's already proven Samus can kill them. Heck, she kills ghosts.



I see no reason for physical eventuality to not also be a weakness, especially when we have evidence that shows vampires to be extremely weak to fire, even if their durability to claws is good. And we still know it one-shots Kain thanks to Magnus. The metal being vulnerable too is hardly conclusive, either, especially given the Plasma Beam's other effects. However, suggesting that it's just a way of disposing of the corpses is wrong. With the common example being a Space Pirate, here's how they are affected by Samus' various beams:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbIds23DWMw#t=1m36s (The Power Beam and missiles. Note how they just fall back or collapse, then simply fade after a while. In particular, note that they die first, then fade. This is the normal fade out for dead enemies.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbIds23DWMw#t=2m32s (The Wave Beam. Note that it's the same as before, they simply die, leave a corpse, and then fade. This one just includes electricity.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfCgVGh8cy4#t=4m (Flying Pirate, but same difference. This is the first time a beam has a different death effect, by making them shatter into little frozen chunks that then disappear. You wouldn't say that is only getting rid of the corpse, would you?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0w8r9Y-CKw#t=7m18s (I've shown you this before. Notice that, instead of leaving a corpse like the Power or Wave beams, the Plasma beam simply vaporizes them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlHCXdlK5Yk#t=4m10s (Prime 3's Plasma Beam. Again, notice that instead of a corpse, the Space Pirate leaves only a small cloud of ash.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zQS7R-0FXI#t=5m28s (There's also the Nova beam, which does the same thing except stronger and green.)




The prefix "tele-" means distance, with telekinesis meaning something akin to "distant movement" or synonyms thereof. If Kain can only do it up close there is no distance, hence it being K instead of TK. Which was the joke, gosh. The point is that initially, Kain could not move objects without direct contact, yet could with blood. Then, when he got telekinesis for great distances, his blood drain distance did not increase, which indicates that they are separate abilities. Incidentally, his blood abilities are likely too short ranged to be of much use here.



It's actually quite simple: remember how the Speed Booster is supersonic? http://metroid.retropixel.net/metroid4/manual/m4_16.jpg

Well, in the video I linked: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP2FvmBvTNE

Samus is shooting around in the Speed Booster, i.e: supersonic speeds. Her reactions are therefor infinitely better than Kain's. If Kain uses TK first, he'll have to let go before teleporting, and then Samus has Space Jumped out of the way or gone into Morph Ball. Show what? Space Jump is a mid air ability and I've showed you Samus shooting in mid air multiple times. All the evidence points to Kain getting vaporized before he can move.



Yes, there is. How about we go through it more slowly.

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_013.png (This is just to establish distance. Panel 3 shows it's a few hundred feet away. Samus hasn't started moving yet.)

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_016.png
Panel 1- The little girl is surrounded by five Space Pirates, all pointing their weapons at her.
Panel 2- One Pirate is being a bit of a jerk. No Samus.
Panel 3- The weapon opens and flashes, indicating that it's about to fire. Still no Samus.
Panel 4- Kreatz, the Elf guy and Samus' ally, panics.
Panels 5 and 6- Reactions by various.


http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_017.png
Panel 1- Suddenly Samus! She blocks all the shots and reflects them. From multiple sides, even.
Panel 2- Confused Pirate. When he fired, the was a little girl there, so why are the beams bouncing everywhere? Just note that he doesn't know why the beams were reflected, which indicates he didn't see Samus appear there before the shots, which would also be before the smoke.
Panel 3- Pirates finally realize there is someone else there. Note in particular that they go from "who's there?" to "what are you?" That implies that whatever happened is beyond normal in some way. No wonder.
Panel 4- Samus begins to arrest everyone involved.

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_018.png
Panel 1- Space Pirates begin panicking.
Panel 2- Kreatz, Samus' ally, "Eh. H-huh. When did Samus...?" Note that he's looking behind him, because that's where Samus was. He didn't notice when Samus moved from behind him, crossing hundreds of feet in the direction he was looking at the time. Smoke doesn't cover that.
Panels 3, 4, and 5- Pirate leader demonstrates his intelligence, then Samus prepares to ruin the week of everyone present.

In short, Samus blitzes. If you want the next page, it's basically Samus continuing to ruin things for the Pirates by disabling 4 of them at once.
http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_019.png

"...fast!!"

What , your trying to claim that just because in-game Gorea moved her slowly side to side its the same as being thrown and therefore she does not suffer from any intertia and her limbs do not roll?

As I said before, projectile. I like how you dodged the point, your only argument for Samus' suit blocking anything is because a projectile actually hit it, blood shower hits nothing so your talking a load of nonsense again. But we dont know they work on vampires, maybe ill do a "scenario" and make a random doubt with lack of logic.

Your talking about things you dont know or understand, magnus is old news to Kain whos millenia older and "extremely weak" is unfounded, they simply burn like anyone else.

They just have different death animations, I am beginning to wonder if it even matters what weapons you use? do tin bots always melt? Most of these are in-game death animations still, its not like a cutscene where you can see how things actually affect people. They also look inconsistent, from melting to turning to dust etc.

Well clearly there is distance, his equipment goes from the ground to his hand for example, otherwise why would he use TK? or his "will" to manipulate objects?

I remember how it requires you to be on the ground oh and she needs to activate it first and its just a dash...its not her regular movement, dashing has no sense of "reaction", you cant use a speed feat, no matter how poor your in-game evidence is as reaction time. Kinetic shackles says no, but if he tosses he rin the air, he has all the time it takes for her to fall which is a hell of a lot for Kain to slice her in half as she falls through the air. None of the evidence points to that, I am not sure slow moving little plasma blasts would vaporize anyone of Kains durability or speed.

How the hell are you getting "hundreds of feet" for that distance? Second, we dont see Samus' actions after scan 1, we dont know what shes doing between that and scan 3. Also in the last one, those pirates are percieving her pretty fine, it looks to me like your overhyping whats pretty much a major surprise block. Theres also the fact that she somehow put on her suit in what your claiming to be fractions of a second?

After reading through the thread... well, reading about five lines.. Kain's only chance of winning is if his powers get through her suit and tech and if he can kill her with it. If he can, it becomes a match of 'can he tag her/long enough to kill' and 'can he avoid her attacks. Probably 6/10 Samus.

However if he cant get past her suit then there's not much he can do.

Originally posted by Burning thought
What , your trying to claim that just because in-game Gorea moved her slowly side to side its the same as being thrown and therefore she does not suffer from any intertia and her limbs do not roll?

What, you're trying to claim that just because Kain moved people slowly it's not the same as being thrown by Gorea? See, your problem here is that Gorea is moving Samus at the same speed Kain's TK throw operates, so there's really no difference between them. You're suggesting that Kain could make her ragdoll when the evidence shows the opposite. Samus will end up vaporizing Kain before he can move, sorry.




There is logical reason for doubt, what with the suit actually having supernatural resistance. Last I checked, telepathy wasn't a projectile and Samus had the option to block that. What are blood shower's actual feats that suggest it could do what you claim? Also, what's it's range? Again, it won't help if Samus shoots him from too far away. And heck, it takes so long Samus will have killed him before it finishes.



So are you saying that Kain's heat resistance has increased since he fought Magnus? Because if that's what you're claim, you will need evidence for it. As it stands, I seem to understand better than you that lack of heat resistance = death by vaporization before he can move.



Are you going to argue against scripted events now? And how in the world did you get the idea that it doesn't matter what weapon you use from the clips I provided? I specifically showed you that each weapon causes a different death animation if you need a reminder:

Power Beam/Missile- Fly back and collapse, then fade.

Wave beam- Enveloped in electricity and collapse, then fade.

Ice- Shatter into pieces.

Plasma- Vaporized.

For tinbots it's a little different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1zdeMTJYro#t=3m20s

Their normal death animation is simply falling apart. They melt only when you use the plasma beam or its upgrade, the nova beam. So it matters a lot which weapon you use, as each has different scripted death animations.



You mean when he picks up weapons? I'll grant you that one, but it was still far too short ranged to be useful, and again did not increase his blood drain range when he got TK. They are separate abilities.



I don't think you understand what I'm saying here. Yes, the Speed Booster is just a dash she needs to activate, but I'm not saying she'll be using it. I'm that that she needs to have incredible reaction to be able to use it well, since it moves at supersoinc speeds. She is able to stop on a dime and even reacts when she hits an incline to continue running, which is far beyond human reactions. Actually, it's not unlike you and the dimensional teleport react feat, the difference here being Samus is required by plot to use the shinespark. You haven't proved the kinetic shackles yet, and are you forgetting that Samus can fly or turn into the morphball to get away from them? And really, I am not sure how slow moving heat vulnerable Kain would ever survive a brush with the plasma beam or screw attack. (You still haven't given any evidence that Kain has heat resistance, and he has no movement speed feats good enough to escape before getting vaporized.)



Did you even look at the scan? They're using binoculars to even see clearly, it's certainly more than a hundred feet. We know Samus didn't move between scan 1 and 3 primarily because Kreatz would have seen her if she was moving slowly enough to be seen across that distance. Again, the fact that she moved in front of his field of vision without being seen indicates it was extremely fast, and again she got between that girl and the guns just as the guns fired. You don't think Samus can get into a suit that responds to her thoughts quickly?

Here's another feat, then:
http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0002/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch002_057.png
This is purely to establish that Samus wasn't in her suit before the next page.

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0002/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch002_058.png
Panel 1- The Iono Feria pull weapons out of nowhere.
Panel 2- Gray Voice and Mother Brain comment on this.
Panel 3- One of the Iono Feria fires its weapon.
Panel 4- The blast is about to hit Gray Voice.
Panel 5- Samus begins moving at this point, as the suit forms.

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0002/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch002_059.png
Panel 1- By the time the blast hits the rock behind them, Samus has already moved Gray Voice some distance away.
Panel 2- Old Bird comments.
Panel 3- Samus and Gray Voice silhouetted by the moon.
Panel 4- Samus lands.

There, a clear instance of Samus putting on her suit and moving in front of a weapon after it has already been fired. The previous feat was just from a longer distance. Samus blitzes Kain to ashes.

Theres too much activity atm, so ill put this argumet on hold until some of the other threads have cleared up, even I cannot waste too much time on KMC.