Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

http://th00.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2011/196/2/9/demon_lord_ghirahim_by_uniquelegend-d3kftfn.png

vs.

http://animeonly.org/albums/2007_04_30/Games/Legacy_of_Kain.png



Ohhh its that time again son. *Throws lure for Paste*


No exotic powers other than teleporting for both of them. Sword and H2H strictly.


Not done with Skyward Sword yet, but it seems like it would be a nice, competitive fight from what I've seen so far.

Kain wins on principle.

Someone who looks that lame shouldn't be allowed to win verse threads.

At first glance, I didn't want to like the dude either.

But despite the terribad decision to put lipstick on him, he's kinda kewl.

No.

He reminds me of that villain on an episode of Dexter's Laboratory when Dexter teamed up with Koosie to save Deedee's imagination.

Only that guy was amazing.

Whats his best strength and durability feats?

Edit; watched the first fight, neither are excerting more forces than a human body can take without moving and Neme is right, the guy looks like he would fall over in a breeze so unless hes got some major feat later on I wouldnt put him against Kain even unarmed.

Best strength feat that I've seen so far is casually collapsing a fortress wall that's about 3 feet deep and maybe 30 feet high.

He then goes on to bust a forcefield that put up more of a resistance that the wall, but was still easily overcome.

Those are durability feats as well, just from the self strain.

There's also this:

http://storage.siliconera.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Wii_ZeldaSS_2_scrn02_E3_thumb.png

He is able to block sword strikes between two fingers. And though it might not have been the intent, the edge would be clearly hitting skin by the way the image looks. I've only seen barely past the third dungeon so far, so I don't yet know the extent of this Link's strength, but so far the best I've seen him do is lift up boulders about the size of his torso, over his head--so not yet that impressive.

He doesnt look like he can do much against Kain in that case. Kain just uses his hands and tanks anything he has to offer.

Ghirahim ****s him up. /Nomnom bait.

The cutscene you failed to supply spoilers tags for alone is enough, CC. Without his magic Kain's really not a big deal.

How do I shot web?

And

How do I spoiler tag?

Like that. No spaces.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste

The cutscene you failed to supply

This.

Also a dinky wooden shield is canonically (You cant get better than that by the looks of it at the time) used against him and can take his blows.

Hes not strong enough to do any damage, nor has shown no soak. His best bet is to teleport flee and even then, Kain will decimate with dimentional port.

Having just reached the final battle, I call spite. haermm GJ, Kain can't hurt him.

Then it will be even footing. Although words are lovely but proof is better.

- Falling a distance of about 5-10 meters incapacitates him...lol, Kain tosses him into the air and then just impales him when he falls helpless on the ground with one finger.

Originally posted by Burning thought

Also a dinky wooden shield is canonically (You cant get better than that by the looks of it at the time) used against him and can take his blows.


UMMM what are you talking about?

You have to BUY shields. It's not given to you. And they can break--even the stronger iron and sacred shields. Ergo you don't automatically have a shield in that fight as it can break before you ever reach him.

Thus far it seems you can go throughout the game without ever having one. So no, a wooden shield never canonically blocked anything of his.

Kindly get a clear picture of things before you make statements.

In all the videos I watched, people used the shield to block him. Is that unnecessery then? I thought you had to shield bash him or something.

Although i dont suppose you have any argument for him being able to win, or vids of his feats?

Also, it seems people who play the games a lot do not have a clear picture of things considering Scream just claimed he cant be hurt yet watching the vid, falling a few meters incapacitates him so I am not too worried.

In the walkthrough I'm watching (AginoEvolutionHD is the tag), he didn't even have a shield in the fight. He broke it earlier.

I would provide you with videos, but I don't care enough to do so--I'm impartial. This is not a Kratos thread.

Wow, I had no idea our main evil guy in this game was so fruity looking.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Wow, I had no idea our main evil guy in this game was so fruity looking. There's a canon reason for it, won't spoil.

Ghirahim is actually pretty cool, for what he is.

Without his magic he's still formidable, so fine, I'll get on with the cutscenes and such, beware of SPOILAHS. AginoEvolution, you said, CosmicComet? Let's see then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBjiqtTJOp8#t=5m45s

Catching Link's sword with his fingers. Link at this point is pushing large metal blocks, slightly smaller than the ones Raziel pushes. Ghirahim's weakest form is this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvAst00-FZ0#t=13m45s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvUhfqL6EdM

Ghirahim blowing through the wall, tossing several large boulders and bits of debris out of the way. Just eyeballing it puts him at stronger than Raziel, and that dash makes him faster than Kain. He then breaks the barrier and shows off some jumping power. Note the he hasn't powered up yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKkoNb9aV6s#t=9m40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKkoNb9aV6s#t=11m10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKkoNb9aV6s#t=13m5s

First video just shows off Ghirahim's teleport speed, much faster and easier than Kain's. Second video is describing Ghirahim's arms as "tougher than any armor." Understandable hyberbole, but worth mentioning that his arms become even tougher than the sword catching fingers before. Third video is just dual wielding swords and how he blocks and such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltxsG7FD9dk#t=3m20s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltxsG7FD9dk#t=14m20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sFb4hXMJG8#t=43s

More teleportation for the first video. Second video is the transformation. Third is his description. He's stronger than before, certainly stronger than Kain, and he's immune to the Master Sword. At least, as long as Link isn't using a Fatal Blow on the weak point.

Overall, Ghirahim seems to be faster than Kain, stronger than Kain, and his durability is sufficient to tank Kain's attacks. His teleport is generally faster than Kain's, and he can block Kain with his many, many swords.

Erm no, just eyeballing it shows its a few chunks of rock from an unkown attack. If he had lifted up the wall then maybe but smashing them, no.

Same speed as the dimentional port, although ive not seen him attack out of it. And sword catching fingers is not "toughness", hes using two fingers to catch links sword.

Overall Ghirahim based on your evidence only has at best a better teleport. That is all, vastly inferior power and defence.

Also, Cosmic said no magic or exotic powers but the sword Kain uses is empowered with a lot of powers by its nature, blood and soul devouring being the easy way to win. Although I stick by what I said, Kain can do this with his hands.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Erm no, just eyeballing it shows its a few chunks of rock from an unkown attack. If he had lifted up the wall then maybe but smashing them, no.

Same speed as the dimentional port, although ive not seen him attack out of it. And sword catching fingers is not "toughness", hes using two fingers to catch links sword.

Overall Ghirahim based on your evidence only has at best a better teleport. That is all, vastly inferior power and defence.

Also, Cosmic said no magic or exotic powers but the sword Kain uses is empowered with a lot of powers by its nature, blood and soul devouring being the easy way to win. Although I stick by what I said, Kain can do this with his hands. Yeah, devour the soul or blood of a sword, go on, try.

I know hes a sword, the sword of demise if I understand it? both a demon and a sword though. Technically, Raziel is also a sword.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Erm no, just eyeballing it shows its a few chunks of rock from an unkown attack. If he had lifted up the wall then maybe but smashing them, no.

Ghirahim's magic is very distinctive, what with all the diamonds. Throwing all the rocks puts him above Raziel, especially if he wields his sword in both hands. You think smashing the wall and tossing the debris isn't impressive?



Kain can't use the dimentional teleport over and over again, and he teleports directly behind Link several times during their fights. Above him, too. Nothing's preventing Ghirahim from catching Kain's sword, either, then.




His teleport is better, yes. As is Ghirahim's speed, and his armored arms and body have better durability, and breaking the wall shows superior strength.



It's still a sword, so it should count. Won't help, but it counts. Kain will never win with just his hands.

This forum seems to love Kain alot...

Originally posted by deadliestfan
This forum seems to love Kain alot... Spiting him is just something we do to see if BT will actually defend Kain. He always does, so it's gotten kind of boring, but meh. Lol. It gets activity at least. And this forum definitely needs activity. In that way, at least, BT is entirely necessary right now.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Ghirahim's magic is very distinctive, what with all the diamonds. Throwing all the rocks puts him above Raziel, especially if he wields his sword in both hands. You think smashing the wall and tossing the debris isn't impressive?



Kain can't use the dimentional teleport over and over again, and he teleports directly behind Link several times during their fights. Above him, too. Nothing's preventing Ghirahim from catching Kain's sword, either, then.




His teleport is better, yes. As is Ghirahim's speed, and his armored arms and body have better durability, and breaking the wall shows superior strength.



It's still a sword, so it should count. Won't help, but it counts. Kain will never win with just his hands.

No because you dont see how he did it, you dont see him lift anything therefore he either hit it, which means its not a strength but a force feat and would be useless or a magic feat. Also youve calculated nothing, you just making statements again...

I cant see a reason why not, otherwise Ghirahim cannot use his. Not only is Kain vastly more powerful and faster than Link, G will get his soul drained so its not a good diea.

Erm no, show me the durability feat.

Why? he has more power in his hands than G has shown to resist.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
BT is entirely necessary right now.


This is the only part that is not a lie, I am games vs.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No because you dont see how he did it, you dont see him lift anything therefore he either hit it, which means its not a strength but a force feat and would be useless or a magic feat. Also youve calculated nothing, you just making statements again...

So Ghirahim hitting a stone wall, breaking it, and throwing the resulting debris is not a strength feat. Why is that? How is a force feat useless when they're the same thing? Again, Ghirahim can't do magic without glowing diamonds everywhere, so we know it isn't that. Ghirahim's "force" is currently more impressive than Raziel's.



I can, since Kain's is tied to a meter, and Ghirahim is explicitly shown using his all the time. Kain has a canon teleport, and the dimension reaver isn't it. Kain is not really faster than Link, though, and Ghirahim catching the sword doesn't harm him, so no soul drain there.



Which one? Catching swords or being invulnerable to the Master Sword?



Ghirahim's stronger than Kain; he shouldn't have a problem. I don't think you've ever shown a strength feat for Kain.

Originally posted by The Scenario
So Ghirahim hitting a stone wall, breaking it, and throwing the resulting debris is not a strength feat. Why is that? How is a force feat useless when they're the same thing? Again, Ghirahim can't do magic without glowing diamonds everywhere, so we know it isn't that. Ghirahim's "force" is currently more impressive than Raziel's.



I can, since Kain's is tied to a meter, and Ghirahim is explicitly shown using his all the time. Kain has a canon teleport, and the dimension reaver isn't it. Kain is not really faster than Link, though, and Ghirahim catching the sword doesn't harm him, so no soul drain there.



Which one? Catching swords or being invulnerable to the Master Sword?



Ghirahim's stronger than Kain; he shouldn't have a problem. I don't think you've ever shown a strength feat for Kain.


Because its a force feat, the same attack by Kain or Raz would melt or vaporise the wall being made of stone. And their not the same, hes smashing something with an unkown attack. we dont see if there were diamonds or not. Also, again, show me the math.

Oh this again, gameplay. The dimension reaver is another, all the emblems of power that enhance the reaver are important in the plot. Also wut? If he catches Links it doesnt, Kains has this effect.

So theres no durability feat then, catching a sword is more strength than durability. Although links strength in this game would be nice to see.

ive shown him overpowering Raziel with ease every time I post a vid of him and Raz fighting. Kains generally stronger than Raz.

Originally posted by Burning thought

Because its a force feat, the same attack by Kain or Raz would melt or vaporise the wall being made of stone. And their not the same, hes smashing something with an unkown attack. we dont see if there were diamonds or not. Also, again, show me the math.


Neither Kain nor Raziel has ever vaporized stone with any attack, ever. Raziel has failed to kick down doors, and barely managed to cut through William the Just's coffin. Kain himself has also failed to kick down a door. Ghirahim tore down a wall and threw its pieces farther than Razil could have.



Prove Kain can use it continuously whenever he wants, then. Link's sword won't damage him if he catches it, since his arms are confirmed to be armored, and the same will happen with Kain's sword. If he catches it, it isn't hitting him.



It's both, he's got to be durable enough to stop that sword, and he actually says his arms are armored. Until, at least, he extends the armor to the rest of his body, at which point Link couldn't hurt him without special tactics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4wLR0TNPiI

Edit: Also, Sword-Ghirahim gets struck by lightning several times and clashes with the Master Sword without damage.




Better fighter than =/= stronger than.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Neither Kain nor Raziel has ever vaporized stone with any attack, ever. Raziel has failed to kick down doors, and barely managed to cut through William the Just's coffin. Kain himself has also failed to kick down a door. Ghirahim tore down a wall and threw its pieces farther than Razil could have.



Prove Kain can use it continuously whenever he wants, then. Link's sword won't damage him if he catches it, since his arms are confirmed to be armored, and the same will happen with Kain's sword. If he catches it, it isn't hitting him.



It's both, he's got to be durable enough to stop that sword, and he actually says his arms are armored. Until, at least, he extends the armor to the rest of his body, at which point Link couldn't hurt him without special tactics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4wLR0TNPiI

Edit: Also, Sword-Ghirahim gets struck by lightning several times and clashes with the Master Sword without damage.




Better fighter than =/= stronger than.


Stone is shattered in the tens of thousands of pascals, Kain and Raziel are in the trillions of pascals. Theyve never tried, iirc your refering to when Kain just pushes it with his foot and has no real need to get through the one in the Stronghold OR when Raziel prods a door with his foot, only to smash through it completly with his hands.

I need no more proof of that than Girahim does of his or any teleport, theres no energy source therefore no gauge of uses. wow thats good evidence, oh wait hang on...

Link moving around a block thats shorter than he is with some effort...unbelievable.

Kains never really fought Raziel properly though, you can hardly call Kains toying in the SR 2 intro as "better fighte", he just plucks raziel out of the air, or breaks his hold on him to launch him across the room. Raziel is portrayed as kains strength inferior, if Raziel was stronger he wouldnt struggle with both his hands against Kains one arm holding him.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Stone is shattered in the tens of thousands of pascals, Kain and Raziel are in the trillions of pascals. Theyve never tried, iirc your refering to when Kain just pushes it with his foot and has no real need to get through the one in the Stronghold OR when Raziel prods a door with his foot, only to smash through it completly with his hands.

Quite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlN1irkrNk0#t=7m58s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcZ28gZyNJo#t=3m48s Incidentally, I notice it takes Raziel three tries to get through this door; first that 2 handed push, followed by kick, and finally the second kick, third hit manages to knock it back barely a meter, if that. Further, there's still the matter of Ghirahim tossing the debris outward, each chunk of which could be up to 100 tons in weight.

http://photos.signonsandiego.com/albums/ucsdbear/bear02.jpg This picture has been posted before, thanks go to CosmicComet.



'k, then, here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKkoNb9aV6s#t=9m39s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKkoNb9aV6s#t=9m51s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKkoNb9aV6s#t=10m13s

Ghirahim teleports everywhere, can you prove Kain can do the same? I gave my evidence, it'd be nice if you returned the favor. What do you mean no energy source? The Blood Reaver feeds on blood and uses that to power its reaver spells, that's why the meter is there.



I know, that's some heavy metal there. Though his sword locks with Ghirahim give him more than enough strength.



Plucking Raziel out of the air isn't a strength feat; Raziel's a light corpse. Kain doesn't break any hold, he just moves Raziel's arm while surprising him. If Raziel was Kain's inferior, he never would have torn Kain's heart out.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Quite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlN1irkrNk0#t=7m58s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcZ28gZyNJo#t=3m48s Incidentally, I notice it takes Raziel three tries to get through this door; first that 2 handed push, followed by kick, and finally the second kick, third hit manages to knock it back barely a meter, if that. Further, there's still the matter of Ghirahim tossing the debris outward, each chunk of which could be up to 100 tons in weight.

http://photos.signonsandiego.com/albums/ucsdbear/bear02.jpg This picture has been posted before, thanks go to CosmicComet.



'k, then, here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKkoNb9aV6s#t=9m39s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKkoNb9aV6s#t=9m51s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKkoNb9aV6s#t=10m13s

Ghirahim teleports everywhere, can you prove Kain can do the same? I gave my evidence, it'd be nice if you returned the favor. What do you mean no energy source? The Blood Reaver feeds on blood and uses that to power its reaver spells, that's why the meter is there.



I know, that's some heavy metal there. Though his sword locks with Ghirahim give him more than enough strength.



Plucking Raziel out of the air isn't a strength feat; Raziel's a light corpse. Kain doesn't break any hold, he just moves Raziel's arm while surprising him. If Raziel was Kain's inferior, he never would have torn Kain's heart out.

Like I said.

Two tries, the first thing is the default "push" animation that happens if you try and run into any wall and is not part of the cutscene, also hardly "tries", hes not struggling in either, he uses a light prod and then smashes it off its hinges.

That boulder is far larger than the piecies that get smashed, its still not a strength feat if hes not holding anything up. Pressure, as I said, stones pressure resistance is not that high.

He teleports 3 times, kain teleports here more than that in quick succession;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF1S2bo6cSg#t=1m6s

Kain also teleports throughout the games so I think your toying again since you know this, ive shown you before. It feeds on blood, full stop. Kain, Raziel etc never actually mension "blood" powering the spells, or souls. The meters there just like any meter in games, to give a gameplay limit on the player, the games easy enough without being able to spam the powers all at once, constantly.

heavy metal, hes probably moving a few tons at best, if that tbh, as he struggles to push it along the ground.

No, holding Raziel there with ease with both Raziels arms struggling to be loose doing nothing, not even wavering Kains hold. Yes because Raziel holding Kain up against the wall was never a hold. Of course he would, because Kain did not fight back or defend himself there.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Like I said.
Two tries, the first thing is the default "push" animation that happens if you try and run into any wall and is not part of the cutscene, also hardly "tries", hes not struggling in either, he uses a light prod and then smashes it off its hinges.

The push activates the cutscene, that's more than part of it. Raziel tried to kick it and failed, and had to try again. Nothing you say can change what happened in that cutscene.



They're actually quite similar in size, or at least one chunk is. Still, that's above 100 ton feat. It doesn't matter what kind of feat it is, Ghirahim can still do that to Kain, likely with a sword.




Congrats, that's four, with a lengthy charge time that require Kain feed the reaver. Got a range yet?



Yes, and Kain's actual teleport is much slower than that. The manual mentions it, though, when it explains why you need to kill people to use reaver spells. By your argument, you do realize that means Samus charging her gun is just a gameplay mechanic, so she can spam all of her charging weapons, correct? That would also eliminate the Power Bomb's long-*** charge time.




Sure, probably double digit tons, at best.



That whole scene was Raziel and Kain just talking, Raziel never actually tried to free himself from Kain. That's barely a strength feat, especially considering Raziel's trouble with doors, eh?

Originally posted by The Scenario
The push activates the cutscene, that's more than part of it. Raziel tried to kick it and failed, and had to try again. Nothing you say can change what happened in that cutscene.



They're actually quite similar in size, or at least one chunk is. Still, that's above 100 ton feat. It doesn't matter what kind of feat it is, Ghirahim can still do that to Kain, likely with a sword.




Congrats, that's four, with a lengthy charge time that require Kain feed the reaver. Got a range yet?



Yes, and Kain's actual teleport is much slower than that. The manual mentions it, though, when it explains why you need to kill people to use reaver spells. By your argument, you do realize that means Samus charging her gun is just a gameplay mechanic, so she can spam all of her charging weapons, correct? That would also eliminate the Power Bomb's long-*** charge time.




Sure, probably double digit tons, at best.



That whole scene was Raziel and Kain just talking, Raziel never actually tried to free himself from Kain. That's barely a strength feat, especially considering Raziel's trouble with doors, eh?

All that happened was he attempted to push it forwards with his foot and it was jammed, so he used some force. I dont use my full strength everytime I try and open a door.....

He cant do anything to Kain, Kains durability is higher than his power.

Also, not in canon. This is not a gameplay mechanics battle. Range? what?

Its faster than pretty much any of Samus' charges and no, your using a meter only seen in the hud, nowhere is it shown or made canon in the games, wheras the charge for her guns can be seein in some quick time events and cutscenes.

Not double digit, impossible. It also looks like artificial construction, meaning it could be hollow.

Silly buggering again, Raziel was more or less went into rage on several occasions and Kain put him in his place, easily on both occasions.

Originally posted by Burning thought
All that happened was he attempted to push it forwards with his foot and it was jammed, so he used some force. I dont use my full strength everytime I try and open a door.....

After pushing on it with his hands once? He tried again, failed, and on the third hit knocked the gate maybe a meter. You know, I don't tend to use my full strength when I punch someone, so that line of thought leads to all kinds of things...



Ghirahim's power is higher than Raziel's, who has harmed Kain. Ergo, Ghirahim can harm Kain, especially since he has only a single blade to Raziel's two claws, and he can use both hands on one sword.



You can either have the dimensional teleport and the meter, or you can have neither. The spell is linked to the meter, that makes its use a gameplay mechanic. By range, I mean show me the teleport moving farther than maybe 2 meters per jump.



It's never mentioned, and doesn't actually appear in cutscenes. The charge beam, that is. This seems like a double standard to me. Hmm, what do you think of Link's stamina bar, incidentally?



In which case all of Raziel's blocks should be assumed hollow as well. Please apply this standard fairly, if you have to apply one. There are similarly sized metal balls that can weigh double digit tons, it's hardly impossible.



Which is why Raziel pinned Kain against a wall and then proceeded to politely wait for him to finish talking then? Really, it was a rather civil discussion, all things considered.

Originally posted by The Scenario
After pushing on it with his hands once? He tried again, failed, and on the third hit knocked the gate maybe a meter. You know, I don't tend to use my full strength when I punch someone, so that line of thought leads to all kinds of things...



Ghirahim's power is higher than Raziel's, who has harmed Kain. Ergo, Ghirahim can harm Kain, especially since he has only a single blade to Raziel's two claws, and he can use both hands on one sword.



You can either have the dimensional teleport and the meter, or you can have neither. The spell is linked to the meter, that makes its use a gameplay mechanic. By range, I mean show me the teleport moving farther than maybe 2 meters per jump.



It's never mentioned, and doesn't actually appear in cutscenes. The charge beam, that is. This seems like a double standard to me. Hmm, what do you think of Link's stamina bar, incidentally?



In which case all of Raziel's blocks should be assumed hollow as well. Please apply this standard fairly, if you have to apply one. There are similarly sized metal balls that can weigh double digit tons, it's hardly impossible.



Which is why Raziel pinned Kain against a wall and then proceeded to politely wait for him to finish talking then? Really, it was a rather civil discussion, all things considered.

Ignoring people again, first part is not part of the cutscene, its a default action. Also the fact that he succeeded sort of tosses your fairly pointless bashing of his feat and that he never actually struggled unlike most characters your displaying.

Erm no, not proven. And He does not have wraith blade either.

its not your decision, I can either use the canon and ignore the gameplay or ignore your poor extrapolations of gameplay altogether, I may do both. A teleport cuts out distance, so range is irrelevent although the range shown is perfectly fine.

Links stamina bar itself is a gameplay mechanic, the fact he can only do X amount of weapon slashes (Having not played the game, I dont know how many you can do in-game) is probably unlikely for even a human but we know being a biological organism he can get tired, he can strain etc so we know he has some limit to what he can do.

Of course I apply it fairly, only Raziels blocks are not as artifical, theres no way for them to be hollow and similiar constructions are never hollow afaik in real life. Crates that look like Links in this case could easily be.

He waited for Kain to speak, so what? He was still holding him, being a bodyguard its something I have done on many occassions, making sure someone cant move but also giving them the allowence to speak actually helps the situation, in Raziels case, hes just let loose his strongest attacks without bringing out his wraith blade and Kain was completly unharmed.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ignoring people again, first part is not part of the cutscene, its a default action. Also the fact that he succeeded sort of tosses your fairly pointless bashing of his feat and that he never actually struggled unlike most characters your displaying.

The default action activates the cutscene. The cutscene does not activate unless the default action is performed. The tail end of the default action actually appeared in the cutscene. Raziel is showing pushing himself backwards when he does it. Raziel failed once with his hands, then failed with a kick, and only on the third try did he succeed. You can't deny that he had trouble with it without ignoring the cutscene. Still, you're missing my entire point with this, which is that focusing on only one showing is beyond stupid. No, I do not actually think that Raziel is that weak, it's just a low showing. This is just me applying that line of thinking to Raziel as an example, primarily to show you why focusing on one showing is stupid.



Ghirahim broke a wall and threw debris that could weigh over 100 tons several meters. That's more power than Raziel. Ghirahim doesn't need the wraith blade, he has his own swords to stab Kain with.



That seems biased, why won't you use the same standard for everything? Just picking and choosing like that is pretty dishonest, especially if you say you're ignoring the game. Can you prove that all teleports cut out distance, or at least Kain's does? Because that sounds like something you made up, as well as a no-limits fallacy; there are many teleports in fiction that are short ranged, and the dimensional teleport has never moved Kain more than one or two meters.



In the same way, we know that the Blood Reaver consumes blood from those it kills, and that the reaver spells come from the reaver. The conclusion that the reaver needs blood to cast those spells is quite simply the same as the conclusion that Link can get tired. The meter in both cases simply represents that.




It's not a crate, it's a metal block. There is no reason for it to be hollow as it is not a container of any kind. That kind of metal block is not usually hollow either, not that they really exist like that.



So your point is that he is not trying to hurt Kain, simply talk to him. In which case it's unlikely he was actually using his strongest attacks, and without the wraith blade he was in fact not using his full power. If he was trying to kill Kain, there's no reason to hold back or allow him to speak. In either case, Raziel was in fact holding back there.

Originally posted by The Scenario
The default action activates the cutscene. The cutscene does not activate unless the default action is performed. The tail end of the default action actually appeared in the cutscene. Raziel is showing pushing himself backwards when he does it. Raziel failed once with his hands, then failed with a kick, and only on the third try did he succeed. You can't deny that he had trouble with it without ignoring the cutscene. Still, you're missing my entire point with this, which is that focusing on only one showing is beyond stupid. No, I do not actually think that Raziel is that weak, it's just a low showing. This is just me applying that line of thinking to Raziel as an example, primarily to show you why focusing on one showing is stupid.



Ghirahim broke a wall and threw debris that could weigh over 100 tons several meters. That's more power than Raziel. Ghirahim doesn't need the wraith blade, he has his own swords to stab Kain with.



That seems biased, why won't you use the same standard for everything? Just picking and choosing like that is pretty dishonest, especially if you say you're ignoring the game. Can you prove that all teleports cut out distance, or at least Kain's does? Because that sounds like something you made up, as well as a no-limits fallacy; there are many teleports in fiction that are short ranged, and the dimensional teleport has never moved Kain more than one or two meters.



In the same way, we know that the Blood Reaver consumes blood from those it kills, and that the reaver spells come from the reaver. The conclusion that the reaver needs blood to cast those spells is quite simply the same as the conclusion that Link can get tired. The meter in both cases simply represents that.




It's not a crate, it's a metal block. There is no reason for it to be hollow as it is not a container of any kind. That kind of metal block is not usually hollow either, not that they really exist like that.



So your point is that he is not trying to hurt Kain, simply talk to him. In which case it's unlikely he was actually using his strongest attacks, and without the wraith blade he was in fact not using his full power. If he was trying to kill Kain, there's no reason to hold back or allow him to speak. In either case, Raziel was in fact holding back there.

Not really, its just because he was up against a surface when he pressed forwards, again this is what happens when your argueing a game you dont know. And, trouble? you cant show me him having trouble, he tries softly once, then he adds a little force, thats it tbh. If you had a legitimate low showing maybe you would have a point.

Again, not proven, another claim without any calcluations. His own sword? lol, by the time hes finished hes going to be picking up the shards and trying to slit Kain with it.

I can bet the teleports in fiction that are short ranged are limited by a tecnological fault or physical excertion, Kains teleports are purely magic and this one is not even going through him. Again, how can you have a limit on distance when distance is not actually travelled.

some of the worst illogical deductions and reaching I have seen you do, the only fact we can conclude is that the reaver drinks blood, the second is that its enhanced by the emblems there is still no connection to spells and blood however, we know as I said, Link is a biological organism, in many cases human or as close as.

It looks like a crate to me, it looks especially artifical, meaing someone made it from piecies, not one big chunk, and I dont think people irl even make solid blocks of metal on purpose unless Links near a scrap yard but its appearance does not look alike to scrap.

Yes, because his claws love to speak! I would say the nigh bloodlust when he actually hits and attacks Kain is vastly more effort than when he topples the obelisk, which is the same "idle" movement he does for all the blocks in the game, without strain. Its true hes not using his "full" power, but then, neither is Kain, truth is your sort of making red herrings here, he still couldnt free himself from one of kains hands with both of his own.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not really, its just because he was up against a surface when he pressed forwards, again this is what happens when your argueing a game you dont know. And, trouble? you cant show me him having trouble, he tries softly once, then he adds a little force, thats it tbh. If you had a legitimate low showing maybe you would have a point.


You don't know Skyward Sword, while I have played Soul Reaver 2. Of course, Raziel does not play like a very strong character given that you need the wraith blade to kill practically anything and claws take forever. Not the best combat system, really, but that's irrelevant. In any case, it is a legitimate low showing because Raziel was shown to struggle the first two times he tried and failed to open the door.



Other than one piece of debris being as large as a boulder known to weigh 100 tons, not to mention the other pieces that were sent flying. The feat is simply above was Raziel is shown to be capable of. Plus, Ghirahim can make swords from thin air, and does so regularly in addition to the small shuriken/kunai things he throws around. Appropriate since his whole theme is swords. He's fast enough to block any of Kain's swings, especially if he dual weilds his swords.



Have you played Warcraft? Magic spell, known as Blink, it's pretty famous for being a short range teleport as well as extremely fast. Dungeons and Dragons has a spell called Dimension Door that's short ranged, as well as the actual Teleport spell which is longer ranged but still not infinite. Warhammer 40K has short ranged psychic teleports. Besides, you've either contradicted yourself or answered your own question: Teleports can have limited distance because of tech or exertion, but you can't have a limit on distance because distance isn't traveled? The obvious answer here would be that the spell or magic itself is limited. I would simply say that, unless the dimension reaver has teleported farther, two or three meters is its max because that's all it has shown. Kain's personal teleport has shown much greater range, but it's also much slower. Ghirahim also teleports pretty far, perhaps 50 meters or more from the temple to the bottom of the Sealed Grounds.



The meters is the connection, since it is stated that attacking enemies fills it with blood, and the special finishing moves that "feed the reaver" fill it with the blood of enemies. The reaver spells use that blood in the meter, so the obvious conclusion is that the reaver needs the blood to cast spell. Except we don't really need to conclude anything since this is explicitly spelled out in the manual. There is a difference between a mechanical abstraction and the thing it represents, and you can't deny both. Health bars (or hearts) don't exist, yes, but are you going to say that Link can't be killed? Magic (or TK) meters don't exist, but are you really saying that everyone has infinite magic? Because saying that Kain can use any reaver spell infinitely is doing exactly that, ignoring what the meter actually represents, which is the blood that fuels the spells. Characters can still be hurt without health bars, magic can still run out without a meter, and people can still get tired even if there isn't a fatigue meter. Reaver spells still need fuel without a blood meter.



It's not a crate. There is no opening on it at all and its only purpose is to be pushed onto switches or as a platform. People don't tend to build elaborate puzzle dungeons, either, so there's really nothing to compare it to. It's just a block of metal. Link also does stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08J2fUlKCC0#t=19m37s

So yeah.



That's not really evident, though, but if they aren't using full strength I don't think you should be applying a maximum strength feat it and calling it durability. Raziel has hurt Kain before and after, so not using full strength actually works as the best explanation for why Kain wasn't hurt.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You don't know Skyward Sword, while I have played Soul Reaver 2. Of course, Raziel does not play like a very strong character given that you need the wraith blade to kill practically anything and claws take forever. Not the best combat system, really, but that's irrelevant. In any case, it is a legitimate low showing because Raziel was shown to struggle the first two times he tried and failed to open the door.



Other than one piece of debris being as large as a boulder known to weigh 100 tons, not to mention the other pieces that were sent flying. The feat is simply above was Raziel is shown to be capable of. Plus, Ghirahim can make swords from thin air, and does so regularly in addition to the small shuriken/kunai things he throws around. Appropriate since his whole theme is swords. He's fast enough to block any of Kain's swings, especially if he dual weilds his swords.



Have you played Warcraft? Magic spell, known as Blink, it's pretty famous for being a short range teleport as well as extremely fast. Dungeons and Dragons has a spell called Dimension Door that's short ranged, as well as the actual Teleport spell which is longer ranged but still not infinite. Warhammer 40K has short ranged psychic teleports. Besides, you've either contradicted yourself or answered your own question: Teleports can have limited distance because of tech or exertion, but you can't have a limit on distance because distance isn't traveled? The obvious answer here would be that the spell or magic itself is limited. I would simply say that, unless the dimension reaver has teleported farther, two or three meters is its max because that's all it has shown. Kain's personal teleport has shown much greater range, but it's also much slower. Ghirahim also teleports pretty far, perhaps 50 meters or more from the temple to the bottom of the Sealed Grounds.



The meters is the connection, since it is stated that attacking enemies fills it with blood, and the special finishing moves that "feed the reaver" fill it with the blood of enemies. The reaver spells use that blood in the meter, so the obvious conclusion is that the reaver needs the blood to cast spell. Except we don't really need to conclude anything since this is explicitly spelled out in the manual. There is a difference between a mechanical abstraction and the thing it represents, and you can't deny both. Health bars (or hearts) don't exist, yes, but are you going to say that Link can't be killed? Magic (or TK) meters don't exist, but are you really saying that everyone has infinite magic? Because saying that Kain can use any reaver spell infinitely is doing exactly that, ignoring what the meter actually represents, which is the blood that fuels the spells. Characters can still be hurt without health bars, magic can still run out without a meter, and people can still get tired even if there isn't a fatigue meter. Reaver spells still need fuel without a blood meter.



It's not a crate. There is no opening on it at all and its only purpose is to be pushed onto switches or as a platform. People don't tend to build elaborate puzzle dungeons, either, so there's really nothing to compare it to. It's just a block of metal. Link also does stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08J2fUlKCC0#t=19m37s

So yeah.



That's not really evident, though, but if they aren't using full strength I don't think you should be applying a maximum strength feat it and calling it durability. Raziel has hurt Kain before and after, so not using full strength actually works as the best explanation for why Kain wasn't hurt.

And thats not SR 2. Show me the struggling, theres no struggling apart from in this thread from you, trying to use the fact he didnt just smash the door in his first attempt at opening it.

Thats your extrapolation, I disagree, it looks smaller and its still not a lifting feat. Lucky for him he wont run out then. He will try to block but Kains attack will go right through them and him at once.

Tech and excertion is not present here though is it, no...blink is designed speciifcally to only go short distances, its part of the spells use. Kain has no excertion and does not get in any way diminished by teleporting, if you can show me him tired or weakened purely because of teleporting then you may have a point.

The meters are a gameplay item not used on the forum or any form of logic. If you used the health bar as a comparison for why someoen can be kileld though, you would get a roll of the eyes just the same as your getting now.

Well at least we can actually see what they are for sure, they look like stone garden ornamentation and such.

Raziels using "more" strength and effort by far than in his best feat, the only thing logically unsound is using a minor feat like the obelisk on this, but since we dont have a feat where Raziel physically strains like we do with Bowser, I am forced to use the lower feat, the obelisk. Kain wasnt hurt because he has skin alike to super dense diamond in the fact it neither deformed, bruised or scratched at such force.

Originally posted by Burning thought
And thats not SR 2. Show me the struggling, theres no struggling apart from in this thread from you, trying to use the fact he didnt just smash the door in his first attempt at opening it.

That is, in fact, struggling. He pushed against the door and ended up pushing himself backwards. Then he failed to kick it open. Only on the last try did he finally get it open, presumably because it was loosened. Dunno why you object to this so much, it's just a low showing, and an inconsistency; not like I'm trying to lord it as Raziel's true strength or anything.



There's more than just the one rock, you know. Even if that one is smaller, adding the others makes it a superior feat, especially since he threw them several meters. Kain can't cut through Ghirahim's swords, nor his arms. The little orbit of blades should slow him down, too.



Enough with the handwaves, most teleports have range limits even if they're quite large. Dimension Door and Teleport, as well as 40K psyker teleports can't cover unlimited distance. Comic Book teleporters like Nightcrawler can't. You saying Kain can is a no limits fallacy. You need to prove the dimension reaver can go farther than it is shown to. Further, Kain isn't the one teleporting, it's the reaver, and guess what, it has a meter that runs out when it used.



You're trying to use a limited ability infinite times, that is more worthy of rolled eyes in my opinion. Rather like trying to claim he never runs out of TK or never needs to let it recover. The fact remains that Kain can't use the dimension reaver's abilities without feeding the reaver first.



And giant stone platforms.



That's not evident, you have no idea how much effort Raziel expended in either case, and there's no way to tell for sure. If he is holding back, likely because he's harmed Kain before and isn't using his strongest weapon, then it's hardly a feat at all. You can't say he was using more strength there, and for that matter the obelisk is Raziel's best feat, what's better? He just tossed Kain back a meter during the attack, so there's evidently hardly any force at all, and yet more evidence to Raziel holding back. Further, we know Kain's skin is nothing like diamond because he got his heart ripped out, and his flesh opened like normal skin. Ghirahim has a better claim to diamond skin given his whole theme is diamonds, not to mention his other forms.

Originally posted by The Scenario
That is, in fact, struggling. He pushed against the door and ended up pushing himself backwards. Then he failed to kick it open. Only on the last try did he finally get it open, presumably because it was loosened. Dunno why you object to this so much, it's just a low showing, and an inconsistency; not like I'm trying to lord it as Raziel's true strength or anything.



There's more than just the one rock, you know. Even if that one is smaller, adding the others makes it a superior feat, especially since he threw them several meters. Kain can't cut through Ghirahim's swords, nor his arms. The little orbit of blades should slow him down, too.



Enough with the handwaves, most teleports have range limits even if they're quite large. Dimension Door and Teleport, as well as 40K psyker teleports can't cover unlimited distance. Comic Book teleporters like Nightcrawler can't. You saying Kain can is a no limits fallacy. You need to prove the dimension reaver can go farther than it is shown to. Further, Kain isn't the one teleporting, it's the reaver, and guess what, it has a meter that runs out when it used.



You're trying to use a limited ability infinite times, that is more worthy of rolled eyes in my opinion. Rather like trying to claim he never runs out of TK or never needs to let it recover. The fact remains that Kain can't use the dimension reaver's abilities without feeding the reaver first.



And giant stone platforms.



That's not evident, you have no idea how much effort Raziel expended in either case, and there's no way to tell for sure. If he is holding back, likely because he's harmed Kain before and isn't using his strongest weapon, then it's hardly a feat at all. You can't say he was using more strength there, and for that matter the obelisk is Raziel's best feat, what's better? He just tossed Kain back a meter during the attack, so there's evidently hardly any force at all, and yet more evidence to Raziel holding back. Further, we know Kain's skin is nothing like diamond because he got his heart ripped out, and his flesh opened like normal skin. Ghirahim has a better claim to diamond skin given his whole theme is diamonds, not to mention his other forms.

He did not use his full strength in the first kick, you can see that and in the second he succeeded. Its not a low showing though, I use my foot to open doors, if I cant open them, it doesnt mean that using my full strength I could never damage the door.

Again, your doing the whole "ignoring evidence" play, also he didnt throw anything, it expanded outwards from an unkown reason, only thing we know is he did it. Yes because Ghirahims swords, and himself have more durability than the pressure at the core of the earth, oh wait...no they dont.

You cant show me them doing this, or the description that theres a range limt though can you, your probably relying on again, gameplay mechanics. Nightcrawler only teleports as far as he can see though, he does not even want to teleport past a wall.

Restated claim, you never countered anything here.

Hes not moving those though, a mechanism is.

I do have some idea, just like how I know Bowser strained with pain in his "feat", I know Raziel didnt, he didnt even make a sound unlike link every time he moves something, Raziel moves it like any obstacle. Kain absorbed the force, skin has elasticity, if you try and push someone over by using a small surface area your likely to fail no matter the force, Kain took it all with ease. Well the wraith blade is a godly weapon, a weapon even Nosgoth vampires fear. Considering you follow verse in which a sword can mean the difference between a boy and someone who can rival Gods its funny how bias you are towards this.

Originally posted by Burning thought
He did not use his full strength in the first kick, you can see that and in the second he succeeded. Its not a low showing though, I use my foot to open doors, if I cant open them, it doesnt mean that using my full strength I could never damage the door.

Even after he'd already failed to push it with his hands. At that point he knew he'd need more strength and failed again. That's a low showing, there's nothing you can really do about it.



That sounds like reaching to downplay a legitimate feat to me, we know that Ghirahim provided the force that threw the rocks, so what are you saying here? That Ghirahim isn't strong enough to throw them despite the evidence? I dunno about the earth's core, but Ghirahim certainly has enough durability to block Kain's attacks.



So where's the evidence that Kain can teleport farther than he's shown to? You need to prove it, it's not on me to disprove it. Nightcrawler's normal range limit is like 2 miles, not sure what you're talking about. Dimension Door has a non-epic limit of near 1000 feet. Blink is 20 yards. Kain has shown maybe 2-3 meters. You want more you should prove it.



You never proved anything here. You're saying that a limited use ability can be used infinitely based on nothing. So if you want to claim that, again, prove it.



By using Link's force.



You don't actually know whether or not Raziel struggled, and a grunt or lack thereof does not indicate anything. Raziel's a corpse, I don't think he even breathes. In any case, isn't it you who always goes on about Ganon only tossing the Master Sword a few meters, but when Raziel does the same you turn a blind eye? Something about there not not being much force at all? So, what are the Wraith Blade's actual feats? I mean, you must believe it's a god weapon for some reason besides people just saying stuff. that's never backed up. I mean, the Master Sword has cut through barriers and curses, hurt a guy that tanks castle busters, channeled lightning and all kinds of stuff, what's the Wraith Blade actually done besides fail to take Moebius' soul for 40 seconds?

Originally posted by The Scenario
Even after he'd already failed to push it with his hands. At that point he knew he'd need more strength and failed again. That's a low showing, there's nothing you can really do about it.



That sounds like reaching to downplay a legitimate feat to me, we know that Ghirahim provided the force that threw the rocks, so what are you saying here? That Ghirahim isn't strong enough to throw them despite the evidence? I dunno about the earth's core, but Ghirahim certainly has enough durability to block Kain's attacks.



So where's the evidence that Kain can teleport farther than he's shown to? You need to prove it, it's not on me to disprove it. Nightcrawler's normal range limit is like 2 miles, not sure what you're talking about. Dimension Door has a non-epic limit of near 1000 feet. Blink is 20 yards. Kain has shown maybe 2-3 meters. You want more you should prove it.



You never proved anything here. You're saying that a limited use ability can be used infinitely based on nothing. So if you want to claim that, again, prove it.



By using Link's force.



You don't actually know whether or not Raziel struggled, and a grunt or lack thereof does not indicate anything. Raziel's a corpse, I don't think he even breathes. In any case, isn't it you who always goes on about Ganon only tossing the Master Sword a few meters, but when Raziel does the same you turn a blind eye? Something about there not not being much force at all? So, what are the Wraith Blade's actual feats? I mean, you must believe it's a god weapon for some reason besides people just saying stuff. that's never backed up. I mean, the Master Sword has cut through barriers and curses, hurt a guy that tanks castle busters, channeled lightning and all kinds of stuff, what's the Wraith Blade actually done besides fail to take Moebius' soul for 40 seconds?

I can, I can point out you dont have a low showing until you show me Raziel grunting and straining against the door, showing a cutscene thats obscured and simply requires Raziel succeeding in his second kick.

We know in some form he created said force, either through spell or some other, rocks dont go flying from sword slashes or punches and we dont even see either. Also, no evidence, again a claim, he has no durability to do so.

Your link says they need to visualise the area and state direction and on top of that your spouting gameplay on these examples. Considering these tropes as long as Kain can visualise where hes going he can get there. Also your doing it again, spouting things as apprent "limts" without the logic or science behind it.

Ive yet to see a "limited use" ability.

Hes moving one object and the mechanism is moving the others, you cant prove Link used much force other than a basic push. Its like any real mechanism, there are many where humans apply some basic force but the mechanism does the rest, like say a drawbridge.

Yes I do, the same reason I know he struggled against Kain in the SR2 intro and the same way I know Bowser struggles, effort shown. Raziels never failed tossing a sword when using any manner of strength. I like how apprently comparing the wraith blade to the Mastersword makes you belive I think its a "God weapon" the Mastersword has shown little more than a key when necessery. Aside from the "castle busting" thing which isnt true, the MS has nothing but a few plot specific effects and been used as a key to open certain temples and devices, as a combat weapon its pathetic. The wraith blade is pretty much the power core of the most powerful blade in LoK that literally defeated a God (great for someone like you who dotes on the MS's titles), it devours souls and has lists of elemental powers imbued by all the balance guardians and elementsi ts absorbed. Its also the combined souls of Kains sons that Raziel has devoured including his own which by themselves turned what was essentially dead mortal corpses into beings that by themselves could give Link a run for his money then youve got the soul devouring itself.

By the end of its games it can do anything from exploding with elemental power, devour souls or turn its user invisible. The MS can do what? combatwise its not much more than a regular sword, you can have your castle busting nonsense which is unproven but what is proven, is the wraith blades power to greatly wound someone who can take hundreds of times the earths cores pressure in the area hes struck and even cause great internal wounds.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I can, I can point out you dont have a low showing until you show me Raziel grunting and straining against the door, showing a cutscene thats obscured and simply requires Raziel succeeding in his second kick.

Raziel doesn't grunt, but I have already shown you him straining against the door no less than twice. You can't deny it, but what I'm saying you can do is say it's inconsistent. Please stop deliberately missing this point.



Again, Ghirahim's magic has a distinctive diamond pattern. There was no spell, he just broke through it. That makes Ghirahim stronger than Kain, and he's already got good enough durability feats from catching and blocking Link with the Master Sword.





Where's the gameplay mechanics? Please quote them, because I haven't used any here. Even visualizing the area, if it's out of range the spell fails, and Blink is stated to have a maximum of 20 yards. If you want Kain to go farther, you really need to prove it. You're the one saying no distance is traveled and making a no limit fallacy, how about you provide evidence and science it up?



It's that thing where Kain has to kill people to feed the reaver so it can use its spells. He can't use them all the time until you prove he can, so if I were you I'd get right on that.



Just a reminder; you still need to prove your case.



But it's all magic! Still a nice bit of strength even if it isn't moving the platforms.



So Raziel struggling in the Soul Reaver 2 into only tossed the light weight Kain back a few feet? That list of Wraith Blade info is little more than a bunch of titles, including the implication that the Elder God is that powerful for a being who has no feats. Its only "soul devouring" feat was against the already dead Moebius and it took more than 45 seconds, unless you want to go use gameplay for it.



While the Master Sword's power is mostly defensive given that it protects from curses and polymorph effects, as well as turning an opponent's magic against them, it also cuts through barriers, shoots blasts of energy and turns people to stone. The Master Sword cutting someone who tanks castle busters focused onto a spear point is > the wraith blade cutting someone who tanks claw strikes. They're pretty incomparable.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Raziel doesn't grunt, but I have already shown you him straining against the door no less than twice. You can't deny it, but what I'm saying you can do is say it's inconsistent. Please stop deliberately missing this point.



Again, Ghirahim's magic has a distinctive diamond pattern. There was no spell, he just broke through it. That makes Ghirahim stronger than Kain, and he's already got good enough durability feats from catching and blocking Link with the Master Sword.





Where's the gameplay mechanics? Please quote them, because I haven't used any here. Even visualizing the area, if it's out of range the spell fails, and Blink is stated to have a maximum of 20 yards. If you want Kain to go farther, you really need to prove it. You're the one saying no distance is traveled and making a no limit fallacy, how about you provide evidence and science it up?



It's that thing where Kain has to kill people to feed the reaver so it can use its spells. He can't use them all the time until you prove he can, so if I were you I'd get right on that.



Just a reminder; you still need to prove your case.



But it's all magic! Still a nice bit of strength even if it isn't moving the platforms.



So Raziel struggling in the Soul Reaver 2 into only tossed the light weight Kain back a few feet? That list of Wraith Blade info is little more than a bunch of titles, including the implication that the Elder God is that powerful for a being who has no feats. Its only "soul devouring" feat was against the already dead Moebius and it took more than 45 seconds, unless you want to go use gameplay for it.



While the Master Sword's power is mostly defensive given that it protects from curses and polymorph effects, as well as turning an opponent's magic against them, it also cuts through barriers, shoots blasts of energy and turns people to stone. The Master Sword cutting someone who tanks castle busters focused onto a spear point is > the wraith blade cutting someone who tanks claw strikes. They're pretty incomparable.

No you have not, youve shown at best a default action done against any surface and not a part of the cutscene at all, if you had played the games you would know its very annoying. I think you should stop deliberately ignoring the point, that this is not a showing at all tbh. If you had a decent number of low showings as compared to high, then you would have a point.

Well we dont see anything at all, so for all we know the diamond pattern appeared before it blew open so claiming there was no spell is just as ignorant as saying there "was" him just physically breaking through. And no, it means Ghirahim is capable of projecting rock breaking force (rock not being able to take that much) over an area. Which is lesser in power than Kains strikes....show me the math proving more power than Kains strikes.

Look up distance, distance= velocityx time, Kain is not going at any velocity and time does not cover distance either, since Kain is not technically physically passing it. Your claiming distance as a limit where distance is not travelled scientifically speaking.

Oh right gameplay, no sorry, we dont use gameplay mechanics here. I have yet to see the magic of the reaver diminished in any way canonically. Infact, theres no logical or fictional (in the game) description of comparison to the blood and the reaver other than, it drinks blood. The spells are an addition, the game has switched out a lot of mechanics over the series but you wouldnt know that.

on the contary, you brought it up, so its your case not mine. Also GK unlike you made a logical argument concerning Samus, she needs phazon to use phazon power, if thats how its shown in the game consistently then that makes some logical sense.

Not really, I could arguably do the same, we dont know anything about the mechanism.

There was one title that I outlined to mock the whole "zomg but its got the power of the deities in it!" and hes just as featless as the LoZ ones, infact he has more feats since they have zero screen time in the game. Thats not soul devouring, if you noticed Moebius was released to the Elder God, not absorbed into the reaver.

All basic fare tbh, by its very nature all it does is counter some magic Ganon/Zant may have done. And the MS has never cut (assuming its possible) through the disembodied immaterial head form of Ganon and we dont see any of that happen, nor can you compare any pressure or strength ratios for the spear since it has no shown feat.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No you have not, youve shown at best a default action done against any surface and not a part of the cutscene at all, if you had played the games you would know its very annoying. I think you should stop deliberately ignoring the point, that this is not a showing at all tbh. If you had a decent number of low showings as compared to high, then you would have a point.

I have played the game, and that doesn't change the fact that it still happens and fails. In fact, it is the action that activates the cutscene. It is a showing, you understand, precisely because it's in cutscene and involves Raziel's strength. Well, Raziel has very few showings in general, whether low or high, which just makes it more interesting.



Actually, we see the debris go flying with no diamond patterns, which does indicate it was done without a spell. If there was a spell it would have been shown, as it stands, it was just Ghirahim breaking through. You're ignoring that the debris went flying quite a distance, farther than Raziel can throw anything and much larger than his blocks, which does make Ghirahim the stronger one, especially adding in the 100 ton boulder picture. You've never done any math to show that Kain has any power behind his strikes, though, and this really doesn't need to be mathed to figure out it's better than Raziel's feats.



And you've given no evidence that this equals infinite distance, nor any evidence that it reaches farther than the two meters that appear to be its maximum. So still a no limits fallacy until you get some actual proof Kain can go farther.



You still seem unable to tell the difference between a mechanic and an abstraction. Do you not understand that a mechanic can represent something in canon? Yes, the meter is a mechanic, but it is stated to represent the amount of blood in the reaver, and when full can increase the reaver's power and allow the use of a reaver spell. Again, it's like saying Link has infinite stamina, or infinite magic just because the meter that measures it is a mechanic. It's your claim that Kain can use it infinitely, so it's actually up to you to prove it, and the reaver needing blood to use spells is logically spelled out in the Defiance manual, so ignoring that is just you ignoring inconvenient canon. Samus only needs phazon available in gameplay, after all, and Kain is consistently shown throughout the game to need to feed the reaver before he can use its spells. It's the same situation, really.



'k?



I'm not sure why you mock something I never said, but okay, you've successfully established you know nothing of Legend of Zelda. I could list the goddesses' on screen feats, but since that was never part of my claim I don't feel the need to. Exactly, it proves the wraith blade couldn't consume Moebius' soul even when he was impaled by it, that's a terrible showing.



The spear has two feats of breaking a barrier and blowing up a castle, both a which are much greater than anything Raziel or Kain has ever done, and the Master Sword has broken a barrier as well as cut through Ganon.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I have played the game, and that doesn't change the fact that it still happens and fails. In fact, it is the action that activates the cutscene. It is a showing, you understand, precisely because it's in cutscene and involves Raziel's strength. Well, Raziel has very few showings in general, whether low or high, which just makes it more interesting.



Actually, we see the debris go flying with no diamond patterns, which does indicate it was done without a spell. If there was a spell it would have been shown, as it stands, it was just Ghirahim breaking through. You're ignoring that the debris went flying quite a distance, farther than Raziel can throw anything and much larger than his blocks, which does make Ghirahim the stronger one, especially adding in the 100 ton boulder picture. You've never done any math to show that Kain has any power behind his strikes, though, and this really doesn't need to be mathed to figure out it's better than Raziel's feats.



And you've given no evidence that this equals infinite distance, nor any evidence that it reaches farther than the two meters that appear to be its maximum. So still a no limits fallacy until you get some actual proof Kain can go farther.



You still seem unable to tell the difference between a mechanic and an abstraction. Do you not understand that a mechanic can represent something in canon? Yes, the meter is a mechanic, but it is stated to represent the amount of blood in the reaver, and when full can increase the reaver's power and allow the use of a reaver spell. Again, it's like saying Link has infinite stamina, or infinite magic just because the meter that measures it is a mechanic. It's your claim that Kain can use it infinitely, so it's actually up to you to prove it, and the reaver needing blood to use spells is logically spelled out in the Defiance manual, so ignoring that is just you ignoring inconvenient canon. Samus only needs phazon available in gameplay, after all, and Kain is consistently shown throughout the game to need to feed the reaver before he can use its spells. It's the same situation, really.



'k?



I'm not sure why you mock something I never said, but okay, you've successfully established you know nothing of Legend of Zelda. I could list the goddesses' on screen feats, but since that was never part of my claim I don't feel the need to. Exactly, it proves the wraith blade couldn't consume Moebius' soul even when he was impaled by it, that's a terrible showing.



The spear has two feats of breaking a barrier and blowing up a castle, both a which are much greater than anything Raziel or Kain has ever done, and the Master Sword has broken a barrier as well as cut through Ganon.

Well it does, we can all do that, claim every Action game characters weapons are soft and blunt because you cant carve through every wall in the game!! its an engine thing and the action button actives the cutscene.

No, we dont see the origin of force, nothing. And your making up nonsense, you dont know anything about how far Raziel can throw something.

wut? I just proved there is no distance, distance is irrelevent, we only know Kain takes distance out of the equation and arrives where he wants his spell to take him.

It can if the canon actually mensions that blood powers spells in any way, LoK does never say this at all. The reaver does not even have a container on it, its not like Kain has a bottle of blood on the reaver that goes down when he casts a spell.....you have no indication canonically whatsoever.

Wheres the couldnt? cant you prove it tried? you dont seem to know what your saying again, funny how much of a hypcorite you are in one sentence "you dont know anything about Zelda" then proving you dont know LoK.

It has one feat of collapsing some barrier, which fell apart like glass and we have an ambigious event. I cant see how thats greater than pressure that dwarfs the core of a planet at the tip of your finger....

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well it does, we can all do that, claim every Action game characters weapons are soft and blunt because you cant carve through every wall in the game!! its an engine thing and the action button actives the cutscene.

Pushing against the wall activates the cutscene, though, and Raziel still hits the door twice and fails. Are you starting to get my point with this example yet?



We see it go flying and Ghirahim out of nowhere, that's enough to say he's the one throwing it. I know exactly how far Raziel can throw things, he throws those stone block barely a meter and has no feats for you to claim much better.



You told me to go look up an equation. That's not proof of Kain teleporting more than 2 meters.



It does have a container: the little lights that glow when Kain gets a new fragment of the emblem. The manual states all of this, it's canon. It's also still on you to prove the claim that Kain can use it infinitely.



Aren't you the one that went on about these things consuming souls "on strike"? In which case, the simple fact it struck Moebius indicates it would have been trying. Honestly, thugh, if your best defense is "the Wraith Blade was holding back!" then it seems that you don't have any better evidence?




It's still a feat for the Master Sword. Castle busting force on a sharp point >>>>>> half of tipping obelisk force on 2 sharp points.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Pushing against the wall activates the cutscene, though, and Raziel still hits the door twice and fails. Are you starting to get my point with this example yet?



We see it go flying and Ghirahim out of nowhere, that's enough to say he's the one throwing it. I know exactly how far Raziel can throw things, he throws those stone block barely a meter and has no feats for you to claim much better.



You told me to go look up an equation. That's not proof of Kain teleporting more than 2 meters.



It does have a container: the little lights that glow when Kain gets a new fragment of the emblem. The manual states all of this, it's canon. It's also still on you to prove the claim that Kain can use it infinitely.



Aren't you the one that went on about these things consuming souls "on strike"? In which case, the simple fact it struck Moebius indicates it would have been trying. Honestly, thugh, if your best defense is "the Wraith Blade was holding back!" then it seems that you don't have any better evidence?




It's still a feat for the Master Sword. Castle busting force on a sharp point >>>>>> half of tipping obelisk force on 2 sharp points.

Pressing action activtates the cutscene, however if your running up against any surface you get that motion. I think your failing your point tbh.

We know he was responsible in some way, not how. Raziel never "tries" to throw stone blocks...when has he tried to toss around stone blocks? and the obelisk feat proves better.

Its proof distance, or your "2 meters" is irrelevent.

Since when is everything a users manuel states is canon to the games storyline? wut? lol....you have a funny idea of how games vs works and mechanics still. Also show me the "container" for blood that apprently drains when used..you seem to think theres gaugable store in the canon.

The soul reaver sword takes souls on strike, theres also the fact Raziels intent was that the EG was to devour Moebius' soul, all were seeing is the transition between a soul being devoured by the wraith blade and by the Elder God.

Erm no, a castles made of stone, so to wreck it which Ganon did with a magic blast based on the source imo is to create force in the area of the stone which magic can do without physical effort. Theres no physcal processes here tbh, none you can prove, you cant even prove what the spear did, only that it made Ganon growl like an angry cat.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Pressing action activtates the cutscene, however if your running up against any surface you get that motion. I think your failing your point tbh.

It changes nothing, you realize? Low showings and things, this still happened.



Whenever Raziel pushes or kicks a stone block it doesn't go half as far as Ghirahim throwing the debris.



You didn't prove anything, though. You told me to look up something irrelevant and claimed Kain could teleport infinite distance.



Since forever, obviously. Or at least at the start of gaming since the purpose is to explain the game and story. You still don't get how abstractions work? I'm not saying the meter is canon, I'm saying it represents something that is. Where is your evidence he can use it infinitely, by the way?



You mean the wraith blade failing to devour Moebius' soul? This is not the only cutscene that involves the wraith blade hitting someone and failing to take their soul, so do you have any better feats?



The heck are you talking about? Midna slamming the spear into Ganon is what destroyed the castle with physical forces, though with magic as a source. Why are you saying I can't prove things that prove themselves?

Originally posted by The Scenario
It changes nothing, you realize? Low showings and things, this still happened.



Whenever Raziel pushes or kicks a stone block it doesn't go half as far as Ghirahim throwing the debris.



You didn't prove anything, though. You told me to look up something irrelevant and claimed Kain could teleport infinite distance.



Since forever, obviously. Or at least at the start of gaming since the purpose is to explain the game and story. You still don't get how abstractions work? I'm not saying the meter is canon, I'm saying it represents something that is. Where is your evidence he can use it infinitely, by the way?



You mean the wraith blade failing to devour Moebius' soul? This is not the only cutscene that involves the wraith blade hitting someone and failing to take their soul, so do you have any better feats?



The heck are you talking about? Midna slamming the spear into Ganon is what destroyed the castle with physical forces, though with magic as a source. Why are you saying I can't prove things that prove themselves?

I dont see how Raziel knocking a door off its hinges after a gentle hit beforehand really means anything.

Because Raziel does not want it to? hes not trying to toss it? Raziel moves blocks easily inti place. Unless you show me Ghirahim pushing and kicking then your making hot air again.

How is the scientific expression of distance, and the proof that teleport does not have anything to do with it at all irrelevent?

no, its purpose is to provide instructions for the game. The evidence he can use it infinitly is the same as Ganon using barriers, Girahim teleports and Kratos his super strength, they dont use their powers over time, why should Kain or the reaver?

The scripted animation has Raziel doing everything from using his hands or his reaver to devour souls in seconds, its what it does. What "feats" are you asking for? the fact it affects souls by itself is far more than the MS has ever done.

There was no slam, there was a low growl, thats all we know the spear thrust did.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont see how Raziel knocking a door off its hinges after a gentle hit beforehand really means anything.

Funny, because I don't see a gentle hit, especially after pushing against it.



Again, if you're arguing that people are holding back you're cheating yourself out of any feats. I've shown you Ghirahim breaking through the wall, could you stop trying to downplay it, though?



Where was the proof that the teleport has nothing to with it? I don't think you ever presented that. And you still need the evidence for Kain going farther.



Because he can't he can't in game? Really, that's all there is to it. He can't do it in the game or cutscenes, I see no reason to allow it here.



Both times it's hit someone in cutscene it failed to do this, so it seems the Wraith has too many low showings. It's not really "more" than the Master Sword so much as it's different.



And blew up the castle. That's a fact.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Funny, because I don't see a gentle hit, especially after pushing against it.



Again, if you're arguing that people are holding back you're cheating yourself out of any feats. I've shown you Ghirahim breaking through the wall, could you stop trying to downplay it, though?



Where was the proof that the teleport has nothing to with it? I don't think you ever presented that. And you still need the evidence for Kain going farther.



Because he can't he can't in game? Really, that's all there is to it. He can't do it in the game or cutscenes, I see no reason to allow it here.



Both times it's hit someone in cutscene it failed to do this, so it seems the Wraith has too many low showings. It's not really "more" than the Master Sword so much as it's different.



And blew up the castle. That's a fact.

Theres a not so gentle hit on Kain in SR 2 intro, then theres a tap of his foot, which Kain also does in Defiance. There was no intent or reason for Raziel to run at the door using his full strength, when he usually just opens them. Its like finding my front door cold and frozen stiff when its been snowing, I dont simply assume and punch the door down.

No, why would I cheat myself out of feats if them using little to no effort can supercede the maximum of many others? youve not shown me him breaking down teh wall because we dont see it in the scene itself, we can only assume that he did so, but we cant assume how, not that he "kicked" it down, not that ive even seen him use his hands or feet.

So your now argueing that somehow, teleportation covers "distance" physically? even though the user is not, in this case physically present...right, your doing it again, your up against a wall so youll rinse and repeat without argument.

He cant do what exactly? nobody has shown an "unlimited" amount of their powers, that doesnt mean we assume they can only use each once or twice just because thats all they did in the game. You need to prove theres some energy source thats decreasing when Kains uses it, and your best is reaching for a gameplay mechanic bar and apprently a manuel which you claim is entirely canon cover to cover? you know i never realised the beings in Lok were privy to system info on their games.

The wraith blade is more or less a extension of Raziels will, Raziel never intended to devour it then, again your ignoring me so I dont know why I am posting to this, your just repeating yourself over and over, we can all do that, maybe ill just quote my previous posts every time you make one.

No, we know the castle blew up, we dont know why but Ganon is the biggest culprit.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Theres a not so gentle hit on Kain in SR 2 intro, then theres a tap of his foot, which Kain also does in Defiance. There was no intent or reason for Raziel to run at the door using his full strength, when he usually just opens them. Its like finding my front door cold and frozen stiff when its been snowing, I dont simply assume and punch the door down.

Those are the same motion, though. There's really no difference aside from the arbitrary. Yeah, that's why Raziel tried to kick it, right? No, it quite clearly shows that Raziel tried to open the door, failed, then unlike you tried to kick it and failed. At that point he had a reason to use more strength, and still failed to open the door. Low showing...



Because that is the maximum for Raziel. You can't claim it's higher just because you decided Raziel wasn't trying. I'm not saying Ghirahim kicked it down so much as I'm saying he charged through it like the scene shows. If you haven't seen Ghirahim use his hands and feet you're missing rather vital parts of his fights.



No, I'm not saying that teleportation covers distance physically. I'm asking you to prove that teleportation means infinite distance, which you have not yet done. I think the point you're missing is that I'm not really arguing right now. I'm urging you to get your argument together and prove it. You're claiming things you have no evidence for, and until you get that evidence there's not much I can do right now.




That is the very definition of No Limits Fallacy. You honestly seem to be suggesting that despite Kain not showing infinite use, he can still use it infinitely and without fuel (i.e: blood.) Nobody has shown an infinite use of their powers because their powers are not infinite. By that logic Ghirahim has infinite strength because he's never shown a limit, and that's what you need to understand. It's not my claim to prove; it's yours, and you need to get on it. Please prove Kain can use the dimension reaver in the way you describe.



Do you know why I'm repeating myself? I'd say it's mostly because I'm asking you questions you aren't answering, so I have to ask again if I want an answer. If you quote your previous posts it'll just be more of you dodging questions. What are the Wraith Blades feats? Actually, is this even relevant to Ghirahim vs. Kain? As I recall the original discussion involved Raziel only knocking Kain back a few feet, which indicated he was holding back there.



Evidence suggests otherwise. Midna was the one with the weapon, which she was using immediately before the castle exploded. This still isn't relevant to Ghirahim vs. Kain right now.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Those are the same motion, though. There's really no difference aside from the arbitrary. Yeah, that's why Raziel tried to kick it, right? No, it quite clearly shows that Raziel tried to open the door, failed, then unlike you tried to kick it and failed. At that point he had a reason to use more strength, and still failed to open the door. Low showing...



Because that is the maximum for Raziel. You can't claim it's higher just because you decided Raziel wasn't trying. I'm not saying Ghirahim kicked it down so much as I'm saying he charged through it like the scene shows. If you haven't seen Ghirahim use his hands and feet you're missing rather vital parts of his fights.



No, I'm not saying that teleportation covers distance physically. I'm asking you to prove that teleportation means infinite distance, which you have not yet done. I think the point you're missing is that I'm not really arguing right now. I'm urging you to get your argument together and prove it. You're claiming things you have no evidence for, and until you get that evidence there's not much I can do right now.




That is the very definition of No Limits Fallacy. You honestly seem to be suggesting that despite Kain not showing infinite use, he can still use it infinitely and without fuel (i.e: blood.) Nobody has shown an infinite use of their powers because their powers are not infinite. By that logic Ghirahim has infinite strength because he's never shown a limit, and that's what you need to understand. It's not my claim to prove; it's yours, and you need to get on it. Please prove Kain can use the dimension reaver in the way you describe.



Do you know why I'm repeating myself? I'd say it's mostly because I'm asking you questions you aren't answering, so I have to ask again if I want an answer. If you quote your previous posts it'll just be more of you dodging questions. What are the Wraith Blades feats? Actually, is this even relevant to Ghirahim vs. Kain? As I recall the original discussion involved Raziel only knocking Kain back a few feet, which indicated he was holding back there.



Evidence suggests otherwise. Midna was the one with the weapon, which she was using immediately before the castle exploded. This still isn't relevant to Ghirahim vs. Kain right now.

Erm no...and, he never even tried to open the door. He attempted to open it with the kick, then he kicks it harder and it flies off its hinges. He doesnt use much more effort to move over the giant obelisk either, it would be a low showing if Raziel audiably groaned like Link, Bowser and other characters while struggling and shaking against the door, this only seems to happen in your mind.

I didnt decide, the game did. Theres no "charge" shown, the only thing ive seen him use his hands for are to catch links blade, I have yet to see him smash anything down.

Yes you are, your claiming teleportation has a maximum distance, distance it does not technically even cover.

Erm no, a no limits fallacy is when you claim a power or ability has no limit to its power, there are many limits to kains powers but the number of times he can use them has never been considered in the games, justl ike how many times Kratos can use super strength, Dante his speed or Link his skill with the bow. And no, that would be a no limit fallacy. I like how you try and claim a no limit fallacy against something that isnt while using the example of a real one.

Yes I do, because you cant actually form an argument against most of these points and somehow think your "doubts" for certain things automatically mean I have to prove every random doubt wrong. Thats not how argumnet works.

Not really, evidence suggests Midna thrust a magic spear, thats it.

Well that wall busting feat would make him the stronger of the two by a fair amount.

Nothing to his durability though. His base form can deflect Link's MS slashes and his armour form trumps that. I mean, Demise* get him struck by lightning and most of all smash him around without him breaking.

*Demise being the original Ganon and Dorf would make him at GG strength. Girahim's body must be crazy tough to take these hits in his stride.


As his most of his attacks wont be effective the only thing Kain can do to win is strike at the center of his chest. Do they have knowledge of each other?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Erm no...and, he never even tried to open the door. He attempted to open it with the kick, then he kicks it harder and it flies off its hinges. He doesnt use much more effort to move over the giant obelisk either, it would be a low showing if Raziel audiably groaned like Link, Bowser and other characters while struggling and shaking against the door, this only seems to happen in your mind.

Are you you still ignoring Raziel pushing against the door with his claws and failing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcZ28gZyNJo#t=3m48s
It is part of the cutscene that Raziel pressed up against the door with both hands, failed, tried to kick the door, failed again, and only on the third try managed to knock it only a meter. Shouldn't it have gone flying if your sun core nonsense was worth anything? Further, no, you're seriously trying to Raziel wasn't using any effort, and basing this only on a grunt? Honestly, all Raziel did there was tip some stone, you still calling that impressive?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvAst00-FZ0#t=13m45s
Just look at it. The wall simply explodes outwards and we see Ghirahim where the the rubble was, laughing. You can't deny that he busted through that, tossing the debris in the process. Ghirahim is blatantly stronger than Kain, since Kain still has no real strength feats. Why would Ghirahim even be using his arms or legs here, and why does that matter? All he's going to do is teleport up to Kain and cut him in half.



Prove your claim, please. Otherwise, it's just a no-limits fallacy you're trying to claim as fact.



That is exactly what you are doing, though. Of course, now you're claiming that Kratos and Dante would never get tired and Link would never be fatigued, which I would appreciate if those weren't also No-Limits Fallacies. Fact is, the game shows a limit, you need better evidence for why Kain can teleport as you describe.



Is this irrelevant to Ghirahim vs. Kain? Yes, yes it is. Is "can you prove that?" a legitimate question? Yes, yes it is.




Evidence shows the castle exploding immediately afterward, thereby suggesting that the spear thrust destroyed the castle. This is how evidence works.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Are you you still ignoring Raziel pushing against the door with his claws and failing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcZ28gZyNJo#t=3m48s
It is part of the cutscene that Raziel pressed up against the door with both hands, failed, tried to kick the door, failed again, and only on the third try managed to knock it only a meter. Shouldn't it have gone flying if your sun core nonsense was worth anything? Further, no, you're seriously trying to Raziel wasn't using any effort, and basing this only on a grunt? Honestly, all Raziel did there was tip some stone, you still calling that impressive?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvAst00-FZ0#t=13m45s
Just look at it. The wall simply explodes outwards and we see Ghirahim where the the rubble was, laughing. You can't deny that he busted through that, tossing the debris in the process. Ghirahim is blatantly stronger than Kain, since Kain still has no real strength feats. Why would Ghirahim even be using his arms or legs here, and why does that matter? All he's going to do is teleport up to Kain and cut him in half.



Prove your claim, please. Otherwise, it's just a no-limits fallacy you're trying to claim as fact.



That is exactly what you are doing, though. Of course, now you're claiming that Kratos and Dante would never get tired and Link would never be fatigued, which I would appreciate if those weren't also No-Limits Fallacies. Fact is, the game shows a limit, you need better evidence for why Kain can teleport as you describe.



Is this irrelevant to Ghirahim vs. Kain? Yes, yes it is. Is "can you prove that?" a legitimate question? Yes, yes it is.




Evidence shows the castle exploding immediately afterward, thereby suggesting that the spear thrust destroyed the castle. This is how evidence works.

Yes because having actually played the game, I know he does it to almost every surface you push him against, it does not activate the scene like you believe it does. And no its not part of the cutscene, cutscene starts at 3:48 when the black bars appear top and bottom.

Raziel has earth core pressure at the very tip of his claws, so if he slashed the door in the cutscene and it didnt get damaged, then you would have a point. Raziel wasnt using any effort because we dont see him do so, anything we see for Bowser, Link etc shows effort, grunts, their bodies shaking etc, Raziel struggles more against Kains one arm, than he did when easily toppling the obelisk.

First, Kain could react to thingd at fracitions of a second, so no, Kains going to counter and cut G in half, second, he may just let the blade connect because youve yet to show a feat of actual strength, the whole ambigious "he was standing the debris, so he clearly used his hands or physical strength to bust it!" is a no go.

I explained before theres no "no limit" fallacy, no more than there is in the number of swords G can summon, or how many times G can teleport.

I never said they would never get tired, but their actual power itself, the ability to do those feats does not disapear, if I said Kratos only showed that strength for ten minutes in one scene therefore, he can only use his great strength for 10 minutes, I would be making a daft claim like how someone can only teleport so much.

Theres no immediatly, the transition is neither clear and the growl is the most immediatn thing, no castle bust.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes because having actually played the game, I know he does it to almost every surface you push him against, it does not activate the scene like you believe it does. And no its not part of the cutscene, cutscene starts at 3:48 when the black bars appear top and bottom.

Raziel has earth core pressure at the very tip of his claws, so if he slashed the door in the cutscene and it didnt get damaged, then you would have a point. Raziel wasnt using any effort because we dont see him do so, anything we see for Bowser, Link etc shows effort, grunts, their bodies shaking etc, Raziel struggles more against Kains one arm, than he did when easily toppling the obelisk.



I have have played the game, though. That doesn't really invalidate it so much as it proves the point. Raziel fails to open doors, and it's a specific plot point that he can't get past obstacles that his strength would make trivial. It all comes down to his myriad low showings. Didn't your math get proven faulty a while back? I don't think you should be clinging to it like that if that's the case, and Raziel did struggle tipping the obelisk, not sure why you're saying he didn't.




No, he really can't, since Kain has no real speed feats if you don't want to be a hypocrite about several things. Ghirahim's proven to be faster in any case via his charge across the bridge, so he's got the speed advantage in addition to strength. Since we saw Ghirahim break through the wall, we know he's stronger than Kain or Raziel, though. It's not really ambiguous that Ghirahim did it, either. Why you downplay?



Yes, there is. It'd be a No-Limits Fallacy to claim otherwise. Ghirahim's number of swords is arbitrarily high, but I would never claim it's infinite. Same with the teleport, he's got to run out eventually, it's just unlikely he'll run out before killing Kain. You just need to prove that Kain can teleport as you describe, without the long charge time that requires him to kill things. I believe this point was about distance anyway, as you still need to prove that Kain can go farther than two meters with his short ranged teleport.



That's not what I'm claiming, though. Sounds like a strawman. All I'm asking is that you prove Kain can teleport farther and more often than the game shows, because the game has put a specific limit on the power. You should be happy, since Link now has a fatigue limit, too.




Duh, it's during and after that. There's a whole scene change there, it's not going to look immediate like that. Fact is, Midna was still the only one seen to attack, Ganon was specifically seen to not attack. There is no other option here.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I have have played the game, though. That doesn't really invalidate it so much as it proves the point. Raziel fails to open doors, and it's a specific plot point that he can't get past obstacles that his strength would make trivial. It all comes down to his myriad low showings. Didn't your math get proven faulty a while back? I don't think you should be clinging to it like that if that's the case, and Raziel did struggle tipping the obelisk, not sure why you're saying he didn't.




No, he really can't, since Kain has no real speed feats if you don't want to be a hypocrite about several things. Ghirahim's proven to be faster in any case via his charge across the bridge, so he's got the speed advantage in addition to strength. Since we saw Ghirahim break through the wall, we know he's stronger than Kain or Raziel, though. It's not really ambiguous that Ghirahim did it, either. Why you downplay?



Yes, there is. It'd be a No-Limits Fallacy to claim otherwise. Ghirahim's number of swords is arbitrarily high, but I would never claim it's infinite. Same with the teleport, he's got to run out eventually, it's just unlikely he'll run out before killing Kain. You just need to prove that Kain can teleport as you describe, without the long charge time that requires him to kill things. I believe this point was about distance anyway, as you still need to prove that Kain can go farther than two meters with his short ranged teleport.



That's not what I'm claiming, though. Sounds like a strawman. All I'm asking is that you prove Kain can teleport farther and more often than the game shows, because the game has put a specific limit on the power. You should be happy, since Link now has a fatigue limit, too.




Duh, it's during and after that. There's a whole scene change there, it's not going to look immediate like that. Fact is, Midna was still the only one seen to attack, Ganon was specifically seen to not attack. There is no other option here.

If anything, my math has been the only one proven. I recall mathing Kains strength, people thought it was outrageous and so I went to several people who were unbias to the subject who proved not only was I on the right lines, but I was making Kain weaker than he actually was. So if anything, the est of the forums reasoning was in more error.

Show me his "struggle", I dont see his body shaking with effort, grunts or strains like I can see in most of the characters you support. If anything, both I and others have noticed that Raz did it as if it was just another block thats hes done throughout the games.

Charge across the bridge, where? and thats not reactions, and what hypocrite statement is that? You trying to claim that Kains in-sequence animation is a mechanic? Also, it is ambigious of how he did it, we only know he did.

Why does he "have" to run out? So your actually argueing every character in games vs, will eventually lose their great powers after a number of uses? thats not a no limit fallacy to claim they do not. What charge time? theres no canon charge time, if this is a gameplay matchup then Kain can reform from bats from any wound...and ive disproven your belief that teleports have a limited distance with math.

Yes you are in some sense, your claiming that something Kain does even easier, and without using any known source of energy outside of his own genetic powers hes gained like TK than Kratos, will for some unkown reason suddenly not work? Thats daft. Link always had a fatigue limit whether the mechanics were there or not, wheras Kain has never in the canon become fatigued after teleporting.

During? how can it be during? we hear a growl...thats it, we dont hear any ear spliting explosion to drown it out. UNless your saying the energy sort of consolidated during the second or so the growl played and then exploded, this is like what you said before, "slitting your writs with Occams Razor", I admit that was a good line.

Also what do you mean "he was seen not to attack", he wasnt really seen at all, the fact Midna moved her spear forwards proves nothing, especially when we know she ends up defeated and Ganons the winner, gains a horse and his orignal form.

Originally posted by Burning thought
If anything, my math has been the only one proven. I recall mathing Kains strength, people thought it was outrageous and so I went to several people who were unbias to the subject who proved not only was I on the right lines, but I was making Kain weaker than he actually was. So if anything, the est of the forums reasoning was in more error.

After that, though, several discrepancies were discovered in that math, among them some conversion problems and underestimating the size of Raziel's claws. CC in particular exposed several of these and disproved it with math you don't seem willing to argue. Maybe you could re-check the math when it's called into question, instead of just repeating it?



It's the part where, after Raziel tips the block slightly, he has to change positions to push it over. Were it really effortless, he could have simply tipped it in one motion. Instead, he had to switch to a better position to make it easier. Mostly that, and there's really no indication it was effortless, either. Absence of evidence not being evidence of absence, after all. In any case, Ghirahim still has the better feat with the wall than anything Kain has.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJBMUyekvhk#t=44s

It's right after he blows through the wall, and much faster than anything Kain has done. Hence Ghirahim is faster than Kain.



What? Lose their powers? No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. All I'm saying is that there's a limit somewhere. Magic runs out, people get tired, ammunition gets spent, this is a basic fact of anything not-Omnipotent, and claiming that any of it is infinite is, again, a fallacy. The charge time where Kain has to fill a meter, obviously; you want a gameplay ability you should play by its rules, or at least prove it can do what you say with actual evidence. And Kain's bat form would be fine if it wasn't contradicted in cutscene when Kain dies via heart removal. When did you prove that again? As I recall you simply told me to go look up "distance" and claimed that was proof enough. It wasn't. Of course, you're also claiming that teleports don't cover distance without support. Then I've proven that teleports do have range limits by showing actual examples of teleports with range limits. Blink, Dimension Door, Nightcrawler, ringing a bell?



And that known energy source is? It's the blood Kain has to collect by feeding the reaver, of course! I'm not saying it would suddenly not work, either, I'm simply pointing out that it's a very limited ability in-game, and you have nothing that says otherwise. Still, Link's never really become fatigued in canon before Skyward Sword; that is, in fact, the same exact thing you're arguing here. I'm just asking you to show Kain using it without its canon limitation, but you can't because that limit is inextricably bound to the ability.



As you pointed out before, there is a flash of lightseen both inside and outside the castle a moment before it explodes. Hey, perfect opening for a bit like that, though it still indicates Ganon wasn't doing much because he was growling instead anything else. Midna thrusting with spear proves she destroyed the castle, I mean there was even a small delay between the hit and the destruction on that barrier, too. Heck, we know from the barrier that using that attack exhausts Midna to the point of unconsciousness so Ganondorf didn't actually have to do anything in order to win that fight. Midna knocked herself out attacking him. It fits pretty well.

Originally posted by The Scenario
After that, though, several discrepancies were discovered in that math, among them some conversion problems and underestimating the size of Raziel's claws. CC in particular exposed several of these and disproved it with math you don't seem willing to argue. Maybe you could re-check the math when it's called into question, instead of just repeating it?



It's the part where, after Raziel tips the block slightly, he has to change positions to push it over. Were it really effortless, he could have simply tipped it in one motion. Instead, he had to switch to a better position to make it easier. Mostly that, and there's really no indication it was effortless, either. Absence of evidence not being evidence of absence, after all. In any case, Ghirahim still has the better feat with the wall than anything Kain has.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJBMUyekvhk#t=44s

It's right after he blows through the wall, and much faster than anything Kain has done. Hence Ghirahim is faster than Kain.



What? Lose their powers? No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. All I'm saying is that there's a limit somewhere. Magic runs out, people get tired, ammunition gets spent, this is a basic fact of anything not-Omnipotent, and claiming that any of it is infinite is, again, a fallacy. The charge time where Kain has to fill a meter, obviously; you want a gameplay ability you should play by its rules, or at least prove it can do what you say with actual evidence. And Kain's bat form would be fine if it wasn't contradicted in cutscene when Kain dies via heart removal. When did you prove that again? As I recall you simply told me to go look up "distance" and claimed that was proof enough. It wasn't. Of course, you're also claiming that teleports don't cover distance without support. Then I've proven that teleports do have range limits by showing actual examples of teleports with range limits. Blink, Dimension Door, Nightcrawler, ringing a bell?



And that known energy source is? It's the blood Kain has to collect by feeding the reaver, of course! I'm not saying it would suddenly not work, either, I'm simply pointing out that it's a very limited ability in-game, and you have nothing that says otherwise. Still, Link's never really become fatigued in canon before Skyward Sword; that is, in fact, the same exact thing you're arguing here. I'm just asking you to show Kain using it without its canon limitation, but you can't because that limit is inextricably bound to the ability.



As you pointed out before, there is a flash of lightseen both inside and outside the castle a moment before it explodes. Hey, perfect opening for a bit like that, though it still indicates Ganon wasn't doing much because he was growling instead anything else. Midna thrusting with spear proves she destroyed the castle, I mean there was even a small delay between the hit and the destruction on that barrier, too. Heck, we know from the barrier that using that attack exhausts Midna to the point of unconsciousness so Ganondorf didn't actually have to do anything in order to win that fight. Midna knocked herself out attacking him. It fits pretty well.

No discrepancies were discovered though, their claimed as discrepancies and as usual, people hop on the bandwagon, CC fell short on his argument on the math and as for the claws, he added at best a few mm's because he calculated it as a cone, nothing pierces Kain skin so a whole cone did not touch him, only the very tip.

Thats not a struggle of strength then, thats a problem concerning his weight, Raziel himself only weighing less than a human. And no, as I said stone only has a very low pascal rating, and you have nothing suggesting G can move the wall physically. Looks like a dash, about equel in speed to Kains dash he does to moebius/raziel.

And theres nothing to "spend" concerning Kains powers, no more than there is for someone to run out of the ability to control minds or disrupt souls, or manipulate strength. You brought up examples of teleports that have a limit, thats actually mentioned as part of the plot in the games/stories their in, Nightcrawler has to be able to percieve or know where hes going for example. Also I like how you dodged Girhahims lack of proof he can teleport often or use pwoers more often by implying "hes got more than enough to beat Kain" when the same can be said for Kain, he does not have to do it unlimited amount of times.

There is no energy source, apart from the reavers own magic, nobody other than you would sit there and apprently argue a magic weapon losing its powers suddenly, yet you wont use the same logic for your own characters, ive never seen you mension this for the mastersword or Samus' guns. The limit is bound only to the gameplay mechanics, the opposite is true where Kain can only strike people more than once and do combos in gameplay mechanics because in canon he would chop Sarafan in confetti.

Whether you "belive" it fits well or not, I belive it fits better that Ganon used the power hes shown before, similiar colour and lightning to bust his own castle which hes apprently done before (it always seems to get destroyed when hes defeated or at a whim) and then theres the fact he wins. We know the spear jab did nothing though, thats a fact since we actually hear its effect, a low growl, no explosion.

^Technically unless Kain's flesh is not fleshy but stays completely rigid, ie metal, than his flesh would have been pushed in, making a cone contact... just sayin'.


So what's his teleport's range limit?

Well it didnt get pushed in or bruised at all, skin has a certain elastic quality to it, Kains is at the level where theres no mark or stretch from Raziels force. Thats a pretty major feat tbh as well but we seem to only argue base pressure resistance.

Also ime going through that with Scenario, ime not going to argue the same point with two different people, I never do that unless someone has a really interesting case.

Also what on earth are you doing in this thread? get to the other threads you need to reply in at once you naughty lad or papa BT will tan your hide!

Theeerrreeess absolutely no way to tell without good seventh gen graphics, a close-up on Kain's face with the scene being slowed down to see the effects. And his skin must be elastic or else he couldnt move.

Just saying, if Kain can't 'port to.... the Andromeda Galaxy, then it has a limit of what its been shown to do.



D; b-but that requires way more reading than this...

Its elastic, just vastly stronger than regular skin, which makes sense because it would have to scale with his actual durability, if Kains skin stretched as much as a humans yet had this durability you would probably get something that looked like Asura's attack on the fat god entity in the trailers weve been seeing where he stretches all the way through without breaking the ksin. Also, I was refering to the SR 2 intro, theres no bruise or indentation on Kains skin during the attacks or after, Kain seems to absorb most of this. I mean, if it had dented Kain, there should also be a bruise because even if you cant pierce the skin, causing pressure on the blood would make a bruise but theres none on Kain.

Well yes that is a limit, a limit of Kains knowledge and perception, I never said there was no limit at all. But its not limited just because you can only teleport X distance, or Kain chooses to teleport X distance. It makes logical sense that someone cannot teleport somewhere that they have never been, heard of or known about. But in a vs, I would say Kains abiltiy to teleport has more than enough range on a logical basis. Does not really matter anyway because he can teleport more than once so even if he could only teleport 1 meter per port, he could do it 100-1000 times if he wanted to cover said area. Its not like theres anyone who can halt teleportation.

Actually it would only cause a dent just like touching a finger to your cheek. Skin curves in, makes a larger contact area.

So with wiki and a telescope he can teleport to Pluto? And cant he only port like 5 times in a row?

Well if you were touching gently, if Kains skin curved/dented exactly the same as a humans but has only his durability and no other scaling factor he would look like the fat guy out of Asura, with a dent in him, as if he had just had liposuction and lost a ton of fat. Either that or the skin of his body would look like a wave was crossing it and hed turn to jelly.

I dont know, I think you have to actually be able to visualise where your going, or have to have actually been there in some way before. Not sure Kain has access to wiki and a strong enough telescope so thats kinda moot but he can see a fair enough distance for teleportation to be more than useful enough in a vs.

Per cast of dimentional teleport ,5 times in a row per spell is pretty good though....whats wrong with 5 teleports?

Not if he has bones and muscle. The only way his skin would not dent is if it was far tougher than the attack aka like stabbing metal. But we have no proof that it made no dent at all.

We got plenty of pics of the Moon to visualize an image, 'port there? A 10m port is nearly as equal, though why are we to believe that his DF port has a range further than been shown? IIRC it works different to his standard 'port.

Though you meant he would be doing a thousand snap 'ports in a row without re-casting.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No discrepancies were discovered though, their claimed as discrepancies and as usual, people hop on the bandwagon, CC fell short on his argument on the math and as for the claws, he added at best a few mm's because he calculated it as a cone, nothing pierces Kain skin so a whole cone did not touch him, only the very tip.

That's your claim. I saw several actual discrepancies that you didn't address, and so until you actually get around to supporting yourself with evidence all you did was say CC was wrong without anything backing you. Simple fact is he used evidence to prove his point, you didn't counter with evidence of your own. You should at least re-check your math to prove you are correct, as currently it has quite a few problems with it.



Except for Ghirahim moving the wall physically. The only alternative, magic, is sorely lacking Ghirahim's obvious and signature diamond patterns, and we see Ghirahim standing right where the wall had been before he jumps in. Ghirahim's dash covered much more distance than Kain's, and covered Kain's distance faster. Point being Ghirahim has much higher mobility in addition to a faster teleport.



Except the blood that the reaver is fed, and it is quite possible to "run out" of mind control and soul powers if used too often. It's usually not a problem for most characters because they don't hit their limit or can rest between uses, but Kain is a special case due to his limit being 5 before he has to recharge the reaver. Nightcrawler has to know where he's going and that location has to be within 2 miles, for example. With Kain, he's only shown a meter or so and that's his shown maximum. I didn't think I dodged the Ghirahim point, as he really does have more than enough showings and does in fact teleport all day every day. He teleports in cutscene roughly 16 times, and that's not even counting all the times he teleports while fighting you. Kain's problem isn't limited teleports, though. His problem is needing to feed the reaver before he can even do it.



Don't strawman, I never said the reaver would lose its powers suddenly. It would have to build them p first. You are aware that neither the Master Sword nor most of Samus' guns have that kind of thing? Actually, scratch that, I have done this for both of them. Link needs full health to fire sword beams in most games, and I have stood by that. He needs time to charge a skyward strike. Samus needs phazon to use the hyper beam and I've never claimed otherwise. She needs a second for a charged shot and ammo for missiles and certain beams. Heck, she needs to run to build up power for the Speed Booster. Mario needs star power for special moves. Dante needs to charge his Royal Release, and needs devil energy to use Devil Trigger. Captain Titus needs to build his rage for the purity seal to work. I have never claimed that any of them could use these powers infinitely, and I would, in fact, object to the suggestion that they could. Don't claim I haven't used that logic for my own favored characters, because I have, and I'm applying it to Kain. No full health, no sword beam; no phazon, no hyper beam; no star power, no special move, no royal guard, no royal release; no fury, no purity seal; no blood, no dimension reaver.




And I say it fits Midna, because she's used that power before, and similar color and light, and busted a castle sized barrier. And then there's the fact that using the Fused Shadows exhausts her the point of unconsciousness. Then spear even showed a delayed effect before, on the barrier.

Originally posted by The Scenario
That's your claim. I saw several actual discrepancies that you didn't address, and so until you actually get around to supporting yourself with evidence all you did was say CC was wrong without anything backing you. Simple fact is he used evidence to prove his point, you didn't counter with evidence of your own. You should at least re-check your math to prove you are correct, as currently it has quite a few problems with it.



Except for Ghirahim moving the wall physically. The only alternative, magic, is sorely lacking Ghirahim's obvious and signature diamond patterns, and we see Ghirahim standing right where the wall had been before he jumps in. Ghirahim's dash covered much more distance than Kain's, and covered Kain's distance faster. Point being Ghirahim has much higher mobility in addition to a faster teleport.



Except the blood that the reaver is fed, and it is quite possible to "run out" of mind control and soul powers if used too often. It's usually not a problem for most characters because they don't hit their limit or can rest between uses, but Kain is a special case due to his limit being 5 before he has to recharge the reaver. Nightcrawler has to know where he's going and that location has to be within 2 miles, for example. With Kain, he's only shown a meter or so and that's his shown maximum. I didn't think I dodged the Ghirahim point, as he really does have more than enough showings and does in fact teleport all day every day. He teleports in cutscene roughly 16 times, and that's not even counting all the times he teleports while fighting you. Kain's problem isn't limited teleports, though. His problem is needing to feed the reaver before he can even do it.



Don't strawman, I never said the reaver would lose its powers suddenly. It would have to build them p first. You are aware that neither the Master Sword nor most of Samus' guns have that kind of thing? Actually, scratch that, I have done this for both of them. Link needs full health to fire sword beams in most games, and I have stood by that. He needs time to charge a skyward strike. Samus needs phazon to use the hyper beam and I've never claimed otherwise. She needs a second for a charged shot and ammo for missiles and certain beams. Heck, she needs to run to build up power for the Speed Booster. Mario needs star power for special moves. Dante needs to charge his Royal Release, and needs devil energy to use Devil Trigger. Captain Titus needs to build his rage for the purity seal to work. I have never claimed that any of them could use these powers infinitely, and I would, in fact, object to the suggestion that they could. Don't claim I haven't used that logic for my own favored characters, because I have, and I'm applying it to Kain. No full health, no sword beam; no phazon, no hyper beam; no star power, no special move, no royal guard, no royal release; no fury, no purity seal; no blood, no dimension reaver.




And I say it fits Midna, because she's used that power before, and similar color and light, and busted a castle sized barrier. And then there's the fact that using the Fused Shadows exhausts her the point of unconsciousness. Then spear even showed a delayed effect before, on the barrier.

Show me those discrepencies, it seems youve not even read his post, youve jumped on the bandwagon. Go and argue his point you think I didnt counter if you belive in him so much. There is no problems, re-check what math? if apprently quoteing two completyl different sources of math, then claiming their different is creating a discrepency then anyone can do that, maybe ill quote random piecies of math from the forum and say just because their diffrent to others their all wrong? lulzy.

Not seen, we dont see anything, if theres diamond patterns or G hitting the wall behind the wreckage then we dont see it either way. Erm no, G covered about half the bridges length, which was about 10-15 meters max as a whole, before the other person countered him and he did all this in 2 seconds, Kain does about 3/4 meters in .5 seconds, so half the bridge in 2 seconds is about 3.7m/s vs Kains 9m/s. And dimentional port is quicker than anything G has done and on top of that is a combat port, G never uses his port in combat from what I have seen.

The Reaver drinks blood but theres no proof it strengthens the blade or goes anyway. It beens drinking blood long before the emblems were on it, its a specific enchant on the blade, its a vampiric sword. There is no limit though because the charge does not exist, your making things up from mechanics, double standards are here for you now. The feeding reaver thing seems to be your fallacy ad nauseum, reposting the whole gameplay mechanic every time you mension this. Also Kain does teleport throughout his games consistently, G teleports a few times in a scene, Kain teleports over and over in Soul reaver, he teleports a few times in defiance, 5 times per Dimentional port (its more than 5, depending on how many enemies are on screen iirc).

It seems to me your playing about with the no limit fallacy, claiming theres "more than enough" for a character you like but apprently Kains going to run out of all his powers....randomly in a KMC vs? wut....

Your implying it does, because thats the power of the reaver/emblem, why would it suddeny lose the power to do what its supposed to be able to do? just because Kain didnt hit someone recently? lol....your using mechanics. Dante does need devil energy because its mentioned by Jester in the actual games, I am assuming most if not all of these cases your briniging up is a lot more than just an in-game mechanic, I dont belive Dante has to collect purple devil stars to use his DT or regenerate it either...also what about the plasma gun? you seemed to be claimingshe can use it as often as she likes, we never argued ammo for that? what about her suit? it must run on something....or does it activiate on an unlimited power source?

The spear actually struck the barrier, and the delayed effect wwas shown and heard, not this time, infact theres no proof she struck anything.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Not if he has bones and muscle. The only way his skin would not dent is if it was far tougher than the attack aka like stabbing metal. But we have no proof that it made no dent at all.

We got plenty of pics of the Moon to visualize an image, 'port there? A 10m port is nearly as equal, though why are we to believe that his DF port has a range further than been shown? IIRC it works different to his standard 'port.

Though you meant he would be doing a thousand snap 'ports in a row without re-casting.

I think the fact we dont see a hole, bruise or dent proves he was not dented?

Because ports dont have range unless specified, logically they dont, only a universe giving a reason why a magical teleport that does not weaken the user would have a limit on range. Since technically, Teleport cuts out the "distance" and in the dimentional teleports case, Kain uses a dimentional door to hop through and out the other side somewhere else, so hes not really covering distance as molecules either as some may assume.

I never said in one cast, i was implying that he could do as many as he liked, if he has to recast what does it matter? it takes less than half a second, or barely under a second for him to cast the other teleport.

Impossible to see without FF-level graphics, a close up and slower than it was. Really think something like this is visual in a scene like that?

Isnt that a no-limits fallacy?

Eh, matters for people faster than him, not so much here. Then theres the energy thing Scene's on... wait, swear 'meters' were sorted out before. (Off-topic?)

What do you mean "FF level", its an FMV not the games graphics so if the devs wanted to do something they typically could if it was what they wanted kinda like how the stone he smashes Raziel on with Tk breaks far more realistically than PS1/2 graphics in game would allow, we dont need to see it closer or slower, Kains body has not changed or moved when we see Raziel hit. This is what a strike from a human can do;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU7HDgv8Zzg#t=1m1s


Kains body does not visiblty move at all at any level, wheras even without the slowdown you can see the guys chest move. Kain tanks Raziels sharp pressure like a punch and this is thousands times the pressure a human can create with a punch, the fact Kain is not moving like a jelly proves hes got some crazy absorbtion.

A no limits fallacy is using a claim from somewhere like for example Kains repel shield being invincible and saying it is in all fights. I already outlinned a few more logica limits like perception of an area. Distance does not come up concerning teleport, only that they can cover distance without needing to travel it physically.

Not really, he only needs to teleport once to be anywhere within a fair distance of them, where they cant predict, within fractions of a second he could be tens of meters even using the dimentional port and assuming its only got a few meters range. Theres no one who could catch up to this, especially if Kain chooses the sky as his "escape" route.

Yeah Ive seen it, the graphics arent good enough to show whats needed. And even so youre missing some points; due to the angle/distance from the face/speed, even if it was live action you still wouldnt be able to see him make a dent.

>____________> Urrrrrmmmm....... 'we dont need it closer or slower' then showing me a 'close up' vid shot in 'slow-motion'.............?


But do we know that?

Yeah any decent speedster can cover that far faster.

You could argue that for most games, the graphics arent good enoguh so the feat obviously isnt there! Also why do you keep bringing up face? Ime talking about the SR2 intro, we see Kain quite clearly getting pounded up against the wall, same with the claws. Kains body does not move at all, his skin is fine, hell his clothing does not budge, Kains as solid as a rock which also covers why he only travels the short distance he does, unless you argued kains power to move his feet without actually moving as shown at the end of Defiance on moebius gives him some sort of friction anchor.

It proves huge waves of force cover a persons body when hit at "human" level, if Kains skin has no more elasticity than human leve, then his whole body should have been spinning like a top.

Do we know what? We know a teleport does not cover distance, Kains not even in this dimention while he teleports using the dimention reaver and teleport transports you from one area to another without moving.

Cover what? If they somehow knew exactly where Kain was going to go, in what direction, with nothing but the .2/.3 or so seconds of Kain actually being there between teleports to catch him? nobody argued on games vs can do that atm. Nor can they fly at any decent speed either so Kain could just go up instead of anywhere else.

Rest of the top part didnt make sense.. anyway, face as thats where the Raz struck and where the dents in the skin would be. Remember? Its what were talking about.

Chalked up to graphics limitation. They can barely do that in todays games.

Yeah, but has demonstrated anything further than a meter to suggest otherwise?

50m away, .2s to use the move.. anyone with 250m/s speed with related RT could get to him in this time.

Raziel does not hit Kain in the face in the Sr2 scene though, and do what exactly in todays games? show a dent? or show clothing falling off, or Kains body shaking? ofc graphics can do those things, maybe not the reverberation part but I have seen people claim Dantes regen as nigh instant just because a wound on his body, or on his clothing was not rendered which is worse imo.

If they were like the flash or something and could go from zero to 250m/s then yes maybe, again they would have to know where he is and find out in that .2 seconds, if he can be anywhere from 50m away in a 360 degree angle or in the sky, this opens up a ton of time for Kain. The more time he has, the more time he can make ridiculous distance.

..wherever he hits him, we're looking for the small dents his claws make the instant they strike, and no game is that detailed in a scene like that. Even irl you couldnt tell from the angle and distance we are from it. Its like getting someone to quickly poke someone with a pen 3m away from you. You wouldnt see the dents.

Has he demonstrated anything to suggest otherwise? :I

I could name you a couple dozen characters far below Flash that can react and cover that distance in that time.

Shouldnt be small if hes got human skin/elasticity. He should look like a glove.

Has what demoed otherwise?

I guess those people have zero to max speed powers and precog to know where hes going to be before he does as well?

You can't see the dent made from Bob jabbing Ted with a pen if youre standing 10ft behind Bob, just like we cant see this. Note; Im not talking about the impact ripple, talking about the dent.

Best TPing distance.

No 0-max powers, just what fast gais do. Acceleration scales with speed. In a fight where the enemy is TPing around youre going to be on the look out. In a fight where you have superhuman speed youre going to be searching your radius much faster than normal. See>React>Move, can all be done before he can port again.

Guesses and nonsense claims tbh. None of this is proven, your just pretty much saying "yeh! they will find im! thats fer sure kekeke!" or at least, may as well be. Theres no "faster than normal" because Kain is faster than normal also, only hes only got to do a .3 second cast, they have to run to him and hope to get to him before he moves to an unkown area, then the timer starts agian. Their fighting against ever increasing time.

Not that these people (Dante) could do anything once they got there. Especially if its in the air and Dantes not had a canon flight ability for a long time, infact his last one was in DMC 1?