Kratos ,Dante ,War(Ds) Alex Mercer vs Kain & Raziel

Burning thought

Not a single God in the games unless you can show me "Chains of Olmypus" cinematics move at lightning speed or attack at said speed, your using telegraphed gameplay to claim Kratos reacted to the speed which you seem to be hyping, the Leviathan? show me... Also wtf? Hermes was wounded when he actually fights Kratos in which their fighting in a small room. Kain can, if he even chooses to attack Kratos in melee (he probably wont) can appear or re-appear through teleport in fractions of a second, Kratos wont even know whats going on.

Your making shit up, not a single God that Kratos fought used teleportation to avoid Kratos' reach, infact iirc the only person who ever used teleport at all was Ares, who teleported short distances and did not attempt to get any distance between him and Kratos. Kratos has never defeated someone who not only created great distance between them, mind controled his allies and Tked him about like a rag doll.

Again, your talking about characters you know nothing about and groups of people have put him in that tier, if anything its Kratos who your overvalueing, difference is I know since unlike you I have played the games of both characters. also I like how your desperatly trying to devalue a feat calculated by several people, pulling out the wrong numbers we used and then coming to me, someone who did not calculate it.

Kratos is a slow, lumbering character whos only feats of haste at all are from using objects in the environment to swing from place to place, he has no resistance against half of Kains attacks and you bring up laughable comparisons of close combat reaction speed.

Kratos is on Kains side anyway....unless Kain chooses Dante as his champion.

And what the hell? rip his head off? first hes not got the strength unless you think his little push of Chronos' hand equels pressure at a stars core, a vast celestial body and the chances of him achieving that is just as likely as his slow ass getting his hands on Kain at all. Also why would that be a KO? Kain can live as nothing but mist particles. yet another move that would leave Kratos' strength useless, your blind bias and ignorance of the source materials are boreing.

CosmicComet

Kain is slow. Is not above the reaction time of Sarafan league members--who are little more than human knights. Raziel was certainly not above their perception speeds when he fought them in SR2, including his Sarafan self.

And figures you wouldn't know about half the shit I mentioned, or misread--I wasn't even talking about Kratos' personal lightning blocking feats (one in GOW2, and another near the end of GOW3). I was talking about the Gods themselves. Show You? The Leviathan? Maybe later. You won't have an argument against it and will just plug your ears and go lalalala, but I'll do so anyway.

Hermes was injured. Guess what? That's relative. His bones weren't broken. He was simply bleeding from the leg. That alone is not enough for even YOU to suddenly perform at less than 1% of your jogging speeds, and certainly not for a god such as Hermes--who is durable enough to tank the friction of his speeds. He had the casual running feat that I mentioned. But against Kratos, he was not being casual. It's equal at best due to the injury, and at worst, its still a significant percentage of that speed.

Kratos tanks volcanic explosions sending him hurtling into statues miles away, without a scratch--and that's not even the best he's got there. On the other hand, Kain got hurt by Raziel at least twice, and got his heart ripped out by a weakened Raziel in Defiance whilst the latter was being absorbed unwittingly by the reaver during the end of their fight there. And guess what, Raziel is a character that has never once held up 100 tons clean over his head--and he was still sufficiently strong enough to make Kain bleed profusely. His feats of strength are below that of someone like Spiderman.

EDIT: LOLOL!!! STARS CORE SHIT AGAIN!!! Kain WAS SCARED when Raziel's blade chopped through Williams coffin. Lmao.

Burning thought

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Kain is slow. Is not above the reaction time of Sarafan league members--who are little more than human knights. Raziel was certainly not above their perception speeds when he fought them in SR2, including his Sarafan self.

And figures you wouldn't know about half the shit I mentioned, or misread--I wasn't even talking about Kratos' personal lightning blocking feats (one in GOW2, and another near the end of GOW3). I was talking about the Gods themselves. Show You? The Leviathan? Maybe later. You won't have an argument against it and will just plug your ears and go lalalala, but I'll do so anyway.

Hermes was injured. Guess what? That's relative. His bones weren't broken. He was simply bleeding from the leg. That alone is not enough for even YOU to suddenly perform at less than 1% of your jogging speeds, and certainly not for a god such as Hermes--who is durable enough to tank the friction of his speeds. He had the casual running feat that I mentioned. But against Kratos, he was not being casual. It's equal at best due to the injury, and at worst, its still a significant percentage of that speed.

Kratos tanks volcanic explosions sending him hurtling into statues miles away, without a scratch--and that's not even the best he's got there. On the other hand, Kain got hurt by Raziel at least twice, and got his heart ripped out by a weakened Raziel in Defiance whilst the latter was being absorbed unwittingly by the reaver during the end of their fight there. And guess what, Raziel is a character that has never once held up 100 tons clean over his head--and he was still sufficiently strong enough to make Kain bleed profusely. His feats of strength are below that of someone like Spiderman.

EDIT: LOLOL!!! STARS CORE SHIT AGAIN!!! Kain WAS SCARED when Raziel's blade chopped through Williams coffin. Lmao.

What? you dont have a clue what your talking about, Kain never, certainly not in his current form canonically fought a Sarafan at peak. Your not making sense.

Its because your making it up or overhyping it, Kratos has never fought at such great speed.

Your reaching, Kratos could only even catch up to hermes once he was limping about, fairly slowly may I add in a small room. You dont have anything to claim Kratos did anything on par, reactionwise or on foot to beat Hermes so plucking out some speed feat Hermes did at his peak is irrelevent.

Show me this happening and then show me the math youve done which shows how much more powerful that is than the core of our planets pressure. Yeh, again, very little knowledge also your listing is pointless, I could say Kratos was impaled like a mere mortal if I had your ignorance by Zeus with the Blade of Olmypus and try and claim it as a low showing but I wont because unlike you I am not ignorant of hte source material. The only time Raziel has injured Kain is when he uses the wraith blade to weaken him beforehand, canon shows that kain at peak can easily tank Raziels peak without so much as his skins elasticity being tested or a bruise forming. Oh and I am talking about an actual cutscene FMV, not your implications and ilogical deductions from gameplay and quick time events.

LOLOL Kratos Titan blocking shit AGAIN!! /sarcasm also what are you talking about? again, you dont know the game sources. Your knowledge is based on someone whos brieftly looked at a couple of screenshots or a couple of minutes of youtube.

Kuja9001

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain has never dealt with all those things in one person, one teleport and Kain could be out of Kratos' reach and Kratos is indeed damn slow.

Infact what you just said can be applied the opposite way round, Kratos has no useful powers Kain has not dealt with before and is far faster. Kratos on the other hand, is peak human in speed and has no teleportation. less durable? prove it, weaker strengthwise? yes, but he doesnt need it to slice through Kratos like confetti.

Although I thought your post there was a joke, hence why I countered it in such a way.

And Kratos, Dante, mercer and War have shown greater mind resistance than said Nosgoth aristocracy when? They have shown resistance against mind controlling magic when? I will answer....never! smile

Also wut? Cosmic is the better troll by far so far out of the two of you so you fail!

Funny how two people are bringing up daft claims in argument against someone who has actually played all the games concerning the characters here. (save Chains of Olmypus but that dunt count!)

Kratos has mind resistance, he resisted Zeus infecting him with fear.

Burning thought

Then he has resistance against fear, Kain doesnt use that at all. Hes never had anyone attempt to actual mind rape him, hes been manipulated mentally many times, his whole life is the result of that manipulation, only Kains not just going to promise power or corrupt him (although he could inspire hate him) hes just going to take over the reigns.

CosmicComet

Sorry it took so damn long. Big multi-post coming through.

?
What? Did that really not make sense to you?

Raziel, fought Sarafan versions of his brothers, and himself. He was NOT fast enough to blitz them by any stretch of the imagination.
He beat them easy enough, but he was not outside of any of their ability to perceive. At all. These were merely fit human characters, in full plate armor,
and they were not too slow to be a non-threat to him or for him to be invisible to them. And 'peak' Kain's reaction time is on the same tier as Raziel's, undeniable.

It's not as if Kain got faster or more agile by any demonstrated amount as he matured as a vampire. More powerful and experienced, sure.
Young vampire Kain had an honest duel with King William when both wielded a Reaver, and it was not a mismatch. Kain openly said he
had to feed on William's blood to refill the blood he lost during that fight--that would imply an actual challenge was presented, yes? Would you care to demonstrate WHERE older Kain suddenly has speed/reflex feats that suddenly puts him orders of magnitude above younger him, raziel, and human reaction time in general?

Even top vampires like Janos or Vorodor were never so fast as to be beyond human perception, and both were executed by humans. It's funny, Janos even tried to take a swipe at Sarafan Raziel's face while they were executing him, and he dodged that just as one would dodge the flailing of any other human--and your arms move much faster than your legs, so even if he was running away, he would not have been beyond human perception. Humans like the Sarafan were never a non-threat to vampires. Hell, Sarafan Raziel was completely confident in having a solo fight with his future wraith self, whom he figured to be just another vampire. That alone says a lot, on top of actual fights we've seen. Kain is peak human + in speed. Around Batman level. Nothing more, Nothing less. Much more on all of this to come.

Firstly, let us get something out of the way. My integrity/trustworthiness, is not the one in question. You are a pariah on this forum. You are among the least credible posters around here. You are a lone wolf, and no one buys the bullshit you're spitting for a moment. You do realize this, yes? Nor, am I the one that can be accused of 'overhyping' by bringing in non-sensical calcs that don't represent the actual visuals presented within the game itself. You were laughed at in CBR as well when you brought up this 'star core' shit as well; http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=390481&page=3 (I'd recommend reading the whole thread readers, its full of gems such as BT wondering matter of factly how substantial a NUKE would be to Kain.) I'm the one actually bringing feats. You have yet to demonstrate that Kain is some speedster, when he and his kin can't even demonstrate the ability to blitz human knights. I'm not the one that hypes feats beyond the actual visual demonstrations of the universe I'm talking about, for God of War (or any verse). I use terms that would actually apply to the universe in my appraisal of feats (terms like mountain level, city level, weight of the earth's crust etc) --whereas you, use terms, which would put Kain on mild speaking terms with someone like SUPERMAN--one immediately obvious character that can withstand the 'pressure of the core of the sun'. I only make this obvious so you can realize how dumb this is, and wisen the f*ck up, fool. Actually, no--You are simply being intellectually dishonest. You don't actually believe, ignoring temperature for a bit, that Kain can be in the center of the sun and not be damaged. (For those of you looking on and aren't familiar with KMC's game versus section, yes, this is absolutely the type of idiocy/fan wank we have to endure on the regular from this idiot.)

Kratos has actual physical speeds feat, outside of fighting people who have speed feats.

As an aside: You also can't be fast if your muscles are weak. Sprinters are buffer and stronger than normal people. And power lifters, work out their fast twitch muscles so greatly that they can even be competitive with pure sprinters for short distances--even though they are even more bulky. Speed cannot come without sufficient strength for your weight. Which is why large animals are so lumbering compared to tiny ones; because of the inherent square-cube law, large animals are much weaker for their size than small ones, and they are much slower because of this lower relative strength.

I only mentioned this, because even we didn't even HAVE feats, it would make more logical, scientific sense for Kratos to be far faster, seeing as his strength to weight ratio is ridiculously greater. But I'm sure this is just meaningless extrapolation, whereas the Star's Core PSI calc is air-tight science. Am I right?

Like I said though, much more on this soon. I'll bring some feats. (The Hermes feat in question is in the comics though, and I'm having trouble finding the scans again, so I might just drop it for now.)

Firstly, let's take the time to use this star's core pressure shit against you, because that's far more pressing an issue here than anything else..

Do you know what you are guilty of? You are guilty of backing a wacky, canon faulty calc to further your agenda, and then declare that your character has a superior stat because others weren't idiotic enough to try to apply the same kind of math for another character. You DO realize that if we attempted this sort of math in the God of War universe, the numbers would be astronomically greater, right? Well let's end this shit right here:

My finger tip is about 1 centimeter wide. Let's just assume my finger tip and everything else that we speak of area wise, is a perfect circle(just to make things easier on us). So my finger's area would be .785 cm^2. As per your calcs, you've listed Raziel's two claw tips as being 2 mm^2 (1 mm^2 per claw). So my finger tip's area is a little over 78 times bigger than what you had for a single claw point. Now, Kratos' fingers are much bigger than mine being 8'6" (as stated in a bonus video in Gow3), roughly ~47% wider. Which would yield a finger tip area of 1.7 cm^2. Which is 170 times greater than the area of Raziel's claw tip.You do know what this means, correct? It means the force that Kratos produces only has to be 170 times greater (well more than that since he has more fingers than raz has claws) than what Raziel produced in that obelisk tipping feat in order to have the same PSI--since its obviously just a matter of division (force over area).

You know what the problem is? Kratos isn't simply 170 times stronger than Raziel. He's literally, BILLIONS of times stronger, and that's still being CONSERVATIVE. So there you go, Kratos produces millions of times the pressure of the core of a sun. Everytime Kratos is on one knee, and he presses his hand to his thigh while he's getting up--its a millions x star core pressure durability feat. : ) Everytime Kratos clenches his fist, and his fingers don't go right through his palm, its a millions x star core durability feat. And guess what dudebro, you can't deny the logic behind this, without destroying your own claim. Hell, on the other hand, I'm fine with it. You can have your star core pressure Kain and Raz. I'll gladly take my millions x star core pressure Kratos and have fun. smile

CosmicComet

Smaller people than Kratos, like Link or Dante, would have to do even less since their fingers will be thinner than his. smile

Assuming Link/Dante's fingers are as big as mine, if either replicated the feat exactly as raz did, their fingers would still produce ~1/78 of whatever P.S.I. rating Raz's claw tips were doing--and since they don't fight with their fingers, it would be a moot point anyway, as we have no reason to believe that the Master Sword, Rebellion, and the Blood Reaver, all don't have comparable blade edges, width wise. But of course, part of the reason you even got such a high pressure output in the first place was because of a nonsensical estimation for the width of Raz' claw tips--which I will get to in a minute.

It was also funny how you talked as if Dante couldn't strike with millions of bars of pressure--provided the same math you used for Raziel was applied; considering if you low balled the hell out of dante he's still at least as strong as raziel and at least a THOUSAND of times faster inarguably, and his sword is far thinner than Raziel's claws. Therefore beating him in total force, and p.s.i. You dumb piece of shit. And you aren't a dumb ass for not realizing this, the fact is, you absolutely know this is true. You are a dumb ass because you already acknowledged this before, and now you've simply decided to pretend this never happened---you are being intellectually dishonest as **** and were caught; THAT is why you are a dumb ass:

Here's the quote from the respect thread
Thank God for the 15 minute edit window sometimes. Lest I wouldn't have caught you;
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=470105&pagenumber=6#post13561176
"I think theres a hole in your calculations , it would be the same for most video game characters anyway and the LoK physics are no different to real world when concerning calculation of damage, Kratos from GoW would likely be more, possibly Dante going at mach 15 would be able to deal similiar power if not far more etc. If you want to argue game vs math in general then go to the people who started it."

Oh, and you know what more? Let's deconstruct this even further. Because what I said above was a COMPLETE underselling of everything. Not only is Kratos far more than Billions of times stronger than Raz/Kain, who have zero feats of holding up 100 tons over their heads, but the area of Raz's claw tips are A LOT larger than 1 mm^2. I recall you saying somewhere that the tips of Raziel's claws are probably smaller than the width of an iron nail...lol...no. MAYBE, if you use the extremely low poly SR in game models. 1 mm^2 is comparable to the area of the tip of a ~3.6 inch iron nail (looking at some of mine), and Raziel's claw tips are most certainly larger than that. Let's demonstrate:

http://images.buddytv.com/usrimages/usr500053214/500053214_3984d6ce-2d81-4b2a-a116-066249ae91af-the-eye-of-raw-sr2-raziel.jpg
http://bestgamewallpapers.com/files/legacy-of-kain-defiance/raziel.jpg
http://www.gamingunion.net/newsimg/soul-reaver-coming-to-european-psn-tomorrow.jpg
http://static.desktopnexus.com/thumbnails/239147-bigthumbnail.jpg
http://www.double-helix.net/images/covers/Soul_Reaver.jpg
http://www.gameswelike.com/web/pix/SoulReaver/srintro09.jpg
http://gameswalls.com/wallpapers/l/legacy-of-kain-soul-reaver-2/soul-reaver-2-1.jpg
http://gameswalls.com/wallpapers/l/legacy-of-kain-defiance/raziel-4.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/vampires/images/f/fb/Kain.jpg
^Even this photo of Kain's claws--whose are less weathered than Raz's, are still blunt.

http://fil1969.deviantart.com/art/KAIN-AND-RAZIEL-207101949
^From this Defiance extracted model pic, (there are tools to do this, I just found it on deviantart) I can see that Raziel's claws are over 6 inches long (wraith Raziel is 5'10" according to designer Daniel Cabuco on the Eidos forum) from the fact that his right 'index' claw stacked together roughly takes ~11.25 of them stack up to what he would be if he was standing completely planted/erect, but then you have to keep in mind that the right 'index' claw is farther from the camera than his head is, so ~11.25 has to be considered a bit of an overestimate. Anyway, the point is his claw is over 6 inches long; 6.5 inches I'd say.

So from this, let's compare Raziel's claws to an iron nail, and how their tips compare at equal lengths (assuming that the nail is about ~3.6 long);
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/9862/nailclaws.png
You see, even at equal lengths to the nail, the claw's tip is clearly a bit wider. And the difference becomes even more obvious when you scale it up to over 6 inches long for the big one. BTW, the small one is there just to show what I scaled up from. I cropped the claw from THIS render;
http://www.cosplayisland.co.uk/files/costumes/36/3915/sfondi%20raziel%206.jpg
A render that very generously makes his claw tips look very thin--but even with this, it becomes clear that when you scale it next to an iron nail, it certainly isn't as thin tip for tip, even at equal lengths.

You see from here in? Quite Dull. His claws are so damn large, that even with the amount of taper they have, its point still isn't that much smaller than a human finger. They are very large, and conical. Again, about the size of large T.Rex teeth (sans root). I'm going to call it here, that Raziel's claw tips are 2 millimeters wide a piece. And since I said I would use circles for simplicity, that 2 mm is the diameter, and thus the area of the circle will be ~3.14 millimeters^2. For ONE claw. For both of em together its obviously 6.28 millimeters^2. (Just for reference, to get 1 mm^2 for the area of one claw tip as a circle, the diamater would have to be 1.128 millimeters, so I am being generous in that 2 millimeters is less than twice that figure)

But seriously though....

How could you NOT think this faulty math could not backfire on you? You acquired this calc, in a verse where the main characters don't even have any single feat of lifting a 100 tons over their head, over even doing something as fictionally common as a break a large jeep sized boulder--which would be ~100 tons--physically.(with TK maybe)--and you got this on a virtue of a feat where a character tips over a mundane sized obelisk while noting a (significantly mis-attributed) claw width size. So how the ****...could you even ALLOW yourself to think, that using the same math/logic used for this relatively meek-verse (feat wise) on some other verse with visually and numerically far superior strength feats, that you ALSO wouldn't get insanely retarded calcs anyway? That's even ignoring that the math is completely infallible--and no reason to think it is, when Scenario was getting numbers far more sane--such as thousands of times over human flesh pressure resistance. And funny enough, Blood Rain along with using some of Paste figures in the respect thread, ALSO got some figures for it. And their P.S.I. readings are also puzzlingly different, and when their figure is actually compared to the P.S.I. ratings on known occurences and phenomena, it actually makes a shit ton more sense. And why is there such an astonishing difference between P.S.I. calcs between BR/Paste vs. Dadumon/Morridini? Because as I said earlier, partly because of an overly generous (too small) value for Raz' claw tips, and mostly, because the math got f*cked up, which we'll see.

CosmicComet

But before we do that, let's inject a bit or reality into the situation;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZjhxuhTmGk
The above is a video of a test where an f4 phantom jet is launched at a thick concrete wall at 500 mph, to test the durability of the wall.

http://www.iasmirt.org/iasmirt-3/SMiRT10/DC_250401
^Here's a pdf about the results of the test. From the graphs, it is possible to see that the maximum force recorded was over 180,000,000 N. Almost 100 times greater than the Newton figure from the calc that you're backing. As far as I can derive from some scale drawings, the area of the jet's nose tip is about 4.5 inches^2, which to be sure is significantly bigger than the 3.14 mm^2 per claw tip I gave you (or even the total of 12.56 mm^2) for Raziel and the bar figure comes out to over 620,000 bar, but the funny thing is when you realize that a tiny modification like fastening an iron nail to the nose, would've yielded pressure figures that would completely SMASH your original shitty numbers. You talked about the original 9 million+ bar figure so proudly, this tiny modification would've yielded real life numbers in a man made non-nuclear test of nearl 900 million bar--or 247 times earth's core pressure. All because a jet had a nail attached to it while crashing into something. smile

Oooooh. So monumental! The point is, doofus, that impulse matters. Who cares if Raziel and a jet with a nail on it can produce bar figures greater than the bar figure of the Earth's core for only small fractions of a moment? The longer, the better. The entire calc that I've responded to was a waste of time. Faulty, Discardable in comparison to the canon, and ultimately useless, not unlike most of your posts regarding topics involving Kain.

I don't even blame the dudes who did the math, it seems like it was just for fun. You've been irresponsible as hell with it though, throwing the figures around as if you actually understood a damn thing, or that it made sense. You poor, sad, dumb motherf*cker.

Now, for the videos I was talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7jvu-Q3LoQ
^5:47. Kain is forced to break down a wall that is cracked, and then gets discovered by a guard. This is the first of dozens of times that Kain and Raziel are forced to find compromised walls to gain entry. No hundreds of earth core pressure here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhDQWmV3-9o&feature=related
^seconds in. kain can't even kick through a lock that fell on a door. star core pressure my ass. (video before he had to strike at the weak part of a wall to cave it through. And then its depth was only a couple of feet anyway)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_eka-oNC2g&feature=related
^2:53. Kain kicks a wooden door, and all it does is splinter a bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udNRhswVhGI&feature=related
^5:12. Raziel admits the edge of the temple of light's entrance is too high to reach. And its maybe 20-25 feet high. His leg strength, certainly can't be too high then can it? And if his leg strength isn't so great, the rest of him certainly isn't either. Can't vertically jump 25 feet, but can produce hundreds of earth core pressure on claws....lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SopetEStB0E&feature=related
^3:50. Another light temple edifice, that Raziel admits is too high for his vertical leap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8DDI8QgpFU
^3:35. Raz collects Zephon's soul, and the Elder God tells him he can now scale CERTAIN walls, which were otherwise 'impassable'. If he was star core pressure, or even earth core pressure, at his tips, how, pray tell, why can he only scale CERTAIN walls? Shouldn't any wall be child's play for scaling? But daw...Raz can only scale softer, smoother walls. So sad. What's that? Your response is that he just needs walls to be smooth? That doesn't stop human rock climbers does it? Still no star core/earth core pressure output for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffo7uGvjQp4&feature=related
^4:25. As Raz goes to imbue his reaver with the conflict/nature guardians' souls, some boulders drop to block off one of his paths...but...can't his claws produce hundreds of times the pressure of the earth's core? how could those boulders possibly stop him? Raz just doesn't know his own strength surely...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpWP9e-iQj8&feature=related
^3:52. Raziel admits that he can't move the doors of Kain's citadel. He reasons that they are either barred from the other side, or simply rusted shut. But...how is this possible? Couldn't he have just wrecked that door with his 900 billion pascals + producing claws? It's just something like iron or ungalvansized/non-stainless steel afterall...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIJyDC9KtOA&feature=related
^:10. Raziel can't even budge the doors of Vorador's mansion door. No hundreds of earth core pressure in his claws to be seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsFYJb4atgk&feature=related
^6:02. Raziel mentions the sarafan fortress he just escaped out would be difficult to get back into. A large, mostly wooden gate he says is his only way back in, yet he needs to find a way to operate the crystal above the gate to get it to open...why can't he simply tear into it with his hundreds of earth's core pressure producing claws? The doors aren't that deep either, maybe 3 or 4 feet when we see them open, and they arestill mostly wood even on the other size.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh26jrgXHX0&feature=related
^2:46. Raziel comes across an old rusted door that has already been caved in out of its hinges. Raziel has to kick it twice before finally dislodging it. Does no damage to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca5-ne5T1sQ
^Raziel cuts into William's coffin, and does nothing more than fracture it from the top to its midsection. As these before and after screen caps show;
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6967/precutcoffin.png
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/1402/postcutcoffin.png
And no, despite what it may have looked like while he was doing it, he did not cleave the coffin clean in two, otherwise the Reaver would not still be standing upright, embedded in it, it would slip to the ground as nothing would be holding it in place if the two pieces were cleanly cleaved. Kain was threatened by this attack, and in the normal timeline KILLED by this attack--an attack which is obviously nowhere near star core pressure. Hell no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYnOARy-Fo0&feature=related
^6:26. Raziel gets the Air Reaver. Uh Oh. Things are starting to look bad for you. Why? Because at 7:24-8:11, upon nearing the exit, Raziel reaches a cracked door. And he blasts through the door with his new reaver and he says; 'This elemental reaver I discovered, had the power to obliterate barriers that were cracked or compromised. At last I had the means to open that ruined time streaming chamber I discovered so long ago in the swamps!'. AWWWWW. Isn't that cute. Poor Raziel needs a magical weapon to get through ~1 foot deep, cracked walls/doors. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thHYxhfEuzU&feature=related
^4:59. He then finally gets back to the swamp and blasts the cracked door that he couldn't pass before hand. If only he realized his hundreds of earth core psi producing claws, he wouldn't have had to go through all the trouble of finding the air reaver forge. sad

This also gels perfectly with the fact that in Defiance, Kain and Raziel have to repeatedly break through walls that were already severely cracked, with their respective reavers. Can you call this a P.I.S. level low feat? NO. Because its not contradicted anywhere prior, OR later. Within the same game that you claim Kain has this hundreds of earth core pressure per square inch durability, we have a feat meant to be impressive by the reaver...that could be accomplished by a rocket propelled grenade...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY6SckgHgyQ
^Oh dear me. The Melchiah fight...Well now. You laud Kain's cutscene where he was knocked about by a few of Raziel's blows, but came out no worse for wear apparently, but surely you recall that Kain was not the first to 'tank' Raziel's claws? smile

Melchiah did so before anyone else BT. Raz's claws were useless against him, and Melchiah laughed at you whenever you tried to strike him. And yet...some rusty spiked bars, falling on him simply powered by gravity, is enough to cause him major bleeding. But my dear BT, if 'evolved' Melchiah is equal to or greater than peak Kain in durability via comparative showings against Raz's claws, where is Melchiah's hundreds of times earth's core pressure per square inch durability? Perhaps those rusty spiked bars were lazer sharpened to be hundreths of a nanometer? Yeah...surely then everything would still gel together ok. Yes, I do believe that is the explanation there. smile

CosmicComet

And oh! Related to that...as the Elder God says after you kill Melchiah, barriers like gates are no longer an 'impediment to you in the spectral realm'. Which means...they obviously ARE an impediment in the physical realm. Maybe Raziel's just dumb. Maybe he doesn't realize that he could slice through thin iron/steel gates and cell bars with his hundreds of times earth core pressure producing claws. Actually, I guess that makes the Elder God quite dumb too, his relative omniscience to the LoK verse doesn't seem so great now, he doesn't even know that Raziel could rend those gates like cheese if he had to. Heh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyqnHc_syM4
^Oh. And of course the Dumah fight. Raziel could not harm him, and just like Melchiah before him laughed at Raziel's strikes, and had to resort to an explosive furnace. Oh, and of course lets not forget that prior to Raz ressurecting him, Dumah was impaled by three large spikes and Raziel was not surprised by this. How could this happen? Raziel, notes that Dumah was a 'powerful warrior in life', meaning that even while they all were 'alive' and served Kain, that Raz despite being the eldest had a clear reason to respect Dumah's power. Dumah has a portion of Kain's soul, he logically should've had even has a PORTION of Kain's durability thus. So how could Dumah possibly be impaled by human weapons if he even had a portion of Kain's Nuke+ level durability? It's not like Kain gave only billionth's of a portion of his soul to ressurect Raziel and the other five, after all Melchiah was the weakest because he was made last, and thus got the smallest portion of his soul--meaning Kain spared all that he could of his soul to make them. Do we have a reason to believe that pre-wraith Dumah was meant to be billions of times less durable than Kain? Nah. F*ck that. Raziel, who you will not admit is THAT much below Kain in physical ability, died and thus never went through the evolution that his brothers did--and he STILL was able to fight and hurt Kain somewhat after gaining nothing but Melchiah phase ability. And since he clearly respected Dumah's strength even while they were vampires, they obviously weren't that far apart, so obviously Dumah having gone through his thousand plus years of evolution was above Wraith Raziel or at least still comparable (since at the very least, the Elder God said Raz's physical strength as a wraith surpassed what he knew as a vampire when he came across his first movable block), but that didn't stop him from being impaled when he did. So a guy who was at least comparable to wraith raziel via powerscaling, still couldn't tank being impaled by large, human spikes, and we both know Kain is not billions of times more durable than Raziel. More on this later.

What's that?! You say that neither of those guys were hit by Raziel's claws in a cutscene? Ergo, its not proven?
Well firstly, you're wrong, because it wasn't a gameplay mechanic when Raziel was forced to win by exterior means, it was the plot, as seen by them dying in cutscenes by those same exterior means. (He certainly didn't try those methods for the sake of being creative.) You can make their children bleed with your claws, but you get a reaction of laughter when you hit either Dumah or Melchiah yourself. That goes beyond gameplay mechanics/balance by logical deduction, and into author intent. Oh. And guess what. You yourself have agreed to their durability being so great! Here in this thread from 07 (http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f85/t460991.html), you called Melchiah and Dumah durable; "Melchiah is nearly invincible and can go immaterial, the DMC would have to hack him to pieces or dissintegrate him, not to menstion Dumah is also nearly indestructable but is susceptable to fire." But what was this based on? According to what you would say, they don't have any 'cutscene durability' feats! Then surely you were counting the fact that Raziel can do nothing but make them laugh on his own. smile

Here, another one; this one from 08 (http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f85/t477031.html); "Dante ofcourse, Dumah as durable and strong as he is i think would be too slow to defeat Dante and would eventually succumb to death or at least become spirit". Hell, here's something from just LAST year, 2010; (http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php? threadid=526100&pagenumber=10): "No, I have seen a stronger Raziel deal no damage to Dumah." And this was in response to FinalAnswer saying Kain could be pierced by a human, rationalizing that Kain is more durable than a guy that Raziel could not hurt (Dumah), as your reason for this not being possible. Hell, we'll go even more recent than that, which also shows that you agree; http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=551930&pagenumber=6 From that thread, you were arguing with Scenario about the durability of the dumahim and stated: "Why would raziel look for other means of killing them if their not durable and able to be ripped into piecies? You also misunderstand the use of spears, water etc, because its a constant period of damage meaning it will stay inside them unlike his claws, hence why when water recedes vampires come back to life, when spears are pulled out etc. If Raziel could tear them into piecies with his super strength, he would not need water, the sun etc." Beautiful. We agree. Raziel specifically stated that 'physical wounds are fleeting, vampires' immortal flesh begins to close as soon as it is cleaved' when he met the dumahim, and basically all but ruled out his claws as a permanent option and stated impalment, flame, water, or sunlight were his only sure options. There we go. And this combined with the fact that these are fledglings, only lends more credence to the notion that Dumah and Melchiah laugh off physical strikes because they were deliberately meant to be shown superior to their offspring.

What changed your opinion? Perhaps because people increasingly began claiming over time that Dumah > Kain durability? Since the former can laugh at claw strikes and wraith blade strikes and the latter can not? Or does it truly change at all, or just shift at convenience? wink

But you know what? It doesn't matter if you changed your opinion or not. Let's use some of your own logic from that same thread against you. In that same thread, beginning on page 8, you were pushing THIS gameplay attack as an attack speed/reflex feat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF1S2bo6cSg&feature=player_embedded
^From 1:08-1:10. Firstly, it's not an impressive feat at all, as BR said a single slash is about .3+ seconds, and humans can react on average at .25 seconds to visual stimuli(here, before you ask. ). Secondly, back on page 10, when BR said: "Just to humour me, when in any cutscene has he demonstrated any reaction time above normal? As you know that would end this.", you had THIS to say in response; "It should have ended already. Not sure if I recall him doing so in a cutscene, hes never had to." And then, you said this on page 11 regarding the validity of the attack as a speed/reflex feat; "Its a static move for a PC, this means its not really under gameplay balance, what I am using is a scripted event not relevent to gameplay mechanics. The player himself is not deciding what happens between each teleport either so its as scripted as a cutscene. I posted the proof, you read it?"

Wonderful! This works out perfectly! Since the teleport slash move can be considered a 'scripted event', then SURELY, the game designers creating a laughter animation for Melchiah and Dumah, recording a laughter SOUND for Melchiah and Dumah, and then SCRIPTING the game to launch the laughter animation/sound upon Raziel attempting to harm them physically in anyway, makes the laughter events a scripted, non-'gameplay balance' related event. smile

Also, didn't you JUST ever so proudly state that you don't use 'gameplay' or 'QTEs' and only actual FMV scenes? Oh. Too bad for you then. Another instance of you shown to be an oblivious hypocrite.

You're pathetic as shit. Completely inconsistent, contradictory, and all dependent on how convenient it is for your stance at any particular time. Your blindness for Kain makes you such an easy target BT. I'd be ashamed for you, if I didn't consider you as fun to watch as a train wreck.

CosmicComet

Moving on;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpaw2P5xagM
^Janos' death. Well now. He got cut open by an iron or steel bladed weapon by a HUMAN Raziel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waQB-wgLmao
^And related to this. Vorador's execution. Death by guillotine.

Now, before you say anymore allow me to intercept you. Yes, Moebius' Staff is present in both scenes, but unfortunately, you will find NOTHING that states Moebius' staff reduces the durability of a vampire. Nothing. All it does is immobolize a vampire through pain. Moebius specifically says the staff's orb "disables our vampire enemies, leaving them helpless and incapacitated", in the very beginning of SR2. It doesn't make their skin, muscles, or bones any softer. Kain was affected in the beginning of Defiance just the same as Vorador and Janos was by Moebius' staff UNTIL, he no longer had the heart of darkness, so you can say that it causes pain for a vampire as long it has a heart. Nothing more, Nothing less. Tell me then, is Kain billions of times more durable than Vorador and Janos? Vorador who was like a mentor to Kain and centuries his elder and more evolved? Janos, who was the very father of the vampire race, and who Vorador proudly claimed to be the 'greatest of us all.' when Raziel approach his comatose, heartless body in Defiance? Kain is billions of times more durable than these people eh? Based on what? What sort of bullshit will you pull here? They are the same race, so even footing there, Vorador and Janos are MUCH older, so advantage to them there. But let's say you try to spin more bullshit with Kain as the 'scion of balance' as the answer then? But unfortunately that does not increase his durability at all, does it? You will find nothing saying the scion of balance title amps your physical stats in anyway. In fact, you yourself called it, "Roughly, Scion of balance is just a title, its the fact his fate cannot be changed means he cannot die.", on page 10 of the last thread I linked to, so unfortunately you leave yourself no room whatsoever to spin more webs of bullshit. smile

And on this note back to Dumah, there was no form of magic known to be involved when Dumah and his clan were nearly wiped out either by humans, let alone any magic specifically involved to lower Dumah's durability so he could be impaled, so no speculation there please when there is no such information. All we know is that they were careless and then taken off guard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fe27VpuhlI
^5:56.Oh, what's more, here Raziel after fighting the Hylden possessed Janos, we see Janos lying on the floor, bleeding, but still clearly alive, after his fight with Raziel. Tell me, how could this contradiction exist without making shit up? Janos was cut open by a human in Sarafan Raziel, and yet after fighting Wraith Raziel he doesn't have anything more than a little bit of bleeding? Shouldn't Janos have been bisected, indeed 'cut like confetti' by Raziel's hundreds of earth core pressure producing claws--not to mention having the reaver on top of it? Afterall, its not like Raziel wasn't trying, he clearly said he would destroy Janos' body if he had to. Perhaps you'll try to make up some more bullshit by saying the Hylden somehow amps the durability of whatever host they have taken? But, no, that would clearly be bullshit wouldn't it? They talked about the frailness of Mortanius as a host, and they mentioned Turel as being a 'durable' host, so no, they seek to possess things durable enough to last long enough for whatever task they have in mind, and as visible in Mortanius, Turel, and Janos, Hylden possession clearly causes pain--so clearly Hylden possession puts a strain on the body, it does not amplify it in anyway. Indeed Turel himself said when he was about to fight Raziel that his blood would strengthen him against 'them', as the in the Hylden possessing him. Amy Hennig also says as much, that Hylden possession strains hosts and that being 'gentle' with hosts makes them last longer;in this interview. So Hylden possession does not alter durability in anyway and if it does affect it at all, its not in a positive manner. Perhaps things are getting clear now that your calc is complete bullshit? Just maybe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHsm_NEXDXE&feature=related
^10:21 to end. And, oh, related to Janos' death. In the video I linked just earlier of his death, a dying Janos said to Raziel that least he could save Raziel's life. Save his life, from what? Obviously from the handful of sarafan warriors that ambushed him and Raziel, as shown in this video where Janos teleports Raziel out of the place out of the objective of saving him. But doesn't Janos know that Kain, Raziel's sire, is able to shrug off nukes? What could those Sarafan guys have possibly had that could then hurt Raziel if he's even a significant fraction of Kain's durability? I'm thinking they were all planning to martyr themselves with compact self-destructing nukes attached to their belts just to off Raziel with Janos, but then when they found Janos alone, who is obviously billions of times less durable than Raziel and Kain, they just decided to chop him up and take the heart instead, right?

I can accept Peak Kain being more powerful than Janos and Vorador, but he's not more durable than them by any huge multiplier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Je-DmVsUyM&feature=related
^6:49-9:48. Oh sweet lord. Now it gets really good. Raziel's first fight while wielding the physical soul reaver, 'blood reaver' if you will. He fights human versions of Melchiah and Zephon as sarafan generals. Oh dear, what does he say after the fight? He said 'the blade had a vitalizing effect on me. My physical energy no longer decayed over time. And the WOUNDS inflicted by my foes healed almost instantly.'Lol. Melchiah and Zephon had nothing but human swords, and they were able to injure him by his own admission. Just go ahead and say Kain is billions of times more durable than Raziel, so we can have more reason to roll our eyes at you as you sink your credibility even further. smile

CosmicComet

Anyway, my point with bringing up these videos is demonstrating actual limits across various showings. And to show how much your calc COMPLETELY flies in the face of the entirety of the series' visual demonstrations of limitations within the canon. It's a joke. To say you are disregarding proportionality, would be a vast understatement. Kain claims as late as even Defiance that he has a weakness to water (like most other vampires), and is inflicted negatively by Moebius' staff the same as any other vampire...and yet...he is the only vampire that can tank a nuke according to you. Brilliant. smile

Your claim's strength depends on your capability to completely handwave every showing not to your liking (in which there's A LOT. This verse is not feat heavy by ANY stretch of the imagination) as disregardable low showings (and certain things can be, to be fair), refusing to come to an average, sticking only to a clear high demonstration, and then distorting the f*ck out of that high showing with a non-sensical calc--not only that, you will THEN turn around and focus and try to embellish what would be low showings in OTHER rival characters(as seen with Ghirahim and Bowser threads). This is standard fare in fan-debates, but you definitely take it to the highest level of despicability that I've personally seen. I don't think it gets any worse than your demonstrations. But apparently, I'M the one with issues of 'blindness' and 'bias'. right.

You realize how crazy a ****ing slippery slope this whole thing creates. If Raz's claws are creating 800x earth core pressure on his claw tips, how could Kain even kick that lock and it not shatter immediately? How could Raz even tip over that obelisk without his claws piercing right in their bottom with his hundreds of times earth core durability having claws? How could Raz and Kain even pull around those large blocks without them simply pulling chunks out of them--seeing as they sure as hell won't be durable enough to offer resistance for their backwards curvature claws when they are pulling back (would be like trying to pull a very large cake with your fingers stuck in them). Perhaps the lock and obelisk were made of something really tough like neutronium! Perhaps that's why they weren't pierced! And as for the blocks not getting chunks ripped out of 'em? Eh. Surely you can chalk this up as an 'acceptable break from reality'. But wait! The lock and the obelisk CAN'T be made of neutronium as they would weigh like quadrillions of tons and sink into the Earth's core. smile

And as for 'acceptable break from reality'? Well that would be all fine and well, but unfortunately you are trying to use REAL numbers and compare them to known phenomena from REALITY, just to appraise what ONE feat could translate to in REALITY. Therefore, f*ck that, you get no courtesy with such blatant hypocrisy. smile

Face it genius, the calc falls flat on its face entirely. It was a brand new toy for you, and you paraded around with it, but unfortunately no one was impressed by it. And this metaphorical toy might as well have been something made of soft clay. As people can metaphorically snatch it out of your hands, pull out chunks from it, and make their own little toys from it to mock you. smile

Which is exactly what has happened here; HEY GUYS! Star Core pressure per square meter for any character of at least class 20 strength, human level speed, and a bladed weapon thinner than Raz's claws! Whoop Whoop! smile

Calcs are nice and all, when they are provably consistent with the canon, this wasn't. Let it go. Let it die. Even Amy Hennig
would find your claims to be the ravings of a delusional mad man.

This was over the moment I posted the Air Reaver video, since it is meant to be a feat that is vital for plot progession, as Raziel needed its level of power to proceed, and it happens in the same game that Kain supposedly has this supposed 'star core pressure durability per meter'. lol.

Now. As for the whole event that started all of this, let us address it. Raziel did NOT hurt Kain only once. He hurt him TWICE. He actually hurt him THREE times before SR2's opening retold and the ending of SR1 which it obviously picked up from.

Let's post it all the relevant confrontations first for everyone to see again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LulD2kar9I
^3:50-3:57. Raziel strikes Kain, and Kain screams out in pain and grabs his face. That's hurting someone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENosWOAWUgo
^5:05-5:35. SR1's ending. Kain walks away into the time stream limping from his fight with Raziel. But this is of course
Retconned by this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4S1i5-F8Sg&feature=related
^Obviously, the intro of Soul Reaver 2 retold Soul Reaver 1's ending, and thus it acted as a retcon. Here Kain does not
limp away hurt, but gets away unscathed despite taking 3 hits from Raziel.

And of course the infamous Defiance fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByYWsAcTX3Y
^Raziel slashes at Kain with the wraith blade, and then proceeds to rip the Heart of Darkness out of Kain.

Firstly, let's address the Soul Reaver 2 intro, as this is the event that you derived this whole crazy durability level for Kain. For this intro, you are stretching the usage of the word retcon. It retcons what it directly conflicts with, and nothing more. Thus all it does is retcon's SR1's ending. The first fight from SR1, where Raziel clearly makes Kain groan in pain, is completely in-tact until proven otherwise. Raziel recalls their first fight in SR2, how Kain broke the 'Blood' Reaver against him at the end of it, and that is exactly what happened and as such seeing as we have no other information about the fight, its portrayal stays in-tact. You are trying to create a contradiction where there isn't explicitly one at all; Kain didn't grunt in pain from Raziel's few seconds of attack whereas he did grunt in pain at the end of the first SR1 fight. All I would have to say in regards to you trying to create some big contradiction between the two, is that the first SR1 fight surely took place longer than a few seconds. That is the only justification I would have to make.

The SR2 fight, did NOT suddenly 'retcon kain's durability' to a higher level. No. Who's interpretation is the more sound one between mine and yours? Mine is. Because it only addresses what is there to see, and thus it is the simpler explanation. Yours, is more convuluted and seeks to spread whatever supposed new knowledge was gained, across multiple spans of the past and when rewound back to what the implications could mean, it simply does not hold up. Your explanation holds more assumptions, thus it has a higher likelihood of failure.

Raziel manages to make Kain groan in pain from his claws in one fight, and doesn't manage to do so in the few seconds of attack from a future fight. No contradiction. Nothing here that alters the flow of the history/story or anything like that. They were simply two different fights, and they played out differently. Nothing more, nothing less. My explanation is simpler. Occam's Razor wins again. No retcon between SR2's intro and SR1's first kain fight.

CosmicComet

Now, let us address the Defiance fight. Where Raziel DOES once again manage to hurt Kain with his claws, this time quite badly as he stabs into him instead of taking horizontal swipes with his strongly curved in claws.

You've argued that Raziel only manages to stab into Kain because he 'weakened' him first with the reaver. Let's outline what you could mean, in a mix of any of the following;

1. You could be arguing that being struck by the Soul Reaver lowers Kain's durability somehow.
2. You could be arguing that the blood loss from the Reaver strike lowered Kain's durability somehow.
3. You could be arguing that Raziel created a soft spot a for him to drive his claws through to get the heart.

Well firstly, there is no such statement anywhere that being struck with the Soul Reaver lowers Kain's durability. Nowhere.
Secondly, we know blood loss does not lower a vampire's durability, and you basically agreed when you talked about Raziel's options with the Dumahim. If blood loss did lower their durability, then surely he would be able to rip at them for awhile with his claws until they finally lost enough blood to be soft enough to rip in half or some such, but that obviously never happens. As Umah says in BO2, drinking blood grows your health and keeps you strong, so all blood loss does is weaken vampires physically, it does not make their skin, muscles, bones etc any softer. And this basically works the same with the Reaver, if a Reaver strike makes Kain weaker, then that's all its doing, making him weaker due to the blow and its obvious effects like blood loss etc. That's not equivalent to saying his durability somehow gets lowered. As for the third option, that Raziel created a soft spot for his claws to drive through, no, it does not work. Firstly, because the strike wasn't even large enough for them to even bother making a texture showing Kain with any noticeable slash mark on him (yet they clearly bothered to make a new texture for the hole in his chest as we'll see). So therefore, it clearly wasn't a large wound. And since it wasn't even large enough to create a graphic for the damage, it doesn't matter since the wound is clearly much smaller than the width of Raziel's hands. Only if it made a huge gouge that more or less encompassed the width of Raz's hand could the argument be made that Kain was softened up before Raz dipped in. And finally...the place that Kain grabbed in pain after the Reaver strike was NOT the same place that Raz plunged his claws into. See these screens caps:
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/6376/kaincut.png
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/6196/kainchest.png

As you can see, Kain is clearly favoring his lower abs and side with his left hand, and you can even see the red mist around his side and obscuring his claws a bit. That's blood, and that's indicating that he's bleeding from that area. You can even see this more clearly in motion itself, since the video I linked to is high quality to begin with, and it has a 720p option as well. Now, where did Raziel strike Kain with his claws? What I showed above is the clearest view of the hole in Kain after Raziel ripped the heart out, and as we can see the darkest/deepest part of the wound is CLEARLY through his chest. So there we go, Raziel slashed Kain to his right side, around the ribs. And Raziel plunged his hand through Kain's CHEST. No softening up going on here. None whatsoever.

On the other hand, Raziel's status within the event is CONCLUSIVELY known. He was weakened. A weakened Raziel plunged into Kain's chest. How do we know he was weakened as his soul and the wraith blade was being siphoned off to Kain and the 'blood' reaver? One, because it should be obvious, since he was fading in and out of existence in the Defiance scene, and because he said so here in SR2 when the conjoined blades turned on him, 8:23; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DkkoFhG3SQ&feature=related
"I felt myself weakening..." And further more, going back to Kain's status a bit, even if we somehow assumed one or more of the above 3 hypothetical factors were true after being struck by the wraith blade, it would have been entirely temporary as we KNOW Raziel being absorbed into the 'Blood' Reaver heals Kain while he wields it, because we see it being stated and happening, here at 5:39-6:47. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDANlR9D-Es&feature=related "...and the Scion of Balance, is healed." And we know 'healed' is not just some ambiguous meaning like 'healed of corruption' and such, because as we see at the end at 6:47, the hole in Kain's chest is gone. Good as new. And the hole was there just minutes before when he killed Moebius within the same cutscene/video.

In closing, we KNOW conclusively that Raziel was weakening when he stabbed Kain with his claws and ripped the heart out, and we know that there is nothing but unwarranted speculation to say Kain was negatively affected in a manner that made it easier for Raziel to stab into him--and that if there WAS a negative effect, it would have been minor, and healed anyway, by the fact that its stated and shown that Raziel being absorbed into the Reaver heals the Scion of Balance, which is what Kain is.

If you want to call PIS on the whole thing now, TOO BAD. You can't. Raziel doesn't exactly have a lot of showings against Kain, and the other ones were too short and trivial to the plot to matter; E.G. it didn't matter at all to the plot whether Raziel actually managed to hurt Kain in those earlier showings or not, but this one in Defiance is simply FAR too monumental to the plot to wave off, not to mention it IS the most recent--and thus if you really want to use the 'retconned durability' argument for Kain in SR2's intro, then you sure as f*ck can't say no if someone said this Defiance scene 're-retconned' his durability.

Now...let's talk about God of War again for a moment. You wanted me to prove that the volcanic eruption that Kratos tanked was greater than Earth's core pressure? Why? What's the point when we know your math means nothing as is?
But fine, I'll go about addressing its plausibility without going in-depth. Nukes can surpass the earth's core pressure. stratovolcanos tend to outdo nukes in output (e.g. krakatoa was five times more powerful than the tsar bomb and it wasn't even the most powerful eruption in history) while at the same time being more contained/compressed, obviously. This sounds like a great recipe for outdoing the benchmark you asked for. And here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=- DkMsa4skJg&feature=relmfu 4:22-end. Eruption threw him miles away to Crete and through a pillar.

Now, finally, moving on.

As for the accusation of 'illogical deductions', you will surely agree with me, internally at least (provided you aren't insane, though I'm starting to think you are), that your ability for reason and logical does not exactly...exist at all--at least for the topic of LoK. Afterall, the main catalyst for my response to you is based on the premise of an over the top calc; one of the (at this scale, a very understated one) implications of this calc being that Kain could essentially yawn off a ground zero nuclear explosion. But please do you tell yourself and others, that everyone else is the 'troll' or 'blind' or 'biased' or
'illogical'. Please do continue. It amuses the rest of us whilst you continue to be the butt of our jokes. smile

CosmicComet

'You're reaching.' Proof that you don't have anyway of rebutting the logic of my statement, and have taken to the standard catch-all handwaving phrase, and coming up with your own baseless interpretation.

It can't be reaching, it was absolutely correct, and it doesn't contradict what the game shows in the least, either. In fact the game supports it completely. What did I say again? I said 'tired' is relative. For example a tired class 100 doesn't because human level weak just because he's tired. Likewise a guy
fast enough to vertically run up a several mile long chain without his speed reaching zero before hand, is not going to sink to human levels
of speed just because he's tired. And indeed he still WAS superhuman levels of speed, as he was just as much a blur as he was prior.

What you're describing here is gameplay speed. Irrelevant. He doesn't move around the room fast. but neither does dante or boss fight vergil move in game at actual mach 20 speeds despite feats like the Teminguru (sp?) Tower run proving Dante can. Kratos is as fast as hermes with his roll alone, yet he's obviously not meant to be as fast. Try it. Its completely a gameplay speed. Again, irrelevant.

Also, as I said with baseless interpretation, that is exactly what you are giving me. What cutscene or statement are you using to say that Kratos only managed to catch up to Hermes while he was limping about? Hermes does NOT start limping about, e.g. stumbling around in his acrobatic attempts, until you DAMAGE him enough. When you simply start the fight he fights normally with intermittent stops here and there, only after you hurt him enough for him scream and drop green orbs in slow mo does he finally begin to actually stumble about and fail at running up a wall. Try it. So since its a fight we can only deduce based on what transpired within the gameplay, the only thing to deduce is that Hermes got more exhausted BECAUSE Kratos was hitting him, and not that Kratos only caught up to him after Hermes got truly exhausted. How can we be truly sure that Kratos was hitting Hermes during the fight? Because Hermes WHINES about it during the fight, "Unfair Kratos! No hitting!" And he says this through the entire stage of the fight, even while he's fresh enough to not stumble about in the beginning. How can we trust what Hermes says here? Simple. Another example in-battle character statement shows just how reliable they can be as to the certainty of occured events; when you are fighting Poseidon he says here and there that 'Atlantis shall be avenged!' This happened in Ghost of Sparta, yet when God of War 3 came out Ghost of Sparta hadn't even been ANNOUNCED yet for months, and wouldn't release until
almost 9 months after. So we can count on the characters giving spoilers for games months out from even being revealed, let alone released, so we should be able to trust what they say is happening in the present tense, in this case; Hermes saying Kratos is hitting him. And no, finding speed feats for Hermes is hardly irrelevant, that's what we use to powerscale what he'd be when he's tired--and again, its asinine to think his speed loss was huge. Once more, one's jogging speed while fresh isn't going to be outright superior to one's sprinting speed while tired, they should be comparable. Same principle applies here, as Hermes' other feats were casual, yet he was not being casual against Kratos in the fight. Hell, here's a Hermes reaction feat from God of War 2 that seems to be missed often; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7hpesTIlww&feature=related 3:01-3:08. A titan tosses a boulder and it crosses maybe twice the length of its body height in about a second. So its going ~1000 meters a second which is ~mach 2.94. The little guy that rolls out of the way just before it touches down is Hermes. Why then did he not get out of the way of the incoming boulder from the catapult? Plot requirement. There was a roof next to the statue that he could've jumped on to avoid it but they had him stand and gawk instead. Hell, as soon as the statue had crashed through and we see Kratos again, we see that Hermes had already left a blood trail leading around the building to the other side. So as soon as he touched down he already started running and covered a greater distance than he would've had to cover to simply get off the statue of Athena. So yes, that and the boulder dodging says him standing on Athena's statue was nothing but plot requirement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8rSHtdpEeI
^5:44-6:04. Kratos reacting to Charon's teleport-esque walking on screen. And then proceeds to beat the shit out of him in the fight. This is their second fight, in the first one, a big green blast of energy from Charon's ferry knocked Kratos out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZEQuqXEv50
^Kratos reacts to Erinys throwing a human at him. The dude was thrown so fast the stone bridge behind Kratos was busted by the impact. How was fast did he have to go to do that? Faster than Kain has ever gone in his life. Here we see a ~13 ton dump truck, going 50 mph, not even doing anything to this concrete blockade. So yeah...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFi0QMp9bn0

The gods have had shown enhanced senses and reactions since the very first game now that I think about it. Ares, threw a sharpened pillar all the way from Athens to Pandora's temple in the Desert of Lost Souls. The desert of lost souls is at least a dozen or more miles wide, just by how small Kronos looked wandering it, and from how expansive it looked even from a very high platform (it was maybe 700 feet high when compared to a kneeling Kronos). And then of course there is the distance between the desert and athens, which is not small, hell there's a mountain range between the two. From start to 1:31, a reminder of how big the desert looked; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHtjKDfaTkE&feature=related. Ares' pillar throw was crossing maybe...24 miles in 10 seconds, and from that vast distance he was able to see where Kratos was standing, aim at him perfectly, and see his thrown pillar hit him. That's enhanced reactions and senses, legit.

CosmicComet

Artemis from the God of War novel, likewise had a enhanced senses and reflexes feat. The situation was that Artemis wanted to protect her woodland creatures from Ares and his army. They were attacking her forests and she in turn to get Ares to back off, attacked Ares' army to get him to leave her domain alone and in turn she would leave his army alone. Word for Word: " 'You turn your hand against my creatures.' Artemis lowered the aim of her bow. 'Witness how I turn my hand against yours.' She released her arrow, which shot from her bow more swiftly than lightning and before it could strike, another arrow appeared and was released. So many arrows flew so swiftly, that the glade seemed filled with a golden haze, that buzzed and snarled like a nest of angry hornets. After that single instant, Artemis lowered her bow and looked up at Ares; 'So?' The God of War looked down upon his army, every once living creature of his in that glade lay dead. Every undead creature was mutilated beyond recognition. The wolves and bears and elk stood untouched." There we go, a rather understated goddess like Artemis (for this verse) did something as awesome as eliminate an entire army by shooting so many arrows in less than a second, that the glade seemed caught up in a golden haze from the color of all the arrows flying, and then only specific targets were killed. It's reasonable to assume more imposing Gods were at least comparable to her in reflexes. I suppose the argument that all the gods simply jobbed to Kratos could be made...but that would be kind of daft. I mean,really? For the entire series? He is Zeus' son and all, and is no normal mortal. All the other mortals were dying of a plague once Hermes was killed, and yet Kratos was completely unaffected, for example.

Moving on, Kratos was able to react to a charge by the Leviathan. When one first charges out of the water, here 7:47-8:08;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3rgcBaI4v8 it is undeniably going hypersonic. Seeing as how small the titan looked while falling, and that the titans being 500 meters tall makes them just under 1/3 of a mile tall, I'm willing to guess the Leviathan crossed something like 3 to 6 miles a second in this scene. Then of course Kratos reacts to a charge by the Leviathan, in slow motion, and it was a surprise charge as well, 8:23-8:30: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOzGvWPQjxs&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c4fosyAX40&feature=relmfu
^9:30-10:14 Another reaction feat, the titan fell from a pretty impressive distance, but Kratos flies up from the underworld from at least as great a distance. The titan fell from what I'd say is roughly halfway up Olympus down into an ocean below it. The underworld is far below that ocean, and Kratos flies from all the way down there up to the labyrinth, all in about 40 seconds. According to one of the in-game murals, the labyrinth is in the center of Mt. Olympus. So Kratos basically flies several miles up through a narrow 'chute' in ~40-45 seconds, all the while avoiding obstructions and falling debris like molten boulders to try to get to Pandora who is in distress.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GskjvpRdWlA
^1:25-1:49. In the Kronos fight, he is able to jump from shoulder to palm. A distance of maybe 800 feet (granted he was coming down at a slant), considering Kronos is 500 meters/1640 feet tall. From a still position, his leg strength was able to propel him 800 feet in a single bound. Meaning if he was actually SPRINTING, he'd be even be even faster than this. Sprinting > stationary horizontal leaping, in speed. Kain doesn't have a single speed feat to demonstrate he could cover 800 feet in roughly a second.

Let's talk about LoK's speed then shall we? Some videos that have been already posted maybe reused here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So42r9XTqZE
^He couldn't even blitz moebius before the latter activated the sceptor. Granted the next time they meet, he simply
TKs it out of Moebius' hand before he gets closer, but the point is even from that, is that their interactions in Defiance is pretty much just like a human posturing against another human, where whoever has the intitiative, element of surprise, etc. gets the advantage, and no different than their interaction in BO, which was thousands of
years ago and yet Kain's reaction time has clearly not improved since then. Which I will continue to show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDANlR9D-Es&feature=related
^5:20-5:26. Kain TK's himself forward and stabs Moebius' body that Raziel just occupied. At first glance, this seems fast...but he's only going about 3 meters in half a second. So 6 meters a second. Which amounts to....a little over 13 miles per hour...not even Olympic sprinter level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1345m0oWk4&feature=related
^:09-:12 seconds. Kain jumps about 15 meters/50 feet, in 2 seconds. Better than what I had before, but...um...it comes out to about 17 mph in a short burst. Not anywhere close beyond human perception. And the thing is, even if you try to scale up to how fast he would be if he was sprinting, it unfortunately wouldn't work. Why? Because it's not simply a matter of strong leg muscles allowing him to jump fast (which would logically allow him to run fast as well since jumping ability and speed is strongly correlated.), but its simply a 'dark gift' he gained from a fellow vampire, Faustus, in BO2. And the dark gift is specifically called...'Jump'. no expression

Proof here, where he beats Faustus and gains the 'Jump' ability and then uses it, from 11:16-12:35; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X6D_ynf7wY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGS-1X8auH0&feature=related
^11:26-12:00 Marcus, a vampire, running. And a human sarafan guard keeping pace with him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmDz2FEmYKw&feature=related
^1:49-2:00 Kain attacks the Hylden Lord at human level of speed. Why is it human level? Because he made his lunge within the timeframe it took to say 'Fiend!'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcatJAQeqLs&feature=related
^2:29-2:44 Raziel lunging at Kain with human level speed, Kain reacts in time to toss him. How do we know he was lunging at human level speed?Because as above with Kain, Raziel's attack was given a time frame with a grunted word; 'Begins'. And needless to say...this human level speed Raziel manages to slash Kain later within this fight. So there definitely isn't any real disparity between their perception speed. smile

Or maybe I'm mistaken and vampires just produce vocal sounds at faster speeds than humans as well? ;p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Je-DmVsUyM&feature=related
^6:49-9:48 And as posted already, Raziel admitted after beating human Melchiah and Zephon at the same time, that he got wounds from them and that they simply healed from the reaver. He fought two humans in thick plate armor, and could not avoid getting wounds inflicted on him. Once again, a demonstration of roughly human level reaction time.

^5:32-5:50 from the same video. Raziel couldn't prevent Moebius and Malek from bolting the door on him. If being a vampire grants such a big speed advantage over mortals, why couldn't Raziel as a vampire wraith run past them easily?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh26jrgXHX0&feature=related
^2:53-3:54. Raziel, who we've established is equal to Kain in reaction time, thought it strange that Vorador teleported away once Raziel discovered he was following him in SR2. He reasoned that someone bold enough to assault the circle of 9 single handedly (granted though he did not face all of them.), should have no reason to fear him. (This statement also allows us to infer that Vorador is at least comparable to Kain in SR2, and yet he was still destined to die by a guillotine at this point.) So surprise attacking a group of spell slinging humans is considered an impressive feat in LoK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIMP0MvBG6A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYtdgjs35tc&feature=related
^8:07-9:49 first video. start to :57 second video. Vorador fought Malek twice. And neither times did he show himself to be above him in reaction time, in fact they were quite comparable. The first time Vorador started the fight with a sneak attack at Malek's helmet, stunning him for a bit. Then when they started fighting earnestly, Vorador could not get past Malek's guard. He had to resort to stepping back and trying to blast him to finally get a victory. The second time, when Malek's soul is bound to his armor, Malek reacted to Vorador teleporting behind him and socked Vorador in the face. Again, it was an even fight reaction time wise. Vorador was able to defeat the armored spectre version of Malek, whereas young Kain had to flee because he couldn't find a way to win. Still, Kain matched Malek well blow for blow and only left out of hunger and to buy himself time. So even Vorador, who is centuries older than Kain, while clearly more skilled and powerful at the time, had not developed reaction time any greater than possible for a fit human. Malek is just a Sarafan general. While highly skilled and definitely above grunts, its simply greater skill and experience, he's still just human. Even him doing a backflip in the armor, is still completely within human possibilities, as there's a vid or two on youtube of people backflipping with full plate armor on.

CosmicComet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpaw2P5xagM
^:30-:38.Janos tries to swipe at human Raziel's face, but the latter is able to avoid it. Another example of an ancient vampire that had not developed reactions times any greater than human level despite all his time alive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhDQWmV3-9o&feature=related
^:34-:44. Here's Kain, getting spotted easily by guards just as he teleports.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rcfoR0CyHI
^1:54-2:04. Young Kain fought William. And got hit by him. William and Kain were both wielding 'Blood' Reavers and Kain admits that William got in some hits and that he had to replenish the blood lost from the fight...Granted, William had some guards with him, but William was literally nothing but a teenager at the time and he STILL got in blows against Kain. Don't try to say that William's Reaver took blood away from Kain without ever hitting him either if its convenient for you to say so now, as you said here in the respect thread after putting up the William the just fight that he was being hit; "Kain can take the soul reavers strikes even at his weakest and despite its power, can resist its soul devouring and force and only requires the blood of a man to restore his vitality."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh3lzjs_Ubk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCtDPjHpBUI
^Young Kain fought the Dark Entity, which was just the Hylden Lord posessing Mortanius as stated by Amy Hennig. And then, When Kain fought the Hylden Lord when he was occupying his own body in BO2, Kain STILL hadn't developed his reaction time since then. Otherwise he would have at least shown to be faster than the Hylden Lord, but he really didn't. Kain was hundreds of years older when he fought the Hylden Lord in BO2, and he still didn't develop his attack speed noticeably. Granted Kain started off weaker since he woke up from a 200 year sleep set on by the Hylden Lord beating him before the story begins, but by the end of it he was stronger than he was at the end of BO1 since he had gotten more dark gifts that he had beaten from other vampires he had known, who had developed their powers well during that 200 years of sleep he was stuck in.

After all these videos, it should be apparent now that whether we're looking back as far as Blood Omen or as far foward as Defiance, reaction time and reflexes above humans, is pretty much non-existent. Vampires just don't seem to develop their speed and reaction time no matter how old they are, as we see clearly in examples regarding Kain. Umah tells us in BO2 that vampires are supposed to have 'inhuman speed and agility', but as best as can be figured, its 'inhuman' in the same way a mountain lion would be. You know, a couple of times faster than a good sprinter, able to leap vertically a good 15-18 feet, and such, but as far as pure reaction time/reflexes/attack speed goes? Not noticeably greater than human range at all. The fastest vampire by feats, was Sebastian in BO2, and even then he wasn't that impressive. The best he did was run along the edge of a circular room, something I've seen people on motorcyles do similarly. And even when Kain absorbed his soul, he didn't even get his level of speed, all he got was a new little combo move called Berserk that still wasn't particularly fast.

I more than welcome a speed feat challenge if you're even up to it, it would be easy on my end after all I've shown and that you've basically admitted in a prior quote that you don't have anything. Kratos has clear cut superior speed in any manner you can think of; his own personal speed/reaction feats, powerscaling from foes he's fought, or even gameplay attack speed since you've allowed yourself to open up that avenue with a prior quoted example.

Shut up, idiot, with your baseless ignorance accusations. It should be obvious now that I know AT LEAST as much about LoK as you do about God of War. I owned SR and SR2, and while I didn't own Defiance personally, I did have a friend who did. I didn't own Blood Omen 1 or 2, but I've seen both games in their entirety. At the same time, you haven't read the god of war novel or the comics, so things balance out at the very least. Unfortunately, my memory is hardly as fresh since those games were played so long ago that youtube will be required here and there. Even IF my knowledge of things were soley from youtube, it is a completely moot point if the walkthroughs in youtube show the entirety of the games' story. All that matters is that the same information is conveyed. Not how it is digested. You sound like some elitist chump, which is fine, you aren't credible on this forum as it is. It's also contradictory since you only watch bits and pieces of youtube vids of LoZ and still make comments.

Also, what is the 'LOLOL Kratos Titan blocking shit AGAIN!!' supposed to be a parody of you abject retard? A parody of me laughing at an non-sensical unsupported calc--is somehow comparable to laughing at an actual on-screen feat? Ok, if you want. It doesn't really make sense from a demonstration of wit point of view, but ok.

You are the worst fan wanker of all time. Ever. Cloud/Sephy boys have nothing on you. Make no mistake about it. And you have done more harm to LoK on here than good because you are a terrible 'representative'. The worst thing to happen to Kain is not getting killed by thugs as a noble, getting reborn as a vamp by Mortanius, or even corrupting the pillars; you are. There's no reason to bothered in being a fan of a verse that isn't heavy on super feats, and that definitely applies to LoK, but the thing is you realize this fact and it DOES bother you. It bothers you A LOT. That's why you seek such help externally from other people's numbers, where few others would care to even look, in order to attempt to get a hollow 'one-up' over rival characters. Kain is a guy with a lot of nifty powers, strength level inferior to that of spiderman, combat speed at best comparable with that of batman when minding teleportion, and durability at BEST above bulletproof level with an inconsistent calc, and at worst well below it when considering the entire limitations across the canon. U mad?

...Why are you so dumb BT? I ask in the most genuinely concerned manner possible here. You are just...the worst kind of idiot. The kind that happens to have a decent semblence of intelligence; and thus will basically gather any convoluted explanation to defend their views. You're just an insane troll. Seek help.

But yeah the next time Kain is chilling inside our sun, he should ask Superman who'll be right next to him, for ideas on how to save Nosgoth. Surely they'll think of a solution together.

Nephthys

I couldn't decide between these two, so here, have both:

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/970341_o.gif http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/images/smiles/orson_welles_clap.gif

Comet wins. For Forever and Eternity.

But maybe you should tone don't some of the comments in the future. They're a little bashy.

FinalAnswer

I would profile this, but

Yeah.

Nephthys

Though as awesome as that was, some of the comments were just unnessicarily aggressive and offensive.

Not impressed with that. erm

ScreamPaste

/Clap

General Kaliero

CosmicComet, knock off the personal attacks.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by General Kaliero
CosmicComet, knock off the personal attacks. Bawh, a reprimand without appreciation for the effort? :C

Demonic Phoenix

Minstrels will write songs about CC.

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/images/smiles/orson_welles_clap.gif

Demonic Phoenix

CC, this is the Hermes feat you mentioned.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q289/Rising_god_Phoenix/16.jpg

Burning thought

Originally posted by CosmicComet

I probably shouldnt give this a second look due to the huge amount of bashing and fallacies, its a shame because those posts would have all been quite good for KMC had it not been for those but you couldnt help yourself it seems but I respect the effort and will counter without bashing of course.

Again, ignorance of the source material. Raziel clearly easily deals with them all, whether he blitzed them is none of your concern, he did not decide to use many attacks at all, he just fought them with the sword and I dont know where you got Kains=Raziels from, thats wrong as well since Kain is generally superior to Raziel, theres a few feats as well that Raziel does not have.

Sure, the dimentional reaver attack requires Kain to percieve and attack an opponent between the teleports, since hes not part of the world between the attacks he is visualising and taking in the information all at once when he appears, his mind is capable of doing this and attacking in whats a fraction of a second, its a better feat than Raziel or his younger self.

This last paragraph is a waste of time for several reasons, you left out that both of those you mensioned were hobbled by the staff of Moebius while being defeated and Sarafan Raz being confident makes the future Raz less impressive? what?

Yes it is, its always in question and if anyone arrogently claims their above another without proving it to that person then their just making hot air and people, including you make pages of posts just to try and gain my approval, you realise I am posting this to you out of a favour and not because your more credible? I think your posts here prove that popularity is the only currency you can barter with here and only because I am disliked, mostly because of how ime not as young as some of these posters id wager. laughing

the math speaks for itself, if you want to complain about how much pressure Kain can take then take it up with those who did all the math because I certainly didnt do it, I did the first part that people in the off-topic thread laughed at and you know what happened? 3 other people got into it who had no bias and they found me right....this is KMC.

Yes your right, a meaningless extrapolation, especially when trying to compare real world muscle strength to what Kratos can do, Kratos is not much larger than people on the "worlds strongest man" yet none of them can lift half of the things little Raziel can lift or tip.

Also i think you have a double standard on your hands in this last part. Your making large claims of how I have used large calcs that do not make sense but then your claiming Kratos is billions of times stronger, based on what exactly? hes stronger, but billions? what math suggets this? his best feat is pushing a large hand off of his body with his full strength, at best the arm may weight in at thousands of tons but billions? no....and this last part is especially bad, Kratos has control of his own strength so pressing himself etc does not give him any durability feat, further there are a lot of things in that we can see as wrong, like his bodyweight not getting launched.

Originally posted by CosmicComet

Their not as strong though as Kratos, so no and they have never used such strength values either. And he cant strike with as much force as Raziel because his strength is sub-par, his speed is also decent but that does not help him much in achieving the same power, the rest of this is a dispointing slew of insults, its like you dont have the evidence for your claim so berrating me was your counter? great...

If Raziels claws were blunt he wouldnt be so easily able to slice into concrete, stone and people and use them as a weapon and further, what hits Kain is the very tip so the whole shape is irrelevent, and most of this is semantics, youve got a couple of extra square millimeters in your conclusion.

Although its true the verse has only low strength feats, theres a lot worse in other games more commonly used and GoW is one of those that are not among that number and is in fact very strong strengthwise. You seem to be going on a rant as if I said Kratos could not create a lot of pressure or something, my whole argument previously was Kratos would never hit Kain because hes too slow.

Originally posted by CosmicComet

All of thise is a waste of time, its almost like your saying just because I use figuires higher than someone elses I am wrong? Bloodrains calcs seem to change depending on his relation to the person hes talking to, if you recall the obelisk feat was at 1k tons at one point, then went down to 800, then 500 and when BR got snarky with me, it went to 300 and was calced as a severe frustum despite it having sloped sides not even close to the more severe ones he was comparing it to. Point is, M and D figuires brought to light the true calcluations for finding what the "dead-drop" power is and wahts more, their completly unbias because they dont even come to games vs, I am pretty sure if they did come here and spent a month or so of me putting down their arguments they would become upset and twist some calcs around as well but as it stands thats not true. Further, most of your numbers here are simply assuming SP's math, which was a troll and I have equelly lowballing figuires for link, BR simply posted some of it with his own and still, as you said the figuires are very high.

Originally posted by CosmicComet

The plane more or less disintegrated, a lot of the energy just got sent back through the plane becuase the wall is incredibly durable, the same sort of thing would probably happen to Kratos if he punched Kain wink

although seriously, this does not prove anything. This is you extrapolating on something you dont understand with something you dont understand, then adding in something like a nail on the tip as if that makes a feat less impressive.

Who cares? whoever is on the recieving end. Also I like how this post simply concludes into bashing again, its almost like at the end of your posts you realise yourself your evidence is pretty weak and you have to add insults to make it look like your in control, when to me it just shows a lack of it, and adds some fallacies that would in any logical or offical argument disqualify you. The numbers speak for themselves, I dont have to do any more than show them.

I like how when it comes to the actual evidence from the games, the only thing of your extrapolations that matter you fall disapoingly short, your using mostly gameplay mechanics and limits to try and convey that Raziel is weak? Kratos cant just break through walls either, comparatively he struggles audiably against small doors and mechanisms and even health chests, these are mechanics and thats all your listing here.

And neither Raziel, Kain or Kratos and most KMC characters we debate gain strength from their physical bodies, so the whole "he should be able to jump high" is nonsense and just as comparable to Kratos.

The doors, Raziel hardly tries and leaps away from the avalanche of rocks. How can you tear it off? he could effectively slice it up but how? and why when all he has to do is find a way round? your using whats practically a mechanic in almost every game of its type, including GoW to lowball feats, their not even good showings.

On the tomb thing, so what? he slices through it...it didnt stop the sword...that same attack would one shot Kratos,Dante etc, so Kain has good reason to fear it.

I dont know about 1 foot, looks like many square meters, but he says he now has the means to obliterate them, he never said he could never pick through them with his claws. Also an RPG? an RPG cannot blow open meters of concrete/rock, and theres nothing there that suggests Raziel couldnt have dug, if anything his basic feats from clawring puzzle blocks proves this, again your using mechanics, in this case the requirement of finding keys to doors, Link, Kratos, Dante etc do this all the time.

Melchiah didnt tank them, also do you know the difference between a cutscene and gameplay mechanics? You realise my feat for Kain is an FMV that closely shows Raziel hitting Kain with his claws, your using what equates to a boss fight with mechanic based tactics involved, melchiah is never durable but bosses in GoW are the same, Kratos strikes with his blades an ingodly number of times, has to weaken them and then he has to hit weak points half the time.

Burning thought

Originally posted by CosmicComet

Well he couldnt just "walk" through them before like he can now.

This whole part of your post can be counted with "Dumah has no durability feats" so comparing him to Kain is worthless. And Kain is billions times more durable than Raziel.

Kains got a vast number of durability feats over the years, mostly more recently so I dont know why your using old posts to apprently claim me wrong, I have seen ridiculous numbers of laughable posts that people still stick to this day, I am flexible and "can" be convinced by good evidence.

That is scripted though, that happens to be how the attack works wheras the reactions of Dumah are not technically scripted and its still based around the mechanic which is not being able to harm bosses with regular attacks.

The only thing I am ashamed for is the fact you completly ruin all of your posts and arguments by bashing and flameing as if, as I said before you need to prop up your argument which falls flat without a bit of bashing.

Originally posted by CosmicComet

Janos has no feats and is weakened by the Staff of Moebius.

Same here.

Also this is probably my favourite rant, you find two featless vampires, use them in a weakened state and although its true its not stated that it weakens them physically, thats not enough for you to say it doesnt when your making the argument these vampires are soft which tbh I dont care for, as I said they are featless os yes, Kain is bilions of times stronger. And Moebius' staff affects the vampiric spirit as well, not just the heart, as can be shown when in his presence Raziels wraith blade dissapates. If you know anything about LoK, you know the soul is like a direct connection to ones power.

No form of magic known, we dont know anything about how Dumah and his clan were destroyed other than they "were", by vampire hunters. Who, consistently have used magic over the years, in Defiance almost every group you come across have some sorcery.

We know Raziel did not want to kill Janos full stop, so you again, fall short here and as Amy herring pointed out, their talking about strain from possession, immortal vessels last longer than mortal ones. Humans drain, that doesnt mean the Hylden lord, who indeed came with his own powers and magic did not protect himself.

Oh look, again using Raziel in place of Kian as if that makes things comparable, you use too many titles Cosmic, too many. You link people up like "oh Kain sired, or Kain gave life/his soul to Dumah etc" as if this automatically gives them feats.

My credability stands just as firm as it always has, in the evidence and not using strawmans and fallacies like you my dear friend smile

Originally posted by CosmicComet

And you failed completly, youve brought up mostly gameplay mechanics, things you "suppose" should be true just because a character has a small part of Kain in him (no crude puns or jokes intended) and more importantly youve used gameplay tropes used in pretty much every game, this whole "air reaver" thing is just a key for a door, Kratos does the same in every one of his games, he has to run over and pull a lever or find some special item to get somewhere. Dante, Link, hell all of these people probably do it far more than LoK. I recall Dante hanging around a door just because he couldnt figuire out to smack the concrete slab next to it to open up the door. This whole thing is in a cutscene, your evidence is nothing but a "suppose".

Your bringing up a vast number of double standards, much of which you dont even understand, you champion a universe (GoW) that spits in the face of all these things and how he acts towards chronos is so far ahead of all his others feats, before or after its funny how you would complain about me and LoK considering your hypocrisy here when the difference between toppling one pillar thats only a few times heavier than the blocks he flips around with ease throughout his entire game.

Amy herring created it and the team made those obelisks so I dont know why, if anything she would laugh at your trying to compare some of these scenes as if their low showings and using mechanics, your probably among the people who asked Amy why there are a lot more hearts of darkness in Blood omen.... and most people argued in games vs cannot say they have taken any sharp object of any high pressure, including Kratos.

It retcons everything shown canonically, if Kain is shown nigh immune in this scene wheras before he was badly weakened, how can you say otherwise? it retcons it, simple as that. The SR 1 durability in the previous scene is retconned in this scene as well, you cant use durability from a version of the game thats retconned in the sequel and whats more ,SR1 is nothing tbh, its just Kain holding his face, it could be just as much to do with Raziel breaking his spell cast, hitting his more vulnerable areas on his face or w/e, theres no physical wound however, which means little.

No, I dont make any assumptions, what are you talking about? I see Kain in the old scene limping away more or less defeated, and I see Kain tanking blows like their nothing, not even getting a bruise, therefore Kains durability is vastly higher than before.

Originally posted by CosmicComet

Or I could be argueing that being struck by the most powerful weapon in the series, makes you weaker than your max strength especially when your hunched over in pain and bleeding. And yes it is the same area, your caps show a wound just below Kains band of cloth that holds his cape thing on, his hand is also below this area, the wraith blade covers the whole chest because its large, and whats more, Kain spits blood so its more than just a flesh wound. Your pretty much claiming that theres no difference between getting hit while your at full strength and unharmed and being hit not long after you doubled over in agony, spitting blood from being struck by a weapon thats imbued with a vast amount of elemental powers and spiritual force on top of Raziels physical...

Theres also how Kain was launched by the hit to consider, if you hit someone on only one side their going to counter balance and fall to the opposite side, especially since Kain was launched through the air but no, he falls almost directly backwards from a strike that he holds on his chest.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

yes because being struck by the most powerful blade in the game is not a negative factor. Again, blindly bias. Also, youve failed to read Amy herrings q/a's where she points out absorbing the wraith blade itself heals Kain, nothing to do with Raziel being absorbed into the reaver, so again, source knowledge is handy.

Kratos based on that just gets launched by it though, he does not stand there and shrug off the whole pressure of the energy in the volcano, most of that is, as Volcanos go on the lava in the first place and the pressure in the eruption, Kratos at no point takes the entire force of all the pressure, Kain on the other hand can take the entire force of all the pressure of the sun on his body. Also youve not actually disproven any of "M, D and BR"'s math yet, youve made crude comparisons to gameplay and thought that would make things less legit, we can all do that.

I like how someone who thinks a few videos of gameplay mechanics, and assertions that have no bearing in fact and that counter his own fiction (GoW) can rule any greater logical reasoning over anyone. And again, with the bashing.

Burning thought

Originally posted by CosmicComet

You clearly must have not played the game, Kratos struggles to catch up with hermes and cannot fight him until Hermes has his leg slashed and damaged, hermes is literally slowly moving around, its as simple as that. Well he is if his legs that give him said speed are ruined.

Again Cosmic, gameplay, you have to watch this. And again, tiny room, Kratos uses especially long chain blades that could cover most of that room in length, speed never comes up in that fight for Kratos, only endurance and persistance.

Also I like how your using "plot requiremnent" to cover all of Hermes' shortcomings, the guy slowed down to a crawl when he couldnt outpace Kratos' slow lumbering.

Again, he is not reacting to much at all, Charon moves quickly from one area to another and in gampeplay as Kratos ,you have to slowly lumber after him, who conventiatly like in most gameplay as a boss, stops for you to do so.

Thats Ares feat, not Kratos' and its not necesserily reactions but more senses, the fact he knew Kraots was there and could somehow aim and see him was a godly sense, not reaction considering Kratos was hardly moving.

Originally posted by CosmicComet

Your giving feats of people who are not Kratos, or even the enemies he fights one on one in any way. Ares does not use any reaction feats in the fights, he never fights Artemis afaik and the other Gods/Demis move at peak human speeds in half of his fights with a little bit of "not so impressive" light trickery from Zeus.

Theres no proof the leviathan he reacted to was going as fast as it did earlier though, your making things up here, sure it came in fairly quick but at no major speeds and its not like he didnt know what was going on thanks to Gaia.

What the...so what if hes flying up a chute? hes dodging things as their falling, thats not reaction speed of anything impressive, things are falling down and he moves out of the way.

Again, your overhyping this, he leaps off as you said at a slant straight into Chronos' palm. This is not some impressive leg strength tbh, it was more falling than anything with Chronos doing most of the work.

You could say the same about most if not all GoW fights, human posturing, Kains not trying to blitz or kill anyone, your ignorance on the source shows again. Thats faster than most if not all of Kratos' manouvers though, his lumbering legs wouldnt be able to do that.

laughing

Raziel human level speed? I would like to see a human do something like that, I would like to see Kratos do something like that, hes simply not got the agility. What are you trying to prove exactly? that as long as Kain does not decide to teleport or mist form and attempts to use pure physical movement that a jumping Kratos can keep up with him? laughing

Thats also a demonstration of Kratos' reaction time....he gets knocked down by a slow moving Colossus hand which I could see a mile off, let alone Kratos.

Also Malek just a "fit human" is as daft as saying Hercules is just a "fit human", if anything Malek being able to sock Vorador and react to him from behind is so far better than anything Kratos has done. Infact, all Kratos does is fight people headlong, when he fought posiedon, Zeus, Chronos and pretty much all the demigods he never used any speed or reaction times, he just used brute force. Thats all he is.

But here you are again talking about people who are not Kain, do not have Kains powers and abilities or skills etc.

Originally posted by CosmicComet

Why would Janos develop that? Develop reactions when hes spent eons sitting about guarding the reaver, he does not evolve like Vorador and kains brethren, not even sure you can put Vorador in the same boat as Kain and his sons tbh.

Also play the games, thats not a teleport, its mist form and why wouldnt he be seen? he dodged back a few meters...

I never said BO1 Kain had any speed feats nor that he could Blitz william, Kratos wouldnt be able to blitz william either, only due to lack of feats if wiliam got a hit on Kratos, Kratos would be dead, not just regenerating on blood.

laughing

I dont know whats worse, you argueing with yourself about an actual piece of canon from Umah telling you your wrong OR you posting whats clips of gameplay from different eras of time to try and claim Kain is slow just because in w/e scene A he was seen, or in scene B he did not blitz straight away! The same can be said about most characters, context is relevent.

powerscaling is not a feat nor is it even a logical deduction of reasoning, especially when you cut all context out of scenes, take the best feats from any given entities in the GoW universe then pretend you can splice them together and say "hey look! Kratos has to be quicker because Zeus has to be quicker, because!", it doesnt work like that sorry.

baseless ignorance accusations? what? Thats someone using gameplay mechanics and contextless claims, powerscaling without actual feats for their character and without having even played most of the games were discussing calling me ignorant? youve played one series, and a few games from the other, I have played both bar one game.....and I am the ignorant one? roll eyes (sarcastic)

This forum by default does not see the novel or the comic as canon, youve unlikely seen the pre-release comics of LoK either....

Ill just skip the funny rant, it holds no real arguments and go to the conclusion of your post and my counter to it;

-Representation of your points- Poorly represented, youve created a flowing string of fallacies, including bashing which ruined your points, I am sad to say that you added those trolling in and made yourself pretty much a copy of Terry, Scream and anyone whos made a rant of similiar type and whats funny is, its come not long after I put your argument down, just like all those before.

-Arguments themselves- its a shame I had to pick them apart from bashing and sarcasm and the like, but seriously yuo used mostly old information that you did not understand yourself and used a poor disection of source material. I mean at least when I use youtube vids from games I have not played, I ask questions, I dont post a video of someone doing something then assume on top of that without asking a question. Its like youve tkaen something you dont know about, made your own conclusion and ignored someone who knows everything about it.

-Represenation of yourself- Youve spoken for yourself well enough here and I outlined it above, you just bashed massively, not sure i have ever bashed so much in one post myself, considering I am covered in trolls its a wonder why I havent, probably because I know I would get more than a slap on the wrist. I think youve done yourslef agreat injustice, puting a lot of time into a lot of posts clearly then filled them with things that toppled it all, itsl ike making a brick wall, using weak cement alreayd only to pour water all over it and collapse it at the end of each of your points. You claim of me being not so credible and not taken seriously yet i dont think anyone can be taken seriously saying that when they have just put 5/6 posts worth of effort into me while bashing and trolling at once, showing hypocrisy and using poor sources.....

On the whole I am sorely disapointed, I thought, nay hoped you had put together a good old counter against evidence here but instead youve lowballed things from nothing, used mechanics, used tropes and double standards in the same paragraphs and then at the end of each baited/trolled some more with some degree of arrogance that you blamed me for.....hypocrisy.

The only thing youve managed to prove is that your a represenation of my opposition this forum, you troll me, bash and flame and thats about it, your points are loosely drawn together and you rely on nothing but belittlement to hold it up and as always, I am here to point this out to you, its like your acting as a knight in shining armour which is nice at first against the tyranical BT but you come in, tarnished, covered in mud and without a sword or shield and hope that just cursing at someone is going to prove your points.

Tips on the next trolling rant from anyone, leave out the swearing and name calling and general flameing, calling someone an idiot then breaking all the rules of a forum while trying to apprently sit on your high horse and belate someone you dont like. Oh and add more argument, less sarcasm and fallacies such as the red herring, straw man etc, I guess its too much to ask for better arguments though so ill leave that out.

Oh and shown above, it only took me a few posts to counter all that because when you leave out the trolling and heavy bashing, you dont need to type as much. Good health to all smile

NemeBro

I can't help but notice that your post (Along with being an eyesore to read) consisted of absolutely no evidence at all, only consisting of "No this is wrong," and occasionally providing a useless explanation on why it is supposedly wrong. I also can't help but notice that you spent a large amount of your posts dismissing CC's credibility because he insulted you, which is a fallacy itself. You can't really sidestep Dumah tanking Raziel's attacks with a laugh, and then being impaled by something far less impressive, those are not gameplay mechanics, you continue to show you are incapable of understanding what a gameplay mechanic actually is.

You also did the same thing you have been doing, continuing to cling blindly to the calculations done for Kain, when you barely even acknowledge the calculations done that would make Kain's supposed durability feat less impressive.

Your only truly valid point is that CC used gameplay mechanics to lowball Kain, when the same could be said of Kratos not being able to bust through doors.

Try to reply to posts more coherently, and with arguments that consist of less sidestepping and "No U".

Burning thought

I like how you hypocrtically replied to my post, complaining about things I apprently did while doing it yourself. Also what evidence do I need other than pointing out why his is wrong, if hes claiming something while using evidence, thats not evidence at all then I cant create counter evidence until I agree hes got evidence to suggest something. And Dumah is never impaled, hes burned to death, not being able to damage bosses in a regular manner or just smashing them down is common in games, including GoW, you can only harm the boss in certain ways, this is indeed a mechanic of gameplay true for many bosses.

Define "cling blindly"? It sounds just like a baiting sentence that, the math speaks for itself and is made by generally unbias people unlike those in games vs who dont really know whats what anyway. And theres nothing that makes it less impressive than what it really is.

Thats pretty much all he did though, only really badly and without having any idea of the game hes talking about and using poor comparisons. Hes making all the claims, I made no new claims therefore I needed no new evidence, only to tell him using a random video and adding some sarcastic banter or bashing does not help his case.

Hes lucky he got any counter posts at all and I didnt just ignore his fairly pointless posts.

RE: Blaxican

Man, you guys are nerds.

DukeNuke

WAR SOLO

DukeNuke

I SAID WAR SOLO

NemeBro

Originally posted by Burning thought
I like how you hypocrtically replied to my post, complaining about things I apprently did while doing it yourself.

Prove I did the things I accused you of.

Counter-evidence that refutes it, obviously. Or even just something more than sidestepping it entirely.

CC's posts are riddled with quotations and links to videos. Your post consisted of words.

Oh, and I should point out the flaws in some of your claims, such as claiming that the Leviathans Kratos were fighting for some reason were moving slower than they were in the cutscene.

Yeah no. Kratos is able to injure every boss normally (In every game I have played, anyway), by attacking them, they bleed. This is not the same for Dumah.

Sorry, got Dumah confused with the other vampire, who was also immune to Raziel's claws.

You accept it above others only because it is more impressive.

I'd like to see you prove it, since people who have demonstrated more credibiliy in the area of mathematics seem to disagree.

That's an appeal to motive fallacy, arguing that they are lowballing the math in an effort to make Kain look less impressive, without actually acknowledging the math done itself.

You seem to be under the impression that your grasp of math is better than Shin's and BloodRain's, can you prove this?

I guess if you discount CC's post demonstrating that the size of the claw tips are not what you think they are and that, obviously, since he used two arms to topple the obelisk, all fingers should be counted, not just the ones on one hand.

Wrong.

It's hard to take this seriously when you seem to be under the impression that Kratos is a slow, lumbering brute, meaning you can't of played the games.

Care to point them out?

Wrong. You truly refute someone's point, counter-evidence must be provided, or at least a logical, constructive argument that sufficiently addresses every point wholly. You have provided neither.

If by "random video" you mean evidence to support his claims, then yes, he provided "random videos". Which is more than you can say.

That he bashed you is irrelevant to whether or not his argument is

"No u" is not an argument.

I guess I should speak on this thread.

Kratos uses vastly superior strength and superior speed to cut Kain in half, since one doesn't need to use a calculation to know that Kratos with a bladed weapon is going to be able to produce magnitudes more pressure than Raziel with his claws. As for controlling Kratos' mind, Kratos resisted Ares' mindrape well enough.

CosmicComet

Yep. As expected

Long winded post consisting of nothing but butt-hurt drivel, that did nothing to counter the immense contradictions you've cornered yourself into,
employed lots of 'begging the question'/circular reasoning, claiming I didn't address certain things like their math when I DID specifically, labeling things incorrectly as gameplay mechanics again when all I used was plot, and then conveniently calling something that favors you not gameplay mechanic when it clearly would be by your same definitions for mine. smile

Also. Kratos has broken through walls several times in cutscenes. Him not doing so in the gameplay is clearly the mechanic. On the other hand, Raziel and Kain have never done anything like that in cutscenes and utterly failed at breaking certain things in cutscenes that your calc would imply should be no impediment to them.

Also, fool, its Amy Hennig, not Herrig. I've known that name since I was 10, reading the official playstation magazine, reading interviews with her. But I can't blame you, you clearly aren't as invested in the LoK verse. smile

Amy 'Herrig' said the wraith blade being absorbed heals Kain? Well, who is the Wraith Blade inexorably part of again? smile

NemeBro

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Also. Kratos has broken through walls several times in cutscenes. Him not doing so in the gameplay is clearly the mechanic. On the other hand, Raziel and Kain have never done anything like that in cutscenes and utterly failed at breaking certain things in cutscenes that your calc would imply should be no impediment to them.

Well, if Kratos has indeed broken through walls or doors in cutscenes, and Kain or Raziel have not, then yeah, there's no double standard (I forget if this is true or not, admittedly).

Though, wouldn't Raziel's obelisk tipping kind of contradict being unable to go through a wall, depending on the structure?

CosmicComet

That's the thing. He needed to use the obelisk's fall to break through an obstruction to Dumah's throne room that he otherwise couldn't pass. So one would think it would contradict based on the feat itself, but the implications of it contradicts every other explicit showing and statements (such as statements from the Elder God that I've mentioned.)

NemeBro

Originally posted by CosmicComet
That's the thing. He needed to use the obelisk's fall to break through an obstruction to Dumah's throne room that he otherwise couldn't pass. So one would think it would contradict based on the feat itself, but the implications of it contradicts every other explicit showing and statements (such as statements from the Elder God that I've mentioned.)

Huh.

What?

That doesn't make sense.

Weren't the calculations for that obelisk like 300 friggin' tons?

What was blocking his way?

Burning thought

Originally posted by NemeBro
Prove I did the things I accused you of.

Counter-evidence that refutes it, obviously. Or even just something more than sidestepping it entirely.

CC's posts are riddled with quotations and links to videos. Your post consisted of words.

Oh, and I should point out the flaws in some of your claims, such as claiming that the Leviathans Kratos were fighting for some reason were moving slower than they were in the cutscene.

Yeah no. Kratos is able to injure every boss normally (In every game I have played, anyway), by attacking them, they bleed. This is not the same for Dumah.

Sorry, got Dumah confused with the other vampire, who was also immune to Raziel's claws.

You accept it above others only because it is more impressive.

I'd like to see you prove it, since people who have demonstrated more credibiliy in the area of mathematics seem to disagree.

That's an appeal to motive fallacy, arguing that they are lowballing the math in an effort to make Kain look less impressive, without actually acknowledging the math done itself.

You seem to be under the impression that your grasp of math is better than Shin's and BloodRain's, can you prove this?

I guess if you discount CC's post demonstrating that the size of the claw tips are not what you think they are and that, obviously, since he used two arms to topple the obelisk, all fingers should be counted, not just the ones on one hand.

Wrong.

It's hard to take this seriously when you seem to be under the impression that Kratos is a slow, lumbering brute, meaning you can't of played the games.

Care to point them out?

Wrong. You truly refute someone's point, counter-evidence must be provided, or at least a logical, constructive argument that sufficiently addresses every point wholly. You have provided neither.

If by "random video" you mean evidence to support his claims, then yes, he provided "random videos". Which is more than you can say.

That he bashed you is irrelevant to whether or not his argument is

"No u" is not an argument.

I guess I should speak on this thread.

Kratos uses vastly superior strength and superior speed to cut Kain in half, since one doesn't need to use a calculation to know that Kratos with a bladed weapon is going to be able to produce magnitudes more pressure than Raziel with his claws. As for controlling Kratos' mind, Kratos resisted Ares' mindrape well enough.

Your doing it now, your claiming things and pretty much using "no u" reasoning to say I was wrong.

You dont use counter evidence to refute something thats not evidence, nor to refute a baseless claim.

They were, mostly things that had no basis on what he was trying to prove, like how apprently Kain being seen moving 2 meters in mist form and being seen by the guards as he appears/transforms means hes slow....theres a lot of things that dont really mean anything assuming you can find them beneath the bashing.

He cant defeat most bosses without following a specific set of events, half the time he cant break the skin until hes "weakened" it and a circle appears above its head, their just different ways of a boss battle, still all mechanics. Saying that Raziel cant just slash every vampire to death in the gameplay therefore hes not that strong is pointless.

No, I have said why I accept it above others, the source is unbias and better informed on the subject. Also I am using math thats just as proven as anyone elses.

More under the impression neither of them know LoK, I am also under the impression M and D being unbias are a better source, not sure where I said i was better at math although some of the things they come out with make no sense.

Although I did acknowledge the math, I just pointed out the fact its also a lowball.

He made measurements the same as anyone else, that came to a few extra millimeters at best.

Also as for the rest, its a "no u" argument from you here as well, only the difference is your making new claims, I was not. Also if you think he made some really good, evidence full claims then quote one, seems to me your just choosing the guy you would rather back, youve yet to actually point out reason or why.

Also if you want to argue it, you made the claim for Superior speed, maybe you can do a better job than cosmic.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Yep. As expected

Long winded post consisting of nothing but butt-hurt drivel, that did nothing to counter the immense contradictions you've cornered yourself into,
employed lots of 'begging the question'/circular reasoning, claiming I didn't address certain things like their math when I DID specifically, labeling things incorrectly as gameplay mechanics again when all I used was plot, and then conveniently calling something that favors you not gameplay mechanic when it clearly would be by your same definitions for mine. smile

Amy 'Herrig' said the wraith blade being absorbed heals Kain? Well, who is the Wraith Blade inexorably part of again? smile

If the insults bother you so much, just ignore them. They don't invalidate anything, that was me simply having fun at your expense.

Unfortunately for you, everything I stated on my side, has actually happened. You are still clinging to math that was invalidated many times over.

Go argue Kain vs Pre-Recton Beyonder somewhere. I know you've seriously made an attempt at it before. Maybe you'll succeed this time?

nothing worth replying to here apart from maybe the fact you think just because Kratos has broken through a wall, thats the only reason we know he can? physically, both Raziel and Kain could do so based on their canon feats.

The wraith blade being "part" of Raziel in a sense, bonded to his arm has no comparison to the fact Kain just absorbs it to heal, nothing to do with Raziel being absorbed into the reaver.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by NemeBro
Huh.

What?

That doesn't make sense.

Weren't the calculations for that obelisk like 300 friggin' tons?

What was blocking his way?

It was either a tall door or some thick gate. My memory escapes me at the moment.

The point is, you would think these wouldn't be an impediment if you looked at the implications of that one feat itself, but its implications do not carry the same weight as explicit feats and statements--hence the point of addressing what the math means, that's an implication of it as well and it clearly does not stand.

Burning thought

It was a couple of metal gates/barred walls.

And no, you wouldnt think that because its a game with puzzles, the same reason I dont think Kratos must be weak because hes not just punching through every surface he comes across and instead, on several occasions goes through even longer stretches of what boils down to puzzle solving to pass an area he could physically pass with ease.

Gameplay mechanics are a no go.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by NemeBro
Huh.

What?

That doesn't make sense.

Weren't the calculations for that obelisk like 300 friggin' tons?

What was blocking his way?

A sturdy enough construction can support the strength required to topple a 300 ton pencil. stick out tongue

Raziel never lifted it's full weight to begin with.

CosmicComet

To sum up;

videos of Kain/Raziel busting through a sturdy wall with their strength? count: 0

videos and statements of Kain/Raziel FAILING to bust through less? count: many.

You lose, hombre.

Burning thought

Well ive yet to see a video of Kratos just busting through a wall but are you saying you would never claim he could possibly bust a wall of any kind unless hes done it? throw his feats against the Gods out of the window because hes not forced down a wall and has to open levers in gameplay? thats what your doing for this argument here. The obelisk is heavier than any wall or door they typically come across and Raziel deals with it with ease.

Also you dont have any videos or statements of them failing to bust anything that they have actually attempted to do so.

Seems logic has gone walkies here.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Burning thought
Also you dont have any videos or statements of them failing to bust anything that they have actually attempted to do so.

He couldn't kick open a locked door.

Will answer your post when I am done with dinner.

CosmicComet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slZUOMuHqck 3:57. Just one of the examples off the top of my head. Deimos, Kratos' weaker full blooded brother, tackles Kratos through a thick barrier. There was another one in GoW2 somewhere.

And negatory. They tried. And then there were self-statements and exterior character statements that established their limits, afterall, they would know their own limits better than you do yes? It's simply the fact that these limits establish them as billions of times less than what you are wanting their limits to be.

And indeed, I'm glad you acknowledge that you are letting logic take a walk here. That's the first step.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Burning thought
Your doing it now, your claiming things and pretty much using "no u" reasoning to say I was wrong.

I don't think he needs to post evidence when your post is on the same page and indeed is the post directly proceeding his. He doesn't really need to post specific examples of your argument sidestepping issues and being generally shit since we can see that just by scrolling up.

BloodRain

The **** is the topic now?

----------------------------------------------

Kratos: Physically strongest in the room, high reactions, some resistance to mind/soul ****ery, can manipulate fire.

Dante: Fastest in the room, second strongest, some hax abilities/weapons, some resistance to mind/soul ****ery, can manipulate hell fire.

Mercer: Third strongest, second fastest , regen, no soul to ****, too many minds to rape.

War: Weakest /tied third strongest , fourth fastest, some mind resistance, can manipulate fire.

Kain/Raziel: Tied fourth strongest, slowest, most abilities countered by above.

The pair are the slowest, weakest (If War is in Chaos mode) and weak to the flames 3/4 characters carry. And besides having their soul/mind abilities most likely failing to the opponents that have some kind of resistance, it also takes a second to activate and has a very limited range. So either no one will be in range, anyone can interrupt in that one second activation time given all of their speed to cross its range before it starts or they wont be effected by it.

War is a mild challenge, Mercer could rival them, Kratos/Dante could solo.

-----------------------------------------------------

BT's still finds a way to insult my calcs and call bias even in another persons topic >__> Step off bro.

Burning thought

Originally posted by CosmicComet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slZUOMuHqck 3:57. Just one of the examples off the top of my head. Deimos, Kratos' weaker full blooded brother, tackles Kratos through a thick barrier. There was another one in GoW2 somewhere.

And negatory. They tried. And then there were self-statements and exterior character statements that established their limits, afterall, they would know their own limits better than you do yes? It's simply the fact that these limits establish them as billions of times less than what you are wanting their limits to be.

And indeed, I'm glad you acknowledge that you are letting logic take a walk here. That's the first step.

So Kratos didnt do it then? So you even fell in your own illogical case.

No, theres no exterior or self statements, youve made your own illogical deductions on what was said and you use powerscaling which is illoigcal as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think he needs to post evidence when your post is on the same page and indeed is the post directly proceeding his. He doesn't really need to post specific examples of your argument sidestepping issues and being generally shit since we can see that just by scrolling up.

More trolling, as usual.

Originally posted by NemeBro
He couldn't kick open a locked door.

Will answer your post when I am done with dinner.

Where? Show me.

And as for you BR, its a nice little overview but it doesnt hold much content tbh, I could do the same.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Burning thought
More trolling, as usual.

More dodging the point by attacking your opponent rather than what they said? Kudos for proving Neme's point bro! thumb up

Burning thought

Apprently pointing out trolling has become attacking now? yes, thats what your doing, attacking your opponent rather than arguments.

Nephthys

No, I think I called your argument shit, not you yourself. And other than that I was not directly attacking your argument, merely making an observation to do with Nemebro's.

Burning thought

Which is trolling, if you called me shit you would be directly flameing like our friend cosmic.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by Burning thought
So Kratos didnt do it then? So you even fell in your own illogical case.

No, theres no exterior or self statements, youve made your own illogical deductions on what was said and you use powerscaling which is illoigcal as well.

You're really, really, reaching far now. Almost Dhalsim like. Pretty impressive. I guess Kain can't flip over the obelisk, since he didn't do it. All he did was overpower Raziel. (Afterall, you DID say 'powerscaling isn't a feat', so let's not conveniently forget your own words again BT.) And all Kratos did was tank the attacks and overpower the being (Thanatos) that manhandled and killed his brother. : ( There were other examples, as I said, but I'm not going to continue to dig through more videos for you, who, brings absolutely nothing to the table in return. I've brought more than enough evidence.

Nah. There most certainly is. You just have nothing to say directly about them, but attempt various combination of terms to handwave. It's not working. You're done.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Burning thought
Which is trolling, if you called me shit you would be directly flameing like our friend cosmic.

Your definition of trolling must vary quite differently from mine.

That said, I assure that I was not in fact trolling.

BloodRain

Welly welly welly well, unless you have somethin in that bag O tricks that says:

A. Raz' streangth (1.87e6N) is not actually between War (punching a 20 ton train car 50m/s, 9e5N) and Chaos War/Mercer (throwing 100 ton tanks 100m/s, 9e6N) but far above.

B. Kain's speed (20m/s iirc) is not below War's 'faster than the eye can see' (*shrugs* obd) and Mercer (100m/s) but actually faster.

C. That all of the four characters mental and soul defence would be instantly ineffective.

D: Or how all of their fire/fire+ wouldnt destroy a vamp thats either weak or has no resistance to flames.

That or theyll be the weakest, slowest, have ineffective powers and burnt to ashes.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by BloodRain
The **** is the topic now?

----------------------------------------------

Kratos: Physically strongest in the room, high reactions, some resistance to mind/soul ****ery, can manipulate fire.

Dante: Fastest in the room, second strongest, some hax abilities/weapons, some resistance to mind/soul ****ery, can manipulate hell fire.

Mercer: Third strongest, second fastest , regen, no soul to ****, too many minds to rape.

War: Weakest /tied third strongest , fourth fastest, some mind resistance, can manipulate fire.

Kain/Raziel: Tied fourth strongest, slowest, most abilities countered by above.

The pair are the slowest, weakest (If War is in Chaos mode) and weak to the flames 3/4 characters carry. And besides having their soul/mind abilities most likely failing to the opponents that have some kind of resistance, it also takes a second to activate and has a very limited range. So either no one will be in range, anyone can interrupt in that one second activation time given all of their speed to cross its range before it starts or they wont be effected by it.

War is a mild challenge, Mercer could rival them, Kratos/Dante could solo.

-----------------------------------------------------

BT's still finds a way to insult my calcs and call bias even in another persons topic >__> Step off bro.

Hey, Kratos has hax abilities/weapons too ya know. uhuh

Also, what's up with the colour-coding? It doesn't make your superior to the posts from the rest of us. uhuh

BloodRain

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Hey, Kratos has hax abilities/weapons too ya know. uhuh

Also, what's up with the colour-coding? It doesn't make your superior to the posts from the rest of us. uhuh

Not much , only the soul chains and making people stoned.

Dunno, easier to read? And you know damn well that thats exactly what it means. Taste the rainbow, *****. uhuh

NemeBro

Originally posted by Burning thought
Your doing it now, your claiming things and pretty much using "no u" reasoning to say I was wrong.

Yeah... No. I'm actually pointing out the flaws in your reasoning without actually making "claims" of my own, I am largely only pointing out the many failings of your post.

CC posted evidence and based his claims off of them.

Therefore, his claims are not baseless, and have evidence to back them.

Even if faulty reasoning was used to make his deductions (Which as far as I can tell is not true), his post is still the more credible because, you know, posted a shit-ton of evidence.

Wow, you can cherry pick a single video that may be being used as evidence via faulty reasoning, that doesn't mean that invalidates the plethora of other showcases of a lack of speed for Kain and other vampires.

Which bosses are you referring to? Even ****ers like Cronos in gameplay is visibly cut by Kratos' attacks in gameplay. But that's irrelevant.

Nope, with Dumah and guy who has a name I forget have explicit lines/whatever to show that Raziel is incapable of injuring them, and they have to be taken out in other ways.

That's not a gameplay mechanic.

Appeal to motive, once more.

How would you know?

I doubt they even really cared about the math to any signifigant extent.

Not sure what you even mean by this.

Irrelevant to the topic at hand, stop attacking their character as some justification for why you attack their math. Have some class.

You can bust out the appeal to motive fallacies like no one BT, I am impressed.

Care to prove you have the knowledge to criticise their math?

Saying "The math is biased and lowballing" isn't acknowledging the math, it is a statement that you provided no evidence nor reasoning behind. You didn't even acknowledge the inherent flaw in the calculation, a pretty glaring one, namely that the figures you used implied that Raziel used one hand to tip the obelisk. He clearly didn't.

Oh, and CC actually illustrated where the calculations you used ****ed up in the conversions to tons per square inch. Just to see if CC was correct, I used the converter to convert 1,321,140.78 bars to tons per square inch. And reached about 9.5 thousand tons per square inch. Which matches perfectly with CC's math.

Whoa.

One claw tip according to CC is bigger than what you had listed for two claw tips. So... A fairly noticeable difference.

Point out the new claims I have made?

I've logically deconstructed your argument and pointed out the various faulty segments, as well as calling you on your complete dodging of a signifigant chunk of CC's post.

Also, even if I am guilty of the same thing as you (I'm not), that does not invalidate your utterly insufficient reply to him or his points.

I actually have been, if you were paying attention.

I did in this post by pointing out that dadudemon and Morridini did **** up on the conversions according to the converter CC supplied (I have no ill will against them for this, everyone makes mistakes), in this post for example.

Also, there are the various instances of Kain being shown to be not particularly fast, certainly not as fast as Kratos, and showings of Kain and Raziel being impeded by relatively mundane obstacles, including apparently some iron gates, that Raziel needed to tip an obelisk to break.

Really, I was hoping you'd either concede like an adult, or at least try to respond to his post like one, but you just evaded, sidestepped, and attacked the character of various people, even ones who had not posted to you, to patch up the numerous flaws in your argument. Have some class.

He blocked the Leviathan, for one.

VsTY5EL6OUc

3:00-3:10 shows some impressive running speed and agility, despite being on an uneven and unbalanced surface.

Also, another interesting thing to note is that at 3:30, Gaia attempts to punch Poseidon, but her fist is easily stopped by a single Leviathan, which are things Kratos has overpowered. Just another strength feat. Also another one that shows Kratos having sufficient strength to overpower the arm of a Titan, something you implied earlier was a one-off occurrence. Which is rather silly, since he stopped Atlas from crushing him between his fingers in GoW2.

Now check 3:45. Kratos, with use of his chain blades, makes many acrobatic and skillful leaps through mid-air, moving at speeds Kain has never demonstrated.

Now check 4:00 in, when Kratos reacts when Gaia's fist connects with Poseidon (Seemingly making a sonic boom), leaps through Poseidon's shell, grabs Poseidon, and then when he lands on that cliff has the reaction-time to roll while throwing Poseidon against the side of the mountain. A solid reaction feat.

Then there is this:

a8eODja0Ifw

This is really just one long agility/reactions/speed feat for Kratos.

Kratos and Zeus are physically about on par, this is pretty obvious. Only Zeus can also teleport and turn intangible by turning into lightning. So Kratos beat a guy who is faster than Kain, can teleport, and turn intangible. All like Kain.

Kain has nothing to compare to Kratos' speed, reaction-time, and agility feats.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by BloodRain
Not much , only the soul chains and making people stoned.

Dunno, easier to read? And you know damn well that thats exactly what it means. Taste the rainbow, *****. uhuh

+ Summoning invulnerable souls, time manip (limited with amulet, expanded with Loom), infinite spear toss (awesome), artifact with RG abilities (minus Dreadnaught and Ultimate), Light Manip...that's all I can remember right now.
Point is, he has some, not as many as Dante, but some uhuh

Neg, it just means that yer an attention whore. uhuh

BloodRain

He has time manip outside the chamber? O.o how come no one brought it up before? Admittedly unlimate spear works is pretty hax. mmm

Correction, an attention whore who just got your attention 131 /success

NemeBro

I was not aware he had time manipulation outside the Loom Chamber.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by BloodRain
He has time manip outside the chamber? O.o how come no one brought it up before? Admittedly unlimate spear works is pretty hax. mmm

Correction, an attention whore who just got your attention 131 /success

He first went to fight Zeus in his past. After returning to the Loom in the present, he went back to the far past, and sent a bunch of Titans and himself to Mt. Olympus. So yeah, he doesn't have to physically be in the Chamber itself to manip time.

Successful Attention whores are the worst. uhuh

Burning thought

Originally posted by CosmicComet

Well it was your illogical claim, you claimed just because they did not smash a wall in a cutscene that they simply could not, you then said Kratos' brother smashed him through a wall....which is nothing comparable. So what you said was pretty poor as evidence, adding in things like "well kratos then overpowered something thats stronger than his brother" is the same as me saying "Kain overpowers Raziel" who can. Youve not brought much real evidence tbh, your best bet was using stuff from the game but youve shown me tombs cracking and door tapping.

Erm, no, I am never done smile

also, you do realise arguments dont work this way. You dont just claim "I am superior lol!" and then you win, you make me agree with you, hence why bashing in your post does indeed affect how credible your arguments may seem.

Originally posted by NemeBro

Which is what i did in his.

Also if posting vague videos, and about what, 10 of them? half of them not showing what hes claiming is a shit ton of evidence then your easily impressed. Ofc, I would say bias, you probably would not even have to even read his posts through or mine to come to that conclusion.

The showcases as you call them are all just as bad, I can probably name any one of them, and I like how you added "other vampires", their not kain, therefore useless.

All of them, infact Chronos is one those who can be cut or damaged in various areas, but even Chronos can only be cut in certain areas, Kratos cant just tear into his arm and dig his way up his shoulder into his throat.

What lines? just laughter when you hit them? thats neither canon nor anything other than a mechanic, as I said, its a mechanic to have to defeat bosses a specific way, its been that way for games for a long time.

Where did I calculate that Raziel used one hand ot tip the obelisk?

Also how does conversion to tons per square inch factor in? I use plain old bars to give my pressures, and I didnt again, do the calculations the second time round.

Well "according to CC", as I said hes done no more than anyone to calculate the claw tip. Showing some blurred images of it doesnt really matter, he also calculated it as a cone, the cone of which does not penetrate Kain at all, only the very tip, so were probabl using SA's bigger than what did actually touch Kain.

Also you could probably make large lists of the things that would make the feat even better for Kain.

Your making claims against the person, ad hominem mostly. And your doing exactly what I did to him, to me, adding a bit of the same trolling as usual such as "well youve done as well! because I said so!".

So his post is great because hes pointed out some conversions are different which doesnt really affect much at all, and showed that the gameplay in LoK requires you to, like every game out there including GoW, move certain things or pull certain levers effectively to move around? wow, I think I may well concede to such evidence.....concede my faith that someones going to make a decent counter post.

The Titan grabbing thing is more or less a one off occurance and him stopping a leviathan in one scene is not comparable to it stopping Gaia, its almost like you assume all things are moving at exactly the same speeds and using exactly the same power in all situations, when Kratos stops the leviathan it doesnt use enough force to damage the floor or area around Kratos with its pressure. Oh, and onto the speed, I knew you would bring that up, Kratos has no litte rings or surfaces in this match to hold onto, so really this is just his strength again.

Also how is that a feat for Kratos? Gaia did most of that work and power, Kratos used the momentum and at the end, tossed Poseidon under his own steam, theres no major reaction feat. Whats Kratos reacting to in your opinion?

"Kratos beat a guy" is not the same as "Kratos beat Kain", Kain doesnt have to run up close and personal to destroy Kratos, he can use teleportation and intangbility to better use to avoid Kratos which is Zeus' failure here. Kratos is going to be in the same position with Kain as he was with Zeus at the end of GoW 2, only Kains not going to be fooled by any tricks and is just going to finish Kratos off.

In conclusion though you did a lot, lot better here than CC and used real evidence, not your own ambigious assumptions on what is not evidence.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Welly welly welly well, unless you have somethin in that bag O tricks that says:

A. Raz' streangth (1.87e6N) is not actually between War (punching a 20 ton train car 50m/s, 9e5N) and Chaos War/Mercer (throwing 100 ton tanks 100m/s, 9e6N) but far above.

B. Kain's speed (20m/s iirc) is not below War's 'faster than the eye can see' (*shrugs* obd) and Mercer (100m/s) but actually faster.

C. That all of the four characters mental and soul defence would be instantly ineffective.

D: Or how all of their fire/fire+ wouldnt destroy a vamp thats either weak or has no resistance to flames.

That or theyll be the weakest, slowest, have ineffective powers and burnt to ashes.

mercer does not move at 100m/s though, I dont know what evidence suggests that, having played the game he moves close to about 100 mph at best.

All 4 characters have no mental or soul resistance though, none of them have had anyone try and overrule their mind, theyve had people influencing it but thats about it, same with the soul defences, your making things up here.

Considering thanks to teleport most of these characters wont be able to even touch Kain the fire is irrelevent. Although bringing those up, sort of just compares to what i can say to the team, theyll die to pretty much any technique Kain uses and only Kratos can destroy Kain physcially.

NemeBro

Yeah... When you want to actually properly quote my post so I don't have to figure out what you are even responding to, I might respond.

Until then, I'll just answer the things regarding this thread.

I guess it is a one-off occurrence if you ignore him resisting no less than two Titans, and then overpowering something that overpowered a Titan.

Yeah, and when Poseidon was slammed against said same stones of Mount Olympus, after being propelled by Kratos + Gaia's fist, Poseidon didn't break through the stone either. It has been shown that Olympian Stone is more durable than normal stone.

Are you under the impression that the Leviathan was going easy on Kratos? He reacted to and overpowered its sneak attack, it is idiotic to assume that it was for some asinine reason going easy on him.

I mean shit, by that logic I guess Raziel was going easy on Kain when he clawed his chest, after all, his Earth pressure claws didn't knock him back signifigantly at all, did it?

You're completely ignoring the reaction-time and agility necessary for that feat, don't be ignorant. If you think he accomplished those quick, acrobatic leaps with just strength, you're an idiot.

He reacted to speeding towards the cliffside, rolled, and threw Poseidon. That is a reaction-time feat, and far better than any reaction feat Kain has.

And do tell what Kain will do to Kratos from a distance to even inconvenience him? Ignoring that Kratos does in fact have ranged options himself, and has demonstrated far superior leg speed.

BloodRain

Mercer can outrun Apache and Blackhawks, both can only get to 200mph or 90m/s. And he can throw things as fast as he can run. Even if you wanted to ignore this he still easily out runs cars like the taxi cab, 120 mph or 54m/s. Nearly halves his strength feat to 4.898e6N... but then again he does have Muscle Mass to double his strength.

Saw someone say how War has a mask that lets him break any illusion, so thats iffy. Mercer has the mind of each person he's consumed inside him, too many to get the real one. And he doesnt actually have a brain or a soul.. being a virus posing as a human and all. Besides the Haywire Neo Generator, Dante has one via Vergil, who broke out of a 100% mind/body/soul puppet control by Mundas. That was Vergil with a broken down mind, Dante's mind is in tip-top condition here. Kratos has the thing mentioned by some guy above and soul resistance shown against Hades.

Lets see.. it takes Kain 0.2+ seconds to activate that teleport right? A 54m/s Mercer could reach him before he disappears from 10m away. A 'Mach 1' Dante could reach him from 68m away. By he teleports.. and then what? He'll have to appear to do anything and given the characters supersonic and hypersonic reactions, hows Kain going to stay long enough to do anything? Kratos and Dante have faced and stomped faster beings/faster teleporters before. What makes the slower Kain so special?

Nope. Physically he's too weak to inflict damage on any of them and wont be able to stand still long enough to do any of his 3 useful powers. Mercer could inflict damage. War can burn him. Kratos and Dante will still solo. Quicksilver+Ifrit=No counter.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by BloodRain

Saw someone say how War has a mask that lets him break any illusion, so thats iffy. Mercer has the mind of each person he's consumed inside him, too many to get the real one. And he doesnt actually have a brain or a soul.. being a virus posing as a human and all. Besides the Haywire Neo Generator, Dante has one via Vergil, who broke out of a 100% mind/body/soul puppet control by Mundas. That was Vergil with a broken down mind, Dante's mind is in tip-top condition here. Kratos has the thing mentioned by some guy above and soul resistance shown against Hades.

Dunno if the Mask of Shadows specifically breaks illusions, since it lets War look into another plane.
And of course, the War we have in Darksiders is a shadow when compared to War as a Horseman of the Apocalypse.

Vergil needed the sight of the amulet or something to break out iirc. But that's moot, seeing as Mundus had to brainwash him to get him to that state. Highly highly doubt Kain could do something like that to Dante.

Kratos has also resisted Siren calls, and I believe they employ some form of mental manipulation.

NemeBro

Everyone here (Except maybe War, haven't played Darksiders) has shown physical strength greater than Kain, and has bladed weaponry regardless (Some, like Kratos, Dante, and War, magic bladed weaponry).

Is BT really under the impression that Kain is stronger than all but Kratos/Only Kratos can hurt him?

BloodRain

@DP: Yeah, forgot he was weakened during the game. Turns out the Mask only allows him to see/see through visual illusions and genjutsus..

A brief stimulas to overrule 10 years complete puppetry is a fair deal. And whats the one for Kratos that was said in this thread?

I think Kain's charm (...Charm?) will need control feats.

@Neme: War's half as strong as Kain but his Chaos form would be above.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by BloodRain
@DP: Yeah, forgot he was weakened during the game. Turns out the Mask only allows him to see/see through visual illusions and genjutsus..

A brief stimulas to overrule 10 years complete puppetry is a fair deal. And whats the one for Kratos that was said in this thread?

I think Kain's charm (...Charm?) will need control feats.

@Neme: War's half as strong as Kain but his Chaos form would be above.

More or less. Basically allows him to see stuff that isn't present in the physical realm.

I suppose it is. Still, the stimulus in question would be powerful.
I think the time he resisted Ares' attempts at breaking his will. Or him partially resisting Zeus' mind-rape.

BloodRain

Only if Dante gets into the same condition Verg was. Does fiction-strong will power count for anything?

Riight. Hard to remember much of his feats that dont involve smashing and breaking things..

Burning thought

Originally posted by BloodRain
Mercer can outrun Apache and Blackhawks, both can only get to 200mph or 90m/s. And he can throw things as fast as he can run. Even if you wanted to ignore this he still easily out runs cars like the taxi cab, 120 mph or 54m/s. Nearly halves his strength feat to 4.898e6N... but then again he does have Muscle Mass to double his strength.

Saw someone say how War has a mask that lets him break any illusion, so thats iffy. Mercer has the mind of each person he's consumed inside him, too many to get the real one. And he doesnt actually have a brain or a soul.. being a virus posing as a human and all. Besides the Haywire Neo Generator, Dante has one via Vergil, who broke out of a 100% mind/body/soul puppet control by Mundas. That was Vergil with a broken down mind, Dante's mind is in tip-top condition here. Kratos has the thing mentioned by some guy above and soul resistance shown against Hades.

Lets see.. it takes Kain 0.2+ seconds to activate that teleport right? A 54m/s Mercer could reach him before he disappears from 10m away. A 'Mach 1' Dante could reach him from 68m away. By he teleports.. and then what? He'll have to appear to do anything and given the characters supersonic and hypersonic reactions, hows Kain going to stay long enough to do anything? Kratos and Dante have faced and stomped faster beings/faster teleporters before. What makes the slower Kain so special?

Nope. Physically he's too weak to inflict damage on any of them and wont be able to stand still long enough to do any of his 3 useful powers. Mercer could inflict damage. War can burn him. Kratos and Dante will still solo. Quicksilver+Ifrit=No counter.

Both can but you can never prove Apaches would move at 200 mph through the city. Your taking everything out of context, your taking max speeds of vehicles then claiming just because Alex mercer in certain situations can outrun them or catch up to them hes moving at their max speed....this is faulty reasoning.

Yes he does, he has one mind. He absorbs the knowledge of every person hes ever become but he still thinks for himself. As for the soul part, thats arguable as well, he is still a living entity, and so would have some sort of life essence imo, but this is more debatable.

Dante doesnt have one, vergil has one but thats arguable. Theres no puppeteering or mind control imo, more corruption again, some people struggle with the difference.

Kratos as I said has no mind resistance, he actually has a fairly weak will because their powers of suggestion can still gratly trouble his mind even though he does eventually succeed, this is nothing compared to puppeteering. As for the soul thing, he physically overpowered Hades soul rip which consists of using hooks to physically pull the soul out, Kain does everything on the spiritual level that Kratos cannot grasp or touch.

Roughply, but Kains reacting first, as per the teleport he can react and create concious action in the same time it takes a person to form stimulai to already active sound and movement, kain comes into the world from teleport at a total blank and does everything at once. Also nobody has supersonic/hypersonic reactions, especially Mercer or War....and i dont belive the whole "Kratos can react to lightning!" nonsense, and ive seen not much more than aim dodging from Dante, none of them have precog which means any teleport Kain uses, which is fairly silent means he can be anywhere around them, possibly with a time distortion field up to strike.

ifrit iirc has done nothing but carve stone and none of them have feats to suggest hes too physically weak to harm them, wtf? The only one up for question is Kratos but tbh, even the Chronos feat is going to be hard pressed to give him planet core pressure resistance, assuming he was hit fully and his strength did not reduce most of the power. As it goes, Dantes the only one who can get to Kain, and ifrit cuts through a stone block as its best feat iirc, or was that lucifer? similiar weapons. Quicksilver only lasts for so long and drains his energy and his power and attack is little, all Kain would really have to do is mist form and Dantes quicksilver is wasted. Or teleport a couple of times, Kain can quite easily create a vast distance between him and his enemies and then just use mind fvuckery, time powers and teleportation to mess them up pretty easily.

And TK, Dante cant run if his feet are not on the ground, neither can any of them. The only one who has a chance againsint Kains TK/blood control powers would be Mercer, who does not seem to have blood of a specific kind and who can change his shape.

And Kratos did not resist Zeus' mind rape either. Its not really a mind rape, again he uses suggestion, he makes Kratos lose all hope and seems to drop him into an astral plane and hes saved by the power of Hope....against evil of the great war from inside the box, so its splot specific and would not mean anything to Kain.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Yeah... When you want to actually properly quote my post so I don't have to figure out what you are even responding to, I might respond.

Until then, I'll just answer the things regarding this thread.

I guess it is a one-off occurrence if you ignore him resisting no less than two Titans, and then overpowering something that overpowered a Titan.

Yeah, and when Poseidon was slammed against said same stones of Mount Olympus, after being propelled by Kratos + Gaia's fist, Poseidon didn't break through the stone either. It has been shown that Olympian Stone is more durable than normal stone.

Are you under the impression that the Leviathan was going easy on Kratos? He reacted to and overpowered its sneak attack, it is idiotic to assume that it was for some asinine reason going easy on him.

I mean shit, by that logic I guess Raziel was going easy on Kain when he clawed his chest, after all, his Earth pressure claws didn't knock him back signifigantly at all, did it?

You're completely ignoring the reaction-time and agility necessary for that feat, don't be ignorant. If you think he accomplished those quick, acrobatic leaps with just strength, you're an idiot.

He reacted to speeding towards the cliffside, rolled, and threw Poseidon. That is a reaction-time feat, and far better than any reaction feat Kain has.

And do tell what Kain will do to Kratos from a distance to even inconvenience him? Ignoring that Kratos does in fact have ranged options himself, and has demonstrated far superior leg speed.

I thought you would give up defending the guy.

I dont agree with the Atlas thing, nor am I the only one, atlas never tried to kill Kratos and as iu said, the leviathan hardly used any power due to its damage ot the area by comparison.

Theres plenty of damage to the environments on Olympus, you cant claim every piece of stone on the mountain is some sort of special stone, Poseidon was just tossed, its not like Kratos pushed him into the rock and failed to do any damage.

The Leviathan was not using the same force, and Poeisdon was not using the same effort against Kratos as he did against Gaia, thats common sense for one because only one leviathan is present you also dont know how fast the leviathan was moving, as you said it was just a sneak attack, it didnt move as far in distance, speed etc as the one that attacked Gaia, at least not that we know.

No because thats in a small area, the leviathan is huge as are its claws...also skin is ellastic and absorbs energy like that from small hits and Raziel was not pushing into Kain like the Leviathan was to Kratos, nor did Kain try and push back.

Agility? thats not reactions tbh, thats him grabbing onto one, then the other, what agility is that? ill give you, he has good aim and precision to do so quickly but hes essentially launching his large ass chains out to loop in a hole and pull himself...how is that helping him here?

He was speeding towards a cliffside, he didnt react to it, he didnt move in mid flight and dodge the cliffside....all he did was roll.

Lets see, a long list of magic powers from freezing completly in time to draining him dry of blood to taking his soul, Kratos has no resistance to any of these things, TK woudl work as well, just hold him in the air, then he has no anchor to run. Also dont make me laugh, leg speed, youve proven one scene that if given rings he can be quicker than Kain but run quicker than Kain? whens he done this?

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by BloodRain
Only if Dante gets into the same condition Verg was. Does fiction-strong will power count for anything?

Riight. Hard to remember much of his feats that dont involve smashing and breaking things..

Well, there are a couple of will-power based characters that could give someone like Superman a run for his money. vin

Eh, I suppose. Much like Dante's calling card is apparently speed, Kratos' is strength apparently.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Burning thought
I thought you would give up defending the guy.

"Defending" him? You seem to be under the impression that he needs defending from you. What you say or how you feel carries absolutely no weight here, I was merely exposing you for the faux-intellectual coward you are. smile

Burning thought

Originally posted by NemeBro
"Defending" him? You seem to be under the impression that he needs defending from you. What you say or how you feel carries absolutely no weight here, I was merely exposing you for the faux-intellectual coward you are. smile

Don't care.

Speculation.

Speculation.

Not really.

It obviously is.

Normal stone would have been shattered by Poseidon's body thrown by Kratos. Like how normal stone was pulverised when a normal human was thrown by that chick whose name I forget in Ghost of Sparta (Which is another feat for Kratos' reactions that CC posted).

That's retarded, prove it.

Most of this is irrelevant. Prove that Poseidon for some retarded reason was going easy on Kratos.

Pretty much irrelevant really, if you honestly want to argue real physics in a game setting, Kain and Raziel should send eachother flying at least a dozen meters or so with each attack, based on strength feats. I guess they don't count. Or maybe every time they hit eachother they are going easy on one another! Yes, that is definitely it.

So what you are saying is that Raziel's blows can not signifigantly push back a Kain that is not trying to push back? Good to know.

Yes, it is. He was moving at speeds faster than Kain has been shown managing (Seriously, provide a feat that shows him being faster than a peak human) and performing complex maneuvers with little warning and with little time to do so, reaction-time.

He can launch his large ass chains quickly to cut Kain's head off?

Also, glad to hear you agree with me, that to have such good aim and precision to do such maneuvers so quickly makes him fast.

Jump off of a highway and onto a moving truck, tell me if you are able to roll when you land.

No, that requires him to react, reaction-time is used to make movements before something can affect you, which he did, he rolled and threw Poseidon when he hit the cliff-side. A much better feat than Kain's.

Won't hit.

Can't get past Kratos' durability.

Hades tried and failed.

He does.

TK didn't help Ares or Zeus that much, did it?

Show me Kain running quick at all.

3:00 in on the first video I posted, a much better feat of leg quickness than Kain has ever shown.

Show me Kain running very fast. Seriously, do it, you demand for proof all the time, for once shut up and provide the evidence yourself.

Edit: Really, I'm not sure why I bother responding at all to you.

"I'VE ONLY SEEN DANTE AIMDODGE," lol, what? I hate Dante with a passion, but that is one of the biggest cases of lowballing I've ever friggin' seen.

Hell, I've only provided the most basic speed/agility/reflex feats of Kratos, because that's all I need to prove he is faster than a character without an impressive speed feat to his name.

Well he can hardly defend himself after what a show he made, hence why hes not here. Oh and how you feel carries so much weight? and also, it holds enough weight to make people try and create more text/effort into any reply to anyone on this forum, either their trolling or argueing, their still doing it with me in mind and how I react.

I have proven it, if the Leviathan was using the same force to stop a punch that could shatter piecies of Olmypus then clearly when it attacks Kratos and hardly does anything to the area its not going to be doing as much damage. Also I like how you make a claim, but belive my counter explanation is speculation and not your own, yours is more full of speculation as mine, only I have reasons why I belive thus like stone not breaking, what do you have to reason this thing was moving at the same speed or using the same strength?

No why would they? their using small surface areas and when they do hit, they are going quite far, the difference is less obvious here though isnt it because Kain and Raz use forces equel to moving blocks humans can also move using machines but GoW hypes strength up to ridiculous levels, therefore the physical forces are more relevent. If you dont agree with physical forces being used properly then stop hyping strength feats on how impressive they look, its all physics.

But thats impossible if Kains out of range thanks to a teleport or intangible, or has killed him with a gesture as Kratos' blood sprays on the inside of his body, sending him into cardiac. Whether I can roll when I land or not is nothing to do with reaction, more my own impact and strength, and the mountain wasnt moving so its not the same, Kratos was.

What wont hit? Kratos lumbering along slowly will somehow no sell bolts that move at least using BO1 a few meters a second, and Kain could make more than one, and their mostly homing as well..most of them dont even need to cover distance and are not projectiles, oh and again, TK...lets see Kratos dodge it while hovering helplessly in the air! especially without any rings to launch his chainblades at so he can do his only decent speed feats...oh and hows he going to pull his soul back when he can neither see nor grasp it? as i said, Kains method is unique to hades and purely magical, and whats Kratos' durability going to do against TK inside his body? nothing, the best bet is as I said, it may not reach Kain if Kain cant bust Kratos' chest, this will simply mean worse for Kratos as his organs fail.

And Ares and Zeus did not use Tk on Kratos in their fights, I like how you fall back on trying to claim just because a character Kratos fought has a power Kain has, and just didnt use it, this just means it wont help Kain? what? Neme logic?

Cosmic has done it for me, its not technically running since Kains legs dont move but about 10 meters a second is quicker than "slow lumbering". Also whats your fascination with Kain running at all? why is Kain running when he, unlike Kratos has a choice to cut out having to physically travel distance at all? your not making any sense again, hence why you come to these poor conclusions.

Having played teh games I have pretty much only seen dante aimdodge bullets, apart from when lady shoots at him from behind and he dodges which is not reaction.

But youve not posted speed feats, youve posted strength feats that make him move fast per virtue of using items in the environment that are not here, or momentum from the environment/other characters that are not here. Kratos when he runs around is not much faster than a human and all your doing is trying to lowball Kain and assume hes going to use his legs when he can do far more than that....

BloodRain

Why cant they? Why cant an attack helicopter go full speed in an assault? Not to mention there are many places in NY that are very open to allow it. This is Blackwatch, they not really about safety. And... what? Just because Mercer can outrun a speeding car doesn't mean he can outrun a speeding car, if this is a way of saying 'you dont know how fast they were' well theres a simply counter question; You see zombies, monsters, tanks and one guy they're all attacking running at you. Do you leisurely drive away or do you floor it? Lets assume for a second that in the end Alex cant beat Kain. At the very least he's going to wear Kain down to nothing. Think about it, with or without the Wraith Blade, Raziel was able to wear him down and even inflict some kind of pain on him. Mercer is, depending on which speed you want to use, 5-10x faster and stronger than Raziel. With Kain worn down to that extent he'd be highly vulnerable to the teams two powerhouses.

Their whole mind is inside him, couldnt pull off those perfect mimics without doing that. Soul is arguable, but again he has everything of every person. So if a virus can have a soul then he has theirs too.

Verg was a total mind/body/soul slave and has been so for 10 years. That level of control is vastly above Charm.

Others seem to disagree, so meh. And iirc it was only about they issue of slaughtering his wife and daughter that he becomes easier to sway, but thats a pretty big thing. Soul rep is still a soul rip right? That I remember he didnt even touch anything with his hands.

Why is Kain reacting first? He has human reaction time compared to the others superhuman+ reactions. Yeah a normal person with normal 0.2 reactions. Nothing to bullet timers. He still has to act on appearance, and his human speed is far too slow to beat the others physically.

For the confusion, Lucifer was the one in DMC4 that broke the stone. Ifrit is the gauntlets in DMC1 that greatly amp Dante's strength with hellfire far hotter than magma. While I dont agree that Kratos is as blade resistant as people say, but given the blows he takes Kain will have trouble getting good damage on him, but H2H is not something he wants to do against Kratos. If you want to go by gameplay then QS can last for as long as his DT lasts where DMC4 shows it can go for 1m30s, longer when he goes all out. But how fast can Kain even do that before getting caught in QS? With it activated his 0.1 peak movements/reactions will take 100 seconds in the eyes of Dante.

Could just teleport. And his arms aren't frozen so he can still attack anyway.. and thats if Kain can even tag him. Even though youre against hypersonic speeds youve admitted that Dante moves at Mach 1. Supersonic is still way above anything Kain's dealt with. Can he use TK on 4 people at the same time?

Technically still mind rape but of a different branch. As long as Kratos over came someone mentally itd count... not that I know if he did or of that scene at all <__<

@That post to Neme^: Raz /did/ kick Kain. And if Raz is meant to be doing 200 times the strength of this kick then Kain would have been knocked back.. about 100 times faster than he did. Theres a limit to how real VG physics can get.

Forgetting about their other speed feats, Vergil did a clear bullet time in their tower-top fight, as did Dante four times against Nero. They react /after/ these Ma2 shots is fired.

NemeBro

Yeah, I'm not seeing any evidence from your side BT. You have yet to post a single speed feat to prove Kain is faster in reaction-time or movement, when others have posted several showing Kain to be slower than his opposition.

I'm going to go ahead and take my win now.

Although I will point out that Hades passively entraps and imprisons all the dead souls in existence within his realm, and even in his body. Hades actively tried to rip out Kratos' soul and failed. Oh, and Alex Mercer's running speed was calced at about 300 miles per hour. Hope this helps you a little BR.

Burning thought

Originally posted by BloodRain
Why cant they? Why cant an attack helicopter go full speed in an assault? Not to mention there are many places in NY that are very open to allow it. This is Blackwatch, they not really about safety. And... what? Just because Mercer can outrun a speeding car doesn't mean he can outrun a speeding car, if this is a way of saying 'you dont know how fast they were' well theres a simply counter question; You see zombies, monsters, tanks and one guy they're all attacking running at you. Do you leisurely drive away or do you floor it? Lets assume for a second that in the end Alex cant beat Kain. At the very least he's going to wear Kain down to nothing. Think about it, with or without the Wraith Blade, Raziel was able to wear him down and even inflict some kind of pain on him. Mercer is, depending on which speed you want to use, 5-10x faster and stronger than Raziel. With Kain worn down to that extent he'd be highly vulnerable to the teams two powerhouses.

Their whole mind is inside him, couldnt pull off those perfect mimics without doing that. Soul is arguable, but again he has everything of every person. So if a virus can have a soul then he has theirs too.

Verg was a total mind/body/soul slave and has been so for 10 years. That level of control is vastly above Charm.

Others seem to disagree, so meh. And iirc it was only about they issue of slaughtering his wife and daughter that he becomes easier to sway, but thats a pretty big thing. Soul rep is still a soul rip right? That I remember he didnt even touch anything with his hands.

Why is Kain reacting first? He has human reaction time compared to the others superhuman+ reactions. Yeah a normal person with normal 0.2 reactions. Nothing to bullet timers. He still has to act on appearance, and his human speed is far too slow to beat the others physically.

For the confusion, Lucifer was the one in DMC4 that broke the stone. Ifrit is the gauntlets in DMC1 that greatly amp Dante's strength with hellfire far hotter than magma. While I dont agree that Kratos is as blade resistant as people say, but given the blows he takes Kain will have trouble getting good damage on him, but H2H is not something he wants to do against Kratos. If you want to go by gameplay then QS can last for as long as his DT lasts where DMC4 shows it can go for 1m30s, longer when he goes all out. But how fast can Kain even do that before getting caught in QS? With it activated his 0.1 peak movements/reactions will take 100 seconds in the eyes of Dante.

Could just teleport. And his arms aren't frozen so he can still attack anyway.. and thats if Kain can even tag him. Even though youre against hypersonic speeds youve admitted that Dante moves at Mach 1. Supersonic is still way above anything Kain's dealt with. Can he use TK on 4 people at the same time?

Technically still mind rape but of a different branch. As long as Kratos over came someone mentally itd count... not that I know if he did or of that scene at all <__<

@That post to Neme^: Raz /did/ kick Kain. And if Raz is meant to be doing 200 times the strength of this kick then Kain would have been knocked back.. about 100 times faster than he did. Theres a limit to how real VG physics can get.

Forgetting about their other speed feats, Vergil did a clear bullet time in their tower-top fight, as did Dante four times against Nero. They react /after/ these Ma2 shots is fired.

Because they would crash? theres like a few meters, tens at best between some skyscrapers, and further you cant prove they did, you cant just claim max speed for every machine/vehicle in the game, gridlocked taxis in traffic dont go at 100 mph, infact i dont see any go at any major speed. mercers not even touching Kain, most of them are not touching Kain but Mercer wear Kain down? if anything everyone other than Kain and possibly mercer thanks to his biology are going to be worn down, Kain and Raz had a fight, Kain by the end being battered by weapons more powerful than Mercer has.

Their minds, their knowledge but mercer himself is one mind, the virus is one mind, it just happens to have all their knowledge. Wheres your evidence to suggest there are hundreds of minds in there at once? Because, there are not hundreds of voices accompanying Mercers in the cutscenes when he is thinking or talking, theres still one person.

Corruption imo, and thats Verg, hes not in this thread.

Well I know more than you on this it seems, and so do "others" so ill let them try and defend Kratos.

Bullet timers, when? who? Dante? Dante who aim dodges most if not all of his enemies, show me Dante bullet timing thats not, without any doubt an aimdodge, because most if not all his enemies with guns aim at him before fireing, including lady. Also, humans cant react, move and stimulate from nothing (humans cant do this, since they cant remove themselves from the world, their constantly under some sitmulai).

Show me their feats/canon behind them please. Kain needs one hit, to take kratos' soul, not a single strike on Kratos was anything more than a punch and as for Chronos, a lot of his energy also goes through his own hangs since they clench together and even that is unkown of how much pressure Kratos would even be under since we dont see him.

QS has a range, you cant claim that no matter where Kain is, hes going to be affected or that would be a no limit fallacy, Kains time powers also have a range of about a room or so we agreed, Kain only has to gesture. Dante has to actually build momentum after activating QS and run up to Kain, also you cant use how long DT takes in gameplay in DMC4 as its limit for QS when QS for all wek now takes more energy than DT.

When has Dante ever teleported, I see trixter as fast speed, a lot of people do so its not just me. Whats speed going to help him, and again, he needs momentum, youve yet to prove Dante goes from zero to mach 1 as soon as he starts moving....Kain gestures if that, Dante is held in the air, he cant run.....then Kain deals with the rest but tbh, Dante is the only real threat.

Show me the video where they react after.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Yeah, I'm not seeing any evidence from your side BT. You have yet to post a single speed feat to prove Kain is faster in reaction-time or movement, when others have posted several showing Kain to be slower than his opposition.

I'm going to go ahead and take my win now.

Although I will point out that Hades passively entraps and imprisons all the dead souls in existence within his realm, and even in his body. Hades actively tried to rip out Kratos' soul and failed. Oh, and Alex Mercer's running speed was calced at about 300 miles per hour. Hope this helps you a little BR.

where? youve shown that given some in-game props he can using his strength move fairly quickly, hes not got that here and you ask evidence from me, what do you want exactly? since half the stuff is in the respect thread that ime talking about or is common knowledge.... youve been on this forum for longer than I have, years and yet your claiming youve not seen the dimention reaver before, or the moebius attack dash.

laughing

"take your win now", youve won......knowledge, knowledge that Kratos is countered in every way by Kain.

He used hooks that almost physically grasp the soul, requiring him to yank it out, Kratos was stronger than hades, thats all it was. Again, really just a strength feat.

NemeBro

Anyone who isn't you can plainly see that I've smashed your feeble argument from its foundations, sundered your anti-logic from the peaks of reason, and slayed the dragon of intellectual dishonesty that you perpetuate within every thread.

I am aware of Kain's feats of speed cretin, and how they don't match up to anyone here (Save perhaps War).

So yeah, I'll take my win.

Burning thought

Yes, smashed. One post trying to claim Kratos riding Gaias momentum and power, or him using props smashes the argument that his foot speed is slow.....again, youve sunk lower the more annoyed you get....

Anyone who thinks Kratos' lumbering can allow him to catch up with a teleporter/someone who can take to the air/wind as several forms doesnt deserve to win anything more than a spicy curry that will burn their tongues for hours without end.

NemeBro

I was never arguing that Kratos needed to move to kill Kain, honestly.

His melee weapons being effectively ranged renders that unnecessary.

And yep, smashed, glad you agree.

Burning thought

Ranged? what? they are how long, a few meters? tens of meters? In the time Kain makes a gesture, tosses Kratos through the air with Tk or just holds him somehwere until hes done with Dante hows Kratos going to get within 10 meters of Kain?

Burning thought

Erm....well, not sure what thats supposed to mean but w/e then. Nemebros out of gas after 3/4 posts....disapointing sad

NemeBro

In my defense, I won.

Burning thought

What did you win? Unless you did a Kratos, sisters of fate manipulation my trophy that i got on page 2/3 of this thread should be right next to me.

NemeBro

Arrogant posturing gets you nowhere BT.

Burning thought

Hypocrite then arent we Nemebro?

NemeBro

It is not arrogance for an immaculate being to acknowledge his greatness, so no hypocrisy here.

Burning thought

Riiiiggghhttttt.....

Also assuming Kain kills and drains Kratos' blood first, taking his power for his own, genetically speaking Kain would have Kratos' ridiculous strength and would proceed to use it to just toss pebbles off the ground to kill his other enemies.

Fortunatly for Kratos though, hes not as I said to BR, likely to be his first target, Dante can only hold that honor.

NemeBro

Or Kratos cuts his head off at the beginning. big grin

Dante can also accomplish this feat.

Burning thought

Why would he comit suicide? Thats not going to help his team, and Dante probably could do it too, but their target is Kain.

Nephthys

To be honest, I am somewhat curious to see what Kain has that can counter a Speed Blitz from Dante.

NemeBro

Kratos didn't think the fight was fair for Kain, so he gave himself a handicap to make it more-so.

I mean, a headless Kratos will still stomp Kain, just not as badly.

Burning thought

Originally posted by Nephthys
To be honest, I am somewhat curious to see what Kain has that can counter a Speed Blitz from Dante.

Tk to stop the blitz. Ive yet ot be convinced Dante has the pressure to do much harm to Dante. Hes not as strong as bowser either, his only advantage is a slightly better surface area but Dantes consistent sword Rebellion is a fatter edge than many.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Burning thought
Tk to stop the blitz. Ive yet ot be convinced Dante has the pressure to do much harm to Dante. Hes not as strong as bowser either, his only advantage is a slightly better surface area but Dantes consistent sword Rebellion is a fatter edge than many.

But Kain simply doesn't have the reaction time to do that. Nor does his TK move fast enough to lift Dante from the ground before he reached Kain. Plus that wouldn't stop Dante from shooting him, so throwing a weapon at him.

And I believe that your argument for Kain's durability was soundly defeated some time ago.

NemeBro

Dante is faster than Kain's thoughts.

Prove me wrong bro.

Also, Savior feat>>>Obelisk.

Dante is physically the second strongest person here.

Burning thought

Based on what? show me Dante going from zero to mach 1 or w/e speed you think he can go before someone can make an idle gesture with their hand? Dantes reaction feats are as I said before, mostly aim dodging or not reaction feats, anyone fighting someone with a gun has something to react to beyond the bullet unless you can see the bulelt go slow mo like in bayonetta before she dodges and even then, shes dodging someone she can see aiming at her, thats more than Dante has.

Kain has to idly move his hand, Dante has to build up momentum and travel X amount of distance, which could be meters, miles or w/e, Estacado did not specify before trying to create thousands times the pressure of the core of the planet (hows he going do this when he can barely pull a sword out of his chest suction?) to get to Kains bone. All this before Kain idly moves his hand? not a chance.....or turns to mist assuming Kain favours defence over offence.

What soundly defeated it? it was proven solid by unbias people not even from games vs.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Dante is faster than Kain's thoughts.

Prove me wrong bro.

This is just a claim, an unproven one, so i cant prove you wrong unless you prove yourself right.

And have you evne played DMC?

The Saviour feat is also overhyped, it relies on Saviour being solid even though he has many hollow areas insdie him where Nero is not only imprisoned but walks around in, it relies on Saviour not being so flexible, hes not just a block of stone and it relies on Saviour not being able to support himself so easily, his arms despite being so flexible can stand stationary in the Saviour scene.

Dante at best blocks Saviour, and then sort of moves out from under him, counterbalancing it so to speak. The actual push from dante hardlmy moves saviour a few meters off of him.

NemeBro

Hahahahaha what is this lowballing bullshit.

Dante was calced at mach 15.

CC proved definitively that the "unbiased people" made a pretty substantial mistake in their conversions.

http://www.narutoforums.com/showpost.php?p=32075971&postcount=1750

Here is a mach 6.5 calculation for a feat.

Can't find the mach 15 calc, but you don't need to be mach 15 to be faster than a character who isn't mach 1.

Burning thought

Where? by one person who loves Dante? and calcs him nigh capable to the speed of light, and mach 15 is not something he has ever done, its just assumed from a few movements and rough guestimates on how slowly things seem to be falling thanks to specific powers he does not have access to at present.

Show me, CC didnt prove anything. He compared to calcs and said I had to be wrong because one was 7x more than the other, then unashamably said "I just prefer BLoodrains" in pretty much those words. You didnt even read CC's full posts did you? you just sort of skimmed and pretended it was a perfect counter?

PROVE Dante can go from zero to Mach anything...prove this, he never has simply ran at mach 1 or w/e from a standing position. hes reached the mach numbers if your ignoring some of the canon and just looking at some heat on the sword after being given some momentum by terminal velocity.

Also that calc is laughable, hes using the fact Dante has his guns literally a few inches away from the end of her guns as Dantes speed? thats not him moving at all, thats him pulling the trigger, at best thats a reaction feat but tbh, its not even that considering how close their guns were, its more like amazing aim, which we know Dante has from being able to fire bullets one on top of the other from tens of meters away.

Nephthys

The Mach 15 feat is the one where he's fighting Vergil in the rain.

And apparantly Dante has telekinesis of his own. And he can stop time. So yeah, cool story BT!

Burning thought

How do you think BR accuratly calculated how far each raindrop was falling to say Dante was moving quick, he guessed. Oh and do you remember when I countered your claims there? proving the retcon and that this did not canonically happen?

Hes pretty much smashing swords agaist vergils in flashy slow motion, and whatsnot even there is again, friction which DMC shows in the same gam later on as he falls down Temi geru, pressure, air related and later on, Dante even gets impaled easily by an attack at peak human....the difference is this attack is canon, the earlier scene was a flashy intro retconned by Dante simply saying he hates his brother.

Also wheres the sonic boombs in any of this and coat movements are all off again, I thnk your using physics, tehn saying some physics dont work but they do for you when its necessery for a feat for a character you like? This could be simply labeled as the same sort of "coolforce" that Dante shows when he rides a rocket around the room, his feet spider man style stuck to the rocket and his bodyweight not being influenced at all.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Burning thought
Where? by one person who loves Dante? and calcs him nigh capable to the speed of light, and mach 15 is not something he has ever done, its just assumed from a few movements and rough guestimates on how slowly things seem to be falling thanks to specific powers he does not have access to at present.

Show me, CC didnt prove anything. He compared to calcs and said I had to be wrong because one was 7x more than the other, then unashamably said "I just prefer BLoodrains" in pretty much those words. You didnt even read CC's full posts did you? you just sort of skimmed and pretended it was a perfect counter?

PROVE Dante can go from zero to Mach anything...prove this, he never has simply ran at mach 1 or w/e from a standing position. hes reached the mach numbers if your ignoring some of the canon and just looking at some heat on the sword after being given some momentum by terminal velocity.

BloodRain didn't make the calc silly little boy. Ah, the lowballing, it is great.

Harharhar.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
BR/Paste's calc got a tons per square inch reading of almost 10,000 tons (9,554.375 tons). D and M got 21 million tons (21,207,563 tons) P.S.I. Naturally, you chose to immediately adopt the higher figure whole-heartedly over BR's, which seemed to go unacknowledged. Hmmm...let's see how the hell that happened. Well firstly, BR/Paste's newton figure for the whole feat was 272,155.422 N. D and M got a newton figure of 1,871,628.73896 N. That's greater by a multiple of almost 7. I don't know how such a big difference came about, but whatever. It's only single digit multiples for this one so I'll leave it be. HOWEVER. You both used the same area for the tips.
.00000206 meters^2 = .0032 inches^2. So HOW THE HELL, did your guys get to 21 million tons per square inch vs ~9,500 tons per square inch? That's over 2,200 times bigger, and yet your Newtons figure was only 7 times greater while using the same area.

Let's turn BR's figure into pascals and bar and compare from there.

272,155 N/.00000206 meters^2 = 132,114,077,669.9 pascals. which is 1,321,140.78 bar. (just dividing by 100,000). Both figures are almost 7 times smaller than your pascal and bar figures respectively, so as of this point we're all still on the same page. However...upon reaching the tons per square inch figure, we reach the huge divide already laid out before. 21 million tons per square inch vs 9,500 tons per square inch. Over 2000 times difference. Someone here ****ed up on the conversion. And which side ****ed up? Your side did.

http://www.asknumbers.com/PressureConversion.aspx
^Check and make sure with this pressure conversion site if you don't believe me.

Plug the numbers into the converter boyo. You are obviously the one who didn't read the entire post, that was plainly obvious from the beginning.

Yeah no. If you haven't noticed, I have stopped giving all ****s, I have lost all interest with actually debating you. You show nothing resembling wit, logic, or debating decorum, and frankly? I really, really couldn't give a shit how an insect like you thinks of me. By anyone else's standards on this site, I dominated your argument, took it into my bedroom, and showed it what a real man was.

Also, lol@ the last part, the irony is delicious.

Also, Raziel's claw tips are dull.

Crai moar.

Burning thought

He convereted one to the other and found one has higher/lower tons per square inch than the other, this does not disprove anything though, the pressure Raziel excerted in his hands or his palms is irrelevent to the fact he still required the force he provided to move the thing. The final presure on his palms was a nice bit of side info, the pressure at his claw tips is however the relevent info used on kain. The only thing Cosmic brought up even relevent is that we have not calculated out the one arm Raz did not use on Kain but this levels out when he did not calculate the difference between Raziel trying his best, and Raziel idly moving a pillar the same way he does the 50 ton blocks in the rest of the game.

Another funny note is that CC is comparing the calculation BR did on the pillar vs the calculation done on the fight against Kain in the chronoplast chamber where M and D and I added speed and the surface areas respectfully which is probably why hes mentioning the SA of Raziels palms as if its relevent.

Also, this is another rant, not much better than Cosmics, also "anyone elses standards", who has standards exactly? Most people on this site dont even know al the characters.

Yes, dull claws slice easily into solid concrete and soldiers with ease...they have the same point/edge as any claw and what touched Kain is arguably less than what we use. We dont actually use a lot of Kains feats in that scene, we just use surface area to surface area, the fact Kains skin does not distort at all also makes it an impressive elasticity strength feat for his skin.

Also, crai moar? Its "cry more" dear, I am not that great at touch typing without errors myself but thats two mistaken words.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Burning thought
How do you think BR accuratly calculated how far each raindrop was falling to say Dante was moving quick, he guessed. Oh and do you remember when I countered your claims there? proving the retcon and that this did not canonically happen?

Hes pretty much smashing swords agaist vergils in flashy slow motion, and whatsnot even there is again, friction which DMC shows in the same gam later on as he falls down Temi geru, pressure, air related and later on, Dante even gets impaled easily by an attack at peak human....the difference is this attack is canon, the earlier scene was a flashy intro retconned by Dante simply saying he hates his brother.

Actually I'm going off of Dantes Character Profile at the moment. But lol, even if Bloodrain was slightly off in his calculations its still waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay faster than anything Kain can possibly hope to deal with. And no, I remember you running you mouth, but I can't recall you countering anything. The feat where they are fighting and teh rain is hanging suspended in midair could easily have happened during the gameplay part of the fight, which wouldn't be a contradiction at all.

Also theres a very noticable cut where the scene could easily be inserted.

Edit: And I totally agree with Neme. He kicked your ass bro.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Burning thought

Hahahahahaha.

It makes the feat less impressive for one.

Don't have to. smile

Burning thought

BR may not be just slightly off, the guy who calcs Dante capable of lightspeed or 5x lightspeed could for all you know be vastly off, and still not have the feats to suggest Dante can do this on a dime before Kain can flex his fingers. No, it couldnt have easily happened, because the fightin the rain happens before the scene where their blades are together, causing frictional heat, this happens immediatly after Dante tells his brother he doesnt like him, theres a lot of conversation here. You cant just add piecies of previous info thats been changed and removed by the devs....

NemeBro

Why are you continuing to attack someone who didn't even do the calc, and beyond that has a grasp of physics and math demonstratably superior to your's?

Show some class.

Burning thought

Originally posted by NemeBro
Why are you continuing to attack someone who didn't even do the calc, and beyond that has a grasp of physics and math demonstratably superior to your's?

Show some class.

One, I did not attack, simply point out theres no way he could see and calculate how far each raindrop fell and second, this statement is proven where? where I proved the whole forum wrong when a couple of unbias posters in another section of said forum found higher figuires than even my own?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Hahahahahaha.

It makes the feat less impressive for one.

Don't have to. smile

You are aware that there are graphical limitations in these games, right?

Also, lol at the first part. Superman cut a moon in half with his elbow, you don't see me claiming that his elbow is sharp. Raziel's claws are noticeably dull, duller than my fingernail. Maybe he's just... Strong? Also, for a real-world example, the teeth of an alligator are completely blunt, yet due to the tremendous strength of their bite, they can impale a human easily.

Baw.

Dante and Kratos can kill Raziel and Kain at the beginning easily enough.

Well no, it doesnt. It just means Raziel had less pressure on his hands, not less force to move the block.

The tip of the tooth is still a small surface area, a square millimeter which is what most of Raziels feats are calculated on is actually quite big, when most human made knives are not even close to that...thats more like the tip of a humans blunt finger tbh. So everything we do calculating Raziel is a lowball, from assuming him doing something easy is his max, to his claw tip sizes. Same with Kain, ignoring half of the crazy physical properties his skin has shown, a kitten scratch can claw a human but all the pressure of the earths core x 3 processed in a claw point cant even dent it or cause a bruise.

Wow, thats convincing. Ill just counter with "Kain can tool Kratos and defeat dante with one hand wave" in the beginning. Then speed blitz anyone left after drinking Dantes blood.

Also, why would anyone use the character profile, made by posters from another forum who may be just as poorly thought out as this ones? A character profile is not a feat, they even said Dante can bust a skyscraper, when? or telekinesis? They also had his Stamina at extremely high when as jester points out, a few minuts of fighting with his brother makes him slow....

Nephthys

Originally posted by Burning thought
BR may not be just slightly off, the guy who calcs Dante capable of lightspeed or 5x lightspeed could for all you know be vastly off, and still not have the feats to suggest Dante can do this on a dime before Kain can flex his fingers.

Ad hominem. Stop attacking Bloodrains math skills, or at least have the courtesy to disprove them instead of making snide comments. You keep saying that you'll argue the feat in a Dante thread, and yet you've done bupkis so far. Bloodrains calcs stand.

And given that his calculations are backed up by the profile (assuming the info on there didn't come from him?) I'm very comfortable with accepting the calculation of Mach 15.

And again, no matter how far off the calculation, any idiot can see that the speed displayed in that scene is such that Dante could easily blitz Kain without really trying.

Edit: And BR apparantly didn't even do the calc. Nice. What were you saying?

Originally posted by Burning thought
No, it couldnt have easily happened, because the fightin the rain happens before the scene where their blades are together, causing frictional heat, this happens immediatly after Dante tells his brother he doesnt like him, theres a lot of conversation here. You cant just add piecies of previous info thats been changed and removed by the devs....

As I said, there are noticable cuts into which we can insert the correct scenes. They are not mutually exclusive to one another. Nice try though. wink

Burning thought

Ad hominem is against the poster of the argument, your the poster of the argument and I am pointing out your ignorance of BR's methods. Also, how do they stand? Because you just shrug and agree?

Backed up by what profile? lol....its not a backing for anything, its made by anyone who wants to change it, it says a lot of funny things in there.

Blitz Kain? he moves his arms around a bit to block sowrd strikes, how is this a blitzing manouver? he didnt blitz vergil, he didnt blitz lady, he didnt blitz anyone and has been tagged just many times as hes tagged others, he got shot in the head by lady in one scene, and in the chest.

"insert the correct scenes", nice try on making your own "DMC" game.....maybe ill just "add in" bits cut from the LoK games, I recall bullet time powers in BO 2 were cut as well....

Also the people on there say things even I am not so sure about kain, like him regenerating after having his heart removed, I still doubt he did this without Raziels efforts. Also Kains reaction on the site is hypersonic+, which is funny because Dantes speed is hypersonic+ lol....He also beats Alucard and Kratos on their site....

NemeBro

Originally posted by Burning thought
One, I did not attack, simply point out theres no way he could see and calculate how far each raindrop fell and second, this statement is proven where? where I proved the whole forum wrong when a couple of unbias posters in another section of said forum found higher figuires than even my own?

Nope, CC disproved your "feat".

Also, fyi, the notion that Kain is billions of times more durable than Raziel was funny.

Blunt ass claws.

Um, are you under the impression that I am disputing him tipping the obelisk?

Because I'm not. What was proven that the pressure you got for the feat was two thousand times more impressive than it should have been.

You think a human's fingertip is a square millimeter?

Also, nup, sorry, your little earth's core feat has been disproved. According to the correct conversions, and with a little look on wiki, Raziel can exert "merely" a little over twice the tons PSI of the ballistic pressure exerted as high-power bullet strikes solid (bulletproof) object.

Noticeably less impressive.

Once more, Kratos and Dante can kill Kain and Raziel before Kain can think to do anything.

Damn, I sure am WINNING this thread.

Edit: Technically Neph, BT is making an Appeal to Motive fallacy. Attempting to disprove the validity of BR's calcs (The ones he did not make) by insinuating that they can't be accepted due to bias.

It's BT's favorite fallacy at the moment, apparently.

Burning thought

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nope, CC disproved your "feat".

Also, fyi, the notion that Kain is billions of times more durable than Raziel was funny.

Blunt ass claws.

Um, are you under the impression that I am disputing him tipping the obelisk?

Because I'm not. What was proven that the pressure you got for the feat was two thousand times more impressive than it should have been.

You think a human's fingertip is a square millimeter?

Also, nup, sorry, your little earth's core feat has been disproved. According to the correct conversions, and with a little look on wiki, Raziel can exert "merely" a little over twice the tons PSI of the ballistic pressure exerted as high-power bullet strikes solid (bulletproof) object.

Noticeably less impressive.

Once more, Kratos and Dante can kill Kain and Raziel before Kain can think to do anything.

Damn, I sure am WINNING this thread.

Edit: Technically Neph, BT is making an Appeal to Motive fallacy. Attempting to disprove the validity of BR's calcs (The ones he did not make) by insinuating that they can't be accepted due to bias.

It's BT's favorite fallacy at the moment, apparently.

No, you can claim that as much as you like, it doesnt make it true you know?

Erm why? Raziel gets cut by humans on screen, while Kain in the same game takes Raziels strikes without harm on screen, nay on FMV.....so stop trolling.

No, it was proven that M and D and myself, using the full calculation on Raziel attacking Kain creates more pressure than Raziel simply moving the obelisk...which makes vastly more sense doesnt it, because raziels claw tips have a small surcae area as opposed to Raziels two hands....

Yes, the average human nail is about 2mm squared, the finger tip is about 1mm squared just as a guestimate of my own freshly cut nails.

You looked on wiki and so this disproves me? laughing

NO because your character prfile/wiki says Kratos loses to kain!

No wai! ime winningzor!?

No, I said I dont belive his calcs are legit because I dont see any reasoing on how he calculated each raindrop falling, also I was under the impression he did it but whoever did it, I would like to see their method and I would only be appealing to motive if I was saying his calcs were wrong because he loves Dante...and only that....which is funny for you to mension because that is what you do to me.

You would know all about fallacies having used them yourself countless occasions, yet you seem to think the fallacy applies in situations it doesnt.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ad hominem is against the poster of the argument, your the poster of the argument and I am pointing out your ignorance of BR's methods. Also, how do they stand? Because you just shrug and agree?

Backed up by what profile? lol....its not a backing for anything, its made by anyone who wants to change it, it says a lot of funny things in there.

Blitz Kain? he moves his arms around a bit to block sowrd strikes, how is this a blitzing manouver? he didnt blitz vergil, he didnt blitz lady, he didnt blitz anyone and has been tagged just many times as hes tagged others, he got shot in the head by lady in one scene, and in the chest.

"insert the correct scenes", nice try on making your own "DMC" game.....maybe ill just "add in" bits cut from the LoK games, I recall bullet time powers in BO 2 were cut as well....

You are attacking BR personally to discredit a completely seperate feat. That falls into a Ad Hominem attack in my humble opinion. And yes thats how these things work. Generally something is standing until you manage to knock it down. Now unless you'd actually like to disprove it I don't think we have anything else to discuss on this topic.

Except it actually establishes a source. You were the one touting 'unbiased support' a moment ago. Would you deny me the same courtesy?

As proven by numerous people Dante has more than enough speed to blitz Kain.

You misunderstand me, I am not attempting to add in made up scenes, I'm merely pointing out that there is a break in the scene where the fight from the intro could have taken place, except the makers didn't show it because they had already shown it. It makes perfect sense and is acceptable within the rules of scene progression.

Nephthys

Originally posted by NemeBro
Edit: Technically Neph, BT is making an Appeal to Motive fallacy. Attempting to disprove the validity of BR's calcs (The ones he did not make) by insinuating that they can't be accepted due to bias.

It's BT's favorite fallacy at the moment, apparently.

SHRUG!

A fallacy is a fallacy is a fallacy. I dun care which.

Burning thought

Originally posted by Nephthys
You are attacking BR personally to discredit a completely seperate feat. That falls into a Ad Hominem attack in my humble opinion. And yes thats how these things work. Generally something is standing until you manage to knock it down. Now unless you'd actually like to disprove it I don't think we have anything else to discuss on this topic.

Except it actually establishes a source. You were the one touting 'unbiased support' a moment ago. Would you deny me the same courtesy?

As proven by numerous people Dante has more than enough speed to blitz Kain.

You misunderstand me, I am not attempting to add in made up scenes, I'm merely pointing out that there is a break in the scene where the fight from the intro could have taken place, except the makers didn't show it because they had already shown it. It makes perfect sense and is acceptable within the rules of scene progression.

laughing

NemeBro

Originally posted by Burning thought
No, you can claim that as much as you like, it doesnt make it true you know?

Correct.

CC's post is what makes it true.

Maybe, you know, Raziel's claws are... Blunt. smile

Also, to take a page from your book, can you prove that Raziel's hands were going at the same velocity or exerting the same force as they are when he tips the obelisk? big grin

Burning thought

Originally posted by NemeBro
Correct.

CC's post is what makes it true.

Maybe, you know, Raziel's claws are... Blunt. smile

Also, to take a page from your book, can you prove that Raziel's hands were going at the same velocity or exerting the same force as they are when he tips the obelisk? big grin

First of all, stop inserting yourself to take credit for their work.

Second of all, it was proven that they botched the conversion.

You can't actually side-step that point. The conversion was botched in the translation from bars to tons PSI.

Going to have to disagree, unless you have tiny fingers. Can you show evidence of this?

Well no, I realise you are slow-witted, but try to keep up.

Using the correct tons PSI of the pressure exerted by Raziel's claws, namely about 9,500 tons PSI, I checked the Orders of Magnitude page for pressure and noticed that that is nearly twice that of teh boolit I just mentioned.

Reading comprehension yo.

My character profile? Er, Neph is the one who posted it.

Afraid not. While imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, you're not very good at portraying the subtle nuance and wit I possess, while simultaneously taking refuge in the audacity of my posting style. So I must ask you to stop.

Um, I guess you could say that is what I've been doing. If you were an idiot.

Did you miss the part where I pointed out where your math was disproven?

And nah, I certainly don't need the mach 15 calc, when the mach 6.5 calc will do.

Point out my fallacies.

CC's post only outlines his confusion and now your own.

No, although a second ago you were claiming blunt things can do ridiculous force anyway, its all about SA, Raziels SA is more than small enough without having to be monomolecular.

Well yes, because the scene itself shows Raziel enraged and using all his strength, as opposed to idly moving the obelisk as if it were a 50 ton block he did earlier....theres "ease" and theres "use of power"

it wasnt all their work, just mostly. Second, no they didnt, it was proven CC didnt read the thread and thinks the ability and pressure to move a pillar is the same to impact Kains chest with claws.

WHy would I show evidence, i can see it..also your playing silly buggers, look online and look up the human nail, at best their about 3mm in length on average and not much more than that wide.

"correct" meaning the one you prefer, which is pretty much what CC was complaing about with me, only he was wrong.

True but still, its funny.

You pointed out where you belive it was disproven, then failed to point out why apart from vaguely describing how apprently Raziels claws may not be sharp as knives or such.

You use ad hominem all the time, you love band wagons and jump on them any time you can and on top of that you create straw mans often as well,

Edit-, actually, its 2 cm, not mm. its the tip of an alligator tooth that can be measured in mm squared.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Burning thought
CC's post only outlines his confusion and now your own.

Prove it.

I was bringing up Superman having a cutting feat with something duller than a pencil, yes.

I'm not disputing that Raziel is strong enough to put holes in normal humans, or in stone, so I'm not seeing your point.

Hey now, Atlas was enraged, but according to you not using all his strength. Podeison was enraged, but according to you not using all his strength.

What a joke.

Er, that's not what he said at all.

He merely pointed out where your team made a mistake in conversions.

Point out with quotes and a suitable explanation the flaw in CC's post, in terms of debunking your calculations.

Raziel's claw tips are duller than a human nail, so I'm not seeing your point here. They are marginally smaller than a human finger, if that, at the tips.

Oh hey look another appeal to motive. I could make this a drinking game. Well, I would, if I drank.

Disprove CC's "disprovation" (Hey look I invented a word! big grin

Burning thought

Originally posted by NemeBro
Prove it.

I was bringing up Superman having a cutting feat with something duller than a pencil, yes.

I'm not disputing that Raziel is strong enough to put holes in normal humans, or in stone, so I'm not seeing your point.

Hey now, Atlas was enraged, but according to you not using all his strength. Podeison was enraged, but according to you not using all his strength.

What a joke.

Er, that's not what he said at all.

He merely pointed out where your team made a mistake in conversions.

Point out with quotes and a suitable explanation the flaw in CC's post, in terms of debunking your calculations.

Raziel's claw tips are duller than a human nail, so I'm not seeing your point here. They are marginally smaller than a human finger, if that, at the tips.

Oh hey look another appeal to motive. I could make this a drinking game. Well, I would, if I drank.

Disprove CC's "disprovation" (Hey look I invented a word! big grin

) if you take issue with it.

Not really. Give me a few days and I could easily turn that around.

Well that and the whole "They ****ed up the conversions" thing.

Wrong, I insult, but I don't ever pretend that that defeats your argument in of itself. If you are going to accuse someone of fallacy, do so correctly.

I guess that's why I'm such a big DMC and Kingdom Hearts fan then. Point out said bandwagons.

If you are referring to making fun of you and laughing at you as a bandwagon, that is also a silly statement. I've been doing that longer than everyone else here. If anything, they joined my bandwagon.

Point some out.

Can't help but notice you could not show me any actual fallacies I have made, or rather examples of such.

You just did it yourself by complaining about conversions of one calc to another.

So what are you disputing then? you just said that apprently if Raziels claws were blunt, that they would not be impressive not piercing Kain, regardless of how sharp they are, their SA is still tiny.

No he wasnt, he was annoyed at what Kratos did before, but he put two fingers of little effort onto Kratos. And Posiedon wasnt enraged, when? Not at Kratos at any rate.

I just did point it out, hes claiming here;

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Let's quote the respect thread calc posts again:

BR:

vs.

D and M's;

(not actually quoting what he quoted for virtue of stretching the post) that these are the same calculation done wrong, when the second one is the final calculation at Raziels claw tips after attacking Kain. The first one is BR's calc on the pillar itself.... I cant belive you cant even see that tbh, but ofc you didnt look at all did you.

The very tip is very small, CC calculated the tip as a cone, as if Raziels claw penetated Kain at all, which it didnt, the very tip which we cant really calc properly is whta hit Kain, but we use 1mm squared for ease.

Ive done it countless times, and youve shown the ignorance of it as well, also a drinking game of calling out fallacies randomy without reason? how boring...

since when, show me, specifically the quote that proves this, all I see is CC struggling to claim that just because one was 7x more (assuming they were the same calc, their not) or hundreds of times more that they had to be wrong.....theres no proof there ,just his assertion.

Neither do I, also youve done it before. This is one of those bandwagons, you jump on a bandwagon every time anyone tries to bash me, then you join in. It never turns to anything. in this case, your on CC's bandwagon. also you cant call a bandwagon yours just because you got upset and made a on me grudge first, you join new bandwagons every time someone gets upset that I ruined their argument.

Well youve twisted around the argument of surface area, trying to get me to argue Raziels claw sizes when its completly irrelevent to the point at hand, which was that Kain took pressure on Raziels claws which are extremely high compared to Raziel being wounded by regular humans....

Theres also a ton of red herrings, most of what were discussing has nothing to do with the original argument which was Kratos' speed or Dantes, you trying to claim CC has somehow disproved everything instead of actually proving things yourself waylaid the real arguments.

I could say the same about you.

BloodRain

Well I half made that calc.. Originally calc'd it and posted it here, thinking I made it first. Then a lil while later found the Clark feat and.. some other similar one where the people did the same method I did to get the same result. And no Neph, Im not an OBD member.. well, not yet at least.

BT, how can you say the rain calc is wrong if you dont even get it? Since you asked so kindly for me to nicely explain to you (<___&lt wink

The formula for time dilation feats:
(Real speed/Dilated speed)*(Persons speed)
(Rain's min 2m/s / Dilated 0.001m/s)*(2.5m/s min movements)
^Lowballed figures for fairness.

You get the time difference between something thats effected by the effect then times it by the movement speed.

@BT: Now youre assuming that A) the best of the best Blackwatch arent good enough to fly a heli in the straight lines that NY is and that B) that the chases are always around skyscrapers. IIRC around a quarter of NY is skyscrapers, most is normal buildings and still enough room for many areas with low buildings. Not to mention Central Park. My claim is that the military, especially Blackwatch, will let Alex slip out of their fingers because they were too scared to go full speed. And yes, several times in the can you have cars speeding away from combat or the infected. Theyre not suicidal enough to slowly drive away.
Because of Kain's super peak human speed? Soul Reaver fights say hi. First match, Kain is brought to pain and barely wins when Raziel is only using his claws. Defiance match, only canonly got struck by the Blade once, and before that was stalemating/losing to a guy with 1/5th the speed and strength of Mercer.

IIRC there was a cutscene where he mentions all the voices screaming in his head. Plus Charm would need to prove that it can effect a conscious without a brain.

Mundus' 10 year 100% control > Charm. Yeah, Dante's identical twin brother who share the same powers and bloodline who is < Dante. If Vergil can do it, Dante can do it and maybe better.

Kay~ But still want to know why you think Kain's soul powers will work where Hades' failed.

DMC4 vs Nero, go watch. There are 3 reaction-after-shot scenes with the gameply having Dante shoot bullets out of mid air. Reacting after a shot =/= aimdodging. Who says Kain does? Simple, as Kain knows where he's going to 'port to next he obviously knows what he's going to do when he appears. Its the same as saying "Punch the target when you see the red light flash". You know what you have to do when you when the light comes on the same as Kain knows that he's to attack as soon as he appears.

Besides it amping Dante's high-above-Raziel strength: "Devil May Cry, Enemy File - Frost: "Although impervious even to volcanic fire, the frosts are weak to higher realms of incendiary. Use the hellfire of Ifrit to counter them."" Magma does nothing but Ifrit easily wrecks them.
But Kratos has a good soul resistance feat. And Ive seen the Reaver strike Raziel, Moebius, Kain, Moebius again, the old Raziel and I think someone else without instantly taking their souls. Dunno, a punch from Zeus who is > Cronos (?) cant be far from Kain's slash if not above it. To even get to this Kain will have to strike above Kratos' reactions and make the huge risk of getting that close to someone that could tear him apart.

Just as I cant say QS's range is infinite, you can't suggest a finite range for it. Though if we must, going by gameplay it can effect everything on the screen. Given the size of some areas the radius of effect would be 50-100m minimum. And you cant compare the time fragment to QS by any means. TF slows time by 1/5, QS is 1/1000. So even if by chance they activate it at the same time, QS will still slow Kain down by 200x. He can simply walk and appear supersonic to Kain. Yeah the momentum thing is your idea, doesnt hold water. But it doesnt, in gameplay it drains the meter as fast as DT does. Same time. TBH you may as well not bother to argue how long it takes, because unless you want to try bring it down to.. 10 seconds, that'd still be plenty of time to get to Kain and do whatever he likes.

A lot of people as in that one guy who made a single post and left? Though hearing you use the 'appeal to audience' that you always claim I used if fun. No. The Dash is speed. Air Trick is a teleport. Same appearance as Vergil's, proved by the momentum/mid air break issue, its re-entry and that he can do it in mid air. Youve yet to prove that Dante cant go from 0 to hypersonic, remember; its your claim. So yes, if* Kain grabs Dante with TK he can simply 'Port away.
*Thats if Kain can catch Dante who, even as a mere Ma1, vastly outclasses Kain's reactions and speed. And if Kain will risk standing there trying while the others are attacking him.

The first Dante vs Nero fight. You claim that Dante is only Mach 1, I could spend some time re-telling you how wrong you are.. or I could just go with it for a sec and ask: How on Earth is Kain going to react to Mach 1 movements?

Nephthys

Ok, time for Nephthys' Super-Serious Mode.

Originally posted by Burning thought
laughing

since when is saying "I belive he misjudged the calculation" a pesonal attack? If anything, your the only one who makes personal attacks or trolls out of the two of us. Disprove what? I disproved it as soon as I pointed out the faulty logic behind it....how is that so hard to understand? also stop straw manning me.

Its not a source tbh, no more than me making a website where I claim Kain is a God who can take out universes with his sneezes....it holds no weight because its made by posters who may be just as equelly bias as anyone on here if not more. Also, assuming you like this source, I gues that means you agree Kain has hypersonic+ reactions and can afterall react to dante, therefore making this debate between us useless? Kain does exactly what I said he would do by your source, and logic in general both.

Again, you sort of just ignored the debate then re-stated your opinion, unproven might I add. Even if we had the "Mach speed" proven for Dante, we dont have a momentum where he can run from, you dont have much to suggest he can blitz anyone at the moment.

Show me, show me this "break", because it seems like your reaching. How can you have a break between Dante saying he hates his brother and attacking to the friction clash scene? You cant....they have literally taken a piece out of the cutscene.

Since you asked, I would have to say since you tried to dismiss arguments with that line of reasoning. And considering the feat in question still being argued in that respect thread you said you wouldn't argue in I'd say that you did not disprove diddily squat.

I never claimed that it was a source. Please do not put words into my mouth. All I said was that logically, when two different, non-alligned people calculate a feat and arrive at corresponding conclusions that in some way adds credence to the idea that they are both right, as they mutually support each other. And since I've seen nothing that supports Kain being hypersonic, no, I do not think that. As I said I'm not using it as a source and I assure you that every time I've used the OBD I've actually gone the extra mile and googled the information it refers to, i.e. looked up the source myself. I don't blindly claim things based off of it, nor do I think I'd make that my practise in the future.

I believe the evidence as been presented to you in sufficient amounts that it would make it unnecessary for me to replicate doing as such. I don't get where you are getting this notion that Dante needs to build up momentum to increase his speed. He certainly never displayed such a weakness during the numerous scenes Bloodrain has provided you where he has moved with superspeed and gotten into 'Super-Speed Mode' instantaneously. Such as in the Alastor scene, where the falling glass slows to a crawl as soon as Dante starts to swing the sword.

Well there are two possible points where there could be a cut. The first could be at 3.52 of the Dante vs Vergil video when Dante runs at Vergil and then we cut to their swords clashing. The fight could easily have taken place between said cut.

gQeRRZv8YcM#t=3m14s

The second could be at 1.24 of the Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening intro when we cut from a shot of Dante and Vergil locking swords to a close up of then again locking swords. It could be argued that this close up did not immediately proceed the first shot and that the rest of the scene happened off camera for the sake of brevity.

lVtVkmTQbxY

Of course you'll argue the likelihood of my claims but nontheless this establishes that you have no call to dismiss the intro as an explanation does exist that enables the two scenes to be mutually established.

Burning thought

Originally posted by BloodRain

Show me how you got the "dilated" speed? specifically.

IMe not assuming anything, ime pointing out that theres no facts concerning how fast or slow certain helicopters went, logically speaking half of the areas you travel, those with copters in have high buildings, higher than the copters themselves are flying at the time and also, they seem to iirc speed up when they leave Mercer (assuming he avoided them and went to hide) when they leave the setting. Theres no case here for him chaseing after them at 200 mph.

Barely wins? lol, Kain just one shots Raziel, after getting hit in the face or eyes or w/e, no real damage and its been conned, then weve got the Defiance scene, we dont know what Raziel used to weaken Kain, he has vastly more powers at his disposal than mercer though and the fact he has the wraith blade on his arm at the end kinda implies he was using it before the final strike as well.....

Erm no, sorry. No feat for Dante, you cant claim Dante can do everything better, Dante simply defeated Vergil, Vergil was corrupted, not Dante, he wasnt even influenced by Mundus tbh.

Because Kain does not hook onto a soul and physically drag it out, it devours it fully on the spiritual plane without giving kratos any time to wonder where his soul has gone.

How does he know? he calculates where his next dimention port is going to be which is a combination of decision and error correction (these people are still moving, kain hasnt time stopped them), he then appears and chooses a strike which is different depending on where Kain appears from, humans on the other hand can sit there, know somethings going to happen and react to visual and movement stimulai, as well as sound at once, kain has nothing before the 0.1/0.2 second he appears.

Ifrit is a demon weapon, wielded by Dante, why wouldnt it wreck them? Does ifrit simply melt them then? because iirc you fight them like most enemies, you cant just melt them with ifrit. youve not seen the reaver strike anyone other than maybe the Sarafan lord and Kain. Excuse me? how is Zeus stronger than chronos? and even then, 1 square mm vs the area of a punch? a square inch or two?

So its area is about the same as Kains time powers, whcih woudlnt work beyond a room so unless Kain is well within Dantes range anywhere, or the other characters he cant solely rely on QS. Also where are you getting 1/1000 from? it looks more or less exactly the same on living entities. laughing

doesnt hold water, Dante doesnt have to build momentum for speed now? just because Superman in smallville doesnt have to? or metro man? is this your logic? you know, theres probably a fallacy for that but I cba to look it up. Maybe if we can use other fictions to apprently add abilities to characters ill drag up every vampire movie and see if I can get some new powers for kain?

Do "whatever he likes"?, no its not plenty of time, Kain has to move his hand idly, even in slow motion thats not going to be hard and further, Kains going to, as per reaction start moving before Dantes brain calculates, moving his head a few inches doesnt give him mach speed reaction.

Air trick like most of trickster abilities seem purely based off speed, the description for trickster is "Aim above an enemy's head and disappear in the blink of an eye with blindingly quick movements", so its speed, not teleport. Also thats a negative, I dont have to prove Dante cannot go from zero to hypersonic, you have to prove he can, which is the positive. You cant claim, "well you cant prove he cant!" for everything, no more than I can say "you cant prove Kain cant go light speed!" and claim he was just jobbing and not trying through the game like you seem to think Dante does.

Well if i do a Neph, Kains got hypersonic+ reactions, second, supersonic from certain distance is easily reacted to, like I said before concerning irl jets, they go supersonic but you can easily see them in the sky because of the distance, if you cant see or perceive them then airshows would be pretty shit. In this case, Dante is reacting at about 0.3, he can taking into account momentum probably start about 100-200 mph running speed if that although I would doubt that, Kain has to shake his hand...Dantes feet are not on the ground...game set and match. Then Kain drinks his blood and blitzes the rest of the people with his newfound speed.

Originally posted by Nephthys

People argue thngs regardless of how disproven they are.

They say a load of ridiculous bs on that site, including Kain at hypersonic+ reactions and that Kratos would be beaten by Rexar out of rug rats... so your logic really is that this is a good source because there just happens to be a calc in it that seems similiar/the same as this one? By people who may be just as misguided?

The Alastor scene is not really speed though as I said before, fallacy ad nauseum Neph? Second, assuming it was, for one second...this is a special power from a special sword, not Dante using his regular devil power. Also we dont see him build up or start that rain scene either, thats not momentum or running though, your claiming he can run at mach 1-mach 15 just because he can trade blows that may be at mach 15, its not the same thing. Weve never actually seen Dante run at more than peak human speed beyond the DMC 3 tower scene where he gets given motion before he speeds himself up....

What do you mean? theres no cut at that point in the video, their just stareing at eachother for a split second befere they clash, I thought you were actually going to point out points in these vids where there seems to be a change of scene or cut in the cinematic like gameplay...

Everything before the frictional hit, where their swords heat and it gets launched into the air, and Dante impaled was changed to Dante and Vergil talking. Theres no way you could somehow edge in/assume you can slot in this other scene at some point just because you belive it should be there. It was, like DMc is known for a flashy, "cool" scene shown early in the intro, which is taken out for actual storyline.

Also explain how Beowulf, Vergil and even lady can tag/hit dante with their slow attacks if he can react/move at mach 15? so many levels beyond he would even need to dodge said moves?

Theres also the fact Kain has surprise, and Dante does not have precog.

Until the momentum thing is sorted out, Dantes speed at max is irrelevent, as are his reactions compared to Kains. even in slow mo, Kain only needs a fraction of a second, or slowed down, a couple of seconds to jiggle his fingers...and Dantes feet are off the ground, he cant build momentum or run at Kain if he cant touch the floor.

Also dodging bullets is not the same as dodging sowrds, sowrds being many many times longer/larger, the fact he just moved out of the way, with an inch or two to spare proves that if it was a sword aiming for his chest or such he wouldnt have been quick enough. Theres also the fact that Dantes strength isnt all that high so whats he going to do if he gets to Kain? impale him? great...he will lose his sword because even his soft flesh is hard to pull the sword from, let alone Kains super dimamond alloy alike+ skin. Also, when he slashes humans, they react as if their hit by a peak human at best by getting knocked a meter or so and Kiris brother just got up after the slash so wheres this E10 force? Kain does not canonically slash humans in such a manner so theres no double standard there, not to mension most of these bullet feats can be brought down to the fact a gun is a weapon of obvious intent, it can be assumed where the bullets are going to go from where the user is pointing so you can "predict" with bullets and not need to be able to avoid much in the process (a tiny piece of metal). Its not like dodging a sword.

What are Nero's guns made out of as well? because Dante brings his whole sword down on one and it just bounces off....if your claiming dante has more strength than Raziel, and less surface area on his sword edge then your saying neros guns apprently are forged in some sort of human metal that can take multiples times earth core pressure, if not tens if not hundrreds of times if you think Dante scales so highly.....Occam just rolled over.

BloodRain

"Dante does not have precog."

Besides him dodging Lady's bullet and slashing her rocket without looking at either, countering Arkham's sneak attack, all supersonic+ so its not sound reaction. And knowing Nelo was approaching.

"when he slashes humans, they react as if their hit by a peak human at best"
"because Dante brings his whole sword down on one and it just bounces off"

Not the best claims youve made. Why assume that Dante is going to use his full force against weakass demons when that was all that was needed? A carpenter doesnt use max strength to hammer in a nail like how you wouldnt use full force when play fighting with your nephew. He was acting as he was in the anime. Same with Nero, already being covered by the Devs stating he was just toying with Nero.

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(Real speed/Dilated speed) confused

To expand; if a sprinter runs past you at 10m/s, but to you he appears to be moving at 1m/s then the dilation is makes it so everything is moving at 1/10th its actual speed. In other words everything should be moving 10 times faster. So any movements you makes are really 10m times faster. So if you were to make a 5m/s movement during this dilation that movement is really 50m/s.

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Fact: Thats their top speed. Fact: Blackwatch will do /anything/ to catch Mercer. And no time that I recall was I pursued by a copter when it wasnt above the buildings or through the 20m gaps between buildings to where the blades are only 10 in diameter, plenty of room to navigate. I cant remember, have you given a solid reason to why they would not want to give full chase?

Yes, after a fight where Raziel with claws alone where Kain was so even that in physical confrontation he ends up being the one in pain. Canonly Kain only stuck Raziel after the fight as thats an event, and Raziel had no weapon to block with. So Raziel's speed and strength alone was enough to stalemate Kain.

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Hmmm, would you look at that.. turns out I can. Twin brothers, same blood, same powers, same abilities... oh but this one thing /must/ be different? Ok, go ahead and prove that theyre different.

Theres also what happens when you try to absorb Dante's blood and soul.

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Who cares? A soul resistance feat is a soul resistance feat. No one in LoK has any soul resistance feats, that points to Kratos fairing better than anyone from the verse against the Reaver.

Several of those LoK characters were stabbed by the Reaver. And the Sarafan lord was almost beaten to death by the time he was stabbed.

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Occam's says he thinks "need to port there, then slash" unless you have something that says its the kinda complex method you suggest for this.

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Because Alastor, a demon weapon, wielded by Dante, doesnt. 'ang on a sec, are you trying to argue the the statements are wrong because they didnt create a whole new death animation for it? Impervious to volcanic fire, weak to higher realms of incendiary like Ifrit. Its like the difference between the water and lava to us.

Youre right, supposed to say equal to. Kratos' strength matched Cronos', Zeus matches his. SA used for the tip, 0.000001m^2. SA of a fist, 0.005m^2. 1/5000th the area, so Zeus would have to be 5,000 times stronger than Kain for his punches to have the same pressure. In other words a 9.35e9 N punch has the same pressure as Kain's stab. For a sense of scale thats a character 156x stronger than Link. And I dont think I have to convince you that Kratos is easily above that.

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If he can stop people 100+m away then yes. I doubt that there will be a moment where anyone is more than 100m, the length of a football pitch, away from Dante. Two differences to Kain and Dante's time power; Kain takes a second to activate his, both of Dante is nigh instantaneous. The other is that like Dante's Chrono Heart, the only way to find the dilation of the Time Fragment is through gameplay, at best 1/5th. The benefit Quicksilver has is it comes with a cutscene in which shows rocks falling 10m/s minimum appearing to move a cm per second. At least 1/1000th normal speed.
Also someone else brought it up but I didnt take second notice til I saw it now, when its activated why does Kain himself move slightly slower? As everything appears 5 times slower, Kain himself appears at half his speed . So really, Kain's dilation is 1/2.5. What a strange feature...

No what doesnt hold water is how you have nothing to suggest that such a common speed asset wont effect Dante. As said in the other thread, you believe that Dante is the exception to this superhuman speed rule and for some reason despite his supersonic speed wont have acceleration above a greyhound, so go and prove your claim.

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Im afraid it is. You see, even with both time powers up, ignoring that Dante can use a second one, Kain will still be moving at 1/200-400th his normal speed . Kains 0.1 reactions will appear to take 20-40 whole seconds. Like this even a human can blitz him by walking. Kinda funny, Kain will think and move that takes 0.3s total before Dante's brain can process information? So in your mind Dante has 0.5s visual reactions? So not a peak 0.1s, an average 0.2s or a slower minded 0.3s... no, you think Kain's peak human mind and movements can be done before Dante can think. So the supersonic Dante has the mental speed below that of a mentally retarded child? no expression

Not that irs needed for this level of claims, but Just Block/Release state that Dante has to act 1/10th of a second before an enemy attacks. Thats >peak easily to say nothing his speed.

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Most of Trickster? Only Dash and Sky star Star, the air version of Dash, are based around speed. To quote Trickster; "Style that allows the player to avoid enemy attacks using special evasive movements." Trickster is about evasion, not pure speed. And like I just said to which Im sure youre ignoring; "Same appearance as Vergil's, proved by the momentum/mid air break issue, its re-entry and that he can do it in mid air."
You dont have to prove the claims you make? Interesting. If you recall, its your claim. Your claim he cant do it. Your claim his superhuman/supersonic/hypersonic acceleration is below that of a normal greyhound. Your claim that Dante is an exception to what all other superspeed characters can do. For instance; Hey BT, prove that Raziel can put his full obelisk-tipping force into a strike. And prove that Kain can instantly gather his full strength. Asking you to prove a positive, a positive with no base claim, logical reasoning or anything to think that he cant.

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Thats a poor impression, you didnt add any cutesy remarks that she would mmm.

Neph iirc said that if more than one person (in this case 4 different people) do a calc and come up with the same answer, it says that its credible. Ya see, Ive actually investigated that hypersonic claim and the person who made it; A random LoK fan who said that because one of his special attacks looks fast. And if I remember someone then compared it to Dante's gameplay attack as a sort of proof. So no. And supersonic Jets look slower from a considerable distance. At best 0.1 RT can react to Mach 1 from 34m away, to be able to tag him with peak speed it will have to be from 68m away.. And thats if the Mach 1 person was spotted before traveled in a straight line. Both things being unlikely for any character not slow in the head. Oh, and airshows /are/ pretty shit ;3

For lack of a better term, what youre doing is Anti-Fan Wank (C) to assume;
- That Dante has the visual reactions of a slow human.
- That a 20m/s greyhound can get to max in a second, yet a Mach 1 character will somehow take longer.
- That Kain's mere human reactions could tag a supersonic foe.
- That Kain will somehow gain Dante's speed from drinking his blood no expression

And this is why;
- It doesnt take a genius to understand that a supersonic being will have adequate reactions. To assume that someone like Dante has reactions below the average human is utterly ridicules. How many slow minded humans do you know that can react to a Mach 2 bullet shot 2m from their head?
- Besides it being blindingly obvious to anyone that you just made up this momentum claim. A claim that that only holds to a minuscule minority that you refuse to say how it applies to Dante. And for some reason thinking that a superhuman thats far stronger and faster than a dog will have less acceleration.
- He can tag a sonic being in the same way a human can catch a bullet...
- To think that Kain can somehow drink demon blood and gain abilities that are not specific Dark Gifts of the character. And to think that trying to absorb Dante wont make Kain suffer the same fate as Alice in the manga.

Burning thought

Originally posted by BloodRain

"dodging" lady's bullet, lady is like the worst shot in DMC, she fires a hail of bullets at one point and does not get a single shot on Dante iirc. And thats not supersonic+ or proof of precog.

So he uses less than human force or what? he could barely cut things up in the intro and those were weakass demons. "toying" is not the same as saying everything in the fight was Dante at his worst and Nero at his best, Neros devil arm is more powerful than anything dantes done.

Again, baseless claims. Your using motive for someone to claim a feat, thats useless, its only barely logical. Yes they "may" stop at nothing but thats just a claim, theres no real speed there.

Also how do you know all this? when we dont see it happe? amazing....we know his final attack was with the wraith blade.

Erm no you cant, your making up feats and then pretending they all have the same power set. Again, nonsense.

No, it points to him being great against the reaver if it had to physically draw your soul out.

How can he "think" that in .3 seconds, apprently you think hes capable of concious thought during this, not just stimulai? probably a better feat than i would give him.

Kratos' strength matches, more or less Chronos playfully prodding him with his finger and laughing at Kratos' counters does not= same strength, you dont seem to know much on GoW, infact your only area of knowledge so far seems to be DMC.

Show me your sources on rocks of that weight falling such, then show me cutscene caps of this, then prove that stopping rocks is the same as stopping living entites.

Sorry, no feat. Just you complaining, you dont have a feat for Dante so your back is up against a wall and you cant seem to figuire a way to counter me here other than try and use other peoples feats as Dantes, its like Dante is inadequate but this cant bet true, so you have to try and play the idea he has other peoples powers or something? weird.....

Well they wont because 0.1 is faster than Dantes, so Kain will already be wiggling his hands no doubt before Dante has processed. Also, decision making is done at more than 0.1, what the hell....your source even points out that error correction or decision making can create even more time, further what movement is Dante reacting to? nothing, hes percieving Kain but not reacting or decision making until hes got the thoughts going. Then hes got to build up momentum to cover an area, Kains got to wiggle his hand, Dante has to sprint or walk across tens of meters at least....hes going to be floating in the air, doing acrobatics on kains whim before he knows it.

laughing

Again with the Vergil BS comparisons, Vergil does not use trickster style, he has his own which iirc is a teleport. Dante has no telepor,t he has speed.

No, Ive yet to see Dante with beyond human decision making powers, he can make some quick movements in short range but hes never made a vast number of decisions like Kain has to in the port.

-Kain does not have to tag, only wave his hand, Dante has to tag to hope for a wound though.

Also bullshit on the "reacted to the bullet", as if Nero pointing a gun so closely would not allow Dante to see Nero or his trigger finger. If anything, based on Dantes face it looks like he just moved in time, as if his reactions cought up and he ducked slightly to avoid. Thats apprently giving Dante mach 15 running speed now? laughing

I dont have to say a physical function applies to Dante, you have to prove that common sense is wrong and that Dant has feats for this special power your making up.

Why would Kain suffer the same fate? youve not really given any context, has it worked on udnead vamps before? Kains mind is vastly stronger than the average, it seems Alice from her hunger is not some advanced being of mental high capacity anyway. And Demon blood? Hyldens are more or less as close to "DMC" demons as one can get, Kains proven he can drink from beings of an opposite counter spiecies to his own and still gain their powers so Dantes physical speed is no question tbh.

So far youve not countered-

Momentum, youve claimed incredously that Dante "obviously" can run at mach speeds instantly? prove it...while your doing that watch DMC 3;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZrVs4pfvVw&feature=related#t=13m5s

Why does he have to slowly gain on his supersonic sword? why cant he, ala BR's theories of "always proveness by his own claims" just instantly go to mach speed and snatch the sword out of the air? oh no...he cant, he has to slowly gain on it, it took him a few seconds of the videos time to catch it as well....

Tbh, ive yet to even see Dante go mach speed on foot, youve made silly stripulations on how he can run at the same speed he moves his arms as if hes physically creating energy like a human being.

Youve also not countered Kains TK, on the slightest whim/hand movement Dante is off the floor and Kains finishing this thread quite easily after that. Hell, Kain could if he really wants to avoid quicksiver just turn to mist and fly into the air, Dante wastes his best weapon and has nothing to harm Kain in such a form. Until you prove the above, Tk on a whim is all Kain needs.

Also wtf bringing up ifrit, a weapon he gained years ago as if its standard equipment.