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Both at their best who wins this and how ?

LT

Originally posted by guy222
LT

Not too familiar with Mandrakk.

What's he capable of again? And what's his durability like?

Living Tribunal wins.

Originally posted by Glorificus
Not too familiar with Mandrakk.

What's he capable of again? And what's his durability like?

He's Multiversal, able to slap away the DCU with a nere gesture if he wanted too.

Feeds on the very concept of fictions in the DCU.

Feat and hype wise, he's far above the LT.

Originally posted by SquallX
He's Multiversal, able to slap away the DCU with a nere gesture if he wanted too.

Feeds on the very concept of fictions in the DCU.

Feat and hype wise, he's far above the LT. LT builds the Cosmic Armor...

Originally posted by Uriel005
LT builds the Cosmic Armor...

Putting aside whether the LT has the raw power to beat Mandrakk, building the Cosmic armor isn't enough.

It required a user whose story was too great to fail (i.e. Superman).

Originally posted by Cogito
It required a user whose story was too great to fail (i.e. Superman).

The LT introduces Mandrakk to Steven Grant Rogers.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The LT introduces Mandrakk to Steven Grant Rogers.

I'm failing to find the quote I wanted, but IIRC it wasn't just that Superman is a perfect hero etc., it had to do with his upbringing and past and virtues and all that.

I don't know, Steve's great and all but I don't think he fits the bill.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The LT introduces Mandrakk to Steven Grant Rogers.
Steve would fail. There is no ultraman for cap.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Steve would fail. There is no ultraman for cap.

Was Ultraman actually needed? I need to reread that shit.

^ Ultraman was needed to broadcast Superman's essence to a higher dimension. Fused symmetries:

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/th_11.jpg http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/th_12.jpg


But it was Superman's "unstoppable/indestructible" story, and Superman's "unstoppable/indestructible" story alone, harnessed in conjunction with the CA, that was able to overcome Mandrakk:

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/th_21.jpg

Superman literally had the most powerful story in creation. That's why it could only be him.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Ultraman was needed to broadcast Superman's essence to a higher dimension. Fused symmetries:

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/th_11.jpg http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/th_12.jpg


But it was Superman's "unstoppable/indestructible" story, and Superman's "unstoppable/indestructible" story alone, harness in conjunction with the CA, that was able to overcome Mandrakk:

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/th_21.jpg

Superman literally had the most powerful story in creation. That's why it could only be him.
But Steve Rogers is actually American.

Superman is an illegal.

mmm









umm









Touche. ermmnone

Freedom prevails.

http://www.puppstheories.com/spriterips/CaptAmericaEagle16f.gif

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Freedom prevails.

http://www.puppstheories.com/spriterips/CaptAmericaEagle16f.gif SoB got me there.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Ultraman was needed to broadcast Superman's essence to a higher dimension. Fused symmetries:

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/th_11.jpg http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/th_12.jpg


But it was Superman's "unstoppable/indestructible" story, and Superman's "unstoppable/indestructible" story alone, harnessed in conjunction with the CA, that was able to overcome Mandrakk:

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/th_21.jpg

Superman literally had the most powerful story in creation. That's why it could only be him.

Never thought of it that way, but it's true.

I'm not half the Superman fanboy I used to be, but there's no denying he was pretty much to comic book heroes as Doom, Pacman, or Space Invaders is to modern gaming..

Spiderman > Superman

Originally posted by Mindset
Spiderman > Superman

I like to think of Spidey as the Day of the Tentacle of comics.

What about Hulk?

Or Wolverine?

I'm thinking in terms of impact and overall story, even if they're ridiculously overexposed characters.. But so is Supes.

Spiderman is the biggest Marvel hero w/o a question.

He plays a part in almost every major event.

Swag.

Even more than the Fantastic Four, or Thor?

But that's a good way to look at it.. It's kind of telling on Supes importance to DCU when a big point of Underworld Unleashed is "Major crossover without Superman in it!"

Yes, because he's in more than they are.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Ultraman was needed to broadcast Superman's essence to a higher dimension. Fused symmetries:

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/th_11.jpg http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/th_12.jpg


But it was Superman's "unstoppable/indestructible" story, and Superman's "unstoppable/indestructible" story alone, harnessed in conjunction with the CA, that was able to overcome Mandrakk:

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/th_21.jpg

Superman literally had the most powerful story in creation. That's why it could only be him.

That's the scan I was looking for

Waiting for Mindset to come in stating that Doom dreamed the story and had Kyle create it.

I didn't think it needed to be said.

Come now... You know we all have certain expectations for eachother on this site. Quan has his Thanos.

You have Kyle and Doom.

Mine's the Flash

Bada... will be Bada...

etc etc.

lol

Originally posted by guy222
LT

It comes down to the chicken or egg question:

Did the Primal Monitor create the Presence, who created the DCU, or did the Presence create the Primal Monitor as part of his plan for creating the DCU?

If I had to guess, I'd say the Primal Monitor is the sentient void the DCU is contained in.. Which would really make it >>>>> even the Presence..

didn't morrison write that storyline

Yes he did, and Mandrakk too.

i liked his here comes tomorrow storyline in x-men better

Originally posted by Mindset
Spiderman is the biggest Marvel hero w/o a question.

He plays a part in almost every major event.

Swag. What about Wolvy? In 4 teams at the same time + his own comic.

Originally posted by Damborgson
What about Wolvy? In 4 teams at the same time + his own comic.

Wasn't he literally in everything at one point?

Every cover Marvel put out had him on it?

Wolverine doesn't come close to having the "ultimate story" or being the "ultimate hero".

In Marvel, it's likely Steve Rogers, Spider-Man, or Reed Richards.

Originally posted by cdtm
If I had to guess, I'd say the Primal Monitor is the sentient void the DCU is contained in.. That's exactly what it is:

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/5461/45906189.th.jpg http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2971/99322637.th.jpg

...So that was a good guess.


But in a more 'direct' sense, I think the PM was meant to represent the canvas/medium through which real world comic writers are able to illustrate their thoughts--essentially, it is the blank pages of actual comic books. Perhaps that's why Mandrakk was obliterated so completely (to the point that the very idea of his story was lost) when he fell into the Overvoid--the mind of Monitor:

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7149/91729555.th.jpg

How the hell did any of u understand most final crisis. Im not kidding when i say it was the most confusing book i have ever read. The only reason i know what was going on is from plot synopsis and here, and i own almost every crisis comic

Originally posted by Raptor22
How the hell did any of u understand most final crisis. Im not kidding when i say it was the most confusing book i have ever read. The only reason i know what was going on is from plot synopsis and here, and i own almost every crisis comic

It helps if you think of FC as a story about a story. Morrison usually lays the metaphysics on thick, like in his Doom Patrol run.=, where an entire fictional universe was unraveled simply by dropping a logic bomb on it's inhabitants about how they can't possibly exist..

Yeah, read Doom Patrol. It's even MORE confusing.

Not only was Morrison's stint on Doom Patrol exceedingly confusing at times, but it just... Wasn't good. Opposite side of the coin: the Superman Beyond issues may have been somewhat confusing, but they were also some of the best comics I've ever read.

...Funny thing about Morrison is that it's easy to figure out when he was experimenting with drugs. His runs on Doom Patrol and Animal Man are proof enough of that.

Originally posted by Raptor22
How the hell did any of u understand most final crisis. Im not kidding when i say it was the most confusing book i have ever read. The only reason i know what was going on is from plot synopsis and here, and i own almost every crisis comic I just looked at the pictures and made up my own dialog.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not only was Morrison's stint on Doom Patrol exceedingly confusing at times, but it just... Wasn't good. Opposite side of the coin: the Superman Beyond issues may have been somewhat confusing, but they were also some of the best comics I've ever read.

...Funny thing about Morrison is that it's easy to figure out when he was experimenting with drugs. His runs on Doom Patrol and Animal Man are proof enough of that.

I had a hard time following Doom Patrol. Eventually just lost interest..

But I've seen it and Animal Man treated as a holy grail of comics enough times, where I wondered if it was just me.

DP did have its moments.. I liked the Crazy Jane character, and Mr. Nobody and the Brotherhood of Dada was fun.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not only was Morrison's stint on Doom Patrol exceedingly confusing at times, but it just... Wasn't good. Opposite side of the coin: the Superman Beyond issues may have been somewhat confusing, but they were also some of the best comics I've ever read.

...Funny thing about Morrison is that it's easy to figure out when he was experimenting with drugs. His runs on Doom Patrol and Animal Man are proof enough of that.

Actually it's because of Morrison that i fell in love with Animal man. No homo.

Originally posted by Galan007

...Funny thing about Morrison is that it's easy to figure out when he was experimenting with drugs. His runs on Doom Patrol and Animal Man are proof enough of that. Invisibles.

Does anyone seriously believe he wasn't under the influence of something when he wrote FC?

Grant Morrison conducts interviews and claims he's a wizard who is protecting us from the horrors of the multiverse. I think that speaks for itself.

As far as Final Crisis goes, I personally had to re-read it and its tie-ins several times in order to "get" it. I think in terms of a story/event, it was really good, but not appropriate for a "summer blockbuster" event, imo. Not saying that those kind of events need to be dumbed down, but the event was really off putting for a lot of comic book fans.

I believe Morrison stories are completely coherent. An unanswered question or two now and then are merely facets of his storytelling that are either A) irrelevant to the overall story or B) to be answered later, or were answered previous in the reading though you didn't recognize it for what it was.

Although I admit I don't always have the answer to every question in all of his stories, I've yet to consider myself confused by any of them.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Grant Morrison conducts interviews and claims he's a wizard who is protecting us from the horrors of the multiverse. I think that speaks for itself.

As far as Final Crisis goes, I personally had to re-read it and its tie-ins several times in order to "get" it. I think in terms of a story/event, it was really good, but not appropriate for a "summer blockbuster" event, imo. Not saying that those kind of events need to be dumbed down, but the event was really off putting for a lot of comic book fans. It wasn't really a blockbuster event, it was an event by Morrison however, who is most often considered among the top 5 or 10 guys among writers in the history of the medium, and that is enough to warrant to the attention. However, the sheer scale of it was beyond epic.

Originally posted by Mindset
I just looked at the pictures and made up my own dialog. even alot of the pictures confused me. What the hell was that giant bloody wheel.

Originally posted by Juntai
It wasn't really a blockbuster event, it was an event by Morrison however, who is most often considered among the top 5 or 10 guys among writers in the history of the medium, and that is enough to warrant to the attention. However, the sheer scale of it was beyond epic.

It was promoted as a blockbuster huge DC event, though. DC went out of their way to even make apparel for the event and the like. The fact that a lot of people couldn't go out, pick up the book, and fully enjoy it as a stand alone event was something that a lot of comic shop owners have mentioned. The quality of the event is without question, obviously, it just wasn't as easily accessible to a majority of people like most events are.

I don't think I was necessarily confused by what Morrison wrote in FC, though I thought he went a bit out there at times, as if he told himself "no, this isn't psychadelically f*cked up crazy enough... i need MOAR!", and so on.

I thought Revelations (iirc the title, the one about the Spectre), was an outstanding book, with very rich themes and content.

Superman Beyond? Arguably the best Superman comics of the decade, imo.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't think I was necessarily confused by what Morrison wrote in FC, though I thought he went a bit out there at times, as if he told himself "no, this isn't psychadelically f*cked up crazy enough... i need MOAR!", and so on.

I thought Revelations (iirc the title, the one about the Spectre), was an outstanding book, with very rich themes and content.

Superman Beyond? Arguably the best Superman comics of the decade, imo.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It was promoted as a blockbuster huge DC event, though. DC went out of their way to even make apparel for the event and the like. The fact that a lot of people couldn't go out, pick up the book, and fully enjoy it as a stand alone event was something that a lot of comic shop owners have mentioned. The quality of the event is without question, obviously, it just wasn't as easily accessible to a majority of people like most events are. I have a Final Crisis shirt. Like a Boss.


The event was an event for comic readers, not everyone else. It was still better as an event than say- well, I was writing out a bunch of Marvel and DC events here, and realized it's just better than most 'event' books at the end of the day. There's very few that stand up next to it in my mind. It would much shorter to name a few of the ones that do.

I'm unsure, have any of you seen the Mindscape of Alan Moore? What he describes in there for the Watchmen, is what Grant Morrison did line-wide for DC. The world that was presented didn't seem to hang together in terms of linear cause and effect, but was instead shown as a massively complex simultaneous event. Where the reactions and relationships of even the smallest character upon farther review of the storytelling have increasingly larger effect in an increasingly complex world. Many of the characters were brought down to a very base and decidedly 'human' level, and had to persevere and survive as mythological human character might.. and ultimately prevail with some sacrifices. Many events 'tried' to pull off linewide events, none succeeded nearly as well as this one at it.

Now, I still maintain, whether this "new 52' is a completely new Universe that they want us to believe or not, one day, it will all lead back to that day, and you'll remember what happened the day evil won, the day the Batman died, the day that Martian Manhunter died, and so on.

Final Crisis was definitely intended as a blockbuster event. After all, the Countdown series was given its name because it was meant as the "Countdown to Final Crisis"... You don't devote a 50+ issue preliminary series to an event if it's not meant to be a blockbuster.

Either way, I still feel that FC as a whole was an amazing series. The main title was a bit rushed at the end (another few issues would have helped that tremendously), but it was still very good. And the tie-ins (ie. Superman Beyond, Revelations, Rogues Revenge, Lo3W, etc.) were all extremely well done--arguably better than the main title. All in all, it was a superb read, imo. Truly a 'thinking man's' series.

Originally posted by Cogito
Putting aside whether the LT has the raw power to beat Mandrakk, building the Cosmic armor isn't enough.

It required a user whose story was too great to fail (i.e. Superman).

Nobody beats Superman level PIS lol

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Nobody beats Superman level PIS lol

It's not pis

It's just that all bows down to the Superman aura.

Morrison was on something alright. Final Crisis looked like a something Hollywood would do. The whole channel surfing thing and the involvement of two main event villains reminded me of the Batman movies. Final Crisis should have been separate from Superman Beyond. Beyond can easily stand alone without being a part of Final Crisis. Morrison could change the bits about Darkseid's downfall freeing Mandrakk and Beyond would still come out looking good. Or Mandrakk's death should have ended in Beyond and not dragged into the main FC title. Would be more interesting if it was just Superman who knew of the greater threat of Mandrakk to the whole DC, while everyone else kept thinking Darkseid was their greatest threat. A type of secret war/mission that only Superman and the other Supermen knew about. FC suffered at the end especially when the GL's and everybody attacked Mandrakk as if they knew who this being was all along. Traveled a long distance to earth to fight a mad god, end up staking a vampire you never met instead. WTF??? It's sad that Crisis should have been Darkseid's event and instead turned into the Mandrakk show. Superman singing Darkseid's spirit was retarded. The Pax Dei using their divine powers and the GL using the willing power to destroy the Darkseid's spirit would make more sense.

Yeah, this was a blockbuster event that should have been an elseworld or at least put together better. The only explanation for FC 6's ending was because they wanted Beyond and Legion to be directly involved in Final Crisis. All of FC Legion had nothing to do with FC at all save the Miracle Machine at the end. Beyond had nothing really to do with FC save the part about Darkseid's fall helping release Mandrakk, which could be changed to a number of other reasons if they wanted to. That's how Darkseid's story got pushed aside so they can shove a Mandrakk ending in and say, hey look, Superman Beyond and Legions of 3 Worlds did matter to Final Crisis in the end!!

imo, morrison goofed

was he on something who knows

i believed it sold well gotta ask my dc friends