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1. No God Slayer for Gamora
2. Gamora has the god slayer

This is the most powerful version of Sabretooth (strength enhancements with adamantium skeleton and claws) against the strength enhanced version of Gamora.


Debate.

Gamora was kicking Ronan's ass, so I'm going to take her for a solid majority.

Gamora was holding her own against a jobbing Ronan who didn't remember how to use the Universal Weapon. Sabretooth would have done as well or better a fight with Ronan if he fought like that.

Creed wins. Gamora's healing factor isn't fast enough to cope with his damage output. I don't want to theorize on the hypothetical abilities of Godslayer but right now the only thing it has ever done of note... is break on Thanos.

*Sigh*

I like Gamora (maybe to much) and I feel she is above Sabretooth. I give her the small majority 6/10 without the God Slayer and give her a stomp over Sabes with it.

Gamora wins 10/10.

∞/10 if she had Godslayer.

I'd love for someone to explain the reasoning behind Godslayer increasing her chance of victory even .000001 of a percent. Is it the name? Is that all it takes? The only thing Godslayer has done is break off of Thanos.... explain how that allows her to stop Sabretooth?

Creed stomps Gamora 10/10. Her healing factor isn't fast enough to keep her in the fight, he tags her once and she is pretty much done.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'd love for someone to explain the reasoning behind Godslayer increasing her chance of victory even .000001 of a percent. Is it the name? Is that all it takes? The only thing Godslayer has done is break off of Thanos.... explain how that allows her to stop Sabretooth?

Creed stomps Gamora 10/10. Her healing factor isn't fast enough to keep her in the fight, he tags her once and she is pretty much done. This... Though I feel she could take more than one shot from Creed she still has to fight fairly flawlessly to keep things competitive.

lol @ Creed even scratching her.

She tanked hits from Ronan's universal weapon and fought him on an even level, and she's done well against other high end bricks, a high meta like Creed won't even make her break a sweat.

At minimum, Godslayer is still a pretty tough sword. Having a sword is useful against Creed.

Yeah, I side with Gamora. Ronan isn't the only herald she's taken it to in hand to hand, she's just on another level.

Creed typically barrels in expecting to survive whatever he encounters, much like Wolverine, against someone like Gamora he'd get cut to ribbons, yeah, he'd heal eventually, but he'd still lose the fight.

About Gamora's HF, when wolverine and gamora met Wolverine was like "Damn, your healing factory just as good as mine!" or some shit.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'd love for someone to explain the reasoning behind Godslayer increasing her chance of victory even .000001 of a percent. Is it the name? Is that all it takes? The only thing Godslayer has done is break off of Thanos.... explain how that allows her to stop Sabretooth?

Creed stomps Gamora 10/10. Her healing factor isn't fast enough to keep her in the fight, he tags her once and she is pretty much done.
True.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
About Gamora's HF, when wolverine and gamora met Wolverine was like "Damn, your healing factory just as good as mine!" or some shit.

And she was koed by a single claw check to her stomach. Her healing factor isn't good enough to compensate for the type of damage characters like Creed and Wolverine dish out. In GotG it took her days to regenerate her outer epidermis after it was burnt away. She simply doesn't heal fast enough to get into a slug feats with Creed and come out on top. If Creed opens up her stomach she is finished, if he severs a tendon the appendage it governs is dead for the duration of the fight, if he severs an artery she bleeds out in under a minute, alternatively if Gamora does any of that to Creed he heals in seconds flat. Creed will tag her, she isn't fast enough or skilled enough to avoid him, and when he does she will be in all sorts of trouble... where as Creed can tank her attacks for a awhile before he starts to worry about his healing factor being overloaded. There is no rational train of though that results in Gamora being victorious.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And she was koed by a single claw check to her stomach. Her healing factor isn't good enough to compensate for the type of damage characters like Creed and Wolverine dish out. In GotG it took her days to regenerate her outer epidermis after it was burnt away. She simply doesn't heal fast enough to get into a slug feats with Creed and come out on top. If Creed opens up her stomach she is finished, if he severs a tendon the appendage it governs is dead for the duration of the fight, if he severs an artery she bleeds out in under a minute, alternatively if Gamora does any of that to Creed he heals in seconds flat. Creed will tag her, she isn't fast enough or skilled enough to avoid him, and when he does she will be in all sorts of trouble... where as Creed can tank her attacks for a awhile before he starts to worry about his healing factor being overloaded. There is no rational train of though that results in Gamora being victorious.

The thing that makes this a good fight is her skill advantage (she's trained to kill gods and herald level beings) and damage output. With Godslayer she can do some nasty things to Creed very quickly.

I don't know who wins this but I feel it isn't lopsided in any direction.

Originally posted by h1a8
The thing that makes this a good fight is her skill advantage (she's trained to kill gods and herald level beings) and damage output. With Godslayer she can do some nasty things to Creed very quickly.

I don't know who wins this but I feel it isn't lopsided in any direction.

There is a bigger skill gap between Wolverine and Creed, then there is between Gamora and Creed.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
There is a bigger skill gap between Wolverine and Creed, then there is between Gamora and Creed. I disagree, but it's not really relevant to the fight.

More important than Gamora's superior skill is her far superior strength. Creed may land at best a glancing claw strike, but nothing that would slow her down. Gamora on the other hand is what now, a class 50? I don't know where she was last ranked, but I do remember her fight with Ronan was shaking the landscape even miles away from where they were actually fighting. Prior to her latest upgrade, she was flipping tanks around for fun.

Unlike the bricks that Sabretooth and Logan usually face, Gamora will not only be able to hit hard but actually have the skill to make her strikes count, and follow up one brutal hit with another.

I don't really see Creed lasting all that long. Meh.

If Creed can beat Gamora, I'm changing my vote in that other thread to Danny Rand stomping her than.

Iron Fist is >>>>> Wolverine or Sabertooth.

Originally posted by cdtm
If Creed can beat Gamora, I'm changing my vote in that other thread to Danny Rand stomping her than.

Iron Fist is >>>>> Wolverine or Sabertooth.

Gamora can tank the Iron Fist with her blunt damage soak. She can't tank slashing / piercing damage from Wolverine or Creed.

Wolverine >>>>>>>>> Iron Fist. Creed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Iron Fist

You are really working hard to say something stupider than Batman would have trouble with Rocky boxers, huh?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine >>>>>>>>> Iron Fist

Originally posted by Existere
I disagree, but it's not really relevant to the fight.

More important than Gamora's superior skill is her far superior strength. Creed may land at best a glancing claw strike, but nothing that would slow her down. Gamora on the other hand is what now, a class 50? I don't know where she was last ranked, but I do remember her fight with Ronan was shaking the landscape even miles away from where they were actually fighting. Prior to her latest upgrade, she was flipping tanks around for fun.

Unlike the bricks that Sabretooth and Logan usually face, Gamora will not only be able to hit hard but actually have the skill to make her strikes count, and follow up one brutal hit with another.

I don't really see Creed lasting all that long. Meh.

The only person of any skill Gamora has ever fought was Wolverine. She didn't win. Other than that she has used a pressure point on Thing and Rage. Something she admitted she couldn't have done with Sasquatch restraining him, and coincided to Cyclops that she wouldn't have been able to do it to him either. Every top tier street level martial artist has better skill feats than Gamora.

How does Creed only land glancing blows? Ronan was landing flush on her in melee and he isn't exactly Bruce Lee. Gamora lacks the speed or the skill to avoid Creed in melee and tag him with unanswered shots. Her out-striking him at all is very unlikely.

The bricks that Wolverine and Creed usually fight hit them hard enough to liquify all their organs... how does Gamora "make her strikes count" more than that? Creed would fold Gamora up like a lawn chair and take her to soccer practice.

Originally posted by cdtm


Comic books. Read them.

I'd favor Gamora but Srank raises some good points regarding her healing factor. But her damage soak is pretty damn good. I doubt slashes are going to slow her down much. Also, Gamora is pretty damn fast. I remember that Chase with the two Nova's flying through town at high speeds. She caught up to them pretty damn quickly.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The only person of any skill Gamora has ever fought was Wolverine. She didn't win. Other than that she has used a pressure point on Thing and Rage. Something she admitted she couldn't have done with Sasquatch restraining him, and coincided to Cyclops that she wouldn't have been able to do it to him either. Every top tier street level martial artist has better skill feats than Gamora.

How does Creed only land glancing blows? Ronan was landing flush on her in melee and he isn't exactly Bruce Lee. Gamora lacks the speed or the skill to avoid Creed in melee and tag him with unanswered shots. Her out-striking him at all is very unlikely.

The bricks that Wolverine and Creed usually fight hit them hard enough to liquify all their organs... how does Gamora "make her strikes count" more than that? Creed would fold Gamora up like a lawn chair and take her to soccer practice. You are only looking at Gamora from one instance. It is clear that she is highly skilled and very fast. Plus you are forgetting that she had several upgrades and was flipping tanks around like nothing. So her not being about to pressure point Thing without help is hogwash.

Also you must take into consideration that a brick hitting someone of value in a comic means they are not hitting them with there full force. For example, almost every street leveler has been hit with things that should kill them. The fact that they didn't die means that the attack jobbed.

IMO, she is faster, stronger than Creed and more skilled. Creed's durability (HF) is better. She has pressure point attacks which amplifies her effectiveness several magnitudes more. It wouldn't be easy for Creed to land flush blows (stop lowballing her because of the Ronan fight, she is better than that).

This is a good fight that can go either way.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are only looking at Gamora from one instance. It is clear that she is highly skilled and very fast. Plus you are forgetting that she had several upgrades and was flipping tanks around like nothing. So her not being about to pressure point Thing without help is hogwash.

Also you must take into consideration that a brick hitting someone of value in a comic means they are not hitting them with there full force. For example, almost every street leveler has been hit with things that should kill them. The fact that they didn't die means that the attack jobbed.

IMO, she is faster, stronger than Creed and more skilled. Creed's durability (HF) is better. She has pressure point attacks which amplifies her effectiveness several magnitudes more. It wouldn't be easy for Creed to land flush blows (stop lowballing her because of the Ronan fight, she is better than that).

This is a good fight that can go either way.

I'm looking at Gamora's entire collected history, not one isolated instance. Gamora simply lacks the speed or skill feats, to rival the top street level MAs. She has two pressure point feats that she says she can't use in an actual fight, and some anecdotal evidence that she is the "most dangerous women in the universe." Awesome? Every single one of the top street level characters has better speed feats, and most of them have better skill feats as well.

Not really sure what her being strong enough to lift a tank has to do with her lacking the proficiency to use pressure points effectively in a fight.

Yeeeeeeeeeah no. Wolverine and Sabretooth tank the best shots of class 100 bricks, we been told that explicitly dozens of times. Alternatively there isn't a single example of someone like the Hulk saying "Captain America is shrugging of my best attacks!" The same goes for virtually any combination of street level hero and class 100 brick. Guys like Batman and Cap survive the odd attack form class 100s because they "roll with the blow" or the character his hold back, that's the explanation we have been given routinely by Marvel and DC. Logan and Creed eat class 100 blows because their healing factor allows them to, that's the explanation we have been given routinely by Marvel. The two scenarios are not the same.

Gamora is stronger than Creed, and she has higher durability for blunt damage soak... but none of that matters since Sabretooth isn't going to wrestle her and his primary method of attack is his claws. Creed has the potential to end this fight with a single well placed blow. Gamora would have to avoid his every attack and connect with hundreds of unanswered blows to net a victory... what in her history suggests that is something she is cable of? Hint: The answer is nothing.

Gamora's fight with Ronan is one of her best feats... and I'm low balling her by citing that fight?

Gamora takes a while to heal from been exposed to the sun, and when i say exposed she was right next to it...thats a low showing ?

Originally posted by Nihilist
Gamora takes a while to heal from been exposed to the sun, and when i say exposed she was right next to it...thats a low showing ?

She tanked the heat with her durability, not with her healing factor. A few layers of skin was burnt off, that's about it. It took her days to repair that damage. Wolverine's healed from similar wounds in between panels.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
She tanked the heat with her durability, not with her healing factor. A few layers of skin was burnt off, that's about it. It took her days to repair that damage. Wolverine's healed from similar wounds in between panels. So what if it was part durability/part healing factor. She was stood a few feet away from the Sun, when has Wolverine been that close to a sun?

Originally posted by Nihilist
So what if it was part durability/part healing factor. She was stood a few feet away from the Sun, when has Wolverine been that close to a sun?

Think about the difference between using a flame thrower on a concrete pillar and using a flame thrower on a sheet of wax paper. Gamora's durability is as such that the star's heat was only sufficient to do surface damage to her dermis. At most we are talking about third degree burns, and it took her days to repair that damage. Wolverine heals that sort of damage in seconds, he heals forth degree and burns where entire muscle groups are brunt to cinders in mere panels.

Grant Morrison's New X-Men.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Think about the difference between using a flame thrower on a concrete pillar and using a flame thrower on a sheet of wax paper. Gamora's durability is as such that the star's heat was only sufficient to do surface damage to her dermis. At most we are talking about third degree burns, and it took her days to repair that damage. Wolverine heals that sort of damage in seconds, he heals forth degree and burns where entire muscle groups are brunt to cinders in mere panels.

Grant Morrison's New X-Men.
That anology is pointless youre trying to compare a flame throwing to the god damn sun, the temp difference is is completely of the scale.

In Grant Morrisons Xmen he was nowhere near as close to the sun as Gamora was IIRC.

I remember 1 time that Wolverine was close to the sun, it was when he was in a spaceship with Jean he was carrying her and they went out of the spaceship and he started burning then Jean teleported their asses away.

Originally posted by Nihilist
That anology is pointless youre trying to compare a flame throwing to the god damn sun, the temp difference is is completely of the scale.

In Grant Morrisons Xmen he was nowhere near as close to the sun as Gamora was IIRC.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Gamora is so much more durable than a concrete pillar that the durability difference is off the scale. Ditto with Wolverine and a sheet of wax paper. The analogy is apt. Gamora durability is high enough that she can largely resist the heat of a star before being burnt, but the damage that she did get from said burns took her days to heal from.

Wolverine was closer to the star. He was in side the suns corona, Gamora was merely on a dyson fire that's atmosphere was ignited by the suns heat when it's force field went down.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Comic books. Read them.

Also, where's Mindset when you need him?

gamora

Gamora.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The only person of any skill Gamora has ever fought was Wolverine. She didn't win. Other than that she has used a pressure point on Thing and Rage. Something she admitted she couldn't have done with Sasquatch restraining him, and coincided to Cyclops that she wouldn't have been able to do it to him either. Every top tier street level martial artist has better skill feats than Gamora.

How does Creed only land glancing blows? Ronan was landing flush on her in melee and he isn't exactly Bruce Lee. Gamora lacks the speed or the skill to avoid Creed in melee and tag him with unanswered shots. Her out-striking him at all is very unlikely.

The bricks that Wolverine and Creed usually fight hit them hard enough to liquify all their organs... how does Gamora "make her strikes count" more than that? Creed would fold Gamora up like a lawn chair and take her to soccer practice. LMAO! True.

I don't see how Gamera is THAT much more a threat than Ms. Marvel in h2h... from all appearances... she isn't.

Originally posted by jinzin
LMAO! True.

I don't see how Gamera is THAT much more a threat than Ms. Marvel in h2h... from all appearances... she isn't.

She's not. That's why must the people who think Gamora will win need to resort to one word posts. If they bothered to but anything thought into explain how Gamora would possibly win, they would quickly come to the realization that they were misguided.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are only looking at Gamora from one instance. It is clear that she is highly skilled and very fast. Plus you are forgetting that she had several upgrades and was flipping tanks around like nothing. So her not being about to pressure point Thing without help is hogwash.

Also you must take into consideration that a brick hitting someone of value in a comic means they are not hitting them with there full force. For example, almost every street leveler has been hit with things that should kill them. The fact that they didn't die means that the attack jobbed.

IMO, she is faster, stronger than Creed and more skilled. Creed's durability (HF) is better. She has pressure point attacks which amplifies her effectiveness several magnitudes more. It wouldn't be easy for Creed to land flush blows (stop lowballing her because of the Ronan fight, she is better than that).

This is a good fight that can go either way.

Oh christ... Okay so another "comic feats only matter when I say argument" huh? Right then...

No one has argued that Gamora isn't highly skilled and no one said she wasn't fast... the argument is that she isn't skilled enough or fast enough to outstrike Creed in a fight to any degree that would actually allow her to win h2h. If you disagree then you need to start bringing evidence to the table to support yourself here.

Bottem line? Wolverine is not fast or skilled enough to outstrike Creed without taking SIGNIFICANT damage in their fights, IF he outstrikes him at all.... AND.... he usually loses... y'know, WITH a superfast healing factor that would allow him to heal from damage lightyears faster than Gamora's capabilities allow for.

First, you need to prove that Gamora's more skilled than Wolverie- And you can't. Trust me, been down this road already.
Then you would need to prove that she's faster in combat than Wolverine- And you SERIOUSLY can't.... again, done this dance already.
Then you could BEGIN to make the argument that she's faster than Creed for instance, though not very well...
THEN you would need to prove that those attributes were on such a superior level that they allow for the rest of the argument that you're attempting to make. This.... this will be next to impossible to do given her feats and appearances; ignoring the hype.

As for hogwash..... Wolverine and Creed are characters who have attributes at a SUPERHUMAN level that ALLOW them to take those shots full force.. you can pretend that isn't what's being presented on panel, but when you have a character like Savage Hulk threatening to "smash little man" is kind of hard to ignore the implication that Hulk's hitting Wolverine for real. Either of these characters not dying has nothing to do with "jobbing" it has to do with the powers they actually have... If you want to ignore that too, then you're not arguing against the characters that exist... of course given that you think Gamora's too fast and too skilled to be hit flush by Creed in a h2h fight it's already quite apparent that you're not using exsisting characters for the purposes of this thread.

Finally... several things: The Ronan fight is one of the best displays Gamora's ever put up against anyone of note that wasn't circumstantial with the exception of Ronan fighting like an idiot.

Pressure points have shown numerous times to be inneffective against Wolverine when his healing factor's working at peak conditions and Sabretooth's is better, AND someone of Gamora's strength class FAILED to use pressure points on Classic Creed back in the day.... They'll work better now? Nuh uh.

And Last, unlike Gamora, Sabretooth actually has feats against a Wolverine calibur opponent where he was moving so well, and so fast that we wasn't taking flush shots in a fight... WHILE playing around.... So the door swings both ways there if that's your arugment.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Gamora is stronger than Creed, and she has higher durability for blunt damage soak... She might not even have that advantage. Creed's adamantiumized in this thread. Even before his upgrades and adamantium his durability for blunt force damage was/is insane. Many caliburs above his strength class.

Yeah his muscles were said to be akin to corded steal two upgrades ago.

Originally posted by jinzin
Oh christ... Okay so another "comic feats only matter when I say argument" huh? Right then...

No one has argued that Gamora isn't highly skilled and no one said she wasn't fast... the argument is that she isn't skilled enough or fast enough to outstrike Creed in a fight to any degree that would actually allow her to win h2h. If you disagree then you need to start bringing evidence to the table to support yourself here.

Bottem line? Wolverine is not fast or skilled enough to outstrike Creed without taking SIGNIFICANT damage in their fights, IF he outstrikes him at all.... AND.... he usually loses... y'know, WITH a superfast healing factor that would allow him to heal from damage lightyears faster than Gamora's capabilities allow for.

First, you need to prove that Gamora's more skilled than Wolverie- And you can't. Trust me, been down this road already.
Then you would need to prove that she's faster in combat than Wolverine- And you SERIOUSLY can't.... again, done this dance already.
Then you could BEGIN to make the argument that she's faster than Creed for instance, though not very well...
THEN you would need to prove that those attributes were on such a superior level that they allow for the rest of the argument that you're attempting to make. This.... this will be next to impossible to do given her feats and appearances; ignoring the hype.

As for hogwash..... Wolverine and Creed are characters who have attributes at a SUPERHUMAN level that ALLOW them to take those shots full force.. you can pretend that isn't what's being presented on panel, but when you have a character like Savage Hulk threatening to "smash little man" is kind of hard to ignore the implication that Hulk's hitting Wolverine for real. Either of these characters not dying has nothing to do with "jobbing" it has to do with the powers they actually have... If you want to ignore that too, then you're not arguing against the characters that exist... of course given that you think Gamora's too fast and too skilled to be hit flush by Creed in a h2h fight it's already quite apparent that you're not using exsisting characters for the purposes of this thread.

Finally... several things: The Ronan fight is one of the best displays Gamora's ever put up against anyone of note that wasn't circumstantial with the exception of Ronan fighting like an idiot.

Pressure points have shown numerous times to be inneffective against Wolverine when his healing factor's working at peak conditions and Sabretooth's is better, AND someone of Gamora's strength class FAILED to use pressure points on Classic Creed back in the day.... They'll work better now? Nuh uh.

And Last, unlike Gamora, Sabretooth actually has feats against a Wolverine calibur opponent where he was moving so well, and so fast that we wasn't taking flush shots in a fight... WHILE playing around.... So the door swings both ways there if that's your arugment.

You are insane to believe that Gamora won't outstrike Creed. What has Creed shown to suggest such nonsense?

Also, stop using comic fights as sole evidence. Logan and many other character's job and are caught not fighting to the best of their abilities.
Logan showing great skill in one comic doesn't mean he is showing the same in another.

This is a forum fight with characters performing at their best. That means Gamora is faster, stronger, and more skilled. His HF is better than hers but she hits more times and with more damage (including pressure point strikes). With the Godslayer she might can take a healthy majority.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are insane to believe that Gamora won't outstrike Creed. What has Creed shown to suggest such nonsense?


Tooled Iron Fist without trying? A better question is what has Gamora done to suggest she can out-strike Creed? Hint: The answer is nothing. Shhh

Originally posted by h1a8
Also, stop using comic fights as sole evidence. Logan and many other character's job and are caught not fighting to the best of their abilities.
Logan showing great skill in one comic doesn't mean he is showing the same in another.


lol

What else are you using for evidence? Handbook bios? Cartoons? Movies? Memories of the action figure fights you played out with earlier this morning before your mom made you breakfast? Comicbook fights and feats are the only thing that matters. Creed's feats put him above the abilities of someone like Gamora to beat. She is a less skilled Wolverine with a healing factor about a million times slower, and class 70 strength hardly begins to balance the equation. She can't beat Wolverine. She can't beat Creed.

And what does Ronan jobbing to Gamora have to do with Wolverine or Creed?

Originally posted by h1a8
This is a forum fight with characters performing at their best. That means Gamora is faster, stronger, and more skilled. His HF is better than hers but she hits more times and with more damage (including pressure point strikes). With the Godslayer she might can take a healthy majority.

Except Creed is preforming at his best too... which means Creed is faster and comparably skilled. Gamora will will tag Creed less than he tags her, her attacks will do significantly less damage than his, and any damage she inflicts on him will heal in seconds, where as any damage he does to her will remain for the duration of the fight. Gamora can't use pressure points in combat, she never has and she has explicitly stated that she can't. There is no wiggle room or middle ground there, Gamora lacks the martial proficiency to execute pressure point attacks during the natural flow of combat.

Again one panel there is nothing to suggest that Godslayer will afford her any advantage what so ever. An impressive name doesn't change the fact that the only thing it has done is break.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are insane to believe that Gamora won't outstrike Creed. What has Creed shown to suggest such nonsense? So then nothing huh? Not a single shred of evidence to support your argument? Just a big strawman instead? Ok.
Yeah, never said Gamora couldn't outstrike Creed, I said she couldn't outstrike him to a degree that would allow her to win in a close up h2h fight. I know it's complicated but try to keep up.

In ORDER TO BEAT CREED, Gamora has to be able to get inside Sabretooth's greater range land strikes, and evade counterstrikes long enough and consistent enough to put someone down who casually walks through hails of gunfire, class 100 punches, optic blasts, psionic blasts, explosions, etc etc etc... She has to do CATASTROPHIC damage to a character who has a faster healing factor than Logan AND an adamantium skeleton in this thread.... She has to fight flawlessly or something near it.

Again, if Logan, a character who can match or surpass EVERY. SINGLE. FEAT. of skill or speed she has, can't do it to Creed in fights that Creed doesn't even take seriously even WITH a healing factor that allows him to sustain the damage that Sabretooth dishes out far longer better than Gamora could.... Then what chance does Gamora have? It's not hard to figure out.

Don't want to use Logan as a pillar of evidence? That's fine, because characters with extra sensory or enhanced sensory perception like Daredevil and Spiderman couldn't evade Sabretooth either. Both regarded his speed. So did Iron Fist... And this was all before he was significantly upgraded several times. Character's noted for enhanced speed and agility like Beast, Dark Beast, Enhanced Black Cat, Wildchild, Sinister's Supermen, Deadpool and Rogue have also been at a loss compared to Sabretooth's speed and reaction time.

Even on the low end of the totem poll AOA Sabretooth a weaker incarnation of the 616 version absolutely punked a user of the Starbrand, a legit speedster.

Do you understand this? She's not fast or skilled ENOUGH to outstrike Sabretooth ENOUGH.... WITHOUT GETTING HIT ENOUGH.... to win.

Originally posted by h1a8
Also, stop using comic fights as sole evidence. Why should I? That's the baseline standard of evidence that most people use on the forum. It's also the most logical standard of evidence to use unless you think stats are more important than actions.
That said, if you want to go by official stats... Sabretooth and Gamora are equally ranked in strength by some ratings, Sabretooth has superior durability in others, and they have the SAME SKILL RATING in all of them...
Or we could go by Gamora's character bio that described her as being as physically fit as a woman of her size would be.... Uh.... peak human? Really? Is that what you want to go by? Cause, y'know doing that will rip your argument to shreds in one way or another.
Comics are the standard of evidence. Period.

Originally posted by h1a8
Logan and many other character's job and are caught not fighting to the best of their abilities. True enough, that has nothing to do with this thread.

Originally posted by h1a8
Logan showing great skill in one comic doesn't mean he is showing the same in another. Irrelivant. Logan's skill is part of his powerset as described by Marvel, his skill is part of his character bio as written by marvel, his skill is part of the character's official backstory, his skill is put up for display a GREAT MANY TIMES in comics against other skilled opponents on a semi consistent basis and routinely referenced by 2nd and 3rd parties as well as narration.

There's no logical reason to ignore his skillset.. you just don't like it. Alternatively what has Gamora done in comics to show her skill level is better than Wolverine? Besides admitting she couldn't T off on Thing, getting whacked by Ronin, or getting stabbed by Wolverine?

Originally posted by h1a8
This is a forum fight with characters performing at their best. Which means Sabretooth performs at his as well. It's not a one way street.

Originally posted by h1a8
That means Gamora is faster, Prove it. You can't? I know..
Originally posted by h1a8
stronger, No one argued otherwise, it's just not as much an advantage as you might think. Look at his fight with Ms. Marvel.
Originally posted by h1a8
and more skilled. According to what? The comics you want to ignore? Or the statslist that say she isn't?

Originally posted by h1a8
His HF is better than hers MUCH better.

Originally posted by h1a8
but she hits more times and with more damage (including pressure point strikes).
Prove it. How does she do "more damage"? She's going to T off on Sabretooth with pressure point strikes? Oh you mean like she did with Roni-oh wait, nevermind. You mean like she did with Thing? Oh wait... Nevermind.

Sabretooth is likely faster than her, has a reach advantage, has a durability vs. offensive capability advantage (Being that his claws are doing MUCH more damage to her if he connects than her blows will do to him) and again we've already seen pressure points DON'T WORK ON SABRETOOTH by someone in the 60+ Ton strength range. And we know they don't work on Wolverine AT ALL when he's performing to the best of his abilities with a healing factor that's slower than Sabretooth's. Enhanced sensory and the durability of his bones are also to Sabretooth's advantage. She has strength, and possibily a skill advantage, but strength's kinda lost on Sabretooth ESPECIALLY an adamantiumized one, and her skill advantage isn't much according to feats or she flat out doesn't have one according to stats, take your pick.

The bottem line is that Sabretooth can take more than she can in this fight... much more. SOOOOO MUCH MORE. Even if we just gave her a skill and speed advantage she needs to fight near flawlessly to keep from losing a fight here. We're talking about a guy that walks around IMMEDIATELY after having every bone in his body broken to dust on impact from space, or healed immediately from being burned to a near skeleton well enough to blitz and one shot another superhuman. We're talking about a guy who has a faster healing factor than "I eat Hulk fists for breakfast" Wolverine, and has a natural durability multiple times that of his own 20 ton strength range, who now has an adamantium skeleton to boot.

She doesn't win this fight, and so far the only reason I see for some parties ahem, giving it to her is because she's Gamora "The most dangerous great green hype in the universe". Color me impressed.

Originally posted by h1a8
With the Godslayer she might can take a healthy majority. She might... again... Because it benefits from being "GODSLAYER"... that's about it.

Creed and Logan "casually" walking through class 100 hits is PIS.

Jinzen, you're as bad as Srank.

Originally posted by cdtm
Creed and Logan "casually" walking through class 100 hits is PIS.

Jinzen, you're as bad as Srank. Explain to me what is Plot Induced about a character's POWERSET? It's not as if Logan hasn't been doing it since the day he was introduced in Marvel. You're saying that something that consistently happens... to a character that has a powerset specifically designed to take this type of punishment..... in a company that USES this notable advantage to sell mini-series' and animated features SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE of this advantage... is PIS?.... Hmmmm Okay, well when you can effectively argue why I should ignore something like this, when Marvel is literally banking on it, and to such a degree..... maybe I'll care about what you have to say here.

Originally posted by jinzin
Explain to me what is Plot Induced about a character's POWERSET? It's not as if Logan hasn't been doing it since the day he was introduced in Marvel. You're saying that something that consistently happens... to a character that has a powerset specifically designed to take this type of punishment..... in a company that USES this notable advantage to sell mini-series' and animated features SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE of this advantage... is PIS?.... Hmmmm Okay, well when you can effectively argue why I should ignore something like this, when Marvel is literally banking on it, and to such a degree..... maybe I'll care about what you have to say here.

PIS isn't a powerset.

I'll make it simple for you: If Logan and Wolverine can tank (tank being the operable word here, as you said "casually walk through class 100 hits", any examples of less hurting them are PIS.

And there are many, many, many, many examples of far less hurting them. Deadpool, Mr. X, Spider Man, Iron Fist, Shang Chai, Captain America, and Thing are all below class 100, and all have had given Logan a good fight.

Take off the fanboy goggles. Your boy Sabertooth normally hangs with streets (Daredevil gave him a good fight, for one), metas, and mid range characters. He's not a class 100 killer, any more than Deathstroke is a team beater because of Identity Crisis, or a Flash killer despite his history in Titans.

Originally posted by cdtm
PIS isn't a powerset. No but an unbreakable skeleton and liquid metal healing factor is.

Originally posted by cdtm
I'll make it simple for you: If Logan and Wolverine can tank (tank being the operable word here, as you said "casually walk through class 100 hits", any examples of less hurting them are PIS. Srank already explained this, to you I think even.... No one said a class 100 punch doesn't hurt Wolverine or Creed (Well Creed's crazy so he might be a different story), what's being said is that they can tank the hits... as in take them and keep on coming. Which they can, and they do.

So no, less hurting them isn't PIS, it's consistent with their levels of durability. They can be cut, or shot, or stabbed. They will be hurt... Guess what, they can ALSO tank those things because of their power.

Their ability to tank damage isn't based on what can and can't hurt them, it's based on what they can bounce back from INSPITE of what hurt them.

Originally posted by cdtm
And there are many, many, many, many examples of far less hurting them. Deadpool, Mr. X, Spider Man, Iron Fist, Shang Chai, Captain America, and Thing are all below class 100, and all have had given Logan a good fight. No one said they can't... But most of those are terrible examples...
I'm beginning to get the impression that you're having a crisis seperating "pain" from what one can "endure".
Wolverine and Sabretooth can endure class 100 punches and keep coming, that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
If Wolverine gets punched by someone like Cap it's still going to hurt upon impact, the simple fact is that the effect doesn't last much longer than that one instant.

In any case those are terrible examples as most/all of them are related to the CONTEXT of the story they occur in. For instance, Shang Chi never even damaged Logan...
There is where another issue lies. Most examples of Wolverine being unable to TANK less(... which is what we should really be talking about here, not what gives him trouble in a fight because that's another matter entirely....) is the specific result of what's happened in the storyline. Other instances that are the result of the story I.E. Wolverine being knocked out by a single bullet to the head, ARE typical representations of PIS... Dunno why you have a problem with that but...

Originally posted by cdtm
Take off the fanboy goggles. Your boy Sabertooth normally hangs with streets (Daredevil gave him a good fight, for one),
So...... I guess you like showing off your ignorance then? Mmmmk
Daredevil gave Sabretooth a "good fight" when Sabretooth was a as of yet underdeveloped character with not much in the way of super powers. Even then, all DD essentially did was hold Creed back until he got too beat up to fight. That specific example actually holds more water for my case as DD comments that his hits are doing nothing but upsetting Creed, being thrown through brick walls did nothing to slow him down either... this was all before Creed was written as a strict superhuman with a healing factor, and well before his upgrades.

Again, just because DD could give him a good fight, does that mean that Creed can't tank class 100 shots? No... That's utterly ridiculous logic. A beat up/tortured Captain America gave Wrecker a "good fight", guess Wrecker can't take class 100 shots.... The two issues are completely unrelated.
Originally posted by cdtm
metas, and mid range characters. He's not a class 100 killer, You should tell that to Wendigo and Holocaust.

Originally posted by cdtm
any more than Deathstroke is a team beater because of Identity Crisis, or a Flash killer despite his history in Titans. Again bringing up unrelated issues. Deathstroke has't been pulling IC shit out of his ass since his incarnation. He doesn't have a history of whomping on teams with examples that approach the hundreds. The analogy to Flash is utterly absurd. In order for DS to do what he does to Flash, Flash's powers have to be ignored. In order for Creed or Wolverine to tank a Class 100 hit, NO powers need to be ignored. They're two completely different things.

Scuffle with Nova Prime

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/Nova%20CQB%20protocols/1323844372299.jpg
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/Nova%20CQB%20protocols/1323844383218.jpg
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/Nova%20CQB%20protocols/1323844393849.jpg
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/Nova%20CQB%20protocols/1323844413831.jpg

Scuffle with Terrax

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/Nova%20CQB%20protocols/1323844516199.jpg
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/Nova%20CQB%20protocols/1323844615672.jpg

Apologies gents if the scans aren't of great quality. Including the Ronan fight you've got 3 fairly recent scraps with three herald level beings. All of which involved, well "context". Nova at a fraction of his normal power, Terrax possessed by bugs like Moondragon was. So take it for what its worth.

Originally posted by cdtm
Creed and Logan "casually" walking through class 100 hits is PIS.

Jinzen, you're as bad as Srank.

Originally posted by cdtm
PIS isn't a powerset.

I'll make it simple for you: If Logan and Wolverine can tank (tank being the operable word here, as you said "casually walk through class 100 hits", any examples of less hurting them are PIS.

And there are many, many, many, many examples of far less hurting them. Deadpool, Mr. X, Spider Man, Iron Fist, Shang Chai, Captain America, and Thing are all below class 100, and all have had given Logan a good fight.

Take off the fanboy goggles. Your boy Sabertooth normally hangs with streets (Daredevil gave him a good fight, for one), metas, and mid range characters. He's not a class 100 killer, any more than Deathstroke is a team beater because of Identity Crisis, or a Flash killer despite his history in Titans.

Christ you're stupid. Like seriously, really ****ing stupid. We are talking bottom %1 percentile stupid.

Since apparently it needs to be explained to you again her we go: Wolverine tanks damage from class 100 bricks because of his healing factor. A healing factor != durability. Wolverine has more or less baseline human level durability. Anything that can hurt a normal person can hurt Wolverine... he just heals from it. Hurting Wolverine isn't a feat. I can hurt Wolverine. You seem to believe that hurting Wolverine is somehow evidence that he can't tank a class 100. It's not. His durability and healing are too completely different things. He isn't formidable because he is invulnerable to damage, he heals from it.... that's his power. For every example of Wolverine being koed by less than a class 100 blow there are dozens of examples of him shrugging them off.

Sabretooth didn't even have a healing factor yet when he fought DD and he toyed with Matt the entire fight and could have finished it when ever he wanted to.

FYI most of the characters have never beaten Wolverine, the ones that have did so with the aid of plot devices and Thing has class 100 strength. Why do you bother posting here? You clearly don't read comics.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Tooled Iron Fist without trying? A better question is what has Gamora done to suggest she can out-strike Creed? Hint: The answer is nothing. Shhh



lol

What else are you using for evidence? Handbook bios? Cartoons? Movies? Memories of the action figure fights you played out with earlier this morning before your mom made you breakfast? Comicbook fights and feats are the only thing that matters. Creed's feats put him above the abilities of someone like Gamora to beat. She is a less skilled Wolverine with a healing factor about a million times slower, and class 70 strength hardly begins to balance the equation. She can't beat Wolverine. She can't beat Creed.

And what does Ronan jobbing to Gamora have to do with Wolverine or Creed?



Except Creed is preforming at his best too... which means Creed is faster and comparably skilled. Gamora will will tag Creed less than he tags her, her attacks will do significantly less damage than his, and any damage she inflicts on him will heal in seconds, where as any damage he does to her will remain for the duration of the fight. Gamora can't use pressure points in combat, she never has and she has explicitly stated that she can't. There is no wiggle room or middle ground there, Gamora lacks the martial proficiency to execute pressure point attacks during the natural flow of combat.

Again one panel there is nothing to suggest that Godslayer will afford her any advantage what so ever. An impressive name doesn't change the fact that the only thing it has done is break.

Gamora has shown a much higher skill level than Creed. She simply fights better and knows more stuff. Ask anyone here. You and Jinzin are the only ones that disagree.

She is faster by feats. What has Creed shown to say that she isn't faster than him?

And I'm referring to instances where characters were performing at their best ability (not movies or handbooks). Gamora at her best is simply a better fighter than Creed at his best. Godslayer adds to the damage output, it would tax Creeds HF in such a way that he would be easier to ko.

Creed can win some but so can Gamora. Lopsided in any way is asinine.

Originally posted by h1a8
Gamora has shown a much higher skill level than Creed. She simply fights better and knows more stuff. Ask anyone here. You and Jinzin are the only ones that disagree.

She is faster by feats. What has Creed shown to say that she isn't faster than him?

And I'm referring to instances where characters were performing at their best ability (not movies or handbooks). Gamora at her best is simply a better fighter than Creed at his best. Godslayer adds to the damage output, it would tax Creeds HF in such a way that he would be easier to ko.

Creed can win some but so can Gamora. Lopsided in any way is asinine.

Gamora simply hasn't "shown a much higher level skill level than Creed." The only character of any measurable skill Gamora has ever fought is Wolverine... and Wolverine beat her. Creed has fought much more skilled characters than Gamora has and he has fared much better than she could hope to. Jinzin and I base our opinions on feats, not empty rhetoric and hearsay.

What has Creed shown that Gamora isn't faster than him? How about speed feats? Creed has some, Gamora quite literally doesn't have a single speed feat. She jumped at Ronan once... and... there was a woosh sound... oooooooooooooo

Godslayer does not add any damage output. It is a most a slightly more durable dagger. The only thing Godslayer has ever done is break.

Why do you bother responding to my posts if you aren't going to address any of the points I raise? Gamora has no impressive speed feats. Cite a single one if you feel other wise. The only skilled fighter Gamora has ever fought is Wolverine. She didn't win. Gamora can't use pressure points in an actual fight. She's said so her self. Godslayer doesn't give her any sort of benefit. The only thing it has done on panel is break. Her healing factor isn't fast enough to compensate for the type of damage Creed dishes out. She was koed by a single gut check by Wolverine. What has she done that even remotely alludes to the possibility that she can beat Sabretooth?

Originally posted by jinzin
No but an unbreakable skeleton and liquid metal healing factor is.

Srank already explained this, to you I think even.... No one said a class 100 punch doesn't hurt Wolverine or Creed (Well Creed's crazy so he might be a different story), what's being said is that they can tank the hits... as in take them and keep on coming. Which they can, and they do.

So no, less hurting them isn't PIS, it's consistent with their levels of durability. They can be cut, or shot, or stabbed. They will be hurt... Guess what, they can ALSO tank those things because of their power.

Their ability to tank damage isn't based on what can and can't hurt them, it's based on what they can bounce back from INSPITE of what hurt them.

No one said they can't... But most of those are terrible examples...
I'm beginning to get the impression that you're having a crisis seperating "pain" from what one can "endure".
Wolverine and Sabretooth can endure class 100 punches and keep coming, that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
If Wolverine gets punched by someone like Cap it's still going to hurt upon impact, the simple fact is that the effect doesn't last much longer than that one instant.

In any case those are terrible examples as most/all of them are related to the CONTEXT of the story they occur in. For instance, Shang Chi never even damaged Logan...
There is where another issue lies. Most examples of Wolverine being unable to TANK less(... which is what we should really be talking about here, not what gives him trouble in a fight because that's another matter entirely....) is the specific result of what's happened in the storyline. Other instances that are the result of the story I.E. Wolverine being knocked out by a single bullet to the head, ARE typical representations of PIS... Dunno why you have a problem with that but...


So...... I guess you like showing off your ignorance then? Mmmmk
Daredevil gave Sabretooth a "good fight" when Sabretooth was a as of yet underdeveloped character with not much in the way of super powers. Even then, all DD essentially did was hold Creed back until he got too beat up to fight. That specific example actually holds more water for my case as DD comments that his hits are doing nothing but upsetting Creed, being thrown through brick walls did nothing to slow him down either... this was all before Creed was written as a strict superhuman with a healing factor, and well before his upgrades.

Again, just because DD could give him a good fight, does that mean that Creed can't tank class 100 shots? No... That's utterly ridiculous logic. A beat up/tortured Captain America gave Wrecker a "good fight", guess Wrecker can't take class 100 shots.... The two issues are completely unrelated.
You should tell that to Wendigo and Holocaust.

Again bringing up unrelated issues. Deathstroke has't been pulling IC shit out of his ass since his incarnation. He doesn't have a history of whomping on teams with examples that approach the hundreds. The analogy to Flash is utterly absurd. In order for DS to do what he does to Flash, Flash's powers have to be ignored. In order for Creed or Wolverine to tank a Class 100 hit, NO powers need to be ignored. They're two completely different things.

I don't think you understand the definition of "tank".

You can't have it both ways. If Captain America, Spider Man, or Shang Chi's blows can hurt Wolverine, a punch from Hulk should knock him out. The fact it occasionally doesn't is PIS, pure and simple. (Given that examples of < class 100 hurting him outweigh tanking class 100, by a large margin.)

A class 100 punch is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> street or meta level punch, to the point where anyone who can survive the former shouldn't be phased by the latter, at all.

Originally posted by h1a8
Gamora at her best is simply a better fighter than Creed at his best.
Not really. Creed is a very cunning and experienced fighter, Gamora doesn't have that many fights under her belt.


Why is "Godslayer" such a big deal ? It's just a sword. Based on feats, Creeds claws are much more dangerous than the so-called godslayer.

Originally posted by cdtm
I don't think you understand the definition of "tank".

You can't have it both ways. If Captain America, Spider Man, or Shang Chi's blows can hurt Wolverine, a punch from Hulk should knock him out. The fact it occasionally doesn't is PIS, pure and simple. (Given that examples of < class 100 hurting him outweigh tanking class 100, by a large margin.)

A class 100 punch is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> street or meta level punch, to the point where anyone who can survive the former shouldn't be phased by the latter, at all.

You clearly don't comprehend the difference between a healing factor and durability, no matter how many times it's been explained to you.

Originally posted by cdtm
I don't think you understand the definition of "tank".

You can't have it both ways. If Captain America, Spider Man, or Shang Chi's blows can hurt Wolverine, a punch from Hulk should knock him out. The fact it occasionally doesn't is PIS, pure and simple. (Given that examples of < class 100 hurting him outweigh tanking class 100, by a large margin.)

A class 100 punch is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> street or meta level punch, to the point where anyone who can survive the former shouldn't be phased by the latter, at all. I'm thinking Srank was right about you.

The ability to tank something is analogous with the ability to endure it.

Wolverine can endure punches from Spidey and Cap, and heal from them immediately.
Wolverine can endure punches from Hulk and heal from them immediately. Both can hurt him. This isn't complicated. Stop being dense.
Wolverine is "OCCASSIONALLY" knocked out by class 100 shots, it isn't the other way around, he's stood up to FAR more class 100 shots than he has gone down to, and most of the time he's fallen to a class 100 shot has some context for why it happened in the first place. Wolverine has beng hit with heavy hitting punches hundreds and hundreds of times in his career. He's fought the Hulk more than he's fought Cap, Shang Chi, and Spiderman COMBINED, and I KNOW Srank already told you this sooooo...... Srank is correct, you're being an idiot.

Wolverine isn't surviving class 100 punches because they don't hurt, he's surviving them because he feals from the damage they do..... Being able to heal damage doesn't mean he doesn't feel pain.