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1.Both at their best hand to hand combat or CQC who wins?

2.Both can use weopons/gadgets or make use of envt combined with martial arts who wins?

**They say batman has an iron will and as you know I.F plundged his fists into the molten heart of a dragon...who wins in the above both at their best?**

Bruce gets obliterated by Danny.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Bruce gets obliterated by Danny.

How about in the 2nd fight? I can see Bruce taking that...he'd have to pull something exotic out though.

Edit: and I see we agree, Jake.

With his standard gadgets on hand? Not for a majority, imho.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Bruce gets obliterated by Danny. didnt bruce do pretty well against kk

Originally posted by Starscream M
didnt bruce do pretty well against kk

With the help of some context.

Scenario one Batman gets brutalized. Scenario two Danny gets put to sleep with gas.

Danny would do as well or better (read: better) than Bruce did against those KK. I would give IF a comfortable majority against 3boot KK.

Wasn't KK half dead from that infection?

Batman kicks Danny so hard that Danny swallows his own dick and chokes on his dick and dies. g_serious

pure h2h no ironfist or amping? no way IF is clearly better. i'll take bats in a battle of skill. bp fought him to a draw, cap's made him look like an amateur and logan is considerably more skilled as well. fist is good, and it wouldn't be a clean sweep either way, but i'll take bats 6/10 and every fight is very close.

with weapons bats outthinks him and ko's via long range weapons.

Yeah, without Ironfist tapping into his superpowers and all that, Bruce should take him down in the first scenario.

In scenario two, I really don't see gadgets stopping Danny from destroying him though. Danny's too versatile and too powerful to fall prey to most of the ordinary gadgets that Bats carries on him.

Originally posted by leonidas
pure h2h no ironfist or amping? no way IF is clearly better. i'll take bats in a battle of skill. bp fought him to a draw, cap's made him look like an amateur and logan is considerably more skilled as well. fist is good, and it wouldn't be a clean sweep either way, but i'll take bats 6/10 and every fight is very close.

with weapons bats outthinks him and ko's via long range weapons.
yeah hey also im not sure what tier rez ghul is but he has the power of some demon etc but in the recent batman game arkham city bruce defeats him which is quite impressive due to his iron will etc... but i guess he was also amped to a certain extent then..But im not sure how ghul will compare to I.F

Originally posted by leonidas
pure h2h no ironfist or amping? no way IF is clearly better. i'll take bats in a battle of skill. bp fought him to a draw, cap's made him look like an amateur and logan is considerably more skilled as well. fist is good, and it wouldn't be a clean sweep either way, but i'll take bats 6/10 and every fight is very close.

with weapons bats outthinks him and ko's via long range weapons.

Iron Fist was mind controlled against BP, BP has superhuman stats, that was Priest era full Vibranium Suit Panther (who would beat Batman so hard he'd retire if the two fought), and he used tech to win.

Iron Fist is on the same level as Shiva, Dragon and Turner, above Batman. The fact that Wolverine and Cap are better than Iron Fist, is just further proof that Marvel has a deeper pool of street level talent than DC.

Originally posted by leonidas
pure h2h no ironfist or amping? no way IF is clearly better. i'll take bats in a battle of skill. bp fought him to a draw, cap's made him look like an amateur and logan is considerably more skilled as well. fist is good, and it wouldn't be a clean sweep either way, but i'll take bats 6/10 and every fight is very close.

with weapons bats outthinks him and ko's via long range weapons.

The only fight between him and cap I know of was in his first series, while he was holding back.

Assuming it's that one, i don't think a young early danny is a good example of how skilled he is.

Danny's been upgraded since his scuffles with Cap and BP, not just in terms of chi power, but in terms of skill display, as well.

I see him dictating the pace of the fight w/o chi and beating Bruce. With chi, it's a god damn massacre.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Iron Fist was mind controlled against BP, BP has superhuman stats, that was Priest era full Vibranium Suit Panther (who would beat Batman so hard he'd retire if the two fought), and he used tech to win.

true, fist was mindcontrolled, but he was also going all out with his chi. with the suit BP would beat bats, without suit, straight skill i'll take bats over BP, like i'd take DD over BP in straight skill, without suit. the same DD who has also stalemated ironfist in a battle of straight skill.....



well, that at least is right.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Danny's been upgraded since his scuffles with Cap and BP, not just in terms of chi power, but in terms of skill display, as well.

I see him dictating the pace of the fight w/o chi and beating Bruce. With chi, it's a god damn massacre.

in terms of skill? hmm, i'm not so sure of that. that run he had in his own series he had some uber damn impressive feats, and in that early powerman and ironfist series he again has some crazy feats--easily some of his best. his chi is better, for sure. his skill? maybe, but not enough to place him 'clearly' and 'well' above bats. i understand a close majority, but there's no chance anyone can convince me danny>>>bats in pure h2h skill.

Originally posted by leonidas
true, fist was mindcontrolled, but he was also going all out with his chi. with the suit BP would beat bats, without suit, straight skill i'll take bats over BP, like i'd take DD over BP in straight skill, without suit. the same DD who has also stalemated ironfist in a battle of straight skill.....



well, that at least is right.

Mind control makes characters sloppy.

DD has better body reading than Batgirl, his has trumped a superhuman with legitimate precog. DD is more formidable in melee that Batman is.

Originally posted by leonidas
in terms of skill? hmm, i'm not so sure of that. that run he had in his own series he had some uber damn impressive feats, and in that early powerman and ironfist series he again has some crazy feats--easily some of his best. his chi is better, for sure. his skill? maybe, but not enough to place him 'clearly' and 'well' above bats. i understand a close majority, but there's no chance anyone can convince me danny>>>bats in pure h2h skill.

The BP fight was semi recent so not as much. But he has been portrayed as better since the cap fight which was very early on.

But yeah when mind controlled against BP he was basically just swinging around, even tried to hit him with a car (by driving it) hard to say he was fighting at his best skill wise. :/

Danny isn't >>> Bruce in skill, but he is > him. By how much? By more or less the same margin as Dragon, Shiva or Tiger, which isn't an overwhelming or insurmountable difference, but still enough that Bruce would loss a noticeable majority of fights without his armor or gear.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
With the help of some context.

He actually stalemated 3boot Val, who can pretty much do anything Danny can do. Almost.

Hey Prep-Man remember when 3boot Val got beat up by telepathic security guards?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Mind control makes characters sloppy.

DD has better body reading than Batgirl, his has trumped a superhuman with legitimate precog. DD is more formidable in melee that Batman is.

doh

stop hatin' on bats and you're lucky i like DD. i'd take dd over bats in h2h because of the radar, not because of skill. i'd say bats>dd in overall skill, but not by much. i see danny and dd as roughly the same level skillwise.

Batman pummels IF with the hammers of justice.

I KNEW you were going to say that.

Those high tech guards could be > Danny as well.

Originally posted by jalek moye
The BP fight was semi recent so not as much. But he has been portrayed as better since the cap fight which was very early on.

But yeah when mind controlled against BP he was basically just swinging around, even tried to hit him with a car (by driving it) hard to say he was fighting at his best skill wise. :/

fair enough, but likewise bp wasn't really going for the kill either. i see danny>bp skillwise, but the gap isn't all that great imo.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Scenario one Batman gets brutalized. Scenario two Danny gets put to sleep with gas.

Danny would do as well or better (read: better) than Bruce did against those KK. I would give IF a comfortable majority against 3boot KK.

pretty much this.

Originally posted by leonidas
doh

stop hatin' on bats and you're lucky i like DD. i'd take dd over bats in h2h because of the radar, not because of skill. i'd say bats>dd in overall skill, but not by much. i see danny and dd as roughly the same level skillwise.

Daredevil is Batman... if Batman had Cass's body reading and Nightwing's speed and agility. Matt is as strong and as skilled as Bruce, as fast and agile as Nightwing, and he has a radar sense that affords him better body reading than Batgirl. DD > Batman.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Daredevil is Batman... if Batman had Cass's body reading and Nightwing's speed and agility. Matt is as strong and as skilled as Bruce, as fast and agile as Nightwing, and he has a radar sense that affords him better body reading than Batgirl. DD > Batman.

i agree with pretty much all of this, except the skill, which dd makes up for with the agility and body reading. you really think danny is significantly better than dd in h2h?? what makes you think that?

Tbh, in a straight up fight sans weapons and gadgets, I have a hard time seeing Batman beating Daredevil.

I'm also curious what skill feats of Bruce we're using to justify him being = or > Danny.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
pretty much this.

3boot Val has the speed advantage, IMO. He dodged Ultraboy, killed a cybernetic creature that was pounding on the Legion by himeslf. And this was when his arm was injured. KK > IF.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Tbh, in a straight up fight sans weapons and gadgets, I have a hard time seeing Batman beating Daredevil.

I'm also curious what skill feats of Bruce we're using to justify him being = or > Danny.

Batman will be facing off against Talon. Someone who survived a fall from a tall building and is close or Bullseye lite.

batman is so overrated on theses forums its not funny.


batsiee dies in one and can possible win in 2.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Batman will be facing off against Talon. Someone who survived a fall from a tall building and is close or Bullseye lite.

I assumed this was pre-reboot Bats, who has a wealth of feats to draw upon to make things fair. Though, DCnU Bats is more or less the same guy anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter.

I see Danny doing at least as well against Talon in terms of sheer skill. With chi, I see him beating the crap out of him.

Originally posted by leonidas
i agree with pretty much all of this, except the skill, which dd makes up for with the agility and body reading. you really think danny is significantly better than dd in h2h?? what makes you think that?

Even sans body reading DD is more or less as skilled as Bruce.

I don't think IF is significantly better than DD, I think he is slightly more skilled than Matt, just like he is slightly more skilled than Batman. But DD has abilities Batman lacks that allow him to pose a bigger threat in melee combat despite being less skilled. Batman vs Iron Fist wouldn't play out anything like the fights between Matt and Danny, Matt's radar sense is a huge boon to his combat abilities.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Batman will be facing off against Talon. Someone who survived a fall from a tall building and is close or Bullseye lite.

And Danny beat down a guy sans chi, who tanks Luke Cage punches, and building busting attacks and had the range advantage. Said guy is also a martial arts master

If this is reboot Batman he gets his ass kicked so hard that it isn't even funny.

Originally posted by jalek moye
And Danny beat down a guy sans chi, who tanks Luke Cage punches, and building busting attacks and had the range advantage. Said guy is also a martial arts master

I'm not doubting IF. He's one of my favs, but Val did manage to kill a creature that both Timber Wolf and Ultraboy couldn't dent. Cage isn't near Ultraboy.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'm not doubting IF. He's one of my favs, but Val did manage to kill a creature that both Timber Wolf and Ultraboy couldn't dent. Cage isn't near Ultraboy.

My posts was a response to you talking about batman about to face talon, and naming his feat. Not KK

Well, we need to see more of DCnU Batman. It's only been a handful of issues and he's going to face some formidable streets. Nobody and Talon, plus the whole Court of Owls.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Well, we need to see more of DCnU Batman. It's only been a handful of issues and he's going to face some formidable streets. Nobody and Talon, plus the whole Court of Owls.

NoBody and Talon both beat his ass though, so did *groan* Oneface before he keeled over. Pretty much all Batman has done so far in DCnU is get beat up.

LOL! And by some other dude. Was it Joker? Penguin? LOL! True, but this is how you get better, by facing beings greater than you.

lol Batman really has been getting the shit kicked out of him lately, hasn't he?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Even sans body reading DD is more or less as skilled as Bruce.

i agree it's very close. but i think bats has a slight edge. but you're right, matt's advantages more than make up for the skill edge.



i agree the fights would be very different. i'd also take dd over danny in straight h2h because of his radar, like i'd take him over bats.

sounds like we're sorta/mostly on the same page regarding the 3. you give the slight egde in skill to danny and matt, i give it to bats but we agree they're close. i attribute the amount you're wrong by to your well-known bat hate. but i forgive you.

I'm telling you. DCnU is much weaker than DCU. Superman is midtier at best.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'm telling you. DCnU is much weaker than DCU. Superman is midtier at best.

I don't really agree.

Honestly, my impression is that Superman is definitely being showcased as a beast in terms of where he stands with his peers. In DCU continuity, I don't see an early Superman taking on a early GL and Flash with the same level of ease as he did in the pages of Justice League. He's also fairly young in his career, too.

If anything, DCnU seems to be going out of its way to explicitly show Superman being > everyone else whereas DCU showed that at times, but it wasn't nearly as pronounced.

So, you think DCnU Superman = DCU Superman?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
LOL! And by some other dude. Was it Joker? Penguin? LOL! True, but this is how you get better, by facing beings greater than you.

Did Croc beat him too or was that right before the reboot?

Nah, I think he beat Croc in 1st issue of Batman. But there was someone in Detective that almost got the best of him. Was Dollmaker? Or his minions? I know he got his ass beat by them at first.

But they seem formidable too. Sneaking up on Batman.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
So, you think DCnU Superman = DCU Superman?

Not right now, no.

But I do feel DCnU Superman > Byrne's Superman. Given that the DCnU is only five years old in terms of where the modern superheroes stand, I definitely don't think this version of Superman is going to be inferior to DCU's as time progresses. The way his attitude is portrayed as being more aggressive and assertive, hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Kal winds up getting better feats in time.

Basically, you have to look at it like this:

Current Superman has been Superman for about 5-6 years.

Pre Flashpoint Superman has been Superman for anywhere up to 15-ish years, give or take due to the sliding time scale of comics. Give them the same amount of experience in terms of in-universe time, and any gap will be negligible, if it even exists at all.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Not right now, no.

But I do feel DCnU Superman > Byrne's Superman. Given that the DCnU is only five years old in terms of where the modern superheroes stand, I definitely don't think this version of Superman is going to be inferior to DCU's as time progresses. The way his attitude is portrayed as being more aggressive and assertive, hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Kal winds up getting better feats in time.

Basically, you have to look at it like this:

Current Superman has been Superman for about 5-6 years.

Pre Flashpoint Superman has been Superman for anywhere up to 15-ish years, give or take due to the sliding time scale of comics. Give them the same amount of experience in terms of in-universe time, and any gap will be negligible, if it even exists at all.

What about WW? I don't think she can fly right now.

Originally posted by leonidas
i agree it's very close. but i think bats has a slight edge. but you're right, matt's advantages more than make up for the skill edge.



i agree the fights would be very different. i'd also take dd over danny in straight h2h because of his radar, like i'd take him over bats.

sounds like we're sorta/mostly on the same page regarding the 3. you give the slight egde in skill to danny and matt, i give it to bats but we agree they're close. i attribute the amount you're wrong by to your well-known bat hate. but i forgive you.

In my defense I'd like Batman more if he was a better character.

In all honesty I'm a Batman fan, if I wasn't I wouldn't read his comics. But what I am not is a mindless Batman fanboy or a causal, so I don't think that "trololololol Batkick! Batman > everything! lawlz!" I actually read comics, and when I wear a Batman t-shirt it damn sure doesn't have Heath Ledger Joker on it. Reading street level comics is what I do, I know these characters, I know how skilled Batman is, I know where he falls into a skill hierarchy of DC characters and I know it's not on the number one spot, nor is it in the top five. Batman not being the best isn't a slight against his character, it's just the reality things. Marvel has a larger and more diverse street level pantheon than DC does, it would be unrealistic to assume that the best in DC would be the equal of the best in Marvel. I don't let Batman's popularity influence my opinion of the character.

I said this before but it's still apt, just swap out Dragon for Iron Fist:

Bruce returned to Gotham when he was 25 after training / traveling for twelve years. That twelve years wasn't solely devoted to martial arts and fighting either, in that period he also became proficient in virtually every field of science (likely got some business / economics degrees considering his day job), and really every possible hobby or activity on the planet. There is plenty of room for humans to better fighters than him. Batman isn't the best fighter and he has never been billed as such. He is the best detective. Other than criminology and his skills as a detective there is someone better than Batman in virtually every field. What there isn't, is a more rounded character. Look at it this way, in terms of martial prowess Batman is Salieri. He is among the top of his field but not on quite on par with prodigies like Mozart (Dragon / Shiva / Turner)... but the thing that you need to remember is that Batman is Salieri in virtually every single field a person could think of. Batman is the sum of his parts, and that sum is above every other human character by a pretty large margin...

well... every other human character not named Doom.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
What about WW? I don't think she can fly right now.

WW is probably the opposite case.

Prior to Flashpoint (and that horrendous JMS angle), Diana had been steadily powered up since her (re)introduction during Perez' days. She's back to square one in every sense of the word. We'll have to see how she fares against her peers or other familiar characters in order to gage her, but Superman thinks she's strong, so that's a good start.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I don't really agree.

Honestly, my impression is that Superman is definitely being showcased as a beast in terms of where he stands with his peers. In DCU continuity, I don't see an early Superman taking on a early GL and Flash with the same level of ease as he did in the pages of Justice League. He's also fairly young in his career, too.

If anything, DCnU seems to be going out of its way to explicitly show Superman being > everyone else whereas DCU showed that at times, but it wasn't nearly as pronounced.

Being stronger relative to his peers doesn't really remove the possibility that he is weaker in the bigger picture. Which he is. Superman is supposed to be the first superhero, so he has had more experience with his powers than Hal, and lets be honest there is a much easier learning curve to Superman's power set than a Green Lantern ring. And I would say it's not that Superman looked good against GL, it's that GL looked bad.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
In my defense I'd like Batman more if he was a better character.

In all honesty I'm a Batman fan, if I wasn't I wouldn't read his comics. But what I am not is a mindless Batman fanboy or a causal, so I don't think that "trololololol Batkick! Batman > everything! lawlz!" I actually read comics, and when I wear a Batman t-shirt it damn sure doesn't have Heath Ledger Joker on it. Reading street level comics is what I do, I know these characters, I know how skilled Batman is, I know where he falls into a skill hierarchy of DC characters and I know it's not on the number one spot, nor is it in the top five. Batman not being the best isn't a slight against his character, it's just the reality things. Marvel has a larger and more diverse street level pantheon than DC does, it would be unrealistic to assume that the best in DC would be the equal of the best in Marvel. I don't let Batman's popularity influence my opinion of the character.

I said this before but it's still apt, just swap out Dragon for Iron Fist:

Bruce returned to Gotham when he was 25 after training / traveling for twelve years. That twelve years wasn't solely devoted to martial arts and fighting either, in that period he also became proficient in virtually every field of science (likely got some business / economics degrees considering his day job), and really every possible hobby or activity on the planet. There is plenty of room for humans to better fighters than him. Batman isn't the best fighter and he has never been billed as such. He is the best detective. Other than criminology and his skills as a detective there is someone better than Batman in virtually every field. What there isn't, is a more rounded character. Look at it this way, in terms of martial prowess Batman is Salieri. He is among the top of his field but not on quite on par with prodigies like Mozart (Dragon / Shiva / Turner)... but the thing that you need to remember is that Batman is Salieri in virtually every single field a person could think of. Batman is the sum of his parts, and that sum is above every other human character by a pretty large margin...

well... every other human character not named Doom.

nice. i can live with that. and i knew you didn't hate batman.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
In my defense I'd like Batman more if he was a better character.

In all honesty I'm a Batman fan, if I wasn't I wouldn't read his comics. But what I am not is a mindless Batman fanboy or a causal, so I don't think that "trololololol Batkick! Batman > everything! lawlz!" I actually read comics, and when I wear a Batman t-shirt it damn sure doesn't have Heath Ledger Joker on it. Reading street level comics is what I do, I know these characters, I know how skilled Batman is, I know where he falls into a skill hierarchy of DC characters and I know it's not on the number one spot, nor is it in the top five. Batman not being the best isn't a slight against his character, it's just the reality things. Marvel has a larger and more diverse street level pantheon than DC does, it would be unrealistic to assume that the best in DC would be the equal of the best in Marvel. I don't let Batman's popularity influence my opinion of the character.

I said this before but it's still apt, just swap out Dragon for Iron Fist:

Bruce returned to Gotham when he was 25 after training / traveling for twelve years. That twelve years wasn't solely devoted to martial arts and fighting either, in that period he also became proficient in virtually every field of science (likely got some business / economics degrees considering his day job), and really every possible hobby or activity on the planet. There is plenty of room for humans to better fighters than him. Batman isn't the best fighter and he has never been billed as such. He is the best detective. Other than criminology and his skills as a detective there is someone better than Batman in virtually every field. What there isn't, is a more rounded character. Look at it this way, in terms of martial prowess Batman is Salieri. He is among the top of his field but not on quite on par with prodigies like Mozart (Dragon / Shiva / Turner)... but the thing that you need to remember is that Batman is Salieri in virtually every single field a person could think of. Batman is the sum of his parts, and that sum is above every other human character by a pretty large margin...

well... every other human character not named Doom.

I agree with most of this, actually.

Batman's intended to be a jack of all trades, and while he is a master martial artist and definitely capable of holding his own against anyone of similiar skill or greater to a point, his character isn't designed to be the most epic fighter of all time. He's a detective, the World's Greatest. Fans and writers tend to forget that, though, when they portray Batgod raping the JLA on his own.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Being stronger relative to his peers doesn't really remove the possibility that he is weaker in the bigger picture. Which he is. Superman is supposed to be the first superhero, so he has had more experience with his powers than Hal, and lets be honest there is a much easier learning curve to Superman's power set than a Green Lantern ring. And I would say it's not that Superman looked good against GL, it's that GL looked bad.

I respectfully disagree.

Considering it was Johns' of all people who had Superman handle Hal in that fashion, I think it speaks volumes of where the brass of DC feels Superman stands in the early days.

Besides, Superman is purposefully designed to always get better and more powerful with time. Present day Hal > Year One Hal, sure. But that definitely applies to Superman as well.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
With his standard gadgets on hand? Not for a majority, imho.

Given the starting distances, I can't see Batman getting the chance to pull a fight ending device before Danny sprints up to him and puts his fist through his chest.

Not for a majority, at any rate.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I respectfully disagree.

Considering it was Johns' of all people who had Superman handle Hal in that fashion, I think it speaks volumes of where the brass of DC feels Superman stands in the early days.

This is a good point, but even Johns isn't immune to editorial mandates.

If DC execs say not to chump out Supes, he doesn't get to chump out Supes.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I respectfully disagree.

Considering it was Johns' of all people who had Superman handle Hal in that fashion, I think it speaks volumes of where the brass of DC feels Superman stands in the early days.

Besides, Superman is purposefully designed to always get better and more powerful with time. Present day Hal > Year One Hal, sure. But that definitely applies to Superman as well.

Even current 5 years later Hal is kind of a witless smuck in the DCnU though

Originally posted by cdtm
This is a good point, but even Johns isn't immune to editorial mandates.

If DC execs say not to chump out Supes, he doesn't get to chump out Supes.

It's not like he has to answer to anyone outside of DiDio and Lee. And let's not kid ourselves, Geoff Johns probably has the most pull out of any single writer in DC right now in terms of "rank". Everyone just lets Morrison do whatever the hell he wants because they know it'll sell.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Even current 5 years later Hal is kind of a witless smuck in the DCnU though

Only because Johns' love for Sinestro outweighs his love for Hal.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Only because Johns' love for Sinestro outweighs his love for Hal.

Yeah, if he could have his way Sinestro would've saved the day in Blackest Night and War of the GL's.

But that's one case I'd say even his influence falls short.

Originally posted by cdtm
Yeah, if he could have his way Sinestro would've saved the day in Blackest Night and War of the GL's.

But that's one case I'd say even his influence falls short.

He may have had Hal get the "final word" in those events, but the fact he made Sinestro the first White Lantern and somehow, impossibly, get re-drafted to the Green Lantern Corps due to his badassery...er, I mean, willpower, says a lot.

I can't even remember the last time Hal cleanly beat Sinestro under his own power since Johns took over. Hell, he probably hasn't.

Anyway, I don't think Johns' was forced to make Superman beat Hal in such a fashion. I think DCnU is trying to give us a more, for lack of a better term, "badass" Superman, and as such, he showed Hal what was up. I just get this vibe that Superman is clearly going to be portrayed above his peers, at least more often, in this canon than in DCU canon.

Meh, comparing skill between street level fighters usually results in an exercise in futility. Unlike strength, speed, or any other factor that can be quantified and weighed against the environment in some fashion, skill is almost always determined by how you fair against anybody that's billed as being 'the best'.

Batman being 'pretty good at everything but not the best at anything (save forensics)' sounds like a nice in writing, but often isn't the case. Batman is often simply the best at whatever he commits himself to, often to the point of ridiculousness.

That being said, there's not a lot of strong arguments to back up the notion that the top streets at Marvel are for some reason or another more skilled than those at DC simply because there are more of them. If the analogy were drawn between the JLA and Avengers trinities, preboot Bats would mentally be the Tony and physically be the Cap, and that's pretty much how I've always seen him. I guess that may be because I see company portrayal as the most valuable tool for determining something intangible and unquantifiable such as skill level for a fictional martial artist.

I guess that's the nature of the beast though.

Originally posted by Existere
Meh, comparing skill between street level fighters usually results in an exercise in futility. Unlike strength, speed, or any other factor that can be quantified and weighed against the environment in some fashion, skill is almost always determined by how you fair against anybody that's billed as being 'the best'.

Batman being 'pretty good at everything but not the best at anything (save forensics)' sounds like a nice in writing, but often isn't the case. Batman is often simply the best at whatever he commits himself to, often to the point of ridiculousness.

That being said, there's not a lot of strong arguments to back up the notion that the top streets at Marvel are for some reason or another more skilled than those at DC simply because there are more of them. If the analogy were drawn between the JLA and Avengers trinities, preboot Bats would mentally be the Tony and physically be the Cap, and that's pretty much how I've always seen him. I guess that may be because I see company portrayal as the most valuable tool for determining something intangible and unquantifiable such as skill level for a fictional martial artist.

I guess that's the nature of the beast though.

this view is also very accurate, and one i've echoed in the past. oddly though, i don't find it impossible to reconcile both this view AND srank's. i've used the iconic stature of a character as a reason for believing a character wins OFTEN in the past. many will simply refer to this 'company status' as a euphemistic form of PIS. not me, but many. and i can't even call the view unjustified. i just don't always agree with it. i think that's why i still say bats>danny or dd in terms of pure skill. the notion of who bats is and where he fits in the hierarchy of the company is powerful. srank will say look beyond that at specific feats alone. i think BOTH can be used to view the character in his/her entirety. in fact, i think both NEED to be viewed.

Originally posted by leonidas
srank will say look beyond that at specific feats alone.

Sranks also a pretty big Cap and Wolverine booster, though, and they're at a similar place in Marvels hierarchy as Bats is in DC. If he really looked at feats alone, I don't see how he could downplay Danny Rand so much..

Originally posted by leonidas
this view is also very accurate, and one i've echoed in the past. oddly though, i don't find it impossible to reconcile both this view AND srank's. i've used the iconic stature of a character as a reason for believing a character wins OFTEN in the past. many will simply refer to this 'company status' as a euphemistic form of PIS. not me, but many. and i can't even call the view unjustified. i just don't always agree with it. i think that's why i still say bats>danny or dd in terms of pure skill. the notion of who bats is and where he fits in the hierarchy of the company is powerful. srank will say look beyond that at specific feats alone. i think BOTH can be used to view the character in his/her entirety. in fact, i think both NEED to be viewed. Yeah, and I agree, I think you should take into account as much as you can basically. Determining how a comic would portray a fight isn't really the point of discussion, cause I know that in a comic Batman would last a lot longer against a fully powered Danny Rand than he has any right. But if a fight is set up as a pure contest of skill, there isn't a lot else to fall back on other than icon status.

I guess I could argue that Danny without chi probably lacks the strength, speed and durability feats to compete with Bruce, but mostly I'd bet on Batman because I think he's just plain better, and largely that's because he's portrayed in a brighter light in these settings.

srug

Originally posted by cdtm
Sranks also a pretty big Cap and Wolverine booster, though, and they're at a similar place in Marvels hierarchy as Bats is in DC. If he really looked at feats alone, I don't see how he could downplay Danny Rand so much..

the former is debateable--especially logan. the latter? i...really don't know what you're saying there. srank isn't downplaying danny at all. he already said he thought danny>bats. :confusing:

Originally posted by Existere
I guess I could argue that Danny without chi probably lacks the strength, speed and durability feats to compete with Bruce, but mostly I'd bet on Batman because I think he's just plain better, and largely that's because he's portrayed in a brighter light in these settings.

srug

and maybe that's unfair to danny, but...... yeah.

Originally posted by Existere
Meh, comparing skill between street level fighters usually results in an exercise in futility. Unlike strength, speed, or any other factor that can be quantified and weighed against the environment in some fashion, skill is almost always determined by how you fair against anybody that's billed as being 'the best'.

Batman being 'pretty good at everything but not the best at anything (save forensics)' sounds like a nice in writing, but often isn't the case. Batman is often simply the best at whatever he commits himself to, often to the point of ridiculousness.

That being said, there's not a lot of strong arguments to back up the notion that the top streets at Marvel are for some reason or another more skilled than those at DC simply because there are more of them. If the analogy were drawn between the JLA and Avengers trinities, preboot Bats would mentally be the Tony and physically be the Cap, and that's pretty much how I've always seen him. I guess that may be because I see company portrayal as the most valuable tool for determining something intangible and unquantifiable such as skill level for a fictional martial artist.

I guess that's the nature of the beast though.

Yeah... company portrayal (I'm assuming this means feats?) is virtually 100% what I'm going on. The idea that Batman is the best is %100 fabricated fan nonsense. He isn't the strongest. He isn't the fastest. He isn't the most skilled. When has DC ever portrayed Batman as being the most skilled fighter? Never. The fact is there are numerous accounts of narrative statements from his friends and peers where they have stated someone is more skilled then him and there are few pieces of anecdotal evidence? Where is the Captain America equivalent of Oracle saying Black Canary is more skilled than Bruce, or Nightwing saying Connor is more skilled than Bruce or Dragon saying Bruce is a "talent amateur, ect ect"? Examples like that doesn't exist. Where is the Batman equivalent of him beating Shang-Chi? Where is the Batman equivalent of Shang-Chi's rogue gallery admitting Captain America is more skilled than Shang? Where is the Batman equivalent of Captain America saying Mantis level skills isn't enough to beat him? Ect. With all his gear and equipment the best Batman has ever accomplished is stalemate a top tier martial artist... and most of those examples took place in pre-crisis. Iron Fist has fought Daredevil more times than all the times Batman has fought a top tier martial artist combined... and like I said most of those examples are PC.

Originally posted by leonidas
the former is debateable--especially logan. the latter? i...really don't know what you're saying there. srank isn't downplaying danny at all. he already said he thought danny>bats. :confusing:

He only downplays Danny when it comes to top tier Marvel, like Cap and Wolverine.

I don't see how it's debatable at all, both could be considered flagship characters in Marvel. Cap, especially, will put up a good fight against almost anyone regardless of their feats. Wolverine, he could suffer more from "Worf Effect", but the fact he's usually the "measuring stick" for guys like Deadpool to defeat is testament to his status..

Originally posted by cdtm
He only downplays Danny when it comes to top tier Marvel, like Cap and Wolverine.

I don't see how it's debatable at all, both could be considered flagship characters in Marvel. Cap, especially, will put up a good fight against almost anyone regardless of their feats. Wolverine, he could suffer more from "Worf Effect", but the fact he's usually the "measuring stick" for guys like Deadpool to defeat is testament to his status..

What are you talking about? I don't down play Danny, I just know Cap and Wolverine are better than him... because they are.

"Guys like Deadpool" have only beaten Wolverine when he didn't have a healing factor, they had prep, or he took a fall.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yeah... company portrayal (I'm assuming this means feats?) is virtually 100% what I'm going on. The idea that Batman is the best is %100 fabricated fan nonsense. He isn't the strongest. He isn't the fastest. He isn't the most skilled. When has DC ever portrayed Batman as being the most skilled fighter? Never. The fact is there are numerous accounts of narrative statements from his friends and peers where they have stated someone is more skilled then him and there are few pieces of anecdotal evidence? Where is the Captain America equivalent of Oracle saying Black Canary is more skilled than Bruce, or Nightwing saying Connor is more skilled than Bruce or Dragon saying Bruce is a "talent amateur, ect ect"? Examples like that doesn't exist. Where is the Batman equivalent of him beating Shang-Chi? Where is the Batman equivalent of Shang-Chi's rogue gallery admitting Captain America is more skilled than Shang? Where is the Batman equivalent of Captain America saying Mantis level skills isn't enough to beat him? Ect. With all his gear and equipment the best Batman has ever accomplished is stalemate a top tier martial artist... and most of those examples took place in pre-crisis. Iron Fist has fought Daredevil more times than all the times Batman has fought a top tier martial artist combined... and like I said most of those examples are PC.

Back on Alvaro's Battleboard, there was a guy named Cain Marco who used to go on about the "Cap Factor". Basically, anyone who fought Cap, or was on panel with him, would go on about how strong and fast and skilled he is, despite having fought characters of superior stats or skill in the past.

For example, Spider Man gets hit by Cap, and asks him "What are you packing, atom bombs?" Spidey's been hit by guys like Venom, Scorpian, Rhino, Hulk, but he's impressed by Caps hitting power? Or, another time he'll comment on Caps speed, even though he's fought superhumanly quick characters before. More recently, your boy Wolverine talked about how Cap gave him one of the worst beatings of his life, and he's been beaten by class 100's (And even though it was Wayverine, doesn't take away from the fact this is a pretty common occurrence with Cap.)

You're right that Cap gets a lot of praise and hype from other characters, but that doesn't make it proof that he's > anyone in and of itself..

Originally posted by cdtm
He only downplays Danny when it comes to top tier Marvel, like Cap and Wolverine.

I don't see how it's debatable at all, both could be considered flagship characters in Marvel. Cap, especially, will put up a good fight against almost anyone regardless of their feats. Wolverine, he could suffer more from "Worf Effect", but the fact he's usually the "measuring stick" for guys like Deadpool to defeat is testament to his status..

in terms of company status, and the way the 'universe' views him, batman has it all over logan. i'm not speaking strictly of 'cash cow-ness'. cap is much closer, but even cap doesn't have the history of batman. bats has been integral to the dcu for what--80 years, give or take??? cap has come to mean approximately the same thing. logan? no way. that is no way is a comparison of the 2 and how they perform IN COMICS. but if we did a marvel trinity, no way logan makes the top 3. the dc trinity has been firm for a very long long time.

Originally posted by leonidas
in terms of company status, and the way the 'universe' views him, batman has it all over logan. i'm not speaking strictly of 'cash cow-ness'. cap is much closer, but even cap doesn't have the history of batman. bats has been integral to the dcu for what--80 years, give or take??? cap has come to mean approximately the same thing. logan? no way. that is no way is a comparison of the 2 and how they perform IN COMICS. but if we did a marvel trinity, no way logan makes the top 3. the dc trinity has been firm for a very long long time.

The Marvel Trinity in terms of in-universe importance is Cap, Thor, and Iron Man.

Originally posted by cdtm
Back on Alvaro's Battleboard, there was a guy named Cain Marco who used to go on about the "Cap Factor". Basically, anyone who fought Cap, or was on panel with him, would go on about how strong and fast and skilled he is, despite having fought characters of superior stats or skill in the past.

For example, Spider Man gets hit by Cap, and asks him "What are you packing, atom bombs?" Spidey's been hit by guys like Venom, Scorpian, Rhino, Hulk, but he's impressed by Caps hitting power? Or, another time he'll comment on Caps speed, even though he's fought superhumanly quick characters before.

You're right that Cap gets a lot of praise and hype from other characters, but that doesn't make it proof that he's > anyone in and of itself..

Spider-man survives getting hit by those guys by nature of being fast enough that they only connect with glancing blows, which he mitigates further by rolling with the blow. Captain America has class 2 strength, superhuman combat speed, and flawless technique. It would need to impossible to quantify how hard the guy can hit. Imagine if Mike Tyson could punch as fast as Manny Pacquiao... then imagine if he was 5-10x faster and 5-10x stronger, and about 100 times more skilled and he targeted all his punches at vital areas and pressure points. Cap hits like a tank.

You can ignore all the praise Cap gets if you want, but your still left with the fact that he beats those people.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The Marvel Trinity in terms of in-universe importance is Cap, Thor, and Iron Man.

maybe. it would be a good debate. personally i think i would sub tony for spidey. leaving hulk out doesn't feel quite right either though....

i did a marvel mount rushmore thread in the comicbook section once. it was a fun thread.

Originally posted by leonidas
in terms of company status, and the way the 'universe' views him, batman has it all over logan. i'm not speaking strictly of 'cash cow-ness'. cap is much closer, but even cap doesn't have the history of batman. bats has been integral to the dcu for what--80 years, give or take??? cap has come to mean approximately the same thing. logan? no way. that is no way is a comparison of the 2 and how they perform IN COMICS. but if we did a marvel trinity, no way logan makes the top 3. the dc trinity has been firm for a very long long time.

Seriously. Marvel hasn't even put Wolverine in any of their major events since HoM. Batman showed up for an issue in Blackest Night... and he was "dead" at the time.

Originally posted by Existere


I guess I could argue that Danny without chi probably lacks the strength, speed and durability feats to compete with Bruce, but mostly I'd bet on Batman because I think he's just plain better, and largely that's because he's portrayed in a brighter light in these settings.

srug

Except that he does have all that. Danny has feats like any other peak human without his chi. There's nothing to suggest that he lacks the speed and strength to fight Batman. When Danny loses his chi he's either just like cap and them or so weakened he can barely stand. Since I'm assuming this fight is he has his chi but isn't using it, it'd be the former.

what from Danny makes you think he can't compete with batman?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Seriously. Marvel hasn't even put Wolverine in any of their major events since HoM. Batman showed up for an issue in Blackest Night... and he was "dead" at the time.



/discussion.

always fun srank. peace

Originally posted by leonidas
maybe. it would be a good debate. personally i think i would sub tony for spidey. leaving hulk out doesn't feel quite right either though....

i did a marvel mount rushmore thread in the comicbook section once. it was a fun thread.

In terms of popularity, it would probably be Spider-Man, Hulk, and Wolverine.

But in terms of how the characters view each other, it's the Big Three Avengers. The Avengers are cited as being "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" and have saved the day more times than I can care to count. And of the Avengers, those three simply are regarded the highest among them.

Originally posted by leonidas
always fun srank. peace

Take it easy.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
In terms of popularity, it would probably be Spider-Man, Hulk, and Wolverine.

But in terms of how the characters view each other, it's the Big Three Avengers. The Avengers are cited as being "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" and have saved the day more times than I can care to count. And of the Avengers, those three simply are regarded the highest among them.

Pretty much.

Originally posted by jalek moye
what from Danny makes you think he can't compete with batman? Nothing.

There are things from Batman that make me think he edges out Danny though, should Rand not have access to chi. ermmOriginally posted by srankmissingnin
Yeah... company portrayal (I'm assuming this means feats?) is virtually 100% what I'm going on. The idea that Batman is the best is %100 fabricated fan nonsense. He isn't the strongest. He isn't the fastest. He isn't the most skilled. When has DC ever portrayed Batman as being the most skilled fighter? Never. The fact is there are numerous accounts of narrative statements from his friends and peers where they have stated someone is more skilled then him and there are few pieces of anecdotal evidence? Where is the Captain America equivalent of Oracle saying Black Canary is more skilled than Bruce, or Nightwing saying Connor is more skilled than Bruce or Dragon saying Bruce is a "talent amateur, ect ect"? Examples like that doesn't exist. Where is the Batman equivalent of him beating Shang-Chi? Where is the Batman equivalent of Shang-Chi's rogue gallery admitting Captain America is more skilled than Shang? Where is the Batman equivalent of Captain America saying Mantis level skills isn't enough to beat him? Ect. With all his gear and equipment the best Batman has ever accomplished is stalemate a top tier martial artist... and most of those examples took place in pre-crisis. Iron Fist has fought Daredevil more times than all the times Batman has fought a top tier martial artist combined... and like I said most of those examples are PC. Fair enough, and I'm not really going to take this disagreement much further because it means investing more time in combing through comments on Cap than I feel like doing. Honestly, I feel like I'm sure I can recall comments comparing Cap to a really skilled amateur, or something to that effect, but it's not super important because they're only comments. I dunno, maybe someday soon I'll sit down and try to pick apart why I see Batman as being portrayed at a slightly higher level than Danny or Matt.

Not tonight though.

Anyways, Danny wrecks him in round 2.

Originally posted by Existere
Nothing.

There are things from Batman that make me think he edges out Danny though, should Rand not have access to chi. ermm Fair enough, and I'm not really going to take this disagreement much further because it means investing more time in combing through comments on Cap than I feel like doing. Honestly, I feel like I'm sure I can recall comments comparing Cap to a really skilled amateur, or something to that effect, but it's not super important because they're only comments. I dunno, maybe someday soon I'll sit down and try to pick apart why I see Batman as being portrayed at a slightly higher level than Danny or Matt.

Not tonight though.

Anyways, Danny wrecks him in round 2.

Fair enough.

The closest thing is Iron Fist saying Cap has a "simple" fighting style, which he does, especially compared to the ornate, elaborate and largely impractical style of Kung Fu that Danny uses, but the "simplicity" doesn't detract from it's effectiveness.

Wolverine also said he was better than Cap once. That's about it though.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Mind control makes characters sloppy.

DD has better body reading than Batgirl, his has trumped a superhuman with legitimate precog. DD is more formidable in melee that Batman is. your still trying to pass this bs off? a year ago vance astro proved you wrong on this on comicvine so you come here and still try to spread the same bs? daredevil isn't, never was and never will be on batmans level, its just your constant tendency to downplay dc characters lol

u truly are pathetic.

Originally posted by proofin
your still trying to pass this bs off? a year ago vance astro proved you wrong on this on comicvine so you come here and still try to spread the same bs? daredevil isn't, never was and never will be on batmans level, its just your constant tendency to downplay dc characters lol

u truly are pathetic.

lol

Do you know what the word "proved" means? Well apparently Vance Asto's impotent attempt to argue his case was enough to sway an idiot like you, but I have the felling he had a slightly more ambitious goal in mind.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
lol

Do you know what the word "proved" means? Well apparently Vance Asto's impotent attempt to argue his case was enough to sway an idiot like you, but I have the felling he had a slightly more ambitious goal in mind.

Pretty sure that's just Wang again.

Lets not feed the trolls. ^_^