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Who is the most powerful archangel of all? Does anyone know the answer? Or is it conflicted? the Jews think it's Metatron. And christians and Catholics think it's Michael. Is there really a definate answer to this?

I imagine various religions would answer the question in different ways, hence, different religions

Melchizedek>Both g_serious

As for this question, Michael is a soldier while Metatron is a spokesman, one can bench more than the other.

I think Metatron would rank higher though in the grand scheme of things.

What do you mean by "more powerful"? Chain of command?
If God is Picard, Metatron is Riker. Michael is Worf. Metatron wins.

Originally posted by Mindship
What do you mean by "more powerful"? Chain of command?
If God is Picard, Metatron is Riker. Michael is Worf. Metatron wins.

doesn't chain of command equal power? I though Metatron is more like a judge than anything else.

Lol, hypothetical religious vs. battles. Stay classy, forum.

Bonus points for Metatron just having a cooler name, though. I'm shocked Transformers hasn't co-opted it to mess with religious people.

Originally posted by CosmicSurfer
doesn't chain of command equal power? I though Metatron is more like a judge than anything else. I've read Heavenly Scribe and/or the official Voice of God.


Originally posted by Digi
Bonus points for Metatron just having a cooler name, though. H'mmm...maybe not for humans (the kid would never find a key ring or mug with his name on it -- although lately, all kinds of names are being pulled out of hats). Also, "Metatron" means something like, "behind the throne" of God, whilst (yeah, this is the thread for using that word) "Michael" means, "who resembles God." I think Michael has a cooler meaning (even better than "Kal-El," which actually does resemble the Hebrew words, "voice of God".
Originally posted by Digi
I'm shocked Transformers hasn't co-opted it to mess with religious people. Seriously, I'm wondering if they were even aware of the name. "Mega" has been a trendy prefix for a while now, whilst ... ... "tron" is good for anything electronic.

Superman > Metatron > Michael??

Seems legit. Thanks for the info, Mind.

Originally posted by Digi
Superman > ...

spite

Originally posted by Digi
Lol, hypothetical religious vs. battles. Stay classy, forum.
Thank you for your valuable contribution to this thread. As you are a longtime poster here at KMC, we are keenly interested in your thoughts, opinions, and ideas. Please continue to update us on a regular basis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOqg5bPZ0HE I thought this short little ditty was interesting

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Thank you for your valuable contribution to this thread. As you are a longtime poster here at KMC, we are keenly interested in your thoughts, opinions, and ideas. Please continue to update us on a regular basis.

You forgot /sarcasm ...wouldn't want your scathing commentary to leak into your future posts.

I mean, come on, it's a religious vs. battle. It might as well be South Park's Jesus vs. Santa for all we'll be able to comment on it with any validity.

But I AM real!


Signed with cookies,
Santa

Originally posted by CosmicSurfer
Who is the most powerful archangel of all? Does anyone know the answer? Or is it conflicted? the Jews think it's Metatron. And christians and Catholics think it's Michael. Is there really a definate answer to this?

The Jews control the world, so I'd go with their pov.

Considering all I know about Metatron I learned from "Dogma," I gotta go with Michael. I don't think he's an archangel, that'd be Gabriel, but he's warrior angel? Now I'm stepping in stuff that I learned a great deal about by watching "Supernatural."

Analogy : Sauron, Sauron's Mouth, The Witch King.

Witch King's way more powerful, he's in the army. Mouth of Sauron just speaks for Sauron. I'm sure he could do more if it were up to him, but he's on Sauron's leash.

Best religion thread ever.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Considering all I know about Metatron I learned from "Dogma," I gotta go with Michael. I don't think he's an archangel, that'd be Gabriel, but he's warrior angel? Now I'm stepping in stuff that I learned a great deal about by watching "Supernatural."

He is an Archangel. I don't know the exact number of them, but I know Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel are among them.

Also I seem to recall seeing a heirarchy where Archangels weren't at the top of the chain of command, it went Seraphim, Cherubim, Archangels, and Angels.

The Demiurge is the most powerful non-god force in Abrahamic myth, though it's mainly Gnostic.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
He is an Archangel. I don't know the exact number of them, but I know Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel are among them.

Also I seem to recall seeing a heirarchy where Archangels weren't at the top of the chain of command, it went Seraphim, Cherubim, Archangels, and Angels.

The official ranking from Aquinas et al. puts Archangels way down at the bottom.

The thing about Metatron is that he surprised Rabbi Akiva (who, in some Kabbalah circles, was considered more enlightened than Moses). Akiva had a vision, saw two beings seated among the heavenly hosts, and questioned that maybe there was not one, but two Great Divine Powers (this perhaps being the greatest blasphemy a Jew could utter).

Metatron set him straight. "Naw, mortal dude, I'm just writin' stuff down."

On the other hand, whilst Metatron gets a stylus, Michael gets a sword. starwars

People call on Michael for protection and Metatron for answers and communication then? Though I've known people that also say that Metatron is above Michael. I don't understand why because Michael is the warrior.

He seems to be the "In" guy now. Maybe it's the cool name. lol

Metatron is just sitting because his lower back problem.

I'm not sure where Lucifer ranks on the scale but Michael can hold his own against Satan and at least come to a draw.

Originally posted by Cyner
I'm not sure where Lucifer ranks on the scale but Michael can hold his own against Satan and at least come to a draw.
Michael>Satan. In most traditions I've heard Michael is the one who defeats Satan in battle on Judgment Day.

Originally posted by CosmicSurfer
Who is the most powerful archangel of all? Does anyone know the answer? Or is it conflicted? the Jews think it's Metatron. And christians and Catholics think it's Michael. Is there really a definate answer to this?

According to the bible its Micheal.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Michael>Satan. In most traditions I've heard Michael is the one who defeats Satan in battle on Judgment Day.

Pretty much.

I think Optimus Prime is better than Metatron.

Religion VS forum... go go go!

Originally posted by Deja~vu
People call on Michael for protection and Metatron for answers and communication then? Though I've known people that also say that Metatron is above Michael. I don't understand why because Michael is the warrior. The impression I get is that Metatron is God's executive officer. Other than God's, there is no higher perspective of the Big Picture than Metatron's. Mystically speaking, "he" could be the first emanation out of the void in the action of creation.

If these angels were men, we'd be pitting physical strength and skill against broad vision and influence. Depends what you want to call more powerful.

I think Metatron would be way higher. The reason is because, Metatron is said to have a "name like his master" because, I understand his name is numerically equivalent to YHWH? (I don't speak Hebrew, this is just what I've heard). True names are important in judeo-christian mysticism, so, on this basis Metatron has a "supreme" name. My understanding is that this is actually the reason he is so valued by Kabbalists.

Another reason why Metatron would win, is because there is a midrash where Egyptian wizards tried to ascend to heaven, and neither Michael or Gabriel could force them out; however, when Metatron appeared he easily was able to do so. Based on this I think Metatron is supreme in combat as well as authority.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Another reason why Metatron would win, is because there is a midrash where Egyptian wizards tried to ascend to heaven, and neither Michael or Gabriel could force them out; however, when Metatron appeared he easily was able to do so. Based on this I think Metatron is supreme in combat as well as authority.
Lol, what a low showing for the Archangels.

Jobbing like mad. The writer was clearly just trying to give Metatron a push, something to put in his respect thread.

I hope Gaiman rectonned that crap. uhuh

On a biblical basis, Michael is a territorial angel, governing Israel, comparable to similar angels who rule over Greece or Persia. Since Israel is God's elect nation, he is first among such angels, but, compared to an angel like Metatron with a more fundamental role, Michael is more a "mundane" specimen.

Metatron is more of a behind the curtains enigmatic type of angel. Wasn't he human before? His name was enoch. How could a human turned archangel be superior to a pure archangel like Michael. metatron is more of a scribe. Like God's secretary.

Originally posted by CosmicSurfer
How could a human turned archangel be superior to a pure archangel like Michael.

Because God made him more powerful the Michael.

Originally posted by CosmicSurfer
Metatron is more of a behind the curtains enigmatic type of angel. Wasn't he human before? His name was enoch. How could a human turned archangel be superior to a pure archangel like Michael. metatron is more of a scribe. Like God's secretary.
Metatron is no archangel, I think he outclasses any angel... he is beyond any choir, he is a unique specimen. The highest choir, the seraphs, have 6 wings. Metatron has 36, which is 6 squared. I interpret this to mean, he is an "order of magnitude" above any other angel. With YHWH, all things are possible. I see no reason a saint like Enoch could not surpass an angel, if YHWH wills it. In fact, man is God's favorite creation; a fully realized saintly man, should have no fear of any angel. Plus, a lot of scholars don't think the Metatron who is Enoch is the same as the heavenly scribe Metatron.

Another reason why I say Metatron is higher, is because in the Kabbalah Metatron is aligned with the highest sephirot, the crown of the tree, this further attests to his supremacy.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Another reason why I say Metatron is higher, is because in the Kabbalah Metatron is aligned with the highest sephirot, the crown of the tree, this further attests to his supremacy. ... Keter: the first emanation.

Originally posted by CosmicSurfer
metatron is more...Like God's secretary. And as any honest boss will tell you, a good secretary is the one who keeps things organized and running.

The point here is Metratron is barely mentioned in the Talmud or the bible. Which are all canon. Metatron only exists in jewish mystic cults. Like the Kaballah. The book of enoch is non-canonical.

Michael has more feats in canon. While Metatron is an enigmatic figure who works behind closed doors. While Michael takes on a more active combat role in battles against evil. It seems that these two are at least equal but with different powers and roles. But most likely, Michael is the stronger of the two because of his many well known battle feats. He's more well established.

Originally posted by CosmicSurfer
The point here is Metratron is barely mentioned in the Talmud or the bible. Which are all canon. Metatron only exists in jewish mystic cults. Like the Kaballah. The book of enoch is non-canonical.

Michael has more feats in canon. While Metatron is an enigmatic figure who works behind closed doors. While Michael takes on a more active combat role in battles against evil. It seems that these two are at least equal but with different powers and roles. But most likely, Michael is the stronger of the two because of his many well known battle feats. He's more well established.
The only reason why he has "more feats" is because you just disregarded all of Metatron's... obviously, the Kaballah is "non-canonical" to those who don't use it... to Kabbalists, it IS canonical. If we include the bible only, Metatron doesn't even exist. Obviously, once you include an extra-canonical character, you've made the decision to also accept his scriptural domain of origin. You may as well say, Michael will lose because he has no feats if we go by the Bagavad Gita.

In the Zohar, the main Kabbalah text, Metatron is referred to as "the king of angels..."
(Zohar 49. Ki Tetze: 28: 138)

From my experience Metatron seemed like a shaft of light - almost like God if you will. Michael seemed, yes, like a warrior. I had known Michael and other archangels 1st & they seemed so immensely powerful to me. When I met Metatron I was shocked to notice that this one was even more powerful than the others who I had previously thought none were more powerful than.

Tier 0

YHWH

Tier 1

Sopheriel YHWH Mehayye
Sopheriel YHWH Memeth

Tier 2

Azbugah YHWH

Tier 3

Zehanpuryu YHWH

Tier 4

Shoqed Chozi

Tier 5

Ashiel YHWH

Tier 6

Anaphiel YHWH

Tier 7

Zakzakiel YHWH

Tier 8

Gallisur YHWH

Tier 9

Ashruylu YHWH

Tier 10

Araphiel YHWH

Tier 11

Geburatiel YHWH

Tier 12

Zazriel YHWH

Tier 13

Sasnigiel YHWH

Tier 14

Na'aririel YHWH (Metatron)

Tier 15

Atrugiel

Tier 16

Tutresiel YHWH

Tier 17

Hamon

Tier 18

Barattiel

Tier 19

Tag'as

Tier 20

Gabriel
Michael
Raphael
Uriel

Tier 21

The door keepers of the seventh hall

Tier 22

The door keepers of the sixth hall

Tier 23

The door keepers of the fifth hall

Tier 24

The door keepers of the fourth hall

Tier 25

The door keepers of the third hall

Tier 26

The door keepers of the second hall

Tier 27

The door keepers of the first hall in the 'Araboth Raqia'

Tier 28

The seventy-two princes of kingdoms

Tier 29

Prince of the seventh heaven

Tier 30

Prince of the sixth heaven

Tier 31

Prince of the fifth heaven

Tier 32

Prince of the forth heaven

Tier 33

Prince of the second heaven

Tier 34

Prince of the first heaven

Tier 35

Angels from the first heaven

LOL@ all the people in this thread who have claimed that angels are fictional. They're as real as you or I.


I've never heard of this Metatron before though. Show me where he is mentioned in the bible please. I've always thought that archangel Michael was the highest ranked angel followed by archangel Gabriel. The name Michael even means "He who is like God" and yes, supposedly he is the one who bested Lucifer during the rebellion. Which is most ccertainly not some made-up tale regardless of what all the misinformed people in this thread wanna believe.
.

Metatron is an angel in Judaism. He's not mentioned in the Bible.

If we go strictly by the Bible Michael is the only archangel.

Originally posted by Star428
LOL@ all the people in this thread who have claimed that angels are fictional. They're as real as you or I.
.

Then it should be easy for you to provide some proof. Without proof, it is just your imagination.

We've been through this before. I say provide proof, and you can't. The reason you cannot prove that angels exist is because they do not exist.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then it should be easy for you to provide some proof. Without proof, it is just your imagination.
I can't prove that you're straight.

Q.E.D.

Originally posted by Astner
I can't prove that you're straight.

Q.E.D.

But that is provable.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But that is provable.
Only if I choose to accept whatever evidence you're presenting.

Originally posted by Astner
Only if I choose to accept whatever evidence you're presenting.

Who gives a shit?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Who gives a shit?
You apparently. That's what I'm getting at.

Originally posted by Astner
You apparently. That's what I'm getting at.

No, I don't care about what you think about my sexuality.

http://www.seadooforum.com/images/smilies/FacePalm.gif

Originally posted by Astner
http://www.seadooforum.com/images/smilies/FacePalm.gif

Originally posted by Astner
Metatron is an angel in Judaism. He's not mentioned in the Bible.

If we go strictly by the Bible Michael is the only archangel.






Gabriel is mentioned many times both in the old and new testaments. He's the one who appeared to Mary and told her who it was (Jesus) that she was expecting.

Originally posted by Star428


Gabriel is mentioned many times both in the old and new testaments. He's the one who appeared to Mary and told her who it was (Jesus) that she was expecting.
But only Michael is specifically referred to as the Archangel.

Why in the world did this get bumped? Astner, did you come up with that tier ranking on your own, or is it a copy/paste from somewhere? And if it's the former, what possessed you to make it?

Originally posted by Digi
Astner, did you come up with that tier ranking on your own, or is it a copy/paste from somewhere? And if it's the former, what possessed you to make it?
I made it based on the third Book of Enoch, which has them listed in the same way. Well, technically it went like this:

(1) THE ANGELS OF THE FIRST HEAVEN, when(ever) they see their prince, they dismount from their horses and fall on their faces. And THE PRINCE OF THE FIRST HEAVEN, when he sees the prince of the second heaven, he dismounts, removes the crown of glory from his head and falls on his face. And THE PRINCE OF THE SECOND HEAVEN, when he sees the Prince of the third heaven, he removes the crown of glory from his head and falls on his face.

...

(12) And Sasnigiel YHWH, when he sees ZAZRIEL YHWH, the great prince, he removes the crown of glory from his head and falls on his face.

...

... all the way down to Sophiriel YHWH Mehayye (Who Killeth) and Memeth (Who Maketh).

But the hierarchy is pretty much follows Chapter 18 of the Book of Enoch.

That's awesome. Biblical tomes with tier rankings. Nice to see we haven't changed that much in 2,000 years or so.

good