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Standard gear for both. Who wins?

Batgirl baby!!!

Close fight.

Elektra rage stomps Batgirl. It's spit really.

Elektra would murder Cass.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Elektra rage stomps Batgirl. It's spit really.

Hah, just like she rage-stomps Daredevil?

Originally posted by Q99
Hah, just like she rage-stomps Daredevil?

Worse.

Elektra kills her

Cassie takes away her sais and stabs her worse than Bulls Eye did

It's always funny when someone insists a character matchup happens different than what happens in the comics between fairly regular foes (like Elektra vs DD).

Elektra.

BTW, how's her psychic powers these days? Not that she needs TP to win, but what levels are her psychic powers most recently.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Elektra rage stomps Batgirl. It's spit really.

Rage stomps?

So, who did you say you believe Cass can beat again? Or even tie? Batman, Captain America, Daredevil....?

Just wondering.

Originally posted by Q99
It's always funny when someone insists a character matchup happens different than what happens in the comics between fairly regular foes (like Elektra vs DD).

The last time they fought Elektra stood there and let Matt wail on her... and she still put him in a full nelson quickly the moment she made any effort to engage him. She's beat Daredevil every time they've fought, even before her death, resurrection and substantial speed, strength, speed and power amp, she was edging him out in combat. She's better than Matt, and according to her she knows how to avoid his radar sense, he stands not chance of beating her in a fight, and there is little in the way of on panel evidence to suggest otherwise.

Originally posted by cdtm
Rage stomps?

So, who did you say you believe Cass can beat again? Or even tie? Batman, Captain America, Daredevil....?

Just wondering.

No top tier street level MA. She can narrowly edge out Shiva after a hard fought fight solely because of CIS. Every 10 top street level martial artist would beat Cass in h2h. Nightwing was even confident he could beat her eventually even before his substantial RIP skill amp, do with that information what you will. Cass is over rated.

Elektra.

Personally, I do think Cass, while introduced as an incredibly formidable foe, isn't beyond people like Bruce, Steve, Matt, etc.

i think cass would beat batman in a long fight. she did better against slade than bruce, has a victory over shiva, and has better speed feats than batman.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Nightwing was even confident he could beat her eventually even before his substantial RIP skill amp, do with that information what you will.

And note that Cass had the upper hand in the fight despite what he said.

The only fight they had where he really did hold his own was after Bruce died.



Oh yes, the "Her entire history of fighting top-10 martial artists is PIS, even though it happens often and there are no times when any of them ever do better than stalemate her" hypothesis

Conner, Batman, Shiva (multiple times, during which Shiva was *never* said to be holding back or anything of the sort), Deathstroke, Vera Black mimicing Deathstroke, Black Canary, Nightwing... yes, all~l of how she compares against them is PIS


When your argument is pretty much someone's entire career is PIS, you really should just stop.

Originally posted by Q99
And note that Cass had the upper hand in the fight despite what he said.

The only fight they had where he really did hold his own was after Bruce died.



Oh yes, the "Her entire history of fighting top-10 martial artists is PIS, even though it happens often and there are no times when any of them ever do better than stalemate her" hypothesis

Conner, Batman, Shiva (multiple times, during which Shiva was *never* said to be holding back or anything of the sort), Deathstroke, Vera Black mimicing Deathstroke, Black Canary, Nightwing... yes, all~l of how she compares against them is PIS


When your argument is pretty much someone's entire career is PIS, you really should just stop.

Actually Dick said that in another story before that brief fight in BftC. Dick stalemated her in that fight during BftC before Alfred showed up, and that was before Dick was given an arbitrary skill amp for becoming Batman.

That list of names is more impressive than the "fights" that accompany them. Her "fight" with Connor was her attacking him because she thought he was an assassin, him holding his own while trying to reason with her and avoid a fight... and then Eddie dropping her with a blackjack. Her "fight with Canary was three pages where Canary avoided an ambush, tagged Cass twice and blocked the one attack Cass managed to levy against her. Nightwing isn't a top 10 MA and he still managed to stalemate her. Her "fight" with Batman was Batman holding back and trying to avoid conflict, while still more than holding his own. Vera Black and Cass were just putting on a show, it wasn't a real fight. Deathstroke was holding back. Batgirl admitted the only reason she was able to beat Shiva is because deep down Shiva wanted Cass to kill her.

Yes, I did refer to two separate fights for a reason. In the first one he said he thought he could win... but she still had the advantage in the actual fighting.



Bzzt, wrong. That was like, literally a day or two before becoming Batman. So he'd have the skill amp there as well.



She got hit with the blackjack on purpose so she could hear them talk and find out the truth, and revealed she was never KOed by it at all

'Him holding his own' also involved him getting hit a lot.




*Then* Cass said "Is this a joke?" and proceeded to knock her down and get a palm to the throat. Nice to leave that out.

There's also that she goes to Cass for training.




Only after Batman RIP, mind you. She had the advantage in the Redemption Road miniseries (the one where he claimed he could win), and has previously brushed him aside easily too (kicked him through a window when he tried to stop the big Batman/Batgirl fight).



What an interesting way of saying "he had to retreat against her the entire issue and play defensive" You say 'while still holding his own' as if it was harder to avoid being hit while running a lot, rather than him running a lot being how he avoided her.

Remember, he was not once trying to stop the fight. He wanted to fight with her to communicate. He was still retreating constantly.

Also, they were both under influence of Soul, meaning they weren't/couldn't be holding back.


Don't forget the other time in sparing where she got a hit on him that made him cough up blood without him even noticing.



In one fight out of three, while in the other two he wasn't, and he openly admits he can't hit her without getting in her head in the third one. Hey, nice lying

And note that when he holds back, she has the flat-out advantage.



Bzzt. Cassandra simply noted that all of Shiva's fights have been Shiva looking for her own death. I.e. that applies to every Shiva fight ever.

C'mon, you've been corrected on this stuff before. You leave something major out of *every fight*.


Guess I should expect no better from a lying lier that lies.

LOL sits back and enjoys the ride

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, I did refer to two separate fights for a reason. In the first one he said he thought he could win... but she still had the advantage in the actual fighting.



Bzzt, wrong. That was like, literally a day or two before becoming Batman. So he'd have the skill amp there as well.


The skill amp Dick got was completely arbitrar thoughy, he was amped merely because he dawned the cowl and by nature of being Batman he was written more formidable than he was prior to it. Logically considering the time line he should have been as skilled as it was only days apart from him becoming Batman, but he wasn't. Looking back on it now, and knowing what happened later it doesn't make much sense, but the onus is on the writers to explain this stuff in a reasonable way. Dick wasn't gradually amped up to Batman level as RIP ended and BftC started, he simply put on the cowl and became better.

Originally posted by Q99
She got hit with the blackjack on purpose so she could hear them talk and find out the truth, and revealed she was never KOed by it at all

'Him holding his own' also involved him getting hit a lot.


I never said she was koed, I said she was dropped... which she was. She faked being unconscious so she could listen to their intent, there is no indication she took the hit on purpose.

Connor avoided or blocked half of Cass's attacks and he wasn't even putting any effort into fighting her. There is little in that fight that suggests that had Connor bothered to fight back, Cass would have been able to keep up.


Originally posted by Q99
*Then* Cass said "Is this a joke?" and proceeded to knock her down and get a palm to the throat. Nice to leave that out.

There's also that she goes to Cass for training.


That happened after their little exchange ended. Cass took her by surprise and attacked Dinah while her guard was down because she thought BC knew where Shiva was. Dinah wasn't even look at her when Cass attacked. I don't see it as being incredibly relevant, which is why I left it out. That's like Marrow taking Wolverine by surprise and stabbing him in the throat after he tooled her and was helping her up. In the initial exchange Cass at least knew that Dinah was going to attempt to stop her attack and was ready for what was going to happen... she was just unable to stop it. The part you are referring to was Cass essentially blind siding Black Canary.


Originally posted by Q99
Only after Batman RIP, mind you. She had the advantage in the Redemption Road miniseries (the one where he claimed he could win), and has previously brushed him aside easily too (kicked him through a window when he tried to stop the big Batman/Batgirl fight).


Nightwing used to suck, it wasn't so long ago that Batman was able to completely no sell Dick in melee, and Bruce did so without the aid of a body reading ability. That's just how substantial the gab between Nightwing and the top tier streets was. He is much better now than he was, citing old stuff like that is like pretending Black Canary's old fights prior to One Year Later and Gail amping her skill are even slightly relevant to battles involving current incarnations of the character.

Originally posted by Q99
What an interesting way of saying "he had to retreat against her the entire issue and play defensive" You say 'while still holding his own' as if it was harder to avoid being hit while running a lot, rather than him running a lot being how he avoided her.


He didn't have to retreat, he chose to retreat because he was trying to avoid a fight, every time the fight came into melee he had no trouble hold his own, he even had the clear advantage before Nightwing stepped in.

Originally posted by Q99
Remember, he was not once trying to stop the fight. He wanted to fight with her to communicate. He was still retreating constantly.

Also, they were both under influence of Soul, meaning they weren't/couldn't be holding back.


Bruce was composed enough under the influence of Soul to dictate the course of the fight, he said so himself to Oracle at the end of the issue, or the start of the next one. Bruce wasn't fighting Batgirl, he was letting Batgirl fight him so she could work some stuff out... which is why he was retreating the entire time. If he was in a drug induced rage and was actively trying to beat up Batgirl it would have been a much different fight, and it wouldn't have been him easily avoiding her for the majority of an issue...

Originally posted by Q99
Don't forget the other time in sparing where she got a hit on him that made him cough up blood without him even noticing.


Originally posted by Q99
In one fight out of three, while in the other two he wasn't, and he openly admits he can't hit her without getting in her head in the third one. Hey, nice lying

And note that when he holds back, she has the flat-out advantage.



Batgirl never had the advantage against Slade. She had the illusion of the advantage. He wasn't fighting her, he was luring to Rose, which he did.

No Deathstroke was holding back in all three of those fights. The narration of the second fight simple confirms / reinforced what everyone suspect about the initial encounter, that Slade was holding back their too. The only time Slade has but any effort into fighting Batgirl was during Titans where he pinned her to the ground virtually instantly and Jericho had to save her ass (also that reminds me that indication of the end of one of those issues is that Nightwing one-shoted Cass to prevent her from trying to kill Slade lol).

Originally posted by Q99
Bzzt. Cassandra simply noted that all of Shiva's fights have been Shiva looking for her own death. I.e. that applies to every Shiva fight ever.


I'm afraid not. When Cass asked Shiva if she will ever stop killing, she said something like "That's why I had you." She has brought Cass back to life twice because she wants Cass to kill her and take her place. She even had a smile on her face when she thought Cass was going to kill her the last time they fought, because that's what she wants. She doesn't want Batman to kill her. She doesn't want Dragon or Ben or Connor to kill her. She wants Cass to killer and essentially become her. Her losses to Cass are all CIS.

For what it's worth, that doesn't indicate that Shiva was holding back against Cass. That line could easily be interpreted as Shiva acknowledging that Cass can beat her and grant her deathwish.

It's ambiguous though.

Originally posted by Existere
For what it's worth, that doesn't indicate that Shiva was holding back against Cass. That line could easily be interpreted as Shiva acknowledging that Cass can beat her and grant her deathwish.

It's ambiguous though.

Fair enough, but I think that it is enough especially in light of Cass's previous admittance that she was only able to beat Shiva initially because of her death wish, to make that claim. We aren't talking about a massive handicap, but when dealing with two top ten MA's that are so close in skill it's enough to sway the outcome fight.

Originally posted by Existere
For what it's worth, that doesn't indicate that Shiva was holding back against Cass. That line could easily be interpreted as Shiva acknowledging that Cass can beat her and grant her deathwish.

It's ambiguous though.

If she was holding back, she wouldn't have had to bring Cass back to life.

I think Cass won their second fight legit, but simply refused to kill her.

Yar.

Sounds like how Joss Whedon explained away Spike able to kill two slayers, then get continuously rocked by Buffy.

'deathwish'

Originally posted by Existere
Yar.

Sounds like how Joss Whedon explained away Spike able to kill two slayers, then get continuously rocked by Buffy.

'deathwish'

Exactly.

Originally posted by cdtm
If she was holding back, she wouldn't have had to bring Cass back to life.

I think Cass won their second fight legit, but simply refused to kill her.

Cass did get the better of her.

Originally posted by Existere
Yar.

Sounds like how Joss Whedon explained away Spike able to kill two slayers, then get continuously rocked by Buffy.

'deathwish'


Except, mind you, Cassandra said this was why Shiva fought *every* battle, so it's not a fight-specific thing.

It wasn't like Spike who sought them out at low-points. Shiva wanted someone who could kill her at her best and that's why she traveled the world seeking the greatest foes.

She even later said she was really proud of Cassandra for being strong enough to defeat her.