Phoenix vs Onslaught

Mr Master

Onslaught ftw.

The Force betting blown into billions of pieces isn't a fluke or pis.
It happened again when the Shiar ripped it back to reality by force
and consequently shattered it again.

An Alien Ship impaled the Force, drained it and nearly killed it.

6 heroes (5 from the Ultraverse and Rogue) battered and tired,
stalemated and then drove back the Force into a portal displacing it across space-time.

btw. This isn't an avatar we're talking about, this is the actual Phoenix Force.

-----------------------------------

The Force is powerful, no doubt, Universal when it's at its best,
but its durability is paltry to say the least.

Also,
Jean never held any Timeline in her hands,
that was Sublime's atoms she was controlling,
not the visualization of reality 15104 in her hands.
She did however alter that HCT-Reality by time traveling to the past,
and changing Scotts's mind about staying with the X-Men.
This in-turn assured Sublime would never rise in this possible alternate future.

Anyway, Jean amputated the future of reality 15104
by removing Sublime's atoms from reality and transferring said atoms into the WHR.

"telekinetic control of all those atoms isn't as easy as it sounds, even for a WPotC"

Scott created Reality 15104 (HCT) via a decision. (leaving the X-Men)
Scott altered Reality 15104 when he changed his mind (via Jean mind rape)

guy222

morning mr. m what do u think of the force returning in point one

rotiart

Originally posted by Mr Master
Onslaught ftw.

The Force betting blown into billions of pieces isn't a fluke or pis.
It happened again when the Shiar ripped it back to reality by force
and consequently shattered it again.

An Alien Ship impaled the Force, drained it and nearly killed it.

6 heroes (5 from the Ultraverse and Rogue) battered and tired,
stalemated and then drove back the Force into a portal displacing it across space-time.

btw. This isn't an avatar we're talking about, this is the actual Phoenix Force.

-----------------------------------

The Force is powerful, no doubt, Universal when it's at its best,
but its durability is paltry to say the least.

Also,
Jean never held any Timeline in her hands,
that was Sublime's atoms she was controlling,
not the visualization of reality 15104 in her hands.
She did however alter that HCT-Reality by time traveling to the past,
and changing Scotts's mind about staying with the X-Men.
This in-turn assured Sublime would never rise in this possible alternate future.

Anyway, Jean amputated the future of reality 15104
by removing Sublime's atoms from reality and transferring said atoms into the WHR.

"telekinetic control of all those atoms isn't as easy as it sounds, even for a WPotC"

Scott created Reality 15104 (HCT) via a decision. (leaving the X-Men)
Scott altered Reality 15104 when he changed his mind (via Jean mind rape)

Oh? I always thought jean was altering time itself. Not challenging you as this interpretation actually makes the Phoenix seem more reasonable to me... More Galactus like then TOAA like.

bbrem123

Onslaught wins

guy222

if i make a thread vs white phoenix of the crown, does onslaught still win friend

Power Cosmic II

Originally posted by Mr Master
Onslaught ftw.

The Force betting blown into billions of pieces isn't a fluke or pis.
It happened again when the Shiar ripped it back to reality by force
and consequently shattered it again.

An Alien Ship impaled the Force, drained it and nearly killed it.

6 heroes (5 from the Ultraverse and Rogue) battered and tired,
stalemated and then drove back the Force into a portal displacing it across space-time.

btw. This isn't an avatar we're talking about, this is the actual Phoenix Force.

-----------------------------------

The Force is powerful, no doubt, Universal when it's at its best,
but its durability is paltry to say the least.

Also,
Jean never held any Timeline in her hands,
that was Sublime's atoms she was controlling,
not the visualization of reality 15104 in her hands.
She did however alter that HCT-Reality by time traveling to the past,
and changing Scotts's mind about staying with the X-Men.
This in-turn assured Sublime would never rise in this possible alternate future.

Anyway, Jean amputated the future of reality 15104
by removing Sublime's atoms from reality and transferring said atoms into the WHR.

"telekinetic control of all those atoms isn't as easy as it sounds, even for a WPotC"

Scott created Reality 15104 (HCT) via a decision. (leaving the X-Men)
Scott altered Reality 15104 when he changed his mind (via Jean mind rape)

i'm pretty sure those were all the points that that phoenix fan was obsessing over several years ago

Mr Master

Originally posted by guy222

morning mr. m what do u think of the force returning in point one
I sincerely hope the Force is written as it should be,
a Universal Concept with universal power on an atomic level.

I can finally start giving it its due, cause for the most part, it's a disappointment.
Originally posted by rotiart

Oh? I always thought jean was altering time itself.
Wuts up good friend ...

She did alter that possible alternate future actually,
but it was in-directly as I explained. (via the Scott mind rape)
Originally posted by rotiart

Not challenging
you as this interpretation actually makes the Phoenix seem more
reasonable to me... More Galactus like then TOAA like.
Yea, it didn't make sense to me for a good while, I believe I was wrong then,
even though I disputed the exaggeration of the feat,
I still thought she actually did have an actual Universe in her hands,
but then I brought in facts as to why it was not and could not have been 616.

Nowadays, I understand that it was never an actual Universe to begin with, (ODB shares credit)
that it was simply a visualization of a damaged Universe (reality 15104)
and while it was dis-infected of Sublime by then, (future amputation)
the mess left behind was still there, X-Men were dead, and there was chaos,
so in order for Jean to prevent that future (15104) from even possibly happening,
she reached into 616 to the moment where Scott made his decision to leave the X-men,
which is what initially diverged Reality 15104 to begin with,
and so she made him change his mind about leaving,
this in turn, nullified 15104, since Scott never made the decision to create it.

Remember, all alternate possible future diverge/derive from 616,
and every character from Bishop to Guardians of the Galaxy that
altered their futures did it by traveling back to 616 and changing something.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by rotiart
Pros:
Jeans best feat! Altering timelines in the palm of her hands
Franklins best feat, creating pocket universes in the palm of his hand.

Jeans best feats would be telekinetically amputating the HCT timeline from the multiverse as depicted on panel and stated in the handbook.

Then preceding to materialize 616 atom by atom within the White Hot Room. A feat depicted artistically as 616 materialized in her hands and the Phoenix Consciousness told her that control of all of those atoms wasnt easy even for a White Phoenix. The point was further verified by the handbook adding to her powerset description that she can manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale following this event.

Franklin created a pocket reality. The sum of that reality was basically a planet. We saw nothing much else beyond that to indicate that reality was anywhere near the scale of a standard reality. Hence why it is officially classed as a pocket reality. Jeans universal scale matter manipulation was exponentially greater.

Originally posted by rotiart
Con:
Jean was defeated by the magnetic attack of Xorn
Onslaught has Xorn's powerset

She was not defeated in a confrontation with Xorn, she was powered down and comforting him, trying to convince him the error of his ways when he sneakily just attacked her. Be objective and put the instance in context.

When powered up and combat ready immediately before the Xorn incident she was within the Sun manipulating its energy and matter to telekinetically create a starship. Did Xorns attack possess more energy than the Sun?

Objectivity works wonders.

Originally posted by rotiart
Onslaught was argued to have the potential to increase his powers in confrontations with mutants And you are pitting him against an omega level mutant.

Theorized potentials mean nothing here, only demonstrated feats. Plus as stated on panel, a Phoenix is the ultimate point of mutation. Human mutation goes no further smile

Originally posted by rotiart
On paper I go with onslaught.

Then that would be quite puzzling confused

guy222

hulk smashing onslaught with his infinite strength is >phoenix also

be fair all

phoenix force is here to stay....it never dies

i always respect my two peers in this thread u know who u are

for the thread...still the force ftw

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jeans best feats would be telekinetically amputating the HCT timeline from the multiverse as depicted on panel and stated in the handbook.

Then preceding to materialize 616 atom by atom within the White Hot Room. A feat depicted artistically as 616 materialized in her hands and the Phoenix Consciousness told her that control of all of those atoms wasnt easy even for a White Phoenix. The point was further verified by the handbook adding to her powerset description that she can manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale following this event. She manifested a visualization of a universe in her hands and the phoenix flaring within that visualization was also a visualization. We know a universe-sized phoenix didn't flare up and muck up that universe. And nobody should seriously consider accepting that one was a visualization while the other isn't... just because.

And the "telekinetic control of all those atoms" is a reference to the atoms that made up Sublime. Not the universe's atoms.

Nobody cares about handbooks anymore, particularly when secondary sources conflict with each other, as they do in this instance and many others. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Objectivity works wonders. No kidding.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master
Onslaught ftw.

The Force betting blown into billions of pieces isn't a fluke or pis.
It happened again when the Shiar ripped it back to reality by force
and consequently shattered it again.

An Alien Ship impaled the Force, drained it and nearly killed it.

6 heroes (5 from the Ultraverse and Rogue) battered and tired,
stalemated and then drove back the Force into a portal displacing it across space-time.

btw. This isn't an avatar we're talking about, this is the actual Phoenix Force.

I love how you throw in that last line about it not being an avatar to cover yourself when thats exactly what it was in all of those situations.

As stated on panel the Phoenix Force and all it is is summed up not only within reality but outside of it to.

The firebird is not the full Phoenix Force but a representation of it within reality. It is stated in numerous comics, on numerous separate occasions to be merely an avatar of the Force.

I have shown many scans stating this point specifically however you ignore them, wait for me to go away for a little while and then reiterate the same rubbish because you are not seeking the truth here, merely trying to get as many people as possible to subscribe to your Marvel fantasies.

The Phoenix Firebird as shown on panel and as stated there and in the handbook is mutable, totally indestructible life force. It can be shattered, absorbed and utilized and still be unharmed. Energy cant be destroyed only transferred from state to state.

In the Ultraforce crossover series you mention and even in 616 there have been multiple Phoenix firebirds in operation at once. The blue Phoenix avatars wielded by Rachel and Korvus, the Phoenix shards wielded by the Cuckoos in Warsong. All in the same timeframe.

The firebird is a representation, there can be many at a time and have been, it is not the full force smile

Originally posted by Mr Master
Also,
Jean never held any Timeline in her hands,
that was Sublime's atoms she was controlling,
not the visualization of reality 15104 in her hands.
She did however alter that HCT-Reality by time traveling to the past,
and changing Scotts's mind about staying with the X-Men.
This in-turn assured Sublime would never rise in this possible alternate future.

Anyway, Jean amputated the future of reality 15104
by removing Sublime's atoms from reality and transferring said atoms into the WHR.

"telekinetic control of all those atoms isn't as easy as it sounds, even for a WPotC"

Scott created Reality 15104 (HCT) via a decision. (leaving the X-Men)
Scott altered Reality 15104 when he changed his mind (via Jean mind rape)

Complete rubbish and you know it.

Jean removed Sublime from reality and this bacterial infection was taken from from her by a mysterious black claw.

Jean stated on panel that she amputated HCT from reality and the point is confirmed in the m'kraan crystal handbook entry which remarks on how she severed it from the multiverse.

Jean was then directed to treat the wounded 616 (wounded from having HCT severed from it) universe, she materialized this in the white room as shown artistically and whilst it was being materialized the consciousness remarks on how control of all of those atoms is not easy even for a white phoenix.

Gazing into the universe to examine it she hears references to past events and she is told that she must sever ties with the universe by watering it with her hears blood. Basically giving up Scott, letting him go to Emma.

At this point she changes Scotts reaction to Emma and makes him stay with her, thereby preventing the event which triggered Here Comes Tomorrow in the 1st place smile

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean was then directed to treat the wounded 616 (wounded from having HCT severed from it) universe, she materialized this in the white room as shown artistically and whilst it was being materialized the consciousness remarks on how control of all of those atoms is not easy even for a white phoenix. Uh no. the consciousness' remarks are clearly referring to something she had already accomplished. Her telekinetic extraction of Sublime, which itself was referred to as the "surgery" and "disinfection." After praising her and comforting her about that feat, something starts manifesting itself in her hands. Why is he speaking in the past tense to something that hasn't occurred yet? She doesn't even know what's in her hands until they tell her. If she was telekinetically summoning all the atoms of the universe, how'd she not know what was materializing in her hands?

You've obfuscated the order of the statements and what actions they are obviously being ascribed to. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Gazing into the universe to examine it she hears references to past events and she is told that she must sever ties with the universe by watering it with her hears blood. Basically giving up Scott, letting him go to Emma.

At this point she changes Scotts reaction to Emma and makes him stay with her, thereby preventing the event which triggered Here Comes Tomorrow in the 1st place smile

Once again:

1) Jean pulls Sublime out of Beast with her telekinesis.
2) Jean asks, "Surgery complete?"
3) Jean travels to the White Hot Room. The Phoenix Force tells her that the "disinfection is complete," and she hands Sublime over to it to seal his influence away.
4) The other Phoenixes gather around her and tell her, "Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training, not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown." PAST TENSE.

5) THEN the universe begins to manifest itself in her hands.
5a) She asks what's in her hands.
5b) The Phoenix Force and the Phoenixes let her know what it is.
6) She realizes she needs to nudge Scott in order for such a future to not repeat itself in Earth-616 and the phoenix manifests itself on top of the universe in her hands. Which is all symbolic.

Because if what's going on in her hands isn't simply symbolic and a visualization, and that actually was the universe, then it was seriously getting messed up when a Phoenix flared up in it:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534476_nxm-154-22.jpg

Obviously the universe wasn't getting messed up. Ergo, what's going on in her hands is a symbolic visualization -- it demonstrates the gravity of her actions, that her nudging Scott will heal that timeline by preventing the dystopic future -- it's not a feat of telekinesis. Her feat of actual telekinesis was extracting Sublime from Beast. Less monumental feat for her, for sure. But the desire for her to have a bigger feat does not justify your interpretation.

guy222

happy holidays odg smile

how high on the cosmic hierarchy do u place the phoenix force

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
She manifested a visualization of a universe in her hands and the phoenix flaring within that visualization was also a visualization. We know a universe-sized phoenix didn't flare up and muck up that universe. And nobody should seriously consider accepting that one was a visualization while the other isn't... just because.

And the "telekinetic control of all those atoms" is a reference to the atoms that made up Sublime. Not the universe's atoms.

Nobody cares about handbooks anymore, particularly when secondary sources conflict with each other, as they do in this instance and many others. No kidding.

Have you actually read the issue?

If you have it couldnt have been anything more than a superficial look.

Allow me to invite you to take a more comprehensive look so that you may understand it better.

Sublime is disinfected from reality and Jean hold the bacterial colony in her hand the GREEN mass:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1305/nxm15418.th.jpg

Holding Sublime the GREEN mass she declares that she had to amputate the HCT reality and at this point the reality disappears and she is beyond reality. Looking at Sublime who she refers to as a rogue bacterial colony Jean asks if Sublime is what is in store for reality, the inevitable future "Is this the future?" The Consciousness tells her no and that Sublime only came to power like that because Jean messed up in her Phoenix work. She became too emotionally engaged. Jean despairs and says that her friends dont deserve a future like that. The Consciousness tells her its not the end yet and to turn around and look at the m'kraan crystal where she needs to heal the "patient". Notice that a black claw like appendage grasps the Sublime infection and carries it off in the opposite direction"

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5818/nxm15420.th.jpg

In the crystal where she was directed to heal this yet unrevealed patient she is told that telekinetic control of all of these atoms is not easy even for a white phoenix and with these words she manifests in her hands what the consciousness tells us is the universe-

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5170/nxm15421.th.jpg

A universe that we're shown is 616-

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3201/nxm15422.th.jpg

"Every diamond has its flaw"

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8963/nx119pg05.th.jpg

"Gus was a good dog"
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4808/xmen12308.th.jpg

"Are these words from the future"

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7448/newxmen12815.th.jpg

Jean is told that to heal the universe she wounded ( by messing up her Phoenix work, necessitating her to remove sublime and amputate the infected future) she must let go of scott, give him to Emma so they can forge a new future. "water it with your hearts blood" she then urges scott to stay with emma, changing the reaction that caused HCT.

Your mistake is in thinking they were visualizations instead of both literally being what theyre stated to be and artistically depicted to be.

The atoms arent Sublime, he was carried away much earlier on panel.

On the the previous panel Jean showed precedence for being able to perform enormous telekinetic feats on a universal scale by amputating HCt from reality.

So her materializing 616 so she could examine and heal it is completely feasible.

None the less its depicted artistically and supported by a handbook interpretation. Your interpretation that its sublime is conclusively contradicted on panel.

And the Phoenix affect flaring up on the universe is an artistic depiction of her applying her Phoenix power to reality. The Phoenix power doesnt always burn or harm, its mutable, can be any energy.

It can flare up and cause no harm-

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/1292/hrpage20.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Your argument is dust.

Be objective.

carver9

Wait a minute. Didn't Onslaught and Phoenix already meet and the battle didn't turn out to favor Phoenix at all?

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by carver9
Wait a minute. Didn't Onslaught and Phoenix already meet and the battle didn't turn out to favor Phoenix at all?

Nah. Onslaught and Jean Grey fought at a time when she was not in possession of the Phoenix Force. Onslaught visualized the Phoenix Force claiming he could give her back that level of power if she works with him and she attacked him with that visualization and Onslaught just stomped her laughing out loud

ExodusCloak

What I've learnt from the last few stories about the Phoenix Force is it winning depends entirely on the motivation of others.

For example, the Xorn thing. It's silly to keep bringing that up as an argument. It's flat out stated in Morrisons run that the Phoenix Force wanted Jean Grey to move onto another plane of existence to carry out Phoenix Work so that's why she had to die. The PF allowed Xorn to shatter it. The Shi'iar used a weapon to rebuild and shatter it again when it was still "incubating".

Also if you look at Uncanny X-Force the Phoenix Force turned on it's host because Apocangel was doing exactly what it wanted it to do.

The Phoenix is more powerful then Onslaught it'll kill him unless he's trying to restart life or something along those lines.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Uh no. the consciousness' remarks are clearly referring to something she had already accomplished. Her telekinetic extraction of Sublime, which itself was referred to as the "surgery" and "disinfection." After praising her and comforting her about that feat, something starts manifesting itself in her hands. Why is he speaking in the past tense to something that hasn't occurred yet? She doesn't even know what's in her hands until they tell her. If she was telekinetically summoning all the atoms of the universe, how'd she not know what was materializing in her hands?

You've obfuscated the order of the statements and what actions they are obviously being ascribed to. Once again:

1) Jean pulls Sublime out of Beast with her telekinesis.
2) Jean asks, "Surgery complete?"
3) Jean travels to the White Hot Room. The Phoenix Force tells her that the "disinfection is complete," and she hands Sublime over to it to seal his influence away.
4) The other Phoenixes gather around her and tell her, "Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training, not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown." PAST TENSE.

5) THEN the universe begins to manifest itself in her hands.
5a) She asks what's in her hands.
5b) The Phoenix Force and the Phoenixes let her know what it is.
6) She realizes she needs to nudge Scott in order for such a
future to not repeat itself in Earth-616 and the phoenix manifests
itself on top of the universe in her hands. Which is all symbolic.

Because if what's going on in her hands isn't simply symbolic and a
visualization, and that actually was the universe, then it was
seriously getting messed up when a Phoenix flared up in it:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534476_nxm-154-22.jpg

Obviously the universe wasn't getting messed up. Ergo, what's
going on in her hands is a symbolic visualization -- it demonstrates
the gravity of her actions, that her nudging Scott will heal that
timeline by preventing the dystopic future -- it's not a feat of
telekinesis.

Her feat of actual telekinesis was extracting Sublime from Beast.
Less monumental feat for her, for sure.

But the desire for her to have a bigger feat does not justify your interpretation.
thumb up

This is exactly right.

leonidas

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
What I've learnt from the last few stories about the Phoenix Force is it winning depends entirely on the motivation of others.

For example, the Xorn thing. It's silly to keep bringing that up as an argument. It's flat out stated in Morrisons run that the Phoenix Force wanted Jean Grey to move onto another plane of existence to carry out Phoenix Work so that's why she had to die. The PF allowed Xorn to shatter it. The Shi'iar used a weapon to rebuild and shatter it again when it was still "incubating".

Also if you look at Uncanny X-Force the Phoenix Force turned on it's host because Apocangel was doing exactly what it wanted it to do.

The Phoenix is more powerful then Onslaught it'll kill him unless he's trying to restart life or something along those lines.

nice. thumb up

and gs--the hell is up my brutha?? big grin

GalacticStorm

In the very sentence you refer to the consciousness remarks about how the task isnt as easy as it sounds in training Suggesting all of the Phoenixes in the Corps are trained in and prepared in the use of their telekinesis for such Phoenix work which explains the tense. With the Forces guidance the universe is manifested and manipulated within Jeans hands following the Forces warning that manipulation of all of those atoms is not as easy as it sounds in training.

Your sublime theory is out of the window because not only was the comment a warning as opposed to an appraisal, but sublime was dealt with a page before and taken away

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up

This is exactly right.

Translation: GS is stomping my ass, help!!! fear laughing out loud

guy222

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by leonidas
nice. thumb up

and gs--the hell is up my brutha?? big grin

Yooo. Wassuuup homie eek!

Long time. Hows things? I havent been around for like 9 months.

Im only back cos there are strong hints that Wandas House of M power up was from her tapping into the Phoenix Force. If that turns out to be true i'll stick around for a few months troll and then leave again laughing out loud

GalacticStorm

So just to reiterate:

1)Jean telekinetically extracts Sublime from reality but reality was so badly infected she had to amputate the HCt future.
2)Jean shifts to beyond reality and talks with the Force about how she messed up causing this disaster but her friends dont deserve Sublime as a future, Sublime is taken away by a black bird like appendage and Jean is told its not over go to the White Hot Room within the Mkraan crystal to heal the patient
3) The Phoenix Corps is revealed and the Consciousness reveals that Phoenixes go through training in the use of their telekinesis. Through the Force the wounded 616 universe is materialized and Jean controls the atoms in her hand and examines it
4) She is told by the Consciousness and other avatars that to heal the wound she caused by the amputation she must sever her emotional ties and alter Scotts negative reaction to Emma (caused by Jeans death) which lead to HCT. She does this leading to the HCT outcome being avoided and instead we get what we're reading about in Marvel comics now big grin

leonidas

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yooo. Wassuuup homie eek!

Long time. Hows things? I havent been around for like 9 months.

i know, it's been wayyyy too long! RL's been a ******* bi*** lately, but getting by. how bout you? school still? done? working? can't even remember WHERE you were last we talked, damn....

god help us all if that is true.... laughing

HA! nice. at least you're honest. no hidden agenda here. laughing out loud

leonidas

for those who want to know more about mbodies than anyone needs to, check out THIS classic.....

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t431793.html

Power Cosmic II

i've forgotten how entertaining the endless parades of scans and recursively repudiated logic are

http://imgur.com/tCp90.gif

guy222

its kmc

happy holidays my friend

leonidas

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
i've forgotten how entertaining the endless parades of scans and recursively repudiated logic are

http://imgur.com/tCp90.gif

that thread i linked to was unreal. laughing out loud

no way in hell i'd go to that extent in a debate now-a-days...

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
When Phoenixes exert power to a great enough extent, they are taken over by the Consciousness who takes the reins whilst the host plays audience. This was stated by Jean in New X-men a few issues before and i will gladly show the scan once i obtain it

In the very sentence you refer to the consciousness remarks about how the task isnt as easy as it sounds in training Suggesting all of the Phoenixes in the Corps are trained in and prepared in the use of their telekinesis for such Phoenix work which explains the tense. With the Forces guidance the universe is manifested and manipulated within Jeans hands following the Forces warning that manipulation of all of those atoms is not as easy as it sounds in training. Which is why it makes no sense for any Phoenixes to comfort/praise Jean for a feat she wasn't even accomplishing. We've gone over this before and you've never remedied this incongruence of comment -> action.

That's fine. And the only clear telekinetic feat at an atomic level that occurred was extracting Sublime completely from Beast. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your sublime theory is out of the window because not only was the comment a warning as opposed to an appraisal, but sublime was dealt with a page before and taken away
No. It was a comment in the past tense: "Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown." And sounding it out in conversation aptly reveals that. Example: Eli Manning just threw for 400 yds in a single game, his brother comments, "Passing for all those yards in a single game isn't as easy as it sounds in training not even for a Manning." That comment makes perfect sense in context.

Switch the order: Eli's brother, Peyton, comments to Eli, "Passing for all those yards in a single game isn't as easy as it sounds in training not even for a Manning." Manning goes on to pass for 400 yards in a game (and then does it -- without even knowing what he's doing). Peyton had no context for making that comment unsolicited before the feat actually occurred.

The latter is your interpretation and the English language does not lend itself to that. Grant Morrison's writing may be dense and layered, but he isn't daft. It's past tense. Clearly. And she just accomplished a telekinetic feat at the atomic level by extracting Sublime. Furthermore, we know bottom-line that half of what appears in her hands is a symbolic visualization. There is every reason to believe that the rest of it is also a symbolic visualization (unless you want PotWC to have a completely needless feat). These are just the two most glaring reasons why your interpretation is incorrect.

You're never going to get over that. And it isn't necessary to rehash the several other additional reasons that make it clear your interpretation is incorrect.

Sr J-Bieb

I agree with whoever gets the last word in thumb up

bbrem123

its a tie

zopzop

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
I agree with whoever gets the last word in thumb up

PERSONA!

Now mods quickly close this thread.....

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by leonidas
that thread i linked to was unreal. laughing out loud

no way in hell i'd go to that extent in a debate now-a-days...

Yh i dont have the energy for that kind of epic debating anymore either. Same stuff over and over again anyway erm

OneDumbG0

^ Which makes me wonder why none of it ever sinks in. biscuits

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Which makes me wonder why none of it ever sinks in. biscuits

How ironic.

At the end of the day ODG your interpretation has numerous holes that can not be argued out of. Mine is supported by on panel and handbook evidence as well as a wealth of Phoenix appearances.

You tried to argue the Consciousness' reference to controlling so many atoms being difficult was in reference to Sublime when he is just a bacterial colony that infected parts of earth, A measly amount of matter and as a bacterium a simple atomic structure.

The Phoenix Forces telekinetic prowess as shown by on panel feat rubbishes your interpretation. An interpretation fabricated merely because of the past tense used in the statement "Telekinetic control of all of those atoms is not as easy as it sounds in training"

Immediately after disinfecting the planet of Sublime, Jean telekinetically amputated an entire timeline an insane tk feat giving precedence for a high level of tk and u would argue removing bacteria from a few infected parts of Earth is difficult?

The whole New X-men series focused on the Phoenixes main power being "telekinetic godhood" complete and unparalleled control of matter down to its component parts.

Jean is shown telekinetically converting the matter of Asteroid M to make a star ship.

Jean also talks of how she can manipulate a universes atoms to create her own universe just a few issues before HCT arc started. And yet you would argue the Consciousness was telling her removing bacteria from Earth would be difficult for her? erm

We were prepared for Jeans final TK feat all the way through the series and told it was possible.

So in the White Hot Room after Sublime has long been dealt with and Jean is directed to treat the wounded universe, we are told control of all of those atoms isnt as easy as it sound in training.

We are presented with a classroom like environment with a watching Phoenix Corps and by statement it is revealed to us that previous to this moment Jean and the Phoenixes are trained in the use of their TK for complex atomic manipulation. We are also shown in the same series that when a Phoenix uses its power to a certain extent the Consciousness takes control of the vessel. All explained throughout New X-men.

So you have an explanation for the past tense and Jeans lack of knowledge about whats materializing. Through the Force the universe was materialized within her palm for her to control through atomic manipulation as she had been shown in training smile

If you'd read the story instead of putting your two cents in on some out of context scans then you'd have known this.

I would never have the audacity to leap into a debate with a Superman fan who clearly knows a lot about the character and try to dictate an interpretation to them without having read the relevant story arcs. Out of context scans do not give you all of the info you need to play know it all thumb down

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You tried to argue the Consciousness' reference to controlling so many atoms being difficult was in reference to Sublime when he is just a bacterial colony that infected parts of earth, A measly amount of matter and as a bacterium a simple atomic structure. You've inadvertently isolated your first and biggest problem: you think that extracting Sublime on an atomic level is such a miniscule feat for a PotWC that the statement couldn't possibly reference that telekinetic feat. That has more to do with your preconceptions than with the actual story. I thought I would have to work longer to reveal this predilection of your's. You obviously desire that PotWC have great feats. You found your opening (as contrived as it is) and campaigned for all you were worth. But it's true. Extracting Sublime on an atomic level wasn't easy, not even for a PotWC. That's why the statement makes perfect sense even separate and apart from the fact that it was obviously referencing a feat in the past tense.

"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown."

Such a comment inures more to a fulfilled expectation, i.e., hey... what you just did wasn't exactly easy... even for who you are. Such a comment is almost wholly disconnected from a warning that you're about to achieve something nobody in their wildest dreams could expect, i.e., hey... what you're about to do is going to be insane and far beyond what we've seen before... even for who you are (though why we'd expect it based upon who you are and what you've done makes no sense).

You're plainly ignoring the context surrounding the statement because you have a preconceived notion that atomically extracting Sublime's essence via telekinesis is a low feat for a PotWC and, therefore, any reference to telekinesis must be to something else. Here, it's necessary for you to separate your transparent desire from the material itself. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix Forces telekinetic prowess as shown by on panel feat rubbishes your interpretation. An interpretation fabricated merely because of the past tense used in the statement "Telekinetic control of all of those atoms is not as easy as it sounds in training" Except for the plain fact that Jean accomplished her extraction of Sublime at the cost of her friends all sacrificing themselves via horrible deaths to keep him busy while she gathered herself. This decidedly reveals that such a feat is not so far beneath her since she needed time and/or a distraction:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Sublime01.jpg Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Immediately after disinfecting the planet of Sublime, Jean telekinetically amputated an entire timeline an insane tk feat giving precedence for a high level of tk and u would argue removing bacteria from a few infected parts of Earth is difficult?Let me know when you figure out whether she telekinetically severed a timeline or telekinetically summoned a universe atomically. And I'm not arguing that atomically extracting Sublime is difficult for a PotWC. It's just not easy, not even for a PotWC. Sound familiar?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Sublime02.jpg

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what was said on-panel in reference to a past action. You can try to obfuscate the order of events and ascribe comments (incorrectly) to different actions. Bottom-line is, you've clearly got motivation to invent a huge feat for the Phoenix. And it shows. And it would be a huge feat. Which is why a comment concerning easy expectations would be decidedly divorced from such a feat. Yet, another reason (and I've got more) why your interpretation is plainly incorrect.

But by all means, keep it up. You're doing half my work for me.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You've inadvertently isolated your first and biggest problem: you think that extracting Sublime on an atomic level is such a miniscule feat for a PotWC that the statement couldn't possibly reference that telekinetic feat. That has more to do with your preconceptions than with the actual story. I thought I would have to work longer to reveal this predilection of your's. You obviously desire that PotWC have great feats. You found your opening (as contrived as it is) and campaigned for all you were worth. But it's true. Extracting Sublime on an atomic level wasn't easy, not even for a PotWC. That's why the statement makes perfect sense even separate and apart from the fact that it was obviously referencing a feat in the past tense.

"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown."

Such a comment inures more to a fulfilled expectation, i.e., hey... what you just did wasn't exactly easy... even for who you are. Such a comment is almost wholly disconnected from a warning that you're about to achieve something nobody in their wildest dreams could expect, i.e., hey... what you're about to do is going to be insane and far beyond what we've seen before... even for who you are (though why we'd expect it based upon who you are and what you've done makes no sense).

You're plainly ignoring the context surrounding the statement because you have a preconceived notion that atomically extracting Sublime's essence via telekinesis is a low feat for a PotWC and, therefore, any reference to telekinesis must be to something else. Here, it's necessary for you to separate your transparent desire from the material itself. Except for the plain fact that Jean accomplished her extraction of Sublime at the cost of her friends all sacrificing themselves to keep him busy while she gathered herself. This decidedly reveals that such a feat is not so far beneath her since she needed time and/or a distraction:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Sublime01.jpg Let me know when you figure out whether she telekinetically severed a timeline or telekinetically summoned a universe atomically. And I'm not arguing that atomically extracting Sublime is difficult for a PotWC. It's just not easy, not even for a PotWC. Sound familiar?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Sublime02.jpg

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what was said on-panel in reference to a past action. You can try to obfuscate the order of events and ascribe comments (incorrectly) to different actions. Bottom-line is, you've clearly got motivation to invent a huge feat for the Phoenix. And it shows. And it would be a huge feat. Which is why a comment concerning easy expectations would be decidedly divorced from such a feat. Yet, another reason (and I've got more) why your interpretation is plainly incorrect.

But by all means, keep it up. You're doing half my work for me.

Im plainly ignoring the context? As aforementioned the whole New x-men Phoenix story showed an ever increasing level of telekinetic prowess, it went from increased telekinetic sensitivity, to matter manipulation and transmutation, slowing down time, telekinetically amputating time to controlling the atomic structure of an entire universe within the palm of her hand.

The story prepared us for such a feat and we were given precedence for such a feat immediately before the feat by her amputation of the HCT timeline as depicted by its phasing out, her statement and its verification in the handbook.

Furthermore you are further highlighting the fact that you have not read the series and are instead basing your entire argument on the few scans that have been posted.

That very comic book scan you have shown is Jean following being disconnected from the Phoenix Force follwoing a psychic attack-

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1356/nxm15407.th.jpg

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2093/nxm15408.th.jpg

The reason she needed Beast/Sublime to be occupied was NOT because the task of extracting Sublime was difficult, but instead so she could re-establish her psychic connection with the Phoenix Force and continue her Phoenix work.

With that in mind your theory once again falls flat. You excitedly leaped in here with that out of context scan you found on the forum and have showed once again that you have not read the story which prepares you for the final scene and gives precedence for all that entails. Do better thumb down

As mentioned in my previous post

following all of Jeans telekinetic feats and her even mentioning her ability to manipulate a universes atoms

following her th amputation of the HCT future

You can not credibly argue that removing bacteria from a few infected parts of Earth are going to prove taxing when within a sentence she casually amputates a future with no visible or discernible strain.

Sublime is long taken out of the picture and carried away.

Jean is directed to the White Hot Room, we are presented with a classroom situation and then we are told manipulation of all of those atoms isnt as easy as it looks in training at which point the Force manifests the universe in Jeans hands and a focused looking Jean maintains atomic control of it within her palm. As we are told she has been shown to do in training.

Youre plainly ignoring the context given for this issue by previous issues and new x-men story arcs. The focus on a Phoenixes unparalleled TK, the talk of Jean manipulating a universes atoms, the classroom setting artistically depicted and the Forces talk of TK demonstrations being given to Jean in training therefore explaining the past tense.

With your excitedly presented scan explained and put in context for you, it no longer supports your case.

You are now left to answer how can you credibly argue that following Jeans TK feats, (especially after casually amputating a timeline) she is going to find telekinetically removing a simple atomically structured bacterium from Beast not easy erm

Once again, please do better

GalacticStorm

As for me having to decide on whether Jean amputated a timeline or atomically controlled a universe i dont need to choose out of either when the comic and the handbook verifies she did both.

As stated herself Jean through TK severed the HCT timeline from reality-

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5818/nxm15420.th.jpg

A point verified by the M'kraan crystal entry in the marvel handbooks-

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

After the increasing talk of a Phoenix possessing telekinetic godhood and the increasing levels of TK displayed by Jean leading up to this controversial scene the Consciousness manifests the universe for Jean warning her that maintaining control of all of those atoms isnt as easy as it sounds in training-

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5170/nxm15421.th.jpg

The classroom scene depicted with the Phoenix hosts watching over Jean as she controls the atomic mass of the universe the Consciousness manifested for her to perform her work on reflects the Forces statement about Phoenixes receiving training in the use of their TK which explains completely the past tense.

Jean Greys bio following this event was then updated to reveal she can manipulate and control atomic structures of a universal scale.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1918/xmenmessiahcomplexmutan.th.jpg

A point not made until following the HCT story shifty

Its really quite clear my friend smile

So your issue with regards to the tense is countered.

Your issue regarding Jean questioning what has manifested is countered.

Thats pretty much that. Any further bickering is just down to pride. Just get into the practice of actually reading the comic books youre debating on as opposed to taking a superficial glance at a few posted comic book scans and then trying to play the expert.

GalacticStorm

death

OneDumbG0

^ Nobody cares for the ninja-spam. Or the desperate reaching towards secondary sources. I've pointed out several instances where the secondary sources contradict your "colorful imagination."Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im plainly ignoring the context? As aforementioned the whole New x-men Phoenix story showed an ever increasing level of telekinetic prowess, it went from increased telekinetic sensitivity, to matter manipulation and transmutation, slowing down time, telekinetically amputating time to controlling the atomic structure of an entire universe within the palm of her hand. Stop assuming your conclusion. Basic logical fallacy. You're trying to prove that she telkinetically amputated time and telekinetically summoned a universe's atoms into her hands. And stop inadvertenty highlighting your clear motivations. This storyline was not designed to be the culmination of a number of escalating Phoenix feats to impress readers. Christ. Obviously, that's how you want to read Here Comes Tomorrow. We know that. Again, divorce your desires from the source material itself, i.e., the plain presentation of the comics.

Of course, I see you're still confused about whether she amputated an entire timeline or telekinetically summoned the atoms of an entire universe. Let me know when you figure it out. Oh, wait... but you did figure it out, right? She did both? Of course maybe now, after having years of time.. maybe now you can point out which panel of the comic Phoenix actually telekinetically amputated time. Yeah, post the panel. Years later, and I still expect the same behavior from you: feigning ignorance that this simple question has been posed and that you can never answer it. It's one thing to misplace a statement to create a feat... it's another thing to completely invent one out of thin air that curiously isn't even seen.Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Furthermore you are further highlighting the fact that you have not read the series and are instead basing your entire argument on the few scans that have been posted.

That very comic book scan you have shown is Jean following being disconnected from the Phoenix Force follwoing a psychic attack-

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1356/nxm15407.th.jpg

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2093/nxm15408.th.jpg

The reason she needed Beast/Sublime to be occupied was NOT because the task of extracting Sublime was difficult, but instead so she could re-establish her psychic connection with the Phoenix Force and continue her Phoenix work. She describes exactly why her friends were dying horribly to keep her busy: a coordinated disinfection. Trying to act like Phoenix had just come out of her funk when several pages pass by (seven, in fact) after the scans you posted and the one I posted is more of your narrow-minded tunnel vision at work. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Sublime is long taken out of the picture and carried away.

Jean is directed to the White Hot Room, we are presented with a classroom situation and then we are told manipulation of all of those atoms isnt as easy as it looks in training at which point the Force manifests the universe in Jeans hands and a focused looking Jean maintains atomic control of it within her palm. As we are told she has been shown to do in training. The very next page after she is holding Sublime in her hands and eventually hands over Sublime's essence is when the comment is made. The very next page. Stop trying to manufacture separation between the actions and the comment:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Sublime01a.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Sublime01b.jpg Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Once again, please do better Irony. I haven't even arrived at the most obvious reasons why your interpretation is exceedingly unlikely, much less incorrect.

"Id"

Here we go, 50 pages recycling the same trash. coffee1

GalacticStorm

Such a brief response my friend, a clear signal that the end is nigh.

Retire graciously because this is just tragic erm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Stop assuming your conclusion. Basic logical fallacy. You're trying to prove that she telkinetically amputated time and telekinetically summoned a universe's atoms into her hands. And stop inadvertenty highlighting your clear motivations. This storyline was not designed to be the culmination of a number of escalating Phoenix feats to impress readers. Christ. Obviously, that's how you want to read Here Comes Tomorrow. We know that. Again, divorce your desires from the source material itself, i.e., the plain presentation of the comics.

Dont presume to know or inform me of my motivations. Regardless of what you believe they might be what is stated on panel and supported in the handbooks clear as day is what im relaying to you.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Of course, I see you're still confused about whether she amputated an entire timeline or telekinetically summoned the atoms of an entire universe. Let me know when you figure it out. Oh, wait... but you did figure it out, right? She did both? Of course maybe now, after having years of time.. maybe now you can point out which panel of the comic Phoenix actually telekinetically amputated time. Yeah, post the panel. Years later, and still expect the same behavior from you: feigning ignorance that this simple question has been posed. She describes exactly why her friends were dying horribly to keep her busy: a coordinated disinfection. Trying to act like Phoenix had just come out of her funk when several pages pass by (seven, in fact) after the scans you posted and the one I posted is more of your narrow-minded tunnel vision at work. The very next page after she is holding Sublime in her hands and eventually hands over Sublime's essence is when the comment is made. The very next page. Stop trying to manufacture separation between the actions and the comment:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Sublime01a.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Sublime01b.jpg Irony. I haven't even arrived at the most obvious reasons why your interpretation is exceedingly unlikely, much less incorrect.

I take it you hadnt read my 2nd post before you constructed this waffle, that would explain why following me posting a scan of Jean saying she had to telekinetically amputate the future, then posting a handbook entry saying Phoenix severed the future from the multiverse youre still asking for me to show you where it was stated roll eyes (sarcastic)

Whether you believe Jean should have re-established her connection with the Force quicker than 7 pages or not is of no consequence to me, that is what how long it took and that is the reason why she needed her friends to distract Sublime NOT because the task of removing some bacteria from him was so taxing.

You were incorrect.

I showed you the error of your ways.

Be grateful its alllll love here baby laughing

Furthermore following Sublime being taken away there was a discussion about Jean having to go to the white hot room to heal the universe. So sublime was not being discussed immediately before the talk of manipulation of atoms, the healing of the universe within the crystal was.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5818/nxm15420.th.jpg

Please do better eek!

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Such a brief response my friend, a clear signal that the end is nigh.

Retire graciously because this is just tragic I've learned not to waste my time when the logical conclusion stares everyone in the face. Less is more sometimes. Particularly when my lengthy responses threaten to suggest that your arguments are anything but awful.

Nice deflection. I'm sure it worked out exactly how you hoped. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont presume to know or inform me of my motivations. Regardless of what you believe they might be what is stated on panel and supported in the handbooks clear as day is what im relaying to you.

I take it you hadnt read my 2nd post before you constructed this waffle, that would explain why following me posting a scan of Jean saying she had to telekinetically amputate the future, then posting a handbook entry saying Phoenix severed the future from the multiverse youre still asking for me to show you where it was stated She's holding Sublime (which she refers to as the future in the very scan you pointed to) and traveling to the White Hot Room. And somehow... you think she's telekinetically amputating a future. That's Sublime. FFS, she's just traveling to the White Hot Room while holding Sublime's essence. Please tell me you haven't just completely gone off the deep end here:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Sublime01aa.jpg Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Whether you believe Jean should have re-established her connection with the Force quicker than 7 pages or not is of no consequence to me, that is what how long it took and that is the reason why she needed her friends to distract Sublime NOT because the task of removing some bacteria from him was so taxing. Just pointed out how you like to cut and paste a plain comic up into different orders and doing away with anything that would provide clearer context and simultaneously detract from your theory-crafting. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Furthermore following Sublime being taken away there was a discussion about Jean having to go to the white hot room to heal the universe. So sublime was not being discussed immediately before the talk of manipulation of atoms, the healing of the universe within the crystal was.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5818/nxm15420.th.jpg

Please do better Yeah, actually Sublime was being discussed. Read the page. "Some kind of bacterial intelligent colony gone rogue..." Jean staring at Sublime and asking, Is... is this the future?" Jean remarking, "My friends don't deserve that." All that occurs before she even locks away Sublime. Once she locks Sublime away, what does she say? "Oh. Right. Lost my concentration in there." On what did she lose her concentration? Sublime and the deaths of her friends at the hands of Sublime. And upon Jean's comment about her loss of concentration when dealing with Sublime, what response did she elicit? "Heart got stuck. Turn. Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown."

Please divorce your desires and read the comic as it is written. I still haven't even gone through half the reasons why your interpretation is unlikely. Let's not stop. We're making fine progress here.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I've learned not to waste my time when the logical conclusion stares everyone in the face. Less is more sometimes. Particularly when my lengthy responses threaten to suggest that your arguments are anything but awful.

Nice deflection. I'm sure it worked out exactly how you hoped. She's holding Sublime (which she refers to as the future in the very scan you pointed to) and traveling to the White Hot Room. And somehow... you think she's telekinetically amputating a future. That's Sublime. FFS, she's just traveling to the White Hot Room while holding Sublime's essence. Please tell me you haven't just completely gone off the deep end here:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Sublime01aa.jpg Just pointed out how you like to cut and paste a plain comic up into different orders and doing away with anything that would provide clearer context and simultaneously detract from your theory-crafting. Yeah, actually Sublime was being discussed. Read the page. "Some kind of bacterial intelligent colony gone rogue..." Jean staring at Sublime and asking, Is... is this the future?" Jean remarking, "My friends don't deserve that." All that occurs before she even locks away Sublime. Once she locks Sublime away, what does she say? "Oh. Right. Lost my concentration in there." On what did she lose her concentration? Sublime and the deaths of her friends at the hands of Sublime. And upon Jean's comment about her loss of concentration when dealing with Sublime, what response did she elicit? "Heart got stuck. Turn. Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown."

Please divorce your desires and read the comic as it is written. I still haven't even gone through half the reasons why your interpretation is unlikely. Let's not stop. We're making fine progress here.

Now doesnt this just reek of desperation. laughing out loud

Jean Grey extracted Sublime for Beast and then we shift out of the HCT reality and she remarks how sublime the bacterial colony had gone rogue therefore she had to amputate the future because the infection was too severe.

She did not amputate the future by removing some bacteria from Beast roll eyes (sarcastic)

Holding Sublime she asks the consciousness if this is the future, i.e is this what fate has in store for her friends. The Force then states that it was Jeans fault she got too emotionally engaged and didnt do her Phoenix work at which point Jean remarks her friends dont deserve such a future.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5818/nxm15420.th.jpg

She is then told its not over she can heal the universe and usher in a new future.

By your interpretation, Jean removed Sublime which equated to her cutting off the actual future.

Then by your interpretation when Jean is told she can heal the wound and grow a new future that means she can grow a new Sublime bacterial colony on the end of the 616 timeline no expression

Get the hell outta here ------->

As the handbook verifies Jean telekinetically severed the actual HCT reality from the multiverse-

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

Which therefore supports my point that when she looks at sublime and questions is this the future she means is that what fate hold in store for her friends in the future.

My interpretation as supported by the handbook also means that when Jean is ushered to the white hot room to make a new future it means change events and trigger a more desirable turn of events as opposed to your interpretation. Go to the white hot room and grow a better Sublime bacterial colony on the end of the universe laughing out loud

This is too much. Im done and youre definitely done eek!

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Now doesnt this just reek of desperation.More unintentional irony. Keep deflecting.Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean Grey extracted Sublime for Beast and then we shift out of the HCT reality and she remarks how sublime the bacterial colony had gone rogue therefore she had to amputate the future because the infection was too severe.

She did not amputate the future by removing some bacteria from Beast That's exactly what she did. Since she is staring at Sublime and asking, "Is... is this the future?" She refers to the amputation of the future in the same sentence as she is describing Sublime. Read the scan I just posted again: http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Sublime01aa.jpg Obviously removing Sublime leads to the "amputation of the future" or "disinfecting an entire future reality." As confirmed by your precious handbooks:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1170/hct1dr3.jpg

"She then extracted Sublime's essence from the Beast's body, disinfecting the entire future reality." What led to the disinfection/amputation of that entire future? The telekinetic extraction of Sublime's atoms. Oh... you love your precious handbooks now, don't you? And I'm not above using a person's own logic/standards against them. It's what I do. Anyway, it's awful that you think Phoenix holding Sublime and traveling to the White Hot Room is actually meant to be a feat of telekinetically removing the future:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Sublime01aa.jpg

Awful. Just awful. People are allowed to read between the lines... but seriously... this is awful. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Holding Sublime she asks the consciousness if this is the future, i.e is this what fate has in store for her friends. The Force then states that it was Jeans fault she got too emotionally engaged and didnt do her Phoenix work at which point Jean remarks her friends dont deserve such a future.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5818/nxm15420.th.jpg

She is then told its not over she can heal the universe and usher in a new future.

By your interpretation, Jean removed Sublime which equated to her cutting off the actual future. Yes. She amputated that future by removing Sublime. She then had to replace that future with something else. A future where Cyclops doesn't lose hope. A future where Cyclops finds love. Why would nudging Cyclops to finding new love even require telekinetically summoning an entire universe's atoms in the first place? That's a rhetorical question since the answer is obvious. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Then by your interpretation when Jean is told she can heal the wound and grow a new future that means she can grow a new Sublime bacterial colony on the end of the 616 timeline no expression

Get the hell outta here ------->Take your inane strawmans elsewhere. You're the one trying to convince us that Jean Grey telekinetically removed a future (that doesn't even phucking make sense... telekinesis on time?) and then telekinetically summoned the atoms of a universe (when all she needed to do was give Cyclops a nudge to find love again). Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This is too much. Im done and youre definitely done eek!

Your liberal use of smilies only covers up a vulnerability in our logic. Oh, wait. I pointed out exactly why you're using smilies. Never mind, nothing was covered up. Carry on.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
More unintentional irony. Keep deflecting.That's exactly what she did. Since she is staring at Sublime and asking, "Is... is this the future?" She refers to the amputation of the future in the same sentence as she is describing Sublime. Read the scan I just posted again: http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Sublime01aa.jpg Obviously removing Sublime leads to the "amputation of the future" or "disinfecting an entire future reality." As confirmed by your precious handbooks:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1170/hct1dr3.jpg

"She then extracted Sublime's essence from the Beast's body, disinfecting the entire future reality." What led to the disinfection/amputation of that entire future? The telekinetic extraction of Sublime's atoms. Oh... you love your precious handbooks now, don't you? And I'm not above using a person's own logic/standards against them. It's what I do. Anyway, it's awful that you think Phoenix holding Sublime and traveling to the White Hot Room is actually meant to be a feat of telekinetically removing the future:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Sublime01aa.jpg

Awful. Just awful. People are allowed to read between the lines... but seriously... this is awful. Yes. She amputated that future by removing Sublime. She then had to replace that future with something else. A future where Cyclops doesn't lose hope. A future where Cyclops finds love. Why would nudging Cyclops to finding new love even require telekinetically summoning an entire universe's atoms in the first place? That's a rhetorical question since the answer is obvious. Take your inane strawmans elsewhere. You're the one trying to convince us that Jean Grey telekinetically removed a future (that doesn't even phucking make sense... telekinesis on time?) and then telekinetically summoned the atoms of a universe (when all she needed to do was give Cyclops a nudge to find love again). Your liberal use of smilies only covers up a vulnerability in our logic. Oh, wait. I pointed out exactly why you're using smilies. Never mind, nothing was covered up. Carry on.

Dear oh dear.

I bet you actually felt quite clever writing this as well?

Prepare to have your delusions shattered eek!

As is common knowledge within Marvel canon, you cannot change a present or future outcome solely by altering a past event. The outcome from simply changing the past will be a divergent reality will sprout off and that future you wanted to avert would still exist:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6594/ff543dcp0003.th.jpg

That is common knowledge so i am appalled that you do not know this.

How did the Phoenix avoid this normal outcome? By amputating the disinfected part of the timeline from the multiversal tree of realities. Leaving a stump from which she could then alter Scotts reaction, to result in a different outcome from Here Comes Tomorrow. With HCT removed, 616 could grow without hindrance, if HCT was not amputated then reality would have diverged and HCT would have remained in the multiverse.

We know thats not true because Jean states clear as day that she amputated the future.

The latest handbook entry on the matter which actually succeeds your one states quite explicitly that Phoenix amputated the actual HCT reality from the multiverse before going on to nudge Cyclops to alter his reaction and perpetuate the current 616 timeline-

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

So Jeans work is highlighted in two separate steps, she amputated the actual future, then she encouraged the growth of a new one through event alteration.

However by your theory through extracting bacteria from Beast she also removed the HCT timeline from existence.

Err how did she do that when the trigger point for the HCT timeline was 150 years in the past when Scott reacted negatively to Emma?

Sooo removing bacteria at the end of the timeline resulted in the vanishing of HCT when that doesnt address its creation point?

Absolute nonsense laughing out loud

Furthermore the handbook entry you presented doesnt disagree with my theory or support yours in any way. It says Jean disinfected that future reality by removing Sublime. Thats true. Completely true. What it doesnt state however is that by extracting sublime she automatically amputated the future. That point is an assumption or fabrication of yours which you have no justification to make. In fact disinfection and amputation are two very different surgical procedures. So if anything your scan you presented merely highlights the fact that it does NOT account for Jeans statement that she amputated the future. An omission. Omission does not equate to contradiction.

My more recent handbook entry however makes it clear that Jean "severed" HCT from the multiverse. severed a reference which correlates with Jeans reference to how she had to "amputate

So where are we at this point? confused

Your theory that by extracting bacteria from the end of the HCT timeline automatically resulted in the disappearance of the timeline is conclusively incorrect because:

It ignores marvel canon that simply altering the past creates a divergent reality

It necessitates equating the word amputate to disinfect when they are two completely different words.

By removing Sublime Jean completed her disinfection and thats what your handbook entry covers, however as Jean stated she had to go further and amputate that whole reality because the infection was so deep.

My handbook entry deals with this part verifying that the actual reality was severed from the multiverse which matches up with Jeans statement.

My theory is supported by both handbook entries and can cover all statements made in the scenes.

Your interpretation involves equating, two different words with very different meanings, ignoring the fact that simply removing bacteria before altering the past would mean 616 was now a divergent reality and HCT still exists (which it does NOT ) and it does not address my handbook entry that refers to the actual reality being severed with no reference to Sublime.

You have entertained me to no end ODG.

But once again..........................PLEASE.DO.BETTER eek!

Nihilist

Phoenix wins in a rapestomp

guy222

Originally posted by "Id"
Here we go, 50 pages recycling the same trash. coffee1

new threads up

beer

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're the one trying to convince us that Jean Grey telekinetically removed a future (that doesn't even phucking make sense... telekinesis on time?) and then telekinetically summoned the atoms of a universe (when all she needed to do was give Cyclops a nudge to find love again).

I didnt feel the need to address your previous waffle point for point however i will put a little focus on this part.

I dont need to convince anyone that Jean telekinetically amputated the future. She stated she did, the handbook stated she did and the fact that HCT disappeared as opposed to remaining whilst her event alteration perpetuated the normal timeline instead of creating a divergent reality all conclusively dumps on all you have to offer shit

As for why Jean had to bring the universe into the white hot room to perform her work you can only speculate. She just performed the unparalleled feat of amputating the future off a reality following its disinfection, then the white hot room is called the hospital and she is told she needs to treat the wounded universe there. All in keeping with the surgery theme maybe it was a more stable environment to aid with the success of the treatment. Who knows? Ask Grant Morrison, its a comic book.

Do you know the ins and outs of how a universe sprouts abstract beings? Do you know the inner workings of M'kraan crystal or Ultimate Nullifier? Hell no do you or any other comic reader. Its a comic book. You dont have to. However if you are told that something happens within a comic book by on panel statement, artistic depiction and various handbook entries then you have no choice but to accept mate.

I believe i have said enough here.

Real life beckons.

That will be all big grin

guy222

happy holidays gs

ExodusCloak

Do we really have to discuss the HCT feat to death to say the Phoenix wins in this thread? It has other feats that I believe are better then anything Onslaught displayed.

For the record, I agree with OneDumbG0 in regards to the interpretation of that HCT feat. At the time I believe that is the correct intepretation. It makes more sense. However, I have no idea what's Marvel opinion on this at the moment. There's a site where the Handbook writers hang out at...can't remember the name but Chris Claremont has a thread there. Anyway in this site you can harass the writers of the Handbooks enough to change stuff in it for them for example intelligence of characters and strength etc...IRRC this is where that telekinetic atoms universe thing comes from.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1918/xmenmessiahcomplexmutan.th.jpg

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the Phoenix Force is going to wreck a crap of load of people in AvX anyway. I still think it's greater then Onslaught. Additionally there's a very high probability that the Life Force is going to turn out to be the Phoenix Force and that is what Wanda's connection with Hope is.

guy222

i wanna harass marvel stick out tongue

if u recall the site let me know

i tweet em all the time brevoort is cool, andy schmidt still is as well

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Do we really have to discuss the HCT feat to death to say the Phoenix wins in this thread? It has other feats that I believe are better then anything Onslaught displayed.

For the record, I agree with OneDumbG0 in regards to the interpretation of that HCT feat. At the time I believe that is the correct intepretation. It makes more sense. However, I have no idea what's Marvel opinion on this at the moment. There's a site where the Handbook writers hang out at...can't remember the name but Chris Claremont has a thread there. Anyway in this site you can harass the writers of the Handbooks enough to change stuff in it for them for example intelligence of characters and strength etc...IRRC this is where that telekinetic atoms universe thing comes from.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1918/xmenmessiahcomplexmutan.th.jpg

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the Phoenix Force is going to wreck a crap of load of people in AvX anyway. I still think it's greater then Onslaught. Additionally there's a very high probability that the Life Force is going to turn out to be the Phoenix Force and that is what Wanda's connection with Hope is.

Im a member of that site, comicxfan forums even been asked to become a handbook writer, a couple years back but uni, work and personal commitments mean i just dont have the time. Its time consuming writing handbook entries. Way beyond me.

As for ODG's interpretation if you read both arguments at length you will see that ODG's cannot be right. He argues that when Jean states she amputated the future that she meant by removing sublime from reality. Doing so would have no effect on the timeline as a whole as it does not address the trigger point that created the reality. It would mean that HCT was left intact and Jeans alteration of the past merely created a divergent reality. That did not happen. Thats always what happens when an event in the past is altered as that is marvel canon.

So what was done differently in this circumstance?

As Jean stated she actually amputated the reality from the multiversal tree. After removing Sublime she actually makes the point of saying the reality was too heavily infected so she went a step further and amputated. So there is a distinction made. A disinfection is not an amputation. Two different terms. ODG's interpretation means equating them, it also means ignoring my handbook entry that states Jean actually severed HCT reality from the multiverse.

So by going that step further and removing HCT from the multiverse before altering the past Jean avoided the creation of a divergent reality and instead perpetuated the continuation of 616.

With that in mind ODG's interpretation conclusively cannot be right, it contradicts a staple of marvel canon, it doesnt compliment all handbook entries and it necessitates ignoring the english language. erm

My interpretation however addresses all statements on panel, is reflected by all handbook entries on the matter and doesn't have any gaping holes in it that cant be explained away.

Maybe i shouldve found the time to become a handbook writer and wrote the damn entry myself laughing

zopzop

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

As Jean stated she actually amputated the reality from the multiversal tree. After removing Sublime she actually makes the point of saying the reality was too heavily infected so she went a step further and amputated.

Wait, didn't one of the Phoenix Corps say, "If it was me, I'd just let it die" referring to the universe in her hands? Isn't that proof positive (plus with the handbook backing it up) that she indeed held a universe in her hands and could have let it die but choose to save it?

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by zopzop
Wait, didn't one of the Phoenix Corps say, "If it was me, I'd just let it die" referring to the universe in her hands? Isn't that proof positive (plus with the handbook backing it up) that she indeed held a universe in her hands and could have let it die but choose to save it?

Hey ZopZop

With ODG its just got to the point that hes arguing to argue. Pride has set in.

His argument for a variety of reasons just can NOT be right. Mine on the other hand doesnt contradict any official sources its backed up by them.

There are just a few points which crop up as per my interpretation such as how do you amputate a timeline and why would Jean bring the universe into the white hot room.

The 1st point is simply addressed. How does an anomaly in human genetics allow someone to manipulate the weather or warp reality? You do not need to be able explain it by real life science its a comic book, its stated it happened on panel, its stated it happened in handbooks and it makes sense that it happened by the accepted rules of marvel canon. Not being able to understand how a cosmic being did what its stated she did is not a reason to make an argument and surely not a point in favour of ODG. Its a comic book.

Furthermore as to why she had to bring the universe into the white hot room there was a lot of surgical terminology being thrown around the scene with Jean as Phoenix being likened to a multiversal surgeon, universes as the patients and the white hot room as a hospital. Where do you take patients to ensure that an operation occurs in the most stable environment and has the greatest chance of success? A hospital. Its a comic book, it is the way of the Phoenix and many cosmic beings to do things in an odd manner, but if its stated and visually depicted that the universes atoms were being controlled, if Jeans handbook is then updated to state that as a part of her power set she can now manipulate atomic structures of a universal scale then who are we to argue?

Accepting that its a comic book, with comic book physics and laws and odd ways of doing things added for drama and effect but going with it because its stated by official marvel sources is my way.

ODG would rather pick and choose what marvel sources he acknowledges in his interpretation, ignore the english language and equate two different terms in an effort to make sense of comic book cosmic beings according to his grasp of real world physics and most importantly ignore marvel staples in canon such as changing the past will result in a divergent reality.

thumb down

This has been fun though laughing out loud

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by guy222
happy holidays gs

You to Guy smile

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I didnt feel the need to address your previous waffle point for point however i will put a little focus on this part.

I dont need to convince anyone that Jean telekinetically amputated the future. She stated she did, the handbook stated she did and the fact that HCT disappeared as opposed to remaining whilst her event alteration perpetuated the normal timeline instead of creating a divergent reality all conclusively dumps on all you have to offer shit Yeah... by extracting Sublime. The handbook did, in fact, state that extracting Sublime = amputating the future also. What is your protestation based on? Trying to fit in a telekinetic feat on time... in between panels because you need to manufacture some pretense that there is an escalation of feats occurring? Jebus christ. You're really trying to convince me that Jean simply carrying off Sublime's atoms into the White Hot Room here is Jean telekinetically removing a future... Creative, to say the least. Read your precious handbooks, buddy. Removing Sublime leads to the "amputation of the future" or "disinfecting an entire future reality." As confirmed by your precious handbooks:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1170/hct1dr3.jpg

NOWHERE, is it said on-panel that Jean "telekinetically" amputated/severed the future. Only that she amputated/severed the future. NOWHERE, is it said in even a handbook that Jean "telekinetically" amputated/severed the future. Only that she amputated/severed the future. None of your phucking scans refer to that accomplishment as being a telekinetic one (seriously... how do you telekinesis time anyway?). What do we know? We know how she amputated/severed the future: By extracting Sublime and sealing away his influence, because Sublime metaphorically and literally represented the terrible future (phucking christ... she stares at Sublime and refers to Sublime as the "future" even):

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Sublime01aa.jpg Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As for why Jean had to bring the universe into the white hot room to perform her work you can only speculate. She just performed the unparalleled feat of amputating the future off a reality following its disinfection, then the white hot room is called the hospital and she is told she needs to treat the wounded universe there. All in keeping with the surgery theme maybe it was a more stable environment to aid with the success of the treatment. Who knows? Ask Grant Morrison, its a comic book. Irony. laughing out loud

C'mon... stop making it so easy... Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Do you know the ins and outs of how a universe sprouts abstract beings? Do you know the inner workings of M'kraan crystal or Ultimate Nullifier? Hell no do you or any other comic reader. Its a comic book. You dont have to. However if you are told that something happens within a comic book by on panel statement, artistic depiction and various handbook entries then you have no choice but to accept mate. I agree. You have to accept on-panel statements, artistic depictions and handbooks that all verify the same thing. So phucking accept it. Accept that all Phoenix did after extracting/locking away Sublime in the White Hot Room was symbolically watering the universe with her life's blood by nudging Scott to finding love again. That was all that was required to replace the dystopic future with something new. We all know that. It's a common fiction trope, i.e., the butterfly effect. Change one small thing (that doesn't seem so important... but is really the ultimate dramatic flourish in a story) and change the future.

You don't need to telekinetically summon a universe's atoms to do that. Kitty Pryde didn't need a universal telekinetic summoning to prevent Days of Future Past. Bishop didn't need a universal telkinetic summoning to prevent Age of Apocalypse. Phucking Marty McFly didn't amp the Delorean from 88 mph+1.21 gW --> telekinetic universe summoning levels to change the Biff future.

Why can't you accept that Here Comes Tomorrow is more about Jean's sacrifice of one of the greatest romances in comic history and less about Jean's telekinetic power as a PotWC? Let go of your obsession over feats and pay attention to the story. It was a pretty good story. And it's better without the feat-crafting. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I believe i have said enough here. Agreed.

zopzop

@OneDumbGO

Quick question, then what do you make of the Phoenix Corps member telling Jean "if it was me, I'd just let it die" referring to the universe in her hand?

OneDumbG0

^ I haven't given it much thought. But I think he was suggesting that Jean not bother replacing the Here Come Tomorrow future she prevented with a better future, i.e., let events play out in 616 as they will -- where Cyclops loses hope, Beast tries his best but fails, and a dystopic future develops in the inevitable war between humans and mutants (with or without Sublime).

Given how often the 616 universe seems to be heading towards a disastrous future anyway, e.g., Badoon taking over, Ultron taking over, Sentinels taking over, Kang taking over, etc., I'm not surprised that the notion to just leave 616 to its sh1tty fate was suggested.

@zopzop

Honest question for you... do you think Jean summoned a universe-sized Phoenix to flare up within the universe or is that just a symbolic image?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Phoenix01.jpg

zopzop

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I haven't given it much thought. But I think he was suggesting that Jean not bother replacing the Here Come Tomorrow future she prevented with a better future, i.e., let events play out in 616 as they will -- where Cyclops loses hope, Beast tries his best but fails, and a dystopic future develops in the inevitable war between humans and mutants (with or without Sublime).

Given how often the 616 universe seems to be heading towards a disastrous future anyway, e.g., Badoon taking over, Ultron taking over, Sentinels taking over, Kang taking over, etc., I'm not surprised that the notion to just leave 616 to its sh1tty fate was suggested.

@zopzop

Honest question for you... do you think Jean summoned a universe-sized Phoenix to flare up within the universe or is that just a symbolic image?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Phoenix01.jpg

If they were in the White Hot Room in the M'krann Crystal, IMHO it was a universal size Phoenix flare. The White Hot Room exists simultaneously in all universes and who knows what rules regarding reality/space/time are in effect there.

Even if I'm totally wrong on that, Galactus on panel stated that the PF can annihilate an entire universe, Death confirmed this and stated that it can also create/recreate a universe. If it can do all that, amputating an alternate reality while outside space/time doesn't sound too far fetched.

In all honesty, the most convincing thing regarding what she had in her hand was the PC member telling her to just let it die (it being the universe in her hands).

I'll have to look at the scans again (the ones regarding the PC member talking to her).

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by zopzop
If they were in the White Hot Room in the M'krann Crystal, IMHO it was a universal size Phoenix flare. The White Hot Room exists simultaneously in all universes and who knows what rules regarding reality/space/time are in effect there. That's begging the question. After all, what's to stop mere visualizations of universes from manifesting within it? Anyway, you think a universal size Phoenix flare manifested within/atop the 616 universe. Ok. When we focus in on the 616 universe and return to the scene of Jean's grave... do you see a universe-sized Phoenix flare lighting up the sky or any evidence that a universal sized Phoenix flare is emerging/manifesting throughout the 616 universe?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Phoenix02.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Phoenix03.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Phoenix04.jpg

Another honest question: That Phoenix flare said, "Live." So was a universal resounding spoken word also heard throughout the 616 universe or was that word not actually reverberating throughout the entire 616 universe? Originally posted by zopzop
Even if I'm totally wrong on that, Galactus on panel stated that the PF can annihilate an entire universe, Death confirmed this and stated that it can also create/recreate a universe. If it can do all that, amputating an alternate reality while outside space/time doesn't sound too far fetched. You are well aware that it's been stated on-panel multiple times that Galactus dying/detonating would annihilate the entire universe. Been stated multiple times that Galactus is a co-equal force of nature between Death and Eternity. Galactus has also been stated numerous times to be destined to completely devour and rebirth the universe. Galactus actually performed on-panel surgery on a comatose Eternity during Infinity War. Are you going to argue that this is definitive proof that Galactus has telekinetic control over the atoms of a universe? Let's not confuse a comic character's station for a comic character's actions. Let's not conflate a comic character's role for a comic character's capabilities. Originally posted by zopzop
In all honesty, the most convincing thing regarding what she had in her hand was the PC member telling her to just let it die (it being the universe in her hands).

I'll have to look at the scans again (the ones regarding the PC member talking to her). Right... and somehow in order to perform the simple task of nudging Scott to find love again... you have to telekinetically summon the atoms of a universe? If Booster Gold wanted to change the past via buttefly effect, does he need Skeets to telekinetically summon the atoms of the universe? Shall we nominate Booster Gold for Abstract? Let's face it. The reason there was a visualization of the 616 universe in her hands was because she had to focus on the 616 universe and 616 Scott (in an area where all universes/realities can co-exist, i.e., the White Hot Room) and nudge him to find love again and create a new future where he doesn't lose hope.

Anyway, for whatever reason... 616 universe was summoned atomically... a universe-sized Phoenix flared inside it (but never actually physically affected it or was seen) and a universe-sized Phoenix spoke (but never was heard). C'mon now. The Phoenix flare was a symbolic visualization. So was the universe. To echo your sentiment... does that sound too far fetched?

zopzop

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That's begging the question. After all, what's to stop mere visualizations of universes from manifesting within it? Anyway, you think a universal size Phoenix flare manifested within/atop the 616 universe. Ok. When we focus in on the 616 universe and return to the scene of Jean's grave... do you see a universe-sized Phoenix flare lighting up the sky or any evidence that a universal sized Phoenix flare is emerging/manifesting throughout the 616 universe?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Phoenix02.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Phoenix03.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Phoenix04.jpg

Another honest question: That Phoenix flare said, "Live." So was a universal resounding spoken word also heard throughout the 616 universe or was that word not actually reverberating throughout the entire 616 universe? You are well aware that it's been stated on-panel multiple times that Galactus dying/detonating would annihilate the entire universe. Been stated multiple times that Galactus is a co-equal force of nature between Death and Eternity. Galactus has also been stated numerous times to be destined to completely devour and rebirth the universe. Galactus actually performed on-panel surgery on a comatose Eternity during Infinity War. Are you going to argue that this is definitive proof that Galactus has telekinetic control over the atoms of a universe? Let's not confuse a comic character's station for a comic character's actions. Let's not conflate a comic character's role for a comic character's capabilities. Right... and somehow in order to perform the simple task of nudging Scott to find love again... you have to telekinetically summon the atoms of a universe? If Booster Gold wanted to change the past via buttefly effect, does he need Skeets to telekinetically summon the atoms of the universe? Shall we nominate Booster Gold for Abstract? Let's face it. The reason there was a visualization of the 616 universe in her hands was because she had to focus on the 616 universe and 616 Scott (in an area where all universes/realities co-exist, i.e., the White Hot Room) and nudge him to find love again and create a new future where he doesn't lose hope.

Anyway, for whatever reason... 616 universe was summoned atomically... a universe-sized Phoenix flared inside it (but never actually physically affected it or was seen) and a universe-sized Phoenix spoke (but never was heard). C'mon now. The Phoenix flare was a symbolic visualization. So was the universe. To echo your sentiment... does that sound too far fetched?

But doesn't it sound strange, that ALL she had to do was make Scott find love again? Why would that be "Phoenix work"? It's the job of a universal level fundamental force of creation to help an ex boyfriend find true love with a new girl?

It was stated to be an orphan universe that was wounded. All she had to do to "fix" it would be to play match maker? That's incredibly bad writing.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens in 2012 with the big Phoenix Event and she how, if at all, it ties in to HoM Wanda/Doom with the "Lifeforce" that should help put everything into perspective.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by zopzop
But doesn't it sound strange, that ALL she had to do was make Scott find love again? Why would that be "Phoenix work"? It's the job of a universal level fundamental force of creation to help an ex boyfriend find true love with a new girl? It doesn't sound strange at all. Living Tribunal has chatted with Doctor Strange. The Abstracts let Adam Warlock lead the charge against IG Thanos. Why is it strange that changing the future of 616 can be compelled by a simple choice? That's how universal divergences manifest. Jean needed to diverge 616 from its dystopic future. Are you suggesting that such a universal divergence could never manifest without telekinetically summoning it to the White Hot Room? And let me ask you this... who else but Jean Grey could compel Scott to find love again? Originally posted by zopzop
It was stated to be an orphan universe that was wounded. All she had to do to "fix" it would be to play match maker? That's incredibly bad writing. "Bad" because the solution could be so simple from a feat standpoint? We shouldn't fall into the trap of being obsessed with feats over story. I certainly do not. Because definitively self-sacrificing one of the greatest romances in comicdom seems to be monumental from a story standpoint. It continues to stand as one of the greatest, most tragic things that has ever happened to Cyclops and Jean Grey. You don't see that? It's like we're missing the forest for the trees here. Originally posted by zopzop
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens in 2012 with the big Phoenix Event and she how, if at all, it ties in to HoM Wanda/Doom with the "Lifeforce" that should help put everything into perspective. Ironically enough, GalacticStorm has taken a definitive stance that HOM Wanda did nothing truly special/powerful at all because her feats were only magnified by virtue of the Chaos Wave manifesting in Otherworld. So HOM Wanda wasn't as powerful as everybody makes her out to be according to him. GalacticStorm is the last person in the world who would want HOM Wanda and the Phoenix Force to be one and the same. Trust me.

zopzop

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It doesn't sound strange at all. Living Tribunal has chatted with Doctor Strange. The Abstracts let Adam Warlock lead the charge against IG Thanos. Why is it strange that changing the future of 616 can be compelled by a simple choice? That's how universal divergences manifest. Jean needed to diverge 616 from its dystopic future. Are you suggesting that such a universal divergence could never manifest without telekinetically summoning it to the White Hot Room? Let me ask you this... who else but Jean Grey could compel Scott to find love again? "Bad" because the solution could be so simple from a feat standpoint? We shouldn't fall into the trap of being obsessed with feats over story. I certainly do not. Because definitively self-sacrificing one of the greatest romances in comicdom seems to be monumental from a story standpoint.

I get what you're saying, but it's just that I find it odd. If that's all that was needed, ANYONE even a lowly human being could have talked Scott into moving on with his life. If that's what the PF has been reduced too, it barely qualifies for the job of guidance counselor (at least they need training) big grin

LOL. I was actually arguing this too smile

But I guess all questions will be answered soon (hopefully).

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by zopzop
I get what you're saying, but it's just that I find it odd. If that's all that was needed, ANYONE even a lowly human being could have talked Scott into moving on with his life. If that's what the PF has been reduced too, it barely qualifies for the job of guidance counselor (at least they need training) big grin

Obviously, you didn't see my edit before you responded. So let me highlight it since I posted too quickly: Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It doesn't sound strange at all. Living Tribunal has chatted with Doctor Strange. The Abstracts let Adam Warlock lead the charge against IG Thanos. Why is it strange that changing the future of 616 can be compelled by a simple choice? That's how universal divergences manifest. Jean needed to diverge 616 from its dystopic future. Are you suggesting that such a universal divergence could never manifest without telekinetically summoning it to the White Hot Room? And let me ask you this... who else but Jean Grey could compel Scott to find love again? Nobody else could. And nobody could really defeat Sublime either. But again, just because the story was resolved through the choice of dramatic self-sacrifice (rather than unheralded zomg jizz-worthy tk wow-power featzorz!!!!) doesn't make it bad writing. That's often the point of time travel stories... change one small thing and change the future. Save the cheerleader, save the world and all that crap. I mean... that's literally how Here Comes Tomorrow ended. Originally posted by zopzop
LOL. I was actually arguing this too smile

But I guess all questions will be answered soon (hopefully). Doubt they're going to revisit Here Comes Tomorrow. Avengers: The Children's Crusade seems to be answering all the questions about HOM Wanda.

zopzop

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Obviously, you didn't see my edit before you responded: So let me highlight it since I posted too quickly:

It could have been a close friend or someone Scott trusted deeply.

Oh I don't think they'll mention anything about Here Comes Tomorrow, I was just speculating that if the "Lifeforce" HoM Wanda and Doom tapped into really does turn out to be the PF (Doom's shiney new white outfit looks awfully similar to someone we all know big grin

), the PotWC holding a universe in her hands in the WHR won't sound too far fetched. Or they can have no relation (Lifeforce and the PF) and I was totally wrong. embarrasment

Like this :
http://x.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/9/40/4ede7115412ff.jpg

I wonder...........

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by zopzop
It could have been a close friend or someone Scott trusted deeply.Well obviously they all failed and Scott lost all hope leading directly into the dystopic future. You're suggesting that nobody tried (Emma definitely did), but I think it's very fair to assume that they did try and nobody but Jean could change Scott's heart. Originally posted by zopzop
Oh I don't think they'll mention anything about Here Comes Tomorrow, I was just speculating that if the "Lifeforce" HoM Wanda and Doom tapped into really does turn out to be the PF (Doom's shiney new white outfit looks awfully similar to someone we all know big grin

), the PotWC holding a universe in her hands in the WHR won't sound too far fetched. Or they can have no relation (Lifeforce and the PF) and I was totally wrong. embarrasment

Like this :
http://x.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/9/40/4ede7115412ff.jpg

I wonder........... It would be less far-fetched but I don't think it would change anything. In fact, I think it would be yet another example of why GalacticStorm's theory makes less sense. HOM Wanda didn't need to telekinetically sever time or telekinetically summon a universe's atoms to do what she did. HOM Wanda just did it. No White Hot Room, no telekinesis, none of this convoluted crap I keep arguing against.

Doom > PotWC. GalacticStorm would have a sh1tfit.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yeah... by extracting Sublime. The handbook did, in fact, state that extracting Sublime = amputating the future also.

Not in the slightest. This is one major flaw with your interpretation, equating the words disinfect and amputate. They are two completely different surgical procedures not even remotely similar but both however are steps within an operation. Lets take a case of gangrene in a limb. The 1st solution would be to disinfect the area of the infection. If that failed to resolve the issue and there was the potential for further infection and possible harm to the main body the subsequent solution and the last resort would be to amputate the infected limb. The handbook did NOT state that extracting Sublime = amputating the future. The handbook entry you presented stated that Jean removed Sublime and that disinfected the future reality which is true it did. However your handbook entry makes no mention whatsoever of Jeans statement that she amputated the future, it doesnt account for that. Once again omission does not equate to contradiction. The more important step for the story was Jeans alteration of the past.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're really trying to convince me that Jean simply carrying off Sublime's atoms into the White Hot Room here is Jean telekinetically removing a future... Creative, to say the least. Read your precious handbooks, buddy.

I am doing no such thing laughing out loud

Amputation is not a disinfection. Even your handbook scan refers to how Sublime was extracted from Beasts body and that disinfected the future. Extraction and disinfection are again NOT amputation.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What do we know? We know how she amputated/severed the future: By extracting Sublime and sealing away his influence, because Sublime metaphorically and literally represented the terrible future (phucking christ... she stares at Sublime and refers to Sublime as the "future" even):

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Sublime01aa.jpg

We dont know she amputated future by extracting Sublime. Once again youve come to your conclusion and youre coming into this debate and looking at this evidence and twisting it to fit in with your made up mind.

Youre contradiction yourself, we know she AMPUTATED the future by EXTRACTING Sublime do we?

Two very different terms.

I agree that Sublime represented the twisted fate that was in store for the X-men if Jean did not fix her mistake and perform the Phoenix work she should have when she first manifested the Force again in New X-men. In fact as Jean questions is Sublime the future as in what fate holds in store for the X-men the Consciousness rejects this notion and says "this is now" as in no its not necessarily the future Sublime is just the current problem they face. Very fixable. So clinging on Jeans question NOT verification that Sublime is the future no longer serves your argument.

Furthermore something you appear to have overlooked is that my handbook entry doesnt merely state Jean amputated the future (which would allow you room to interpret that Sublime was being referred to by the future reference) it specifically states that Jean severed reality 15104 from the rest of the multiverse thereby officially confirming that point within my interpretation:

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

Just to clarify according to Marvel Jean severed reality 15104 from the multiverse as per my interpretation. What she did not do was sever a metaphorical future from the reality by extracting bacteria from Beast. That was the disinfection part of the operation, that your handbook entry refers to. smile

So Jean disinfected 15104 by extracting Sublime from Beast as per your handbook entry, Jean then states the infection was so bad she had to amputate the future, a point omitted by your handbook entry however mine clarifies that this was not a metaphorical act but Jean actually removed this actual future reality from the multiverse and that was BEFORE she changed events to perpetuate the timeline from the stump she had made.

I love how my interpretation is reflected by your official evidence and my own and yet your interpretation is rejected by my evidence. Quite telling smile

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0 C'mon... stop making it so easy... I agree. You have to accept on-panel statements, artistic depictions and handbooks that all verify the same thing. So phucking accept it. Accept that all Phoenix did after extracting/locking away Sublime in the White Hot Room was symbolically watering the universe with her life's blood by nudging Scott to finding love again. That was all that was required to replace the dystopic future with something new. We all know that. It's a common fiction trope, i.e., the butterfly effect. Change one small thing (that doesn't seem so important... but is really the ultimate dramatic flourish in a story) and change the future.

Easy if youre deluded and youve fooled yourself into believing you actually know what youre talking about laughing out loud

You accept that after disinfecting HCT by the extraction of Sublime, reality was too badly infected necessitating the amputation of reality 15104 from the main multiversal body. In keeping with the medical theme the now wounded (following the amputation) universe then had to be taken to the white hot room which Consciousness called the "hospital" to replace the dystopic future through the continuation of 616 thereby closing the wound. That is why the universe was brought into the white hot room to be treated by the multiversal doctors that are the Phoenix Corps. The Consciousness manifests the universe and using the skills Jean picked up in her training she maintains atomic control of the 616 reality before altering the past to fix her mess.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You don't need to telekinetically summon a universe's atoms to do that. Kitty Pryde didn't need a universal telekinetic summoning to prevent Days of Future Past. Bishop didn't need a universal telkinetic summoning to prevent Age of Apocalypse. Phucking Marty McFly didn't amp the Delorean from 88 mph+1.21 gW --> telekinetic universe summoning levels to change the Biff future.

You dont need to telekinetically summon a universe to merely alter a past event but again youre seeing everything through the smog that is your interpretation. Not a single one of those cases were preceded by a cosmic surgeon hacking away at the future prior to the event alteration. And hack away at the ACTUAL future is exactly what the handbook confirms Jean did.

Also in all of the cases you referred to without thinking properly when the past events were altered by the characters, that act had NO EFFECT ON THOSE ALTERNATE REALITIES WHATSOVER. All of those divergent realities remained in existence alongside 616.

WHY?

Because as i quite helpfully informed you of previously:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6594/ff543dcp0003.th.jpg

Changing the past under NORMAL circumstances does not alter the future.

What made this case different and why does HCT no longer exist?
Because Jean as stated specifically in the handbook amputated the obstructing future timeline PRIOR to altering the past.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Why can't you accept that Here Comes Tomorrow is more about Jean's sacrifice of one of the greatest romances in comic history and less about Jean's telekinetic power as a PotWC? Let go of your obsession over feats and pay attention to the story. It was a pretty good story. And it's better without the feat-crafting. Agreed.

Your argument is in tatters.

Beg to differ?

Come up with a new interpretation that:

doesnt ignore the english language.

that explains the handbook entry specifically stating Jean severed the ACTUAL reality as opposed to the metaphorical rubbish u tried to throw at me

explains why the ACTUAL HCT reality is no longer a part of the multiverse, something that hasnt happened with divergent realities in previous past alteration stories.

Hmmmmmmmm shifty

GalacticStorm

and i bet you thought it was all over and shit

Once again. PLEASE.DO.BETTER! laughing

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
However your handbook entry makes no mention whatsoever of Jeans statement that she amputated the future, it doesnt account for that.No sh1t, sherlock. That's a god damn clue you should be paying attention to. Such a monumental feat of "telekinetically removing a future" and it isn't even god damn mentioned. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I am doing no such thing laughing out loud

That is not what i have stated in any part of this thread. Jean did not carry Sublime into the White Hot Room. Sublime was carried off by an unknown black claw like appendage before Jean walked into the WHR as previously discussed.

What im arguing here is that Jean disinfected the future reality by extracting sublime, thats what your handbook actually states, what it does not state is that Jean amputated reality by extracting Sublime. Once again two different terms you are trying to equate for the purposes of your interpretation. Furthermore Jean actually states herself after extracting Sublime that she had to amputate the future because the infection was so bad. Thats a different step. You ignore that on-panel, when Jean telekinetically removed Sublime, she referred to it as surgery, disinfection, amputation. You're trying to argue that amputation never applied to it. But we both know that disinfection isn't surgery either. So clearly, your whole red herring argument about what words precisely mean (a nice way of saying your peddling in sh1tty semantics) is already shot to sh1t. It's all the same purple prose. You even ignore that on-panel, when Jean telekinetically removed Sublime, she stares at Sublime's essence and refers to it as the future. It's awful that you're trying to distinguish words when you're trying to invent a new feat out of nowhere. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Granted. Its not stated that Jeans amputation of HCT is a telekinetic one. Nuff said. No wait... let's phucking repeat it so that it's drilled into your head: Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Granted. Its not stated that Jeans amputation of HCT is a telekinetic one. Got it yet? No? How about now: Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Granted. Its not stated that Jeans amputation of HCT is a telekinetic one. Keep staring at the screen. Staring at the comic obviously did you no good. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But given that the whole series promoted the power of the Phoenix as "telekinetic godhood" Here Comes Tomorrow is not about your unnatural fetish for telekinetic feats. It's about sacrifice and drama. We've been over this. Get over the fact that the storyline wasn't meant to wow fanboys who like tk feats. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I agree that Sublime represented the twisted fate that was in store for the X-men if Jean did not fix her mistake and perform the Phoenix work she should have when she first manifested the Force again in New X-men. In fact as Jean questions is Sublime the future as in what fate holds in store for the X-men the Consciousness rejects this notion and says "this is now" as in no its not necessarily the future Sublime is just the current problem they face. Very fixable. So clinging on Jeans question NOT verification that Sublime is the future no longer serves your argument. "OMG, but when Jean says "future" she refers to "Sublime"? But Sublime isn't technically a future! -- Sublime is a bacteria?!" ............. you see why your sh1tty semantics means absolute crap when Grant Morrison is using purple prose? You should. Because you literally recognize it in one piece of dialogue by your own admission. Stop pretending that we're not allowed to recognize it again for another piece of dialogue that immediately precedes it.

This is the sh1ttiest argument you've made so far. At this point you're arguing about what's stated in plain black and white in a handbook (your precious handbooks) and trying to insert your own imaginary feats into them since they don't show up on-panel.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by zopzop
@OneDumbGO

Quick question, then what do you make of the Phoenix Corps member telling Jean "if it was me, I'd just let it die" referring to the universe in her hand?

After the amputation of HCT from the main timeline (as confirmed by the m'kraan crystal entry which specifically states the ACTUAL reality was removed by Jean as opposed to a metaphorical universe in the shape of a lump of bacteria roll eyes (sarcastic)

) 616 was left with an open wound that needed to be healed via the growth of a new future to replace the one Jean had cut away.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3201/nxm15422.th.jpg

So Quentin was basically saying he wouldnt bother creating a new future for 616 and instead would leave reality to die which hints at how inconsequential any single reality is to a Phoenix. However Jean had emotional ties to 616 so she ignored Quentin and healed reality smile

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
After the amputation of HCT from the main timeline (as confirmed by the m'kraan crystal entry which specifically states the ACTUAL reality was removed by Jean as opposed to a metaphorical universe in the shape of a lump of bacteria roll eyes (sarcastic)

) 616 was left with an open wound that needed to be healed via the growth of a new future to replace the one Jean had cut away.You already admitted that Jean is staring at Sublime and refers to it as the "future." She's not being literal, she's being descriptive and general and it's purple prose -- as you already admit. So was the phrase "amputate the future." Here, for some dumb reason, you want it to be literal and even though telekinesis is nowhere mentioned at all, you want telekinesis to be used... on the future. On time. Telekinesis isn't used on time. For phuck's sake. Stop ignoring the obvious. If you had said she had chronal powers, it'd be more believable... but no... it's gotta be, of all things... telekinesis. On time. Christ on a biscuit. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So Quentin was basically saying he wouldnt bother creating a new future for 616 and instead would leave reality to die which hints at how inconsequential any single reality is to a Phoenix. However Jean had emotional ties to 616 so she ignored Quentin and healed reality smile

By giving it a different future, rather than one that would again succumb to disaster because Cyclops loses hope (with or without Sublime). How? By nudging Cyclops to love again. Sorry that the simplest explanation that's restated ad nauseam isn't good enough for you because it doesn't artificially invent a random telekinetic feat (two of them, even) out of its a$$.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No sh1t, sherlock. That's a god damn clue you should be paying attention to. Such a monumental feat of "telekinetically removing a future" and it isn't even god damn mentioned. You ignore that on-panel, when Jean telekinetically removed Sublime, she referred to it as surgery, disinfection, amputation. You're trying to argue that amputation never applied to it. But we both know that disinfection isn't surgery either. So clearly, your whole red herring argument about what words precisely mean (a nice way of saying your peddling in sh1tty semantics) is already shot to sh1t. It's all the same purple prose. You even ignore that on-panel, when Jean telekinetically removed Sublime, she stares at Sublime's essence and refers to it as the future. It's awful that you're trying to distinguish words when you're trying to invent a new feat out of nowhere. Nuff said. No wait... let's phucking repeat it so that it's drilled into your head: Got it yet? No? How about now: Here Comes Tomorrow is not about your unnatural fetish for telekinetic feats. It's about sacrifice. OMG, but when Jean says "future" she refers to "Sublime"? But Sublime isn't technically a future! -- Sublime is a bacteria?! ............. you see why your sh1tty semantics means absolute crap when Grant Morrison is using purple prose? You should. Because you literally recognize it in one piece of dialogue by your own admission. Stop pretending that we're not allowed to for another piece of dialogue that immediately precedes it.

This is the sh1ttiest argument you've made so far.

So basically your interpretation can NOT account for the discrepancies i highlighted so you'd rather take it to the argument maker? BRING IT boxing laughing out loud

The great thing about Morrison's work is that it has so many layers that even years later you can still uncover things you didnt notice before.

Im not arrogant enough to not be able to go back and amend my argument for the sake of finding the truth behind these comic scenes we debate. Learn from me kid big grin

As it stands Sublime was questioned to be the future, the Force rejects this and says he is the current issue, not an unavoidable future.

Jean said she amputated the future, the handbook states she amputated the ACTUAL future and not a metaphorical one which your argument hinges on. Boohoo crybaby

Past alteration does NOT affect the future AT ALL. It merely creates a divergent reality.

It did not do that in this case. Why? Cos Jean went and amputated the future didnt she eek!

This was extremely enjoyable.

Bravo ODG. Bravo laughing

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You already admitted that Jean is staring at Sublime and refers to it as the "future." She's not being literal, she's being descriptive and general and it's purple prose -- as you already admit. So was the phrase "amputate the future." Here, for some dumb reason, you want it to be literal and even though telekinesis is nowhere mentioned at all, you want telekinesis to be used... on the future. On time. Telekinesis isn't used on time. For phuck's sake. Stop ignorng the obvious. If you had said she had chronal powers, it'd be more believable... but no... it's gotta be, of all things... telekinesis. Christ on a biscuit. By giving it a different future, rather than one that would again succumb to disaster because Cyclops loses hope (with or without Sublime). How? By nudging Cyclops to love again. Sorry that the simplest explanation that's restated ad nauseam isn't good enough for you because it doesn't artificially invent a random telekinetic feat (two of them, even) out of its a$$.

All of this waffle and yet all it comes down to is that Jean states she amputated the future, the handbook states she amputated the ACTUAL future. Jeans past alteration never left HCT intact in the multiverse like all marvel past alterations leave futures unaffected, Jeans actions actually perpetuated 616. WHY? shifty

Because she amputated the future. A different circumstance to all the previous past alteration instances you excitedly threw at me before like you actually had something.

Commiserations sad

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So basically your interpretation can NOT account for the discrepancies i highlighted so you'd rather take it to the argument maker? BRING IT box laughing out loud

You highlighted nothing. You highlighted, inadvertently, that Jean isn't literal when sh refers to Sublime as "the future." Somehow, you can't stomach the simple notion that Jean wasn't being literal whn she said she "amputated the future." Christ on a stick. Nice double standard that I completely maneuvered you into. You didn't think I wanted you to get into this whole "oh, disinfection is slightly different from surgery or amputation, when taken in the literal sense, waah waah." Really? You don't remember when I completely shredded this argument years back? Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The great thing about Morrison's work is that it has so many layers that even years later you can still uncover things you didnt notice before. We went over this crap years ago. Stop acting like this is a new argument. I've heard everything you've regurgitated including this "we must take certain statements literally but not others" schpeal. Have a gander and rediscover your same inane arguments being shot down the same way: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=426282&pagenumber=64 Originally posted by GalacticStorm
To summarize amputation and disinfection are not interchangeable terms in the slightest. Surgery is an invasive procedure that usually involves the removal or the cutting of a patient’s tissue. Disinfection is a process to cleanse an area from infection by removing bacteria from an infection site. Methods to achieve this can involve temperature variation, irradiation, chemicals, antiseptics/antibiotics etc. It is not an invasive procedure, it is not surgery. It can however play a part of the treatment process. Surgeons clean the infection site prior to surgery. However one does not equate to the other. Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Oh jebus. Of course in the colloquial sense of the terms they are not interchangeable. But when you are dealing with the enigmatic and colorful speech that Jean and the Phoenix Force use when talking to each other, speech that could rightly be characterized as a conversation between two sides of a single consciousness, th///at make////s excess/////ive use of dash////es, then yes they are interchangeable. Especially when you have this particular panel:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Phoenix05.jpg

Simply from the response we get to Jean's wonderfully enigmatic and lofty prose, "... I had to amputate the future," we get the Phoenix Force's response, "Phoenix disinfection complete." There you go. It's that damn easy and that damn unequivocable. Christ. Get new material. And don't pretend like you have any new material. It's insulting.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You highlighted nothing. You highlighted, inadvertently, that Jean isn't literal when sh refers to Sublime as "the future." Somehow, you can't stomach the simple notion that Jean wasn't being literal whn she said she "amputated the future." Christ on a stick. Nice double standard that I completely maneuvered you into. You didn't think I wanted you to get into this whole "oh, disinfection is slightly different from surgery or amputation, when taken in the literal sense, waah waah." Really? You don't remember when I completely shredded this argument years back? We went over this crap years ago. Stop acting like this is a new argument. I've heard everything you've regurgitated including this "we must take certain statements literally but not others" schpeal. Have a gander and rediscover your same inane arguments being shot down the same way: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=426282&pagenumber=64 Christ. Get new material. And don't pretend like you have any new material. It's insulting.

So how is this addressing the discrepancies?

Highlighting the fact that ive just noticed the Force rejects Jeans notion that Sublime is the future is a helpful discovery in getting to the truth. It destroys your interpretation, especially when coupled with the fact that the handbook tells us to take Jeans statement that she amputated the future as literal.

Dont be mad ODG. Congratulate me. cheers

I think its time for bed. Whilst i sleep try working on those discrepancies or at least disappear. Night night wink

zopzop

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Also in all of the cases you referred to without thinking properly when the past events were altered by the characters, that act had NO EFFECT ON THOSE ALTERNATE REALITIES WHATSOVER. All of those divergent realities remained in existence alongside 616.

WHY?

Because as i quite helpfully informed you of previously:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6594/ff543dcp0003.th.jpg

Changing the past under NORMAL circumstances does not alter the future.

What made this case different and why does HCT no longer exist?
Because Jean as stated specifically in the handbook amputated the obstructing future timeline PRIOR to altering the past.

@OnedumbG0 and GS

I think GS is on to something when he said changing the past under normal circumstances does not change the future. In an issue of Quasar some being that Quasar couldn't stop was tricked into going back into time to achieve his goals. Another hero stated that this was madness since once there, he could basically conquer all reality. Quasar said that Uatu stated it's not that easy. Merely going back in time or trying to alter the future only produces an alternate timeline and does NOT affect mainstream reality.

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/2231/quasar5223.th.jpg

OneDumbG0

^ In 616, at the beginning of Here Comes Tomorrow, did Cyclops reject Emma's advances? Yes. When Jean nudged him at the climax, did Cyclops accept Emma's advances? Yes. Was 616 changed? Yes. What you pointed out is, indeed, a comic book trope. But it's ignored just as often as it is relied upon. It's irrelevant to this discussion anyway because not even GalacticStorm is trying to argue that Jean didn't change what would have been the course of 616. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So how is this addressing the discrepancies?

Highlighting the fact that ive just noticed the Force rejects Jeans notion that Sublime is the future is a helpful discovery in getting to the truth. It destroys your interpretation, especially when coupled with the fact that the handbook tells us to take Jeans statement that she amputated the future as literal.

Dont be mad ODG. Congratulate me. cheers

I think its time for bed. Whilst i sleep try working on those discrepancies or at least disappear. Night night wink

OH, what's wrong now?

You don't like it when Jean and the Phoenix consciousness literally equate "amputation" and "disinfection" in their conversation? You think I forgot this little point? You think I wasn't just permitting you to throw yourself further onto your own sword? Yea, I'm a bastard for it but you took the bait like a champ trout... so CONGRATULATIONS:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Phoenix05.jpg

Jean literally talks about Sublime and makes her statement, "Some kind of intelligent bacterial colony gone rogue... I... had to amputate the whole future."

And in direct response... the Phoenix consciousness literally states, "Phoen/////ix disinf///ection suc///cessf///ul." Yeah. Your whole "oh, when they say amputate... that's nothing to do with disinfect" is literally debunked right when the statements are made. Good job pretending that little black text bubble somehow doesn't exist. Christ in a trashcan.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
OH, what's wrong now?

You don't like it when Jean and the Phoenix consciousness literally equate "amputation" and "disinfection" in their conversation? You think I forgot this little point? You think I wasn't just permitting you to throw yourself further onto your own sword? Yea, I'm a bastard for it but you took the bait like a champ trout... so CONGRATULATIONS:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Phoenix05.jpg

Jean literally talks about Sublime and makes her statement, "Some kind of intelligent bacterial colony gone rogue... I... had to amputate the whole future."

And in direct response... the Phoenix consciousness literally states, "Phoen/////ix disinf///ection suc///cessf///ul." Yeah. Your whole "oh, when they say amputate... that's nothing to do with disinfect" is literally debunked right when the statements are made. Good job pretending that little black text bubble somehow doesn't exist. Christ in a trashcan.

Its not equated. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Ooooo the desperation.

Jean removes Sublime from reality which is the disinfection, however as Jean states the infection was so bad that she had to resort to amputation.

In the Phoenixes eyes the mission to remove the bacteria from reality was a success.

Definition of disinfect- to free from infection.

Hence the:

"Phoenix disinfection successful"

Well done Jean clap

GalacticStorm

Do you wanna try tackling the actual discrepancies now mate or has pride got a stronghold and just wont let ya quit? eek!

OneDumbG0

^ Nice deflection. I'm sure that (and this entire thread) worked out exactly how you wanted it to. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its not equated. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Ooooo the desperation.

Jean removes Sublime from reality which is the disinfection, however as Jean states the infection was so bad that she had to resort to amputation.

In the Phoenixes eyes the mission to remove the bacteria from reality was a success. You can't possibly be so dense as to think anybody would be fooled by your waffling. Jean literally holds Sublime (which she undeniably refers to as the "future" wink

, Jean states she had to "amputate" the "future," and the Phoenix consciousness states that her "disinfection" was successful. Go away.

At this point, you're trolling. "Waaaah... Jean was being literal about amputating the future... but she wasn't being literal when she referred to Sublime as the future... waaah." Not only do we have on-panel confirmation that the "disinfection" and the "amputation" were the same thing, as confirmed in the handbook but your argument that they somehow aren't hinges on a completely hypocritical double-standard. It's insufferable. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I think its time for bed. Whilst i sleep try working on those discrepancies or at least disappear. Night night wink

From your mouth to God's ear. Projection, much? Yeah, say g'night.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You can't possibly be so dense as to think anybody would be fooled by your waffling. Jean literally holds Sublime (which she undeniably refers to as the "future" wink

, Jean states she had to "amputate" the "future," and the Phoenix consciousness states that her "disinfection" was successful. Go away.

At this point, you're trolling. "Waaaah... Jean was being literal about amputating the future... but she wasn't being literal when she referred to Sublime as the future... waaah." Not only do we have on-panel confirmation that the "disinfection" and the "amputation" were the same thing, as confirmed in the handbook but your argument that they somehow aren't hinges on a completely hypocritical double-standard. It's insufferable.

Jean was being literal about amputating the future and we know so because reality 15104 was actually separated from the multiverse and the past alteration perpetuated 616 and didnt just leave HCT intact? WHY? eek!

Cos there was no future reality to leave intact because Jean had disposed of it. D'OH! bangin

We know when Jean held Sublime and QUESTIONS is this the future that she was referring to the fate for her friends because of the following conversation where the Force rejects her notion and says this is the now, the present situation and goes on to say Jean caused this problem by becoming too emotionally attached with Jean saying her friends dont deserve this.

It really is over ODG. Find closure. Have a beerbeer

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by zopzop

@OnedumbG0 and GS

I think GS is on to something when he said changing the past under normal circumstances does not change the future. In an issue of Quasar some being that Quasar couldn't stop was tricked into going back into time to achieve his goals. Another hero stated that this was madness since once there, he could basically conquer all reality. Quasar said that Uatu stated it's not that easy. Merely going back in time or trying to alter the future only produces an alternate timeline and does NOT affect mainstream reality.

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/2231/quasar5223.th.jpg

Just like when Katherine Pryde from days of future past travelled back in time and possessed 616 Kittys body to change her future she went bk to her timeline to find nothing had changed.

And how AOA is still around despite Bishops past alteration. thumb up

What happened to Here Comes Tomorrow? shifty

OneDumbG0

^ Jean's not trying to change the Here Comes Tomorrow reality. She was trying to prevent the 616 reality from becoming it. She succeeded. Stop chasing your own tail on this non-point. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean was being literal about amputating the future and we know so because reality 15104 was actually separated from the multiverse and the past alteration perpetuated 616 and didnt just leave HCT intact? WHY? eek!

That happens when you change the future. It becomes an alternate reality and separates and branches off to become an alternate reality. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Cos there was no future reality to leave intact because Jean had disposed of it. D'OH! bangin

We know when Jean held Sublime and QUESTIONS is this the future that she was referring to the fate for her friends because of the following conversation where the Force rejects her notion and says this is the now, the present situation and goes on to say Jean caused this problem by becoming too emotionally attached with Jean saying her friends dont deserve this. Of course, you're re-repeating an unextraordinary non-fact: when Jean says "future," she's referring to Sublime. She ain't bein literal. Of course, when Jeans says she "amputates the future" she can't possibly mean removing Sublime? You have to take that statement literally?

Read English consistently. Do it wrong if you have to, bvut at least don't be such a horrible hypocrite about it, Jean and the Phoenix consciousness' conversation literally equate "amputate the future" with "Phoenix disinfection." No two ways about it:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Phoenix05.jpg

Your precious handbook also literally states, that extracting Sublime led to the disinfection/amputation of the future:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1170/hct1dr3.jpg

What doesn't the comic or the handbook state? You already admitted it: Originally posted by GalacticStorm
However your handbook entry makes no mention whatsoever of Jeans statement that she amputated the future, it doesnt account for that.

---

Granted. Its not stated that Jeans amputation of HCT is a telekinetic one. o inkling of telekinesis on futures (again, makes no damn sense, telekinesis works on matter not time)... or telekinetically summoning a universe (again, she only nudged Cyclops, why would she need to summon the universe to nudge Cyclops?). Enough with your projections, deflections and hypocrisies. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It really is over ODG. Find closure. Have a beerbeer Yeah, seriously. Get a new act. Good job goin to sleep. Oh wait... you can't go to sleep because of this thread. How honestly pathetic.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Jean's not trying to change the Here Comes Tomorrow reality. She was trying to prevent the 616 reality from becoming it. She succeded. Stop chasing your own tail. That happens when you change the future. It becomes an alternate reality and separates and branches off to become an alternate reality. Of course, you're re-repeating an unextraordinary non-fact: when Jean says "future," she's referring to Sublime. She ain't bein literal. Of course, when Jeans says she "amputates the future" she can't possibly mean removing Sublime? You have to take that statement literally?

Read English consistently. Do it wrong if you have to, bvut at least don't be such a horrible hypocrite about it, Jean and the Phoenix consciousness' conversation literally equate "amputate the future" with "Phoenix disinfection." No two ways about it:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Phoenix05.jpg

Your precious handbook also literally states, that extracting Sublime led to the disinfection/amputation of the future:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1170/hct1dr3.jpg

What doesn't the comic or the handbook state? You already admitted it: Enough with your projections, deflections and hypocrisies. Yeah, seriously. Get a new act. Good job goin to sleep. Oh wait... you can't go to sleep because of this thread. How honestly pathetic.

1) If Jean never literally removed HCT from the multiverse then following her past alteration HCT would still exist in the multiverse. It does not. The handbook confirms that Phoenix severed the ACTUAL reality from the multiverse. Its stated explicitly do not try and present yourself as credible if you are going to blatantly ignore that and try and persuade people differently, the statement in the handbook is not open to interpretation. Dont try and play like the past alteration made the HCT diverge into an alternate reality so your point is true. Its actually stated it was severed from the multiverse, not that it diverged from the universe, it is no longer a part of the multiverse. Valiant effort clap

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

2) The statement from your handbook states that Jean disinfected the future reality. It then states she altered the past. That does not help your argument nor impede mine. Thats all true.

3) To disinfect is to free from infection. Phoenix first attempted to do so by extracting Sublime from Beasts body, following that she states that the infection was so bad she had to amputate the future. Her actions freed reality from infection. "Phoenix disinfection successful" bangin laughing out loud

That was just cringeworthy blushing

GalacticStorm

Take a nap. You just cannot hang with me todayboxing

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
1) If Jean never literally removed HCT from the multiverse then following her past alteration HCT would still exist in the multiverse. It does not. The handbook confirms that Phoenix severed the ACTUAL reality from the multiverse. Its stated explicitly do not try and present yourself as credible if you are going to blatantly ignore that and try and persuade people differently, the statement in the handbook is not open to interpretation. Dont try and play like the past alteration made the HCT diverge into an alternate reality so your point is true. Its actually stated it was severed from the multiverse, not that it diverged from the universe, it is no longer a part of the multiverse. Valiant effort clap

2) The statement from your handbook states that Jean disinfected the future reality. It then states she altered the past. That does not help your argument nor impede mine. Thats all true.

3) To disinfect is to free from infection. Phoenix first attempted to do so by extracting Sublime from Beats body, following that she states that the infection was so bad she had to amputate the future. Her actions freed reality from infection. "Phoenix disinfection successful" bangin laughing out loud

That was just cringeworthy blushing 1) Handbooks, which as I've pointed out contradict you and mention not a damn thing about telekinesis on a future.

2) Handbooks, which as I've pointed out contradict you and mention not a damn thing about telekinesis on a future

3) On-panel, Jean refers to Sublime as the "future." Obviously, that's not meant to be literal as a bacterial organism isn't a timeline. Later, Jean says she "amputated the future." Somehow... the same exact term, "future," cannot possibly refer to Sublime. Wow. And now, Jean must be completely literal about this. Wow. Even though we have on-panel confirmation between Jean and Phoenix consciousness literally equating "Phoenix disinfection" and "amputate the future"? Just like the handbooks verify...

... that also mention nothing about telekinetically manipulating time, which... based on the amount of anal bleeding seeping from your rear... hurts you quite a bit. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Take a nap. You just cannot hang with me todayboxing Aww... still restless? Even though you declared that you were going to sleep? Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I think its time for bed. Whilst i sleep try working on those discrepancies or at least disappear. Night night wink

Yup. Still restless and unable to go to sleep. Because of a thread. Hey, why don't you declare that you're going to sleep again because you think you've posted good ninja spam. Maybe the false bravado'll work this time.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
1) Handbooks, which as I've pointed out contradict you and mention not a damn thing about telekinesis on a future.

2) Handbooks, which as I've pointed out contradict you and mention not a damn thing about telekinesis on a future

3) On-panel, Jean refers to Sublime as the "future." Obviously, that's not meant to be literal as a bacterial organism isn't a timeline. Later, Jean says she a"amputatedthe future." Somehow... the same exact term, "future," cannot possibly refer to Sublime. Wow. And now, Jean must be completely literal. Wow. Even though we have on-panel confirmation between Jean and Phoenix consciousness literally equating "Phoenix disinfection" and "aputate the future"? Just like h handbooks verify...

1) They dont need to state that she used tk. I long ago was man enough and humble enough to say her amputation of the HCT timeline wasnt specified to involve tk so why you are still blabbing on about that i dont know. Got nothing else to say? Plus its not like the Phoenix only has telekinesis, according to her profile and on panel appearances she can generate any energy in any amount. We no longer need to focus on what power she used to amputate the future, we know she did smile

2) The handbooks dont contradict me in the slightest. One says she disinfected reality and altered the past, thats true. The second clarifies that during that incident she severed HCT from the multiverse. My interpretation reflects both of these. Yours makes assumptions on the 1st handbook entry such as the removal of Sublime equals the amputation of the universe which is at odds with the 2nd handbook which states Jean amputated the actual HCT universe. Bad luck kid.

3)Ummm. But what you dont seem to get is that since HCT no longer exists in the multiverse, since the official word is that it was severed from it, then we know that where she referred to amputating the future Jean was being literal. The fact that it never remained as a divergent reality says it all. Once again via handbook, on panel statement from Jean and the consequences of her actions you know that in the instance where she said she had amputated the future, she meant literally.

Jeans mission was to remove the bacterial infection from reality, to disinfect it. To disinfect is to free from infection. She freed reality from infection by 1st removing Sublime from Beast and when the infection was still too much she just amputated that reality. Rendering her disinfection mission successful. The Phoenix does not equate the terms disinfect and amputate thats your assumption/fabrication once again. It merely congratulates her on a completed objective. thumb down

The other instance where she QUESTIONS if Sublime is the future she is told that is not the case and you admit that Sublime isnt literally the future, so the fact that the actual future was removed should be enough to end this argument.

Pride is a powerful driving force i see.

Now i really am gonna have a nap for now. Youre boring me to death death

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
1) They dont need to state that she used tk. I long ago was man enough and humble enough to say her amputation of the HCT timeline wasnt specified to involve tk so why you are still blabbing on about that i dont know. Got nothing else to say? Plus its not like the Phoenix only has telekinesis, according to her profile and on panel appearances she can generate any energy in any amount. We no longer need to focus on what power she used to amputate the future, we know she did smile

NOWHERE does she use tk on-panel on time and NOWHERE in any damn handbook has it ever been stated that she used tk on time. Why do I keep pointing that out? What don't you get?! You made up the feat! Completely out of your imagination! What Jean meant by "amputate the future" is completely explained in the very conversation she has on-panel: "is this the future?" = Sublime (you ADMIT this) and "amputate the future" = "Phoenix disinfection." And you admit that the disinfection refers to the extraction of Sublime. You can't be literal about one phrase and not be literal about another phrase... especially when one of the words is being used in both phrases, i.e., "future"! It's so blatant that you made up this feat from both the on-panel evidence and handbook evidence I've rubbed your nose in, your complete lack of any evidence and your double-standards. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
2) The handbooks dont contradict me in the slightest. One says she disinfected reality and altered the past, thats true.Nuff said. None of your crappy handbooks even mention tk on time. Ugh. Keep retreating to your shoddy andbooks that dont even verify haf of what you want to prove andcontradict the other half. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
3)Ummm. But what you dont seem to get is that since HCT no longer exists in the multiverse, since the official word is that it was severed from it, then we know that where she referred to amputating the future Jean was being literal. The fact that it never remained as a divergent reality says it all. Once again via handbook, on panel statement from Jean and the consequences of her actions you know that in the instance where she said she had amputated the future, she meant literally. It's severed because it's no longer the future. What are you talking about?! In the space of two panels, she means "future" literally and then means "future," as in Sublime? How can you be so self-servingly thick about this? Why would she use the word "future" in a flowery sense to to mean Sublime (which you admit she does), but use the word "future" in a completely different and literal sense?! Because you want her to have performed tk on it? You can't perform tk on time in the first place! UGH. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jeans mission was to remove the bacterial infection from reality, to disinfect it. To disinfect is to free from infection. She freed reality from infection by 1st removing Sublime from Beast and when the infection was still too much she just amputated that reality. Rendering her disinfection mission successful. The Phoenix does not equate the terms disinfect and amputate thats your assumption/fabrication once again. It merely congratulates her on a completed objective. thumb down

Be quiet, the amputation of the future = Phoenix disinfection. PROVEN ON-PANEL. It's why when Phoenix mentioned she amputated the future, the Phoenix consciousness confirms the disinfection was successful. And we both know what the disinfection was, the extraction of Sublime. Sorry if that tk feat isn't good enough for you. But it's the only tk feat on-panel. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The other instance where she QUESTIONS if Sublime is the future she is told that is not the case and you admit that Sublime isnt literally the future, so the fact that the actual future was removed should be enough to end this argument. Other instance? It's Jean's very next sentence. Stop trying to subtly manufacture distance between the statements. It's literally the next panel:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Sublime01aa.jpg

And of course it's not meant to be literal. Neither was the first time she mentioned "future"! You have no justification to think otherwise. Except for you wanting Jean to have a universal tk feat on... time. Something that isn't shown on-panel, something never mentioned by ANY handbooks. Something that requires you to completely ignore that Jean refers to Sublime as "future" when she says it twice within two panels. Jesus wept. Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Pride is a powerful driving force i see.

Now i really am gonna have a nap for now. Youre boring me to death death Desperation is ugly. The projection is obvious.

Seriously, I hope you go to sleep 2 hours after declaring you would. No need to be kept up by your delusions being shattered. It's comics. Go away.

zopzop

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Just like when Katherine Pryde from days of future past travelled back in time and possessed 616 Kittys body to change her future she went bk to her timeline to find nothing had changed.

And how AOA is still around despite Bishops past alteration. thumb up

What happened to Here Comes Tomorrow? shifty

@OneDumbG0 and GS

One last one from me for today. It seems that it's been confirmed multiple times on panel by different writers that you can't just go back in time or remove something from a universe willy-nilly and expect to change the future or reality in general (the best you can do is cause a divergent reality).

Here is another one from the Fantastic Four, Reed states that their only chance is to use the UN to wipe that entire future from the timeline.
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/374/fantasticfour34102.th.jpg
They give it to Galactus, he fires it off and it's successful.

So we have two cases where a possible future was not only averted but done away with all together. It took the UN wielded by Galactus for one and Jean/PF for the other. So it's still a damn impressive feat.

OneDumbG0

^ Jean wasn't trying to change the Here Comes Tomorrow future though. It stayed Here Comes Tomorrow. She tried (and succeeded) in making sure that the events that led to it never happened in 616, i.e., Scott loses all hope. In 616, Scott doesn't lose all hope. That, we agree on.

And that's what also happened with Kitty in Days of Future Past. Kitty did try to change the Days of Future Past future, yes. It stayed Days of Future past, true. But she tried (and succeeded) in making sure that the events that led to it never happened in 616, i.e., assassination of Senator Kelly by Brotherhood. In 616, Senator Kelly doesn't get assassinated by Brotherhood.

What I mean by "change the future" is making sure that 616 doesn't evolve into the alternate universe's futures. And obviously, that occurs a lot, including in Here Comes Tomorrow.

People avert futures all the time from happening to the main reality. You can argue that Here Comes Tomorrow was done away altogether by... tk???? But that wasn't portrayed on-panel at all. The removal/amputation of the future = disinfection/extraction of Sublime. That's what she meant by that phrase when you read what they're talking about in context and when you read the handbooks. That's also what she clearly did on-panel. And what also clearly happened on-panel, was the future got replaced with a better one via Jean's manipulation of Scott.

GalacticStorm

All that has happened here is you have had a "eureka!" moment and believe that by putting emphasis on you saying that Jean was merely trying to avert the events that lead to 616 that this whole argument was over. THING AGAIN! eek!

Ive already shattered your argument so i can handle your reiterated waffle in a series of brief points smile

A lot happened in the 150 years between the HCT trigger point (Scotts negative reaction to Emma) and the end of the timeline we saw in New X-men 154:

Sublime made a breakthrough and adapted to affect mutants

Sublime consolidated his power on the planet

Most importantly, Sublime gained the power of the Phoenix mutation.

All prior to this controversial amputation moment.

So lets really get to crux of this lesson. smile

Jeans mission as Phoenix was to not only remove the threat of Sublime from reality, to disinfect it, but also to remove the conditions in which he managed to gain such a stronghold.

By merely removing Sublime at the end of that 150 year duration that was HCT reality and then going on to change the past, Sublime with the power of the Phoenix still exists within reality. D'OH bangin

Furthermore if thats all that she did, the Here Comes Tomorrow future reality would still exist in the multiverse as a divergent reality if as per your flawed and officially denied interpretation in both instances of the "future" reference Jean was referring to Sublime smile

So try as you might to deflect by focusing on the fact that its not stated to be achieved by telekinesis (irrelevant, the Phoenix can generate any energy/power by canon) so that you actually have more than one sentence to write

Try and ignore Jeans statement, the consequences of her actions and the handbook entry which all similarly reject your interpretation

But at the end of the day Sublime being the subject in question does NOT explain why the actual reality 15104 was severed from the multiverse

I does NOT explain why there is not a Phoenix powered Sublime running around in the multiverse.

So youre back where you started.

HCT the actual future doesnt exist in the multiverse anymore. WHY?!! eek!

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Jean wasn't trying to change the Here Comes Tomorrow future though. It stayed Here Comes Tomorrow. She tried (and succeeded) in making sure that the events that led to it never happened in 616, i.e., Scott loses all hope. In 616, Scott doesn't lose all hope. That, we agree on.

And that's what also happened with Kitty in Days of Future Past. Kitty did try to change the Days of Future Past future, yes. It stayed Days of Future past, true. But she tried (and succeeded) in making sure that the events that led to it never happened in 616, i.e., assassination of Senator Kelly by Brotherhood. In 616, Senator Kelly doesn't get assassinated by Brotherhood.

What I mean by "change the future" is making sure that 616 doesn't evolve into the alternate universe's futures. And obviously, that occurs a lot, including in Here Comes Tomorrow.

People avert futures all the time from happening to the main reality. You can argue that Here Comes Tomorrow was done away altogether by... tk???? But that wasn't portrayed on-panel at all. The removal/amputation of the future = disinfection/extraction of Sublime. That's what she meant by that phrase when you read what they're talking about in context and when you read the handbooks. That's also what she clearly did on-panel. And what also clearly happened on-panel, was the future got replaced with a better one via Jean's manipulation of Scott.

All irrelevant.

Jeans mission as Phoenix is to perpetuate evolution, she does this by burning away that which does not work, that which is foreseen to impede evolution.

Simply removing Sublime from the end of an 150 year long timeline and then altering the past would leave a Phoenix powered bacterial colony hellbent on impeding evolution free to cause havoc within the multiverse.

That would NOT be a successful disinfection laughing out loud

And waffle aside the fact remains that the HCT reality no longer exists within the multiverse. Stop waffling and address that point

Your interpretation states that when Jean extracted sublime from beast and she shifted into another location even though she then states because of the severity of the infection she had to resort to amputating the future that what she meant by "future" was Sublime even though following her statement as confirmed by the handbook the ACTUAL reality 15104 was severed (kinda like what happens in an amputation eek!

) from the multiverse and all BEFORE she altered the past?

(Step 1. severed from the multiverse. Step 2. The past is altered)

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

Wanna kindly tell all of us on KMC how you remove a timeline by extracting some bacteria from Beast at the end of said timeline? shifty

Dont address me quote for quote deal with the discrepancies ive listed only:

If in both references to future Jean was referring to Sublime and wasnt being literal in either instance why was the actual future amputated like Jean said she did?

Why is there not a HCT reality that still exists in the multiverse as per previous past alteration instances with a Phoenix powered Sublime causing havoc? (GREAT disinfection roll eyes (sarcastic)

)

Your interpretation cant account for these points, it is rejected by a handbook entry whilst my interpretation CAN be interpreted from the scene and is not denied by any official marvel source.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All that has happened here is you have had a "eureka!" moment and believe that by putting emphasis on you saying that Jean was merely trying to avert the events that lead to 616 that this whole argument was over. THING AGAIN! eek!

**events that lead to HCT** TYPO! eek!

leonidas

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But at the end of the day Sublime being the subject in question does NOT explain why the actual reality 15104 was severed from the multiverse

HCT the actual future doesnt exist in the multiverse anymore. WHY?!! eek!

and as much as i've been enjoying this little tete-a-tete, (much more enjoyable than the usual gs/masters scan blitz wars) this is really the only question that odg hasn't really been able to counter aside from saying it's a trope that's ignored as often as it is addressed. i'm not so sure about that. that future universe is gone--not diverged, not disinfected, but......gone. that is a pretty unique event. erm

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by leonidas
and as much as i've been enjoying this little tete-a-tete, (much more enjoyable than the usual gs/masters scan blitz wars) this is really the only question that odg hasn't really been able to counter aside from saying it's a trope that's ignored as often as it is addressed. i'm not so sure about that. that future universe is gone--not diverged, not disinfected, but......gone. that is a pretty unique event. erm

Thank you

GalacticStorm

And the future universe actually being amputated off of the timeline explains why the Force said that 616 was now wounded and had to be taken to "the hospital" the white hot room. Hence the universe in the palm of the hand feat followed by Jeans updated bio saying she could manipulate universal scale atomic structures smile

I love Grant Morrison laughing out loud

guy222

He's ok

Love the Bird

And Onslaught loses to the Force

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by guy222
He's ok

Love the Bird

And Onslaught loses to the Force

I dont think any seasoned KMC poster doubted Phoenixes superiority to Onslaught. Mr Master sees the Phoenix Force as a threat to his fantasy hierarchy so after he once again tried to majorly demean the character to serve his fabrications, true to form i stepped in to correct him and then the thread kind of went off on a tangent subject wise.

But im just glad that i have proven Phoenixes casual destruction of the Here Comes Tomorrow universe feat, which in turn supports her 616 in the palm of the hand feat as amputating the HCT future timeline from 616 gives reason for 616 being wounded and necessitated Jean taking 616 into "the hospital" (The White Hot Room) to be healed as stated by the Phoenix Consciousness. smile

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

I dont think any seasoned KMC poster doubted Phoenixes superiority to Onslaught. Mr Master sees the Phoenix Force as a threat to his fantasy hierarchy so after he once again tried to majorly demean the character to serve his fabrications, true to form i stepped in to correct him and then the thread kind of went off on a tangent subject wise.
durlaugh

You really are clown.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But im just glad that i have proven Phoenixes casual destruction of the Here Comes Tomorrow universe feat, which in turn supports her 616 in the palm of the hand feat as amputating the HCT future timeline from 616 gives reason for 616 being wounded and necessitated Jean taking 616 into "the hospital" (The White Hot Room) to be healed as stated by the Phoenix Consciousness.
durznuts
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

^ Jean wasn't trying to change the Here Comes Tomorrow future though. It stayed Here Comes Tomorrow. She tried (and succeeded) in making sure that the events that led to it never happened in 616, i.e., Scott loses all hope. In 616, Scott doesn't lose all hope. That, we agree on.

And that's what also happened with Kitty in Days of Future Past. Kitty did try to change the Days of Future Past future, yes. It stayed Days of Future past, true. But she tried (and succeeded) in making sure that the events that led to it never happened in 616, i.e., assassination of Senator Kelly by Brotherhood. In 616, Senator Kelly doesn't get assassinated by Brotherhood.

What I mean by "change the future" is making sure that 616 doesn't evolve into the alternate universe's futures. And obviously, that occurs a lot, including in Here Comes Tomorrow.

People avert futures all the time from happening to the main reality. You can argue that Here Comes Tomorrow was done away altogether by... tk???? But that wasn't portrayed on-panel at all. The removal/amputation of the future = disinfection/extraction of Sublime. That's what she meant by that phrase when you read what they're talking about in context and when you read the handbooks. That's also what she clearly did on-panel. And what also clearly happened on-panel, was the future got replaced with a better one via Jean's manipulation of Scott.
thumb up

... and good lord you're battering Galactic Storm's fallacious fantasies
like a mote caught in a storm.

I'm accustomed to doing the same,
but gotta admit I love the style/lingo in which you do it.

Simple and put: One cannot manipulate reality (Space-Time) via atoms.

Atoms are physical particles,
while reality (Space-Time) are abstract concepts.

While it's 100% fact that Jean never held an actual reality in her hands,
even if she was able to supposedly manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale,
this would have to be physical matter (atoms)
in which case we're talking about the stuff within space-time (Galaxies, Stars, dust and gases etc)

but ...

Eternity (time) Infinity (space) which make up reality and whatever universe,
are not being warped/controlled/manipulated via atoms.

Not during HCT, not before, and not after.

-------------------------------------------------

This is what handling after re-structuring a Universe looks like:

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234798_utto3.jpg

Uatu is even able to place it in his chest piece for safe keeping.

sarcasticclap

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master
durlaugh

You really are clown.

durznuts

thumb up

... and good lord you're battering Galactic Storm's fallacious fantasies
like a mote caught in a storm.

I'm accustomed to doing the same,
but gotta admit I love the style/lingo in which you do it.

Simple and put: One cannot manipulate reality (Space-Time) via atoms.

Atoms are physical particles,
while reality (Space-Time) are abstract concepts.

While it's 100% fact that Jean never held an actual reality in her hands,
even if she was able to supposedly manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale,
this would have to be physical matter (atoms)
in which case we're talking about the stuff within space-time (Galaxies, Stars, dust and gases etc)

but ...

Eternity (time) Infinity (space) which make up reality and whatever universe,
are not being warped/controlled/manipulated via atoms.

Not during HCT, not before, and not after.

As Jean stated on panel and as verified by the handbook she amputated HCT from reality. She casually did away with a universe.

That point alone rubbishes ODG's entire interpretation, it hinged on that scene. So commiserations to him and especially to you who sought to use him as a crutch because your own shit gets torn apart everytime i log on eek!

As depicted on panel she then had telekinetic control of the universe in the palm of her hand followed up by an updated handbook bio confirming that fact. Whether you can understand it by your grasp of real world physics or not young man is irrelevant, its a comic book with comic book physics so you dont have to. Its official. Come to terms with that smile

Now unless you can explain to us what happened to the Here Comes Tomorrow reality then you really need to run along to the Marvel The End thread where i have made preparations to decimate the crap you are passing off as an argument.

Merry Xmas cool

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234798_utto3.jpg

Uatu is even able to place it in his chest piece for safe keeping.

sarcasticclap

After the conclusion of the limited series Marvel 1602 saw reality fixing itself and the alternate timeline earth 311 was basically destroyed, the high council of Watchers were able to save elements of said reality "crafted from the fringes of alternity" to form a little pocket universe as a gift to Uatu because he enjoyed watching that particular reality so much and was saddened to see the majority of it destroyed. Elements of a reality crafted from a dying alternate reality = pocket universe. A reality that is smaller in scale than a standard reality and not a part of the multiversal tree roll eyes (sarcastic)

Jean manipulated the atoms of 616, the core universe and that was just after casually dispatching reality 15104. smokin'

I applaud your attempt Mr Master but once again you have come up short. Hopefully the festivities of this day will help you to overlook your loss.

Merry Xmas eek!

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

As Jean stated on panel and as verified by the handbook she amputated HCT from reality.

She casually did away with a universe.
She amputated the HCT future by extracting Sublime's atoms
and shifting outside reality 15104 into the WHR.

"Casually" my ass.

It took prep, in fact, her friends had to die during the 7 pages of prep time Jean had.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

That point alone rubbishes ODG's entire interpretation, it hinged on that scene. So commiserations to him and especially to you who sought to use him as a crutch because your own gets torn apart everytime i log on
ODG has dismantled
and completely obliterated everything he's replied to concerning your intransigence.

"sought to use him as a crutch" ... wtf?

So every time you quickly start praising anyone who agrees with you,
(in this thread ONE person)
this means you're using them as a "crutch" due to the same horse shit reasons
you're attempting to stamp on me?

You really are a lowlife hypocrite in my book, now and forever.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

As depicted on panel she then had telekinetic control of the
universe in the palm of her hand followed up by an updated
handbook bio confirming that fact.
False.

It's clearly depicted on panel it was only Sublime she controlled atomically.

By the time the visualization of reality 15104 pops up in her hands,
Jean had already commented on her atomic feat,
in obvious reference to Sublime who she had just dealt with.

God is it really that difficult for ya?

Oh no that's right, it's just deliberate intransigence at work.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Whether you can understand it by your grasp of real world
physics or not young man is irrelevant, its a comic book with comic
book physics so you dont have to. Its official. Come to terms with
that
Yea,
I understand that Marvel Comic writers
know the difference between Space-Time and Matter.

It's also official, that the Phoenix is just another concept,
essential to matter within reality, like all the abstracts serving a function,
to compliment a working Universe (Space-Time/Death-Oblivion/Galactus)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Now unless you can explain to us what happened to the Here
Comes Tomorrow reality
How can you not know that?

Nothing happened to it, because it never happened.

Scott Summers (Cyclops) created the "Here Comes Tomorrow" universe (reality 15104)
by deciding to leave the X-Men in 616, this cause the divergence.

When Jean reached back into 616 (where & when Scott made his decision)
and she changed his mind about leaving the X-Men,
reality 15104 ceased to exist.

The power to alter Reality 15104 (Here Comes Tomorrow)
was always and only within Scott's decision.

Cyclops created reality 15104 ... Cyclops nullified reality 15104 via Jean's mind rape.

That's it, that is all of it.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

then you really need to run along to the Marvel The End thread
where i have made preparations to decimate the crap you are
passing off as an argument.
hysterical2
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Merry Xmas
Bathe yourself in honey and lie down on an siafu ant hill.

GalacticStorm

What a load of shit laughing

You cannot alter a future by changing a past event, that is marvel canon and a number of scans from both myself and zopzop have been posted within the last 3 pages that prove and state that fact explicitly. So good try. thumb up

I do not need to argue with you in depth because ODG is considerably better than you and even he was left stumped.

It states on panel that Jean amputated HCT from reality and that was BEFORE she even altered the past. Something stated explicitly in the handbook thereby verifying it.

So Scott had nothing to do with the destruction of HCT by on panel statement and handbook statement. Scott played a part in replacing the HCT future after Phoenix controlled him to do so smile

All on panel all stated in the handbooks.

Thats all i need to say to you with regards to this. Its been argued to death and youre bringing nothing new that i havent discredited, youre irrelevant. smile

zopzop

@GS

Exactly. I just want to know where that entire alternate reality/future went. As we've seen, on panel, it's not as easy as going back in time or otherwise interfering with reality that can cause that to happen.

The only thing other aside from Jean that has successfully accomplish this is the UN in the hands of someone who knows how to use it properly.

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

After the conclusion of the limited series Marvel 1602 saw reality fixing itself and the alternate timeline earth 311 was basically destroyed, the high council of Watchers were able to save elements of said reality "crafted from the fringes of alternity" to form a little pocket universe as a gift to Uatu because he enjoyed watching that particular reality so much and was saddened to see the majority of it destroyed. Elements of a reality crafted from a dying alternate reality = pocket universe. A reality that is smaller in scale than a standard reality and not a part of the multiversal tree

False.

Reality 311 was never destroyed, it was preserved by the Council of Watchers.

That aside:

..............................................................................................

Earth 616: (616 Universe)

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9606/616mw2.th.jpg

"Core Continuum designation given to the Prime Earth of the Marvel Universe,
Reality from which most Alternate Earths derive"

..............................................................................................

So, a Core Continuum designation (or number)
is given to the Universes of Marvel.

Cool ....

1602 (Alternate Universe)

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234814_Alt1.jpg

"Core Continuum Designation: Earth 311"

hm

Hey, just like Here Comes Tomorrow (Alternate Universe)

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234815_Alt2.jpg

"Core Continuum Designation: Earth 15104"

..............................................................................................

srugyellowshoes

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by zopzop
@GS

Exactly. I just want to know where that entire alternate reality/future went. As we've seen, on panel, it's not as easy as going back in time or otherwise interfering with reality that can cause that to happen.

The only thing other aside from Jean that has successfully accomplish this is the UN in the hands of someone who knows how to use it properly.

Mr Master knows we're right.

Hes just mad cos i went into his Marvel: The End discussion thread, asked a few questions he cant answer now hes here for revenge laughing out loud

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Mr Master knows we're right.
Wrong.

Mr Master knows you are completely incorrect.

The shit that I've seen your one and only supporter post in other threads
is enough for me to see what level of knowledge pertaining to this stands by your side.

Therefore, it is hilarious to me the way you bust on yourself
when even clueless joes applaud you.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Hes just mad cos i went into his Marvel: The End discussion thread,
asked a few questions he cant answer now hes here for revenge
This is more of the same bull shit you're all about.

I wonder if you're like this in real life, you may survive with the Brits on that b*tch-like behavior,
in NYC, you'd get punched in the face daily though.

That's Leo's thread,
and I just participated in it and while you may wash this newbs eyes with your comedy,
the fact remains, you're a joke, and as soon as he realizes this,
he'll be owning you in debates as well.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master
False.

Reality 311 was never destroyed, it was preserved by the Council of Watchers.

That aside:

..............................................................................................

Earth 616: (616 Universe)

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9606/616mw2.th.jpg

"Core Continuum designation given to the Prime Earth of the Marvel Universe,
Reality from which most Alternate Earths derive"

..............................................................................................

So, a Core Continuum designation (or number)
is given to the Universes of Marvel.

Cool ....

1602 (Alternate Universe)

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234814_Alt1.jpg

"Core Continuum Designation: Earth 311"

hm

Hey, just like Here Comes Tomorrow (Alternate Universe)

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234815_Alt2.jpg

"Core Continuum Designation: Earth 15104"

..............................................................................................

srugyellowshoes

Yep thats the reality designation it had and still has because it started off as a part of the multiversal tree.

Notice in the same way the Here Comes Tomorrow reality still possesses its reality designation because of its origins as a mainstream alternate reality, even though HCT is confirmed to no longer be a part of the marvel multiverse smile

If you read the marvel 1602 series you'd see that that reality was coming to an end and from the very scan you posted as far as the Watcher who was studying it knew, it had ended, hence being surprised by the revelation that the watcher high tribunal had managed to preserve elements of that reality "crafted from the fringes of alternity" to form a pocket universe that watcher could keep in a locket smile

I do so love doing this to you.

Carry on Emmie, give me something to work with laughing

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Yep thats the reality designation it had and still has because it started off as a part of the multiversal tree.

Notice in the same way the Here Comes Tomorrow reality still possesses its reality designation because of its origins as a mainstream alternate reality, even though HCT is confirmed to no longer be a part of the marvel multiverse

If you read the marvel 1602 series you'd see that that reality was coming to an end and from the very scan you posted as far as the Watcher who was studying it knew, it had ended, hence being surprised by the revelation that the watcher high tribunal had managed to preserve elements of that reality "crafted from the fringes of alternity" to form a pocket universe that watcher could keep in a locket
False.

Reality 311 never ended, and just cause the Council altered it,
doesn't stop it from being an alternate reality.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

I do so love doing this to you.
You make me shine all the time.
I mean, devouring your ridiculous completely unsupported
delusional fallacious claims is what the crowd loves.

Believe me when I tell you I love what you do much more.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Carry on Emmie, give me something to work with
Hey Pino ~~~> liar all you gots ta give me is your sista.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master
False.

Reality 311 never ended, and just cause the Council altered it,
doesn't stop it from being an alternate reality.

You make me shine all the time.
I mean, devouring your ridiculous completely unsupported
delusional fallacious claims is what the crowd loves.

Believe me when I tell you I love what you do much more.

Hey Pino ~~~> liar all you gots ta give me is your sista.

Reality unraveled in the series and as far as the Watcher knew it had done, hence his surprise in the scan you posted a scan you really should have read first where is presented with parts of that timeline he loved in pocket universe form.

Commiserations. Read the comic, like ODG dont rely on out of context scans to form your argument.

On the other hand if you have read the comic then youre a lost cause laughing

And as for the last comment my sister doesnt deal with scrubs who are all balls and baby sized parts eek!

Mr Master

+++++++++++

Yet again!

The Phoenix Force getting OWNED!

++++++++++

Archangel annihilates several X-Men and OWNS the Phoenix almost effortlessly,
even after withstanding the Phoenix's initial attack.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234860_archangelvsxforce1.jpg
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234861_archangelvsxforce2.jpg
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234862_archangelvsxforce3.jpg
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234863_archangelvsxforce4.jpg

Don't make me bring out the 6 Heroes who stalemated and then displaced the Phoenix Force.

Or the Alien Ship that impaled and nearly killed the Phoenix Force.

Or the Shiar shattering it and nearly killing it as well.

Or Xorn exploding the Phoenix Force into billions of pieces,
while simultaneously killing the host. (Jean)

Or Quasar owning Rachel Summers with the full Force.

Or ...

ahh, whatever, this is all comedy. laughing out loud

I know, I know, you'l just whip up some essay-like bullshit explanation
attempting to trivialize how the PF gets owned constantly.

zopzop

@Mr. Master

This is false. At the time Rachel never had the full PF and was under a spell/mind control from Mordred.

And did you even read the scan concerning Archangel and Jean? He even said the Force betrayed her because she was using it in a way it didn't desire.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master
+++++++++++

Yet again!

The Phoenix Force getting OWNED!

++++++++++

Archangel annihilates several X-Men and OWNS the Phoenix almost effortlessly,
even after withstanding the Phoenix's initial attack.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234860_archangelvsxforce1.jpg
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234861_archangelvsxforce2.jpg
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234862_archangelvsxforce3.jpg
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234863_archangelvsxforce4.jpg

Don't me bring out the 6 Heroes who stalemated and then displaced the Phoenix Force.

Or the Alien Ship that impaled and nearly killed the Phoenix Force.

Or the Shiar shattering it and nearly killing it as well.

Or Xorn exploding the Phoenix Force into billions of pieces,
while simultaneously killing the host. (Jean)

Or Quasar owning Rachel Summers with the full Force.

Or ...

ahh, whatever, this is all comedy. laughing out loud

If you read the actual scans youre presenting you'll see that as artisitically presented and as stated by Archangel he never did a thing. The Phoenix turned on AOA Jean because she was attacking Archangel who was on a mission to restart evolution on Earth and with death and rebirth being what the Force perpetuates it shut Jean down smile

Good try

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by zopzop
@Mr. Master

This is false. At the time Rachel never had the full PF and was under a spell/mind control from Mordred.

And did you even read the scan concerning Archangel and Jean? He even said the Force betrayed her because she was using it in a way it didn't desire.

Hes full of lies.

Hes angry because he expected to log back on and see that ODG (who he was relyin on) had me handled, but not only has the opposite happened but ive also rippled a part his fallacies in another thread so now hes quite immaturely on a revenge mission to demean the Phoenixes status through lies and out of context scans smile

Mr Master

Originally posted by zopzop
@Mr. Master

This is false.

At the time Rachel never had the full PF
and was under a spell/mind control from Mordred.
@zopzop

This is false.

Rachel had the full power of the Force in that issue,
and,
Mordred was controlling her but that didn't stop him from
harnessing the power she was tapping. (PF)

Originally posted by zopzop

And did you even read the scan concerning Archangel and Jean?
He even said the Force betrayed her because she was using it in a
way it didn't desire.
Yea,
did you read the story are you still trying to make out an entire plot out of a scan or two?

I told ya homie, stop doing that.

The betrayal has nothing to do with the ability to wield the power.

Read the book friend, then come back.

zopzop

I honestly think it's just his and ODG's different take on what was going on in those HCT scans.

At this point, I can see where he and ODG are coming from with their opinions but then again statements like "it's an orphan universe" and "if it were me I'd just let it die" statement by the PC member concerning what Jean had in her hands is a slam dunk in favor of it being an actual universe and not merely a visualization. But I don't care about that anymore.

After all this, I'm more impressed with Jean erasing that future from the timeline WITHOUT causing a divergence, she literally wiped it out. Nothing short of the UN wielded by an experienced user can do that (so far that I've seen). And all this is backed up with on panel proof (I don't put much faith into Handbook stuff).

You know what could end this? Or at least add more insight into what was going on? If someone could contact the writer and ask him. I know Guy or someone else had luck contacting other writers and asking questions about certain comics. I wonder if that would be possible here?

zopzop

Originally posted by Mr Master
@zopzop

This is false.

Rachel had the full power of the Force in that issue,
and,
Mordred was controlling her but that didn't stop him from
harnessing the power she was tapping. (PF)

Sorry MM but you are dead wrong. She DID NOT have the FULL PF. I defy you to prove it.

The Archangel scans speak for themselves though. Nothing more need by added by me.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master
@zopzop

This is false.

Rachel had the full power of the Force in that issue,
and,
Mordred was controlling her but that didn't stop him from
harnessing the power she was tapping. (PF)

Yea,
did you read the story are you still trying to make out an entire plot out of a scan or two?

I told ya homie, stop doing that.

The betrayal has nothing to do with the ability to wield the power.

Read the book friend, then come back.

Who cares either way?

The HCT feats stand. On this issue you have now conclusively lost.

You will deal young man laughing out loud

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

If you read the actual scans youre presenting you'll see that as artisitically presented and as stated by Archangel he never did a thing. The Phoenix turned on AOA Jean because she was attacking Archangel who was on a mission to restart evolution on Earth and with death and rebirth being what the Force perpetuates it shut Jean down
The only thing that shut Jean down was Archangel via a blast:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234877_Own.jpg

Nice try back at ya.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master
The only thing that shut Jean down was Archangel via a blast:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234877_Own.jpg

Nice try back at ya.

Nope. As he actually stated in that scan, "the Phoenix betrays you"

Why? "You seek to stop that which it desires most..death and rebirth"

As he says that the Phoenix Force flies back at Jean stopping her from attacking Archangel further.

Good try at blatantly lying about whats explicitly stated and depicted on panel. thumb down

Mr Master

Originally posted by zopzop

At this point, I can see where he and ODG are coming from with their opinions but then again statements like "it's an orphan universe" and "if it were me I'd just let it die" statement by the PC member concerning what Jean had in her hands is a slam dunk in favor of it being an actual universe and not merely a visualization. But I don't care about that anymore.
"it's an orphan universe" ...

Yea, a hologram visualization of reality 15104,
or simply an image as in a picture, or a display on a screen,
or rather a projection of a model, in this case, a universe.

"if it were me I'd just let it die" ...

Yea,
who cares about some alternate possible future of the countless possible futures in Marvel:

Earth 691 - GOTG: (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/542946_futurejm5.jpg

"There is a Second that wrestles with Eternity.
A heartbeat forever frozen in the tapestry of Time,
This is such a moment ...

The Year is 3017 A.D in ONE of the MANY Possible Futures of the Multiverse"
Originally posted by zopzop

After all this, I'm more impressed with Jean erasing that future
from the timeline WITHOUT causing a divergence, she literally
wiped it out. Nothing short of the UN wielded by an experienced
user can do that (so far that I've seen). And all this is backed up
with on panel proof (I don't put much faith into Handbook stuff).
laughing

What the hell are you talking about?

Jean simply went back in time to Present 616,
changed Scott's mind about leaving the X-Men, and .. that's it.

That's how Reality 15104 cease to exist.

Scott Summers created reality 15104, and nullified it via his decision.
Scott Summers' decision was the make it or break it for that universe.

I don't know what kind of bull shit you're falling for,
but if you call that UN capable only, I think I wanna know where you get your smoke.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master

Jean simply went back in time to Present 616,
changed Scott's mind about leaving the X-Men, and .. that's it.

That's how Reality 15104 cease to exist.

I don't know what kind of bull shit you're falling for,
but if you call that UN capable only, I think I wanna know where you get your smoke.

Its actually stated on panel that Jean amputated it from reality and the handbook explicitly states that reality 15104 was severed from the multiverse by Phoenix BEFORE she then went on to change Scotts reaction to replace the future she cut off with a new one.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

Phoenix altering Scotts reaction only replaced the reality. Phoenix got rid of that timeline before any past alteration even occurred and thats official.

Learn to accept defeat like an adult. If its stated clearly on panel and very clearly in a handbook then its game over. Grow up thumb up

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

As he says that

the Phoenix Force flies back at Jean stopping her from attacking Archangel further.
Will you stop lying? ... Just once?

Yea, clearly the Force is flying back at Jean: no expression

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10235050_Own2.jpg

Uhh, oops, no, that's Archangel ejecting a purple blast out of his eyes,
which floors Phoenix for the k.o..
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Good try at blatantly lying about whats explicitly stated and depicted on panel.
Wow, talk about a post most deserving of what you do, what you are.

Good try at blatantly lying about whats explicitly depicted on panel.

zopzop

Originally posted by Mr Master
"it's an orphan universe" ...

Yea, a hologram visualization of reality 15104,
or simply an image as in a picture, or a display on a screen,
or rather a projection of a model, in this case, a universe.

"if it were me I'd just let it die" ...

Yea,
who cares about some alternate possible future of the countless possible futures in Marvel:

Earth 691 - GOTG: (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/542946_futurejm5.jpg

"There is a Second that wrestles with Eternity.
A heartbeat forever frozen in the tapestry of Time,
This is such a moment ...

The Year is 3017 A.D in ONE of the MANY Possible Futures of the Multiverse"

laughing

Uhm ok? GS and I view it as an actual alternate reality universe, you and ODG see it as merely a visualtization in her hands. This won't be settled here but if only someone could contact the writer or something it would be interesting to see his thoughts on this.

What am I talking about? Go back and read the previous posts (starts on page 5)where GS and I posted on panel proof that simply going back in time doesn't change the future. You'll be pleasantly surprised. Or not.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master
Will you stop lying? ... Just once?

Yea, clearly the Force is flying back at Jean: no expression

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10235050_Own2.jpg

Uhh, oops, no, that's Archangel ejecting a purple blast out of his eyes,
which floors Phoenix for the k.o..

Wow, talk about a post most deserving of what you do, what you are.

Good try at blatantly lying about whats explicitly depicted on panel.

Since when has Archangel been depicted in comics as a destructive energy wielder? Furthermore when has he been depicted as being able to project firebird projected energy forms? roll eyes (sarcastic)

How can you lie so blatantly? confused

Mr Master

Originally posted by zopzop

What am I talking about? Go back and read the previous posts (starts
on page 5)where GS and I posted on panel proof that simply going
back in time doesn't change the future.

You'll be pleasantly surprised.
Or not.
Not.

Since I know all that crap already, and in no way does it help Jean.

"GS and I" (you) have done nothing imo that changes anything about this discussion.

I don't care what unrelated, irrelevant outside source anyone ontains to derail facts.

Simple.

Scott Summers left the X-Men in 616 and this caused "Here Comes Tomorrow" to diverge,
like all What Ifs.

Now,
had Scott never made that decision, then "Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104) does not diverge,
in other words, it's NEVER created, it never existed.

So,
Jean goes back in time to the point BEFORE Scott makes this decision,
she mind rapes him to change that decision and instead stay with the X-Men,
because of this, "Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104) never was.

Simple, and I'm done. swank

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not.

Since I know all that crap already, and in no way does it help Jean.

"GS and I" (you) have done nothing imo that changes anything about this discussion.

I don't care what unrelated, irrelevant outside source anyone ontains to derail facts.

Simple.

Scott Summers left the X-Men in 616 and this caused "Here Comes Tomorrow" to diverge,
like all What Ifs.

Now,
had Scott never made that decision, then "Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104) does not diverge,
in other words, it's NEVER created, it never existed.

So,
Jean goes back in time to the point BEFORE Scott makes this decision,
she mind rapes him to change that decision and instead stay with the X-Men,
because of this, "Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104) never was.

Simple, and I'm done. swank

All bull because as we've proven you cant affect a future timeline through past alteration.

That point alone rubbishes your whole post.

Furthermore it was Jean not doing her Phoenix work, getting too emotionally engaged and being too human and dying that caused HCT as stated by the Phoenix Consciousness on panel.

Wrong again eek!

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Since when has Archangel been depicted in comics as a destructive energy wielder?

Uhm, I don't know, since right here since it's exactly what's depicted:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10235050_Own2.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

How can you lie so blatantly?
First time you ask me that question, and even now it's groundless.

But I've been asking you since your lies back o5'
you know, the whole LT bowing to Phoenix bull shit
but some things just are, and I've accepted you for what you are.

it's still fun watching your Phoenix delusions in play.

Mr Master

That is it ....

+++++++++++++

Simple.

Scott Summers left the X-Men in 616 and this caused "Here Comes Tomorrow" to diverge,
like all What Ifs.

Now,
had Scott never made that decision, then "Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104) does not diverge,
in other words, it's NEVER created, it never existed.

So,
Jean goes back in time to the point BEFORE Scott makes this decision,
she mind rapes him to change that decision and instead stay with the X-Men,
because of this, "Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104) never was.

Simple.

thankyou

GalacticStorm

Incredible laughing out loud

Youve fallen so far Mr Master.

Ive said all i need to say anyway, youve had no impact today whatsoever, the true debate was between me and ODG and that is now over.

With regards to the HCT/Phoenix issue my argument came out on top because of points i had which could not be countered.

I depart as champion.

Farewell wink

GalacticStorm

GAME OVER

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

A lot happened in the 150 years between the HCT trigger point (Scotts negative reaction to Emma) and the end of the timeline we saw in New X-men 154:

Sublime made a breakthrough and adapted to affect mutants

Sublime consolidated his power on the planet

Most importantly, Sublime gained the power of the Phoenix mutation.

All prior to this controversial amputation moment.

So lets really get to crux of this lesson. smile

Mr Master

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Incredible

Youve fallen so far Mr Master.
Incredible!

You've fallen so far Galactic Storm.

See how easy it is to type meaningless drivel.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Ive said all i need to say anyway, youve had no impact today
whatsoever, the true debate was between me and ODG and that is
now over.
I've said and actually what I've been saying for years now,
and although you've yet to present anything of consequence,
atleast we can depend on the predictable gobbledygook you'l let loose that at best will seduce an innocent clueless soul.

But that aside:

"the true debate" ... ? laughing out loud

There was no debate, it was a slaughter.

OneDumbGo owned you completely.

No different than when you and I go at it.

Result:

You get owned.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

With regards to the HCT/Phoenix issue my argument came out on
top because of points i had which could not be countered.
Yea, you are the king of the world in your room in-front of your screen,
yes GS,
look at how the numbers/fonts and clicking sounds from the keyboard admire you.

LOL! ... You're pathetic, but funny.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

I depart as champion.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10235825_GS_U_Fool.jpg

GalacticStorm

Jean: "I had to amputate the future"

MARVEL HANDBOOKS: Phoenix severed the reality 15104 from the multiverse BEFORE going on to ensure that future never came about in 616 by altering past events. The prior destruction of this future reality by Phoenix explaining why HCT didnt just continue to exist as a divergent reality following the past alteration:

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

MARVEL COMICS- Future realities cannot be affected by altering past events, altering the past, it merely creates a divergent reality and leaves that future unaffected

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6594/ff543dcp0003.th.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop

@OnedumbG0 and GS

I think GS is on to something when he said changing the past under normal circumstances does not change the future. In an issue of Quasar some being that Quasar couldn't stop was tricked into going back into time to achieve his goals. Another hero stated that this was madness since once there, he could basically conquer all reality. Quasar said that Uatu stated it's not that easy. Merely going back in time or trying to alter the future only produces an alternate timeline and does NOT affect mainstream reality.

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/2231/quasar5223.th.jpg

]Originally posted by zopzop
@OneDumbG0 and GS

It seems that it's been confirmed multiple times on panel by different writers that you can't just go back in time or remove something from a universe willy-nilly and expect to change the future or reality in general (the best you can do is cause a divergent reality).

Here is another one from the Fantastic Four, Reed states that their only chance is to use the UN to wipe that entire future from the timeline.
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/374/fantasticfour34102.th.jpg
They give it to Galactus, he fires it off and it's successful.

So we have two cases where a possible future was not only averted but done away with all together. It took the UN wielded by Galactus for one and Jean/PF for the other. So it's still a damn impressive feat.

Mr Master in response to all of this:

Originally posted by Mr Master

I don't care what unrelated, irrelevant outside source anyone ontains to derail facts.

So,
Jean goes back in time to the point BEFORE Scott makes this decision,
she mind rapes him to change that decision and instead stay with the X-Men,
because of this, "Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104) never was.

Simple, and I'm done. swank

So despite the comic and handbook saying Jean got rid of HCT from the multiverse before going on to replace it by altering the past and despite comics saying you cant affect a future by merely changing the past he continues to ignore the feat and evidence and insist HCT ceased to exist merely because Jean altered Scotts reaction. no expression

And when that doesnt shut me up we get :

Originally posted by Mr Master
+++++++++++

Yet again!

The Phoenix Force getting OWNED!

++++++++++

Archangel annihilates several X-Men and OWNS the Phoenix almost effortlessly,
even after withstanding the Phoenix's initial attack.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10234861_archangelvsxforce2.jpg

Don't make me bring out the 6 Heroes who stalemated and then displaced the Phoenix Force.

Or the Alien Ship that impaled and nearly killed the Phoenix Force.

Or the Shiar shattering it and nearly killing it as well.

Or Xorn exploding the Phoenix Force into billions of pieces,
while simultaneously killing the host. (Jean)

Or Quasar owning Rachel Summers with the full Force.

TRANSLATION: I'm beat. I aint got nothing to say but look here Phoenix is sh*t anyway roll eyes (sarcastic)

guy222

Originally posted by zopzop
I honestly think it's just his and ODG's different take on what was going on in those HCT scans.

At this point, I can see where he and ODG are coming from with their opinions but then again statements like "it's an orphan universe" and "if it were me I'd just let it die" statement by the PC member concerning what Jean had in her hands is a slam dunk in favor of it being an actual universe and not merely a visualization. But I don't care about that anymore.

After all this, I'm more impressed with Jean erasing that future from the timeline WITHOUT causing a divergence, she literally wiped it out. Nothing short of the UN wielded by an experienced user can do that (so far that I've seen). And all this is backed up with on panel proof (I don't put much faith into Handbook stuff).

You know what could end this? Or at least add more insight into what was going on? If someone could contact the writer and ask him. I know Guy or someone else had luck contacting other writers and asking questions about certain comics. I wonder if that would be possible here?

Merry Christmas all

Thanks for the word Zop

I tweet em all the time got a reply back from Kieron Christmas Eve

Remember friends, there was a certain Celestial in an issue. Who knows about the Celestial Death Seed? Is it Continuity? And did Warren fear the Celestials coming? I know all those questions

Peace and Love All