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That's right, I am asking you KMC members under the Herald Classification. Just who is the #1 p4p character.

If possible can you make a top 10 p4p ranking, explaining your reasons.

Go!

p4p...? Pound for pound?

I'm pretty sure Electric Superman had almost no weight

Silver Surfer: he got crazy feats, and his powerset puts him head and shoulder above a lot of his competitors.

IMO, only Thor can be a match for him.

Orion. He can tap into just as much power as any top tier.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Silver Surfer: he got crazy feats, and his powerset puts him head and shoulder above a lot of his competitors. Cosmic awareness + the power cosmic's versatility = win

I put Supes on place 2

Superman.

SS then Thor then everybody else

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Silver Surfer: he got crazy feats, and his powerset puts him head and shoulder above a lot of his competitors.

IMO, only Thor can be a match for him.

This.

Superman.

Character is generally more important than an unfulfilled powerset. Surfer would be at least #3 though.

#1 - Surfer for the sheer awesomeness of his potential and the speeds at which he can (and sometimes does) operate. Surfer can also take beatings from Celestial level beings, for an extended period of time, which sort of helps.

#2 - Hulk, as "one dimensional" as he is, he is literally unending in his ability to pour on more power, more force, more strength, that makes him virtually un-killable. Frequently collapsing dimensions with mere by-products of his blows are feats that I've not seen any of his 'rivals' do. Still, Surfer is much faster, much better at range and has the tools to nullify much of Hulk's attacks.

#3 - Sentry, made Asgard his *****, made Thor cry and only lost when he got freaked out by his own patheticness.

others.

Hulk also weights at least 3-5 times more than most of the people in this group and cant be ranked that high. My top 5
Superman
Thor
Orion
BA
SS

Superman - when needed got amazingly crazy feats and display of overall power, its not a question of how many powers and abilities you got its how you use them, superman is the peak and Symbol of the high herald class

Silver Surfer - great power output and energy manipulation overall is displaying amazing feats even for a herald

Thor - obvious reasons

Hulk is beyond Herald. Thor is overall more powerful but Surfer can do basically anything. When referring to a Herald or comparing someone to a Herald, my first thought is Surfer. He is the embodiment of a Herald being, especially high Herald.

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk is beyond Herald.

Please Explain, not that i mock your statement but i would like to hear how and why he is beyond herald.

He is carver. Simple explanation.

Where would Karate Kid place? I highly doubt he's street....

1.) Superman.
2.) Thor.
3.) Silver Surfer.

Superman.

If a job needs doing, he's the man.

Is Captain Atom still considered in this tier on the forum?

Originally posted by Juntai
Is Captain Atom still considered in this tier on the forum?

I don't see why not, tbh.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
1.) Superman.
2.) Thor.
3.) Silver Surfer. what about hulk?

The names i've seen so far with members making a case for.

Silver Surfer
Orion
Superman
Thor
Sentry

Names I expected to come up.

Members of the Flash Family (Barry, Wally)
Cyborg Superman
Elite Lanterns (Hal, Sinestro, Kyle)

The ones I am drafting.
Photon (Genis-Vell): Absolute biggest beast bar none. I have ranked as pound for pound # An unrivaled cosmic awareness, granting him knowledge of the universe as an open book, and with vast telepathic powers to boot. Vast energy manipulation at a photonic level. All these powers fueled by feeding him energy/matter from the universe itself.

Zemo w/moonstones: is the near equivalent to Dr. Doom with Surfers powers.

Shaman X-Man: Normally, psychics tend to be glass cannons, but when you can rebuild your body from scratch makes for a scary encounter. A psionic/psychic who's who can manipulate matter/energy, warp reality, tk bend space, and time... on top of the various telepathic applications. You dont see to many telepathic-precogs that can seemingly dial up info on the beat unless your a Silver Surfer - Genis-Vell.

Not sure where I rank him, be deff top in the top 10.

Originally posted by Starscream M
what about hulk?

He'd probably be #5 with a Green Lantern at #4 or something.

Flash... You were thinking and now your neurons have no kinetic energy and your body has just stopped.

P4P takes more into consideration then just power/powerset I'm guessing? What are some of the other factors that you're looking for?

Originally posted by "Id"
That's right, I am asking you KMC members under the Herald Classification. Just who is the #1 p4p character.

If possible can you make a top 10 p4p ranking, explaining your reasons.

Go!
I rank them based off their ability to stop threats of ALL kinds.


1. Surfer. He has the best combination of speed and is the most versatile.
2. Thor. He is highly versatile but doesn't have the speed.
3. Superman. He is the strongest and matches surfer in speed (if not succeeds). He is the most simplest which is an advantage only sometimes. The only problems with Superman is against great magical threats, against threats that can only be bfred to another dimension or something to defeat them, and against threats that can bfr him to another dimension (speed helps him here though). Sun dipping definitely amps him well but still doesn't give him bfr ability or ability not to be bfred (other than speed).

Originally posted by "Id"
That's right, I am asking you KMC members under the Herald Classification. Just who is the #1 p4p character.

If possible can you make a top 10 p4p ranking, explaining your reasons.

Go!

In my humble opinion these gentlemen own the tier.

1. Genis
2. Silver Surfer
3. Thor
4. Superman
5. Orion

I have them as equals give or take. Any of them can and will get the job done.

Originally posted by Starscream M
what about hulk?



regardless of strength, he is just too one-dimensional to operate at the levels that the others can. hulk is not interchangeable with anyone in the herald class.

Silver surfer is the Anderson silva of the High herald division. He is the most skilled, has the most varied offence, and finishes his opponents with the most style. Also has an awesome chin and is very elusive. Definitely p4p #1

Originally posted by ComicInVains
Please Explain, not that i mock your statement but i would like to hear how and why he is beyond herald.

Hulk is like Doomsday but more powerful. He can adapt...his strength can increase exponentially in a few seconds. His leaping is almost similar to flight...he can hit intangible beings, possess super speed, can breath in space...can shoot out planet destroying gamma energy. Can grow in size after being shrunk, can overcome matter manipulation. Can grip energy/intangible objects. Has a healing factor, has high end durability.

Hulk is just as versatile as any other Herald but he is far more powerful imo. He can take on beings that defeat teams and if he is losing, he can amp his physical stats up to match said opponents. Hulk is above Herald and is approaching skyfather levels "if he chose too". The only being I would give a win against current Hulk are beings like Zeus, Odin, Dormammu...you get my point.

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk is like Doomsday but more powerful. He can adapt...his strength can increase exponentially in a few seconds. His leaping is almost similar to flight...he can hit intangible beings, possess super speed, can breath in space...can shoot out planet destroying gamma energy. Can grow in size after being shrunk, can overcome matter manipulation. Can grip energy/intangible objects. Has a healing factor, has high end durability.

Hulk is just as versatile as any other Herald but he is far more powerful imo. He can take on beings that defeat teams and if he is losing, he can amp his physical stats up to match said opponents. Hulk is above Herald and is approaching skyfather levels "if he chose too". The only being I would give a win against current Hulk are beings like Zeus, Odin, Dormammu...you get my point.


he can project gamma energy? when was this?

also gotta serious question...since u just placed hulk as a trans-level being r u saying u feel that any feats that high heralds have accomplished he can replicate? im just trying to assuage your viewpoint

Originally posted by dmills
P4P takes more into consideration then just power/powerset I'm guessing? What are some of the other factors that you're looking for?

Well right now, just throw names out, and state why you think they would belong in the top p4p league.

I am looking at how combat effective they are, against all oppositions.



What I plan to do, is get 20 names. Mimic the boxing p4p ranking tracking down the last 15 fights of each character, and determine lose/won a versus topic. This way you can get a hard data, to compare to its abilities, and the overall acceptance in the KMC community.

Maxima, Wonder Woman (full gear pre-new 52), Sersi, Sinestro, and Swamp thing

oh yea Martian manhunter should be wayyyy up there as well

#1) Thor




#2) Superman


#3) Don't matter

Originally posted by Juntai
Is Captain Atom still considered in this tier on the forum? After the feats he's dshown in the first 4 issues, he may be above. It seems DC is making him Dr. Mahattan +.

Originally posted by "Id"
Well right now, just throw names out, and state why you think they would belong in the top p4p league.

I am looking at how combat effective they are, against all oppositions.



What I plan to do, is get 20 names. Mimic the boxing p4p ranking tracking down the last 15 fights of each character, and determine lose/won a versus topic. This way you can get a hard data, to compare to its abilities, and the overall acceptance in the KMC community.

Cool.

Aside from the simple ones (Thor, Supes, Surfer)

Majestic- What you get when you cross the power of a heavyweight with the speed and precision of a lightweight? You get Lord Majestros. Able to wield both sledgehammer or scalpel with equal skill, we've seen the man do everything from move planets, to rewriting the programming of self aware kryptonian artifacts with laser vision, the guy definitely deserves to be mentioned in any pound for pound conversations.

Captain Atom- Quite possibly the best fighter that nobody knows about, but by the time his current run is done he may very well sit at the top of this list. He's been that damn impressive.

Nova Prime- A true light heavyweight. Not known for his punching power, but perhaps no one at the herald level does more with less then Richard Rider. With his combination of speed, power, versatility and mental toughness, he has managed to amass quite the impressive record for himself during the last few years. After being featured in some of the biggest fights in the game over the years, an unfortunate freak injury forced him out of the game for awhile, but according to his camp, word is that he's planning a huge comeback in 2012.

Don King is that you ?

Majestic is a good choice.

I gave my picks before, but I'll take the thread with a different perspective:

If this is about "Who can do the most with what they have" (inside the Hight Herald Lvl tier), then, this is my new list:

1- Superman
2- Hulk
3- Thor
4- Hal Jordan
5- Nova Prime

I still think Surfer has the potential to shit all over most of them, especially Superman, because his powerset is taylor made to **** him up, but he doesn't go all out enough and doesn't use his potential at the fullest but in rare occasions.
Those 5 cats above use everything they have, and kick epic amounts of ass.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
I gave my picks before, but I'll take the thread with a different perspective:

If this is about "Who can do the most with what they have" (inside the Hight Herald Lvl tier), then, this is my new list:

1- Superman
2- Hulk
3- Thor
4- Hal Jordan
5- Nova Prime

I still think Surfer has the potential to shit all over most of them, especially Superman, because his powerset is taylor made to **** him up, but he doesn't go all out enough and doesn't use his potential at the fullest but in rare occasions.
Those 5 cats above use everything they have, and kick epic amounts of ass.

No love for Orion? He wields the Source. Source>Power Cosmic, IMO.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
No love for Orion? He wields the Source. Source>Power Cosmic, IMO.

I put the Power Cosmic above the Source, but that just me.
Also, I see Surfer way more versatile that Orion. It's the main reason I'd put him above, even though Orion is a way, way better fighter that Surfer.

He's not way more versatile, when you count the MB. And how is the PC> Source. Source represents the universal spirit of God.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
He's not way more versatile, when you count the MB. And how is the PC> Source. Source represents the universal spirit of God.

Power Cosmic is wield by the major forces of the MU, so...

Originally posted by Bouboumaster Power Cosmic is wield by the major forces of the MU, so...

which are probably not as powerful as the source itself.

1. Superman

2. Thor

3. Surfer

Originally posted by Prep-Man
He's not way more versatile, when you count the MB. And how is the PC> Source. Source represents the universal spirit of God.

Didn't Superman laugh off Orion's Astro Force blast? Didn't the Surfer absolutely humiliate Orion during a CrossOver event?

Originally posted by zopzop
Didn't Superman laugh off Orion's Astro Force blast? Didn't the Surfer absolutely humiliate Orion during a CrossOver event?

He WRECKED him. Surfer was basically unstoppable until Darkseid backstabbed him.

Originally posted by zopzop Didn't Superman laugh off Orion's Astro Force blast? Didn't the Surfer absolutely humiliate Orion during a CrossOver event?

no. superman was actually knocked out once by the astro force. plus when they first met, orion stated that he had to hold back, because he feared he would have killed supes.

Silver Surfer.

Adam Warlock should be very close to the top as well.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
Don King is that you ?

Only in America.

Originally posted by zopzop
Didn't Superman laugh off Orion's Astro Force blast? Didn't the Surfer absolutely humiliate Orion during a CrossOver event?

Superman was one-shotted by af the first time he met orion....

Also that was a cross-over. In the same one series superman laughed off Reed's adamantium-cutting laser and was transformed into Galactus' new herald and no-sold everything anyone threw at him. Cross-overs shouldn't really count for much imo.

Superman -
Probably the most rounded character of all. He has the physical stats, the speed, and the energy expenditure to compete with just about everyone.

Weakness:
He lacks the exotic energy manipulation feats that the others on my list have. I don't count his "psychic martial art".

Thor -
Biggest combination of physical stats and exotic magical manipulation. He can take a beating, give a beating, or use magic to skip the entire fight.

Weakness:
For all his abilities, he lacks the speed to counter or be extremely useful against all opponents.

Silver Surfer -
He is the guy with the most exotic abilities of all - he can basically manipulate the Power Cosmic to do anything he wants.

Weakness:
He's a better long range fighter than a top tier brute, physical stats being his one weak point.

Wildcard:

Green Lantern -
Take your pick of which one, but they do wield the most powerful weapon in the universe. If it's a Green Lantern title, they crap on every single Earth based hero, including Superman. If it's a JLA title, depends on the writer, but they are the most versatile gun they have. I've always been a fan of theirs, so my opinion may be biased, but I feel that the physical representation of their willpower gives them the exotic abilities akin to Surfer and upgrades their physical/speed stats to Superman level.

Weakness:
Entire ability is based on energy. That has been exploited in the past.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
no. superman was actually knocked out once by the astro force. plus when they first met, orion stated that he had to hold back, because he feared he would have killed supes.
It was a surprise shot which stunned superman. He has shrugged off astro force in DONG and here
Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman takes a surprise attack from astro-force by Orion and shrugs it off
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/MartianManhunterv209-06.jpg

IMO, Genis is beyond herald level. Trans, at least.

I don't think Superman is as great as people make him out to be. I would give top slots to characters like Thor, Genis, Silver Surfer, and maybe classic Warlock. I can't justify picking Superman above any of these guys in my mind.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't think Superman is as great as people make him out to be. I would give top slots to characters like Thor, Genis, Silver Surfer, and maybe classic Warlock. I can't justify picking Superman above any of these guys in my mind.

This.

Surfer's THE herald. If anyone outclasses him they are most likely above herald. If not him it's gotta go to Thor. On a side note how would you guys define a herald level character?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Maxima, Wonder Woman (full gear pre-new 52), Sersi, Sinestro, and Swamp thing

Yea, Wonder Woman's pretty flexible. I mean, people don't think of her as such since she doesn't have a 'do what I think' power set like GLs, but she's got high HtH, magic cut-anything weapons, magic block-all defense, the lasso which has mind and restraining hax, and Zeus's lightning zap. That's a lot of strong abilities.


Maxima's Maxima, TP and TK and physical stats all at high level is always great.

Sersi's transmutation is pretty uber.


Swamp Thing is I think above herald.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
1.) Superman.
2.) Thor.
3.) Silver Surfer.

Pretty much; those are consistently seen as the "big 3" imo.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't think Superman is as great as people make him out to be. I would give top slots to characters like Thor, Genis, Silver Surfer, and maybe classic Warlock. I can't justify picking Superman above any of these guys in my mind.

His feats? shrug

Originally posted by JayDaDon
Surfer's THE herald. If anyone outclasses him they are most likely above herald. If not him it's gotta go to Thor. On a side note how would you guys define a herald level character?


Well that's tricky. Generally speaking the Silver Surfer, Superman, and Thor are at base levels (i.e. no amplification by use of outside aid) High Heralds. Superman can go beyond High Herald level from basking in the sun for prolonged periods of time, as can the Surfer, while Thor can use armors or attain a state of mind called Warriors Madness, which is basically another way of saying berserk.

What makes it tricky is that there are other characters that fit well into the High Herald class although not being as versatile. This is mainly because they can hang with the top boys and girls in a fight. Black Adam, Doomsday, Juggernaut, Lobo, Wonder Woman, and several others are all examples of High Heralds that can not shoot laser beams, negate mystical forces, or transmute matter. Why? Because if any of them fought the more versatile High Heralds on any given day, they could win. You simply have to be familiar with a given characters performance in comparison to the big boys and girls, and this will give you a rough idea on how to classify them, in terms of power ratings.

Originally posted by Stoic
Well that's tricky. Generally speaking the Silver Surfer, Superman, and Thor are at base levels (i.e. no amplification by use of outside aid) High Heralds. Superman can go beyond High Herald level from basking in the sun for prolonged periods of time, as can the Surfer, while Thor can use armors or attain a state of mind called Warriors Madness, which is basically another way of saying berserk.

What makes it tricky is that there are other characters that fit well into the High Herald class although not being as versatile. This is mainly because they can hang with the top boys and girls in a fight. Black Adam, Doomsday, Juggernaut, Lobo, Wonder Woman, and several others are all examples of High Heralds that can not shoot laser beams, negate mystical forces, or transmute matter. Why? Because if any of them fought the more versatile High Heralds on any given day, they could win. You simply have to be familiar with a given characters performance in comparison to the big boys and girls, and this will give you a rough idea on how to classify them, in terms of power ratings.

Not bad. I disagree with certain things, but for the most part yeah. And imo tier classifications aren't anywhere near as difficult to come up with as some make it out to be. What mucks it up for the most part are people arguing over where their favs end up.

Originally posted by dmills
Not bad. I disagree with certain things, but for the most part yeah. And imo tier classifications aren't anywhere near as difficult to come up with as some make it out to be. What mucks it up for the most part are people arguing over where their favs end up.

Seconded.

Ok so from what I gather these are the top 20. Remember We are thinking how combat effective they are, in a general sense against all opposition.
And there is a method to my madness. Round up the history of each character, to determine a win/lose ratio, and the 5 most noticeable wins.

The win lose ratio will be determine by how they have fared against each other.

Superman
Thor
Silver Surfer
Hulk
Sentry
Kyle
Sinestro
Hal
Cyborg Superman
Orion
Barry
Wally
Photon
Zemo
Shaman X-Man
Majestic
Captain Atom
Nova Prime
Quasar
Hulk

Originally posted by "Id"
Ok so from what I gather these are the top 20. Remember We are thinking how combat effective they are, in a general sense against all opposition.
And there is a method to my madness. Round up the history of each character, to determine a win/lose ratio, and the 5 most noticeable wins.

The win lose ratio will be determine by how they have fared against each other.

Superman
Thor
Silver Surfer
Hulk
Sentry
Kyle
Sinestro
Hal
Cyborg Superman
Orion
Barry
Wally
Photon
Zemo
Shaman X-Man
Majestic
Captain Atom
Nova Prime
Quasar
Hulk

u have two hulks on here...take one out and replace him with diana with all her gear

u also have a bunch of lanterns two flashes...he's my list suggestion

Superman
Thor
Silver Surfer
Hulk
Sentry
Hal
Cyborg Superman
Orion
Barry
Photon
Zemo...two stones
Shaman X-Man
Majestic
Captain Atom
Nova Prime
Quasar
Wonder Woman (all gear)
Adam Warlock
Martian Manhunter
Black Adam/Captain Marvel
Maxima

Hulk belongs in trans+ tier.

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk belongs in trans+ tier.


no

Originally posted by Sin I AM
no don't feed the monster.

Originally posted by dmills
Not bad. I disagree with certain things, but for the most part yeah. And imo tier classifications aren't anywhere near as difficult to come up with as some make it out to be. What mucks it up for the most part are people arguing over where their favs end up.

This is far from the only problem with classification. Simply put, anything resembling definitive is impossible. At best, it's a rough gauge for those who are new to comics. Very knowledgeable fans could never come to a consensus. Any ranking system has a very limited capacity at informing more nuanced vs. discussion.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
no

Hulk in a calm state punching someone, causing planetary destruction.

Trans+.


http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10172977_The_Incredible_Hulk_03_005.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10172985_The_Incredible_Hulk_03_007.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10172990_The_Incredible_Hulk_03_008.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10172996_The_Incredible_Hulk_03_009.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10173003_The_Incredible_Hulk_03_010.jpg

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10173009_The_Incredible_Hulk_03_011.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10173017_The_Incredible_Hulk_03_012.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10173023_The_Incredible_Hulk_03_013.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10173029_The_Incredible_Hulk_03_014.jpg

What are we looking at there carver? That he created some earthquake-level shocks, beat up some Ninja Turtle villains, and waded through lava? Am I missing anything? Heralds have accidentally destroyed planets without directly targeting them and have bathed in stars. That's a good feat, Hulk's a top hero, but it's you're own definition of Trans+ if you think that's what it means. Trans level beings have destroyed solar systems and stars.

Originally posted by Digi
What are we looking at there carver? That he created some earthquake-level shocks, beat up some Ninja Turtle villains, and waded through lava? Am I missing anything? Heralds have accidentally destroyed planets without directly targeting them and have bathed in stars. That's a good feat, but it's you're own definition of Trans+ if you think that's what it means.

Also, rage takes many forms, and Hulk's various incarnations don't always feed off his anger the same way. I'm not sure you can say he was calm.

Ninjas Turtles?

I posted that as a punching power ft for a calm Hulk and to show that he is still at his WBH levels. Physically, you can't find many Heralds leveling planets with blows. Especially modern day comics.

Originally posted by carver9
Ninjas Turtles?

I posted that as a punching power ft for a calm Hulk and to show that he is still at his WBH levels. Physically, you can't find many Heralds leveling planets with blows. Especially modern day comics.

Originally posted by Digi
That's a good feat, Hulk's a top hero, but it's you're own definition of Trans+ if you think that's what it means. Trans level beings have destroyed solar systems and stars.

I'd also point out that while you have a point about "modern" comics, all but a few of the feats I reference from Heralds and Trans have not been retconned. If you want to think he's Trans, go ahead. When we actually had a list here on KMC (mercifully, we don't anymore) Trans meant swallowing stars, destroying solar systems, and wrecking entire teams of herald level characters. If Hulk is the current definition, it has a very different meaning and has basically lost any descriptive value it may have once had.

Also, pure destructive power isn't everything. People rate Surfer and others above him because he can do more overall, not because he always has more destructive power.

Originally posted by Digi
I'd also point out that while you have a point about "modern" comics, all but a few of the feats I reference from Heralds and Trans have not been retconned. If you want to think he's Trans, go ahead. When we actually had a list here on KMC (mercifully, we don't anymore) Trans meant swallowing stars, destroying solar systems, and wrecking entire teams of herald level characters. If Hulk is the current definition, it has a very different meaning.

It depends on how you look at it though. In some cases, people depict trans, high heralds, and skyfathers based on their versatility and raw power, some view it as capabilities, what a character can accomplish in a fight or basically the raw power they bring to the table. If versatility had anything to do with a tier, then people like Monarch, Prime, and Doomsday wouldn't be high trans to low skyfathers. Raw power is a indication as well and Hulk meets the qualification of being trans plus since he basically have the fts putting him in this tier.

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk in a calm state punching someone, causing planetary destruction.

Trans+.


carver that is not a trans level feat, your reaching

Originally posted by Sin I AM
carver that is not a trans level feat, your reaching

Why isn't it?

Originally posted by -Pr-
His feats? shrug
He doesn't have the versatility to compete with any of those four imo. The only one I may give him the win over is Warlock because he has occasionally been overwhelmed by physically strong characters.

Originally posted by Digi
What are we looking at there carver? That he created some earthquake planetary-level shocks all across Earth, beat up some Ninja Turtle villains, and waded through lava? Am I missing anything? Heralds have accidentally destroyed planets without directly targeting them and have bathed in stars. That's a good feat, Hulk's a top hero, but it's you're own definition of Trans+ if you think that's what it means. Trans level beings have destroyed solar systems and stars. Fixed for accuracy.

imo because there is no basis for this but i do believe i hold the general concensus

in order to be a trans level character u have to he at LEAST a galactic level threat and or manipulate energy/ destroy matter on that scale

would u really place hulk in a class with Amazo or classic strange?...

Originally posted by Sin I AM
would u really place hulk in a class with Amazo or classic strange?...

Not if I wanted to live with myself.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
imo because there is no basis for this but i do believe i hold the general concensus

in order to be a trans level character u have to he at LEAST a galactic level threat and or manipulate energy/ destroy matter on that scale

would u really place hulk in a class with Amazo or classic strange?...


Like I've said before, there are people in the trans tier thats never accomplished any of that outside of tech. Let's not go there because we would have to depower a great deal of people. Hell, Amazo never accomplished these types of fts and using his average showings, he shouldn't be at the tier he is at on KMC...Amazo is where he is at because of his powers and versatility, not because of what he has accomplished.

I think a trans level character slot should be reserved for people who can easily defeat teams of high heralds singlehandedly. Doomsday, SBP, Amazo and Strange fit this classification as they have a history of doing so. They should demonstrate their clear superiority to high heralds by completely owning them without trouble.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I think a trans level character slot should be reserved for people who can easily defeat teams of high heralds singlehandedly. Doomsday, SBP, Amazo and Strange fit this classification as they have a history of doing so. They should demonstrate their clear superiority to high heralds by completely owning them without trouble.

Black Adam, Despero, Hulk (has done this on numerous of occasions), Magneto...all of these people have done this as well. The tier setup isn't organized imo.

What team of high heralds has Hulk easily beaten down all at once?

Originally posted by carver9
Like I've said before, there are people in the trans tier thats never accomplished any of that outside of tech. Let's not go there because we would have to depower a great deal of people. Hell, Amazo never accomplished these types of fts and using his average showings, he shouldn't be at the tier he is at on KMC...Amazo is where he is at because of his powers and versatility, not because of what he has accomplished.



did u read my post....galactic level threat, or manipulate/destroy matter/energy on that scale

Originally posted by carver9
Black Adam, Despero, Hulk (has done this on numerous of occasions), Magneto...all of these people have done this as well. The tier setup isn't organized imo.
What teams of high heralds have Magneto and Hulk owned without trouble? If they easily and consistently beat teams of top tiers, then yes by all means put them in trans.

Originally posted by Digi
This is far from the only problem with classification. Simply put, anything resembling definitive is impossible. At best, it's a rough gauge for those who are new to comics. Very knowledgeable fans could never come to a consensus. Any ranking system has a very limited capacity at informing more nuanced vs. discussion.

No need to shoot for definitive as definitive implies closed canon, be all end all. Imo tiers in and of themselves are merely a tool to gauge characters in relation to one another based on feats, showings et al. It's up to the posters to to make the case as to why one character beats another in public debate. Its all about what you can prove, and it always balances out in the end as far as I can tell.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Not if I wanted to live with myself.


my sentiments exactly.

Now dont get me wrong, im a huge hulk fan, and love the push he's been getting as earths strongest mortal, but at the end of the day if he needed to be put down and his friends was serious about doing it there are tons of people on marvel earth who could take him out...

imo amazo/strange/onslaught/ is a trans tier character because he can defeat a non jobbing


superman
wonder woman
a compatant gl
aquaman
martian manhunter
and a flash for the majorit. Magneto cant do this, neither can hulk.

to me the epitome of subskyfather is King Thor...not RKT, King Thor. Everything he was able to do and accomplished prior to mastery over the runes set the example for me

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
What team of high heralds has Hulk easily beaten down all at once?

He fought the Avengers on more than one occasion and once, he was working them while dying. The latest Hulk...it was stated that no team on Earth can stand up to him which lead to the Avengers using Skaar as a tool since he was Hulks son.

Superman
Thor
Silver Surfer
Hulk
Sentry
Kyle
Sinestro
Hal
Cyborg Superman
Orion
Barry
Wally
Photon
Zemo
Shaman X-Man
Majestic
Captain Atom
Nova Prime
Quasar
Lobo

Originally posted by carver9
He fought the Avengers on more than one occasion and once, he was working them while dying. The latest Hulk...it was stated that no team on Earth can stand up to him which lead to the Avengers using Skaar as a tool since he was Hulks son.

So which high heralds, as in more than one, did Hulk effortlessly beat and has done so consistently?

Originally posted by carver9
He fought the Avengers on more than one occasion and once, he was working them while dying. The latest Hulk...it was stated that no team on Earth can stand up to him which lead to the Avengers using Skaar as a tool since he was Hulks son.
OK, but, what was their line up? I'm talking about teams of high heralds not one powerhouse and a couple of middle of the road heroes. If the line up was like, Thor, Hercules and Quasar then it could qualify. If we're talking, Iron man, Captain America and the Wasp, then, not so much.

Originally posted by King Kandy
What teams of high heralds have Magneto and Hulk owned without trouble? If they easily and consistently beat teams of top tiers, then yes by all means put them in trans.

So Black Adam is trans tier?

the avengers have no high herald level beings on there team!!! wtf carver

Originally posted by carver9
So Black Adam is trans tier?
I think he could qualify. If he really overpowers top tiers left and right, then I suppose he should be

Originally posted by carver9
So Black Adam is trans tier?

No, because he can and has been stalemated by other heralds (ie. Captain Marvel) and that is the consistent normal portrayal of him.

Originally posted by carver9
He fought the Avengers on more than one occasion and once, he was working them while dying. The latest Hulk...it was stated that no team on Earth can stand up to him which lead to the Avengers using Skaar as a tool since he was Hulks son.

IMO, Hulk could never be a herald level being simply because he can't fly or teleport. ANY version of Hulk can easily be defeated by ANY herald level being by bfr.

Glads could have just uppercutted or thrown him into space if he wanted to.

You know this, that's why nearly every thread you or a Hulk fan opens states NO BFR.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
So which high heralds, as in more than one, did Hulk effortlessly beat and has done so consistently?

There isn't a team of high Heralds that exist in Marvel minus the Annihilators.

Hulk has walked through high Heralds though. He outright stomped Genis. He destroyed Gladiator, Thor was on the other end of the table when it was stated that the entire Avenger line up doesn't stand a chance against Hulk. He ran through Herc...withstood an assault from an amped Strange and then beat the hell out of him. Overpowered an amped Onslaught that was at his physical peak of holding back earth defense. Current Hulk is much more than the Hulk that performed these fts and as stated numerous of Times, no force on Earth stands a chance against him. People thinking twice of facing him is proof of his power.

Originally posted by h1a8
IMO, Hulk could never be a herald level being simply because he can't fly or teleport. ANY version of Hulk can easily be defeated by ANY herald level being by bfr.

Glads could have just uppercutted or thrown him into space if he wanted to.

You know this, that's why nearly every thread you or a Hulk fan opens states NO BFR.

So what tier is Doomsday?

Originally posted by carver9
There isn't a team of high Heralds that exist in Marvel minus the Annihilators.

Hulk has walked through high Heralds though. He outright stomped Genis. He destroyed Gladiator, Thor was on the other end of the table when it was stated that the entire Avenger line up doesn't stand a chance against Hulk. He ran through Herc...withstood an assault from an amped Strange and then beat the hell out of him. Overpowered an amped Onslaught that was at his physical peak of holding back earth defense. Current Hulk is much more than the Hulk that performed these fts and as stated numerous of Times, no force on Earth stands a chance against him. People thinking twice of facing him is proof of his power.

So, Hulk has never steamrolled a team of High Heralds on a consistent basis with any semblance of ease.

Gotcha.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
So, Hulk has never steamrolled a team of High Heralds on a consistent basis with any semblance of ease.

Gotcha.

It depends on how you look at it. Writers think the XMen is a elite team...they also think of the avengers as a elite team. From our eyes, no, but Hulk has walked through teams on a consistent basis.

Originally posted by carver9
It depends on how you look at it. Writers think the XMen is a elite team...they also think of the avengers as a elite team.
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5125/marvelpreviews101002.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
So what tier is Doomsday?

Doomsday has the speed to prevent from being thrown or uppercutted into space before he defeats the high herald. That is why Flash is at least herald level too.

Originally posted by "Id"
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5125/marvelpreviews101002.jpg since loeb isn't on those titles, it's up to iron man to prevent a total mutant stompage.

Originally posted by carver9
There isn't a team of high Heralds that exist in Marvel minus the Annihilators.

Hulk has walked through high Heralds though. He outright stomped Genis. He destroyed Gladiator, Thor was on the other end of the table when it was stated that the entire Avenger line up doesn't stand a chance against Hulk. He ran through Herc...withstood an assault from an amped Strange and then beat the hell out of him. Overpowered an amped Onslaught that was at his physical peak of holding back earth defense. Current Hulk is much more than the Hulk that performed these fts and as stated numerous of Times, no force on Earth stands a chance against him. People thinking twice of facing him is proof of his power.
The most powerful heroes do not even live on Earth. Do you think Hulk could take on a team like that which went against PG Thor, (Warlock, Strange, Surfer, Infinity Watch)? Could he deal with the annihilators? How about the lineup of heralds that did battle with Tyrant; could Hulk deal with them? Feats of that caliber might qualify him for trans.

Originally posted by h1a8
Doomsday has the speed to prevent from being thrown or uppercutted into space before he defeats the high herald. That is why Flash is at least herald level too.

Lol...you are not making sense. As for Hulk...he was delivering punches that earth heroes was incapable of walking through. The shockwaves was forcing everyone back and creating planetary shockwaves.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2126/onslaught1a2ii.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3433/onslaught1b6nt.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5554/onslaught1c7fw.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3563/onslaught1d0lm.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
It depends on how you look at it. Writers think the XMen is a elite team...they also think of the avengers as a elite team. From our eyes, no, but Hulk has walked through teams on a consistent basis.
lol, I am sorry... beating the X-Men is nothing like beating a team of high heralds regardless of how "elite" they are... if he faced down mutants like say, Vulcan, Magneto and Phoenix, then maybe you would have a point, as is most line ups of the X-men are not close to the qualifier I am using here... I mean he really needs to trounce the upper echelons of Marvel not some mid tiers.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The most powerful heroes do not even live on Earth. Do you think Hulk could take on a team like that which went against PG Thor, (Warlock, Strange, Surfer, Infinity Watch)? Could he deal with the annihilators? How about the lineup of heralds that did battle with Tyrant; could Hulk deal with them? Feats of that caliber might qualify him for trans.

I know they don't live on Earth and people like Doomsday or Adam can't beat the Annihilators or even stand a chance against them. The Worthys took on a group of Heralds that wouldn't stand a prayer against WBH. Tyrant is above trans tier. Hulk has fts that puts him in or above trans.

Originally posted by King Kandy
lol, I am sorry... beating the X-Men is nothing like beating a team of high heralds regardless of how "elite" they are... if he faced down mutants like say, Vulcan, Magneto and Phoenix, then maybe you would have a point, as is most line ups of the X-men are not close to the qualifier I am using here... I mean he really needs to trounce the upper echelons of Marvel not some mid tiers.

You missed my point.

Originally posted by carver9
I know they don't live on Earth and people like Doomsday or Adam can't beat the Annihilators or even stand a chance against them. The Worthys took on a group of Heralds that wouldn't stand a prayer against WBH. Tyrant is above trans tier. Hulk has fts that puts him in or above trans.
Well if Doomsday and Adam can't put in at least admirable showings against lineups like the Annihilators, then their trans status may be in doubt. I think characters like Amazo and Classic Strange could battle the Annihilators.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well if Doomsday and Adam can't put in at least admirable showings against lineups like the Annihilators, then their trans status may be in doubt. I think characters like Amazo and Classic Strange could battle the Annihilators.

I think they can as well and by the way, Classic Strange has had hard Times fighting Hulk and have a lost against him as well. Amazo isn't that great to me unless you are basing things off of his power level instead of his showings.

Originally posted by carver9
I think they can as well and by the way, Classic Strange has had hard Times fighting Hulk and have a lost against him as well. Amazo isn't that great to me unless you are basing things off of his power level instead of his showings.
There are way more cases of Strange easily dismissing Hulk than the reverse. The Hulk would definitely fall against the Annihilators. Don't you agree?

Originally posted by King Kandy
There are way more cases of Strange easily dismissing Hulk than the reverse. The Hulk would definitely fall against the Annihilators. Don't you agree?

Yes since I think it takes a high end skyfather to stop a team of that caliber.

Originally posted by King Kandy
There are way more cases of Strange easily dismissing Hulk than the reverse. The Hulk would definitely fall against the Annihilators. Don't you agree?


Strange's durability, strength, constitution, and speed levels leads me to think that the Annihilator's would roast him if they were out to kill him. Just my opinion though.

Originally posted by carver9
Yes since I think it takes a high end skyfather to stop a team of that caliber.
I don't. Let's look at some of the people you thought were questionable. Monarch definitely would qualify as he could take on legions of high heralds. Doomsday also has beaten multiple high heralds. Amazo can do it similarly, as could classic Thanos. Meanwhile the Hulk has a clear lack of any comparable feats.

Originally posted by Stoic
Strange's durability, strength, constitution, and speed levels leads me to think that the Annihilator's would roast him if they were out to kill him. Just my opinion though.

If Doc was out to kill he would drain BRB. After that the team would be in serious trouble. No way the Annihilators would roast him in this situation.

Originally posted by Sundipped
If Doc was out to kill he would drain BRB. After that the team would be in serious trouble. No way the Annihilators would roast him in this situation.


Strange has typical human reaction speeds, Gladiator is so far above human that it's unreal. Do you think that you may be selling this team short with everything considered?

wonder woman!!!

Originally posted by psycho gundam
since loeb isn't on those titles, it's up to iron man to prevent a total mutant stompage.
Any team that holds both Captain America, and Wolverine on the same team....the opposing team must be prepared ass whopping of a life time.

I am talking Overeem vs Lesnar type of dominance.

Originally posted by "Id"
Any team that holds both Captain America, and Wolverine on the same team....the opposing team must be prepared ass whopping of a life time.

I am talking Overeem vs Lesnar type of dominance.


Who won that fight? They fought?

Originally posted by King Kandy
He doesn't have the versatility to compete with any of those four imo. The only one I may give him the win over is Warlock because he has occasionally been overwhelmed by physically strong characters.

Versatility =/= power, though, and he's only relatively un-versatile. It's not as if it's hindered him much before.

--

Also, lol @ the definition of trans for Hulk. Superman has steamrolled teams of heralds (including the JLA), but we don't put him at trans level do we? No.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...you are not making sense. As for Hulk...he was delivering punches that earth heroes was incapable of walking through. The shockwaves was forcing everyone back and creating planetary shockwaves.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2126/onslaught1a2ii.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3433/onslaught1b6nt.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5554/onslaught1c7fw.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3563/onslaught1d0lm.jpg

Say you wanted to bfr me yet I had a great deal of speed and relentlessness.
Would it be easy?

Now say you are a lot faster than me. Would it be easy?


Lastly, I don't care if Hulk can hit with punches that can disintegrate any herald on contact. He still can be easily beat by bfr and thus can never be considered a herald level being. Do you like apples? Well I got Hulk's number, how do you like those apples?herald level being. Do you like apples?

Originally posted by h1a8
Say you wanted to bfr me yet I had a great deal of speed and relentlessness.
Would it be easy?

Now say you are a lot faster than me. Would it be easy?


Lastly, I don't care if Hulk can hit with punches that can disintegrate any herald on contact. He still can be easily beat by bfr and thus can never be considered a herald level being. Do you like apples?

Its hard even getting Hulk off of his ft let alone bfring him. It's not a easy task at all. It's not easy to bfr Doomsday either. They are both physical power house.

Doomsday doesn't have a single speed ft under his belt for you to announce that he can prevent someone from bfring him. Show me a speed ft from Doomsday outside of something Hulk has done.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Versatility =/= power, though, and he's only relatively un-versatile. It's not as if it's hindered him much before.

--

Also, lol @ the definition of trans for Hulk. Superman has steamrolled teams of heralds (including the JLA), but we don't put him at trans level do we? No.

That wasn't one of the reasons I put Hulk at the tier he is at. Fighting teams isn't enough imo since almost everyone and their grandmoma has done it.

Originally posted by carver9
That wasn't one of the reasons I put Hulk at the tier he is at. Fighting teams isn't enough imo since almost everyone and their grandmoma has done it.

and yet you've brought it up more than once, or gone with the "heralds unable to affect hulk" argument even though, like you said, it's been done.

though not nearly as much as you claim.

Originally posted by -Pr-
and yet you've brought it up more than once, or gone with the "heralds unable to affect hulk" argument even though, like you said, it's been done.

though not nearly as much as you claim.

I put Hulk in a tier above most due to the people I think he could beat in a fight and what it would take to drop him (along with how hard he hits). It's not because he has done good against team because that has always been consistent with the character.

Saying he's trans is, tbh, laughable, when you won't people with comparable (or superior) feats the same benefit of the doubt.

and it's in general laughable too.

My vote goes to Superman in terms of versatility, and if I were a group leader, and had to pick one of the obvious elite top tiers, it would be him. If I had to choose which character I could be up to that level, it would also be him.

1. He looks like a normal human.

2. He's not the strongest, but he's up there.

3. His speed. There are faster characters but he's fast enough.

4. He's tough

5. He's super smart

6. He can fly very fast

7. His vision powers are amazing

8. All around, none of the other Heralds can do as much as he can.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Saying he's trans is, tbh, laughable, when you won't people with comparable (or superior) feats the same benefit of the doubt.

and it's in general laughable too.

It shouldn't be laughable since people like HP Doomsday is a high trans and Current Hulk is FAR stronger than him. The only thing Hulk is missing is versatility and that shouldn't be something that should be used to put someone in a certain tier.

Originally posted by Stoic
My vote goes to Superman in terms of versatility, and if I were a group leader, and had to pick one of the obvious elite top tiers, it would be him. If I had to choose which character I could be up to that level, it would also be him.

1. He looks like a normal human.

2. He's not the strongest, but he's up there.

3. His speed. There are faster characters but he's fast enough.

4. He's tough

5. He's super smart

6. He can fly very fast

7. His vision powers are amazing

8. All around, none of the other Heralds can do as much as he can.

This could be said about a lot of characters. Sentry, Gladiator, Hyperion, Mimic...etc, etc.

Originally posted by Stoic
My vote goes to Superman in terms of versatility, and if I were a group leader, and had to pick one of the obvious elite top tiers, it would be him. If I had to choose which character I could be up to that level, it would also be him.

1. He looks like a normal human.

2. He's not the strongest, but he's up there.

3. His speed. There are faster characters but he's fast enough.

4. He's tough

5. He's super smart

6. He can fly very fast

7. His vision powers are amazing

8. All around, none of the other Heralds can do as much as he can.





lol

Originally posted by carver9
This could be said about a lot of characters. Sentry, Gladiator, Hyperion, Mimic...etc, etc.


Yeah but they aren't Super Duper Smart.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
lol


You know it's true.

Originally posted by carver9
It shouldn't be laughable since people like HP Doomsday is a high trans and Current Hulk is FAR stronger than him. The only thing Hulk is missing is versatility and that shouldn't be something that should be used to put someone in a certain tier.

Don't pretend you know anything about HP Doomsday

Originally posted by carver9
This could be said about a lot of characters. Sentry, Gladiator, Hyperion, Mimic...etc, etc.

They don't do it as impressively as Superman does, though, which is the point.

Originally posted by Stoic
Yeah but they aren't Super Duper Smart.




You know it's true.


your reasoning is laughable

Originally posted by Sin I AM
your reasoning is laughable

Likely because it runs contrary to your reasoning? Doesn't make it laughable, it just makes it my opinion.

Originally posted by carver9
Its hard even getting Hulk off of his ft let alone bfring him. It's not a easy task at all. It's not easy to bfr Doomsday either. They are both physical power house.

Doomsday doesn't have a single speed ft under his belt for you to announce that he can prevent someone from bfring him. Show me a speed ft from Doomsday outside of something Hulk has done.

Hulk weighs less than a ton. Do the math.

Also, DD has lots of speed feats. Feats includes, hitting the entire JL simultaneously (including Superman) and having Superman complain about his speed, blitzing DS from a mile away before DS can turn around (In one panel DD was a mile away in the next panel he was right up on DS), etc.

Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk weighs less than a ton. Do the math.

Also, DD has lots of speed feats. Feats includes, hitting the entire JL simultaneously (including Superman) and having Superman complain about his speed, blitzing DS from a mile away before DS can turn around (In one panel DD was a mile away in the next panel he was right up on DS), etc.

Hulk has been hit by continuous blast that had enough power to knock planets off course, hit by Thor, hit by Onslaught, punched and hit by a team of Avengers, and the list goes on...he either powers through it or stands his ground. His strength doesn't allow people to simply bfr him.

Lol at those speed fts. Doomsday jumped into a group of clogged up JLA members and he has never been to fast for Superman.

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk has been hit by continuous blast that had enough power to knock planets off course, hit by Thor, hit by Onslaught, punched and hit by a team of Avengers, and the list goes on...he either powers through it or stands his ground. His strength doesn't allow people to simply bfr him.

Lol at those speed fts. Doomsday jumped into a group of clogged up JLA members and he has never been to fast for Superman.

An uppercut is an upward hit. There's nothing to brace against like being hit frontal wise. Also being picked up and thrown upward is similar. Spider-man can even lift Hulk upwards with no problem.

DS has hella reflexes (probably ftl ones) yet he couldn't turn around to engage the incoming DD. Superman never has complained about anyone's speed (other than flash or zoom) in his entire life. DD popped him with ALL of the other JL before they can respond. How in the hell do you hit multiple people standing at different positions feet away all at the same time, and one member is Superman who complained of your speed right after the hit?

Originally posted by carver9
Its hard even getting Hulk off of his ft let alone bfring him. It's not a easy task at all. It's not easy to bfr Doomsday either. They are both physical power house.

Doomsday doesn't have a single speed ft under his belt for you to announce that he can prevent someone from bfring him. Show me a speed ft from Doomsday outside of something Hulk has done.

He bypassed the Olympian's 'divine grace and trounced him, when even WW couldn't.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/6339454/Outsiders_v4_037015.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/6339467/Outsiders_v4_037016.jpg.html credit to guy

It was also said that he was 'faster than the flash by booster gold, just to establish the character's speed.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/th_dos13.jpg http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/th_dos14.jpg Scans are galan's.

Not that speed is the determining factor. DD is pretty fast though. Just to clear that up with a few examples.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Versatility =/= power, though, and he's only relatively un-versatile. It's not as if it's hindered him much before.

--

Also, lol @ the definition of trans for Hulk. Superman has steamrolled teams of heralds (including the JLA), but we don't put him at trans level do we? No.
I agree, versatility =/= power. However, all of the people I mentioned have both power and versatility in excess. Superman is very limited compared to them. Most of them could easily win through energy manipulation. It is not like compared to characters like Thor and SS Superman has a big power edge any way.

^Winning=/=power. Flash would win against thor but he isn't more powerful. IMO superman edges out thor and get edged out by surfer. Genis is trans IMO.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I agree, versatility =/= power. However, all of the people I mentioned have both power and versatility in excess. Superman is very limited compared to them. Most of them could easily win through energy manipulation. It is not like compared to characters like Thor and SS Superman has a big power edge any way.

I disagree, but that's me.

Originally posted by carver9
It shouldn't be laughable since people like HP Doomsday is a high trans and Current Hulk is FAR stronger than him. The only thing Hulk is missing is versatility and that shouldn't be something that should be used to put someone in a certain tier.

That's the thing about HP DD, he's pretty much whatever he has to be at the moment. If he needs to be tough enough to withstand Omega beams, he will be, if he needs to grab an intangible energy being and kill him, he will. If he needs to match hulk blow for blow, he'll do that too. It's not dynamic power or poor writing, or even PIS, it's simply the character's power. He adapts. So that's why he's in the trans-tier, because he can match whatever opponent that comes his way barring ridiculous circumstances.

In fact, the only way to consistently (lol) kill the character is with entropy-- arguably the most destructive form of energy in the DC universe. This happened twice. Once in HP, when the only way to kill him was to send him to the beginning of time, seconds before the big bang and let entropy incinerate him, the second was done by Imperiex, the big bang and entropy incarnate who one-shotted him with a blast capable of killing him.

The point is that he has gone through all of these things under his own power. He busts teams consistently (even before HP), adapts to anything, and has only been truly 'killed' by the big bang itself. When compared with HP DD, the hulk simply doesn't have consistent feats like this. HP DD does, and quite frankly, thats why he's in the trans-tier.

So it isn't his speed, strength, durability, or versatility. It's all of those put together on a level that allows him to do things that other heralds are not capable of efficiently defending against or even performing themselves. In other words, his mid-range feats make him herald+, which is another way of saying trans.... Hulk busted a planet with a lot of powerful players on it, thor cracked exitar's dome, and superman sang reality back to normal-- but they're all heralds, because these feats are not the 'norm' for them. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Originally posted by abhilegend
^Winning=/=power. Flash would win against thor but he isn't more powerful. IMO superman edges out thor and get edged out by surfer. Genis is trans IMO.
I would not object to having Genis as trans. He is a good example of someone who is simply beyond the heralds. I can't think of a single high herald who could defeat him.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I would not object to having Genis as trans. He is a good example of someone who is simply beyond the heralds. I can't think of a single high herald who could defeat him.

I completely agree. I didn't know that he wasn't on the trans list.

Originally posted by Sirius77
That's the thing about HP DD, he's pretty much whatever he has to be at the moment. If he needs to be tough enough to withstand Omega beams, he will be, if he needs to grab an intangible energy being and kill him, he will. If he needs to match hulk blow for blow, he'll do that too. It's not dynamic power or poor writing, or even PIS, it's simply the character's power. He adapts. So that's why he's in the trans-tier, because he can match whatever opponent that comes his way barring ridiculous circumstances.

In fact, the only way to consistently (lol) kill the character is with entropy-- arguably the most destructive form of energy in the DC universe. This happened twice. Once in HP, when the only way to kill him was to send him to the beginning of time, seconds before the big bang and let entropy incinerate him, the second was done by Imperiex, the big bang and entropy incarnate who one-shotted him with a blast capable of killing him.

The point is that he has gone through all of these things under his own power. He busts teams consistently (even before HP), adapts to anything, and has only been truly 'killed' by the big bang itself. When compared with HP DD, the hulk simply doesn't have consistent feats like this. HP DD does, and quite frankly, thats why he's in the trans-tier.

So it isn't his speed, strength, durability, or versatility. It's all of those put together on a level that allows him to do things that other heralds are not capable of efficiently defending against or even performing themselves. In other words, his mid-range feats make him herald+, which is another way of saying trans.... Hulk busted a planet with a lot of powerful players on it, thor cracked exitar's dome, and superman sang reality back to normal-- but they're all heralds, because these feats are not the 'norm' for them. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Why didnt Doomsday bypass a blast from Imperiex that turned him to a skeleton or prevent KC Superman and main stream Superman from one shotting him?

Originally posted by Sirius77
I completely agree. I didn't know that he wasn't on the trans list. Insane Genis I'd probably place higher..

By the way, I would put Thor above any herald.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Insane Genis I'd probably place higher..
You know he got a power upgrade in his later incarnations.