Lord Mar-vell vs Molecule Man

OneDumbG0

^ You're overgeneralizing his fights by leaving out context and leaving out other fights.

Owen apparently suffered that "can't control organic molecules" limitation against Klaw (said inability obviously no longer applies).

Owen was mind-controlled by the Puppet Master when he fought Aron and, again, suffered that organic molecules limitation (which again, no longer applies). Lord Mar-Vell hasn't demonstrated the ability to generate a complete void surrounding Owen anyway (which is how Aron won). Until he does, he doesn't win that way anyway.

Sentry lost three times by being straight-up obliterated before getting the hang of his own matter manipulation abilities and straight-up overpowering Owen's matter manipulation. Lord Mar-Vell hasn't demonstrated matter manipulation that even comes close to approaching what Owen displayed during that Dark Avengers arc. Until he does, he doesn't win that way either.

Owen also fought post-retcon Beyonder in a display of power largely above most characters, including Lord Mar-Vell. Originally posted by Sirius77
lol. Molecule Man. This is the right answer.

zopzop

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by zopzop
No he didn't. Klaw won and almost killed both the MM and Marsha.

That ONE fight out of his total of FOUR post retcon. He's NEVER shown that level of power aside from that ONE fight. IMHO he dies horribly vs Mar-vell. I corrected myself. They gained the upperhand and then Klaw knocked em out and ran away. Again, irrelevant because of that organic molecule limitation that obviously no longer applies.

Have you not read anything I just stated? You're using an older version of Molecule Man that 1) was mind controlled at one point, and 2) had his organic molecule limitation in place.

Neither of those are relevant. And Lord Mar-Vell hasn't done anything to suggest he could win with outright superior matter manipulation (like Sentry did), or even comes close to approaching post-retcon Beyonder's overall power.

zopzop

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I corrected myself. They gained the upperhand and then Klaw knocked em out and ran away. Again, irrelevant because of that organic molecule limitation that obviously no longer applies.

Klaw almost killed them and then casually WALKED away from the fight because it was over. I believe he actually thought they were dead.

I have been reading what you've written but it still doesn't hold up. Fight 1, owned by Klaw. Fight 2, owned by Aaron. Fight 3 (at "full" pwer), owns Beyonder. Fight 4 (what happened to all his power?), gets owned by Sentry.

One good showing out of four.

King Kandy

Originally posted by zopzop
Lord Mar-vell wins.

Post Retcon MM had 4 fights total. Of those 4, he LOST 3 (Klaw, Aaron the Rogue Watcher, and Sentry). So he had ONE good showing and THREE pathetic showings. I'll take my chances with Lord Mar-vell.
lol. He was depowered when he fought Klaw and Aaron (and since when is losing to a Watcher a pathetic showing anyway?) I would also say, losing to Sentry is not really a bad feat... in contrast, just shows what a beast Sentry is when he is for real.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by zopzop
Klaw almost killed them and then casually WALKED away from the fight because it was over. I believe he actually thought they were dead.

I have been reading what you've written but it still doesn't hold up. Fight 1, owned by Klaw. Fight 2, owned by Aaron. Fight 3 (at "full" pwer), owns Beyonder. Fight 4 (what happened to all his power?), gets owned by Sentry.

One good showing out of four. Again, depowered Owen.

... now you're just being completely ignorant after being corrected with context several times.

One good showing against a character who's far beyond most characters (particularly Lord Mar-Vell). One loss against someone with a higher raw level of matter manipulation. Reality check: Lord Mar-Vell didn't display any matter manipulation close to even what Owen displayed during Dark Avengers. Sentry at his peak fights Photon Genis-Vell toe-to-toe in energy manipulation and Thor toe-to-toe physically. So just because you don't think it's a good showing is practically meaningless. Particularly when you keep acting like current Molecule Man had bad showings in two meaningless fights where he's 1) mind-controlled and 2) depowered.

zopzop

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ thumb up

Again, depowered Owen.

... now you're just being completely ignorant after being corrected with context several times.

One good showing against a character who's far beyond most characters (particularly Lord Mar-Vell). One loss against someone with a higher raw level of matter manipulation. Reality check: Lord Mar-Vell didn't display any matter manipulation close to even what Owen displayed during Dark Avengers. Sentry at his peak fights Photon Genis-Vell toe-to-toe in energy manipulation and Thor toe-to-toe physically. So just because you don't think it's a good showing is practically meaningless. Particularly when you keep acting like current Molecule Man had bad showings in two meaningless fights where he's 1) mind-controlled and 2) depowered.

The very fact that he was controlled by...........Puppet Master, just makes it worse for him not better. So he lost vs Klaw (almost got killed actually). Got mind controlled by Puppet Master, then lost to Aaron in his second fight. "Powers Up" and beats down the Beyonder in the third fight. Magically forgets his "power up" and dies at the hands of the Sentry in his fourth and final fight?

Lord Mar-vell for the win.

iceman24567

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by zopzop
The very fact that he was controlled by...........Puppet Master, just makes it worse for him not better. So he lost vs Klaw (almost got killed actually). Got mind controlled by Puppet Master, then lost to Aaron in his second fight. "Powers Up" and beats down the Beyonder in the third fight. Magically forgets his "power up" and dies at the hands of the Sentry in his fourth and final fight?

Lord Mar-vell for the win. How many times are you going to ignore us correcting you? Depowered Owen was mind-controlled by Puppet Master. Depowered Owen also got knocked out by Klaw. Nobody gives two sh1ts about a depowered Owen, much less a depowered mind-controlled one.

Once Lord Mar-Vell has matter manipulation feats that clearly surpass Owens' from Dark Avengers, he can possibly win the way Sentry did with straight up greater raw ability in matter manipulation. Once Lord Mar-Vell has power that is at least on par with post-retcon Beyonder, then he could possibly win that way also. Obviously, neither apply here.

And your completely incorrect recollection of post-retcon Molecule Man's fight history doesn't change that. And yes, I'll characterize your recollection as "incorrect" until you fully admit the context at play.

janus77

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ You're overgeneralizing his fights by leaving out context and leaving out other fights.

Owen apparently suffered that "can't control organic molecules" limitation against Klaw (said inability obviously no longer applies).

Owen was mind-controlled by the Puppet Master when he fought Aron and, again, suffered that organic molecules limitation (which again, no longer applies). Lord Mar-Vell hasn't demonstrated the ability to generate a complete void surrounding Owen anyway (which is how Aron won). Until he does, he doesn't win that way anyway.

Sentry lost three times by being straight-up obliterated before getting the hang of his own matter manipulation abilities and straight-up overpowering Owen's matter manipulation. Lord Mar-Vell hasn't demonstrated matter manipulation that even comes close to approaching what Owen displayed during that Dark Avengers arc. Until he does, he doesn't win that way either.

Owen also fought post-retcon Beyonder in a display of power largely above most characters, including Lord Mar-Vell. This is the right answer.
sounds about right.

Enzeru

Molecule Man stomps...

The Sorrow

Molecule Man destroys the overrated Lord

the ninjak

When looking at the Many Angled Ones you have to wonder about the levels they existed at. One would have to assume one of the higher level ones rested inside the body of alternate reality Captain Mar-Vell. We never saw telepathic assaults on these creatures but they took matter manipulation fine. When the Fault was compromised they spewed forth and the combined might of the Celestials, Shiar fleets and Kree Fleets and Galactus could barely hold them at bay. Sure we could just see the assault as a mass amount of numbers pouring through but with these guys destructive feats they should've been able to blast straight into the Fault.

The point I'm getting at is whether a Cthonic being like the one inside Lord Mar-Vell would be susceptible to the manipulations Molecule Man is capable of.

It was very difficult for the Annihilators to kill basic spawn. And Mar-Vell himself withstood assaults from both Nova and Surfer while laughing. And Surfer's most intense assaults are pratically destructivly matter manipulative.

There aren't enough feats for the Cthonic side to know for sure. If MM turns Lord Mar-Vell into a bucket of water like he did to Bullseye, would that bucket simply explode into a flurry of tentacles with Mar-Vell emerging within to blast a shocked MM into fear? Why not. Basic spawn withstood Galactus and the Celestials manipulations.

But in the end Molecule Man should win this based on feats. We didn't see much from the opposing side. I guess Lord Mar-Vell VS Shamu Gorath would be a better fight.

quanchi112

Mar-vell wins.

the ninjak

Originally posted by quanchi112
Mar-vell wins.

I'm certainly inclined to agree, but what is your reason?

quanchi112

Originally posted by the ninjak
I'm certainly inclined to agree, but what is your reason? Mentally competent.

the ninjak

Originally posted by quanchi112
Mentally competent.

Fair enough.

zopzop

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
How many times are you going to ignore us correcting you? Depowered Owen was mind-controlled by Puppet Master. Depowered Owen also got knocked out by Klaw. Nobody gives two sh1ts about a depowered Owen, much less a depowered mind-controlled one.

Once Lord Mar-Vell has matter manipulation feats that clearly surpass Owens' from Dark Avengers, he can possibly win the way Sentry did with straight up greater raw ability in matter manipulation. Once Lord Mar-Vell has power that is at least on par with post-retcon Beyonder, then he could possibly win that way also. Obviously, neither apply here.

And your completely incorrect recollection of post-retcon Molecule Man's fight history doesn't change that. And yes, I'll characterize your recollection as "incorrect" until you fully admit the context at play.

Even assuming you are correct, that he was "depowered" in his first two fights. He "powered up" in his third and never lost it. So what happened during his fourth and final fight? He got his ass kicked.

The "depowered" arguement doesn't even make sense in his first fight. Even if he could "only" affect non organic molecules at that time, Klaw isn't organic! According to you, MM should have owned him. Yet he got his ass kicked by him and was almost killed.

There is no explanation how Owen was "powered up" during his third fight and no explanation as to how he lost this miraculous power up. Stated on panel post retcon MM only had a fraction of his power, the tiny bit he hid in Marsha before he formed a full Cube Being with the Beyonder.

If anything, post retcon MM's third fight is PISS (how is Owen with a fraction of the power he originally had a match for a FULL Cube Being?). Since EVERY OTHER FIGHT post retcon resulted in a humiliating LOSS.

AlmightyKfish

Originally posted by zopzop
Even assuming you are correct, that he was "depowered" in his first two fights. He "powered up" in his third and never lost it. So what happened during his fourth and final fight? He got his ass kicked.

The "depowered" arguement doesn't even make sense in his first fight. Even if he could "only" affect non organic molecules at that time, Klaw isn't organic! According to you, MM should have owned him. Yet he got his ass kicked by him and was almost killed.

There is no explanation how Owen was "powered up" during his third fight and no explanation as to how he lost this miraculous power up. Stated on panel post retcon MM only had a fraction of his power, the tiny bit he hid in Marsha before he formed a full Cube Being with the Beyonder.

If anything, post retcon MM's third fight is PISS (how is Owen with a fraction of the power he originally had a match for a FULL Cube Being?). Since EVERY OTHER FIGHT post retcon resulted in a humiliating LOSS.

The depowered argument does make sense, as Klaw is made of pure sound. ie, not molecules, energy. And when he's back at his previous limits, he has limited energy manipulation skill, thus why he couldn't own Klaw.

The explanation was the time since Marsha left him, he spent time practising his power and developing it further.
" For months, he's explored the potential of his powers over reality itself "

Which he later restated during his fight w/ The Beyonder.

And in fact, the reason he can surpasss full cube beings was also mentioned, Kubik saying that it was Owen's mortal nature that allowed him greater potentials than fully realised cube beings.

The reason he was more limited in Dark Avengers, is pretty much purely down to the fact that he was in a pretty bad mental state, as was made clear from the fact he was literally creating multiple avatars for his subconcious.

And either way, he was still able to explode Sentry with no effort at all, and seeing as mar-vell has no matter manipulation feats or anything of the sort to suggest he'd survive/ be immune to such a tactic.

zopzop

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
The depowered argument does make sense, as Klaw is made of pure sound. ie, not molecules, energy. And when he's back at his previous limits, he has limited energy manipulation skill, thus why he couldn't own Klaw.

The explanation was the time since Marsha left him, he spent time practising his power and developing it further.
" For months, he's explored the potential of his powers over reality itself "

Which he later restated during his fight w/ The Beyonder.

And in fact, the reason he can surpasss full cube beings was also mentioned, Kubik saying that it was Owen's mortal nature that allowed him greater potentials than fully realised cube beings.

The reason he was more limited in Dark Avengers, is pretty much purely down to the fact that he was in a pretty bad mental state, as was made clear from the fact he was literally creating multiple avatars for his subconcious.

And either way, he was still able to explode Sentry with no effort at all, and seeing as mar-vell has no matter manipulation feats or anything of the sort to suggest he'd survive/ be immune to such a tactic.

Yeah, and? So 3 out of his 4 appearances his "mental state" screwed him over? Ok assuming this is true, Lord Mar-vell has a 75% chance to crush Owen like Klaw, Sentry, and Aaron did. I like those odds.

And exploding Sentry? Lord Mar-vell and his Masters were taken out by an Abstract, Death, in a blast so powerful it annihilated the Cancerverse and spilled over to 616 reality and destroyed the Galactus Engine that was owning multiple Celestials/Galactus/Teneberous/Aegis. And still they weren't dead. It would just take eons for them to reform. There is no comparison.

Lord Mar-vell wins.

AlmightyKfish

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah, and? So 3 out of his 4 appearances his "mental state" screwed him over? Ok assuming this is true, Lord Mar-vell has a 75% chance to crush Owen like Klaw, Sentry, and Aaron did. I like those odds.

And exploding Sentry? Lord Mar-vell and his Masters were taken out by an Abstract, Death, in a blast so powerful it annihilated the Cancerverse and spilled over to 616 reality and destroyed the Galactus Engine that was owning multiple Celestials/Galactus/Teneberous/Aegis. And still they weren't dead. It would just take eons for them to reform. There is no comparison.

Lord Mar-vell wins.

No, the first two (Klaw/ The Watcher) the fact he had just got his power back and at that point (prior to pushing back his limits and expanding his power) he was limited in what he could do. Hell, for half the Klaw fight he didn't have any powers.

And you're inexplicably grouping Lord Mar-vell with the exponentially more powerful Many Angled ones, Mar-vell was in no way recovering from that, seeing as he was caused to die due to the fact Death was finally able to "visit him" as should have happened when he was dying of cancer. Thanos specified that it was only the "undying ones around" them who would reconstitute, not Mar-vell himself.

Tbf, even if Owen can't directly matter manipulate Mar-vell to death (though Mar-vell has done nothing which would imply his immunity), nothing Mar-vell did would show him capable of escaping inprisonment inside an adamantium block or something of that style. Owen's options to immobilise Mar-vell are unbelievably numerous, if even necessary, as at his full power Owen could just blast Mar-vell into nothing, or tear him apart.

Enzeru

People fail to realize that the post retcon Molecule Man is above people like Silver Surfer, Lord Mar-Vell, Thanos and hell, even Galactus.

He does not have to have the mental state to defeat them. Maybe there would be a way for these characters to outsmart them, yeah - something like that would happen in a comic book fight, but that's not how it's down in a forum-fight. We don't simply let a character outsmart another, because then Lex Luthor would always defeat Superman and Iron Man would never lose to the Hulk, simply because they would have prep or something.

The overall power level plays an important part in battles and Molecule Man stands so much above Lord Mar-Vell, it's not even funny anymore.

You all can deny it as much as you want, especially because that instantly downgrades Thanos as well and yes, Molecule Man would annihilate Thanos EASILY ...
... Molecule Man would still beat Lord Mar-Vell senseless.

It was never shown that Lord Mar-Vell could come up with a way to get past the molecule manipulation on such a high scale.
Molecule Man lost his fast after the retcon, because - as already stated - he was depowered from time to time and during the Dark Avengers he did not have the intention to kill anyone besides the Sentry and he managed to do that easily. He managed to kill the Sentry, someone with insane superhuman durability and invulnerability - with sheer easy. He killed him twice and brought him back, until for the third time Sentry realized what was happening and defeated the Molecule Man with raw, powerful molecule manipulation.

Lord Mar-Vell does not have such luxury. He is not immortal and can keep returning from dead, because he doesn't wish to stay dead and Lord Mar-Vell does not have the luxury of having powerful molecule manipulation.

Everything Lord Mar-Vell has is fairly powerful energy projection and his magic tricks, which won't do him any good against someone like the Molecule Man.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by zopzop
Even assuming you are correct, that he was "depowered" in his first two fights. He "powered up" in his third and never lost it. So what happened during his fourth and final fight? He got his ass kicked.

The "depowered" arguement doesn't even make sense in his first fight. Even if he could "only" affect non organic molecules at that time, Klaw isn't organic! According to you, MM should have owned him. Yet he got his ass kicked by him and was almost killed.

There is no explanation how Owen was "powered up" during his third fight and no explanation as to how he lost this miraculous power up. Stated on panel post retcon MM only had a fraction of his power, the tiny bit he hid in Marsha before he formed a full Cube Being with the Beyonder.

If anything, post retcon MM's third fight is PISS (how is Owen with a fraction of the power he originally had a match for a FULL Cube Being?). Since EVERY OTHER FIGHT post retcon resulted in a humiliating LOSS. Understand context and stop relying on overgeneralities. It's undeniable that when not depowered, Molecule Man doesn't just manipulate organic and inorganic molecules, he also manipulates energy and can apparently even time travel.

If anything, you're just lowballing Molecule Man and ignoring his abilities by acting like a depowered and mindcontrolled Molecule Man is the same thing.

I'm done correcting your mistakes discussing Molecule Man with you. Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
No, the first two (Klaw/ The Watcher) the fact he had just got his power back and at that point (prior to pushing back his limits and expanding his power) he was limited in what he could do. Hell, for half the Klaw fight he didn't have any powers.

And you're inexplicably grouping Lord Mar-vell with the exponentially more powerful Many Angled ones, Mar-vell was in no way recovering from that, seeing as he was caused to die due to the fact Death was finally able to "visit him" as should have happened when he was dying of cancer. Thanos specified that it was only the "undying ones around" them who would reconstitute, not Mar-vell himself.

Tbf, even if Owen can't directly matter manipulate Mar-vell to death (though Mar-vell has done nothing which would imply his immunity), nothing Mar-vell did would show him capable of escaping inprisonment inside an adamantium block or something of that style. Owen's options to immobilise Mar-vell are unbelievably numerous, if even necessary, as at his full power Owen could just blast Mar-vell into nothing, or tear him apart. thumb up

To be fair, Lord Mar-Vell has teleported. So he should be able to escape a block of adamantium.

Mr Master

I love the Mar-vell franchise, but Owen Reece,
the real Molecule Man that battled Beyonder,
annihilates LM.

In that fight, MM was even speedblitzin Beyonder,
while unleashing reality bending blasts at em.
The affects of their fight was felt beyond the prime Multiverse.

Forget it, that Owen Reece, is a true monster.

Like the LT said, "one of the most powerful beings in all creation"

Like Owen said sitting in his couch, "ripping Galaxies apart, that's easy stuff" ...

zopzop

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ thumb up

Understand context and stop relying on overgeneralities. It's undeniable that when not depowered, Molecule Man doesn't just manipulate organic and inorganic molecules, he also manipulates energy and can apparently even time travel.

If anything, you're just lowballing Molecule Man and ignoring his abilities by acting like a depowered and mindcontrolled Molecule Man is the same thing.

I'm done correcting your mistakes discussing Molecule Man with you. thumb up

To be fair, Lord Mar-Vell has teleported. So he should be able to escape a block of adamantium.

Then explain how he miraculously lost his "power up" in between the time he fought Beyonder and Sentry? Face it, 75% of the time, post retcon, he was a joke. And a sad one at that. ONE good showing out of 4 total means the ONE good showing was the fluke.

OneDumbG0

^ Ignoring context like a desperate troll. Because you still can't over the fact that your lies about Molecule Man losing to Klaw and Aron were exposed. Yeah: lies. Nobody holds depowered Hulk, depowered Superman, or depowered Wolverine's losses against them. Nobody. You love them though, because you've got nothing else up your sleeve other than irrelevant sh1t. As I said, no point in discussing it further with you; you still haven't gotten over the fact that numerous posters called you out on your garbage.. Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up

zopzop

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Ignoring context like a desperate troll. Because you still can't over the fact that your lies about Molecule Man losing to Klaw and Aron were exposed. Yeah: lies. Nobody holds depowered Hulk, depowered Superman, or depowered Wolverine's losses against them. Nobody. You love them though, because you've got nothing else up your sleeve other than irrelevant sh1t. As I said, no point in discussing it further with you; you still haven't gotten over the fact that numerous posters called you out on your garbage.. thumb up

He wasn't "depowered" at all, don't you get it? He stored a FRACTION of his power with Marsha right before he merged with Beyonder to form a full Cube. When he came back and explained everything to Marsha, he took back the fragement of his power he had hidden within her. Hence, he only reclaimed the FRACTION of his original post retcon power he had smuggled in Marsha.

So you have Owen with a fraction of a fraction of his post retcon power vs Klaw, which resulted in a loss and nearly killed him.

You have him being taken over by Puppet Master then losing to Aaron the Rogue Watcher in a humiliating fashion.

Then you have him MIRACULOUSLY beating an almost FULL Cube Being (missing only the sliver of the power MM didn't bring into the Cube when he formed Kosmos with the Beyonder) with the fragment of a Cube's power he had. He didn't even have the half or so Cube power he did before he merged with the post retcon Beyonder!

Finally you have him, MIRACULOUSLY forgetting his "power up" and then getting annihilated by Sentry.

Out of those four fights, ONE stands out as out of the norm for post retcon MM. Care to guess which one it was?

Mr Master

Originally posted by zopzop

Then explain how he miraculously lost his "power up" in between
the time he fought Beyonder and Sentry?
It didn't seem like he miraculously lost his "power up" ...
It seemed like Sentry was the one that got the miraculous "power up" smile

Owen was unstoppable in Dark Avengers, he killed many heroes,
disintegrated the battle fleet assisting the heroes,
mind raped Norman (via molecules) & re-arranged a section of the country,
created his own copies of Mephisto, Enchantress, Beyonder, & Dormy
shattered Sentry's molecules 3 separate times (owned)
and finally brought everyone back to life, & fixed the countryside with a thought.

Sentry (after re-generating for the 3rd time) caught Owen off-guard
while Owen was stopping a missile shot at him from a plane he thought was a nuke.

While Sentry has definitely developed an upgrade,
he still won via a stipulation cause while Owen was focused on him
he was getting owned.

That and the fact that Owen, wanted to fail according to the friends he created,
who were an image of his sub-conscious.
Originally posted by zopzop

Face it, 75% of the time, post retcon, he was a joke.
And a sad one at that.

ONE good showing out of 4 total means the ONE good showing
was the fluke.
Hm ... I have to disagree. Especially since you're overlooking the context of those incidents where Owen lost.

Vs Klaw:

He was de-powered and limited
(could not control space/time, or even organic molecules)
and still owned Klaw,
but then jobbed and got surprised by Klaw
who transmitted his sound effect via the ground beneath Owen.

vs. Aaron:

Still de-powered, while taking a stroll in his compound he was
unknowingly mind controlled by Puppet Master.
Puppet Master had Owen face Aaron.
Owen was clowning around the entire fight, and jobbing into a loss,
even telling Aaron his weakness concerning in-organic molecules,
even waiting for Aaron to attack to show off by re-directing what
Aaron threw at em.
For jobbing and waiting like an idiot for Aaron to attack he lost.

vs post Beyonder:

Finally no bull shit and the real Molecule Man is seen.

A monster!

Owen was developing his power for months while thrusting back his limitations,
his potential power-level as post-retcon Molecule Man was realized.

The incredible thing is, that at the end Kubik said that even this level
was not as far as Owen could go due to his human nature which allows
him to surpass basic omnipotence like the one Kubik/Kosmos have.

TheLordofMurder

Originally posted by Enzeru
People fail to realize that the post retcon Molecule Man is above people like Silver Surfer, Lord Mar-Vell, Thanos and hell, even Galactus.

He does not have to have the mental state to defeat them. Maybe there would be a way for these characters to outsmart them, yeah - something like that would happen in a comic book fight, but that's not how it's down in a forum-fight. We don't simply let a character outsmart another, because then Lex Luthor would always defeat Superman and Iron Man would never lose to the Hulk, simply because they would have prep or something.

The overall power level plays an important part in battles and Molecule Man stands so much above Lord Mar-Vell, it's not even funny anymore.

You all can deny it as much as you want, especially because that instantly downgrades Thanos as well and yes, Molecule Man would annihilate Thanos EASILY ...
... Molecule Man would still beat Lord Mar-Vell senseless.

It was never shown that Lord Mar-Vell could come up with a way to get past the molecule manipulation on such a high scale.
Molecule Man lost his fast after the retcon, because - as already stated - he was depowered from time to time and during the Dark Avengers he did not have the intention to kill anyone besides the Sentry and he managed to do that easily. He managed to kill the Sentry, someone with insane superhuman durability and invulnerability - with sheer easy. He killed him twice and brought him back, until for the third time Sentry realized what was happening and defeated the Molecule Man with raw, powerful molecule manipulation.

Lord Mar-Vell does not have such luxury. He is not immortal and can keep returning from dead, because he doesn't wish to stay dead and Lord Mar-Vell does not have the luxury of having powerful molecule manipulation.

Everything Lord Mar-Vell has is fairly powerful energy projection and his magic tricks, which won't do him any good against someone like the Molecule Man.

thumb up

Lets be honest here people; in a forum fight, where there is no PIS, Lord Mar-vell has no chance against Owen...

Owen 10/10 without effort...

zopzop

Originally posted by Mr Master
It didn't seem like he miraculously lost his "power up" ...
It seemed like Sentry was the one that got the miraculous "power up" smile

Owen was unstoppable in Dark Avengers, he killed many heroes,
disintegrated the battle fleet assisting the heroes,
mind raped Norman (via molecules) & re-arranged a section of the country,
created his own copies of Mephisto, Enchantress, Beyonder, & Dormy
shattered Sentry's molecules 3 separate times (owned)
and finally brought everyone back to life, & fixed the countryside with a thought.

Sentry (after re-generating for the 3rd time) caught Owen off-guard
while Owen was stopping a missile shot at him from a plane he thought was a nuke.

While Sentry has definitely developed an upgrade,
he still won via a stipulation cause while Owen was focused on him
he was getting owned.

That and the fact that Owen, wanted to fail according to the friends he created,
who were an image of his sub-conscious.

Hm ... I have to disagree. Especially since you're overlooking the context of those incidents where Owen lost.

Vs Klaw:

He was de-powered and limited
(could not control space/time, or even organic molecules)
and still owned Klaw,
but then jobbed and got surprised by Klaw
who transmitted his sound effect via the ground beneath Owen.

vs. Aaron:

Still de-powered, while taking a stroll in his compound he was
unknowingly mind controlled by Puppet Master.
Puppet Master had Owen face Aaron.
Owen was clowning around the entire fight, and jobbing into a loss,
even telling Aaron his weakness concerning in-organic molecules,
even waiting for Aaron to attack to show off by re-directing what
Aaron threw at em.
For jobbing and waiting like an idiot for Aaron to attack he lost.

vs post Beyonder:

Finally no bull shit and the real Molecule Man is seen.

A monster!

Owen was developing his power for months while thrusting back his limitations,
his potential power-level as post-retcon Molecule Man was realized.

The incredible thing is, that at the end Kubik said that even this level
was not as far as Owen could go due to his human nature which allows
him to surpass basic omnipotence like the one Kubik/Kosmos have.

Mr. M, my friend, you ignored the most important part of my post. The reason why he wasn't "depowered" was because he NEVER had his full post retcon power to begin with. He only had the sliver he hid, then reclaimed, inside Marsha. How does one explain his "power up" and win vs Beyonder (an almost FULL Cube Being) then subsequent depowerment and humiliation vs Sentry? If anything his fight with Sentry is consistent with his loses vs Klaw and Aaron. His fight vs the Beyonder is the anomaly.

Mr Master

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

Lets be honest here people; in a forum fight,
where there is no PIS, Lord Mar-vell has no chance against Owen...

Owen 10/10 without effort...
thumb up

... Owen lost to Sentry because he de-powered himself after fighting post Beyonder.

I just went back flipped a few pages and it's official.

the ninjak

Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up

... Owen lost to Sentry because he de-powered himself after fighting post Beyonder.

I just went back flipped a few pages and it's official.

He de-powered himself? Interesting.

Mr Master

Originally posted by zopzop

Mr. M, my friend, you ignored the most important part of my post.
Mr M never does that.
Originally posted by zopzop

The reason why he wasn't "depowered" was because he NEVER
had his full post retcon power to begin with. He only had the sliver he
hid, then reclaimed, inside Marsha.
That makes no difference it seems.

Owen Reece,
because he was a mortal/human being who's essence was merged with a CCU,
can call upon any imagination to come true.

The portion Owen took back from Marsha was all he needed
to install in him the potential for omnipotence.

As Kubik stated: "Theoretically our powers should be equal"

That right there tells us this "never had his full power" or "sliver"
argument doesn't relate here.

Kubik continues
and adds that Owen's potential is far greater than any mere omnipotent as himself,
due to said reason I mentioned
which is basically because he's a human with CCU power inside him.

Long live humans. smile

Originally posted by zopzop

How does one explain his "power up" and win vs Beyonder (an
almost FULL Cube Being) then subsequent depowerment and
humiliation vs Sentry?
One explains his "power up" by the fact that he literally "thrusted back his limitations"
opening up his potential via releasing his unlimited sub-conscious.

His "depowerment" was courtesy of himself after the Beyonder fight.

btw. He wasn't humiliated by Sentry, in fact, exploded Sentry on 3 separate occasions,
before Sentry caught Owen distracted stopping a bomb coming at
em he thought was a nuke.

Why is this being overlooked as well?
Originally posted by zopzop

If anything his fight with Sentry is consistent with his loses vs
Klaw and Aaron. His fight vs the Beyonder is the anomaly.
Well sorta and not.

Vs Klaw and Aaron ... Owen could not control organic Molecules or warp space-time.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10373489_MM3.jpg

-----------------------------------

Vs Beyonder ... Owen (as MM) could control organic Molecules & warp space-time.

----------------------------------

Vs Sentry ... Owen could control organic Molecules but could not warp space-time.

----------------------------------

Conclusion:

While Owen was more powerful vs Sentry, than Klaw or Aaron,
Owen was no where near as powerful when he took on Sentry than
when he battled Beyonder.

1. Owen (control over organic & in-organic molecules ... able to warp space-time)

2. Owen (control over organic & in-organic molecules)

3. Owen (control over in-organic molecules only)

-----------------------------------

Sentry, after getting effortlessly owned defeated a distracted #2 Owen.

Which is still major upgrade points for Sentry.

Mr Master

^^^ ++++++++

Proof for my post above!

++++++++++++

On Panel:

How Owen got his "power up"

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10119581_10.jpg

------------------------------------

On Panel:

This is why Owen Reece's unlimited side is far more powerful than a Cube being:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10373312_14.jpg

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10119671_15.jpg

------------------------------------

On Panel:

At the end of the Beyonder fight, Owen Reece takes over his unlimited side
and de-powers himself again by burying his unlimited side within his sub-conscious.

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10119674_16.jpg

This is why when he confronts Sentry,
he's not at the same power-level as when he battled Beyonder. smile

-------------------------

Owen Reece, fully unleashed, destroys Mar-vell and Sentry together imo.

Mr Master

++++++++++

Ok, so we probably wanna see how Owen lost to Klaw and Aaron.

Yes, we know Owen was de-powered, but still we're interested.

++++++++++

De-powered (can't control organic molecules or warp space-time) Owen Reece

loses to Klaw due to jobbing:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10373543_MM2.jpg

... hey there, I took away your blaster but still,
be my guest and please hit me while I stand here in glory.

------------------------------------------------

De-powered (can't control organic molecules or warp space-time) Owen Reece

loses to Aaron due to ridiculous jobbing: (on a cartoon scale)

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10373595_MM5.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10373598_MM6.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10373602_MM7.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10373605_MM9.jpg

If yall actually read the scans you'll notice ...

Owen was clowning around the entire fight, and jobbing into a loss,
even telling Aaron his weakness concerning organic molecules,
even waiting for Aaron to attack to show off by re-directing what
Aaron threw at em.

For jobbing and waiting like an idiot for Aaron to attack he lost.

------------------------------------------------

I'm assuming yall know the Sentry fiasco so I won't disssect that any further,
except to add,
that Owen wanted to fail according to the friends he created,
who were an image of his sub-conscious.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10373744_MM20.jpg

I'm not conclusively sayin he gave Sentry the win, but it's possible he eased his own demise.

After all, all he kept saying through out his appearances was that he wanted to be left alone.
and either he wanted everyone else to go away, or he wanted to go away.

Just sayin.

guy222

owen at his best wins

owen at jobber lvls loses

very simple friends

current reece doesn't have death's power to stop mar-vell

mr. m would u agree death>eternity or they =

Mr Master

Originally posted by guy222

mr. m would u agree death>eternity or they =
The most powerful concept is Abraxas.

Abraxas (destruction)

Eternity/Infinity = Death/Oblivion ... balanced by Galactus' existence.

Necessity - Eternity /Infinity
Equity - Galactus
Vengeance - Death /Oblivion

Entropy (death-re-birth of space-time)

---------------------------------

Eternity/Infinity are responsible for doing more though.

As space (Infinity) expands with time (Eternity) the landscape for reality is set.

For universes to properly function within this cosmic landscape of reality (space-time)
Eternity/infinity are complimented by other abstract concepts.
The most important below them would be Lord Chaos & Master Order,
who also represent a balance, that is,
"the balance of opposite forces" between the chaos & order within universes.

This is what's required to maintain a functioning universe.

Mistress Love and Master Hate are the emotional balance within universes.

Then there's the Universe's (or Eternity's) children,
who play a role to maintain properly functioning life within reality:

(in no particular order)

The Phoenix Force, the Celestials, the Makers, the Anomaly, Origin, Unbeing,

Empathy, Eulogy, Expediency, Entropy, Epiphany, Enmity & Epoch

---------------------------

That's about it from what I know.

zopzop

Mr. M, I have those issues. You are telling me Owen with a SLIVER of the power he had post retcon was > than his "full" pre retcon self? Never! Think about what that implies if true.

The writer of that issue was an idiot. And later writers took care of that stupidity (his loss and death at the hands of Sentry).

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ thumb up

Again, depowered Owen.

... now you're just being completely ignorant after being corrected with context several times.

One good showing against a character who's far beyond most characters (particularly Lord Mar-Vell). One loss against someone with a higher raw level of matter manipulation. Reality check: Lord Mar-Vell didn't display any matter manipulation close to even what Owen displayed during Dark Avengers. Sentry at his peak fights Photon Genis-Vell toe-to-toe in energy manipulation and Thor toe-to-toe physically. So just because you don't think it's a good showing is practically meaningless. Particularly when you keep acting like current Molecule Man had bad showings in two meaningless fights where he's 1) mind-controlled and 2) depowered.

I'm curious... Him having molecular control limitations... doesn't have a thing to do with being mind raped. His mind IS that vulnerable.. with molecular limitations or without.

Mr Master

Originally posted by zopzop

Mr. M, I have those issues.

You are telling me Owen with a SLIVER of the power he had post retcon was > than his "full" pre retcon self?

Never! Think about what that implies if true.
no expression

zop, how did you imagine this in any of my posts?

"Pre-retcon" Owen Reece has nothing to do with anything I wrote.
Originally posted by zopzop

The writer of that issue was an idiot.
And later writers took care of that stupidity
(his loss and death at the hands of Sentry).
I disagree.

I'm confident I laid out all the sound reasons that address your good questions.

Anything further is simply not wanting to accept the on panel facts,
which I presented and evidently corroborates everything I posted,
in this case, no one can debate you out of believing what you do.

Peace & Loves though smile

Parmaniac

Originally posted by Mr Master
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10373744_MM20.jpg I had this part in mind when I said that Dark Avengers MM would beat Mar-Vell, even if he can't kill him how's Mar-Vell turning back if he gets turned into water?

zopzop

Originally posted by Mr Master
no expression

zop, how did you imagine this in any of my posts?

"Pre-retcon" Owen Reece has nothing to do with anything I wrote.

I disagree.

I'm confident I laid out all the sound reasons that address your good questions.

Anything further is simply not wanting to accept the on panel facts,
which I presented and evidently corroborates everything I posted,
in this case, no one can debate you out of believing what you do.

Peace & Loves though smile

No, I understand it's not what you wrote Mr. M but in one of those scans (the one in the fight vs the Beyonder), Owen says he's far more powerful now than when Beyonder bested him during Secret Wars (I'm assuming the writer meant Secret Wars II and not I but you never know with these guys). This is an impossibility. He only had a sliver of his POST retcon power he hid inside Marsha. How the hell could he be more powerful than when he fought the Beyonder during Secret War II when he has his "full" pre retcon power? This is why I say the fight he had vs Beyonder was pure PIS/CIS and is the anomaly in his post retcon appearances.

Mr Master

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

I'm curious... Him having molecular control limitations... doesn't
have a thing to do with being mind raped. His mind IS that
vulnerable.. with molecular limitations or without.
Owen showed phenomenal mind-raping skills
I didn't even know he had in Dark Avengers.

He does this via brain molecules.

That past weakness may be gone. He's still a depressed man though. sad

Originally posted by zopzop

No, I understand it's not what you wrote Mr. M but in one of those
scans (the one in the fight vs the Beyonder), Owen says he's far more
powerful now than when Beyonder bested him during Secret Wars
(I'm assuming the writer meant Secret Wars II and not I but you
never know with these guys). This is an impossibility. He only had a
sliver of his POST retcon power he hid inside Marsha. How the hell
could he be more powerful than when he fought the Beyonder during
Secret War II when he has his "full" pre retcon power?

Actually I'm sure the writer is taking into account the retcon.

Remember, just cause parts of Secret Wars were retconned,
the event still took place,
and Beyonder did indeed defeat Owen in SSII.

Molecule Man is saying he's surpassed the level he was at
when he fought Beyonder in SSII.

Which is true, in SSII, Beyonder beat Owen, in this fight,
Owen beats Beyonder.

His statement is 100% accurate
and does not disrupt retconned continuity in the slightest.

** Lastly forget about the "sliver" argument as it does not pertain to Owen,
since he's a human being that so called "sliver" you've dubbed is enough
for him to acquire greater potential than Kubik can dream of.

That aside, the writers aren't even considering this "sliver" notion
cause Kubik outright said "theoretically our powers should be equal"
signifying that Owen's normal level should be that of a Cube being like himself.

He surpasses this level because he's a human being with CCU power,
unlike Kubik/Kosmos who are embodiments of pure energy/power,
without their power, their non-existent, while without power,
Owen's life-force continues.

This makes all the difference.

I suppose it's like a CCU in the hands of a sentient being. Anything is possible.

We already know a CCU > Cube being

KuRuPT Thanosi

zopzop

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually I'm sure the writer is taking into account the retcon.

Remember, just cause parts of Secret Wars were retconned,
the event still took place,
and Beyonder did indeed defeat Owen in SSII.

Molecule Man is saying he's surpassed the level he was at
when he fought Beyonder in SSII.

Which is true, in SSII, Beyonder beat Owen, in this fight,
Owen beats Beyonder.

His statement is 100% accurate
and does not disrupt retconned continuity in the slightest.

** Lastly forget about the "sliver" argument as it does not pertain to Owen,
since he's a human being that so called "sliver" you've dubbed is enough
for him to acquire greater potential than Kubik can dream of.

That aside, the writers aren't even considering this "sliver" notion
cause Kubik outright said "theoretically our powers should be equal"
signifying that Owen's normal level should be that of a Cube being like himself.

He surpasses this level because he's a human being with CCU power,
unlike Kubik/Kosmos who are embodiments of pure energy/power,
without their power, their non-existent, while without power,
Owen's life-force continues.

This makes all the difference.

I suppose it's like a CCU in the hands of a sentient being. Anything is possible.

We already know a CCU > Cube being

And this is why I say it's impossible, Mr. M. On panel we know he only had a fraction of his post retcon power, how is it possible for him to be MORE powerful than when he had his full pre retcon power?

And Kubik's comment "theoretically we should be equal" just makes it worse. How would they be "theoretically" equal? Kubik is a full Cube Being, MM had a sliver of his power he hid inside Marsha before he formed a full Cube Being with Beyonder.

Post Retcon (FF 319?) :
Beyonder - a little more than half a Cube Being
Molecule Man - a little less than half a Cube Being
They form almost a full Cube Being - Kosmos (MM secretly hid a sliver of his power in Marsha)

Post Retcon (FF Annual 24?)
MM comes back and reclaims the sliver of his power he hid inside Marsha

There is NO way they could even be "theoretical" equals.

EDITED -
Typo

Parmaniac

Originally posted by Mr Master
He's still a depressed man though. sad

Which is stupid he should easily be able to cure himself by altering his own neuro transmitters.

EDIT: On second thought that would be awesome you would be constantly high on your powers.

Mr Master

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

again

Owen displaying mind-raping ability:

Quite efficiently too. He had Osbourn juggling different realities in his head.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10375694_M1.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10375695_M2.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10375696_M3.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10375732_M4.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10375733_M5.jpg

---------------------------------------------

While Owen is mind-raping Orbourn,
he simultaneously teleports away to where Sentry reforms and explodes him for a second time.

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10375752_M6.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10375757_M7.jpg

---------------------------------------------

Owen proceeds to kill the other Dark Avengers one by one ...

... and the incredible thing is, he was still mind-raping Osbourn simultaneously all along:

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10375761_M8.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10375764_M9.jpg

---------------------------------------------

Owen even had a long conversation with Victoria Hand before Owen stopped mind-rape of Osbourn.

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10375765_M10.jpg

---------------------------------------------

That's very impressive imo.

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
Owen says he's far more powerful now than when Beyonder bested him during Secret Wars (I'm assuming the writer meant Secret Wars II and not I but you never know with these guys). This is an impossibility. He only had a sliver of his POST retcon power he hid inside Marsha. How the hell could he be more powerful than when he fought the Beyonder during Secret War II when he has his "full" pre retcon power? Because thanks to the retcon, Beyonder=half of a CCU. Per continuity, he was never more than that (even in Secret Wars.) 'Pre-retcon' levels do not exist within the world of comics.

That said, Owen>>.5 of a CCU. I think that's the point they were trying to make. /shrug

Mr Master

... Kosmos became a full Cube being when Owen was separated from it.

Marvel isn't taking into account the portion Owen extracted.

I never heard that mentioned, or even alluded to anywhere as a relevance.
Originally posted by zopzop

And this is why I say it's impossible, Mr. M. On panel we know
he only had a fraction of his post retcon power, how is it possible
for him to be MORE powerful than when he had his full pre retcon
power?

And Kubik's comment "theoretically we should be equal" just makes
it worse. How would they be "theoretically" equal? Kubik is a full
Cube Being, MM had a sliver of his power he hid inside Marsha
before he formed a full Cube Being with Beyonder.

Post Retcon (FF 319?) :
Beyonder - a little more than half a Cube Being
Molecule Man - a little less than half a Cube Being
They form almost a full Cube Being - Kosmos (MM secretly hid a
sliver of his power in Marsha)

Post Retcon (FF Annual 24?)
MM comes back and reclaims the sliver of his power he hid inside
Marsha

There is NO way they could even be "theoretical" equals.

I see where you're coming from and in a perfect world order
of one's design you'd probably be right.

The thing is though,
Marvel isn't taking into account the "portion" Owen retrieved as
making him less powerful than when he had "more" of the CCU portion.

Evidently, it makes no difference.

To Marvel, and to us now since this is their company,
Owen has Cosmic Containment Unit power within him,
whatever the amount, because he's human,
and because he was "thrusting his limitations back for months"
his potential surpassed that of a Cube being by far.

Evidently, those are the facts.

Sr J-Bieb

Mar-Vell turns into Marsha and beats the bejimmies out of Molecule Man

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
Because thanks to the retcon, Beyonder=half of a CCU. He was never more than that (even in Secret Wars.)

And the crazy thing is Owen has less power than that! He only had the sliver of power he had post retcon that he stored inside Marsha.

So Owen with a SLIVER of his post retcon power (little less than half a cube being) >>>>> Beyonder (a little less than a FULL Cube Being, missing only the sliver of power that Molecule Man hid inside Marsha)?

Worse, according to Kubik that issue :

MM with a sliver of his post retcon power is theoretically equal to Kubik.

That entire story was one big clusterf--k.

zopzop

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ thumb up

... and Kosmos became a full Cube being when Owen was separated from it.

Marvel isn't taking into account the portion Owen extracted.

I never heard that mentioned, or even alluded to anywhere as a relevance.

I see where you're coming from and in a perfect world order
of one's design you'd probably be right.

The thing is though,
Marvel isn't taking into account the "portion" Owen retrieved as
making him less powerful than when he had "more" of the CCU portion.

Evidently, it makes no difference.

To Marvel, and to us now since this is their company,
Owen has Cosmic Containment Unit power within him,
whatever the amount, becuase he's human,
and because he was thrusting his limitations back for months"
his potential surpassed that of a Cube being by far.

Evidently, those are the facts.

Even assuming Marvel (more likely that one writer) didn't take the "sliver" thing into account, how do you explain his subsequent pwnage by Sentry?

Again, no matter how you look at it, it's his fight with Beyonder that's the anomaly, not his other fights with Klaw/Aaron/Sentry.

Mr Master

Originally posted by zopzop

Even assuming Marvel (more likely that one writer)
didn't take the "sliver" thing into account,

how do you explain his subsequent pwnage by Sentry?
Well first, Sentry didn't "pwn" him.

In fact, Owen (effortlessly) exploded Sentry on 3 separate occasions,
before Sentry caught Owen distracted stopping a bomb coming at
em
which Owen thought was a nuke.

That's when Sentry took control of Owen's molecules.

Other than that,
Owen was tossing Sentry's molecules around like birthday confetti.

That aside,
the Owen that battled Sentry was not the Owen that fought Beyonder:
Originally posted by Mr Master

On Panel:

At the end of the Beyonder fight, Owen Reece takes over his unlimited side
and de-powers himself again by burying his unlimited side within his sub-conscious.

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10119674_16.jpg

This is why when he confronts Sentry,
he's not at the same power-level as when he battled Beyonder. smile

-------------------------

Owen Reece, fully unleashed, destroys Mar-vell and Sentry together imo.
De-powered again. sad

Originally posted by zopzop

Again, no matter how you look at it, it's his fight with Beyonder that's the anomaly,
not his other fights with Klaw/Aaron/Sentry.
I disagree.

If you truly read my posts you'd know the reasons behind the stipulated loses to Klaw & Aaron.