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According to Thanos himself (during the Infinity War), The Magus possessed power "just short" of those of the Infinity Gauntlet while in possession of the 5 Cosmic Containment Unit's...

So according to Thanos, 5 CCU's="just short" of the 6 Infinity Gems...

Now with that stated, would 6 CCU's equal or surpass the power of the 6 Infinity Gems?

Feel free to explain why you feel the way you do pertaining to this...thanx!


Edit: The 6 Infinity Gems are used in unison as pertains this thread and form the IG; just incase that isnt clear...

Words are cheap. On panel, the IG was/is far more impressive than the CCUs.

Originally posted by zopzop
Words are cheap. On panel, the IG was/is far more impressive than the CCUs.

Well seeing as how Thanos has weilded both the 6 Infinity Gems and a CCU, I think he would be qualified to make that statement...wouldnt he?

One Gem vs one CCU should go to the CCU.

This is what I know about the Gems:
It is the Power Gem that makes all of the Gems work at high infinite levels, so altogether, one or many CCU's would be trumped.

I would love to see what Mr. Master, ZopZop, and the other Cosmic Guru posters thoughts are to this subject as it progresses.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Well seeing as how Thanos has weilded both the 6 Infinity Gems and a CCU, I think he would be qualified to make that statement...wouldnt he?

And the crazy thing is, he accomplished far more using the IG than the CCU.

To put it another way, the Magus forgot all about the CCUs once he had the IG. He even commented how much easier it was to phase his two universes together with the INCOMPLETE IG than it was using his FIVE CCUs.

Even the CCUs biggest "feat", putting Eternity in a coma, was just an illusion. Since he showed up, no worse for wear, with Infinity and proceeded to beat the crap out of Magus.

Originally posted by Stoic
One Gem vs one CCU should go to the CCU.



This.

Originally posted by zopzop
And the crazy thing is, he accomplished far more using the IG than the CCU.

To put it another way, the Magus forgot all about the CCUs once he had the IG. He even commented how much easier it was to phase his two universes together with the INCOMPLETE IG than it was using his FIVE CCUs.

Even the CCUs biggest "feat", putting Eternity in a coma, was just an illusion. Since he showed up, no worse for wear, with Infinity and proceeded to beat the crap out of Magus.

This doesnt contradict what Thanos said; Thanos said the 5 CCU's were inferior to the IG..."just short" to be exact....and, of course, the IG doesnt kill you when used directly (as the CCU's would; thats why the Magus manipulated them with tech instead of direct use).

Well if 5 CCU's are just short of the IG, shouldnt 6 CCU's equal or surpass the IG?

It would not. In Infinity Crusade, the Goddess collected 30 CCUs, but it was still considered to fall short of the IG.

@zopzop

Didnt the Magus also use th 5 CCU's to hide from the LT? That seems to be a better feat than placing Eternity in a coma...

Of course its actually one huge feat as the 5 CCU's were powerful to hide from the LT, place Eternity in a coma, blast Galactus to bits, and prevent the UN from firing...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
This doesnt contradict what Thanos said; Thanos said the 5 CCU's were inferior to the IG..."just short" to be exact....and, of course, the IG doesnt kill you when used directly (as the CCU's would; thats why the Magus manipulated them with tech instead of direct use).

Well if 5 CCU's are just short of the IG, shouldnt 6 CCU's equal or surpass the IG?

You put too much faith into Thanos' words as opposed to what was shown on panel LoM. Magus himself commented on how much more powerful the INCOMPLETE (missing the Reality Gem) IG was compared to his 5 CCUs and then proceeded to show us on panel that it wasn't a BS statement.

On panel proof >>>>>>>>>>>character statements.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@zopzop

Didnt the Magus also use th 5 CCU's to hide from the LT? That seems to be a better feat than placing Eternity in a coma...

Of course its actually one huge feat as the 5 CCU's were powerful to hide from the LT, place Eternity in a coma, blast Galactus to bits, and prevent the UN from firing...

Hiding from the LT isn't much of a feat. You have people that have actually cause the LT to retreat (Korvac) or beat him out right (Reed). Even though those were alt reality showings, they count as far as the LT is concerned.

Eternity was never truly in a coma, he showed up with Infinity and proceeded to own the Magus.

Blasting Galactus to bits is nice but the IG can do that and more. Shown on panel too.

I'll have to look up the UN bit. I have the issues.

Originally posted by King Kandy
It would not. In Infinity Crusade, the Goddess collected 30 CCUs, but it was still considered to fall short of the IG.

The strength of a CCU is directly proportional to the willpower of its user...

According to Mephisto, a single CCU is all-power if compelled to break its self imposed inhibitions by a will more powerful than its own...

Didnt Thanos (with a single CCU) take Eternity's place?

If anything, it seems:

Thanos's will>>The Magus will>>The Goddess will...as pertains getting the most out of a CCU.

The Magus admits he's doomed if Warlock gets the IG to function :
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7757/nodoubth.th.jpg

Magus' adapts to omnipotence faster than either Warlock or Thanos (there goes that "will" argument)
http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/9269/sfast.th.jpg

CCUs compared to the INCOMPLETE IG :
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/3122/hours.th.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop
The Magus admits he's doomed if Warlock gets the IG to function :
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7757/nodoubth.th.jpg

Magus' adapts to omnipotence faster than either Warlock or Thanos (there goes that "will" argument)
http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/9269/sfast.th.jpg

CCUs compared to the INCOMPLETE IG :
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/3122/hours.th.jpg

Adapting to omnipotence does not equate to possessing greater will power; you dont have to force the IG to do things against their will...but you must do this with CCU's.

And once again, Thanos stated that the 5 CCU's were inferior to the IG; this thread involves a 6th CCU...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Adapting to omnipotence does not equate to possessing greater will power; you dont have to force the IG to do things against their will...but you must do this with CCU's.

And once again, Thanos stated that the 5 CCU's were inferior to the IG; this thread involves a 6th CCU...

On panel, Magus accomplished more with 5 Infinity Gems than with 5 CCUs. Thanos accomplished more with the IG than he did with a CCU. Magus with 5 CCUs admits he's dead if Warlock gets the Gauntlet functioning.

Originally posted by zopzop
On panel, Magus accomplished more with 5 Infinity Gems than with 5 CCUs. Thanos accomplished more with the IG than he did with a CCU. Magus with 5 CCUs admits he's dead if Warlock gets the Gauntlet functioning.

And once again, the CCU's are only as powerful as your willpower forces them to be...

Thanos accomplished with a sole CCU (actually more as he took Eternity's place) than Magus did with 5...

To further that, even with an inferior will, Magus was able to come "just short" of the IG's power with 5 of them...add a 6th and I honestly dont think its a certainty that the IG is stronger.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
The strength of a CCU is directly proportional to the willpower of its user...

According to Mephisto, a single CCU is all-power if compelled to break its self imposed inhibitions by a will more powerful than its own...

Didnt Thanos (with a single CCU) take Eternity's place?
Well, in Magus' case, he controlled the CCUs entirely with computers so his willpower was never a factor. I could agree with the concept that a CCU can compare to an IG depending on the situation, but, there is no simple rule of thumb like "six is enough to win"; it depends on the situation.

I disagree with the idea that the five CCU was "just short of the IG". Magus, who used both directly one after the other, said the IG was way, way more powerful; it completed the universal merger in a second, which would have taken hours under the five CCUs. And the kicker is, that IG only had five gems. With the full set, the gap would be wider still.

Remember the Chaos Engine Trilogy hmm

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

According to Thanos himself (during the Infinity War),
The Magus possessed power "just short" of those of the Infinity
Gauntlet while in possession of the 5 Cosmic Containment Unit's...

So according to Thanos, 5 CCU's="just short" of the 6 Infinity Gems...

Now with that stated, would 6 CCU's equal or surpass the power of the 6 Infinity Gems?

The thing is, Thanos never said that, or anything that alludes to that idea.

So this entire scenario is not plausible.

Originally posted by Stoic

One Gem vs one CCU should go to the CCU.
It is very possible, that one CCU can match the IG.

The CCU can make one just as much "god" as the IG.

The CCU has feats under its belt that are arguably amongst the most uber of Marvel.
(I'm talking omniversal here)
Originally posted by Stoic

This is what I know about the Gems:

It is the Power Gem that makes all of the Gems work at high infinite levels, so altogether, one or many CCU's would be trumped.

Although all 6 need to be together to grant absolute omnipotence beneath the LT.

How about when goddess had the cosmic egg....

Originally posted by rotiart

How about when goddess had the cosmic egg....
The amount of CCUs one has is inconsequential if they're not being harnessed significantly.

Yes,
it would still make the character even more powerful if he had more,
but,
if said character happens to have the will,
said character can utilize ONE CCU with greater affect than 5
or the 30 that made up the Cosmic Egg.

My stance comes from the X-Men's - Chaos Engine Trilogy arc.

Incredible story, on an Omniversal scale.

The highest showings ever for a CCU and also for Roma.

The CCU in that story was going to collapse the Omniverse,
that's how powerful it was, and unbelievably it was only a baby CCU,
and it was even slightly flawed. (not power-wise though)

It took 3 separate alternate UniverseS and placed them one by one on top of 616,
it was also compressing the entire Omniverse slowly but surely.

Towards the end, Doom steals most of Roma's power
and stalemates the Red Skull who had the CCU,
but after a good battle the CCU began to take the edge, and then
the PIS came in to stop the Red Skull and end the story.

And well, part of that ending has the CCU putting back the 3
UniverseS in their rightful place in the Omniverse,
decompressing the Omniverse,
and finally remaking all the damage done to the 3 UniverseS, plus 616,
plus the UniverseS that surround 616 which were infected earlier on
by the CCU.

----------------------------------------------

After it's all said and done,
one has to wonder just how powerful then is the source of the CCU's reality altering ability.

When the CCU that was able to do that
is literally a "minute bit of energy" of the Beyonders.

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/10335452_CCU.jpg

The mysterious Beyonders.

I don't know... The way the living tribunal puts it almost makes me think it's like an adult left the keys to the car in front of a child and said lets see what happens. They seemed interested not worried. Minute power I the infinite not withstanding. :-/

@rotiart

Exactly. The Tribunal even says "We permitted..." Meaning if He said no, that's that.

Originally posted by rotiart

I don't know... The way the living tribunal puts it almost makes me
think it's like an adult left the keys to the car in front of a child and
said lets see what happens. They seemed interested not worried.

Hey there good friend,
but I never commented on their emotions concerning the Beyonders,
I was pointing out how it's a minute bit of energy of the Beyonders
that empowers a single CCU with omniversal influence.

Therefore,
we can assert that the power of the Beyonders is on a ridiculous scale.

That aside,
as for the LT saying we permitted can just as easily signify
they have a working relationship with the Beyonders,
or it could be more sinister as in, we permitted cause we have no choice.

... meh,
I'm speculating but the madness that CCUs have committed doesn't
seem like something any Cosmic would like in their territory
so it doesn't really add up why they would encourage the potential
destruction of all reality as a fun passing experiment.
Then again I guess the Beyonders can come through and rectify the whole thing,
although that's never happened before
since the CCU always ends up fixing the problem itself.

I think it's a working relationship, like Cosmic friends sortaspeak I suppose.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The thing is, Thanos never said that, or anything that alludes to that idea.

Oh really!?

If we bet money on it, you'd lose...

I dont have the scan, but I have the comic right here in front of me; from The Infinity War 1...page 18...1st panel:

Thanos after locating the device holding the 5 CCU's: "I am talking about power readings just short of the levels of the Infinity Gauntlets."

So yeah, Thanos definitely made that statement, and the premise presented in the OP is very plausible as a result...

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well, in Magus' case, he controlled the CCUs entirely with computers so his willpower was never a factor. I could agree with the concept that a CCU can compare to an IG depending on the situation, but, there is no simple rule of thumb like "six is enough to win"; it depends on the situation.

I disagree with the idea that the five CCU was "just short of the IG". Magus, who used both directly one after the other, said the IG was way, way more powerful; it completed the universal merger in a second, which would have taken hours under the five CCUs. And the kicker is, that IG only had five gems. With the full set, the gap would be wider still.

You are correct; the Magus never used the CCU's with direct willpower, but with tech as the CCU's would kill you...

However, I can then say that:

Thanos's will>>Magus's tech>>Goddess's will...as pertains to getting the most out of a CCU then.


As pertains the idea that 5 CCU's are just short of the IG, 1st off we have Thanos (who is highly intelligent and experienced with both artifacts) making the comment, and its a fact that a CCU is only limited by how hard you are able to push it (so to speak)...

Evidently, the 5 CCU's were held back by the Magus's tech (and the fact that direct usage would kill you) while nothing holds back the performance of the IG; the IG proved to be significantly more powerful under those conditions as a result...


Now I do agree with you that a rule of thumb statement such as "6 CCU's is enough" is false; it depends on who is at the controls of the CCU's as pertains how many of them would be needed to equal or surpass the IG...afterall, theorectically, 1 CCU could equal the IG if a strong enough willed individual was at the helm.

Anyway, if the Magus's tech was able to come "just short" (which I interpret as significantly, but not vastly short) of the IG with 5 CCU's, then 6 CCU's should be able to come really close...if not outright equalling or surpassing...the power of the IG.

Isn't the "Chaos Engine Trilogy" a set of novels? Where canonicity is concerned, where do feats from novels stack up next to feats from comic books? I only ask because we are talking about night and day differences in scope here.

Originally posted by Galan007
Isn't the "Chaos Engine Trilogy" a set of novels? Where canonicity is concerned, where do feats from novels stack up next to feats from comic books? I only ask because we are talking about night and day differences in scope here.

I am honestly not sure...

My gut says the novels should be canon, but I cant really back that up with anything concrete...

I wonder what the mods think about this?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

I dont have the scan, but I have the comic right here in front of me; from The Infinity War 1...page 18...1st panel:

Thanos after locating the device holding the 5 CCU's: "I am talking about power readings just short of the levels of the Infinity Gauntlets."

Pardon me, you're right,
Thanos did say that, I was drawing back memory from wrong Infinity arc.

Although, I'll give you my reasons why it still doesn't stand in a minute.

Originally posted by Galan007

Isn't the "Chaos Engine Trilogy" a set of novels? Where canonicity
is concerned, where do feats from novels stack up next to feats from
comic books? I only ask because we are talking about night and day
differences in scope here.
Good question.

Imo, it should be because incidents that occurred within the Novel arc
affected stories that would otherwise be presented on panel within
actual comic books.

Two characters I believe died in the novel, (I'll get those names for ya)
that appeared on panel before and now never will again.

There was also some reality affects to 616 that remained in order to fix it.

-------------------------


The best argument I guess it has is this:

http://www.marvunapp.com/master/chaochaz.htm

CHAOS ENGINE -

"Cosmic Cube created by Dr. Doom, used in effort to Re-Write Reality,
actually merged Earth-616 and Earth-892 to form
Earth-Chaos Engine: Dr. Doom by Dr. Doom,

then used to further merge/Re-structure that Reality by Magneto to form
Earth-Chaos Engine: Magneto,

and then again by the Red Skull to form
Earth-Chaos Engine: Red Skull;

these alterations affected the entire Omniverse and threatened all Reality"

(Reference)

X-Men / Dr. Doom: Chaos Engine: Book One)

(X-Men / Magneto: Chaos Engine: Book Two)

(X-Men / Red Skull: Chaos Engine: Book Three)

-------------------------


Marvel seems to accept this as 100% Canon:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-AZ9

(under Saturnyne)

"escaped & captured Sat-Yr9"

(X-Men/Magneto: The Chaos Engine Trilogy Book 2 &
X-Men/Red Skull: The Chaos Engine Trilogy Book 3, 2002)"

-------------------------

And Again: (Marvel.com)

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-AZ3

(Under Cosmic Cube)

"Cube merged dimensions" (X-Men: The Chaos Engine Trilogy, 2000-2002)"

-------------------------

...sorry yall, this link is now fixed:

Marvel seems to accept this as 100% Canon:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-AZ9

(under Saturnyne)

"escaped & captured Sat-Yr9"

(X-Men/Magneto: The Chaos Engine Trilogy Book 2 &
X-Men/Red Skull: The Chaos Engine Trilogy Book 3, 2002)"

-------------------------

+++++++

If anyone is interested, here's some of the "on panel" visuals of the Novel:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10341990_X1.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10341996_X2.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10342000_X3.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10342003_X4.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10342006_X5.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10342010_X6.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10342013_X7.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10342016_X8.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10342017_X9.jpg

The Novel is 864 pages long with over 800 pages of pure text.

It's one of the best reads I've enjoyed.

PS. This was the most difficult comic/novel/book to find, ever. (for free that is)

^ It could very well be canon, but it's a very rare instance when novelizations are used in the comic book vs. forum (in fact, I can't remember any other time this has happened..?mmm) That's the only reason I asked.

Anywho, it's not that I don't or won't accept the novel's depiction of a CCU, it's just hard to accept it when a CCU has never demonstrated a scope of influence anywhere near that level in a comic book. However, if it IS canon, then a CCU would be WELL above the IG, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ It could very well be canon, but it's a very rare instance when novelizations are used in the comic book vs. forum (in fact, I can't remember any other time this has happened..?mmm) That's the only reason I asked.

Anywho, it's not that I don't or won't accept the novel's depiction of a CCU, it's just hard to accept it when a CCU has never demonstrated a scope of influence anywhere near that level in a comic book. However, if it IS canon, then a CCU would be WELL above the IG, imo.

It is canon in the sense that it even appeared in the Cosmic Cubes Handbook Entry :
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4178/allnewohotmuaz0307.th.jpg
Said Doom wanted the Cube to make some universal level change but the nascent Cube wasn't powerful enough so instead grafted another reality that was close to what Doom wished for onto the one Doom was in. This caused some instability issues and Roma stepped in.

Originally posted by zopzop


It is canon in the sense that it even appeared in the Cosmic Cubes Handbook Entry :

Said Doom wanted the Cube to make some universal level change but
the nascent Cube wasn't powerful enough so instead grafted another
reality that was close to what Doom wished for onto the one Doom
was in. This caused some instability issues and Roma stepped in.
Yea, I was about to post actual Handbook scans, there's also
others.

btw. That description of what happened is vague and portion of what took place.

The CCU took an entire alternate Universe from somewhere out in the Omniverse,
and merged it with the 616 Reality for Doom.
Then the CCU took another entire alternate Universe from somewhere out in the Omniverse,
and merged it with the 616 Reality for Magneto,

Then it the same thing for the Red Skull.

The CCU had a flaw though, so at first the CCU's actions were unstable,
this flaw caused the CCU to infect by warping badly
the surrounding Universes around 616, I believe it was 12 Realities.

The CCU's flaw also caused it to slowly compress the entire Omniverse,
this is what really got Roma's attention.

It goes to show what a CCU is capable of fully unleashed.

But we gotta give Roma her props.

In that story Roma came out as a true Guardian of the Omniverse,
so much so, that we got to know what her power is when written to
true potential.

Doom (empowered by most of Roma's power, not full)
was able to stalemate the power of the CCU for a good while before
it began to lose the edge.

But that CCU was just ridiculous it repaired everything across the Omniverse,
with a change or two.

Originally posted by zopzop
It is canon in the sense that it even appeared in the Cosmic Cubes Handbook Entry :
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4178/allnewohotmuaz0307.th.jpg Cool beans.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, I was about to post actual Handbook scans, there's also
others.

btw. That description of what happened is vague and portion of what took place.

The CCU took an entire alternate Universe from somewhere out in the Omniverse,
and merged it with the 616 Reality for Doom.
Then the CCU took another entire alternate Universe from somewhere out in the Omniverse,
and merged it with the 616 Reality for Magneto,

Then it the same thing for the Red Skull.

The CCU had a flaw though, so at first the CCU's actions were unstable,
this flaw caused the CCU to infect by warping badly
the surrounding Universes around 616, I believe it was 12 Realities.

The CCU's flaw also caused it to slowly compress the entire Omniverse,
this is what really got Roma's attention.

It goes to show what a CCU is capable of fully unleashed.

But we gotta give Roma her props.

In that story Roma came out as a true Guardian of the Omniverse,
so much so, that we got to know what her power is when written to
true potential.

Doom (empowered by most of Roma's power, not full)
was able to stalemate the power of the CCU for a good while before
it began to lose the edge.

But that CCU was just ridiculous it repaired everything across the Omniverse,
with a change or two. If this is all true (reading the book as we speak) then CCU>IG where scope of feats is concerned.

We don't tend to use novels as proof...

i always tweet the writers and editors

edit

Originally posted by Galan007

If this is all true (reading the book as we speak)
then CCU>IG where scope of feats is concerned.
Yea, but I noticed I made a typo,
it was Doom (with most of Roma's power)
that lost the edge to the CCU.

Your head's gonna be spinning by the time you get to all the massive action.

So, I did my best to snip out the most informative parts of the story
to compliment the feats I posted.

(from left to right)

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10345177_CCU1.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10345180_CCU2.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10345187_CCU3.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10345194_CCU5.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10345197_CCU6.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10345203_CCU7.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10345214_CCU8.jpg

Continues ...

Continues ...

(from left to right)

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10345219_CCU9.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10345225_CCU10.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10345231_CCU11.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10345235_CCU12.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10345240_CCU13.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10345248_CCU14.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10345252_CCU15.jpg

Excellent posts guys!

So...whats the consensus?

Is it fair to say that 6 CCU's (or even a lone CCU) could equal or surpass the 6 Infinity Gems IF (and only if) you have the right individual at the controls (ie...someone strong enough willed)?

CC>IG

Wish Marvel finally tie in the Beyonders to the Inhuman Mutant

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

Is it fair to say that 6 CCU's (or even a lone CCU) could equal or
surpass the 6 Infinity Gems IF (and only if) you have the
right individual at the controls (ie...someone strong enough willed)?
Imo, under the right circumstances one CCU can stalemate the IG possibly.

Although these feats are grand,
the 616 IG places it's bearer at the post of a Supreme being though below the LT.

CCU has been called "God" in a box.

CCU has had other wondrous feats, the IG as well.

But knowing what the 616 IG signifies, what the 616 Gems (no Nemesis)
did in that other Multiverse was equally incredible,
it's implied power and indeed its actual superiority over Eternity without stipulations,
says a lot,
same goes for the CCU.

Anyhow, imo, it would go as far as a stalemate.