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Assuming that none are worthy of the hammer, who could forcibly break the enchantment using just the strength of their body, and pick the hammer up?

The Hammer rests on a five foot thick floor made up of a mixture of Inertron, Adamantium, Vibranium, and Promethium.

No one above the Sky Father Tier ( That would be Zeus or Odin) Odin can not compete for obvious reasons.

I say....no one. Well, you would need magic from a user who is more powerful than Odin, and by the stips, that's not allowed (not that I know anyone like that lol)

I know a character that can. He's big and Green.

Can't soulless robots lift it? Not having souls meaning they don't register on the enchantment and only have to deal with it's actual weight.

Originally posted by Q99
Can't soulless robots lift it? Not having souls meaning they don't register on the enchantment and only have to deal with it's actual weight.

Oh yes, that's true - you're right.

Doombots take it.

Just by using pure physical strength and being Skyfather and under? No one.

Zeus caught it mid flight and tried to hold on to it but it escaped and returned to Thor's hand. There have been instances where people tried lifting the hammer using machines and failed (happened in Thor 386 or 387) so I don't think robots could do it.

Originally posted by zopzop
Just by using pure physical strength and being Skyfather and under? No one.

Zeus caught it mid flight and tried to hold on to it but it escaped and returned to Thor's hand. There have been instances where people tried lifting the hammer using machines and failed (happened in Thor 386 or 387) so I don't think robots could do it.

Gabriel the Air walker lifted it. He was a robot.

Destroyer can do it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Gabriel the Air walker lifted it. He was a robot.

Odd, yet a crane couldn't lift it.
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/259/cranep.th.jpg

Originally posted by Stoic
I know a character that can. He's big and Green.

Thanos with green body paint?

Hulk could lift it. That's the only person I can think of outside of Odin and possibly Zeus.

Nobody, It was never lifted by anyone under these stips afaik.

Originally posted by Stoic
I know a character that can. He's big and Green.

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk could lift it. That's the only person I can think of outside of Odin and possibly Zeus.

Hulk,Superman.....or Captain Mavel

Originally posted by zopzop
Odd, yet a crane couldn't lift it.
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/259/cranep.th.jpg

I know, right???
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/qwirtle/Gabe.jpg

Thor 305, so your crane scan could possibly trump it (being of later issue). But I stand by my assertion a random Doombot could do it...

Mjolnir can be lifted by mechanical devices under at least some portrayals. It's one of those "whatever the writer wants" type of situation. The reason something like the Destroyer can despite having a soul is because it's also a creation of Odin. You could also explain the crane scene by arguing that someone was directly operating it, so the enchantment took effect.

In regards to the thread, no one can through raw physical force/strength. The enchantment is too powerful, you'd need to outsmart. Tbh, it probably needs an upgrade from Odin, for a spell that was created millions of years ago it's held up pretty well, but it should be more absolute.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Mjolnir can be lifted by mechanical devices under at least some portrayals. It's one of those "whatever the writer wants" type of situation. The reason something like the Destroyer can despite having a soul is because it's also a creation of Odin. You could also explain the crane scene by arguing that someone was directly operating it, so the enchantment took effect.

In regards to the thread, no one can through raw physical force/strength. The enchantment is too powerful, you'd need to outsmart. Tbh, it probably needs an upgrade from Odin, for a spell that was created millions of years ago it's held up pretty well, but it should be more absolute.

Agreed, that was what I was thinking about with regards to the crane. If you had a robot operating the crane's controls, perhaps it might have been able to lift it. Magneto has also done it, but of course, that was using his powers, not brute force.

Yea, it kind of falls apart there. If a crane being operated by a mortal can't, Magneto shouldn't be able to smart it either.

But like I said, Odin should upgrade it so theirs no circumventing the enchantment.

Originally posted by Stoic
I know a character that can. He's big and Green.

Swamp Thing?

Hulk could very well do it. Crushing and over powering The Serpent's mallet wasn't too difficult, so why not.

Also, Savage Hulk found a fun way to utilise Mjolnir, so maybe all it takes is to use Thor as a meat-glove?

Another point, Rulk casually bashed away with it too in space, so gravity can affect it too.

Lol, Hulk isn't overpowering Mjolnir's worthy enchantment.

Gravity can affect it to but there's was something more in play there though. Odin's death weakened the enchantment or whatever. There was a similar occurrence during Thomas' run but that wasn't intended to be a problem in Thor's main book.

Man, Loeb pissed me off with his blatant disregard for continuity. At least some writers pretend they care.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Lol, Hulk isn't overpowering Mjolnir's worthy enchantment.

Gravity can affect it to but there's was something more in play there though. Odin's death weakened the enchantment or whatever. There was a similar occurrence during Thomas' run but that wasn't intended to be a problem in Thor's main book.

Man, Loeb pissed me off with his blatant disregard for continuity. At least some writers pretend they care.

That didn't make much sense, unless of course Rulk had thrown Mjolnir to the Lagrange point....but gravity is still an issue, even in space.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Agreed, that was what I was thinking about with regards to the crane. If you had a robot operating the crane's controls, perhaps it might have been able to lift it. Magneto has also done it, but of course, that was using his powers, not brute force.

Yeah I can remember somebody (Cobra and Hyde?) lifting it in the early days using a crane. But it was supposed to be some sort of super atomic crane, as if the strength of the crane was a factor!

So maybe a robot with a regular crane or superhuman with atomic crane can do it.

I wonder if Machine Man, Ultron, Vision, etc can just pick it up?

That dude who busted inertron?

Juggernaut - if the adamantium floor had enough of a groove in it to give him the space to start his arm moving beneath the hammer, would his unstoppable momentum be able to pick the hammer up?

Can Magneto or Graviton pick it up from the ground when not in flight? What if Graviton cancelled gravity around it so it was exactly weightless on the ground (not actually floating). Could he then pick it up the way Red Hulk did in space? Not strictly by strength I know, but...

Also, Amazo, and by extension, could Vixen do it back when she was mimicking her team mates? Black Alice?

A high end hector hall might do it by outright breaking odin's enchants.

I had asked this once before and never got an answer (at least, as far as I remember): what if the hammer were floating in space? If someone grabbed it, would Mjolnir continue to drift as if no one was there? Isn't the point of the enchantment, ultimately, that no one can use Mjolnir (the "can't lift it" is just a familiar expression of that rule, but it should not to be taken so literally)?

Originally posted by Mindship
I had asked this once before and never got an answer (at least, as far as I remember): what if the hammer were floating in space? If someone grabbed it, would Mjolnir continue to drift as if no one was there? Isn't the point of the enchantment, ultimately, that no one can use Mjolnir (the "can't lift it" is just a familiar expression of that rule, but it should not to be taken so literally)? This reminds me of a d&d scenario where a party purchased quite a few immovable rods to completely break the game. They basically eluded all obstacles using the rods until the dm decied enough of these shennanigans and had them fixed in space so as the planet moved they were left behind. End result used them as siege weapons because of the speed the planet moving through space and rotating basically meant that anything hitting them was moving at a ridiculous pace by comparison.

Red Hulk lifted in space because there was no gravity, so anyone with low level gravity manip should be able to do the same thing on a planet right? That's a long list...

Didn't Rulk grab it while it was still inThor's hand?
To get around the enchantment with a gravity loophole...I dunno, kind of defeats the point of the enchantment, making the "can't lift it" too literal.

Originally posted by Mindship
Didn't Rulk grab it while it was still inThor's hand?
To get around the enchantment with a gravity loophole...I dunno, kind of defeats the point of the enchantment, making the "can't lift it" too literal.

No...Rulk grabbed it...beat on Thor with it...spinner it and then flew with it to the moon while having Thor in his other arm.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Gabriel the Air walker lifted it. He was a robot.

A machine can't be worthy or unworthy, so it makes sense...

A machine shouldn't be able to tap into it's powers, though.

True. I guess it mustn't have a soul? So Red Tornado cannot, nor can the Vision, but a Doombot/Amazo can?

The question is

Is the enchantment stronger than the durability of the hammer itself?
Meaning, will the hammer break in pieces if someone was strong enough?

If the durability is stronger then WBH, Superman (at highest showings), etc. can lift it.

Originally posted by Mindship
Didn't Rulk grab it while it was still inThor's hand?

To get around the enchantment with a gravity loophole...I dunno, kind of defeats the point of the enchantment, making the "can't lift it" too literal.

Yeah, grabbing the hammer while Thor's hanging on, I can see.

The gravity thing, that's just stupid.

Physically no one can, even Marvels editor has said so.

Originally posted by carver9
No...Rulk grabbed it...beat on Thor with it...spinner it and then flew with it to the moon while having Thor in his other arm.

Ugh, I completely forgot about that.

Not only did he wrest Mjolnir from his hand, he actually used it's power (I recall lightning strikes) and flew with it.

It's best to just completely ignore the Rulk incident. It made no sense.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Ugh, I completely forgot about that.

Not only did he wrest Mjolnir from his hand, he actually used it's power (I recall lightning strikes) and flew with it.

It's best to just completely ignore the Rulk incident. It made no sense.

Da**...lightning did come from it. I agree, this should be ignored...the writer clearly wasn't thinking when he wrote that.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Ugh, I completely forgot about that.

Not only did he wrest Mjolnir from his hand, he actually used it's power (I recall lightning strikes) and flew with it.

It's best to just completely ignore the Rulk incident. It made no sense.

Perhaps he absorbed Thor`s worthiness along with odin force

Originally posted by Mshinu
Perhaps he absorbed Thor`s worthiness along with odin force

You jest, but didn't Rogue do that once?

He did absorb the Odin Force during that fight. That could have been one of the reasons but if it was, why would he say what he said about taking the hammer in space if the Odin Force had anything to do with it. It was just bad writing imo.

Rulk stated that he'd studied Thor and that he knew that, in space, he would be able to take mjolnir from Thor.

I don't think the absorption of Thor's powers came into it, with regards to mjolnir.

Also, Maestro has Mjolnir in his trophy room too, which would indicate that it was lifted and moved there after Thor had been killed, so ...

Anyway, Mjolnir like The Gem of Cyttorak, tops out at somewhere far below the enabling force (Odinforce and Cyttorak respectively). So anyone who can come close to matching Odin's level of power should be able to lift it.

There are no absolutes in comics, aside from Hulk >>> Thanos that is

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You jest, but didn't Rogue do that once?

Uber/Claremont Rogue absorbed Thor's power but was still unable to lift Mjolnir:
http://s4.hubimg.com/u/3131087_f520.jpg

She did manage at one point to absorb Thor's actual life essence but this was a What If:

Originally posted by carver9
Da**...lightning did come from it. I agree, this should be ignored...the writer clearly wasn't thinking when he wrote that.

Yea, Loeb was being stupid.

The answer should be pretty simple: Anyone more powerful than Odin.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
The answer should be pretty simple: Anyone more powerful than Odin. not necessarily. It's like the sledgehammer approach vs scalpel approach. Primary Adamantium is utterly indestructable to direct attacks that can be planet shattering to scale. hit it with a molecular deconstructor and it's as useless as any other material. Same could be said for magics. If you have the keys i.e. the knowledge on the enchant and how to undo it. Which in all of marvel I'm pretty sure someone would know it namely Dr. Strange considering he knew enough to help thor fix the damn thing, then there is no need to brute force overpower it.

i wonder if mjolnir can be treated like a GL ring. Say if Doom can get tissue samples from captain america or thor and make the hammer "believe" the person is worthy...

Originally posted by Uriel005
not necessarily. It's like the sledgehammer approach vs scalpel approach. Primary Adamantium is utterly indestructable to direct attacks that can be planet shattering to scale. hit it with a molecular deconstructor and it's as useless as any other material. Same could be said for magics. If you have the keys i.e. the knowledge on the enchant and how to undo it. Which in all of marvel I'm pretty sure someone would know it namely Dr. Strange considering he knew enough to help thor fix the damn thing, then there is no need to brute force overpower it.
didn't Nul rip apart an adamantium net recently?
I don't believe that there are any truly "indestructible" materials (or characters for that matter) within comics. It's all about different orders of power.

Captain America's shield was very durable and then got trashed, Adamantium has been trashed (and retconned) in the past and will most certainly be in the future.

the scalpel/sledgehammer analogy only works up to a point and within a specific context.

if you want to destroy somebody's brain, you can use a scalpel and do it delicately or use a sledgehammer and liquefy the damned thing.

When the objective is destruction (or in this case, over powering an enchantment) then finesse doesn't come into consideration. more power is all that is required. If the requirement is to be efficient about it, then yes, magics would make more sense than reaching towards skyfather orders of power.

Originally posted by janus77
didn't Nul rip apart an adamantium net recently?
I don't believe that there are any truly "indestructible" materials (or characters for that matter) within comics. It's all about different orders of power.

Captain America's shield was very durable and then got trashed, Adamantium has been trashed (and retconned) in the past and will most certainly be in the future.

the scalpel/sledgehammer analogy only works up to a point and within a specific context.

if you want to destroy somebody's brain, you can use a scalpel and do it delicately or use a sledgehammer and liquefy the damned thing.

When the objective is destruction (or in this case, over powering an enchantment) then finesse doesn't come into consideration. more power is all that is required. If the requirement is to be efficient about it, then yes, magics would make more sense than reaching towards skyfather orders of power.


http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/4729/1012201115.th.jpghttp://img831.imageshack.us/img831/7193/1012201116.th.jpghttp://img822.imageshack.us/img822/9906/1012201117.th.jpg

Originally posted by janus77
didn't Nul rip apart an adamantium net recently?
I don't believe that there are any truly "indestructible" materials (or characters for that matter) within comics. It's all about different orders of power.

Captain America's shield was very durable and then got trashed, Adamantium has been trashed (and retconned) in the past and will most certainly be in the future.

the scalpel/sledgehammer analogy only works up to a point and within a specific context.

if you want to destroy somebody's brain, you can use a scalpel and do it delicately or use a sledgehammer and liquefy the damned thing.

When the objective is destruction (or in this case, over powering an enchantment) then finesse doesn't come into consideration. more power is all that is required. If the requirement is to be efficient about it, then yes, magics would make more sense than reaching towards skyfather orders of power.

If Adamantium was destroyed then it was secondary Adamantium. That's the only reason secondary Adamantium was created, to have impressive Adamantium breaking feats... without nerfing real Adamantium. One reason you can tell it wasn't Primary Adamantium is that it was a net... you can't make a net out of primary Adamantium... it would be a grate, because Primary Adamantium isn't malleable. Outside of the initial Adamantium appearance prior to the Secondary Adamantium retcon, Primary Adamantium has never been destroyed or damage in continuity outside of matter manip.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/amaterasu_no_ki/Macros/michshitjustgotreal-2.gif

Originally posted by Sin I AM
i wonder if mjolnir can be treated like a GL ring. Say if Doom can get tissue samples from captain america or thor and make the hammer "believe" the person is worthy...

Recently Odin made the hammer fall to the ground while Thor was holding it, so I'm not sure that even a perfect clone would be able to find a way around the enchantment.

I don't believe that net was primary adamantium

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If Adamantium was destroyed then it was secondary Adamantium. That's the only reason secondary Adamantium was created, to have impressive Adamantium breaking feats... without nerfing real Adamantium. One reason you can tell it wasn't Primary Adamantium is that it was a net... you can't make a net out of primary Adamantium... it would be a grate, because Primary Adamantium isn't malleable. Outside of the initial Adamantium appearance prior to the Secondary Adamantium retcon, Primary Adamantium has never been destroyed or damage in continuity outside of matter manip.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/amaterasu_no_ki/Macros/michshitjustgotreal-2.gif

So what is that stuff in between Wolverine joints that allows him the ability to move?

Originally posted by iceman24567
I don't believe that net was primary adamantium

Why isn't it?

Originally posted by carver9
So what is that stuff in between Wolverine joints that allows him the ability to move?

Cartilage.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If Adamantium was destroyed then it was secondary Adamantium. That's the only reason secondary Adamantium was created, to have impressive Adamantium breaking feats... without nerfing real Adamantium. One reason you can tell it wasn't Primary Adamantium is that it was a net... you can't make a net out of primary Adamantium... it would be a grate, because Primary Adamantium isn't malleable. Outside of the initial Adamantium appearance prior to the Secondary Adamantium retcon, Primary Adamantium has never been destroyed or damage in continuity outside of matter manip.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/amaterasu_no_ki/Macros/michshitjustgotreal-2.gif


This isn't entirely true because if it were Alkema would be incapable of moving her primary adamantium joints. perhaps I'm wrong though, do you have any insight that I may be missing?

Originally posted by carver9
Why isn't it? It wasn't stated as such? Primary adamantium has never been "broken"?

Originally posted by janus77
Rulk stated that he'd studied Thor and that he knew that, in space, he would be able to take mjolnir from Thor.

I don't think the absorption of Thor's powers came into it, with regards to mjolnir.

Not only did he wrest Mjolnir from Thor's hands, he actually wielded it as well. There's no making sense of that.

Loeb threw in some bullshit explanation of Odin being dead (Ala Thomas' run) but that clearly wasn't the case anymore. At the end of the day, Loeb would have had Thor beaten down by a Mjolnir wielding Rulk either way, because it was cool. He didn't care if it made sense or not, he said as much.

Originally posted by janus77
Also, Maestro has Mjolnir in his trophy room too, which would indicate that it was lifted and moved there after Thor had been killed, so ...

Are you implying that Maestro lifted Mjolnir and brought it to the trophy room?

That was Rick Jones' trophy room (Thor told him a magic word or something so that he could be worthy) and it was made pretty clear that Maestro still couldn't lift the hammer:
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4788/incrediblehulkfutureimp.th.jpg

Hulk is never going to lift Mjolnir. At least as long as some writers have common sense.

Originally posted by iceman24567
It wasn't stated as such? Primary adamantium has never been "broken"?


The Hulk did crush it though. Ultron of the Secret Wars was composed of primary adamantium right?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cartilage.

So Colossus can split Wolverine in half or rip his arms off?

Originally posted by iceman24567
It wasn't stated as such? Primary adamantium has never been "broken"?

It was stated that it was adamantium. It was never stated that he was wrapped in secondary adamantium. Hulk ripped that sh**.

Originally posted by Stoic
This isn't entirely true because if it were Alkema would be incapable of moving her primary adamantium joints. perhaps I'm wrong though, do you have any insight that I may be missing?

Lady Ultron was liquid metal.

Originally posted by carver9
So Colossus can split Wolverine in half or rip his arms off?

No, because his bones are interlocked, but that's not what you asked originally.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If Adamantium was destroyed then it was secondary Adamantium. That's the only reason secondary Adamantium was created, to have impressive Adamantium breaking feats... without nerfing real Adamantium. One reason you can tell it wasn't Primary Adamantium is that it was a net... you can't make a net out of primary Adamantium... it would be a grate, because Primary Adamantium isn't malleable. Outside of the initial Adamantium appearance prior to the Secondary Adamantium retcon, Primary Adamantium has never been destroyed or damage in continuity outside of matter manip.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/amaterasu_no_ki/Macros/michshitjustgotreal-2.gif
I always preferred Prince, now I know why.

Anyway, nothing mentioned about secondary adamantium and nets made from non-malleable metals would in effect, be like chain-mail... so can be done.

Hulk 2 - 0 Adamantium.

Originally posted by carver9
It was stated that it was adamantium. It was never stated that he was wrapped in secondary adamantium. Hulk ripped that sh**.


it cant be since adamantium is not malleable, u should no this being a logan fanboy and all

Originally posted by carver9
It was stated that it was adamantium. It was never stated that he was wrapped in secondary adamantium. Hulk ripped that sh**. Yes and adamantium can either mean secondary or primary . So we are in agreement Hulk ripped what was probably secondary adamantium

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Lady Ultron was liquid metal.

No I'm not referring to the time that Ultron took the form of Janet, and gave Ares the tazer. I'm speaking of a seperate entity named Alkema, who was composed of primary adamantium, which included her joints. The only way that she was stopped was due to Wanda's intervention via hex magic.

Originally posted by carver9
It was stated that it was adamantium. It was never stated that he was wrapped in secondary adamantium. Hulk ripped that sh**.

Secondary Adamantium is far and away the most common type of Adamantium, as such no clarification is required when mentioning it, because that's the assumption from the get go. Primary Adamantium is extremely rare, and if it shows up it will be addressed as such. Secondary Adamantium is like a Doombot or a Thanos clone, unless we are specifically told that it wasn't a Doombot or Thanos clone... then it probably was. Unless you are told something is Primary Adamantium (like Ultron, Citadel and Wolverine's skeleton), and then it gets broke... then it's not Primary Adamantium.

I wonder if you hooked an unbreakable harness up on the Juggernaut, and attached it to Mjolnir, if he would be able to move the hammer or drag it through brute unstoppable force?

Thor dented Adamantium.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Secondary Adamantium is far and away the most common type of Adamantium, as such no clarification is required when mentioning it, because that's the assumption from the get go. Primary Adamantium is extremely rare, and if it shows up it will be addressed as such. Secondary Adamantium is like a Doombot or a Thanos clone, unless we are specifically told that it wasn't a Doombot or Thanos clone... then it probably was. Unless you are told something is Primary Adamantium (like Ultron, Citadel and Wolverine's skeleton), and then it gets broke... then it's not Primary Adamantium.


Alkema was said to be fully composed of the good stuff though. this included her joints. Maybe it was just poor writing.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Secondary Adamantium is far and away the most common type of Adamantium, as such no clarification is required when mentioning it, because that's the assumption from the get go. Primary Adamantium is extremely rare, and if it shows up it will be addressed as such. Secondary Adamantium is like a Doombot or a Thanos clone, unless we are specifically told that it wasn't a Doombot or Thanos clone... then it probably was. Unless you are told something is Primary Adamantium (like Ultron, Citadel and Wolverine's skeleton), then it's not.
I disagree, the whole focus of the Vampire nation's strategy was to buy time to get the netting ready to capture/halt Nul.

They knew there was nothing in their arsenal that could make even the slightest impact on Nul, they would not skimp on the Adamantium. It was meant to be their "last best hope". What's the point of Adamantium netting if the type they're obtaining as already been broken by Savage Hulk before? they wouldn't count on it doing anything against Nul. Makes no sense.

Until the comics actually say otherwise, the assumption is that netting was Primary Adamantium, imo.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No, because his bones are interlocked, but that's not what you asked originally.

Don't make sense.

Originally posted by Stoic
Alkema was said to be fully composed of the good stuff though. this included her joints. Maybe it was just poor writing.

I don't remember that, but she was a robot, which allows from robotic / mechanical solutions to the joints that differ from biologically human, so it's possible without changing the flexibility of the metal. Sometimes Wolverine even is even depicted with a robotic skeleton.

So I'm sure people in here have proof that was secondary adamantium besides the "I don't like it" argument. Scans.

I've been trying to google around and it looks like it's never happened (writer inconsistency with robots/machines being ignored).

This is crazy when you realize that Thor has had a sh|tload of appearances throughout his what? 50 or so years as a character. I'd see this as indirect proof that Odin is greater than beings like Cytorrak whose enchantments on Juggernaut have been broken.

You know what, aside from the Evil Eye, has ANYONE/ANYTHING ever broken/overpowered one of Mjolnir's enchantments?

Originally posted by carver9
So I'm sure people in here have proof that was secondary adamantium besides the "I don't like it" argument. Scans. LOL classic carver shit. When did anybody say "i don't like" it or anything even close? The fact is unless its stated to be primary we don't know for sure what it

Originally posted by janus77
I disagree, the whole focus of the Vampire nation's strategy was to buy time to get the netting ready to capture/halt Nul.

They knew there was nothing in their arsenal that could make even the slightest impact on Nul, they would not skimp on the Adamantium. It was meant to be their "last best hope". What's the point of Adamantium netting if the type they're obtaining as already been broken by Savage Hulk before? they wouldn't count on it doing anything against Nul. Makes no sense.

Until the comics actually say otherwise, the assumption is that netting was Primary Adamantium, imo.

You could say the exact same thing for every single character / situation that has ever involved the use of Secondary Adamantium in a plan. Why didn't they just use Primary Adamantium? Because it is excitingly rare and hard to come by? Because if they had... they would have succeed and the plot would have stalled? Who knows, and who cared. Plot no jutsu. Secondary Adamantum is the default type of Adamantium that shows up, no one specifies "Secondary Adamantium," they do specify Primary though... because it hardly ever shows up.

And chain mail net? Wtf? That thing was corded wires.

Originally posted by zopzop
I've been trying to google around and it looks like it's never happened (writer inconsistency with robots/machines being ignored).

This is crazy when you realize that Thor has had a sh|tload of appearances throughout his what? 50 or so years as a character. I'd see this as indirect proof that Odin is greater than beings like Cytorrak whose enchantments on Juggernaut have been broken.

You know what, aside from the Evil Eye, has ANYONE/ANYTHING ever broken/overpowered one of Mjolnir's enchantments?

Mephisto once destroyed/recreated Mjolnir on a whim because he was supreme in his realm or whatever. Some maintain it was an illusion (He was messing with Thor's head most of the time). I don't know whether or not that's true, but I find it very hard to believe that Mephisto has that kind of power at disposal based on his interactions with Thor and the rest of the Asgardian Universe (Hela, Odin, Enchantress etc). Not even Odin himself should have that type of power at disposal.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Mephisto once destroyed/recreated Mjolnir on a whim because he was supreme in his realm or whatever. Some maintain it was an illusion (He was messing with Thor's head most of the time). I don't know whether or not that's true, but I find it very hard to believe that Mephisto has that kind of power at disposal based on his interactions with Thor and the rest of the Asgardian Universe.

Yeah I remember that but he's a notorious liar. Didn't he also raise "Odin" from the dead and parade him around Thor? IMHO the hammer melting was an illusion like the Odin resurrection.

Having said that, he does have some damn impressive showings (vs Galactus, Satannish, etc...) and some outright sad ones. But I still don't think he can do anything to Mjolnir's enchantments.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Mephisto once destroyed/recreated Mjolnir on a whim because he was supreme in his realm or whatever. Some maintain it was an illusion (He was messing with Thor's head most of the time). I don't know whether or not that's true, but I find it very hard to believe that Mephisto has that kind of power at disposal based on his interactions with Thor and the rest of the Asgardian Universe.

I think he just meant breaking / overruling the enchantment, not the actually physical hammer.

Outside of Odin, as far as I can remember the only thing that has been able to override the enchantment is loop holes in physics (gravity / magnetism) and that it isn't word specifically enough to account for robots.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah I remember that but he's a notorious liar. Didn't he also raise "Odin" from the dead and parade him around Thor? IMHO the hammer melting was an illusion like the Odin resurrection.

Having said that, he does have some damn impressive showings (vs Galactus, Satannish, etc...) and some outright sad ones. But I still don't think he can do anything to Mjolnir's enchantments.

Someone said that it was retconned/explained that Mephisto was able to hold Mjolnir from Thor for a moment ala Zeus in a comic. I've never been able to find this scene so it could just be bullshit (If anyone has any information regarding such an incident, it'd be appreciated). It would make a lot more sense to me though, in his realm, Mephisto is supposed to be a peer to the big boys like Odin. At least on a good day, like you said, his had some bad showings.

Either way, as far as track records go, Mjolnir's is absolutely excellent. It hasn't even been broken in What If's or alternate reality comics as far as I know.

Edit: I think there might've be one scene where it's outmaneuvered through powerful magic during the Silver Age. I'll need to double check.

Also onslaught when he overpowered Thor he tried to lift hammer but couldn't etc... Also rulk could only lift mjolinir cos Odin was in Odin sleep i think during that time Hence the enchatment forces were weak making it easy for rulk to lift and use....

Adamantium is adamantium unless stated otherwise. Unproven fanboy mythcrafting doesn't change that and irrelevent interiews are against the rules.

Mephisto is supreme in his dimension when he wants to be. Nothing else to it.

As for the actual thread, nobody below Skyfather does it with pure strength. They'd need a loophole, e.g., zero gravity, artificial lifeform, etc.

I wonder if Classic Aquarian can do it via his null field. That null field has some stupendous feats to its' name, most impressively dealing with Nth Man (a confirmed universe devourer) and shutting down the Quantum Bands. He'd probably be able to lift it via the whole "nullifying gravity" thing.

lol at the adamantium talk.

We don't assume it's secondary until someone says it's primary... it's the exact opposite, especially considering everytime secondary adamantium is broken, it's been said to be secondary. In fact, the only adamantium that hasn't been said to be secondary that's been broken is by Morlun and Nuul.

^

The fact that this sounds so smart and intelligent is an indictment on the forums as a whole.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Adamantium is adamantium unless stated otherwise. Unproven fanboy mythcrafting doesn't change that and irrelevent interiews are against the rules.


Secondary Adamantium... is still Adamantium. It is by far the most common type of Adamantium, unless explicitly stated otherwise that is type of Adamantium being used.


Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
We don't assume it's secondary until someone says it's primary..

Yes we do.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb


For instance? The time it was retcon'd that Ultron was only secondary adamantium when Hulk crushed him? When else?


Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
In fact, the only adamantium that hasn't been said to be secondary that's been broken is by Morlun and Nuul.

And the time Hulk rolled Blastaar up in Adamantium? Or when Zues' force field sliced up some missiles? Or when Cyclops' blasts were stated as being capable of pulverizing Adamantium? ect ect ect. The times Primary Adamantium has shown up on panel are few and far between.

Originally posted by Stoic
I know a character that can. He's big and Green.

Looooooooooooooool

Hope you're not serious, bro.

Lol I didn't mean to take this that far off track I was just using adamantium as an example of the so called unbreakable like Mjolnir's enhancements not being as completely invulnerable as one would like to think.

I think no one can do it through physical means.Only people who can cancel out the enchantment could do it.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
For instance? The time it was retcon'd that Ultron was only secondary adamantium when Hulk crushed him? When else?




And the time Hulk rolled Blastaar up in Adamantium? Or when Zues' force field sliced up some missiles? Or when Cyclops' blasts were stated as being capable of pulverizing Adamantium? ect ect ect. The times Primary Adamantium has shown up on panel are few and far between. The statue Thor smashed Hulk with, the Ultron's in Unlimited, the Ultron Simon head bashed, pretty much every time except the two I named and I forgot about the Zeus bird. 3 times.

I'm 97 percent sure that the adamantium Blastaar was rolled up in was retconned. Same with the adamantium wall Blastaar smashed.

Cyclops has been said to be able to do a lot of shit, it doesn't mean he can. That statement means nothing... unless you want them to retcon the statement by saying that they actually meant Cyclops can only pulverize secondary adamantium... which is stupid. Almost as dumb as Cyclops as a serious character.

^ It's pathetic that this even needs to be explained. Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Secondary Adamantium... is still Adamantium. It is by far the most common type of Adamantium, unless explicitly stated otherwise that is type of Adamantium being used. And primary adamantium... is still adamantium. If it's secondary adamantium, it's stated to be. That's how it's always been. When it's not stated to be secondary, it's primary adamantium. Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yes we do.

For instance? The time it was retcon'd that Ultron was only secondary adamantium when Hulk crushed him? When else? You do because somehow you think Wolverine's formidability would be vicariously impugned. The comics world doesn't revolve around Wolverine. Stop making up myths.

That wasn't retconned. Ever. And Hulk dented him slightly. At least get the established facts straight before trying to spin your myths. Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And the time Hulk rolled Blastaar up in Adamantium? Or when Zues' force field sliced up some missiles? Or when Cyclops' blasts were stated as being capable of pulverizing Adamantium? ect ect ect. The times Primary Adamantium has shown up on panel are few and far between. That was an alloy of adamantium. I've already posted that scan several times. And it wasn't due to a retcon, it's stated directly in the comic itself. And why wouldn't a magic forcefield with the power of Zeus slice adamantium? Odin's brother completely shattered Cap's shield like a tortilla chip. You think Skyfathers don't have that level of power? As for statements made about Cyclops, nobody cares about irrelevant statements that are unproven.

Try coming up with on-panel proof that all appearances of adamantium are secondary and inferior instead of just being normal primary adamantium.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Swamp Thing?

I said this half seriously on page one in response to stoic....but the more I think about it, the more plausible it seems....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I said this half seriously on page one in response to stoic....but the more I think about it, the more plausible it seems.... arguable actually depending on the run ST is >>> than Odin.

Also, pre DCnU, he was vegetable matter that tried to replicate Alec Holland (rather than Alec inhabiting plant matter). Which suggests to me two options for negating the enchantment:

1, just like an android, he can lift it; or
2, if not, then he can use vines etc to move it, like Magneto using his powers to move it - and who's to argue where his body ends and the surrounding vegetation begins?

Then of course, there's option 3, as Uriel005 said - he just flat outright breaks Odin's magic (depending on which ST).

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
The statue Thor smashed Hulk with, the Ultron's in Unlimited, the Ultron Simon head bashed, pretty much every time except the two I named and I forgot about the Zeus bird. 3 times.

I'm 97 percent sure that the adamantium Blastaar was rolled up in was retconned. Same with the adamantium wall Blastaar smashed.

Cyclops has been said to be able to do a lot of shit, it doesn't mean he can. That statement means nothing... unless you want them to retcon the statement by saying that they actually meant Cyclops can only pulverize secondary adamantium... which is stupid. Almost as dumb as Cyclops as a serious character.

You and Dumb are pretty humorous with your examples of alleged citations of Secondary Adamantium, from the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. Kurt Buiesk invented Secondary Adamantium in 1999. The only example you've cited where the term Secondary Adamantium was used was in Ultron Unlimited... because that was the arc Buiesk created Secondary Adamantium in. Why? To retcon all the examples of Adamantium being destroyed, and making Adamantium indestucatble again. Every example of Adamantium being destroyed or damaged prior to Ultron Unlimted was retcon'd by that story arch, and every example since fallows suit and is Secondary Adamantium.

The statue Thor through Hulk into was never stated to be secondary adamantium (obviously since it was an issue before 99), it was referenced as pure adamantium. The Ultron who's head Wonderman crushed was just stated to be adamantium (again... an issue before the creation of Secondary Adamantium), not secondary (and Busiek retcon'd WM crushing Ultron's head IIRC). Prior to Buiesk's Avengers run those were all examples of Adamantium being destroyed and post Ultron Unlimted they were retcon'd to Secondary.



Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And primary adamantium... is still adamantium. If it's secondary adamantium, it's stated to be. That's how it's always been. When it's not stated to be secondary, it's primary adamantium. You do because somehow you think Wolverine's formidability would be vicariously impugned. The comics world doesn't revolve around Wolverine. Stop making up myths.


http://image.com.com/tv/images/genie_images/story/2012_usa/t/TVD-3x11/TVD-3x11_eyebrows.gif

Secondary Adamantium = Adamantium

Primary Adamantium = True Adamantium or Primary Adamantium

If the narration simply says Adamantium, it's referring to Secondary Adamantium. Fact, stop making up myths. Primary Adamantium has never been destroyed or damaged, all examples of Adamantium being destroyed are Secondary.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That wasn't retconned. Ever. And Hulk dented him slightly. At least get the established facts straight before trying to spin your myths. That was an alloy of adamantium. I've already posted that scan several times. And it wasn't due to a retcon, it's stated directly in the comic itself. And why wouldn't a magic forcefield with the power of Zeus slice adamantium? Odin's brother completely shattered Cap's shield like a tortilla chip. You think Skyfathers don't have that level of power? As for statements made about Cyclops, nobody cares about irrelevant statements that are unproven.


It was retcon'd, every single instance of Adamantium being damaged prior to 1999 was retcon'd.

Anyway, I'm going to ignore the fact that you are citing supposed examples of Secondary Adamantium prior to the existence of Secondary Adamantium in continuity and indulge you anyway. Adamantium is an steel alloy... even Primary Adamantium is an steel alloy. That's what it is. The word alloy isn't a synonym for Secondary Adamantium. It's Secondary Adamantium because it was broken, not because it was an alloy.

A Skyfather can matter manip and weaken the subatomic structure of Adamantium or Cap's shield, the magic force field was just laser razor wire.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You and Dumb are pretty humorous with your examples of alleged citations of Secondary Adamantium, from the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. Kurt Buiesk invented Secondary Adamantium in 1999. The only example you've cited where the term Secondary Adamantium was used was in Ultron Unlimited... because that was the arc Buiesk created Secondary Adamantium in. Why? To retcon all the examples of Adamantium being destroyed, and making Adamantium indestucatble again. Every example of Adamantium being destroyed or damaged prior to Ultron Unlimted was retcon'd by that story arch, and every example since fallows suit and is Secondary Adamantium.

The statue Thor through Hulk into was never stated to be secondary adamantium (obviously since it was an issue before 99), it was referenced as pure adamantium. The Ultron who's head Wonderman crushed was just stated to be adamantium (again... an issue before the creation of Secondary Adamantium), not secondary (and Busiek retcon'd WM crushing Ultron's head IIRC). Prior to Buiesk's Avengers run those were all examples of Adamantium being destroyed and post Ultron Unlimted they were retcon'd to Secondary.
I don't get how this is supposed to go against anything I said... even following everything you said as absolute proof.
"It wasn't said at the time to be secondary adamantium, but it was retconned into secondary adamantium"
Really? What ****ing difference does it make? It was still stated to be secondary adamantium. Plus, even in my post I referenced examples being retconned, so your attempt at... whatever the hell it is... doesn't work (maybe?). I mean, you're trying to argue with me over the use of "Stated"
You're arguing semantics.

And no, it doesn't follow suit. The term was invented so it could be used. It isn't invented just so it never has to be said, it's invented so it is used when adamantium is destroyed.
I don't get how this is hard to follow.

If the statue in the Thor/Hulk fight wasn't retconned, then I'm not sure that helps your case.

Plus, I saw your example earlier about Thanos clones and Doombots and popsicles... well guess what, we know every Thanos clone that's been used in comics. And we know every Doombot appearance as well because they referenced it. We didn't assume it wasn't Doom or Thanos, we know. And we know every secondary adamantium breaking appearance as well because it was stated to be... and since you like your semantics... or it was stated later via retcon (which is still stated). EXCEPT those three appearances.
Do you not see a problem there?

i agree with taylor's thoughts on srank's argument.

This is stupid, just because it's only stated to be Adamantium doesn't mean it's automatically secondary Adamantium.

King Thor's eye beams melted both Wolverine's skeleton and Captain America's shield. The Serpent actually snapped the Shield into pieces. Energy empowered by Zeus slicing through Adamantium isn't that far fetched. At a certain level of power, Adamantium's durability is worthless.

Why is this subtopic even being debated? Because it somehow adversely effects Wolverine or something?

Originally posted by leonidas
i agree with taylor's thoughts on srank's argument. Oddly enough, Taylor is my middle name... match made in Heaven if you ask me.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
This is stupid, just because it's only stated to be Adamantium doesn't mean it's automatically secondary Adamantium.

King Thor's eye beams melted both Wolverine's skeleton and Captain America's shield. The Serpent actually snapped the Shield into pieces. Energy empowered by Zeus slicing through Adamantium isn't that far fetched. At a certain level of power, Adamantium's durability is worthless. The Wolverine pride is a powerful force. It's a bad feat if Skyfather power destroys it. Or if a guy who crushed an enchanted hammer akin to Mjolnir destroys it. Or if Morlun... well, that's kind of terrible, but he's really really strong.

Wolverine is indestructible God dammit!

Skrank is just weird when it comes to Wolverine. I've given up trying to make sense of it.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Oddly enough, Taylor is my middle name... match made in Heaven if you ask me.

lucky!1!!

and primary adamantium has been damaged in continuity. not sure why we're supposed to simply ASSUME everything is suddenly secondary adamantium.....

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
I don't get how this is supposed to go against anything I said... even following everything you said as absolute proof.
"It wasn't said at the time to be secondary adamantium, but it was retconned into secondary adamantium"
Really? What ****ing difference does it make? It was still stated to be secondary adamantium. Plus, even in my post I referenced examples being retconned, so your attempt at... whatever the hell it is... doesn't work (maybe?). I mean, you're trying to argue with me over the use of "Stated"
You're arguing semantics.

And no, it doesn't follow suit. The term was invented so it could be used. It isn't invented just so it never has to be said, it's invented so it is used when adamantium is destroyed.
I don't get how this is hard to follow.

If the statue in the Thor/Hulk fight wasn't retconned, then I'm not sure that helps your case.

Plus, I saw your example earlier about Thanos clones and Doombots and popsicles... well guess what, we know every Thanos clone that's been used in comics. And we know every Doombot appearance as well because they referenced it. We didn't assume it wasn't Doom or Thanos, we know. And we know every secondary adamantium breaking appearance as well because it was stated to be... and since you like your semantics... or it was stated later via retcon (which is still stated). EXCEPT those three appearances.
Do you not see a problem there?

...

...

...


Because we are arguing over whether or not Primary Adamantium or Secondary Adamantium is default. I said if something is Primary Adamantium it is stated as such, because it is the rarer form of Adamantium and doesn't appear as often on panel making it the exception. You said Secondary Adamantium is the exception and when it appears on panel it is explicitly stated as being Secondary Adamantium... and you were wrong, because that isn't the case at all. Buiesk made Adamantium unbreakable again and created Secondary Adamantium to retcon all the examples of it being broken without removing them from continuity. He didn't go back and retroactively write the word "Secondary" in front of every appearance of Adamantium, be basically had Iron Man say "If it's broken then it's Secondary Adamantium because True Adamantium is indestructible." Doesn't change the fact that Secondary Adamantium is refered to as Adamantium... which is what we were debating...

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
This is stupid, just because it's only stated to be Adamantium doesn't mean it's automatically secondary Adamantium.

King Thor's eye beams melted both Wolverine's skeleton and Captain America's shield. The Serpent actually snapped the Shield into pieces. Energy empowered by Zeus slicing through Adamantium isn't that far fetched. At a certain level of power, Adamantium's durability is worthless.

King Thor's eye beams melted both Wolverine's skeleton and Captain America's shield: Noncanon

The Serpent actually snapped the Shield into pieces: Matter manip

Energy empowered by Zeus slicing through Adamantium isn't that far fetched: Secondary Adamantium




http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxrpv4xuXQ1rn2uowo1_r1_500.gif

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
...

...

...


Because we are arguing over whether or not Primary Adamantium or Secondary Adamantium is default. I said if something is Primary Adamantium it is stated as such, because it is the rarer form of Adamantium and doesn't appear as often on panel making it the exception. You said Secondary Adamantium is the exception and when it appears on panel it is explicitly stated as being Secondary Adamantium... and you were wrong, because that isn't the case at all. Buiesk made Adamantium unbreakable again and created Secondary Adamantium to retcon all the examples of it being broken without removing them from continuity. He didn't go back and retroactively write the word "Secondary" in front of every appearance of Adamantium, be basically had Iron Man say "If it's broken then it's Secondary Adamantium because True Adamantium is indestructible." Doesn't change the fact that Secondary Adamantium is refered to as Adamantium... which is what we were debating... Stated, retconned, same thing. Semantics is what you're arguing.

Secondary adamantium is referred to as secondary adamantium. Raising a stink about when the word was created doesn't help your case seeing as it gave a term to give to broken adamantium (secondary adamantium), and it wasn't used. I don't know how much clearer this can get, so I'm going to start writing in poems to see if that works.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
King Thor's eye beams melted both Wolverine's skeleton and Captain America's shield: Noncanon

The Serpent actually snapped the Shield into pieces: Matter manip

Energy empowered by Zeus slicing through Adamantium isn't that far fetched: Secondary Adamantium


Counts as far as I'm concerned. He even dented Captain America's shields when he was much less formidable.

Based on?

Based on?

tiamut

arishem

exitar

I think all future references to adamantium was retconned to secondary as well (unless primary is stated). This is because it was retconned that comics in the past used the term 'adamantium' to refer to secondary adamantium. That implies that if characters called secondary adamantium just adamantium then they will continue to.

As far as lifting the hammer, It depends on whether the enchantment is stronger than the durability of the hammer. If it is not, then WBH, Terrax Sentry, and Superman (at his highest) can lift the hammer while being unworthy.

And if it is then no character can lift it without destroying it.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If the narration simply says Adamantium, it's referring to Secondary Adamantium. Fact, stop making up myths. Primary Adamantium has never been destroyed or damaged, all examples of Adamantium being destroyed are Secondary. Underlined part = hysterical Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It was retcon'd, every single instance of Adamantium being damaged prior to 1999 was retcon'd. No, it wasn't. You know you're lying out your a$$. Everyone here has read Ultron Unlimited. The only thing that was stated was that in a fight where Thor destroys an Ultron, Iron Man says that it's defeat was too easy and it couldn't have been adamantium. It turns out it was secondary adamantium. Iron Man never mentions every single appearance of adamantium prior in Marvel history. The import of his observation doesn't, and never did, extend outside those Ultrons in that story.

So stop lying about it. Because that's all you're doing at this point. Utterly, completely, lying. And the fact that this garbage myth is afterbirthed out of Wolverine-related butthurt is ridiculous but it also reveals just how attenuated it is.

In this case ODG is right, I have read a heavy amount of adamantium-related material while doing the Ultron respect thread, and the situation on "Secondary Adamantium" is never addressed in anyway or form that can make you infer the outrageous claims about every word adamantium not meaning primary.

While we are at it, what happened with another random claim about adamantium not being invented by Doctor Myron Mclain? I really hope it wasn't you who came up with that bs Srank

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
I'm 97 percent sure that the adamantium Blastaar was rolled up in was retconned. Same with the adamantium wall Blastaar smashed.Same wall.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That was an alloy of adamantium. I've already posted that scan several times. And it wasn't due to a retcon, it's stated directly in the comic itself. In the comic it is referred to as both adamantium and as adamantium alloy. Both are correct because adamantium is an alloy. It's like brass and brass alloy are the same thing. Maybe if he had called it an alloy of adamantium or something it might have implied maybe it had something different mixed in. But adamantium alloy and adamantium are the same, just like brass alloy and brass or bronze alloy and bronze - you see both terms used.

That being said, I thought the Blastaar case was one that was mentioned by the writers as being part of the recton.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The only thing that was stated was that in a fight where Thor destroys an Ultron, Iron Man says that it's defeat was too easy and it couldn't have been adamantium. It turns out it was secondary adamantium. Iron Man never mentions every single appearance of adamantium prior in Marvel history. The import of his observation doesn't, and never did, extend outside those Ultrons in that story. I think some of the opinions about the extent of the retcon were supposedly based on Busiek's comments somewhere (as the creator of the retcon) rather than what was on panel. ie that somewhere he said something about secondary adamantium being created to retcon the misuses by previious writers that had wrecked the whole point of adamantium. But I don't know what any such comments were exactly.

Originally posted by zopzop
You know what, aside from the Evil Eye, has ANYONE/ANYTHING ever broken/overpowered one of Mjolnir's enchantments? Didn't Immortus remove Odin's enchantment for time travel, taking away Thor's ability to travel through time?

Originally posted by basilisk
Same wall.

In the comic it is referred to as both adamantium and as adamantium alloy. Both are correct because adamantium is an alloy. It's like brass and brass alloy are the same thing.

Maybe if he had called it an alloy of adamantium or something it might have implied maybe it had something different mixed in. From Marvel Team-Up #18 itself, "alloy of adamantium":

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Adamantium01.jpg Originally posted by basilisk
But adamantium alloy and adamantium are the same, just like brass alloy and brass or bronze alloy and bronze - you see both terms used.

That being said, I thought the Blastaar case was one that was mentioned by the writers as being part of the recton.

I think some of the opinions about the extent of the retcon were supposedly based on Busiek's comments somewhere (as the creator of the retcon) rather than what was on panel. ie that somewhere he said something about secondary adamantium being created to retcon the misuses by previious writers that had wrecked the whole point of adamantium. But I don't know what any such comments were exactly. I've had to post the same scan like a dozen times and it never sinks in.

There is no retcon.

That's never been said on-panel, much less an interview (not that it matters as interviews are banned per forum ruling). It's only Wolverine fanboys making sh1t up, repeating it to each other, and regurgitating it to the forum as a whole. It's complete and utter horsesh1t.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
From Marvel Team-Up #18 itself, "alloy of adamantium":

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Adamantium01.jpg I've had to post the same scan like a dozen times and it never sinks in.

There is no retcon.

That's never been said on-panel, much less an interview (not that it matters as interviews are banned per forum ruling). It's only Wolverine fanboys making sh1t up, repeating it to each other, and regurgitating it to the forum as a whole. It's complete and utter horsesh1t. That's why I said maybe - the wording is all over the place and because adamantium is an alloy to begin with, it's ambiguous. The same guy refers to it on panel as just plain "adamantium", as does the narrative in several places, as does as the human torch.

In the sequel story, the same material is referred to as "adamantium alloy" by Blastaar, and as "adamantium" by the sentient factory itself, in the narrative as "adamantium" and "indestructible". FAUST says "I am forged of adamantium... completely indestructible". More strange, Iron Man states in one panel that destroying the FAUST's adamantium construction is beyond the power of Thor's hammer - the same material that was wrecked by Hulk and Blastaar? But then points out that Thor's lightning attack "altered the properties" of the adamantium casing, which FAUST absorbed, "destroying it's invulnerability" of it's adamantium.

So to clear this up, the Marvel.com website says "Due to the prohibitive cost of Adamantium’s creation, many parties have resorted to the use of a somewhat weaker compound named Secondary Adamantium, which was once used to coat the sentient computer named F.A.U.S.T." So that is part of the recton.

As for Wolverine, couldn't care less about what his adamantium is.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
From Marvel Team-Up #18 itself, "alloy of adamantium":

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Adamantium01.jpg

I've had to post the same scan like a dozen times and it never sinks in.

There is no retcon.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
"Due to the prohibitive cost of Adamantium’s creation, many parties have resorted to the use of a somewhat weaker compound named Secondary Adamantium, which was once used to coat the sentient computer named F.A.U.S.T." - Marvel.com - The Official Site.

i'd love to know how often the terms 'primary' and 'secondary' have actually showed up in books. it would be nice if writers were a little more explicit. better yet, it would be great if they simply renamed secondary adamantium. that would clear up any possibility of confusion.

Originally posted by basilisk
"Due to the prohibitive cost of Adamantium’s creation, many parties have resorted to the use of a somewhat weaker compound named Secondary Adamantium, which was once used to coat the sentient computer named F.A.U.S.T." - Marvel.com - The Official Site. People can edit that website. It's why Punisher has a level 7 in fighting skills, a level 6 in strength and a level 4 in... energy projection. facepalm

Websites are even less reliable than interviews, which are less reliable than handbooks. And none of this changes what's stated on-panel or, more appropriately, suffices to prove what's never shown or stated on-panel. Come back to me when you have something on-panel.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
People can edit that website. It's why Punisher has a level 7 in fighting skills, a level 6 in strength and a level 4 in... energy projection. facepalm

Websites are even less reliable than interviews, which are less reliable than handbooks. And none of this changes what's stated on-panel or, more appropriately, suffices to prove what's never shown or stated on-panel. Come back to me when you have something on-panel. In that case it was from a published handbook, rather than just somebody editing. And yeah sure they have errors and people will never agree with power levels, but that is a pretty simple and blatant retcon right there, and published by Marvel.

And you can't just pick your favorite panel and ignore all the others. The panel you showed looked like the only one where it was referred to that way - hence why I said there was the confusion. Both the narrative and FAUST stated on panel a number of times that he was made of "adamantium". Everywhere else it was either called either plain "adamantium" or "adamantium alloy" (primary adamantium being an alloy). In the sequel FAUST keeps calling it just "adamantium", and at one point says "I am forged of adamantium... completely indestructible".

Originally posted by leonidas
i'd love to know how often the terms 'primary' and 'secondary' have actually showed up in books. it would be nice if writers were a little more explicit. better yet, it would be great if they simply renamed secondary adamantium. that would clear up any possibility of confusion. I fully agree. Except that as soon as a character mentions secondary adamantium, you would just know it was going to get busted...

"Vampire warriors - prepare the SECONDARY adamantium net for our foe Nuul!"
"Uhhh... secondary adamantium Lord Dracula? Is that wise?"
"Shut up fool."

Originally posted by basilisk
In that case it was from a published handbook, rather than just somebody editing. And yeah sure they have errors and people will never agree with power levels, but that is a pretty simple and blatant retcon right there, and published by Marvel. Great, another allusion to an anonymous handbook entry. After your airtight website citation. Color me unimpressed. Originally posted by basilisk
And you can't just pick your favorite panel and ignore all the others. The panel you showed looked like the only one where it was referred to that way - hence why I said there was the confusion. Both the narrative and FAUST stated on panel a number of times that he was made of "adamantium". Everywhere else it was either called either plain "adamantium" or "adamantium alloy" (primary adamantium being an alloy). In the sequel FAUST keeps calling it just "adamantium", and at one point says "I am forged of adamantium... completely indestructible". The only ones confused are you and those who want to manufacture confusion to obfuscate how clear it was that an "an alloy of adamantium" was present in that comic. Because obfuscating that clear fact somehow lends pretense to the need for a retcon.

There is no confusion. There is no need for a retcon. There isn't even a retcon on-panel, anywhere. You can keep referring to your websites random anonymous handbook entries or imaginary writer interviews. Once again, none of that matters. Let me know when you have something on-panel that suggests, much less confirms, that all appearances of adamantium were secondary knock-offs.

Until then, this sh1tty myth remains sh1tty myth.

Originally posted by basilisk

"Vampire warriors - prepare the SECONDARY adamantium net for our foe Nuul!"
"Uhhh... secondary adamantium Lord Dracula? Is that wise?"
"Shut up fool."

"Vampires, prepare the adamantium net for Nuul!"

"My Lord, due to the economic downturn, we have only been able to afford secondary adamantium..."

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Great, another allusion to an anonymous handbook entry. After your airtight website citation. Color me unimpressed.

It was from the Marvel Universe Wolverine 2004 Adamantium entry :
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/5727/handbookconfirms.th.jpg

This was a confirmation of the Official Handbook entry on Adamantium in 1984-1986 :
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7215/handbook.th.jpg

But like I learned a long time ago, Handbook entries don't mean anything unless it's backed up by on panel evidence. So I don't think they count unless he can produce scans proving "secondary" Adamantium was used.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
"Vampires, prepare the adamantium net for Nuul!"

"My Lord, due to the economic downturn, we have only been able to afford secondary adamantium..." lol

What about Mordru do u rekcon he can , or could he possibly absorb the odin force etc??

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Underlined part = hysterical No, it wasn't. You know you're lying out your a$$. Everyone here has read Ultron Unlimited. The only thing that was stated was that in a fight where Thor destroys an Ultron, Iron Man says that it's defeat was too easy and it couldn't have been adamantium. It turns out it was secondary adamantium. Iron Man never mentions every single appearance of adamantium prior in Marvel history. The import of his observation doesn't, and never did, extend outside those Ultrons in that story.

So stop lying about it. Because that's all you're doing at this point. Utterly, completely, lying. And the fact that this garbage myth is afterbirthed out of Wolverine-related butthurt is ridiculous but it also reveals just how attenuated it is. Well it had to be more than that (maybe another comic source?) since many sources/sites on the issue have all instances (except two) of adamantium being damaged was really secondary adamantium. Even Marvel's official site had this for many years as well as wikipedia. I'm pretty sure it is mostly likely true and for good reason. I'll research more into it myself.

here's one example:
http://marvel.wikia.com/Adamantium#Secondary_Adamantium

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Great, another allusion to an anonymous handbook entry. After your airtight website citation. Color me unimpressed. The only ones confused are you and those who want to manufacture confusion to obfuscate how clear it was that an "an alloy of adamantium" was present in that comic. Because obfuscating that clear fact somehow lends pretense to the need for a retcon.

Can't get much clearer than FAUST stating on panel "I am forged of adamantium, completely indestructible". You keep referring to one character statement in one single panel by a bungling half-crazed scientist when the other narrative panels and characters in the rest of the story and the sequel say otherwise.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
There is no confusion. There is no need for a retcon. There isn't even a retcon on-panel, anywhere. You can keep referring to your websites random anonymous handbook entries or imaginary writer interviews. Once again, none of that matters. Let me know when you have something on-panel that suggests, much less confirms, that all appearances of adamantium were secondary knock-offs.

Until then, this sh1tty myth remains sh1tty myth. I was just pointing out in the FAUST stories all but one reference calls it adamantium or adamantium alloy and that the official handbook supports the retcon to secondary. The other info in that handbook entry seems largely correct, people just seem to point out anything they don't agree with as an "error". It may surprise people that outside of silly power levels a lot of historical info in the handbooks is actually accurate.

In fact FAUST is the only example of secondary that the handbook gives - as for all the others, you may well be right unless something else comes up. If someone found direct statements from Busiek who wrote the Ultron story and created secondary adamantium, that would be good enough for me as to the intention, at the time written at least. But that's an if...

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
lol

"All we have is the secondary adamantium net? Fine...couple it to the gravity well generators!"

"Yes My Lord..."

"What is the most powerful model we have?? We shall show this Nuul the Vampire Nation is not to be trifled with!"

"Erm...the Jupiter model, my Lord. The budget's been tight this year."

"So...he'll...weigh....several hundred tons. The most powerful Hulk ever. And all we have is Walmart Adamantium, and we've made him slightly heavier....."

"Yes my Lord."

"......"

Originally posted by basilisk
Can't get much clearer than FAUST stating on panel "I am forged of adamantium, completely indestructible". You keep referring to one character statement in one single panel by a bungling half-crazed scientist when the other narrative panels and characters in the rest of the story and the sequel say otherwise. Doesn't get muc clearer than him stating that it was an "alloy of adamantium." For someone so eager to have appearances of adamantium automatically be secondary, you seem oddly ignorant of an on-panel statement that confirms it.

And I pointed out the underlying reason of that behavior: you want to create controversy where there is none to establish pretense that there is widespread confusion which justifies some need for a retcon.

There is no controversy. There is no widespread confusion. There is no retcon. Originally posted by basilisk
I was just pointing out in the FAUST stories all but one reference calls it adamantium or adamantium alloy and that the official handbook supports the retcon to secondary. The other info in that handbook entry seems largely correct, people just seem to point out anything they don't agree with as an "error". It may surprise people that outside of silly power levels a lot of historical info in the handbooks is actually accurate.

In fact FAUST is the only example of secondary that the handbook gives - as for all the others, you may well be right unless something else comes up. If someone found direct statements from Busiek who wrote the Ultron story and created secondary adamantium, that would be good enough for me as to the intention, at the time written at least. But that's an if... Handbooks mean sh1t. Holding out lumps of crap and expecting to sell gold is unrealistic. Don't even try to sell me handbooks as being accurate by any measure.

What's good enough for you is to whine about how all appearances are secondary adamantium and all of a sudden, you don't like when a direct statement in a comic confirms it's secondary adamantium. That's retarded. Stop trying to create confusion where there is none. I know. It doesn't help you when you're trying to justify a myth that supposedly resolves non-existent confusion. But make a better argument with actual on-panel proof. Not anonymous handbook entries or imaginary interviews.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Doesn't get muc clearer than him stating that it was an "alloy of adamantium." For someone so eager to have appearances of adamantium automatically be secondary, you seem oddly ignorant of an on-panel statement that confirms it.

And I pointed out the underlying reason of that behavior: you want to create controversy where there is none to establish pretense that there is widespread confusion which justifies some need for a retcon.

There is no controversy. There is no widespread confusion. There is no retcon. Handbooks mean sh1t. Holding out lumps of crap and expecting to sell gold is unrealistic. Don't even try to sell me handbooks as being accurate by any measure.

What's good enough for you is to whine about how all appearances are secondary adamantium and all of a sudden, you don't like when a direct statement in a comic confirms it's secondary adamantium. That's retarded. Stop trying to create confusion where there is none. I know. It doesn't help you when you're trying to justify a myth that supposedly resolves non-existent confusion. But make a better argument with actual on-panel proof. Not anonymous handbook entries or imaginary interviews.

When it comes to historical data (not power stats) handbooks are very accurate (more than 99%).

immortus did

and to save pages of arguing just tweet the writers who wrote the story

they aren't all asswipes

back in the day adamantium was the toughest metal to cut its different now who's fault is that

the writers

Originally posted by guy222
immortus did



Omg, that's right! Didn't he completely strip the "time travel" power from Mjolnir? Does anyone know how he did this? Scans?

Originally posted by Stoic
I know a character that can. He's big and Green.


im sorry i dont think the green goblin can do it, he has issues with spiderman

Just throwing this out there, but maybe Blue Beetle?

The Scarab treated magic energy like any other kind of energy, and tended to come out with weird stuff like anti magic bubbles...

Not to say the Scarab is > the Odin Force, only that maybe it can use the scalpel approach to get around the enchantment somehow..

Originally posted by carver9
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/4729/1012201115.th.jpghttp://img831.imageshack.us/img831/7193/1012201116.th.jpghttp://img822.imageshack.us/img822/9906/1012201117.th.jpg Ugh! In quality stories, the writers actually try to use a thing called "creativity" instead of a constant amp'ing of strength/power to solve every situation.
I'm surprised they didn't just have the Hulk get strong enough to somehow pull down the Sun and throw it at Dracula. Duh.
They must be taking submissions from Kindergarten classes for story and scene ideas!

fear itself in it's entirety was shit

Originally posted by psycho gundam
fear itself in it's entirety was shit



If only we could "rep" people on this forum.

Originally posted by Horrificus

They must be taking submissions from Kindergarten classes for story and scene ideas!

Read Axe Cop. A kindergartener would probably be an improvement.

Originally posted by zopzop
Omg, that's right! Didn't he completely strip the "time travel" power from Mjolnir? Does anyone know how he did this? Scans?

i look for it

Originally posted by zopzop
Omg, that's right! Didn't he completely strip the "time travel" power from Mjolnir? Does anyone know how he did this? Scans?


He did it by having Thor giving them up towards an illusion of the Space Phantom world. I'll put up the scans later.

Here's info about Mjolnir.

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc412/igniz6/AboutThorsHammerMjolnir2.jpg

Who shall be worthy?

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc412/igniz6/AboutThorsHammerMjolnir5.jpg

No one is capable of breaking the Hammer's enchantment through physical means.

Originally posted by zopzop
Omg, that's right! Didn't he completely strip the "time travel" power from Mjolnir? Does anyone know how he did this? Scans?

Thor sacrificed most of Mjolnir's temporal energies to save the Space Phantom's world:
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/ReturnsPlanetFromLimbo1.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/ReturnsPlanetFromLimbo2.jpg

It doesn't make much sense to me but whatever, it was just an excuse to remove Mjolnir of it's time traveling abilities. Not really sure why it was necessary, when placed in a situation where he should use them, writers just ignore it like most of his abilities.

Originally posted by Stoic
Assuming that none are worthy of the hammer, who could forcibly break the enchantment using just the strength of their body, and pick the hammer up?

The Hammer rests on a five foot thick floor made up of a mixture of Inertron, Adamantium, Vibranium, and Promethium.

No one above the Sky Father Tier ( That would be Zeus or Odin) Odin can not compete for obvious reasons.
http://spider-bob.com/heroes/dc/images/Lobo02.jpg

Originally posted by "Id"
http://spider-bob.com/heroes/dc/images/Lobo02.jpg Do you think the enchantment is stronger or weaker than the durability of the hammer itself?

I asked this question earlier, but no one responded. Let's say that the Juggernaut was rigged up with an unbreakable harness, and it was attached to Mjolnir, would his forward momentum be capable of defying the enchantment by moving it if he were to be walking forward? Basically could his unstoppable gimmick work?

Originally posted by Stoic
I asked this question earlier, but no one responded. Let's say that the Juggernaut was rigged up with an unbreakable harness, and it was attached to Mjolnir, would his forward momentum be capable of defying the enchantment by moving it if he were to be walking forward? Basically could his unstoppable gimmick work?

That's actually a good debate thread.Its like the Immovable Object Vs The Unstoppable Force.Will Juggernaut move Mjolnir with his "unstoppable gimmick" or will Juggernaut be stopped in his tracks?



TBH, I'm not sure.But that's not an example of physical strength ovecoming the enchantment in Mjolnir.That's more of an example of enchantment vs enchantment.

Mjolnir's durability in comparison to the strength of the enchantment? I don't think that's ever been brought up in continuity.

I'd definitely bet on Mjolnir over Juggernaut.

Originally posted by Igniz
That's actually a good debate thread.Its like the Immovable Object Vs The Unstoppable Force.Will Juggernaut move Mjolnir with his "unstoppable gimmick" or will Juggernaut be stopped in his tracks?



TBH, I'm not sure.But that's not an example of physical strength ovecoming the enchantment in Mjolnir.That's more of an example of enchantment vs enchantment.


So when he moves forward bulldozing anything in his path, it's not really a strength feat? I always thought it was lol. Oh and the thought of a tug of war thread between the the Juggernaut, and Mjolnir was something that i have been thinking of launching, but since this thread existed, I just thought to place the question here.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Mjolnir's durability in comparison to the strength of the enchantment? I don't think that's ever been brought up in continuity.

I'd definitely bet on Mjolnir over Juggernaut.

This would make sense because Cain was unable to lift it. Then again like Igniz stated, it's not quite the same.

Originally posted by Stoic
So when he moves forward bulldozing anything in his path, it's not really a strength feat? I always thought it was lol. Oh and the thought of a tug of war thread between the the Juggernaut, and Mjolnir was something that i have been thinking of launching, but since this thread existed, I just thought to place the question here.

You did ask about Juggernaut's forward momentum enchantment.Its clear he would bulldoze building with this enchantment.So Juggernaut bulldozing a building isn't really a strength feat.If Hulk was the one bulldozing a building, this can be taken as a Hulk strength feat since he doesn't have the same enchantment as Juggernaut have.This reminds me of a time when a Juggernaut fan was using the scene were WWH got pushed back claiming it as proof of Juggernaut's strength being superior to Hulk.Yet he neglected to mentioned about Juggernaut's forward momentum.

Originally posted by Stoic
This would make sense because Cain was unable to lift it. Then again like Igniz stated, it's not quite the same.

Eh, it's just Asgardian might has proven superior to Juggernaut's two strongest enchantments. Mjolnir negated his invulnerability, and the God Blast overpowered his unstoppability (Okay, you can ignore that last one).

Plus like you said, Cain couldn't lift it. I honestly see him stopping dead in his tracks if he tried to run and lift Mjolnir as the worthy enchantment should still apply.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Eh, it's just Asgardian might has proven superior to Juggernaut's two strongest enchantments. Mjolnir negated his invulnerability, and the God Blast overpowered his unstoppability (Okay, you can ignore that last one).

Plus like you said, Cain couldn't lift it. I honestly see him stopping dead in his tracks if he tried to run and lift Mjolnir as the worthy enchantment should still apply.


It'd be pretty interesting to see it in a comic. If Cain or Colossus (They made a huge mistake making Peter the Juggernaut) were not able to move it, the implications would be..... ha ha!