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I have been arguing about comic book characters for a long time, and there was always one thing has never settled well with me. The use of strength as a HUGE factor in deciding the outcome of a hypothetical battle.

The fact is, in reality, strength is not always a good indicator of how a person would do in a fight. In fact, I know for a fact that many "extremely strong" people would not do very well in a fight with a weaker opponent who knows how to fight, or, through skill and experience, knows HOW to hit harder, faster, smarter, more frequently, more strategically, etc.

In the case of Striking Feats, it comes down to the skill of the writer to actually come up with how characters will react in a battle.

Before I go on and on about which type of feat is more important, I wanted to see if anybody had any examples of on-panel showings where the writer was actually able to show fighting skill trumping brute strength.

Any ideas?

Captain America beats up Hulk

Striking > Strength

Originally posted by Horrificus
I have been arguing about comic book characters for a long time, and there was always one thing has never settled well with me. The use of strength as a HUGE factor in deciding the outcome of a hypothetical battle.

The fact is, in reality, strength is not always a good indicator of how a person would do in a fight. In fact, I know for a fact that many "extremely strong" people would not do very well in a fight with a weaker opponent who knows how to fight, or, through skill and experience, knows HOW to hit harder, faster, smarter, more frequently, more strategically, etc.

In the case of Striking Feats, it comes down to the skill of the writer to actually come up with how characters will react in a battle.

Before I go on and on about which type of feat is more important, I wanted to see if anybody had any examples of on-panel showings where the writer was actually able to show fighting skill trumping brute strength.

Any ideas?

The problem is when you get two equally skilled or unskilled fighters together. In many cases the stronger opponent wins. Size does not equate strength, so you could have a very strong, but lean person defeat a much larger and equally as strong opponent, simply because of agility. An example of this would be a battle between Colossus (without Cyttorak) and the Thing. Peter is leaner, and likely faster than the Thing, but they are nearly the same in terms of strength. Colossus should win the battle if he were more agile than the Thing, and capable of throwing more punches and kicks.

The problem with real life vs comic fiction, is that you have to factor in striking power vs durability or natural body armor. Captain America has no business knocking out Thor, The Hulk, Sasquatch or any other brute capable of surviving a nuclear strike.

cap's done very well against namor as well. usually when the disparity is THAT great though, strength and durability DO win out, even against enormously skilled opponents. skill often wins out, so long as the strength advantage isn't impossible to overcome.

Originally posted by leonidas
skill often wins out, so long as the strength advantage isn't impossible to overcome. This

Originally posted by leonidas
cap's done very well against namor as well. usually when the disparity is THAT great though, strength and durability DO win out, even against enormously skilled opponents. skill often wins out, so long as the strength advantage isn't impossible to overcome.

In Caps case it should be impossible to overcome, which is why it should be viewed as PIS. I mean if you figure that Spiderman beating the crap out of Firelord is PIS, then Cap Koing a brute capable of weathering far more than his fists, kicks and shield strikes should be categorized under the same banner.

Originally posted by Stoic
In Caps case it should be impossible to overcome, which is why it should be viewed as PIS. I mean if you figure that Spiderman beating the crap out of Firelord is PIS, then Cap Koing a brute capable of weathering far more than his fists, kicks and shield strikes should be categorized under the same banner. No.

Cap is that good

Originally posted by Stoic
In Caps case it should be impossible to overcome, which is why it should be viewed as PIS. I mean if you figure that Spiderman beating the crap out of Firelord is PIS, then Cap Koing a brute capable of weathering far more than his fists, kicks and shield strikes should be categorized under the same banner.

never said otherwise. he did do well--tossed namor around in the fight i'm thinking of, but namor beat him. things like nerve strikes and such MAY be effective against even heavyweights, but by and large i agree with you. it all depends on how great the differential. and we can't forget that while the people guys like cap fight are superhuman and can take nukes and such, cap is also superhuman AND superhumanly skilled. but like i said, i'm willing to suspend disbelief--up to a certain point. cap shouldn't be taking out hulk without some plot device help in h2h.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
No.

Cap is that good

or this.

If you have two people, and they weigh the same, yet one does extensive powerlifting and the other is just sort of an average dude, the guy that is stronger will in all likelihood hit with more force.

Why? Because his greater strength makes him FASTER too, and that means he's going to swing his arm/move his body faster than the other guy, and thus get in more force, with all other factors (mass, technique, age etc.) being equal.

Since we're talking realistically, it might as well be understood that one can't be fast and weak. speed doesn't come from magic. it comes from muscles. strong muscles.

Why is an elephant lumbering? (i.e. not able to cross its own body length very quickly) Because an elephant is weak for its size. Why is a cat able to its own body length very quickly? Because its strong for its size. Why is a tiger beetle able to cover dozens of its own body length very quickly? Because even more extremely, its VERY f*cking strong for its size.

So my point is, for comics, it works out fine. You have Hercules, he's like, I dunno 6'5" and 300 something lbs. That's about what a human his size would weigh. And yet he's obviously, I dunno, quintillions of times stronger than any human.

So it makes perfect sense for him to be able to hit really hard because his strength to weight ratio is so high.

Originally posted by leonidas
never said otherwise. he did do well--tossed namor around in the fight i'm thinking of, but namor beat him. things like nerve strikes and such MAY be effective against even heavyweights, but by and large i agree with you. it all depends on how great the differential. and we can't forget that while the people guys like cap fight are superhuman and can take nukes and such, cap is also superhuman AND superhumanly skilled. but like i said, i'm willing to suspend disbelief--up to a certain point. cap shouldn't be taking out hulk without some plot device help in h2h.


The differential would be far to great to overcome, Cap's strikes whether they be nerve strikes or not would first have to get past the muscle depth to cause any injury or damage whatsoever. Danny once used the Ironfist on Savage Hulk, and nearly broke his hand, which caused very little effect on the Hulk, and yet Captain America puts him down with a gut punch? PIS was certainly what played out in that showing. The Hulk has had his heart pulled out, and not lost conciousness. I would agree that Caps chances of taking down Bulldozer are good in a comic, but if it were real life, I would place my bets on the guy capable of lifting a bus, and is bullet proof.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
No.

Cap is that good

Pretty much.

Cap's superpower is that he's as good as he needs to be at any particular time. Sometimes he's not, but that's what you call PIS/CIS.

YcM0nezHJTc

Oh yea, Captain America knocked out Savage Hulk and drew blood against Green Scar. Of course, his been unable to hurt Thor every single time his attacked him (Hurt his hand punching his jaw etc.), but that's just more evidence that Thor > Hulk.

One example that comes to mind, is an old book where Daredevil actually defeated the Avengers, while trying to get at the Black Widow.
And, if I am not mistaken, that team included Cap and Herc.
No power-ups, no special weapons. All through skill.

I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Pretty much.

Cap's superpower is that he's as good as he needs to be at any particular time. Sometimes he's not, but that's what you call PIS/CIS.

YcM0nezHJTc


That's pretty much what I said. Therefore in a real life setting Captain America would have no business knocking out a guy that can survive the incredible pressures of the deepest oceans, or a guy that can survive a nuclear strike.

y so serious?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Oh yea, Captain America knocked out Savage Hulk and drew blood against Green Scar. Of course, his been unable to hurt Thor every single time his attacked him (Hurt his hand punching his jaw etc.), but that's just more evidence that Thor > Hulk.

Wolverine has sliced up Thor and had Thor holding his side from claw swipes from Wolverine but when Wolverine faced Colossus, that sh** didn't happen. More proof that Colossus>Thor.

Originally posted by Horrificus
One example that comes to mind, is an old book where Daredevil actually defeated the Avengers, while trying to get at the Black Widow.
And, if I am not mistaken, that team included Cap and Herc.
No power-ups, no special weapons. All through skill.

I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

wellll....... not exactly, but i'll let it slide. i know what you're trying to say.

Originally posted by carver9
Wolverine has sliced up Thor and had Thor holding his side from claw swipes from Wolverine but when Wolverine faced Colossus, that sh** didn't happen. More proof that Colossus>Thor. No to all

Originally posted by carver9
Wolverine has sliced up Thor and had Thor holding his side from claw swipes from Wolverine but when Wolverine faced Colossus, that sh** didn't happen. More proof that Colossus>Thor. If you like Thor more as you claim why strike back in the name of Hulk ? Are you a gamma liar ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
If you like Thor more as you claim why strike back in the name of Hulk ? Are you a gamma liar ?

I like Hulk better. Kind of like how you treat Void when him and Thanos are going against each other.

But Thor is your favorite character.

Originally posted by carver9
I like Hulk better. Kind of like how you treat Void when him and Thanos are going against each other. You claimed Thor was your favorite character. You are the worst kind of liar who can't even remember what lies you've tossed out there.

My top two has always been Thanos, then Tyrant and now Void/Sentry as the third.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
But Thor is your favorite character.

One of my favorites. Gladiator, Thor, Bill, Hulk, Wolverine. These are my tops.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You claimed Thor was your favorite character. You are the worst kind of liar who can't even remember what lies you've tossed out there.

My top two has always been Thanos, then Tyrant and now Void/Sentry as the third.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

Originally posted by carver9
One of my favorites. Gladiator, Thor, Bill, Hulk, Wolverine. These are my tops.

You've said countless times that "Thor IS my favorite character", presumably to save face when you relentlessly lowball him in favor of Hulk or Gladiator.

I know you better than you do, Carver.

Originally posted by carver9
One of my favorites. Gladiator, Thor, Bill, Hulk, Wolverine. These are my tops. You said Thor was your number 1. We all laughed and didn't believe you then and now you admitted you lied. Keep it up, carv.

I appreciate jake the number 1 Thor fan from this site keeping pretenders off Thor's lawn. Rage can watch in envy.

Originally posted by carver9
Stop putting words in my mouth. You stated it. You're a liar. Jake remembers it. Jake won't let you get away with this offense.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You said Thor was your number 1. We all laughed and didn't believe you then and now you admitted you lied. Keep it up, carv.

I appreciate jake the number 1 Thor fan from this site keeping pretenders off Thor's lawn. Rage can watch in envy.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You stated it. You're a liar. Jake remembers it. Jake won't let you get away with this offense.




*is a one man Thor Corps*

yall mad as hell

Originally posted by leonidas
wellll....... not exactly, but i'll let it slide. i know what you're trying to say. Yeah, it's foggy. But, I remember that it was kind of cool.

Can you fill in the blanks? As to how it went down.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Yeah, it's foggy. But, I remember that it was kind of cool.

Can you fill in the blanks? As to how it went down.

sure. that was when matt was acting nuts because of a concussion and for some reason i don't remember he wanted to kill natasha so he attacked the avengers and herc. he DID manage to surprise and ko the beast. he caught cap's shield which was cool (i loved that scene and drew a picture of it a long time ago!) then tossed it at herc and knocked him down. he flipped cap and fought tasha for a bit before he collapsed. cap and herc were fine of course, but it was a cool little showing though all of it was a result of surprise and he did no real harm--except to beast. later in the arc the avengers saved him from death stalker, who, when i was a kid, was one of my absolute favourite villains.... that first miller issue cost me $40 and i saved up for like, a year to buy that thing!

na

Originally posted by leonidas
sure. that was when matt was acting nuts because of a concussion and for some reason i don't remember he wanted to kill natasha so he attacked the avengers and herc. he DID manage to surprise and ko the beast. he caught cap's shield which was cool (i loved that scene and drew a picture of it a long time ago!) then tossed it at herc and knocked him down. he flipped cap and fought tasha for a bit before he collapsed. cap and herc were fine of course, but it was a cool little showing though all of it was a result of surprise and he did no real harm--except to beast. later in the arc the avengers saved him from death stalker, who, when i was a kid, was one of my absolute favourite villains.... that first miller issue cost me $40 and i saved up for like, a year to buy that thing! Awesome!
Thank you. It has been so long.
That is one of the earliest books I remember.
And, it was a cool showing of skill over strength, (even though he didn't do any serious damage).

Karate Kid.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Karate Kid. I always thought that Ben Grim is one of the most neglected, misused characters in comics. He has the strength street-smarts, experience and toughness to hang with the heavy-weights, (even though he usually ends up getting beat down).

A while ago he was on a track where is was involved in that fighting league and I thought that if they expanded on that and gave him some degree of actual martial arts he would have been a very dangerous opponent for the heavy-weights.

.

Strength Is What Makes Your Strikes More Painful

Strength>Striking

try any batman fight

Originally posted by carver9
Stop putting words in my mouth. I Remembered You Said ''Thor IS My Favorite Character'' That Is Exactly What You Said

Striking feats>>>strength feats when it comes to combat.

Alot of poster tend to hide behind strength feats when it comes to combat.

Originally posted by Nihilist
Striking feats>>>strength feats when it comes to combat.

Alot of poster tend to hide behind strength feats when it comes to combat.

Not necessarily, you see if you take a five year old child, and have him hit a grown adult male, his strikes would count for nothing, even if he hit the adult 10-15 times more than the adult hit him. In many cases the gap is much larger than this. When you factor in natural body armor, and durability of a guy that can shatter a mountain, and take hits that could also shatter a mountain vs a striker, that would have trouble shattering a brick wall you tend to have a lopsided situation. Captain America dropping the Hulk with one gut punch is a prime example of PIS. It should have been impossible, even by comic book standards to have done any more than make him raise an eyebrow.

Originally posted by Nihilist
Alot of poster tend to hide behind strength feats when it comes to combat. Originally posted by Stoic
Not necessarily, you see if you take a five year old child, and have him hit a grown adult male, his strikes would count for nothing, even if he hit the adult 10-15 times more than the adult hit him. In many cases the gap is much larger than this. When you factor in natural body armor, and durability of a guy that can shatter a mountain, and take hits that could also shatter a mountain vs a striker, that would have trouble shattering a brick wall you tend to have a lopsided situation. Captain America dropping the Hulk with one gut punch is a prime example of PIS. It should have been impossible, even by comic book standards to have done any more than make him raise an eyebrow.
facepalmSee what i mean

Originally posted by Nihilist
facepalmSee what i mean

I fail to see, or understand what is so hard to comprehend in what I posted, and how you deem it to be incorrect. In fact it makes more sense than you want to give it credit. It's simple, if a persons damage yield is far less than the person receiving the damage due to body armor, and durability, the attack could look great, but the fact is, numerically, and physically, it would count for nothing. Unless of course you're saying that Daredevil can kick a train into another state, or Captain America can punch through two foot of reinforced steel paneling. Make sense now?

Originally posted by Stoic
I fail to see, or understand what is so hard to comprehend in what I posted, and how you deem it to be incorrect. In fact it makes more sense than you want to give it credit. It's simple, if a persons damage yield is far less than the person receiving the damage due to body armor, and durability, the attack could look great, but the fact is, numerically, and physically, it would count for nothing. Unless of course your saying that Daredevil can kick a train into another state, or Captain America can punch through two foot of reinforced steel paneling. Make sense now? Youre a total waste of time seriously.

Originally posted by Nihilist
Youre a total waste of time seriously.


I guess the concept was above your understanding. My bad.

Originally posted by Stoic
I guess the concept was above your understanding. My bad. No just youre outright stupidity and bias twisting of how things work/context in comics to aid your fave chararcters rep.

Originally posted by Nihilist
No just youre outright stupidity and bias twisting of how things work/context in comics to aid your fave chararcters rep.


It does not matter what character you use, if one character does not possess the power or strength to hurt another, it would not faze the character that is taking the blow. You're the only one that comes off looking like an idiot here, but like I said, perhaps this simple concept is beyond your ability to grasp.

Originally posted by Stoic
It does not matter what character you use, if one character does not possess the power or strength to hurt another, it would not faze the character that is taking the blow. You're the only one that comes off looking like an idiot here, but like I said, perhaps this simple concept is beyond your ability to grasp. The simple fact is Hulk has lifting feats, thats why you are defending that stance everyone knows it and thats why you discount everything else as pis or whatever you want to call it.

Its sad really.

Originally posted by Nihilist
The simple fact is Hulk has lifting feats, thats why you are defending that stance everyone knows it and thats why you discount everything else as pis or whatever you want to call it.

Its sad really.


The fact is that I used that particular time as a reference point to show PIS in it's purest form. The Hulk being able to take hits from Hercules who can destroy mountains, and then getting KO'd by Captain America who would have trouble punching through a cinder block wall is a huge leap. This has nothing to do with the Hulk, I could have used another character. Captain America was pummeled by Mr. Hyde, who happens to be far inferior to the Hulk in every category, and yet he was not KO'd by Captain America. I get it though, you want to be contrary but really have not made one point aside from pointing the finger. Classic. Also do you understand the concept of this threads OP?

Originally posted by Nihilist
Striking feats>>>strength feats when it comes to combat.

Alot of poster tend to hide behind strength feats when it comes to combat. Agree with this.

But, there are other factors. Durability is a definite factor.
I liked the old Marvel Universe books that actually gave the "Skin Density" of characters for instance.
But, to outline the importance of Striking Ability over Strength of Arm, I have 2 words:
Bruce Lee

And, going along with the train of thought, I would have to say that a Martial Arts Ben Grim, would be able to utilize his strength much more effectively, thus the outcomes of some of Ben's fights with heavyweights might have some very different outcomes.

The constant barrage of super-powerful beings throwing huge, looping hay-makers at each-other until somebody falls. Then again, as per my point, it would explain why the stronger character usually wins.
I just don't think it is an accurate way to decide each fight in the forums.

It also is a sure sign that many writers have never been in a real fight, or, maybe, never even saw one.

Here are some examples, (not in any specific order) of Heavy-Weight Character fights being written creatively and intelligently: (feel free to add-on)

1. Grey Hulk (Mr. Fixit) fighting a stronger Ben Grim, shoves his fingers into Ben's large mutated mouth and grabs the Thing's Uvula! Good God!

2. More recently, Colossus bashing Juggernaut (Worthy)'s knee. Even without the power of Cytorakk, that strike might have done some damage to a Cain that was pretty much standing still. Plus, striking a knee, for the most part, isn't usually a strike that is meant to actually "break" anything. It just makes the knee go places it doesn't want to go. hehe (I speak from experience) and since (Worthy)Juggernaut is pretty much indestructible, this would have been a good way to go, even for a regular-powered Colossus.

Bump

Originally posted by Horrificus
1. Grey Hulk (Mr. Fixit) fighting a stronger Ben Grim, shoves his fingers into Ben's large mutated mouth and grabs the Thing's Uvula! Good God!

That was actually She-Thing, and Fixit did it to mess with her. When he got serious he demolished her
The actual smart fighting example with stronger Thing is Fixit redirecting Grimm's charge into the water and taking him on there, then using the Heimlich maneuver on Ben, almost drowning him

Originally posted by Nihilist
The simple fact is Hulk has lifting feats

Hulk has better striking and durability feats as well

Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
That was actually She-Thing, and Fixit did it to mess with her. When he got serious he demolished her
The actual smart fighting example with stronger Thing is Fixit redirecting Grimm's charge into the water and taking him on there, then using the Heimlich maneuver on Ben, almost drowning him ok. Right.
My bad.
I wonder where the hell the writer got the "uvula" idea, or whatever its called.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Oh yea, Captain America knocked out Savage Hulk and drew blood against Green Scar. Of course, his been unable to hurt Thor every single time his attacked him (Hurt his hand punching his jaw etc.), but that's just more evidence that Thor > Hulk.
You really wanna go down that lowballing route Rage? I think you're simply trolling. Even if you're not trolling but being serious, and thus being the Abhi to Thor's Superman, its fine by me. I'm very much capable of of doing the same:
Thor gets KOd for 7 pages and gets his skin pierced by a handgun.
http://s31.postimg.org/4x9lq765z/RCO011_w.jpg
http://s31.postimg.org/u4khqg99z/RCO012_w.jpg
http://s31.postimg.org/fpc82erxz/RCO013.jpg
http://s31.postimg.org/5j1sdxbsn/RCO014.jpg
http://s31.postimg.org/vv6qjk1dj/RCO015.jpg
http://s31.postimg.org/h5qyc65fb/RCO016.jpg
http://s31.postimg.org/6o0wgf4l3/RCO017.jpg
http://s31.postimg.org/ypexu49vb/RCO018.jpg
http://s31.postimg.org/506cfig3b/RCO019.jpg
http://s31.postimg.org/rspcvc2yf/RCO020_w.jpg

On the other hand, Hulk is completely unharmed by close range gunfire even point-blank. Even when his durability is explicit weakened he was unharmed by minigun fire. Heck recently he shrugged off Adamantium handgun bullets while not being in top form
http://s31.postimg.org/frsnnxuk7/2818993_mh_feat_durability_1.png
http://s31.postimg.org/tcjfn2ad3/2818997_mh_feat_durability_2.png
http://s31.postimg.org/q6ytwurqv/2818998_mh_feat_durability_3.png
http://s20.postimg.org/nv0n2ffwt/Hulk_1_2014_Adamantium_Bullets.jpg
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Hulk%20Durability/SavageHulkPiercing08160.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Hulk%20Durability/SavageHulkPiercing21274.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Hulk%20Durability/SavageHulkPiercing18255.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Hulk%20Durability/GreyHulkPiercing07366.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Hulk%20Durability/SavageHulkPiercing20Annual10.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Hulk%20Durability/ProfessorHulkPiercing01379.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Hulk%20Durability/ProfessorHulkPiercing06396.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Hulk%20Durability/GreyHulkPiercing09Wolverinev27.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Hulk%20Durability/MindlessHulkPiercing03450.jpg.html

Proof that Hulk>>Thor. Could please show equal number of showings of projectiles that are clearly bullets (no lasers and that stuff) explicitly bouncing off Thor's skin and his forehead in perfect view, not blurred , without the help of his armor, Mjolnir or helmet. And it should be Thor himself, no Beta Ray Bill, Jane, Red Norvell, Masterson or any other Asgardians or Olympians or other gods

continued...
Karnak has hit Thor's arm and made him drop Mjolnir
http://s31.postimg.org/hqnhuiuwn/2024207_cv_karnak_disarms_thor.jpg

That's no bad showing for Thor since, Karnak has actually KOd the Surfer within Surfer's own series
http://s31.postimg.org/gxg68plo7/RCO014.jpg

http://s31.postimg.org/eb595ijuf/RCO016.jpg

And wrecked the Thing, along with the room and shook up the whole Baxter building during it:
http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/27059632_aav2_02_04.jpg


Hulk though, no sells, Karnak. Even when Black Bolt, someone who is already strong enough to hurt Hulk, tired the same tactic, he got blitzed and KOd
http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/27059616_inhumans-12-a-berserker-called-hulk-12.jpg
http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/27059617_3092330-vhulk12cj.jpg
http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/27059618_Hulk_fell_Black_bolt.png

Lol

Good showing for Hulk vs Black Bolt. He took Black Bolt out in a single hit after that last panel. Bolt body was limp...out cold. Hulk even powered through his electron blast. The same attack that dropped Sphinx.

Cap hurting the Hulk without the shield or some plot device is PIS and not usable on the forum.