Faith Alone.

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siriuswriter
I always thought that Christianity was supposed to be based on faith alone - and that Christians are not supposed to try to prove any of the aspects of their faith - God, The Holy Spirit, Jesus, miracles, nothing.

So why does it seem that more evangelical Christians are trying to catch up with Atheists who find "proof" that a god doesn't exist? Christians are supposed to be okay with this; the greatest link to Christian diety is faith, the belief in something that cannot be proved true.

So why do Christians feel like they suddenly need to prove the unprovable?

dadudemon
Originally posted by siriuswriter
I always thought that Christianity was supposed to be based on faith alone - and that Christians are not supposed to try to prove any of the aspects of their faith - God, The Holy Spirit, Jesus, miracles, nothing.

So why does it seem that more evangelical Christians are trying to catch up with Atheists who find "proof" that a god doesn't exist? Christians are supposed to be okay with this; the greatest link to Christian diety is faith, the belief in something that cannot be proved true.

So why do Christians feel like they suddenly need to prove the unprovable?

They didn't do this "suddenly". It has been going on for ages. Even before Christ's time.

It is human nature to want someone to believe what you believe especially if you think it will help them. Along the way, those good intentions get lost and mixed up...blended...destoryed...and tarnished. Then we end up with arguments. Then shit slinging. Then fights. Then wars.

"You should believe what I believe because of X".

That's the basic argument from any human everywhere. You don't have to be an atheist or theist to say something like that. Everyone does it...pretty much.


Would not the cave paintings in France also be more of the same? "Look at these visions. Believe I am a good Shaman". (Of course, that is just one interpretation of what was going on).

Digi
Well, it should be based on faith, and religion doesn't really have much else to hang its hat on. But people have an intrinsic tendency to justify their beliefs somehow. Whether not it actually constitutes proof or even evidence is suspect.

Also, not all religions exclude proof through other methods. Faith is a primary conduit, but not always the sole possessor of Truth.

Also because a lot of them get their butts handed to them by science (see: evolution) so they hide behind other "scientists" on religious payrolls so that they can obscure truth to the extent that it doesn't harm their worldview.

Omega Vision
I'm with Soren Kierkegaard, if you're going to be religious don't try for logic to substantiate your beliefs.

inimalist
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I'm with Soren Kierkegaard, if you're going to be religious don't try for logic to substantiate your beliefs.

agreed

and I don't think that is even a criticism of religion in any way

non-overlapping magisteria and all that

marwash22
i would wager to guess there aren't very many "real" Christians in the world to begin with.

Digi
To be fair, a fair number of people just don't have enough understanding of the universe around them to realize that their beliefs would need to be either largely or solely on faith to make sense. For many, the universe itself, random coincidences, the beauty of life, etc. is rational justification for God in their worldview.

socool8520
I think with this age when information is at our fingertips, Faith alone is just not enough for people anymore. They want proof. And I guess for the reason that Digi already posted.

siriuswriter
big grin

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Digi
Well, it should be based on faith, and religion doesn't really have much else to hang its hat on. But people have an intrinsic tendency to justify their beliefs somehow. Whether not it actually constitutes proof or even evidence is suspect.

Also, not all religions exclude proof through other methods. Faith is a primary conduit, but not always the sole possessor of Truth.

Also because a lot of them get their butts handed to them by science (see: evolution) so they hide behind other "scientists" on religious payrolls so that they can obscure truth to the extent that it doesn't harm their worldview.

I disagree somewhat.

Faith cannot be challenged. Dogma can.

I have faith that 3000 years from now, on the January 2nd, it will be a lovely day. I am basing this on faith. A feeling. I'm not stating this as a fact, but as belief.
Unless one can travel through time, there really is no base or evidence to challenge my faith that Jan 2nd 3000 years from now, it will be a lovely day.
I have faith that when I die, I shall be reborn again provided I have not attained spiritual enlightenment in this life.
This too, is difficult to challenge. I am not stating this as a scientific fact, but as my own faith and belief.

Now, if I claim that, what I said above as an absolute truth and those who do not believe are simply wrong, it ceases to be merely a faith or belief and turns into a dogma.

Dogmas, however can and should be challenged. In fact, any established or institutionalised ''truths'' ARE to be challenged. At all times.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I disagree somewhat.

Faith cannot be challenged. Dogma can.

I have faith that 3000 years from now, on the January 2nd, it will be a lovely day. I am basing this on faith. A feeling. I'm not stating this as a fact, but as belief.
Unless one can travel through time, there really is no base or evidence to challenge my faith that Jan 2nd 3000 years from now, it will be a lovely day.
I have faith that when I die, I shall be reborn again provided I have not attained spiritual enlightenment in this life.
This too, is difficult to challenge. I am not stating this as a scientific fact, but as my own faith and belief.

Now, if I claim that, what I said above as an absolute truth and those who do not believe are simply wrong, it ceases to be merely a faith or belief and turns into a dogma.

Dogmas, however can and should be challenged. In fact, any established or institutionalised ''truths'' ARE to be challenged. At all times.

It's not a choice between faith and dogma, though. Dogma is built on other things. If you declare that faith cannot (or should not) be challenged then any dogma built on faith is similarly unchallengable.

I disagree with your choice of words in reference to how to deal with dogma. The idea that you should challenge dogma at all times a) very dogmatic itself and b) not very useful. The dogma might well be accurate. You should examine dogma (just like everything else) and either discard it or keep it depending on what you find.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It's not a choice between faith and dogma, though. Dogma is built on other things. If you declare that faith cannot (or should not) be challenged then any dogma built on faith is similarly unchallengable.

I disagree with your choice of words in reference to how to deal with dogma. The idea that you should challenge dogma at all times a) very dogmatic itself and b) not very useful. The dogma might well be accurate. You should examine dogma (just like everything else) and either discard it or keep it depending on what you find.

The fact that one is examining something established as the truth to begin with is a challenge in itself, as opposed to accepting it as it is on faith.

Also, I am clearly referring to religious Dogmas only. In religion any established truths are to be examined.
I equally said that all established truths should be challenge - regardless if they're religious or scientific in nature. It is this challenge that leads to progress.

I'm not sure what your point was...

RE: Blaxican
No army is large enough to counquer the galaxy, BUT FAITH ALONE CAN OVERTURN THE UNIVERSE. /random

dadudemon
This thread reminded me of something.

There are some people out there that set a specific goal and obtained it. Now they "know" God exists and is personal.


For example, someone could pray their heart out and then they get the answer to their prayer that is extremely specific. "My boss will ask me to work on the Briar Project even though we haven't taken them on as of yesterday. Then I will know for sure God is answering my prayers on my money situation."

Then the boss asks them that day to work on the Briar Project and they proceed to shit their pants. From that day forward, they "know" God exists.


One thing that has bothered me about this "faith" thing is the answers to prayers that WOULD have created a righteous zealot for God. I know God doesn't need that type of person (even if we are talking about a hypothetical god). But, to me, that would be the best way to convert anyone. For example, my friend from highschool is one of those very extreme and dogmatic atheists. Well, his grandfather, who helped raise him and was practically his father, got very sick, ended up in the ER, and was on his deathbed. In one of the saddest things I have seen, his Facebook status pleaded for his friends to join him in prayer to save his grandfather. His grandfather died the next day.

If you picture my faith as a pristine image of a beautiful field constantly being projected, my faith flickered and distorted for just a moment. If my friend could humble himself, despite his extreme atheism, to God into prayer, would not God have created a very devote individual by saving his grandfather from the illness and giving that old man a few more years with his grandson? I think so. Now, a Christian or Muslim apologist will say God's ways are higher than our ways and God is far beyond what we can imagine in His thought processes...but that's almost complete bullshit from my limited perspective. I don't want to "appeal to extreme- intelligence" in situations like that. That's virtually a fallacy, for me. What I want is God to operate on a simplistic level enough for us to know what He's doing to love His children. I want to be able to see it and observe it: not be bombarded by some sort of extreme complex "butterfly" effect that I may or may not comprehend or even realize is there. Does ANYone else know what I'm talking about?


Regardless of all that, my homie would have kept his sensibilities in the sciences but become a theist (if even an agnostic theist like myself). He would have believed in a higher power had his most heart-felt, sincere, and humble prayer of probably his entire life would have been answered.


TL : DR version: This is why I hate faith so much. It seems meaningless the more you think about it even IF a personal and active God exists. Living life as a genuinely good person, trying to overcome your weaknesses, and increasing the number of talents and abilities you have is definitely a great way (dare I say the best way?) to live your life. Surely God's infinite Grace will bridge the gap upon death and not require petty rites, right?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by dadudemon
What I want is God to operate on a simplistic level enough for us to know what He's doing to love His children. I want to be able to see it and observe it: not be bombarded by some sort of extreme complex "butterfly" effect that I may or may not comprehend or even realize is there. Does ANYone else know what I'm talking about?

I can only imagine god leaving a "signature" to say "I've been here, don't worry". To go further than that risks a level of interference religions seem to find unacceptable.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Surely God's infinite Grace will bridge the gap upon death and not require petty rites, right?

And if he doesn't accepting hell might not be very difficult.

People have called that an immature response but I have trouble seeing the alternative. Who can really say that if it turns out the path to salvation was torturing children that they would instantly change their whole morality to fit that fact? Or if it was merely petty, as in the joke where a man is sent to hell for eating entrees with a salad fork, who can really say they would suddenly admit to being moral failures? I think it was Kant who talked about moral intuition, people just won't (perhaps cannot) accept a god that disagrees with them about morality.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I can only imagine god leaving a "signature" to say "I've been here, don't worry". To go further than that risks a level of interference religions seem to find unacceptable.

Okay. I see your point. Seriously...such simple words mean many.



Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And if he doesn't accepting hell might not be very difficult.

This is what Mormons believe. We will be "comfortable" with whatever "heaven" we get. The liars, adulterers, murderers, thieves, etc. will all get a heavenly glory. It is only those that deny God and everything about him that will go to "hell". Meaning, only the people that actually want to go to hell, go to hell.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
People have called that an immature response but I have trouble seeing the alternative. Who can really say that if it turns out the path to salvation was torturing children that they would instantly change their whole morality to fit that fact? Or if it was merely petty, as in the joke where a man is sent to hell for eating entrees with a salad fork, who can really say they would suddenly admit to being moral failures? I think it was Kant who talked about moral intuition, people just won't (perhaps cannot) accept a god that disagrees with them about morality.

Exactly. We don't know "objective" moral truth, for sure...assuming it actually exists. If God has always existed and these are His Eternal laws, sure, we can call those objective. They will seem arbitrary to us.

But, from my perspective, almost all religions are right. I see "God" in pretty much all of them. This is why I don't get hung up on "then why are there so many religions?" They all pretty much teach you to be a nicer person. Just few of us actually do that and instead focus on why we are better...and possibly introduce the rites, ourselves.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Digi
To be fair, a fair number of people just don't have enough understanding of the universe around them to realize that their beliefs would need to be either largely or solely on faith to make sense. For many, the universe itself, random coincidences, the beauty of life, etc. is rational justification for God in their worldview.
One of the smartest people I knew claimed his cause for believing in God was the beauty in one particular sunset. laughing out loud

dadudemon
Originally posted by Omega Vision
One of the smartest people I knew claimed his cause for believing in God was the beauty in one particular sunset. laughing out loud

Seriously...that's deep. He is probably the type that could tell an entire story from just an abstract pencil scribble, too.

Digi
Originally posted by Omega Vision
One of the smartest people I knew claimed his cause for believing in God was the beauty in one particular sunset. laughing out loud

This is not a refutation of my point. Your friend, however smart, was a victim of magical thinking and the irrational tendency to ascribe divine qualities to entirely explainable phenomena. Such people, however, do exist.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Digi
This is not a refutation of my point. Your friend, however smart, was a victim of magical thinking and the irrational tendency to ascribe divine qualities to entirely explainable phenomena. Such people, however, do exist.
I don't think it was a rational-irrational thing for him, unless you think emotions by their very nature are irrational.

Oh and I wasn't trying to refute your point, just commenting on an anecdote that your post reminded me of.

zoom3
No one ever said that we couldn't prove God's existence. It's our job to convert others to Christianity to save them from eternal punishment. So if we have to give proof of God to do that, it's what we'll do. cool

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by zoom3
No one ever said that we couldn't prove God's existence. It's our job to convert others to Christianity to save them from eternal punishment. So if we have to give proof of God to do that, it's what we'll do. cool

There is no eternal punishment. Oh wait, having to listen to people like you, now that is as close as you get. laughing

dadudemon
So my friend just told me she went from strong atheism to Christian evangelical. Told me all about it on Facebook chat.


I have no idea what to think.


It came as a very low moment in her life: she had just gotten a divorce and lost her job. She was very depressed and was about commit suicide. She still has two kids both under the age of 12.


Well, she was about to go through with the deed (like...holy shit, man...) and decided that she would stop if and only if she got some sort of confirmation that there really was a God and she should continue with her life.


So she prayed for like the first time in her life. Then she said a huge vice was taken from off of her chest and shoulders (metaphor) and she felt peace and comfort like she had never experienced. That's when she realized that there was a God and that He/She/It cared about each and everyone of His/Her/Its children on a personal level.




It was a powerful story. She experienced the transcendent in the lowest of lows in her life. Part of me believes that what she told me is truer than any knowledge I could ever hope to know. Another part of me was a skeptical ***hole because I hate the concept of faith so much.


How can she, who was extremely opposed to religion and the ideas of many of them, turn away and do a 180? She called it faith. She had a hard time accepting her experience at first. She won't tell me what religion she is part of but from how she talks, she is definitely part of a Christian Evangelical church.




I say that if God did this for her, great. She is going to stick around, now, and be a mother to her children. Man...I didn't have anywhere else to share this story that I felt comfortable doing it.


What do you guys think? Is it a case of a person that did not want to really go through with suicide and is blaming it on God?

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by dadudemon



I say that if God did this for her, great. She is going to stick around, now, and be a mother to her children. Man...I didn't have anywhere else to share this story that I felt comfortable doing it.


What do you guys think? Is it a case of a person that did not want to really go through with suicide and is blaming it on God?

Well to be an ******* for the sake of being an ******* I'd say...yes, she was just scare of death and something just clicked inside the person's mind to give them comfort and stability of sorts. I'm not well versed in neuroscience by an means however I do think that the brain was able to stimulate a way to comfort the the person in order to prevent self endangerment of life; no different than being naturally inclined to flinch from pain.

However to take this as a way to explain how some higher power can influence the whim of others is kind of weird but great in this person's case. I mean, I find it strange how an omnipotent being would specifically tough one individual among countles living organisms. Or maybe access to said salvation was within arms reach and only need the elimination of other distractions in order to properly grasp it.

As you can see I suck at responces concerning faith.

Mindship
Originally posted by dadudemon
So my friend just told me she went from strong atheism to Christian evangelical. It came as a very low moment in her life: she had just gotten a divorce and lost her job. She was very depressed and was about commit suicide. She still has two kids both under the age of 12.

Well, she was about to go through with the deed (like...holy shit, man...) and decided that she would stop if and only if she got some sort of confirmation that there really was a God and she should continue with her life.

So she prayed for like the first time in her life. Then she said a huge vice was taken from off of her chest and shoulders (metaphor) and she felt peace and comfort like she had never experienced. That's when she realized that there was a God and that He/She/It cared about each and everyone of His/Her/Its children on a personal level.

How can she, who was extremely opposed to religion and the ideas of many of them, turn away and do a 180? She called it faith. She had a hard time accepting her experience at first. She won't tell me what religion she is part of but from how she talks, she is definitely part of a Christian Evangelical church.

What do you guys think? Is it a case of a person that did not want to really go through with suicide and is blaming it on God? I don't think she really wanted to kill herself. 'Finding religion' was the solution that gave her peace and enabled her to stay around for her kids.

Was this 'God' in the sense she thinks it is? I would say no. Was this a metaphor which connected her to 'forces beyond her conscious self'? Yes. Are these forces, or perhaps better stated, the source of these forces 'God' as I might define it? I like to think so. But do I see her experience as proof of God? Not necessarily. I would, however, say that, minimally, her experience illustrates the capacity for self-healing (whether or not ultimately backed by a transcendent source).

red g jacks
i know that paul teaches that salvation comes through faith in christ alone, but is there anything in the bible that actually says not to back up religious claims with evidence?

from the book of romans


the first half confirms that faith is the path to salvation and righteousness. the second half though seems to suggest that it should be pretty apparent to the faithful and non-faithful alike that god is real and his word is true.

it seems like even the accounts in the gospels included rudimentary claims of evidence in order to make them seem more persuasive... like the witnesses who saw christ after his resurrection or the witnesses to his miracles, etc.

or the story of elijah the prophet in the old testament. dude could summon fire from the sky on demand, and even went so far as to use this favor with god to set up a controlled demonstration of god's existence in front of all of israel. and of course the plagues summoned by moses.

the bible is littered with accounts of god blatantly putting his power on display. so i do find it quite peculiar, the idea that for him to do so now would somehow ruin 'faith'.

Shakyamunison
It is easy to say that something happened in the past, and provide evidence of what someone saw or heard. However, this is hearsay and not evidence of anything other then what that person believed. Add on top of that thousands of years rewriting and translating, and facts goes away. All we are left with is belief (faith). You have to believe that the bible is real, and telling you the truth (faith), before you can even entertain the question.

lil bitchiness
Meh...Christianity is a denomination of Judaism while Judaism being a plagiarism of Zoroastrianism. Mormons like Christianity so much they started writing fan fiction about it, and Muslims are like Christians who follow the old testament ONLY, but managing to contradict the Judaism and Christianity simultaneously.

Gospel according to Mila. If it's not in the Bible, pencil it in.

red g jacks
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It is easy to say that something happened in the past, and provide evidence of what someone saw or heard. However, this is hearsay and not evidence of anything other then what that person believed. Add on top of that thousands of years rewriting and translating, and facts goes away. All we are left with is belief (faith). You have to believe that the bible is real, and telling you the truth (faith), before you can even entertain the question. i was referring more to whether or not the god of the bible wants christians to abstain from looking for hard evidence.. which is what this thread seemed to imply to me

you can argue that the bible might not be real and thus not evidence (i would agree with you) but if you do believe that it's real then i'd say there's plenty of precedent in the bible to think you can expect to find evidence in reality. i'm not saying faith isn't still important, but it seems like the two can go hand in hand.

at least that's clear to me from the interaction of god with the state of israel. but maybe christ is supposed to have changed that precedent. i honestly don't know.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by red g jacks
i was referring more to whether or not the god of the bible wants christians to abstain from looking for hard evidence.. which is what this thread seemed to imply to me

you can argue that the bible might not be real and thus not evidence (i would agree with you) but if you do believe that it's real then i'd say there's plenty of precedent in the bible to think you can expect to find evidence in reality.

at least that's clear to me from the interaction of god with the state of israel. but maybe christ is supposed to have changed that precedent. i honestly don't know.

But if you believe that the bible is true, then you are already believing without proof (faith). My point is why go beyond? Sometimes the obvious is overlooked.

red g jacks
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But if you believe that the bible is true, then you are already believing without proof (faith). My point is why go beyond? Sometimes the obvious is overlooked. i had a feeling this would be your objection, so i edited in the following:



why go beyond? i think the better question is why not? if you have faith that the bible is true, why would you assume it'll never be confirmed by any analysis of reality?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by red g jacks
...why go beyond? i think the better question is why not? if you have faith that the bible is true, why would you assume it'll never be confirmed by any analysis of reality?

If I believe in 'A', then I should believe anything that is part of 'A'. If I am trying to prove any sub-part of 'A', then that brings into question rather I truly believe that 'A' is true.

Therefore, if you truly believe that the bible is true, then the only reason you are trying to prove any part is to convince someone who questions the bibles volatility. That seems to be a different point then the thread.

red g jacks
i guess i can see your reasoning; that it shows some signs of doubt to look for proof

does that mean however that christians should expect to find no proof/evidence of any aspect of their beliefs in nature, or that they simply shouldn't have to look for it?

once again, i think that romans verse seems to imply that we all (including non-believers) can expect to see evidence of the christian god all around us. unless i'm interpreting it wrong.

but if i'm not, consider this for a second. they believe the bible through faith. the bible says the signs of god are all around them and that everyone secretly knows its true. therefore, they should expect (via faith in the bible) to see such signs. see where i'm coming from?

Shakyamunison

red g jacks
i can see the logic in that. it's sorta counter intuitive to me but i guess i don't fully understand why people have faith.

out of curiosity:

i agree that's the natural reaction, but as you have demonstrated it doesn't show good faith. what would be a more faithful alternative to looking for proof in this scenario, assuming there is one?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by red g jacks
i can see the logic in that. it's sorta counter intuitive to me but i guess i don't fully understand why people have faith.

out of curiosity:

i agree that's the natural reaction, but as you have demonstrated it doesn't show good faith. what would be a more faithful alternative to looking for proof in this scenario, assuming there is one?

Do what Job did.

I believe this is a way to manipulate people. Believers are encouraged to assume that proof exists.

red g jacks
good answer.

so i have always been under the impression that having faith just meant having an unsubstantiated belief in something, but apparently it means having a belief that one is not even allowed to try to substantiate lest they sully the resolute nature of their 'faith.'

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by siriuswriter
I always thought that Christianity was supposed to be based on faith alone - and that Christians are not supposed to try to prove any of the aspects of their faith - God, The Holy Spirit, Jesus, miracles, nothing.

So why does it seem that more evangelical Christians are trying to catch up with Atheists who find "proof" that a god doesn't exist? Christians are supposed to be okay with this; the greatest link to Christian diety is faith, the belief in something that cannot be proved true.

So why do Christians feel like they suddenly need to prove the unprovable?

God's existence cannot be disproved; hence, no atheist has found any such proof.

However, there is a plethora of evidence that God does exist i.e. the universe that we live in, the sun, the stars, the moon, the planets, the earth that we live on, the complexity of life, the human brain, the human heart, the predictability and reliability of science based on known natural laws, the Bible, accuracy of Bible prophesy, miracles, conversion of the unsaved, those who have been resurrected from the dead, the spirit world, all of these things attest to the existence of God because they confirm His handiwork.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by red g jacks
good answer.

so i have always been under the impression that having faith just meant having an unsubstantiated belief in something, but apparently it means having a belief that one is not even allowed to try to substantiate lest they sully the resolute nature of their 'faith.'

I think we are now talking about blind faith. The word faith is wider in meaning then how it is used in Christianity.

See JIA's post for proof. cool

red g jacks
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think we are now talking about blind faith. The word faith is wider in meaning then how it is used in Christianity.

See JIA's post for proof. cool his post seems filled to the brim with perceived evidence.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by red g jacks
his post seems filled to the brim with perceived evidence.

Is he looking for proof, or is he assuming proof?

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Is he looking for proof, or is he assuming proof?

Neither, I don't have to.

It is what it is.

smile

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Neither, I don't have to.

It is what it is.

smile

I would call that an assumption of proof.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I would call that an assumption of proof.

Why would you call that as assumption of proof? I believe that all natural things have a beginning, designer, manufacturer, father, mother, or creator.

This can be proven using the scientific method.

In this case I believe that the material universe and planet earth with all of its complexity and life must of necessity been created. I know of no other Person qualified to pull off such an amazing feat other than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob i.e. the God of the Bible.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Why would you call that as assumption of proof? I believe that all natural things have a beginning, designer, manufacturer, father, mother, or creator.

This can be proven using the scientific method.

In this case I believe that the material universe and planet earth with all of its complexity and life must of necessity been created. I know of no other Person qualified to pull off such an amazing feat other than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob i.e. the God of the Bible.

But you do not go and get a science degree and try to prove any of this. You don't need too, because you assume that it is true.

I know that a fresh do-nut is good to eat, and I don't go and try to prove this. I assume that a fresh do-nut is good to eat.

You know that all things around you are proof of god, and you don't go out and try to prove it. You assume that the universe is proof of god.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But you do not go and get a science degree and try to prove any of this. You don't need too, because you assume that it is true.

I know that a fresh do-nut is good to eat, and I don't go and try to prove this. I assume that a fresh do-nut is good to eat.

You know that all things around you are proof of god, and you don't go out and try to prove it. You assume that the universe is proof of god.

Well, actually I call it common sense.

I don't have to assume as true what common sense already presupposes.

red g jacks
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But you do not go and get a science degree and try to prove any of this. You don't need too, because you assume that it is true.

I know that a fresh do-nut is good to eat, and I don't go and try to prove this. I assume that a fresh do-nut is good to eat.

You know that all things around you are proof of god, and you don't go out and try to prove it. You assume that the universe is proof of god.

so you can have faith and still use 'evidence', so long as you don't actually try to explain any of it.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Well, actually I call it common sense.

I don't have to assume as true what common sense already presupposes.

If you have ever worked with someone who lacks common sense, then you will realize that common sense is an assumption. cool

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If you have ever worked with someone who lacks common sense, then you will realize that common sense is an assumption. cool

Merriam-Webster's defines common sense as:

"sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts"

In the case of the material universe and world, and the complexity of life, simple perception of this situation or facts presupposes that no natural thing can be without designer, creator, manufacturer, beginning, father, or mother.

It's just sound and prudent judgment of the situation or facts, and provable based on the scientific method.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
...In the case of the material universe and world, and the complexity of life, simple perception of this situation or facts presupposes that no natural thing can be without designer, creator, manufacturer, beginning, father, or mother.

It's just sound and prudent judgment of the situation or facts, and provable based on the scientific method.

That is an assumption.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is an assumption.

It's not an assumption if it's provable by the scientific method.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is an assumption.

It's not an assumption if it's provable using the Scientific Method.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Why would you call that as assumption of proof? I believe that all natural things have a beginning, designer, manufacturer, father, mother, or creator.

This can be proven using the scientific method.

In this case I believe that the material universe and planet earth with all of its complexity and life must of necessity been created. I know of no other Person qualified to pull off such an amazing feat other than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob i.e. the God of the Bible.

Why was only the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob capable of making the universe?

How do you explain Yaweh prior to Moses elevating him to one and only God existed as a minor deity in Caananite religion? El being the hebrew word for God, and "El", was also the name of the chief Caananite god, El had 70 sons according to their religion and one of them was Yaweh. Deuteronomy 32:8-9 is often cited for this.

How does this fit with everything?

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Why was only the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob capable of making the universe?

How do you explain Yaweh prior to Moses elevating him to one and only God existed as a minor deity in Canaanite religion? El being the hebrew word for God, and "El", was also the name of the chief Caananite god, El had 70 sons according to their religion and one of them was Yaweh. Deuteronomy 32:8-9 is often cited for this.

How does this fit with everything?

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is only capable of creating the universe because He is the living God. All other gods are false, idols, or non-living.

The God of the Bible identifies Himself as "I Am." Jesus Christ also identifies Himself as "I Am.' No other god does this.

Yahweh of the Bible has a Son who died for the sins of humanity, and Who rose from the dead. No other god had a son who did this.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is only capable of creating the universe because He is the living God. All other gods are false, idols, or non-living.

The God of the Bible identifies Himself as "I Am." Jesus Christ also identifies Himself as "I Am.' No other god does this.

Yahweh of the Bible has a Son who died for the sins of humanity, and Who rose from the dead. No other god had a son who did this.

Horus!

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Horus!

Horus was not resurrected for our sins.

Pharaoh was believed to be the incarnation of Horus and he (Pharaoh) is dead.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Horus was not resurrected for our sins.

Pharaoh was believed to be the incarnation of Horus and he (Pharaoh) is dead.

So is Jesus.

Damn! I think I scared him off.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Horus was not resurrected for our sins.

Pharaoh was believed to be the incarnation of Horus and he (Pharaoh) is dead.

Why is resurrection so important? The sacrifice of Jesus was noble, and I thought it was the sacrifice that mattered.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Why is resurrection so important? The sacrifice of Jesus was noble, and I thought it was the sacrifice that mattered.

Final payment for the sins of the whole world had been made through the sacrificial, substitutionary death of Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race.

Jesus Christ's spirit then descended into Hades to serve humanity's sentence.

Divine justice and wrath against sin (specifically sinful humanity) had been satisfied.

God did not leave Jesus' soul in Hades but resurrected it along with the body of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ became the Firstborn of the dead when God resurrected His flesh and bone glorified body from the dead and His spirit from Hades.

Jesus Christ rose from the dead thus conquering the law of sin and death. Now anyone who trusts in Jesus Christ for salvation from sin will also be resurrected from the dead.

If Jesus Christ had not risen from the dead then no one else would be able to rise from the dead.

This is why faith is so vital to Christianity.

lil bitchiness
What happens to those who have never heard of Jesus?

What about those who have been born in any other particular religion such as Hindus or Buddhists?

It's pretty much a lottery if you're going to Hell or Heaven according to your reasoning.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What happens to those who have never heard of Jesus?

What about those who have been born in any other particular religion such as Hindus or Buddhists?

It's pretty much a lottery if you're going to Hell or Heaven according to your reasoning.

God is merciful I believe that He has already taken this into consideration and has devised a plan for those who have not heard the gospel.

All must have an opportunity to either accept or reject Christ's sacrificial payment for our sins.

lil bitchiness
I have this argument with Muslims a lot, but it applies to Jews and Christians.

God is merciful, I agree, and compassionate as well. I'd like to think I'm compassionate and merciful as well, to all beings, but infinitely less so than God.
God is perfect in everything.

Now, me as imperfect being cannot imagine endorsing my worst enemy being burned and tortured to death for all eternity. Muhammad, for example, was a vile man who did many vile things in his lifetime, from pillaging to murder to rape and paedophilia to extermination of entire tribes. He left behind an ideology and his sunnah (practice) which has been emulated and as a result millions have suffered and are suffering.

Taking all this into account I would not wish to know that God has thrown this man for an ETERNAL punishment forever and ever and ever and I sincerely hope that he hasn't. This, even if he has done all those things, is an excessive punishment unfitting of a deity who is merciful, kind and all good.

Those who have done evil to other humans should repay their evil to other humans whom they have caused pain. It would make sense for God to, instead of throwing them into Hell, take them back to Earth as our lives are our suffering. Re-living again will make the spirit mature, grow in wisdom and enlightenment, and perhaps after thousand of lifetimes be fitting to be with God.

85 years is too short of a period of time to merit an eternal punishment.

Something is wrong somewhere with your interpretation of God. I'm not saying you're ''wrong'', I just feel it's offensive to an idea of a deity you're propagating.

Robtard
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
God is merciful I believe that He has already taken this into consideration and has devised a plan for those who have not heard the gospel.

All must have an opportunity to either accept or reject Christ's sacrificial payment for our sins.

Settled then, I (and all over non-Christians) can accept Jesus at the pearly gates.

So no need to preach.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I have this argument with Muslims a lot, but it applies to Jews and Christians.

God is merciful, I agree, and compassionate as well. I'd like to think I'm compassionate and merciful as well, to all beings, but infinitely less so than God.
God is perfect in everything.

Now, me as imperfect being cannot imagine endorsing my worst enemy being burned and tortured to death for all eternity. Muhammad, for example, was a vile man who did many vile things in his lifetime, from pillaging to murder to rape and paedophilia to extermination of entire tribes. He left behind an ideology and his sunnah (practice) which has been emulated and as a result millions have suffered and are suffering.

Taking all this into account I would not wish to know that God has thrown this man for an ETERNAL punishment forever and ever and ever and I sincerely hope that he hasn't. This, even if he has done all those things, is an excessive punishment unfitting of a deity who is merciful, kind and all good.

Those who have done evil to other humans should repay their evil to other humans whom they have caused pain. It would make sense for God to, instead of throwing them into Hell, take them back to Earth as our lives are our suffering. Re-living again will make the spirit mature, grow in wisdom and enlightenment, and perhaps after thousand of lifetimes be fitting to be with God.


85 years is too short of a period of time to merit an eternal punishment or eternal happiness.

Something is wrong somewhere with your interpretation of God. I'm not saying it's ''wrong'', I just feel it's offensive to an idea of a deity you're propagating.

"There is a way which seems right to a man (or a person) but the end thereof is the way of death.

The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."


Moreover, the Bible instructs us to "Trust in the Lord with all of our heart, lean not to our own understanding, in all our ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct our paths." (Proverbs 14:12 and 3:5-6; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

Well, I did not write the Bible nor am I or anyone else in a position to question God's righteousness since we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

This is why God--in His Word--commands us to trust Him. He knew that we would have the thoughts that you have before the universe was created.

All I can advise you and anyone else to do is trust God. Trust that His justice is right. Trust that His mercy endures forever.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Robtard
Settled then, I (and all over non-Christians) can accept Jesus at the pearly gates.

So no need to preach.

It is appointed unto men (people) to die once, and after this the judgment. (Hebrews 9:27)

So I do not believe that you will have the opportunity to see the pearly gates if you die in your sins without the Blood of Jesus Christ having first washed away your sins.

Remember it is the Blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses us from our sins; thus enabling us to stand before God righteous, as though we've never sinned.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
It is appointed unto men (people) to die once, and after this the judgment. (Hebrews 9:27)

So I do not believe that you will have the opportunity to see the pearly gates if you die in your sins without the Blood of Jesus Christ having first washed away your sins.

Remember it is the Blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses us from our sins; thus enabling us to stand before God righteous, as though we've never sinned.

So it doesn't matter what evil we've done as the blood of Jesus will wash it away. Those with comparatively less evil or no evil will suffer as their disbelief is punished.

Seriously, I don't think Jesus would approve of your interpretations. Considering how inclusive of everyone he actually was this seems a radical turn around.

dadudemon
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
So it doesn't matter what evil we've done as the blood of Jesus will wash it away. Those with comparatively less evil or no evil will suffer as their disbelief is punished.

Seriously, I don't think Jesus would approve of your interpretations. Considering how inclusive of everyone he actually was this seems a radical turn around.

I do believe his same New Testament says that the "Heathens in China" are saved in their ignorance.


Looks like another example of a Christian Cherry-Picking what beliefs they want to follow?

Robtard
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
It is appointed unto men (people) to die once, and after this the judgment. (Hebrews 9:27)

So I do not believe that you will have the opportunity to see the pearly gates if you die in your sins without the Blood of Jesus Christ having first washed away your sins.

Remember it is the Blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses us from our sins; thus enabling us to stand before God righteous, as though we've never sinned.

You just said above "God is merciful"; that would be the merciful.

So now you're just crapping all over what you previously said. Make up your mind, man.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Robtard
You just said above "God is merciful"; that would be the merciful.

So now you're just crapping all over what you previously said. Make up your mind, man.

In order for God to be righteous and holy He must judge and punish sin or He is not good.

God demonstrates His mercy to sinful humanity by sending His innocent sin-less Son to die for the world (this is evidence of God's love for humanity).

God is both just and merciful, but He is not a fool.

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. (Galatians 6:7)

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
So it doesn't matter what evil we've done as the blood of Jesus will wash it away. Those with comparatively less evil or no evil will suffer as their disbelief is punished.

Seriously, I don't think Jesus would approve of your interpretations. Considering how inclusive of everyone he actually was this seems a radical turn around.

The only sin that is not forgivable obviously is the sin of rejecting Jesus for or because His shed Blood is the only Blood capable of washing away (i.e. paying for) the sins of the world.

Salvation is of the Jews i.e. it originated with them (as a starting point) but it was the plan of God Almighty all along to reach the world (i.e. the Gentiles) as well.

Esau Cairn
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
In order for God to be righteous and holy He must judge and punish sin or He is not good.

God demonstrates His mercy to sinful humanity by sending His innocent sin-less Son to die for the world (this is evidence of God's love for humanity).

God is both just and merciful, but He is not a fool.

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. (Galatians 6:7)


You know I've never come across a Catholic or a Christian who automatically starts quoting from the bible to justify their faith.
Like sheep or drones, they just can't quite justify their faith by their own thoughts or experiences...

Seriously, JesusIsAlive, I ask you to justify your faith in God. In your own words & life-experience. I for one, have lost my faith in God & I have my own experiences in life to prove it.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The only sin that is not forgivable obviously is the sin of rejecting Jesus for or because His shed Blood is the only Blood capable of washing away (i.e. paying for) the sins of the world.

Salvation is of the Jews i.e. it originated with them (as a starting point) but it was the plan of God Almighty all along to reach the world (i.e. the Gentiles) as well.

See, you're interpreting this wrong.

As my understanding is, God does punish every sin, for he is just, but Jesus has repaid that punishment himself. He doesn't actually wash away your sins, he pays for them.

Or so the dogma says. But perhaps different denominations of Christianity believe different things, I don't know. This is my understanding.

dadudemon
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
See, you're interpreting this wrong.

As my understanding is, God does punish every sin, for he is just, but Jesus has repaid that punishment himself. He doesn't actually wash away your sins, he pays for them.

Or so the dogma says. But perhaps different denominations of Christianity believe different things, I don't know. This is my understanding.
No, you're correct. It's one of the very few things that almost all Christians agree on.


Fundamental to Christianity is the sacrifice of a perfect man to pay the price of humanity's sins. Then the conquering of death and resurrection.

All other squabbles in Christianity are about things other than the above.



Some say Christ only rose in Spirit. Some say Christ was not a god until he was resurrected. But they all still believe in the Atonement.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
You know I've never come across a Catholic or a Christian who automatically starts quoting from the bible to justify their faith.
Like sheep or drones, they just can't quite justify their faith by their own thoughts or experiences...

Seriously, JesusIsAlive, I ask you to justify your faith in God. In your own words & life-experience. I for one, have lost my faith in God & I have my own experiences in life to prove it.

Catholics are Christians.
I do have to add that JesusIsAlive has very rigid view that applies only to those who think as himself but excludes many other views.

Take, dadudemon for example. We're in totally different religions, but our views overlap on many many religious issues. This will be next to impossible with JesusIsAlive and others who are different in view.

I have my faith in God, and faith needs no justification. Feeling of God is personal - why and more importantly, how could one possibly justify that to you or anybody else?
It's a weird request. Faith is personal. Let us leave it that way.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
...All must have an opportunity to either accept or reject Christ's sacrificial payment for our sins.

Why? I would think that if Jesus was the son of god, then his sacrifice would have been enough to save everyone regardless of what they do. This restriction seems to limit the power of god.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
See, you're interpreting this wrong.

As my understanding is, God does punish every sin, for he is just, but Jesus has repaid that punishment himself. He doesn't actually wash away your sins, he pays for them.

Or so the dogma says. But perhaps different denominations of Christianity believe different things, I don't know. This is my understanding.

As far as the unbeliever is concerned the only sin that will get him in Hell is the sin of rejecting Jesus Christ because Jesus has already paid for humanity's sins.

Yes, the Blood of Jesus Christ, Son of the living God does wash away our sins, if we confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe that God has raised Him from the dead.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the Firstborn from the dead, and the Ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
You know I've never come across a Catholic or a Christian who automatically starts quoting from the bible to justify their faith.
Like sheep or drones, they just can't quite justify their faith by their own thoughts or experiences...

Seriously, JesusIsAlive, I ask you to justify your faith in God. In your own words & life-experience. I for one, have lost my faith in God & I have my own experiences in life to prove it.

If you are referring to me quoting from the Bible I do it because "the gospel of Christ, it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek."

(Romans 1:16)

I don't really know/understand what you mean by justify my faith. My faith needs no justification. It is what it is, I believe what I believe by faith. Moreover, like the Apostle Paul said to the Corinthian church,

"my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God." (1 Corinthians 2:4-5)

My experience or thoughts are not going to save you from your sins or Hell, will not raise you from the dead, and will not be your Judge when you stand before God. You will not have to give account to God based on my life, thoughts, or experiences. Again, I believe what I believe and I chose to share that with you--but

"It is the Spirit Who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63).

My thoughts and experiences will not profit you when you are on your deathbed faced with the most important decision of your life. I can only tell you that my experience of giving my heart and life to Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins is the best and most important decision I have ever made in my life because of the eternal ramifications.

My thoughts to you are that you should do the same before your soul is required of you. (Luke 12:16-20)

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why? I would think that if Jesus was the son of god, then his sacrifice would have been enough to save everyone regardless of what they do. This restriction seems to limit the power of god.

The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is exceedingly efficacious. But Jesus Christ is only able to save those who choose to be saved by Him. Jesus Christ will not force anyone to be saved and go to Heaven when they die. Believe it or not some people are atheists. Some people are satanists. Some people are Buddhists, Hindus, etc. Some people believe that Hell will be one big party where they will get to see their friends. Some people are evolutionists. Some people are agnostics. The lists goes on. The point is that the Lord Jesus permits humanity to choose their own way, their own destiny--Heaven or Hell. He sets before you life and death, blessing and cursing and then commands you to choose.

The Lord will only save those who want to be saved: those who choose Him.

"Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:25)

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is exceedingly efficacious. But Jesus Christ is only able to save those who choose to be saved by Him. Jesus Christ will not force anyone to be saved and go to Heaven when they die. Believe it or not some people are atheists. Some people are satanists. Some people are Buddhists, Hindus, etc. Some people believe that Hell will be one big party where they will get to see their friends. Some people are evolutionists. Some people are agnostics. The lists goes on. The point is that the Lord Jesus permits humanity to choose their own way, their own destiny--Heaven or Hell. He sets before you life and death, blessing and cursing and then commands you to choose.

The Lord will only save those who want to be saved: those who choose Him.



I don't believe in human sacrifice. This idea that humans are condemned to go to hell, unless there is a scapegoat, is stupidity at it's highest level.

Hell is a state of mind that we choose to enter or leave.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't believe in human sacrifice. This idea that humans are condemned to go to hell, unless there is a scapegoat, is stupidity at it's highest level.

Hell is a state of mind that we choose to enter or leave.

You don't believe in human sacrifice? Well do you believe in human death?

Death is a fact of life whether you believe in it or not.

Why do you believe that Hell is a state of mind?

I believe that Hell is a literal place based on the Biblical record.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You don't believe in human sacrifice? Well do you believe in human death?

Death is a fact of life whether you believe in it or not.

Why do you believe that Hell is a state of mind?

I believe that Hell is a literal place based on the Biblical record.

I do not believe in sacrificing a person's life for the sins of others. I also would not be in favor of a father allowing his son to die on the cross for sins of other people. To me, this father would be evil, especially if he had the power to wipe away the sins of other people without the death of his son.


Are you telling me that God has limits?

You do know that Babylonians sacrificed their children?

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I do not believe in sacrificing a person's life for the sins of others. I also would not be in favor of a father allowing his son to die on the cross for sins of other people. To me, this father would be evil, especially if he had the power to wipe away the sins of other people without the death of his son.


Are you telling me that God has limits?

By virtue of God's holiness and His good, just, and righteous character it would be unthinkable that He would just wipe away sin. God cannot wipe away sin and be just.

Sin must be punished.

Sin cannot simply be swept under the rug.

No good judge and prosecuting attorney would allow a heinous crime to go unpunished no matter how much power they have to expunge it or wipe it away.

Sin is a heinous crime against God's established standard of what is righteous and good. He sets the bar or mark because He is the Creator. The standard is Himself. Anyone who is not able to measure up to Him in terms of holiness and righteousness is a sinner.

Sin is missing the mark. Fallen humanity has missed the mark.

I apologize for this crude illustration but suppose the United States Justice System worked that way. What if someone who you know very well, such as a family member or spouse were beaten, raped, tortured and then murdered in front of your very eyes. Would you want that individual to just go scot-free so that he can commit the same crime to other innocent people, or would you want that vile person off of the streets where he cannot do another person harm?

For the good of others heartless criminals should not be allowed to live amongst society because they are too dangerous. However, God's standard of righteousness is higher than humanity's standard. In God's eyes one sin--no matter how seemingly trivial--subjects the sinner to death because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23)

God's standard is so high that no one can keep it except God Himself. God is so holy that His standard is not attainable apart from His Spirit living on the inside of us, and without the shed Blood of His Son Jesus Christ on deposit in Heaven as a constant reminder of our inability, and of His sacrifice on our behalf.

Can you see why humanity needs a Savior?

Can you see why the world needs Jesus?

No true parent can just permit their child to murder someone in cold blood, and then just wipe it away by looking the other way and not reporting the child. That would not make you a good, just, or righteous person let alone parent.

Shakyamunison
JIA

Your god is limited.

You do know that Babylonians sacrificed their children?

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
JIA

Your god is limited.

You do know that Babylonians sacrificed their children?

I wrote all of that and that's all that you can say?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I wrote all of that and that's all that you can say?

I didn't want excuses for your limited god. wink

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I didn't want excuses for your limited god. wink

You made no effort to engage me in intelligent conversation.

sad

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You made no effort to engage me in intelligent conversation.

sad

Did too... stick out tongue

Don't you see how human sacrifice is wrong and evil?

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Did too... stick out tongue

Don't you see how human sacrifice is wrong and evil?

I put a lot of effort into my response and it seemed that you just blew it off.

sad confused

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I put a lot of effort into my response and it seemed that you just blew it off.

sad confused

Ok we will take it one step at a time:

"By virtue of God's holiness and His good, just, and righteous character it would be unthinkable that He would just wipe away sin. God cannot wipe away sin and be just."

In other words: god cannot do that.

"Sin must be punished."

No, that is wrong. Sometimes we must look beyond ourselves and forgive others without compensation.

"Sin cannot simply be swept under the rug."

Unconditional forgiveness is not "swept under the rug". If it is then it is not unconditional.

"No good judge and prosecuting attorney would allow a heinous crime to go unpunished no matter how much power they have to expunge it or wipe it away."

Unconditional forgiveness is something your god cannot do.

"Sin is a heinous crime against God's established standard of what is righteous and good. He sets the bar or mark because He is the Creator. The standard is Himself. Anyone who is not able to measure up to Him in terms of holiness and righteousness is a sinner. "

To me, this is the thinking of a child. An adult would realize that correction must have a positive goal.

"Sin is missing the mark. Fallen humanity has missed the mark."

That is way unconditional forgiveness is required.

"I apologize for this crude illustration but suppose the United States Justice System worked that way. What if someone who you know very well, such as a family member or spouse were beaten, raped, tortured and then murdered in front of your very eyes. Would you want that individual to just go scot-free so that he can commit the same crime to other innocent people, or would you want that vile person off of the streets where he cannot do another person harm?"

I would not be for that persons death. They should be stopped from doing more harm, but I do not believe that the punishment of that person will undo the damage they did. I would hope they grow and become a better person before they die. That way when they are reincarnated they will not repeat the crime in a new life.

"For the good of others heartless criminals should not be allowed to live amongst society because they are too dangerous. However, God's standard of righteousness is higher than humanity's standard. In God's eyes one sin--no matter how seemingly trivial--subjects the sinner to death because the wages of sin is death"

That is very limited point of view.

"God's standard is so high that no one can keep it except God Himself. God is so holy that His standard is not attainable apart from His Spirit living on the inside of us, and without the shed Blood of His Son Jesus Christ on deposit in Heaven as a constant reminder of our inability, and of His sacrifice on our behalf."

Again, the lack of vision to understand the human condition is just wrong.

"Can you see why humanity needs a Savior?"

No.

"Can you see why the world needs Jesus?"

Yes, we need every Bodhisattva we can get.

"No true parent can just permit their child to murder someone in cold blood, and then just wipe it away by looking the other way and not reporting the child. That would not make you a good, just, or righteous person let alone parent."

I have already answered this one above. To put it simply: the state of mind of the criminal will be taken with them, unchanged, into their next life.

Now do you see why I didn't want to answer? I really care about you my friend, and I don't want my beliefs to hurt you.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Shakyamunison

"Can you see why the world needs Jesus?"

Yes, we need every Bodhisattva we can get.

Interesting thought. I was just reading about this yesterday. I kind of like this idea, too.

Mindship
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes, we need every Bodhisattva we can get. Indeed.

JesusIsAlive

Shakyamunison

Esau Cairn
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive



My thoughts and experiences will not profit you when you are on your deathbed faced with the most important decision of your life. I can only tell you that my experience of giving my heart and life to Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins is the best and most important decision I have ever made in my life because of the eternal ramifications.

My thoughts to you are that you should do the same before your soul is required of you. (Luke 12:16-20)

Let me share with you the point in my life when I lost my faith...

My aunt grew up believing in God. As a child she went to church every Sunday with her parents & every night she prayed her thanks & gratitude. She truly believed there was a God.
In her late twenties, she married & gave birth to a sweet little girl.

At the age of 33, when her little daughter was only 5, my aunt was diagnosed with terminal cancer. My aunt still prayed to God. She prayed for her little girl to have strength & never feel alone in life with God at her side.

On her death bed, her husband of 7 yrs came to the hospital & announced that he's had a gambling problem & lost what life savings they had. He also further announced that he would not be able to look after their daughter.

My aunt who had faith in God & devoted her life to him, died with the knowledge that she was leaving behind a homeless 5 yr old.

Now justify to me, where was God there?
What "Divine Plan" did he have that warranted leaving a 5yr old child homeless?
Why bring her into this world in the first place only to take both her parents away?
Why did God mock my aunt's faith the way he did?

Shakyamunison
Esau Cairn, sorry to hear your sad story.

I am not a Christian, but I would like to try and answer the questions above.

I don't believe in the Christian god, but sometimes belief has a benefit that is tangible, and real. Your aunts belief my have been the only thing helping her in the end. It doesn't matter if it's real or not.

As far as your cousin, she has family, hopefully, someone will take care of her, and she will have a good life.

Forgive my intrusion, but I will be surprised if JIA answers you.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Let me share with you the point in my life when I lost my faith...

My aunt grew up believing in God. As a child she went to church every Sunday with her parents & every night she prayed her thanks & gratitude. She truly believed there was a God.
In her late twenties, she married & gave birth to a sweet little girl.

At the age of 33, when her little daughter was only 5, my aunt was diagnosed with terminal cancer. My aunt still prayed to God. She prayed for her little girl to have strength & never feel alone in life with God at her side.

On her death bed, her husband of 7 yrs came to the hospital & announced that he's had a gambling problem & lost what life savings they had. He also further announced that he would not be able to look after their daughter.

My aunt who had faith in God & devoted her life to him, died with the knowledge that she was leaving behind a homeless 5 yr old.

Now justify to me, where was God there?
What "Divine Plan" did he have that warranted leaving a 5yr old child homeless?
Why bring her into this world in the first place only to take both her parents away?
Why did God mock my aunt's faith the way he did?

My mother is diagnosed with terminal cancer, but I do not blame God for it. In fact, it hasn't even crossed my mind. I have taught my mother to meditate and to make sure that the biggest part of her body is the mind and she'll have the ability to, if not heal herself, extend her life.

Happiness does not exist without suffering.

I believe in God, but I have not once blamed him for any shitty thing that happened to me, nor have I stopped believing in God. God is my spiritual guide - bad things that happen to me are of my own doing, my own bad thoughts and bad actions which have contributed to the shitty situation.

Even worse thing is that my bad actions sometimes lead others into pain and suffering, which is even bigger shit, not brought on my God, but by myself to others.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
bad things that happen to me are of my own doing, my own bad thoughts and bad actions which have contributed to the shitty situation.

So when your mother got cancer was it your fault or her fault?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So when your mother got cancer was it your fault or her fault?

I clearly said bad things that happen to ME. Cancer is a bad thing that happened to my mother that affected me.

It was nobody's fault - If we knew what caused it exactly, we might be able to discuss and determine it.
Clearly, since we can't point to anyone, it must be God's fault.

P.S Just one more thing - keep trolling and baiting me from threat to thread and I will ban you.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I clearly said bad things that happen to ME. Cancer is a bad thing that happened to my mother that affected me.

Seems like this leave three possiblities:
Eitheryou don't believe that principle applies to people other than yourself.
Or you don't believe that the principle applies to things like getting cancer.
Or you believe your mother gave herself cancer.

I assume its the second but you sound more like your arguing for the first one (which honestly makes the least sense to me).

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
It was nobody's fault - If we knew what caused it exactly, we might be able to discuss and determine it.
Clearly, since we can't point to anyone, it must be God's fault.

God claims absolute authority over the universe and everyone within it. That comes with responsibility.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
P.S Just one more thing - keep trolling and baiting me from threat to thread and I will ban you.

When did I follow you around "trolling and baiting" you? This is the first time we've spoken in weeks.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Seems like this leave three possiblities:
Eitheryou don't believe that principle applies to people other than yourself.
Or you don't believe that the principle applies to things like getting cancer.
Or you believe your mother gave herself cancer.

I assume its the second but you sound more like your arguing for the first one (which honestly makes the least sense to me).



God claims absolute authority over the universe and everyone within it. That comes with responsibility.



When did I follow you around "trolling and baiting" you? This is the first time we've spoken in weeks.

You can't really say what my God has authority over and what he doesn't. Different ideas of God.

Since cancer isn't an 'outside' disease, it's created in my mother's body, by her own cells, so her cells have her cancer. And I'd like to move away from this conversation. You may use other examples, than my mother.

I tolerated your random trolling and baiting before - this is kind of a straw that broke the camel's back. I have given you my warning. You can accept it and back off, or reject it and get banned.

inimalist
wait, how is this trolling? I'd just like to know so I don't accidentally do it...

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You can't really say what my God has authority over and what he doesn't. Different ideas of God.

Fair enough but I can't be expected to understand such a vague, personal term without your help. You tossed it out there. I used the definition of that that is standard in my culture.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Since cancer isn't an 'outside' disease, it's created in my mother's body, by her own cells, so her cells have her cancer. And I'd like to move away from this conversation. You may use other examples, than my mother.

What defines an "outside" disease to you? I'm not familiar with the term. Bacteria come from the outside but I assume you'd say that the disease they cause in people is in the bacterial cells.

Is an "outside" disease supposed to be mental/spiritual?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I tolerated your random trolling and baiting before - this is kind of a straw that broke the camel's back. I have given you my warning. You can accept it and back off, or reject it and get banned.

What random trolling and baiting? We haven't spoken for weeks and I've done nothing in this conversation but ask you to clarify a disturbing statement.

dadudemon
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
My mother is diagnosed with terminal cancer, but I do not blame God for it. In fact, it hasn't even crossed my mind. I have taught my mother to meditate and to make sure that the biggest part of her body is the mind and she'll have the ability to, if not heal herself, extend her life.

Happiness does not exist without suffering.

I believe in God, but I have not once blamed him for any shitty thing that happened to me, nor have I stopped believing in God. God is my spiritual guide - bad things that happen to me are of my own doing, my own bad thoughts and bad actions which have contributed to the shitty situation.

Even worse thing is that my bad actions sometimes lead others into pain and suffering, which is even bigger shit, not brought on my God, but by myself to others.

Yes, we largely agree here, too. Unlike most Christians, I do not ascribe God to being this devious malevolent being that actively harms his children to "teach them life's lessons".

IMO, God is far more deistic than that petty God that SC was talking about (I agree, SC, I don't like that God too much).

Because I am Mormon, we believe that WE chose to come here and go through this pain and suffering: not God. We believe that there were plenty of other things we could do but we chose a mortal life to grow and understand. Why? Just as you stated, we could not know true happiness unless we knew the bad.


So when people like Christians say, "God is giving me trials so I can grow", I don't quite agree with that. I believe that they themselves chose those trials because they made the free-will choice to be born into this life.



And "pain and suffering" are subjective perspectives that of course do have a genetic drive. Some people refuse to take anesthesia for personal or religious reasons...and some of them go through surgery (I can't even imagine this, but they do it). Some of them succeed and some of them have to be anesthetized for everyone's safety (because they freak the **** out once the pain hits).



So, yeah, I pretty much agree with your entire perspective. Usually, we cause all of the bad to ourselves and others. Sometimes, it happens naturally as part of nature. But, at the end of it all, it is our perception that decides whether or not it is pain or suffering.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by inimalist
wait, how is this trolling? I'd just like to know so I don't accidentally do it...

You'll know when you do it. If you don't, I'll remind you.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Fair enough but I can't be expected to understand such a vague, personal term without your help. You tossed it out there. I used the definition of that that is standard in my culture.



What defines an "outside" disease to you? I'm not familiar with the term. Bacteria come from the outside but I assume you'd say that the disease they cause in people is in the bacterial cells.

Is an "outside" disease supposed to be mental/spiritual?



What random trolling and baiting? We haven't spoken for weeks and I've done nothing in this conversation but ask you to clarify a disturbing statement.

The only time you do speak or quote is either to bait or troll. I guess last couple of weeks there was nothing to troll on, also considering I didn't actually post for a short period.

Anyway, I already said all I had to on that subject. I don't like repeating it.

Omega Vision
I don't think Sym is trolling at all. Not in this thread anyway.

I know what Sym trolling looks like, it involves him wishing harm on Libertarians.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The only time you do speak or quote is either to bait or troll. I guess last couple of weeks there was nothing to troll on, also considering I didn't actually post for a short period.

The last thing of mine you commented about was when I pointed out a few flaws in Shakya's thing about black holes. I don't think that was trolling.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Anyway, I already said all I had to on that subject. I don't like repeating it.

But you never said anything about what an "outside" disease is. Is it trolling to be confused by your personal dictionary that you haven't explained? I feel Googling the terms "outside disease" and "inside disease" is a good faith effort to try and understand.

If you really don't want to discuss this, okay I'll let it drop.

Esau Cairn
See, everyone who believes in God says we must have Faith in His Divine Plan & yet the same people with said Faith further claim that we are just mere mortals unworthy & unable to comprehend His Almighty.

It's like signing a contract you're not allowed to read first, then getting fired or sued for breaking it.

I didn't ask to be created & yet in a Christian's beliefs I was born with the burden of Original Sin. In that sense I was born with the absence of holiness & perfect clarity & then I am judged for it.
Further more if Original sin is hereditary all the way back to Adam, then I can assure you that a) My bloodlines will not be traced back to the Garden Of Eden in the Middle East & b) Scientific fact states we evolved & were not descendants of Adam & Eve.

I mean what exactly are we supposed to have Faith in?
Why does The Almighty need to test us mortals?
He chose to walk the earth thousands of years ago in a time humanity was at its humblest form....why it is such heresy to question why doesn't he make an appearance again to justify his existence to add substance in our Faith to believe him?

dadudemon
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
See, everyone who believes in God says we must have Faith in His Divine Plan & yet the same people with said Faith further claim that we are just mere mortals unworthy & unable to comprehend His Almighty.

Did you read my post on this? I addressed this point.

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
It's like signing a contract you're not allowed to read first, then getting fired or sued for breaking it.

I addressed this, too.

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
I didn't ask to be created & yet in a Christian's beliefs I was born with the burden of Original Sin. In that sense I was born with the absence of holiness & perfect clarity & then I am judged for it.
Further more if Original sin is hereditary all the way back to Adam, then I can assure you that a) My bloodlines will not be traced back to the Garden Of Eden in the Middle East & b) Scientific fact states we evolved & were not descendants of Adam & Eve.

Well, Mormons do not think you were created. We believe your consciousness/intelligence has always existed compared our knowledge of time. It was God that organized your intelligence into a spirit, but the process is not understood too well. Also, I don't believe that we are responsible for original sin, at all. That's mostly a catholic belief. Pretty much all protestants do not believe in original sin, as well.

And, you are correct on the science and Adam and Eve stuff. I believe Adam and Eve were real people but their story is almost all allegory. Also, in Mormonism...and I am not supposed to tell you this (lol)...but right when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden, there was already people in the world using things like money and "false" magics.


I tell you all of this stuff because your concerns are/were my same concerns. I feel most comfortable with Mormonism due to it addressing some most of my concerns.

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
I mean what exactly are we supposed to have Faith in?
Why does The Almighty need to test us mortals?
He chose to walk the earth thousands of years ago in a time humanity was at its humblest form....why it is such heresy to question why doesn't he make an appearance again to justify his existence to add substance in our Faith to believe him?

I addressed that, too. It is not God testing us, it is us testing us. We chose mortality. We had the choice of tons of other shit like...maybe being a spiritual scientist where we study, in a very objective and innocent way, all the different cultures that come into being. We could be a chronicler. We could be a guardian angle. We could be messengers (why does God need a messenger?)

And Christ was considered to have come in the meridian of time: the meridian of human civilization. And it is not heresy to question why he is not here: I think such a being would welcome your questioning. The God I believe in (and the God that all Christians should believe in) would rather you be evil than luke-warm. He would rather you be completely secular and scientific than be lackadaisical or apathetic. He also encourages the seeking of knowledge.


So if you go through life seeking out science and understanding, you will not be faulted for it, imo. At least, this is what I believe about the God I believe in. I have no way to back up what I say with science other than my personal prayers, pragmatism, and observation.

Esau Cairn
Yeah Dadudemon, I did read your post & respected your Mormonism (sp?) however you did lose me with comments like, "WE chose to come here & go through this pain & suffering" OR "We chose mortality...we could've chosen to be anything."

When exactly in our mortal, human upbringing were we given a choice?
OR are you talking about a choice our ancestors made & we're bound by it?
Without sounding silly or insulting you...you make it sound like we were alien beings that chose this planet, this existence...that's where you've lost me.
Pain & suffering aren't subjective perceptions, they are a negative state of being. It's not a perception to grieve the dead, it's not an emotion to feel pain out of hunger or sickness.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Yeah Dadudemon, I did read your post & respected your Mormonism (sp?) however you did lose me with comments like, "WE chose to come here & go through this pain & suffering" OR "We chose mortality...we could've chosen to be anything."

Yeah, that's pretty much. Out of the nearly infinite things you could have chosen, you chose to be born as a mortal. That's a pretty rad decision, I think.

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
When exactly in our mortal, human upbringing were we given a choice?

A choice on what? If you're referring to a choice on what trials you face, you were given that choice in the pre-existance and chose to become mortal to grow and learn.

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
OR are you talking about a choice our ancestors made & we're bound by it?

Many choices your ancestors make directly impact your mortality, however, no I was not referring to that. Remember that I do not think we are punished for our father's sins? (Punished in the eternal sense, not the temporal. We are definitely punished, in the temporal sense, by our parent's bad choices).

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Without sounding silly or insulting you...you make it sound like we were alien beings that chose this planet, this existence...that's where you've lost me.

I never implied or stated that. However, that is possible. Mormons do not claim to know why we are here on the earth, just that we chose mortality to grow and develop as eternal beings.


Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Pain & suffering aren't subjective perceptions, they are a negative state of being.

No, they are perceptions of a negative state of being.


Originally posted by Esau Cairn
It's not a perception to grieve the dead,

But it is an emotion. One person may celebrate the dead instead of grieve.

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
it's not an emotion to feel pain out of hunger or sickness.

But it is a perception. I don't believe I ever argued that it is an emotion to feel pain from hunger or sickness.


It is not a crappy situation if you don't think it is.


The moment you lose the ability to think, though, is the moment perception and approach goes out of the window.

lil bitchiness
dadudemon, I have a question in regards to Mormonism. Is there only one Mormonism or have there been any schisms within Mormonism itself?

dadudemon
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
dadudemon, I have a question in regards to Mormonism. Is there only one Mormonism or have there been any schisms within Mormonism itself?

There are a few break offs. I don't know the exact history but there was the one that broke off due to the succession problem when Joseph Smith was killed.

Then there was another break off when we made the decree to no longer practice polygamy. I believe there are two other very small break aways from Mormonism.


The beliefs within each group vary with some major differences, at times.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
...
Without sounding silly or insulting you...you make it sound like we were alien beings that chose this planet, this existence...that's where you've lost me....


Is this your first exposure to Mormonism?

We suffer because of attachments.

lil bitchiness
I must admit, I don't know about Esau Cairn, but this is my first exposure to actual Mormonism. I've heard about it, but beyond what 'people say', I know nothing about it.

I still don't know much about it...

Esau Cairn
Dadudemon, you've done my head in with your explanations...don't get me wrong, I completely respect you & what you believe in but when you make statements like, "I chose to be mortal in the pre-existence...to grow & learn."...that is beyond my comprehension of where you're coming from.

Since I was 16 & that's nearly 28 years ago, nobody has had the ability to explain to me the notion of "blind faith" or the reason for the existence in God. It's not that I am head strong & stubborn, it's simply the fact that all my questions have always been answered in riddles, generalised statements or "tales" from the Bible.

red g jacks
Originally posted by dadudemon
Many choices your ancestors make directly impact your mortality, however, no I was not referring to that. Remember that I do not think we are punished for our father's sins? (Punished in the eternal sense, not the temporal. We are definitely punished, in the temporal sense, by our parent's bad choices). i have sort of a random question. you say choices our ancestors make impact our mortality, and you also say we existed as a spirit/consciousness prior to life on earth.

in your view, is the connection we share with our ancestors merely based on genetics or are we 'related' in spirit as well?

dadudemon
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Dadudemon, you've done my head in with your explanations...don't get me wrong, I completely respect you & what you believe in but when you make statements like, "I chose to be mortal in the pre-existence...to grow & learn."...that is beyond my comprehension of where you're coming from.

No, you're fine, dude.


Basically, Mormons believe in 3 states of existence. The pre-existence, (which is supposed to be outside of time...from some perspectives), the mortal existence, and the afterlife.


In the pre-existance, which may not have been bound by a "time" law like our universe is, we have always existed. We never did not exist. At some point (no way to make sense of it other than it is a different "timeline" of sorts), we decided that we wanted to leave God to grow and develop as spiritual beings. That required we make the right choices on our own, without being in God's presence and without our Godly knowledge.

This was our choice, not God's. We wanted to come here.

After we have lived our life (I am open to reincarnation, by the way. It is possible that our souls do reincarnate. I don't know, obviously), we judge ourselves (that's right...God doesn't judge us, we do). Then we obtain a heavenly glory based upon our judgement.

If we want to reject God completely, we can. We then go to a "place" (probably just a plane of existence) that is without God and His glory and this is what people commonly call hell. A person has to actively choose to go to hell, basically.

So that's how "life" works.

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Since I was 16 & that's nearly 28 years ago, nobody has had the ability to explain to me the notion of "blind faith" or the reason for the existence in God. It's not that I am head strong & stubborn, it's simply the fact that all my questions have always been answered in riddles, generalised statements or "tales" from the Bible.


Oh man...you should have read the discussion between Digi and I. Basically, my perspective is that everything boils down to blind faith: even science. The only way to obtain a sure (objective) knowledge is through omniscience which is impossible to obtain as a mere mortal. All other knowledge then boils down to subjective knowledge with rules applied to it so we can come to a consensus...such as science (empiricism, which actually a philosophy).

And, I do not like the riddles and tales from the bible, either. I like straight forward explanations because I am much more logical. However, it would appear that the Jews loved them and it was more of a social thing for them. In college, one of my classes showed me where the bible had a strong math influence with some of the symbolism. It gets absurd and I had no idea how much "geometry" is referenced.


But, I believe that a person that does well with their life to the best of their ability will be just fine in the afterlife. No reason to even follow a religion, in my humblest of opinions. If you do right by yourself and your fellow humans, you are righteous, imo. No religion required. The God I believe in (I believe this God to be the God of pretty much every culture in history...I believe we humans have defined this same being in many different ways and versions...but it is the same entity) does not get hung up on what religion you are or how many hail Mary's you have said. He just wants you to be happy, grow, and develop, as best as you can in this miserable life.


Originally posted by red g jacks
i have sort of a random question. you say choices our ancestors make impact our mortality, and you also say we existed as a spirit/consciousness prior to life on earth.

in your view, is the connection we share with our ancestors merely based on genetics or are we 'related' in spirit as well?

Good question. Some Mormons (and I myself, personally) believe that we chose our families in the pre-existence. We had friends and loved ones in the pre-existence. There is also the possibility and Mormon belief that we were assigned family members to create the absolute best scenario for our personal growth.

So, both, at the same time. I came to this conclusion based on very personal revelations via prayer. I feel extremely close to my mother, older sister, and older brother. So close that it feels like, all the time, that I have known them for a very long time (millennia...it seems like). However, I do not know my aunt very well, but it feels the same with her, as well. That doesn't make much sense but it just feels that way...and she has passed. sad


Also, some really weird things have happened that makes me think I knew someone else for eons before this life:

Here's the story:

I was driving home from work (7 years ago) and I was thinking about my day. Then a random thought popped into my mind that someone very dear to me was thinking about me. It wasn't just a random thought, it felt like a strong prompting of very peaceful love. But the though was quite clear: someone dear was thinking about me, and it did not feel like a family member.

So I picked up my cell (while still driving) and I called the person I thought was lovingly thinking about me. It was my future wife. smile The reason this situation is so odd is I had never had a prompting like this before, in my life (nor have I experienced it since then). What is also odd about this situation is I had only been on a date with my now wife for 6 dates. When I called her and told her that I knew she was thinking about me, she kind of freaked out. She thought I was at her house (lol) or something. When I told her that I knew she loved me, she got afraid that she would scare me away. I told her that her love felt so familiar that I knew her...quite well, without actually knowing her.

Well, after date number 10, I asked her to marry me.


Originally posted by Shakyamunison
We suffer because of attachments.

Just saw this.

I mostly agree. I think some attachments are good like love of fellow man (in general) and love of family.

Esau Cairn
As Red is asking above..."our ancestors" is a very broad description...is there an equation or formula that determines exactly which generation impacts our mortality?

If we existed spiritually prior to our life on Earth, then in the Mormon sense why did "some" of us choose a life of poverty & slavery in South Africa?
Why didn't we all choose to be born with the intellect to become millionaires by the age 16...world leaders by 19?

JesusIsAlive

dadudemon
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
As Red is asking above..."our ancestors" is a very broad description...is there an equation or formula that determines exactly which generation impacts our mortality?

None that I know of. As I answered red g jacks, some of us chose which families we would be born to, others were assigned.

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
If we existed spiritually prior to our life on Earth, then in the Mormon sense why did "some" of us choose a life of poverty & slavery in South Africa?

Some of us may have chosen that, some of us may not have chosen that. Some of us may have chosen to be born under a specific person because we wanted them to be our father or mother. But due to the choices made by your ancestors, you ended up choosing a life of poverty. However, you were aware of that outcome or possibility. You were also aware that you would be leaving God's presence making this a very painful life (if you view it that way). You chose this life, anyway. (This is in a very general and broad sense...not 'you' you...but ambiguous "you"wink.

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Why didn't we all choose to be born with the intellect to become millionaires by the age 16...world leaders by 19?

Actually, yes, some were, as they call it, foreordained to be great kings, queens, prophets, leaders, etc. in the pre-existence. And our "intelligence" under Mormon mythology, was determined when God organized our intelligence into a spirit. But what we did in this life, some of it at least, was determined and ordained in the pre-existance. You chose to accept or reject those callings. Some of those ordained to do great things may not have been able to do them due to bad choices from others: remember, we chose.

Still, others may chosen a life that was very easy, mortally, but difficult, spiritually. Can you imagine how hard it would have been to become a righteous person if you were born into a kingly family in the 1500s? It was all processional and pomp. Your physical well being was very well provided for. So what need is there for God? There isn't. You must create the need through a willingness to humble yourself. Not something easily done. So why would a person want to born in "hard mode"? That's one of the worst ways to be born, imo.

It's easy to be humble when you're poor and/or dying of starvation. You really do not have a choice. But it is not easy to be humble when you are a king or queen of a large land and have tons of power and "things" at your finger tips. A person born like that may have chosen/accepted such a calling, but they most likely knew of the problems associated with being born as such.


Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I would like to say that I am sorry for what happened to your family. The Word of God states:


thumb up

Well, at least this guy is not a prick. Glad he humbles himself enough to show respect.

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