Personification

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Shakyamunison
Why do religions make God into a person. If there was an all powerful, all knowing god, then it would seem that this god should be anything but human. It seems to me that the problem with the discussion of a god is hopelessly doomed because of Personification.

Any thoughts?

Mindship
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why do religions make God into a person. If there was an all powerful, all knowing god, then it would seem that this god should be anything but human. It seems to me that the problem with the discussion of a god is hopelessly doomed because of Personification.

Any thoughts? Personification makes, eg, an all-powerful, formless, invisible spirit tangible, especially if you're dealing with an illiterate population whose immediate concerns are more down to earth (eg, food, protection). It's nice to have a god you can reach out to, see and feel, especially if "He" is "human." But, yes, problems arise when a person, thing, symbol, etc, is deified. Then one starts to confuse the map for the territory, the menu for the meal.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Mindship
Personification makes, eg, an all-powerful, formless, invisible spirit tangible, especially if you're dealing with an illiterate population whose immediate concerns are more down to earth (eg, food, protection). It's nice to have a god you can reach out to, see and feel, especially if "He" is "human." But, yes, problems arise when a person, thing, symbol, etc, is deified. Then one starts to confuse the map for the territory, the menu for the meal.

Exactly. It leads to things like god needs or wants.

Mairuzu
Created by aliens!

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Mairuzu
Created by aliens!

That doesn't fix the problem. It just makes it more weird.

Mairuzu
**** yeah it does stoned


Would be quite interesting.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Mairuzu
**** yeah it does stoned


Would be quite interesting.

It's just a strange form of personification.

Digi
A few reasons.

One, we personify everything. We personify teddy bears and television sets, toasters and boats and shoelaces and roller coasters. We see Mother Teresa in a Cinnabon and people or animals in the clouds. We're biologically programmed for facial recognition from the womb. So not only is this tendency likely, it's probably inevitable.

Two, if you talk to priests or holy men of any tradition (and I'm including Christianity here) you do get into the idea of God as more of a transcendental force that can't be personified or explained. But it leads us to another important aspect of religion: memetic marketing. For an idea to travel, it needs certain memetic characteristics to "stick" with a person. God with a face sticks in the brains of the masses more easily than God as an abstract omniscient entity. So it's good business sense.

Three, of course, it helps that a third of Christianity's Trinity is, literally, a person. So ascribing personal characteristics to God is actually prescribed into their doctrine.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Digi
A few reasons.

One, we personify everything. We personify teddy bears and television sets, toasters and boats and shoelaces and roller coasters. We see Mother Teresa in a Cinnabon and people or animals in the clouds. We're biologically programmed for facial recognition from the womb. So not only is this tendency likely, it's probably inevitable.

Two, if you talk to priests or holy men of any tradition (and I'm including Christianity here) you do get into the idea of God as more of a transcendental force that can't be personified or explained. But it leads us to another important aspect of religion: memetic marketing. For an idea to travel, it needs certain memetic characteristics to "stick" with a person. God with a face sticks in the brains of the masses more easily than God as an abstract omniscient entity. So it's good business sense.

Three, of course, it helps that a third of Christianity's Trinity is, literally, a person. So ascribing personal characteristics to God is actually prescribed into their doctrine.

Marketing!

Jesus is a case of taking personification to an extreme. God-man would be the ultimate expression of personalizing a god.

btw good post. big grin

Mairuzu
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It's just a strange form of personification.

Ah I see where you're coming from. I was just going offtopic, really.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Mairuzu
Ah I see where you're coming from. I was just going offtopic, really.

So, what is your real opinion?

Mairuzu
Well I would say its easiest to relate to, seeing how we know nothing greater than our mind.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Mairuzu
Well I would say its easiest to relate to, seeing how we know nothing greater than our mind.

Post again when your stoned. stick out tongue

Digi
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Marketing!

Jesus is a case of taking personification to an extreme. God-man would be the ultimate expression of personalizing a god.

btw good post. big grin

Thanks.

Though I'd mention that a lot of the "marketing" is done unconsciously by the people spreading religion. These ideas become such a part of the religion that we no longer think of it unless prodded specifically on the topic. But religions are powerful memes in general. Eternal life, threat of damnation, prescribed purpose, programmed for faith without evidence (or sometimes despite evidence), and usually with not so subtle suggestions to spread the message (or Word of God), and that all of these things are good to believe in. Wrap all of them together and, once it's rooted in a person's mind, it's almost impossible to fully extricate because of how fulfilling and encompassing it can seem.

The best ideas win, and by "best" I don't mean "most right" but those that can get into a person's thoughts, stay there, and ideally promote the spreading of that same thought. Powerful memes can also be right, of course, I just had to qualify my usage of "best."

Because really, two (hypothetical) guys yelling from the rocks centuries ago, one about God with a beard who promises eternal life and has 10 primary rules for you to follow....and the other talking about an unknowable but all-powerful abstract embodiment of love and totality...one was clearly going to win. And did. The same holds true today, though to a lesser extent. People still want to pray to Jesus and believe in a God-made-flesh savior. And all large religions have their prophets and historical figures. We need the human connection.

Also, meme theory is fascinating, and this post was more rambling than my last. I liked my first one better.

embarrasment

ADarksideJedi
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why do religions make God into a person. If there was an all powerful, all knowing god, then it would seem that this god should be anything but human. It seems to me that the problem with the discussion of a god is hopelessly doomed because of Personification.

Any thoughts?

If you read the bible God has always been a man he was born into this world I dont thnk it would make any sence if he was not one.

TacDavey
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If there was an all powerful, all knowing god, then it would seem that this god should be anything but human.

What do you mean?

Shakyamunison

lil bitchiness

Omega Vision
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I believe a similar thing, just not exactly as you described.

Jesus was a soul (previously he was known to the world as Buddha) who either merged, or was offered a merge with 'God'/Nirvana/oneness, whatever you want to call it. Just like his previous incarnation, Buddha he chose to come back to aid others into higher state of being.
I don't know if Jesus ever claimed to be a God (in a sense, we're all part of him), but I appreciate his wish to remove religion altogether. Ironically, his followers made a brand new one around him.

Buddha didn't want to be worshipped either, but hey, humans are humans and here it applies exactly what you wrote above. Exactly that. So I agree.

I believe Jesus reincarnated by choice - perhaps his sacrifice was supposed to demonstrate what we all must do - forgive, so that we may break the cycle of rebirth.

Bible speaks of the fact that Jesus taught that John the Baptist was the reincarnation of prophet Elijah.
In fact, I am more than convinced that anything that Jesus taught which was not in line with Judaism or monotheism or was difficult to explain to the uneducated masses or any such thing at the time was eventually scrapped out of the New Testament.

I also believe Jesus didn't write anything by his own hand, nor told anyone to document his words, for a very good reason. He underestimated humans need to worship...or perhaps he didn't.
There's a theory that's held by some Christian historians that during the twenty year gap in Jesus's life that the Bible leaves out Jesus visited India and learned from the Buddhists and Hindus.

dadudemon
There's a couple of ways to answer the OP.

1. One of the greatest lies ever spread is that God is not reachable, understandable, impersonal, etc. By doing this, it allows people to rationalize why they don't live the best lives they can while also depriving them of a personal relationship with their Creator.

2. This one is similar to the first but attributes everything to Satan/Lucifer: Satan has spread the lie, disguised in intelligent thought, that God is not wholly understandable/personal and does not look like "us". It is seen as a form of blasphemy and works quite well to detract and distract from a personal relationship with God.

3. God was never humanoid in form and the various attributes given were only metaphors used by genuine prophets who had no way to relate it to the humans who were not privileged with an intimate knowledge of God. Things such as, "in our image" do not mean the humanoid form, but the god-like mind of creation. It is this "mind" of God that makes us in His/Her/It's image. #'s 1 and 2 are irrelevant to this point because it can have it's cake and eat it, too.

4. God wants us to think that because God knows that the best way we can make progress towards Nirvana/Heaven/Transcendence is through personalizing the concept of God in a way that works for most. It is all part of the "plan". Only the humans think there is a reason to obfuscate this plan with other ideas.

5. There is no Creator God that has an interest in humans. We made it all up as a developing sentient species to cope with the harsh realities of mind and existence. (This is the deist or atheist interpretation).



Here's my personal take on all those perspectives: I believe that some of all 5 are true. Humans added their interpretations, God added some to help us, Lucifer (if he exists or is just a metaphor for the evil humans do...making 1 and 2 indistinguishable) added, but too much credit is given to all 4 points making #5 also true.


Originally posted by Omega Vision
There's a theory that's held by some Christian historians that during the twenty year gap in Jesus's life that the Bible leaves out Jesus visited India and learned from the Buddhists and Hindus.

I am one of those that thinks this is fully plausible. One of the things I think that made Jesus of Nazareth's message so different from all the other "messiah" preachers was his message of love, forgiveness, and turning the other cheek. Something that is eerily similar to Buddha's teachings. Let's not forget the "forsake your possessions" thing...either.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Omega Vision
There's a theory that's held by some Christian historians that during the twenty year gap in Jesus's life that the Bible leaves out Jesus visited India and learned from the Buddhists and Hindus.

I know of that theory, there are also claims he was buried there.

Other than similarities in doctrine, the theory isn't that strong. I think it requires a lot more investigation. I'd love to know for sure. If he did learn, he learned from the Buddhists and was a Buddhist monk, in my opinion (but maybe my opinion is bias here).

While I was in China, one of the monks said to us:
''If you follow the deeds of Jesus, you're already following Buddha. If you're following the deeds of Buddha, you're already following Jesus.''

I am torn between - Jesus attained enlightenment when he was here OR he attained enlightenment before and willingly came back to aid others.
I'm more inclined to believe the latter, although...both are possible.

dadudemon
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I know of that theory, there are also claims he was buried there.

Other than similarities in doctrine, the theory isn't that strong. I think it requires a lot more investigation. I'd love to know for sure. If he did learn, he learned from the Buddhists and was a Buddhist monk, in my opinion (but maybe my opinion is bias here).

While I was in China, one of the monks said to us:
''If you follow the deeds of Jesus, you're already following Buddha. If you're following the deeds of Buddha, you're already following Jesus.''

I am torn between - Jesus attained enlightenment when he was here OR he attained enlightenment before and willingly came back to aid others.
I'm more inclined to believe the latter, although...both are possible.

lol, for me, that's what I think all positive religions are about, anyway: attaining enlightenment. For me, it is just different flavors of the same message.

Mindship
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
While I was in China, one of the monks said to us:
''If you follow the deeds of Jesus, you're already following Buddha. If you're following the deeds of Buddha, you're already following Jesus.''
It's the same Whole gazing out through one pair of eyes or the other.

Digi
Originally posted by dadudemon
lol, for me, that's what I think all positive religions are about, anyway: attaining enlightenment. For me, it is just different flavors of the same message.

While this is emotionally satisfying for many, it does tend to gloss over the myriad difference in the religions/practices, and the many ways in which they aren't compatible.

Frankly, most of the myths and religions ever can be boiled down to a few common tenets if we're willing to overlook the other stuff. I think it probably speaks to commonalities in the way humans relate to ideas like death and the divine than it does to tangible links between religions.

lil bitchiness
Indeed, that's why syncretism is ever so popular. I hope it continues to be.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Indeed, that's why syncretism is ever so popular. I hope it continues to be.

This has always been going on; both combining and diverging.

Stoic
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
If you read the bible God has always been a man he was born into this world I dont thnk it would make any sence if he was not one.


God was not a man in the beginning, but a spirit. Jesus is, was and always will be an office that God took in order to accomplish several things according to the Bible. One thing is certain. While God knew what being human was, he did not know what being human felt like. Loneliness, hunger, striving to make a statement in life... etc.. These are all things that are born of the flesh.

I must warn everyone here of the harsh implications of blasphemy. This, or more to the point, the OP of this thread borders on the blasphemous, and it is the one unpardonable sin. If, and I mean this with all sincerity. If God truly exists, and Jesus was the Word, and always will be the Word of God who was with God from the beginning, and is God, to choose your words carefully.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Stoic
...While God knew what being human was, he did not know what being human felt like...

How can an all knowing, omnipotent god not know something?

Stoic
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How can an all knowing, omnipotent god not know something?


God is a spirit. Carefully re-read what I posted, because my explanation is there.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
There's a theory that's held by some Christian historians that during the twenty year gap in Jesus's life that the Bible leaves out Jesus visited India and learned from the Buddhists and Hindus.

This is confirmed in the Bible when Jesus sent his Apostles to Asia, and it was said that they were hard pressed by the Asians system of honor, or code of honor. This is likely where the parable that says "Good works are like filthy rags before God". That we are not justified by our works, but by faith.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Stoic
God is a spirit. Carefully re-read what I posted, because my explanation is there...

I reread your post and did not see an answer to my question.

How can an all knowing god not know something?

Stoic
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I reread your post and did not see an answer to my question.

How can an all knowing god not know something?

God is a spirit, not flesh. The Spirit of God having a lack of flesh did not know what it felt like to feel hungry or other things that are felt in the flesh, because the Spirit of God is not flesh, therefore the only way to know what it truly felt like to be of the flesh, was to become flesh, and dwell among us.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Stoic
God is a spirit, not flesh. The Spirit of God having a lack of flesh did not know what it felt like to feel hungry or other things that are felt in the flesh, because the Spirit of God is not flesh, therefore the only way to know what it truly felt like to be of the flesh, was to become flesh, and dwell among us.

Then, before Jesus, god was not all knowing.

Stoic
There was no before Jesus. It clearly states in the Bible, that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, but we knew him not. Did you know that the Bible describes God as being lawful and benevolent? That God is fair all the way down the line? Which is why the Bible says that God gave all of mankind free will.

Did you know that a spirit (Angel, Demon, or God itself) is not allowed to live within a human, unless that human opens doorways or becomes equally yolked or unequally yolked to that Spirit. There is a legalism within the spiritual realm. This is why Baptism exists. It states in the Bible that for a person to be saved that they must submit to a certain criteria. This is what is meant as bringing forth the fruits of repentance. The Bible states, that in order for a person to find salvation, that they must accept Christ into their hearts and lives as their personal savior, then they must repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus, and only at that point would the Holy Ghost be able to dwell within them. For by no other name can a person be saved.

However there are other spirits out there, and a person by free will can open doorways into their lives, which is also a way for that spirit to also dwell within a person. This could be a Demon, or the Angel Moronai. As long as the person follows the criteria that this spirit asks of them, they can be filled with that spirit. God as I said is stated in the Bible as being a fair and just God.

Why did I write all of that? Because I wanted to break it down to you why God up until Christ did not know what it felt like to feel hunger, strife, sin, or any of the other things that we as people feel in the flesh. God does not know what it feels like to sin, but this does not mean that the Spirit of God does not know the consequences of sin.

If you seeking an answer for a particular question that pertains to the Bible, you can always read it.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Stoic
There was no before Jesus. It clearly states in the Bible, that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, but we knew him not. Did you know that the Bible describes God as being lawful and benevolent? That God is fair all the way down the line? Which is why the Bible says that God gave all of mankind free will.

That is an interpretation. The bible does not say the name Jesus, in the OT.

Originally posted by Stoic
Did you know that a spirit (Angel, Demon, or God itself) is not allowed to live within a human, unless that human opens doorways or becomes equally yolked or unequally yolked to that Spirit. There is a legalism within the spiritual realm. This is why Baptism exists. It states in the Bible that for a person to be saved that they must submit to a certain criteria. This is what is meant as bringing forth the fruits of repentance. The Bible states, that in order for a person to find salvation, that they must accept Christ into their hearts and lives as their personal savior, then they must repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus, and only at that point would the Holy Ghost be able to dwell within them. For by no other name can a person be saved.

I do not believe in spirits. They are a product of human imagination. People would see someone get sick, then other people would get sick. They didn't know about infection, but they could tell that something was there. They then concluded there must be a spirit that is making everyone sick.

Originally posted by Stoic
However there are other spirits out there, and a person by free will can open doorways into their lives, which is also a way for that spirit to also dwell within a person. This could be a Demon, or the Angel Moronai. As long as the person follows the criteria that this spirit asks of them, they can be filled with that spirit. God as I said is stated in the Bible as being a fair and just God.

Like I said, the belief in spirits is just a product of the lack of information.

Originally posted by Stoic
Why did I write all of that? Because I wanted to break it down to you why God up until Christ did not know what it felt like to feel hunger, strife, sin, or any of the other things that we as people feel in the flesh. God does not know what it feels like to sin, but this does not mean that the Spirit of God does not know the consequences of sin.

So, we agree that before Jesus was born and walked on the Earth, his father, the all knowing god, did not know what it was like to be human in the flesh. That means god is not all knowing.

Originally posted by Stoic
If you seeking an answer for a particular question that pertains to the Bible, you can always read it.

I did that long ago. I have no questions.

This tread has nothing to do with the bible, but is about the Personification of gods. We could be talking about the Christian god or Zeus. It all has to do with the Personification, and not the religion.

Stoic
Jesus spoke to the Apostles one day, and did not leave them until he finished this sentence.

Jesus said. "I will pray to the Father, and he will send a comforter in my name". So let's break this down. This would be like any one of us sitting with a friend, and saying "hey Jeff, hows it going tonight? i know that we have to travel 350 miles so what I'm going to do, is ask my dad for his car to take us that distance. So then one of us blinks for a second or two, and turns back to Jeff, and says, hey Jeff, guess what, my pops will lend us the car to take us the full distance of 350 miles.

/blink blink.

The Comforter that Jesus was speaking of is the Holy Ghost, which is the Spirit of God, that was sent in the name of Jesus. Who was Jesus again? Hmmm. Does this mean that the Holy Ghost is named Jesus? it seems pretty clear to me. Yes the Spirit of God, according to the Bible, is named Jesus.

The Catholics step outside of this legalism, and are not true Christians because they did not follow the proper steps to reach salvation according to the very same bible that they read, and preach in sermons. What? I said What???

The one thing that many Catholics do wrong, is their ways of conducting the Baptism. They baptize people in the titles of God, but not in the name of God. They say and I quote. " I now baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". But very rarely do they baptize in the name of Jesus.

In the time of John the Baptist, many people professing to have been baptized were urged to be baptized again, because they weren't baptized properly. Legalism, is very big in the spiritual realm.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Stoic
Jesus spoke to the Apostles one day, and did not leave them until he finished this sentence.

Jesus said. "I will pray to the Father, and he will send a comforter in my name". So let's break this down. This would be like any one of of sitting with a friend, and saying "hey Jeff, hows it going tonight? i know that we have to travel 350 miles so what I'm going to do, is ask my dad for his car to take us that distance. So then one of us blinks for a second or two, and turns back to Jeff, and says, hey Jeff, guess what, my pops will lend us the car to take us the full distance of 350 miles.

/blink blink.

The Comforter that Jesus was speaking of is the Holy Ghost, which is the Spirit of God, that was sent in the name of Jesus. Who was Jesus again? Hmmm. Does this mean that the Holy Ghost is named Jesus? it seems pretty clear to me. Yes the Spirit of God, according to the Bible, is named Jesus.

The Catholics step outside of this legalism, and are not true Christians because they did not follow the proper steps to reach salvation according to the very same bible that they read, and preach in sermons. What? I said What???

The one thing that many Catholics do wrong, is their ways of conducting the Baptism. They baptize people in the titles of God, but not in the name of God. They say and I quote. " I now baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". But very rarely do they baptize in the name of Jesus.

In the time of John the Baptist, many people professing to have been baptized were urged to be baptized again, because they weren't baptized properly. Legalism, is very big in the spiritual realm.

What does this have to do with topic of Personification?

Stoic
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What does this have to do with topic of Personification?


Jesus is the personification of God. The true God of the Christians. My God.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Stoic
Jesus is the personification of God. The true God of the Christians. My God.

Why would an omnipotent god be in the form of a human?

Stoic
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why would an omnipotent god be in the form of a human?


If you read the Bible you would know the answer to this. It's just like the question of why would the King of Kings be destitute, instead of ruling the world with an iron fist.

Bat Dude
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why would an omnipotent god be in the form of a human?

To atone for our sins.

It says in the Bible:

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." (Hebrews 9:22)

Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins. That's why the Hebrews used to sacrifice animals to God. That's also why many sins in the Bible resulted in the death penalty (such as witchcraft, adultery, sodomy, etc.)

Jesus died on the cross and His blood was shed to atone for our sins. That was His mission here on earth: to atone for our sins... ALL of them. FOREVER. All it takes is faith.

Stoic
Originally posted by Bat Dude
To atone for our sins.

It says in the Bible:

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." (Hebrews 9:22)

Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins. That's why the Hebrews used to sacrifice animals to God. That's also why many sins in the Bible resulted in the death penalty (such as witchcraft, adultery, sodomy, etc.)

Jesus died on the cross and His blood was shed to atone for our sins. That was His mission here on earth: to atone for our sins... ALL of them. FOREVER. All it takes is faith.


thumb up

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bat Dude
To atone for our sins.

It says in the Bible:

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." (Hebrews 9:22)

Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins. That's why the Hebrews used to sacrifice animals to God. That's also why many sins in the Bible resulted in the death penalty (such as witchcraft, adultery, sodomy, etc.)

Jesus died on the cross and His blood was shed to atone for our sins. That was His mission here on earth: to atone for our sins... ALL of them. FOREVER. All it takes is faith.

Again, this is not about your religion. This is about the personification of a god, rather it be a Christian god or an Greek god.

Why would this god need to jump through such hoops.?

Did god create a Jesus for every animal?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Stoic
thumb up

I get the feeling you are trying to derail this thread. I will not let you. So, keep your thumbs to yourself and lets talk about the personification of gods.

If you are not comfortable about talking about the Christian god then lets talk about so other god.

Stoic
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I get the feeling you are trying to derail this thread. I will not let you. So, keep your thumbs to yourself and lets talk about the personification of gods.

If you are not comfortable about talking about the Christian god then lets talk about so other god.


As far as I am concerned, there is only one true God, only one almighty, only one all powerful, and according to my beliefs that God is named Jesus. The Personification of God. There can be but One smile. If you or someone else feels or thinks that there is another God, who am i to judge? That is what you, or they believe. Bat-Dude nailed it on the head. I would have said Amen brother, but I do not know who Bat-Dude is. Which is why he got the big thumbs up from me.

Bat Dude
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Again, this is not about your religion. This is about the personification of a god, rather it be a Christian god or an Greek god.

Why would this god need to jump through such hoops.?

Did god create a Jesus for every animal?

First, God didn't "create" Jesus. In the Bible, it states that Jesus was with God and WAS God.

Human beings are the only ones that need a Saviour because we are the only ones conscious of what we do. A dog can't sin, but a man can.

And I'll leave it at that.

Stoic
Originally posted by Bat Dude
First, God didn't "create" Jesus. In the Bible, it states that Jesus was with God and WAS God.

Human beings are the only ones that need a Saviour because we are the only ones conscious of what we do. A dog can't sin, but a man can.

And I'll leave it at that.


Again you nailed it.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bat Dude
First, God didn't "create" Jesus. In the Bible, it states that Jesus was with God and WAS God.

Human beings are the only ones that need a Saviour because we are the only ones conscious of what we do. A dog can't sin, but a man can.

And I'll leave it at that.

laughing That is too silly. Humans are animals.

However, you are on to something. I think that personification happens because we are egotistical. We think humans are what the universe was created for. Therefore, it only makes sense that our gods would also be human.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Stoic
As far as I am concerned, there is only one true God, only one almighty, only one all powerful, and according to my beliefs that God is named Jesus. The Personification of God. There can be but One smile. If you or someone else feels or thinks that there is another God, who am i to judge? That is what you, or they believe. Bat-Dude nailed it on the head. I would have said Amen brother, but I do not know who Bat-Dude is. Which is why he got the big thumbs up from me.

That is not the topic. Perhaps you should post somewhere else. You could start your own thread, and I would be happy to talk to you about your topic in your thread. However, I'm sure you would not like me derailing your thread.

Stoic
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
laughing That is too silly. Humans are animals.

However, you are on to something. I think that personification happens because we are egotistical. We think humans are what the universe was created for. Therefore, it only makes sense that our gods would also be human.


Hehehahaha. And yet animals are incapable of sin, it is not animals that purposely ruin the environment, or kill for money. It is not animals that go through life striving for perfection, because as far as they are concerned, everything is perfect. Animals don't quite reflect on things the way humans do. Looks like I was not the one to derail this thread, as I was on point concerning personification. You on the other hand threw up a very large strawman. Sin is something that only man is capable of doing which was what Bat-Dude was saying within the context of his post.


Oh yeah I have nothing more to say on the matter.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Stoic
Hehehahaha. And yet animals are incapable of sin, it is not animals that purposely ruin the environment, or kill for money. It is not animals that go through life striving for perfection, because as far as they are concerned, everything is perfect. Animals don't quite reflect on things the way humans do. Looks like I was not the one to derail this thread, as I was on point concerning personification. You on the other hand threw up a very large strawman. Sin is something that only man is capable of doing which was what Bat-Dude was saying within the context of his post.

There is no such thing as sin. All animals, including humans, manifest the ten worlds.

Now back on topic.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Stoic
Sin is something that only man is capable of doing which was what Bat-Dude was saying within the context of his post.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There is no such thing as sin. All animals, including humans, manifest the ten worlds.

Somehow I think I know exactly how each of you sees the other.

Stoic
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Somehow I think I know exactly how each of you sees the other.


Actually I have no hard feelings. Our beliefs differ that's all. It's really no big thing to me. I was simply giving my view of what I thought was the personification of God. We all have our own opinions, which is what helps the world go round.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Somehow I think I know exactly how each of you sees the other.

laughing out loud
























I don't think so. stick out tongue

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Bat Dude
To atone for our sins.

It says in the Bible:

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." (Hebrews 9:22)

Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins. That's why the Hebrews used to sacrifice animals to God. That's also why many sins in the Bible resulted in the death penalty (such as witchcraft, adultery, sodomy, etc.)

Jesus died on the cross and His blood was shed to atone for our sins. That was His mission here on earth: to atone for our sins... ALL of them. FOREVER. All it takes is faith.

If that's the case, then I have a question, as I'm not well versed in Christian specifics -

Adultery - Why is blood necessary to atone for that sin? Why is killing of the two people who committed adultery considered purification from them making love?

If one dies and is cast into Hell fire for committing a sin of adultery or witchcraft, how can this be beneficial to the development and growth of that person's soul?

How long does one need to suffer in Hell for adultery before it becomes totally redundant and useless torture?

Omega Vision
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
If that's the case, then I have a question, as I'm not well versed in Christian specifics -

Adultery - Why is blood necessary to atone for that sin? Why is killing of the two people who committed adultery considered purification from them making love?

If one dies and is cast into Hell fire for committing a sin of adultery or witchcraft, how can this be beneficial to the development and growth of that person's soul?

How long does one need to suffer in Hell for adultery before it becomes totally redundant and useless torture?
You have to understand that Bat Dude's God is good because He's good. It's a beautiful circle.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
If that's the case, then I have a question, as I'm not well versed in Christian specifics -

Adultery - Why is blood necessary to atone for that sin? Why is killing of the two people who committed adultery considered purification from them making love?

If one dies and is cast into Hell fire for committing a sin of adultery or witchcraft, how can this be beneficial to the development and growth of that person's soul?

How long does one need to suffer in Hell for adultery before it becomes totally redundant and useless torture?

Adultery: This is a sin, because it brings into question man's power over woman and lineage. The rest is just fear tactics to keep people in line. wink

Bat Dude
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
If that's the case, then I have a question, as I'm not well versed in Christian specifics -

Adultery - Why is blood necessary to atone for that sin? Why is killing of the two people who committed adultery considered purification from them making love?

If one dies and is cast into Hell fire for committing a sin of adultery or witchcraft, how can this be beneficial to the development and growth of that person's soul?

How long does one need to suffer in Hell for adultery before it becomes totally redundant and useless torture?

I'll answer your questions. I don't want you to be confused about what I'm trying to say. That usually makes both parties angry.

Blood is necessary to atone for adultery because it is a sin. When a woman cheats on her husband, or a husband cheats on his wife, they are breaking their spouse's trust and love. You're being extremely selfish and prideful. That is not the way God intended for it to be.

How often is adultery "making love"? From what I've seen in my relatively short life is that adultery is always committed out of lust. Even in the most extreme circumstances.

We all sin. I sin, you sin, our bosses sin, the minister down the street sins, etc. That's why we need a Saviour.

However, when someone does continual sin over and over and never repents and asks God's forgiveness through Jesus Christ, they are dead men walking. That's because they are one breath away from hell. An unrepentant sinner refuses to acknowledge God (or, in the sense of a Luciferian, acknowledges His existence, but hates Him)

Witchcraft itself is an abomination. When one partakes in witchcraft, they are allowing demons into their lives. That's where the saying "I have inner demons to battle," when dealing with things like drugs comes from.

And the more demons you allow into your life, the harder and harder it is to come to repentance. It's like the Mafia. The longer you stay in, the harder it is to get out. Meditation and mind altering drugs aren't what most would call "traditional" witchcraft practices, but they are witchcraft just the same. When you're in an altered state of consciousness, you're open to demonic infestation and sometimes even possession. I call it the Adopt-a-Demon program.

Sorry if that was a little unclear. I'm actually in a hurry to get to work. If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me, so that I don't end up hijacking this thread.



"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 55:8)

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bat Dude
..."For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 55:8)

That is arrogance.

Bat Dude
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is arrogance.

No, that's explaining the difference between us and God.

We can't understand a lot of what God does or why God does it.

Do you understand how God created the planets, animals and why He chose to design them the way He did? Do you comprehend how God created all the gases like carbon, hydrogen, etc?

I certainly don't.

It's not arrogance, it's fact.

Arrogance = pride = sin

God doesn't sin.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bat Dude
No, that's explaining the difference between us and God.

We can't understand a lot of what God does or why God does it.

Do you understand how God created the planets, animals and why He chose to design them the way He did? Do you comprehend how God created all the gases like carbon, hydrogen, etc?

I certainly don't.

It's not arrogance, it's fact.

Arrogance = pride = sin

God doesn't sin.

It is simple and easy to answer your question. God did not create anything. We humans created gods.

Bat Dude
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It is simple and easy to answer your question. God did not create anything. We humans created gods.

That's blasphemous...

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bat Dude
That's blasphemous...

How?

That would be like me telling you that Santa Clause will not give you any gifts.

It is only blasphemous for you, because it is how you believe.

Bat Dude
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How?

That would be like me telling you that Santa Clause will not give you any gifts.

It is only blasphemous for you, because it is how you believe.

If you don't know how that is blasphemous, I don't know what to tell you...

I don't want to hijack your thread anymore, so please, PM me if you want to discuss this any further.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bat Dude
If you don't know how that is blasphemous, I don't know what to tell you...

I don't want to hijack your thread anymore, so please, PM me if you want to discuss this any further.

I see no reason to PM you. This is not a burning issue for me. Sorry about the pun. big grin

I understand one thing very clearly: No one understands God; no book can be written that understands God. God cannot be understood by humans, ever. That means anything we can or have said about God is flawed, including what I just said. I made a thread about this a long time ago.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Bat Dude



"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 55:8)
"A circle is a circle." (Omega Vision 2:03)

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Omega Vision
"A circle is a circle." (Omega Vision 2:03)

I actually had a Christian once tell me that logic is the work of the devil.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I actually had a Christian once tell me that logic is the work of the devil.
Some Christians demonize things they're bad at.

Like Heavy Metal music, dancing, and sex.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Some Christians demonize things they're bad at.

Like Heavy Metal music, dancing, and sex.


laughing out loud The first two maybe, but unfortunately the last one they are very good at. wink

The thing that never made sense to me was Heavy Metal Christian music. Like what's the point?

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
laughing out loud The first two maybe, but unfortunately the last one they are very good at. wink

The thing that never made sense to me was Heavy Metal Christian music. Like what's the point?
What do you mean? There's no contradiction between playing Heavy Metal and being Christian unless you think there's something intrinsically evil about fast tempo drumming and distorted guitar riffs.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Omega Vision
What do you mean? There's no contradiction between playing Heavy Metal and being Christian unless you think there's something intrinsically evil about fast tempo drumming and distorted guitar riffs.

Have you ever heard Heavy Metal Christian music? Just my opinion: Heavy Metal is evil, but a dark theme works better, then praise the lord.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Have you ever heard Heavy Metal Christian music? Just my opinion: Heavy Metal is evil, but a dark theme works better, then praise the lord.
When you say heavy metal...do you mean Death Metal?

There's more than just Death, Thrash, and Glam.

This is an example of a good heavy metal song with Christian themes: UwCnOCYhHuI

(Based on Goethe's Faust)

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Omega Vision
When you say heavy metal...do you mean Death Metal?

There's more than just Death, Thrash, and Glam.

This is an example of a good heavy metal song with Christian themes:

(Based on Goethe's Faust)

wtf?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Bat Dude
I'll answer your questions. I don't want you to be confused about what I'm trying to say. That usually makes both parties angry.

Blood is necessary to atone for adultery because it is a sin. When a woman cheats on her husband, or a husband cheats on his wife, they are breaking their spouse's trust and love. You're being extremely selfish and prideful. That is not the way God intended for it to be.

How often is adultery "making love"? From what I've seen in my relatively short life is that adultery is always committed out of lust. Even in the most extreme circumstances.

We all sin. I sin, you sin, our bosses sin, the minister down the street sins, etc. That's why we need a Saviour.

However, when someone does continual sin over and over and never repents and asks God's forgiveness through Jesus Christ, they are dead men walking. That's because they are one breath away from hell. An unrepentant sinner refuses to acknowledge God (or, in the sense of a Luciferian, acknowledges His existence, but hates Him)

Witchcraft itself is an abomination. When one partakes in witchcraft, they are allowing demons into their lives. That's where the saying "I have inner demons to battle," when dealing with things like drugs comes from.

And the more demons you allow into your life, the harder and harder it is to come to repentance. It's like the Mafia. The longer you stay in, the harder it is to get out. Meditation and mind altering drugs aren't what most would call "traditional" witchcraft practices, but they are witchcraft just the same. When you're in an altered state of consciousness, you're open to demonic infestation and sometimes even possession. I call it the Adopt-a-Demon program.

Sorry if that was a little unclear. I'm actually in a hurry to get to work. If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me, so that I don't end up hijacking this thread.



"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 55:8)


Why is being selfish and prideful (how is it pride to lust or love another?) worse than murder?
Shouldn't God be the one that decides who lives and who dies?

Following from that, spilling the blood of adulterous woman or a man is in fact more prideful than adultery, for people are taking it upon themselves to pass a judgement in God's name.

In fact, doing ANYTHING that is infringing on anyone's rights, hurting anyone or worse, causing a death of another, in God's name is prideful and should be considered a sin.


Let me clarify - I like Jesus and I like what he preached. I believe he was enlightened and wise and had seen the world for what it really is and I do believe his mission was to help people break the cycle of reincarnation. His teachings all point to that as I believe he said ''I call on the wicked and not righteous''.
Is he now a part of 'God' or oneness? Yes, I believe he is.

What I have great problem with, however, is absolutism of religious doctrine.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Why is being selfish and prideful (how is it pride to lust or love another?) worse than murder?
Shouldn't God be the one that decides who lives and who dies?

Following from that, spilling the blood of adulterous woman or a man is in fact more prideful than adultery, for people are taking it upon themselves to pass a judgement in God's name.

In fact, doing ANYTHING that is infringing on anyone's rights, hurting anyone or worse, causing a death of another, in God's name is prideful and should be considered a sin.


Let me clarify - I like Jesus and I like what he preached. I believe he was enlightened and wise and had seen the world for what it really is and I do believe his mission was to help people break the cycle of reincarnation. His teachings all point to that as I believe he said ''I call on the wicked and not righteous''.
Is he now a part of 'God' or oneness? Yes, I believe he is.

What I have great problem with, however, is absolutism of religious doctrine.

I have a feeling you also have a problem with teachings of Paul. So do I.

Bat Dude
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Why is being selfish and prideful (how is it pride to lust or love another?) worse than murder?
Shouldn't God be the one that decides who lives and who dies?

Following from that, spilling the blood of adulterous woman or a man is in fact more prideful than adultery, for people are taking it upon themselves to pass a judgement in God's name.

In fact, doing ANYTHING that is infringing on anyone's rights, hurting anyone or worse, causing a death of another, in God's name is prideful and should be considered a sin.


Let me clarify - I like Jesus and I like what he preached. I believe he was enlightened and wise and had seen the world for what it really is and I do believe his mission was to help people break the cycle of reincarnation. His teachings all point to that as I believe he said ''I call on the wicked and not righteous''.
Is he now a part of 'God' or oneness? Yes, I believe he is.

What I have great problem with, however, is absolutism of religious doctrine.

Sin is sin is sin. Every sin has the same weight in God's eyes. You have to understand that God is perfect in all His ways. He is eternal and pure. Any sin in the sight of God is abhorrent. Whether that's pride, lust, greed, or murder.

God does decide who lives and dies.

God gave the law of the Old Testament to Moses. That was the old covenant. In the old covenant, God commanded that adulterers, fornicators, witches, astrologers, murderers, etc. be killed, so that their sin didn't permeate through the population, thus opening the people to demonic influences. ("A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."wink

Obviously, we aren't under the old covenant anymore, so we're not commanded to do that anymore. Anyone who goes out and kills abortion doctors is a hypocrite. Jesus is the new, better covenant.

What I have a great problem with is the New Age idea that Jesus was some Eastern mystic. That's no offense to you, it's just what I have a big problem with.

Omega Vision
For a conspiracy theorist, Bat Dude is quick to accept Christian dogma as indisputable fact.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bat Dude
Sin is sin is sin. Every sin has the same weight in God's eyes. You have to understand that God is perfect in all His ways. He is eternal and pure. Any sin in the sight of God is abhorrent. Whether that's pride, lust, greed, or murder.

God does decide who lives and dies.

God gave the law of the Old Testament to Moses. That was the old covenant. In the old covenant, God commanded that adulterers, fornicators, witches, astrologers, murderers, etc. be killed, so that their sin didn't permeate through the population, thus opening the people to demonic influences. ("A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."wink

Obviously, we aren't under the old covenant anymore, so we're not commanded to do that anymore. Anyone who goes out and kills abortion doctors is a hypocrite. Jesus is the new, better covenant.

What I have a great problem with is the New Age idea that Jesus was some Eastern mystic. That's no offense to you, it's just what I have a big problem with.

A god that tells people to kill is more like the fictitious demons you are talking about.

Bat Dude
Originally posted by Omega Vision
For a conspiracy theorist, Bat Dude is quick to accept Christian dogma as indisputable fact.

It's not hard to tell that Christianity is truth.

-There's a HUGE push for New Age, whether people realize it or not
-New Age doctrine and pantheism is in everything we watch, read, and hear
-New Age hates Christianity and focuses tons of effort on refuting it

If the emerging world religion (New Age) is so focused on converting Christians, that's got to tell you that real Christianity has to be truth.

If Christianity were just some religion like Buddhism or Hinduism, why would they be pushing so hard and putting so much effort in to convert Christians and nobody else?

Why wouldn't they care about converting Buddhists? Or Hindus? Or Muslims? Or even Jews?

Because Satan's already got them in the palm of his hand.

The Bible itself predicts a world religion and world government under the Antichrist. You hardly hear sermons on it anymore, because everyone just wants their ears tickled and to hear the "prosperity Gospel" like Joel Osteen "preaches". The Bible predicted that many would fall away from the faith and become apostate, too.



No, God was actually being merciful if you think about it.

It doesn't matter anymore, though, because Jesus is the new and better covenant. We aren't bound by the Law anymore.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Bat Dude
It's not hard to tell that Christianity is truth.

How's that?

Bat Dude
Did you read what I said, or just post?

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Bat Dude
Did you read what I said, or just post?
I did read, but nothing in there demonstrates that Christianity is the truth.

Even if there is a global campaign against Christians, that could mean A LOT of things beyond some sinister conspiracy to cover up the truth.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bat Dude
It's not hard to tell that Christianity is truth.

-There's a HUGE push for New Age, whether people realize it or not
-New Age doctrine and pantheism is in everything we watch, read, and hear
-New Age hates Christianity and focuses tons of effort on refuting it

If the emerging world religion (New Age) is so focused on converting Christians, that's got to tell you that real Christianity has to be truth.

If Christianity were just some religion like Buddhism or Hinduism, why would they be pushing so hard and putting so much effort in to convert Christians and nobody else?

Why wouldn't they care about converting Buddhists? Or Hindus? Or Muslims? Or even Jews?

Because Satan's already got them in the palm of his hand.

The Bible itself predicts a world religion and world government under the Antichrist. You hardly hear sermons on it anymore, because everyone just wants their ears tickled and to hear the "prosperity Gospel" like Joel Osteen "preaches". The Bible predicted that many would fall away from the faith and become apostate, too.



No, God was actually being merciful if you think about it.

It doesn't matter anymore, though, because Jesus is the new and better covenant. We aren't bound by the Law anymore.

Don't you think that if a demon were to tell you to kill someone, and you were to question him, he would say "I am being merciful"?

Omega Vision
The real question that needs to be asked, even if God were real and perfect and the creator of all things, does that really make him worthy of being worshiped?

I think the whole principle of worship is faulty.

Bat Dude
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Don't you think that if a demon were to tell you to kill someone, and you were to question him, he would say "I was being merciful"?

Demons want to kill you. They despise us because we are created in God's image and they despise God.

God doesn't want to kill anyone. The Bible says, "...As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live..." (Ezekiel 33:11)

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bat Dude
Demons want to kill you. They despise us because we are created in God's image and they despise God.

God doesn't want to kill anyone. The Bible says, "...As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live..." (Ezekiel 33:11)

Demons are also deceivers. Therefore, my question is still valid.

Bat Dude
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Demons are also deceivers. Therefore, my question is still valid.

But God is not the author of confusion. (1 Corinthians 14:33)

If you have any sort of "supernatural experience" where an entity of some sort is communicating with you and telling you to do something, you check to see if what they are saying lines up with the Word of God.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bat Dude
But God is not the author of confusion. (1 Corinthians 14:33)

If you have any sort of "supernatural experience" where an entity of some sort is communicating with you and telling you to do something, you check to see if what they are saying lines up with the Word of God.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)

Like the people in the OT who were told by god to kill all the people in this city or that city?

Bat Dude
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Like the people in the OT who were told by god to kill all the people in this city or that city?

I think if God appeared to someone, it would be infinitely more glorious than any demon counterfeit. And of course, God would not contradict His own Word.

And demons had appeared to people before claiming to be God. They appeared to the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, etc. That's where the mythology comes from.

The King James Bible outlines anything you need to know about Christianity and how God and His angels generally appeared to humans.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bat Dude
I think if God appeared to someone, it would be infinitely more glorious than any demon counterfeit. And of course, God would not contradict His own Word.

And demons had appeared to people before claiming to be God. They appeared to the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, etc. That's where the mythology comes from.

The King James Bible outlines anything you need to know about Christianity and how God and His angels generally appeared to humans.

The OT does not shed a very good light on your god. From an outside point of view, some of the things that the Christian god did in the OT appear to be evil. It seems to me that the only thing you can say is that god had the intrinsic right to do so. Then you follow by saying that if god did it, then it was good and not evil. Is that correct?

Deja~vu
Okay, I'm gonna ask again. When did Jesus come back and what's with him being a Buddha. A Buddha Jesus? lol

Mindship
Originally posted by Deja~vu
Okay, I'm gonna ask again. When did Jesus come back and what's with him being a Buddha. A Buddha Jesus? lol The Hindus consider him an avatar. Go figure.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Deja~vu
Okay, I'm gonna ask again. When did Jesus come back and what's with him being a Buddha. A Buddha Jesus? lol

Wrong thread. big grin

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Deja~vu
Okay, I'm gonna ask again. When did Jesus come back and what's with him being a Buddha. A Buddha Jesus? lol

Ok, in a nutshell -

Jesus, Buddha, Lao Zi and (possibly) Krishna are one the same, as in, it is possible they are the same spirit.

It is at times frightening how parallel their teachings, their sayings and their overall messages are. Par contrast, while Islam, Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism are in fact extremely similar religions in dogmatic terms, at their very core, they're very very different.

I know this will sound weird, but Christianity, if it is followed in terms of Jesus' actions and words (forget the God of Abraham for one minute here and the Christianity you know today) is much much closer to Buddhism, Hinduism and Taoism than it is to Islam and Judaism.
It has been established that all Jesus' teachings which were either difficult to explain to the common people or were too hard to grasp were in fact scrapped in the early days of Christianity.

If you only concentrate on Buddha and Jesus, and read about them and what they said, you will soon understand what Shaky and I mean. If you extend that comparison to Lao Zi and Krishna, your mind will be blown.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Bat Dude
Sin is sin is sin. Every sin has the same weight in God's eyes. You have to understand that God is perfect in all His ways. He is eternal and pure. Any sin in the sight of God is abhorrent. Whether that's pride, lust, greed, or murder.

God does decide who lives and dies.

God gave the law of the Old Testament to Moses. That was the old covenant. In the old covenant, God commanded that adulterers, fornicators, witches, astrologers, murderers, etc. be killed, so that their sin didn't permeate through the population, thus opening the people to demonic influences. ("A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."wink

Obviously, we aren't under the old covenant anymore, so we're not commanded to do that anymore. Anyone who goes out and kills abortion doctors is a hypocrite. Jesus is the new, better covenant.

What I have a great problem with is the New Age idea that Jesus was some Eastern mystic. That's no offense to you, it's just what I have a big problem with.

Interesting.

So, let me clarify few things first, before I accept the Old Testament in its entirety -

How exactly did God give Moses the Old Testament and the rules?

Unless the original Old Testament was written in Egyptian hieroglyphics, that type of book and rules did not exist until the Jews came in contact with Phoenicians who already had a well developed alphabet from where the Jews developed theirs, which took a while. Even then, their new found way of writing had no vowels for even a longer time.

This puzzles me.

Either there was a long period of time before God's words were put down on paper or the original OT was written in hieroglyphics.

Those who finally wrote the OT down, how exactly were they sure that they were writting it down correctly? Moses was long dead by that time. Did God speak to those people equally the way he spoke to Moses in order for them to jot it down right?

Why did God even bother speaking to Moses? Why didn't he get a random Assyrian or Phoenecian who can read and write and had a developed and advanced linguistic and writing system?
That would have been easier and far more productive, I feel.

If God didn't want Assyrians or Phoenicians, why didn't God, instead of handing the Jews a book of rules, hand them down an alphabet and/or a language first?

I find it hard to believe that God speaks to only one person while ignoring everyone else. Why does God ignore everyone else?
The way he is able to speak to Moses, he is able to speak to everyone else.
That in itself would save a lot of time and effort and war and death.

For the record, I do believe God speaks to everyone, equally and at all times.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Interesting.

So, let me clarify few things first, before I accept the Old Testament in its entirety -

How exactly did God give Moses the Old Testament and the rules?

Unless the original Old Testament was written in Egyptian hieroglyphics, that type of book and rules did not exist until the Jews came in contact with Phoenicians who already had a well developed alphabet from where the Jews developed theirs, which took a while. Even then, their new found way of writing had no vowels for even a longer time.

This puzzles me.

Either there was a long period of time before God's words were put down on paper or the original OT was written in hieroglyphics.

Those who finally wrote the OT down, how exactly were they sure that they were writting it down correctly? Moses was long dead by that time. Did God speak to those people equally the way he spoke to Moses in order for them to jot it down right?

Why did God even bother speaking to Moses? Why didn't he get a random Assyrian or Phoenecian who can read and write and had a developed and advanced linguistic and writing system?
That would have been easier and far more productive, I feel.

If God didn't want Assyrians or Phoenicians, why didn't God, instead of handing the Jews a book of rules, hand them down an alphabet and/or a language first?

I find it hard to believe that God speaks to only one person while ignoring everyone else. Why does God ignore everyone else?
The way he is able to speak to Moses, he is able to speak to everyone else.
That in itself would save a lot of time and effort and war and death.

For the record, I do believe God speaks to everyone, equally and at all times.

God uses expedient means to lead all to nirvana.

In that way Moses had his way, and the Egyptians had their own.

You have your way, and I have mine.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
God uses expedient means to lead all to nirvana.

In that way Moses had his way, and the Egyptians had their own.

You have your way, and I have mine.

Except, in practice, it isn't like that. It's nowhere near like that.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Except, in practice, it isn't like that. It's nowhere near like that.

What do you mean?

0mega Spawn
same reason people draw him in white robes with light flying around his body & silver gray hair

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What do you mean?

Apparently, God of Abraham has one way and that way is THE way. The only problem is that the way he insists things are done are so impractical and confusing, yet, he insists that's the only way.

If people want to be impractical and confusing, that's absolutely fine by me, but insisting on one thing only and that this God will throw everyone else into Hellfire if they don't do as they say he said or is born into a particular family, becomes a problem for me.

Scaremongering is a problem for me. Men who frighten others with Hell have already brought them Hell on earth.

Deja~vu
I think many people have really distored Jesus. They are too busy judging others, going to bible study that they have missed the message Jesus was bringing. It is a real shame and it gives Christians a bad name. If I were a Christian, I would be ashamed to call myself one. I would totally dissassociate myself from the group.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Apparently, God of Abraham has one way and that way is THE way. The only problem is that the way he insists things are done are so impractical and confusing, yet, he insists that's the only way.

If people want to be impractical and confusing, that's absolutely fine by me, but insisting on one thing only and that this God will throw everyone else into Hellfire if they don't do as they say he said or is born into a particular family, becomes a problem for me.

Scaremongering is a problem for me. Men who frighten others with Hell have already brought them Hell on earth.

I think you confused what I said. The god of Abraham is an expedient means. The scaremongering is marketing, created and used by humans to gain over others.

Humans are delusional, but the Buddha is not.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think you confused what I said. The god of Abraham is an expedient means. The scaremongering is marketing, created and used by humans to gain over others.

Humans are delusional, but the Buddha is not.

Exactly.
And yeah, I did misunderstand. I got confused with 'you have your own way, I have mine and they have theirs'.

I just wish people would just keep to that rule...all the time. Be open for dialogue...and such.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Deja~vu
I think many people have really distored Jesus. They are too busy judging others, going to bible study that they have missed the message Jesus was bringing. It is a real shame and it gives Christians a bad name. If I were a Christian, I would be ashamed to call myself one. I would totally dissassociate myself from the group.

I am of belief that if God handed out clear instructions to ALL of mankind, there would be no need for religious scholars, because the rules would be clear. I detest the idea that I, and all other average people, are of a lesser ability than a rabbi/priest/imam to interpret the words of God that are supposed to be clear and timeless.

Because wisdom is timeless, as in, true wisdom.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I am of belief that if God handed out clear instructions to ALL of mankind, there would be no need for religious scholars, because the rules would be clear. I detest the idea that I, and all other average people, are of a lesser ability than a rabbi/priest/imam to interpret the words of God that are supposed to be clear and timeless.

Because wisdom is timeless, as in, true wisdom.

All things are temporal and ever changing, and so would any clear instructions given by God. That would explain why there are no such clear instructions. I know, many people claim there are instructions, but they are just expedient means.

Mindship

Shakyamunison

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