Wonderman/Namor/Ms. Marvel vs Classic Wonder Woman

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carver9
Who wins?

aztec
Is Wonder Woman Bloodlusted and fighting to the best of her abilities?

abhilegend
Team but carol would need implants afterwards..







Again.131dur

aztec
Not really, Diana has good odds against the team. She fought multiple teams of hero's and villians who were more powerful than these three combine.

In Greg Rucka's run, Diana held her own against the Justice League while blind. Sure, they weren't going all out. But, she proved that she's more than a match for all of them combine. During, their brief stunt Black Canary was using her cry, while the Martian, Plasticman and Flash were trying to over power her. Eventually, Diana broke loose and went at it with the league.

Diana has the speed to out perform the trio. She's proven to be a match for speedsters on multiple occasions. In The Justice League Hypotetical Woman: Flash was blitzing Wonder Woman, up until she let loose. She was able to land a blow which took him out eventually. In Greg Ruckas run, written by both Greg and Geoff Johns Diana was able to get the better of Zoom while blinded. Zoom was toying with Diana, but nevertheless she held her own against the mad speedster, who was said to hit just as hard as Superman. Then their's the Amazo incident. She was able to blitz him, when he had the combine speed of Flash, Martian, Superman and her own. Let's not forget that Cheetah, is a speedster on her own right.

Strength - Diana overpowers each of them individualy. In the Omac Project, she took punches from an enraged Superman who taught she was Doomsday. At that time, she wasn't going all out.

Before that, WW held her own against a cloned Doomsday who was said to be more powerful than the first. Eventually, she overpowered him with the aid of Hercules after a tough battle.

With her combine strenght, trinkets and speed Diana can take the slight majority from the team. She can lasso her toughtest opponent and then duke it out with the other two. From what I've read, Ms. Marvel hasn't impressived me much so she'll be the first to go. Namor is perhaps, the toughtest oppent, but once again she'll lasso him from the start. Then it'll be her vs. Wonderman, who pales in comparison to her.

abhilegend
Originally posted by aztec
Not really, Diana has good odds against the team. She fought multiple teams of hero's and villians who were more powerful than these three combine.

In Greg Rucka's run, Diana held her own against the Justice League while blind. Sure, they weren't going all out. But, she proved that she's more than a match for all of them combine. During, their brief stunt Black Canary was using her cry, while the Martian, Plasticman and Flash were trying to over power her. Eventually, Diana broke loose and went at it with the league.

Diana has the speed to out perform the trio. She's proven to be a match for speedsters on multiple occasions. In The Justice League Hypotetical Woman: Flash was blitzing Wonder Woman, up until she let loose. She was able to land a blow which took him out eventually. In Greg Ruckas run, written by both Greg and Geoff Johns Diana was able to get the better of Zoom while blinded. Zoom was toying with Diana, but nevertheless she held her own against the mad speedster, who was said to hit just as hard as Superman. Then their's the Amazo incident. She was able to blitz him, when he had the combine speed of Flash, Martian, Superman and her own. Let's not forget that Cheetah, is a speedster on her own right.

Strength - Diana overpowers each of them individualy. In the Omac Project, she took punches from an enraged Superman who taught she was Doomsday. At that time, she wasn't going all out.

Before that, WW held her own against a cloned Doomsday who was said to be more powerful than the first. Eventually, she overpowered him with the aid of Hercules after a tough battle.

With her combine strenght, trinkets and speed Diana can take the slight majority from the team. She can lasso her toughtest opponent and then duke it out with the other two. From what I've read, Ms. Marvel hasn't impressived me much so she'll be the first to go. Namor is perhaps, the toughtest oppent, but once again she'll lasso him from the start. Then it'll be her vs. Wonderman, who pales in comparison to her.
Don't try to teach me on wonder woman, ok. I know what she's capable off, but team takes the majority. Namor has tangled with almost every powerhouse on marvel earth from hulk, thor, surfer, sentry, hercules and has always managed to hold his own. Simon is no pushover either and carol can seduce diana. Team 6/10.

Newjak
Yeah I think this is a fight the team can win.

aztec
Originally posted by abhilegend
Don't try to teach me on wonder woman, ok. I know what she's capable off, but team takes the majority. Namor has tangled with almost every powerhouse on marvel earth from hulk, thor, surfer, sentry, hercules and has always managed to hold his own. Simon is no pushover either and carol can seduce diana. Team 6/10.

Great counter argument. If it were Superman against these three, you'd give him the high majority. Say's much about your debating skills.
I'm sure your knowledgeable based on the Wonder Woman scans you've read. wink

Diana still takes the slight majority. Nice try. smile

aztec
Originally posted by Newjak
Yeah I think this is a fight the team can win.


How, if Diana if fighting to the best of her abilities? She's better than they are in the strength, speed and durability department. Add her trinkets which are one hit wonder and she takes the slight majority from the team. Her Tiara can decapitate any of them. Her bracelts can deflect anything they throw at her, or she can simple use her lighting to zap them.

Newjak
Originally posted by aztec
How, if Diana if fighting to the best of her abilities? She's better than they are in the strength, speed and durability department. Add her trinkets which are one hit wonder and she takes the slight majority from the team. Her Tiara can decapitate any of them. Her bracelts can deflect anything they throw at her, or she can simple use her lighting to zap them. You only gave Diana the slight majority so you yourself must think they can pull wins erm

aztec
Originally posted by Newjak
You only gave Diana the slight majority so you yourself must think they can pull wins erm

That's because it depends on the circumstances. If she's fighting to the best of her abilities, then she can pull 6-7/10. If they were fighting in character, the team would take the high mayority. Anyway, I'd give the same odds to Superman or Thor. I'm an avid Wonder Woman fan, so I'm pretty knowledgeable on the character. I follow her, Superman and Hal the most.

Newjak
Originally posted by aztec
That's because it depends on the circumstances. If she's fighting to the best of her abilities, then she can pull 6-7/10. If they were fighting in character, the team would take the high mayority. Anyway, I'd give the same odds to Superman or Thor. I'm an avid Wonder Woman fan, so I'm pretty knowledgeable on the character. I follow her, Superman and Hal the most. I'm not the biggest Wonder Woman expert but I do believe Superman/Thor > Wonder Woman, but while she does have good reaction feats I've never seen anything with her being an actually speedster herself. While she has some very great weapons tehy're mostly close range, plus I could Ionic Wonder man possibly give her problems although she is magical.

I don't know who I would give the majority to but I definitely think the team could beat her for at least some.

I don't see the team beating Superman or Thor though.

abhilegend
Originally posted by aztec
Great counter argument. If it were Superman against these three, you'd give him the high majority. Say's much about your debating skills.
I'm sure your knowledgeable based on the Wonder Woman scans you've read. wink

Diana still takes the slight majority. Nice try. smile
Nice try kid, but I have read every WW comics after crisis so don't try to tell me what I have or haven't read. I only debate what I've read unlike you. Superman is above WW in power last I checked.

Q99
Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman is above WW in power last I checked.

Not by a lot, though. They have fought often, and the two most common results are either (1) stalemate with neither hurt, if both are holding back, or (2) bloody on both sides if they're going at it for real.


That it's 'stronger, but close' is pretty explicit.


Also, Wondy is a quite good tactician. She's good at reducing the advantages of a group while applying her own strengths. WW'd go for the weak link (Carol), get the enemies to get in each other's way, use the lasso to tie them up, etc., so a vs group fight plays to her strengths fairly well.

aztec
Originally posted by Newjak
I'm not the biggest Wonder Woman expert but I do believe Superman/Thor > Wonder Woman, but while she does have good reaction feats I've never seen anything with her being an actually speedster herself. While she has some very great weapons tehy're mostly close range, plus I could Ionic Wonder man possibly give her problems although she is magical.

I don't know who I would give the majority to but I definitely think the team could beat her for at least some.

I don't see the team beating Superman or Thor though.

I'd put Superman over Thor and Wonder Woman. However, each character has an advantage over the other. As far as WW vs. Thor, it's debatable. But, *cough* *cough*, the blond is going down. stick out tongue
I'm not an avid Thor fan, but from what I've read I place him and Diana in the same category.

Diana has tagged speedsters on multiple occasions. It's been shown or stated on panel in Final Crisis, Justice League, Wonder Woman etc... She's often downgraded, because one she's a female and two most people don't read her comics. I've collected almost evertything she's been a mayor part of after Post Crisis. Clark, Diana and Hal are my trinity because of the Superfriends. big grin

Anyway, as mentioned before, Diana has great reaction feats. She has stoped Zoom, Wally and Cheetah on more than one occasion. She knock Wally, when he was attacking her head on. Back then, Wally was being mind controlled, by Amazo. The theirs the Zoom incident when she was blind. She held her own against the mad speedster, and eventually took him out.

- Both, Barry and Wally have been impressed by her sheer speed.

- When Grant Morrison wrote the Justice League, Diana and Clark attacked The General at Supersonic speeds.

- Diana was able to lasso Amazo, when he had the combine speed of Wally West, John Jonzz, Superman and her own.

- She flew from Canada to Washington DC in seconds.

- The Martian connected the minds of Wally, Clark and Diana's to plot an attack against the Androids who invaded Adam Strange home. (Grant Morrisons Justice League) John stated that they could process and think faster than sound. I might be mistaken, haven't read that story arc in a while.

As far as her weapons: The Tiara can decapite her opponent and her vambraces release Zeus lighting. She's used them offensively on more than one occasion. The Tiara wounded Superman badly in the OMAC Project and the lighting turn an Android into pieces and harm a goddess.

I'm sure that I'm missing a-lot of information, I'd have to reread everything I own of her.

If your interested, I can reccomend some highly impressive trades with feats written by Gail Simone and Greg Rucka. --> The Rise of the Olympian and Land of the Dead.

aztec
Originally posted by Newjak
I'm not the biggest Wonder Woman expert but I do believe Superman/Thor > Wonder Woman, but while she does have good reaction feats I've never seen anything with her being an actually speedster herself. While she has some very great weapons tehy're mostly close range, plus I could Ionic Wonder man possibly give her problems although she is magical.

I don't know who I would give the majority to but I definitely think the team could beat her for at least some.

I don't see the team beating Superman or Thor though.

We could always exchange info on Thor and Wonder Woman. Lately, I've been wanting to buy more of his trades, so I can debate against him. stick out tongue

aztec
Originally posted by abhilegend
Nice try kid, but I have read every WW comics after crisis so don't try to tell me what I have or haven't read. I only debate what I've read unlike you. Superman is above WW in power last I checked.

How old are you? Like, ten. But, seriously, for being an avid Wonder Woman fan you sure know a-lot about her. eek!

I never said she was above Superman. Trust me, most of the trades and individual issues I own are of him. Each is capable of taking out one another. They each have their own advantages.

If you were an avid Wonder Woman reader, you'd note that she's dealt with multiple teams of villains and heros: The Justice League, White Martians and her own villans who were all more powerful than Namor, Carol and Simon.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Q99
Not by a lot, though. They have fought often, and the two most common results are either (1) stalemate with neither hurt, if both are holding back, or (2) bloody on both sides if they're going at it for real.


That it's 'stronger, but close' is pretty explicit.


Also, Wondy is a quite good tactician. She's good at reducing the advantages of a group while applying her own strengths. WW'd go for the weak link (Carol), get the enemies to get in each other's way, use the lasso to tie them up, etc., so a vs group fight plays to her strengths fairly well.
Check out their last awesome "fight"

http://deliciouscake.wazdat.com/img/Superman_51.jpg_FinalCrisis_6_p34.jpg

Wonder woman is a peer of superman only in her own comic, in his own comic and majority of JLA appearances there are only two peers of kal :Orion and Captain marvel.

abhilegend
Originally posted by aztec
How old are you? Like, ten. But, seriously, for being an avid Wonder Woman fan you sure know a-lot about her. eek!

I never said she was above Superman. Trust me, most of the trades and individual issues I own are of him. Each is capable of taking out one another. They each have their own advantages.

If you were an avid Wonder Woman reader, you'd note that she's dealt with multiple teams of villains and heros: The Justice League, White Martians and her own villans who were all more powerful than Namor, Carol and Simon. Originally posted by abhilegend
Check out their last awesome "fight"

http://deliciouscake.wazdat.com/img/Superman_51.jpg_FinalCrisis_6_p34.jpg

Wonder woman is a peer of superman only in her own comic, in his own comic and majority of JLA appearances there are only two peers of kal :Orion and Captain marvel.
The same martians who oneshotted her once and drowning her again untill kal saved her. That's going by just high end feats. Namor has oneshotted hulk and BRB, simon has koed classic abomination and is "almost as strong as thor".

aztec
Originally posted by abhilegend
Check out their last awesome "fight"

http://deliciouscake.wazdat.com/img/Superman_51.jpg_FinalCrisis_6_p34.jpg

Wonder woman is a peer of superman only in her own comic, in his own comic and majority of JLA appearances there are only two peers of kal :Orion and Captain marvel.

Lawls, at the scan you provided. Did you read Final Crisis? Diana was poison by Mary Marvel, which allowed the Anti-Life Equation to take complete control over her. She wasn't sane, therefore wasn't fighting to the best of her abilities. Thanks for making me laugh. eek!

In Superman's run written by Brian Azarallo, Diana and Clark were doing well against each other. Clark didn't dominate her there, nor did he dominate her in the OMAC Project. She held her own against an enraged Superman. Try again friend. Also, don't bring Captain Marvel or Orion into play, because Hippoylta has alread made Orion bleed, and Diana is >> Polly. wink

aztec
Originally posted by abhilegend
The same martians who oneshotted her once and drowning her again untill kal saved her. That's going by just high end feats. Namor has oneshotted hulk and BRB, simon has koed classic abomination and is "almost as strong as thor".

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.. It was PIS. Diana has the ability to see past illusions. It's been shown on panel before. You as a Wonder Woman reader, should've known.

Also, she was strugglin in the water because she was blind sided by the Martians. Diana taught the person drowing was either Wally or Plasticman. I can't remember off the top of my head. But, the whole point is that she went to save him. Anyway, later on the League faced the Martians head on. She held her own against two or three. So try again friend, and don't forget context.

abhilegend
Originally posted by aztec
Lawls, at the scan you provided. Did you read Final Crisis? Diana was poison by Mary Marvel, which allowed the Anti-Life Equation to take complete control over her. She wasn't sane, therefore wasn't fighting to the best of her abilities. Thanks for making me laugh. eek!

In Superman's run written by Brian Azarallo, Diana and Clark were doing well against each other. Clark didn't dominate her there, nor did he dominate her in the OMAC Project. She held her own against an enraged Superman. Try again friend. Also, don't bring Captain Marvel or Orion into play, because Hippoylta has alread made Orion bleed, and Diana is >> Polly. wink
That's your argument? Pitiful. Diana was just a carrier of god-bacteria. In fact one of your feats i.e. barry and wally complementing her speed comes from the same "weakened" state. Read final crisis.
You mean the "bitchslap" comic where an unintrested superman was slapping her around? You mean WW 219, where superman used rocks to fight "doomsday"? Wow great ABC logic there sherlock, orion tore out darkseid's heart, darkseid wtfpwns WW by a backhand. Calculate yourself.

aztec
Originally posted by abhilegend
That's your argument? Pitiful. Diana was just a carrier of god-bacteria. In fact one of your feats i.e. barry and wally complementing her speed comes from the same "weakened" state. Read final crisis.
You mean the "bitchslap" comic where an unintrested superman was slapping her around? You mean WW 219, where superman used rocks to fight "doomsday"? Wow great ABC logic there sherlock, orion tore out darkseid's heart, darkseid wtfpwns WW by a backhand. Calculate yourself.

Thanks for bringing great arguments to the table Watson. roll eyes (sarcastic)

"Bitchslap", watch your language boy. Don't get upset. It's just a comic debate. Anyway, as far as that fights concern, neither one of them was going all out. Diana was trying to talk Clark it.

Barry and Wally commenting on Diana's speed, means a-lot because she affected by the Anti-Life Equation. Diana wasn't going all out. When Superman attacked, she was focusing on the other heros. Ha'd Diana known she could have block the attack with her vambraces, or move out of the way. It's quite simple. confused

I don't recall Superman using rocks to fight Doomsday, if so then that was complete sick ... Clark, broke her risk and knock her out of orbit. If that doesn't impress you, then your obviously a delisional fanboy, who can't see past the Red Cape. Once again, Diana knew he was being mind controlled. That's why she went after Maxwell Lord. She could have ended Superman, and she nearly did when she threw her Tiara at him. wink

Q99
In that Final Crisis page... what makes anyone think she stayed down? Wonder Woman played an active role in the battle against Darkseid, remember.

Being knocked off of her riding beast doesn't mean she's out or even hurt, and that's all that happened there.

Originally posted by abhilegend

You mean the "bitchslap" comic where an unintrested superman was slapping her around?

In For Tomorrow, they both hit each other back and forth, Superman was trying to get past her and couldn't, and had to resort to 'look, innocents in danger! Go save them," in order to get past her.

WW was, noteworthily, never hurt in that fight. Yes, there was a 'slap' blow, but WW also hit Superman repeatedly too, about an equal number of hits, so don't misrepresent it.

So the way it happened in Superman's own book was "they fight back and forth, neither hurt, until Clark comes up with a distraction to sneak past her."




Looking through Sacrifice, I never saw him use rocks, but he did fight in a very forum-optimal bloodlusted fashion: He started out by using super speed in combination with super strength to try and throw her into the sun while blasting heat vision in her face.


Pretty much Superman was fighting as everyone always wants him to fight. Not only was he not messing around, but he uses his powers in combination better than just about any other fights he's been in. I think only the Elite fight and OWAW can claim the same or better.


Also, he actively dodged her lasso. So while he was as enraged as fighting 'doomsday,' he was fighting as if he was fighting Wonder Woman and avoiding/working to counter her specific advantages that Doomsday didn't have. He wasn't acting like he was fighting a weaponless melee only bruiser.


-
Another fight is the one where Circe enchants Superman and makes him grow Doomsday spikes, consuming him in rage. Not holding back in strength at all, and even with physical enhancements (though obvious less tactical thought), Diana was still able to hurt him physically, take hits, and deal with him.

---

One thing I find interesting is in non-Wonder Woman books, they tend to fight without hurting each other, while it's in WW books where it's noted that Clark's stronger and they hurt each other a lot in drag-out knock down fights where she tries to hold on until she can use a weapon to entangle him or cut his throat.


And they've fought something like a half-dozen times in the post crisis era, and I don't think Wonder Woman has a single defeat one on one.


Sacrifice, notably, was a big event fight. Meaning the higher ups definitely had directly say in how it would go, and the way they decided was both of them being very injured and bloody by the end.

Konton
Wondy 10/10

leonidas
if she is actively trying to kill them, she would. carol would go first. she's simply too fast, strong and skilled.

if this is the more common ww, team would take the majority imo.

JakeTheBank
Lol.

I've read virtually every post crisis comic of Diana's to date and yes, the team can most certainly win this. All things being equal and everyone acting in character, the combined effort of the team would ultimately prove too much for her, though she'd put up a great effort.

If she went nutso and tapped into the CBR Force or something, she could begin soul raping people and cutting vital arteries with the tiara to great effect. She's not likely to do that, however.

Generally, Team gets the majority.

Q99
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

If she went nutso and tapped into the CBR Force or something, she could begin soul raping people and cutting vital arteries with the tiara to great effect. She's not likely to do that, however.


Yea, she's one of the characters with a large gap between normal and bloodlusted.

OneDumbG0
Has ionic Wonder Man been physically battered unconscious? I'd think he has, but I can't even remember when it happened since his return from the dead.

Q99
Ares suckerpunch KOed him, iirc.

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