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Bane with an endless, impossible to interrupt supply of venom.

And Cap with shield.

1. Vs normal Danny.

2. Vs red suited, mindless, bloodlusted Danny.

Who wins?

team wins 1. don't know about 2.

Originally posted by leonidas
team wins 1. don't know about 2.

Normal Danny wins easily. Neither of his opponents can take his hits for long, neither can defend against his aoe, and neither can lay a hand on him thanks to his bullet-catching reflexes. He doesn't even need his signature moves.

I don't remember red suit Danny, but I think he nearly beat Black Panther to death in spite of his vibranium suit without sustaining any real injury? If so, he wins too.

Originally posted by leonidas
team wins 1. don't know about 2. Good point. Team right and left Fist wins 1, but I'd have to give it to duo Fists in scenario 2 too.

^ man, i told you--stop staring at taylor. it does bad stuff to you. or is that you mindset? did you hack bran's account again....?

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
neither can lay a hand on him thanks to his bullet-catching reflexes. He doesn't even need his signature moves.

cap can't hit him?? er, that's so far wrong it actually needed to be highlighted.

Cap solos. Iron Fist might be the most recent boner factor for the current batch of KMC trolls with mindset and bran competing tooth and nail for the coveted role of floor manager... but that doesn't change the fact that Iron Fist is a glass canon and Cap would shatter him.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxz5a9h3rU1qbox99o1_400.jpg

This thread is now about Terriers, the killed far to soon great FX show.

Originally posted by leonidas
cap can't hit him?? er, that's so far wrong it actually needed to be highlighted.


Is it that controversial? One of them dances through machine gun fire. The other is Captain America.

How does a peak human like Cap ever hit a guy several tiers faster and more skilled in comics? PIS. There's no PIS here, so...

You mean the same Captain America that "dances through machine gun fire" himself? Just like virtually every other top tier street...

Maybe you should read some Captain America comics, or at the very least try and google his feats, because Steve is faster than Danny. No ifs ands or buts.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You mean the same Captain America that "dances through machine gun fire" himself? Just like virtually every other top tier street...

Maybe you should read some Captain America comics, or at the very least try and google his feats, because Steve is faster than Danny. No ifs ands or buts.

Cap dodges his enemies' aim, like any top tier street. Danny sees the bullets coming and weaves through them, parries them with his hand, or catches them. Surely you can see the difference.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You mean the same Captain America that "dances through machine gun fire" himself? Just like virtually every other top tier street...

Maybe you should read some Captain America comics, or at the very least try and google his feats, because Steve is faster than Danny. No ifs ands or buts. He's faster in running speed but not in reactions or limb movement speed.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Cap dodges his enemies' aim, like any top tier street. Danny sees the bullets coming and weaves through them, parries them with his hand, or catches them. Surely you can see the difference.



Of the two characters in this thread only one of them has ever been attributed with the ability to "see" bullets in slow motion, and it's not Iron Fist. It might be helpful for you to have some knowledge on the respective abilities and feats of both characters before you try and make the case that one is an aim dodger, while one is a legitimate bullet timer.

Originally posted by h1a8
He's faster in running speed but not in reactions or limb movement speed.

Cap is just faster. Period.

One time someone shot a rocket at Cap. He saw the rocket coming, jumped off his motorcycle, climbed a tree, tossed his shield and koed the shooter, before the missile hit his motorcycle. He has outpaced bullets and ran around DD like a blur. It's awesome that one time Iron Fist managed to catch a bullet... but it doesn't stack up.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cap is just faster. Period.

One time someone shot a rocket at Cap. He saw the rocket coming, jumped off his motorcycle, climbed a tree, tossed his shield and koed the shooter, before the missile hit his motorcycle. He has outpaced bullets and ran around DD like a blur. It's awesome that one time Iron Fist managed to catch a bullet... but it doesn't stack up.

No he isn't. A missile isn't as fast as a bullet in the beginning. Cap never outpaced bullets. The Red Skull scan was debunked a long time ago. Either the first three shots missed, writer's intention wasn't to literally show Cap can run faster than a bullet, or it was PIS (choose).

Catching a bullet is more relevant than anything here. Think about it.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cap is just faster. Period.

Except according to their powersets and the way they have been routinely portrayed.

One time someone shot a rocket at Cap. He saw the rocket coming, jumped off his motorcycle, climbed a tree, tossed his shield and koed the shooter, before the missile hit his motorcycle. He has outpaced bullets and ran around DD like a blur. It's awesome that one time Iron Fist managed to catch a bullet... but it doesn't stack up.

A) don't really know how fast that rocket was, but we can assume one thing: it's a lot slower than a bullet.

B) What does "outpaced bullets" mean?

C) I would LOVE to see a scan of him running around DD like a blur, because he would pretty much have to be Quicksilver to pull that off as a clean feat.

Danny routinely reacts to bullets in-flight. He caught one from an automatic rifle while poisoned. He kicks around guys like Wolverine as if they were helpless toddlers when he's already tired. He KOed Sabertooth while blind. He defeats guys who hold their own against Spider-Man. He punches guys like Colossus through brick walls. He one-punched a helicarrier. He has area of effect chi attacks and ranged chi attacks. His standard iron fist tears up Black Panther's vibranium suit.

There's no shame in a street-leveler losing to a mid-tier monster like Danny.

Originally posted by h1a8
No he isn't. A missile isn't as fast as a bullet in the beginning.

Missiles can be A LOT faster than bullets, actually.

Infantry rockets can have muzzle velocities of 950 feet per second. Comparably as fast to the muzzle velocity of a glock pistol at 1200 feet per second.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cap solos. Iron Fist might be the most recent boner factor for the current batch of KMC trolls with mindset and bran competing tooth and nail for the coveted role of floor manager... but that doesn't change the fact that Iron Fist is a glass canon and Cap would shatter him.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxz5a9h3rU1qbox99o1_400.jpg

This thread is now about Terriers, the killed far to soon great FX show.
You're just an acolyte for things that suck, aren't you? 131

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Good point. Team right and left Fist wins 1, but I'd have to give it to duo Fists in scenario 2 too.

Originally posted by h1a8
No he isn't. A missile isn't as fast as a bullet in the beginning. Cap never outpaced bullets. The Red Skull scan was debunked a long time ago. Either the first three shots missed, writer's intention wasn't to literally show Cap can run faster than a bullet, or it was PIS (choose).

Catching a bullet is more relevant than anything here. Think about it.

Like CosmicComet the speed of a rocket can be significantly greater than a bullet, and even shoulder mounted rocket can be comparable to the speed of a bullet or greater in some cases depending on the gun and the caliber. Even if the rocket Cap dodged was 20 times slower than the bullet Danny caught (which it isn't, 10% slower maybe), his feat would still be significantly more impressive. Steve didn't move his arm twelve inches and close his hand, he carried out a series of complex actions. It's a much better speed feat.

Cap out pacing the bullets was never "debunked." You can theorize about the intentions of the writer all you'd like, and say "well... maybe Skull missed (because as we all know he is a terrible marksman and can't hit a civi with a clear shot... am I right) and then fired three more bullets and it's just a coincidence!!!" but what was shown on panel was Red Skull firing three bullets at his target, and then Captain America (who was shown near Skull when the shots were fired) crossing the room to intercept the bullets and shield the target. You can make up all the excuses you want, but that is what happen.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
A) don't really know how fast that rocket was, but we can assume one thing: it's a lot slower than a bullet.

B) What does "outpaced bullets" mean?

C) I would LOVE to see a scan of him running around DD like a blur, because he would pretty much have to be Quicksilver to pull that off as a clean feat.

Danny routinely reacts to bullets in-flight. He caught one from an automatic rifle while poisoned. He kicks around guys like Wolverine as if they were helpless toddlers when he's already tired. He KOed Sabertooth while blind. He defeats guys who hold their own against Spider-Man. He punches guys like Colossus through brick walls. He one-punched a helicarrier. He has area of effect chi attacks and ranged chi attacks. His standard iron fist tears up Black Panther's vibranium suit.


A and B were covered above, and I'm sure you can easily find the feat referenced in C if you look around a bit.

Every street level "routinely reacts to bullets in-flight." Danny "kicked around" Wolveirne 30 years ago before Wolverine had any sort of character development and lacked the powers and skills he has today. Modern Wolverine puts Danny in an arm bar and leaves him making excuses about how much effort he was putting in. Same can be said of Sabretooth, and the Colossus incident to a lesser extent. Virtually every character in Marvel has beaten a character who managed to hold their own with Spider-man, or has held their own against Spider-man them self. He also did virtually no structural damage to the frame of the Helicarrier, he didn't split in in half or anything, he merely manage to knocked out a gyroscope or an engine turbine.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Good point. Team right and left Fist wins 1, but I'd have to give it to duo Fists in scenario 2 too.

Originally posted by leonidas
^ man, i told you--stop staring at taylor. it does bad stuff to you. or is that you mindset? did you hack bran's account again....?



cap can't hit him?? er, that's so far wrong it actually needed to be highlighted. Bran is the IF expert.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cap solos. Iron Fist might be the most recent boner factor for the current batch of KMC trolls Woah, hold up a bit. Let me try and work this out

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cap solos. Iron Fist might be the most recent boner factor for the current batch of KMC trolls

There, I think I got it

Originally posted by Omega Vision
You're just an acolyte for things that suck, aren't you? 131

I'd say I was surprised that you have poor taste in television and film... but I already guessed that you would based on your taste in comics.... and your sig and avi.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Even if the rocket Cap dodged was 20 times slower than the bullet Danny caught (which it isn't, 10% slower maybe).

Don't just make up numbers. 10% slower? The bullet was fired from a modern assault rifle, not some little glock, so we're actually talking 2500+ fps. Shoulder-fire rockets are usually between 500-900 fps. If you think this one is much faster, I'd like some proof.



What issue is it in? I want to see it. Because as you described it, it's so much faster than Cap is normally depicted.



So Cap is a speedster now? He grew a whole new super-power out of nowhere?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'd say I was surprised that you have poor taste in television and film... but I already guessed that you would based on your taste in comics.... and your sig and avi.
I actually have never heard of the show you were talking about, but congrats on being so easily trolled.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Is it that controversial? One of them dances through machine gun fire. The other is Captain America.

How does a peak human like Cap ever hit a guy several tiers faster and more skilled in comics? PIS. There's no PIS here, so...

You have never seen cap casual dodge machine gun fire or even automatic laser fire... really like really?

Also your question is is built on false information "several tiers faster" so for your sake lets just drop it...

Also not sure if you knew Randy got shot in the chest recently so yeah... thers that!

Originally posted by Lord Feron
You have never seen cap casual dodge machine gun fire or even automatic laser fire... really like really?

like I said, aim-dodging =/= bullet-timing.

Example 1: Batman is an aim-dodger and, on panel, appears to avoid getting shot with considerable skill as expected of a comic book peak human. Cass is a bullet-timer and, on panel, sees a bullet coming, thinks about a fun way to dodge it and dodges it. There is a huge speed gap between the two, and Cass tears Bruce apart without PIS.

Example 2: Neo and Trinity avoid bullets when they storm that skyscraper by doing wall-runs and flips and such like Batman/Cap would do. They outmaneuver their opponents aim . Neo doesn't actually see a bullet coming until he's on the rooftop, and even then all he can do is flail about awkwardly and still get grazed. At that point, Neo is demonstrably quicker than peak human. Trinity is appropriately impressed.

If he were fast enough to see it up close and dodge it very easily, he would be a tier above, like an Agent, Daredevil or Cass. If he were fast enough to see, parry and dance through dozens of them at once, he would be yet another tier higher: Danny and Spider-Man territory.




Thank you. But I have consistent portrayals of characters, sound theory and reason on my side. I'll take care of my own sake.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Also not sure if you knew Randy got shot in the chest recently so yeah... thers that!

And Silver Surfer got knocked out by a brick once. What's your point? That lowest showings count?

Originally posted by h1a8
No he isn't. A missile isn't as fast as a bullet in the beginning. Cap never outpaced bullets. The Red Skull scan was debunked a long time ago. Either the first three shots missed, writer's intention wasn't to literally show Cap can run faster than a bullet, or it was PIS (choose).

Catching a bullet is more relevant than anything here. Think about it.

Please Cap reflex speed is so fast he caught Danny punch speed "easily" in there first match.

Second Cap has blocked two energy beams easily with metal gauntlets and another time three times with his energy shield in different areas in one panel.

Seriously you want hand/arm speed. The guy threw his shield and has intercepted Thor's hammer throw.

Now that is speed.

Iron Fist.

Not easily, but he'd win.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Is it that controversial? One of them dances through machine gun fire. The other is Captain America.

the other is captain america?

so, you have, what--one, two maybe, scans where fist does that? yet every other time, where his speed is NOT that great, are the instances of PIS?

that is highballing and ignores the overwhelming number of feats that would show THAT feat to be the exception, not the rule. in direct combat cap was shown to be his very clear superior. IF has been given some amps, but he still is clearly inferior to logan in h2h combat and is CERTAINLY not 'tiers' faster than logan, with whom cap is also consistently shown to be a peer.



"peak human"? seriously? handbook and narrative statement aside, cap is certainly shown to be consistently above 'peak human', original intent notwithstanding. to say IF is 'tiers' above cap in speed and skill (when cap has schooled him and guys like spiderman himself) is, frankly, ridiculous.

in this fight the only advantages fist has, imo, are ranged attacks which cap can defend against, and a healing/durability edge (over cap, but not bane), but that edge is not great enough to get him the win. i don't see him using his chi exotically as that would not be in character for him.

either alone would give him hell. together? i don't see danny winning this fight......

Also Capt been stated on pannel to be the next step in human evolution. Capt not peak human in terms of what a human can achieve currently. He the peak a human will ever achieve. He is beyond what any living human can become. Which is why he physically beyond peak humans like Daredevil and Batman

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Also Capt been stated on pannel to be the next step in human evolution. Capt not peak human in terms of what a human can achieve currently. He the peak a human will ever achieve. He is beyond what any living human can become. Which is why he physically beyond peak humans like Daredevil and Batman

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Also Capt been stated on pannel to be the next step in human evolution. Capt not peak human in terms of what a human can achieve currently. He the peak a human will ever achieve. He is beyond what any living human can become. Which is why he physically beyond peak humans like Daredevil and Batman

Narrative hyperbole happens all the time. Because no, Cap's feats are not consistently better than those of Batman or Daredevil (who is much faster).

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Narrative hyperbole happens all the time. Because no, Cap's feats are not consistently better than those of Batman or Daredevil (who is much faster).

...

...

...

Do you not read Captain America comics? Is that what the problem is? He is called a Super Soldier and not a Peakhuman Soldier for a reason... and the reason is that is his superhuman. Hell, the last Cap arc was about a super human super soldier who had superhuman strength and speed (stated as being two times greater than the human limit), who hated Cap for being faster and stronger than he was and in essence replacing him (... plus stealing his girl friend but whatever). Ignoring the fact that Cap's feats are BLATANTLY better than Batman and Daredevil on consistent basis, there is a reason why Bucky says Cap has 3-4x his speed and strength and Cable said the same thing... because he does... because he is superhuman... which is why he has better feats.

I really wish someone would make a comprehensive Cap respect thread, so posters who are trying to get away by saying "Cap isn't displayed as better than Batman..." would be able to see how stupid they sound to people that actually read Captain America comics...

Originally posted by leonidas

so, you have, what--one, two maybe, scans where fist does that? yet every other time, where his speed is NOT that great, are the instances of PIS?

No, its his consistent portrayal. Spider-Man's been shot before, too. Spider-Man's been hit by slow enemies before. Are you going to argue that he isn't that fast anymore?



If you're referring to when the two fought in Avengers mansion, surely there's some important bits of context that you're leaving out. Perhaps you want to mention the fact that Danny was injured from fighting the freaking Wrecking Crew right before it (he was surprised to still be alive)? Or the fact that Danny was trying not to fight, while Cap wanted to fight very badly because he thought Danny killed Jarvis? Or the fact that even Cap admitted that Danny was holding back?



Even though he smacks logan around like a beach ball every time they ever really fight? Where are you getting this?

The first time they fought, Danny was already exhausted and Logan surprised him. Logan never landed a single blow. Danny, while consciously holding back, kicked him around and threw him out the window. Logan came back with both Nightcrawler and Colossus and Danny beat them all around without taking a single hit before Storm showed up.



In comic books, peak humans can do some pretty amazing things. Batman can snap a tree in half with a sidekick and support 2000 pounds over his head and get up after being punched through concrete walls and move so fast normal people have trouble following with their eyes. It isn't a slight to say someone is peak human.

But neither he nor Cap will do stuff like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63560350@N06/6796962256/

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He is called a Super Soldier and not a Peakhuman Soldier for a reason...

Alliteration?



So make one. Either light a candle or keep cursing the dark. I'm happy to be proven wrong with actual valid feats. The only impressive speed feats I've heard for Cap is one with bullets fired by Red Skull that seems disputed and one with an rpg that I asked to actually see.

I've read lots of Captain America, DD and Batman over the years. TO me, it seems like Cap has a little more stamina and strength than Bats, but no appreciable speed advantage. Meanwhile DD has speed and skill on both of them with less strength. Cap still just seems to aim-dodge and break down more powerful opponents with his superior skill. If you're taking what people say about him as direct evidence without feats, then I'm not impressed.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
...
." would be able to see how stupid they sound to people that actually read Captain America comics...


Exactly. Cap has been stated to be the next step in human evolution. He is faster then bullet timers(bullet timers have admitted it) and has speed feats that Danny wished he had. Cap/Bane for the majority and sometimes easily at that.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Also Capt been stated on pannel to be the next step in human evolution.



This guy knows whats up.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Narrative hyperbole happens all the time. Because no, Cap's feats are not consistently better than those of Batman or Daredevil (who is much faster).
your an idiot. You clearly have no idea what your talking about.




Daredevil has straight up stated Capts faster then he is. The fact you think Daredevil faster let a lone much faster, show syou have no business even in this debate.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff




Even though he smacks logan around like a beach ball every time they ever really fight? Where are you getting this?

Everytime? They fought twice. once before Wolveirne even ahd a healing factor written into his character, and Danny had to BFR him.

The other time, Wolverine won a sparing match handily, and IF start making excuses.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff


The first time they fought, Danny was already exhausted and Logan surprised him. Logan never landed a single blow. Danny, while consciously holding back, kicked him around and threw him out the window. Logan came back with both Nightcrawler and Colossus and Danny beat them all around without taking a single hit before Storm showed up.




Funny how you yell at other about ignoring context and then do the same shit yourself. Wolverine had no define history or even powers at the time of the fight. Yet I love how you leave this part out.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
your an idiot. You clearly have no idea what your talking about.




Daredevil has straight up stated Capts faster then he is.


Yup. DD also stated that immediately after Cap made him look like a statue. That's an incredible speed feat for Steve.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Daredevil has straight up stated Capts faster then he is. The fact you think Daredevil faster let a lone much faster, show syou have no business even in this debate.

Daredevil notices a sniper round by the time we see it in the reflection of the glasses of a man he is talking to and is still fast enough to dodge it. A sniper round from a few feet away. Daredevil reacts to bullets after they have been fired, thinks about them in mid-air, and bats them back at their shooters with a billy club. For all that he's cracked up to be, Cap simply doesn't do stuff that high-end.

There's a reason not to blindly accept what one character claims about another as evidence. Show me some clear, consistent examples of Cap doing what DD does and I'll concede that he has the reflexes to fight a PIS-less Danny.

ahh **** it i don't care anymore

LOL its not just a claim cap ran past a running daredevil and made him look like a statue.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Everytime? They fought twice. once before Wolveirne even ahd a healing factor written into his character, and Danny had to BFR him.

Danny didn't have to BFR him. He didn't even mean to; he just forgot where the window was. And a healing factor wouldn't change the fact that Logan was unable to land an attack on Danny, who smacked him all around the room.



Oh please. A friendly sparring match in the yard is not a fight and both men admitted they were holding back.

I think I remember another actual fight, but permit me to withdraw my "every time" comment until I can try to find it. Anyway, the one time we can prove they fought, Danny made him look like a chump without really trying.




It wasn't intentional; I just didn't know. Still, he had claws, was an X-Man, and he fought. Was he in the habit of being humiliated by weaker people at the time, or something?

Originally posted by Daredevil1
LOL its not just a claim cap ran past a running daredevil and made him look like a statue.

Ok, where? I've asked for examples like this, so why am I only hearing one by page 3? This alone isn't enough to be "consistent" but it's a good start if it holds up. Anyone got a scan or an issue number?

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Exactly. Cap has been stated to be the next step in human evolution.

On a side note, why is this even coming up? What difference does it make that a character is "stated" to be something? I called it narrative hyperbole because it's completely subjective. Sure, he may be somebody's idea of the next step in human evolution, but whose? Certainly experts on the subject like Magneto, the High Evolutionary or the Celestials would laugh hysterically at that phrasing.

That's why I judge characters on the idea that their best consistent feats indicate their fullest capability, throwing out showings that are inexplicably low or high and ignoring narrative statements and dialogue.

Dream Stuff makes some good points. But almost all street level characters are bullet timers, it stopped being a big deal awhile ago. Some characters have better bullet feats than others, but at the same time are constantly shown to be slower than them. Heck Typhoid Mary has a better bullet feat than say Deadpool. Is she faster? Hell no. As for Cap he has some feats of reacting to bullets after they're fired and every time he fights other MA streets he's shown to be in the same ballpark. So it's safe to say he is.

Team wins.

IF wins.

Originally posted by SamZED
Dream Stuff makes some good points. But almost all street level characters are bullet timers, it stopped being a big deal awhile ago. Some characters have better bullet feats than others, but at the same time are constantly shown to be slower than them. Heck Typhoid Mary has a better bullet feat than say Deadpool. Is she faster? Hell no. As for Cap he has some feats of reacting to bullets after they're fired and every time he fights other MA streets he's shown to be in the same ballpark. So it's safe to say he is.

A) Thank you.
B) So, we're just giving bullet-time reflexes away now? Anyone who keeps up with a bullet timer in combat must be a bullet-timer by extension despite never explicitly showing that kind of ability? Shall we also assume that every strong monster that beats on Superman is also as fast as he is?
C) Isn't Typhoid Mary faster than Deadpool?
D) Still waiting for Cap feats. Scans or issue/page numbers. I wouldn't be mad if Cap is a bullet-timer; I'd be happy to know beyond a few people's conjecture.

Since things seem to be going in circles, I'm going to quit until further evidence is brought to the table. Let me just make a closing argument.

Look, it makes sense that Cap will fare well in a fight against Iron Fist in an actual comic: he's an icon; they'd almost never fight each other seriously; and writers love to proceed as if any two characters have the same speed when fighting. That's why the PIS rule in your board's rulebook was invented, right? Because this sort of thing happens all the time.

But when you look at what they have done over and over for many years, few non-powered street levelers have the reflexes to see and react to bullets in-flight (Karate Kid, Shang Chi, Cass Cain, and Daredevil are the first to mind) and their reflexes are thus a very important part of their powersets.

Danny feats: He dodges bullets in flight. He parries them away. He catches them. He parries 40 fletches automatically fired at close range. He practically walks straight toward gunmen on several occasions because, unlike peak humans, he doesn't need to bother with running, jumping and flipping to avoid bullets. He lets them empty their magazines so they can stand there looking confused about how a human can be that fast, then he knocks them out. He is that fast and always has been.

And Danny is not a street leveler. He HAS a hax superpower that amps aspects of his already-peak human body to metahuman levels. His speed is solidly mid-tier based on many high showings, and his striking power is quite a bit greater than that. With PIS off, he's a suitable match up for someone like Spider-Man, not a couple of streets. You want to see a realistic fight in comics? Black Panther is generally considered pretty high on the street leveler totem pole... ask him how he fared in hand-to-hand against even a dumb, bloodlusted Danny.

That's it. Rant over.

EDIT: Sorry for the essay.

Obviously to me you don't know much about Cap though as most fans have been correcting you on him. The fact that we have to point out his consistent feats of racing past DD like he's a breeze.

Or playing in a room full of laser beams under zero gravity.

Or moving about so fast that a shooter was shooting him in the exact spot that he was, despite Steve being already around him.

To the point that he has even once batted a bullet back with his shield Daredevil style.(it actually might be a laser beam making it more impressive)

I mean seriously and you know Steve's consistent feats.

Have you even seen his match up with classic Danny since your impressed with classic Danny's hand speed against the fletchetes. Steve caught easily Danny's hand speed.

Maybe you just look at all of Steve's lows me thinks. You got to look at his consistency from everything and put it together. His feats/ direct comparisons/power level gauge. It all goes hand and hand.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff


And Danny is not a street leveler. He HAS a hax superpower that amps aspects of his already-peak human body to metahuman levels.


Exactly. You asked why we brought up that Steve is the next step in human evolution. Its as important as bringing up that Danny is dragon enhanced.

Danny was not dumb.

He was smart enough to chase after the speedster that is BP in a car. And both did very well against each other.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
No, its his consistent portrayal. Spider-Man's been shot before, too. Spider-Man's been hit by slow enemies before. Are you going to argue that he isn't that fast anymore?

really? so you must have loads of scans to back it up? you're using your single feat to highball. we don't use single scans here. we look at both combat feats and regular feats as well as history to form a general impression of the character. in general, cap and fist are peers in speed, and history would tell us cap would ABSOLUTELY and unequivocally be hitting fist in a battle between them. that is NOT PIS, that is consistent with 40+ years of comics.



at one point danny said he would make him understand even if he had to beat him senseless to do it. cap also showed he could easily roll with one of danny's punches and even CAUGHT danny's punch when danny tried a SNEAK attack. even danny was shocked:

http://imageshack.us/f/809/mansion07.jpg/

all of that 'context' you say was left out is meaningless. danny couldn't even hit cap with a surprise attack.



that early version of logan has been addressed--his h2h skills have since become a far larger focus. their sparring match was quite telling imo--logan handled him quite easily in straight skill. logan has also easily dealt with shang chi and has done much better against cap. we can also compare their battles against a true superhuman in spiderman. cap did FAR better than IF against spidey. cap made spidey look like a child. or, in spidey's own words, a chump.

http://imageshack.us/f/372/spc6hl9.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/187/spc8wu5.jpg/



where you get this certainty that cap is peak human, i really have no idea. he's been depicted well above peak human for most of his career. he has caught launched torpedoes, shattered steel, held up a portion of a ckyscraper (likely at least cl10) thrown his shield with force enough to outrace a missile and sever a truck in half. he consistently moves at blur speeds, has taken punches from a po'd namor. even his perception is superhuman. note how she says he DODGES BULLETS, and his simple explanation:

http://imageshack.us/f/407/capdamanta2.jpg/

and he clearly can dodge bullets. we see the gun fired THEN he not only dodges but throws his shield. and winter solider is enormously skilled in his own right....

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3846/ca14016zs1.jpg

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6166/ca14017oe3.jpg

the thing with cap is he deflects everything with his shield. hence, we don't see him dodging bullets like dd for instance. like we don't see superman. he doesn't have to. but he's deflected everything from multiple machine guns to multiple laser fire. he is every bit (and likely more) as fast with his shield as dd is with his club. there are dozens of feats of the type i posted. cap is WELL above peak human. shield even labelled him ENHANCED human at one point. IF fist has a speed edge, it is MINIMAL. to say they are 'tiers' apart is simple ignorance.



one scan=/=consistent portrayal. where are all the corroborating scans that prove this isn't PIS?

Originally posted by Dream Stuff


Danny didn't have to BFR him. He didn't even mean to; he just forgot where the window was.
yes it was accidental, but at no time did he even come close to knocking wolverine out.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
And a healing factor wouldn't change the fact that Logan was unable to land an attack on Danny, who smacked him all around the room.


He wasent even a defined character yet or had defined powers thats the point. How can your solely arguement be a fight that was before the character had anya define power set or history? How do you not understannd that a crappy arguement?

And Wolverine almost killed an IF who beat Danny ass into the ground. Wolverine has had no trouble fight Iron Fist or any chi amper for that matter.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Oh please. A friendly sparring match in the yard is not a fight and both men admitted they were holding back.
If IF was significantly better like you claim he would have still dominated and won. He isent better thats why he did not dominate. The fact your training is irrelevant. If your significantly superior in a fight you will be significantly superior in sparing. Have you ever sparred before?

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
I think I remember another actual fight, but permit me to withdraw my "every time" comment until I can try to find it. Anyway, the one time we can prove they fought, Danny made him look like a chump without really trying.




Wolverine fought another Iron Fist who had kicked Danny ass. Wolverine then proceeded to almost kill the other iron fist by Danny on admission.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
It wasn't intentional; I just didn't know. Still, he had claws, was an X-Man, and he fought. Was he in the habit of being humiliated by weaker people at the time, or something?

He dident have a defined power set at that point. He had no back story. Which is huge, Wolverine was missing any of his MA skills and 100 years of experience. Those did not get put into his character untill his first mini. Wolverine powers were a lot different during his inception and first bunch a years in the x-men comics.

Cap solos.

Ok, since no one was giving me feats, I actually flipped through about 20 pages of respect thread.

I admit, I was wrong about Cap. He is stronger than I thought, more durable than I thought, and indeed faster than I thought. He is above peak-human, and I'm glad to finally have evidence to know that.

That said, of all the speed feats I saw (all of them, save a few that wouldn't load), he only has one that is clearly bullet-dodging and not aim dodging. That is the single bullet he dodged from winter soldier. Nearly all of the other feats called "bullet dodging" by the people who put them up were the same "jump, tumble and outrun" that every other decent street does every issue. A lot of them were mitigated by other factors that the posters ignored. A few of them were high end enough that I would accept calling him a low-end bullet-timer, if that would settle the dispute.

He also has one of the most amazing jobber auras I've ever seen. As impressive as his strength feats are, he's constantly knocking out people who normally take shots from guys with much, much better feats.

In PISless fight, there's still no arguing that he has fewer and less impressive high-end speed feats than Danny and doesn't hit nearly as hard.

I'll address other questions directed at me soon.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Obviously to me you don't know much about Cap though as most fans have been correcting you on him. The fact that we have to point out his consistent feats of racing past DD like he's a breeze.

People keep mentioning this. Why, after I asked many times, did no one mention that it was in Frank Miller's "Born Again"? Now I can actually see it instead of relying on a description from some stranger.



I'm glad you brought this up again, because I want to address the issue of comic book lasers in general. They are NOT as fast as real lasers. If they were, every street levelers who dodges one would have lightspeed reflexes. In fact, we have no idea how fast they are. Unlike a bullet, its completely unquantifiable.



I saw a couple of feats like this. None of them were as impressive as this sounds without context. In one, the shooter's eyes were literally closed as he unloaded.



I already explained the context of that. Danny was so wounded from fighting the Wrecking Crew shortly before that he thought himself lucky to be alive. Also, both he and Cap admitted that Danny was holding back and Cap was not.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Exactly. You asked why we brought up that Steve is the next step in human evolution. Its as important as bringing up that Danny is dragon enhanced.

This turned out to be a quote from Brubaker, one of the many, many people who have written Cap over the years. It is not a canonical "fact" or feat in any sense of the words.



BP landed a few shots which failed to harm Danny in any way. Meanwhile, Danny rained down countless blows on BP that proved mostly unable to even block. BP's vibranium suit got torn to shreds and he passed out. If it wasn't for the vibranium suit or the convenient tech he used to fix Danny, BP would have died a dozen times over.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
He wasent even a defined character yet or had defined powers thats the point. How can your solely arguement be a fight that was before the character had anya define power set or history? How do you not understannd that a crappy arguement?

Because feats matter more than history. I asked if he was losing a lot of fights to people now much weaker than him? If that's true, then all you're saying is relevant. If not, its window-dressing.



Must haver missed it. Scans? Issue/page number?




This is really specious logic. There is no basis for assuming that two people holding back while fighting each other are holding back to the exact same degree. If fact, that would be a very weird coincidence.

I've sparred a lot. The better fighter doesn't always win in sparing, especially in a playful "outdoors on the lawn" kind of session. In fact, as a more skilled fighter going against some of my less skilled friends, I would hold back more because I wanted to see what they could do and had nothing to prove. I'm not trying to infer all of that into this sparring session, just saying that it doesn't count as a valid "win" if the fight isn't serious.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
This turned out to be a quote from Brubaker, one of the many, many people who have written Cap over the years. It is not a canonical "fact" or feat in any sense of the words.




Wrong. Bru got that from Cap sentinel of liberty adventures during Steve's WW2 days. You thought Bru came up with the idea....LOL Don't get me wrong he's a incredible writer but Bru statement did indeed match Cap's history.

Here's some other facts of Cap that you don't probably know.

The hand book label of Cap is Peak Human which seems to be all your going by.

The latter in cannon books have had him termed
Super human
Super Man
Super Soldier
Super Norman Human
Nearly Perfect Man
Perfect Man
Preternatural (if you don't know the meaning it means beyond man)
And of course one of my favorites from Mark Gruenwald himself:The peak of human "potential"...... which matches the next step of human evolution pretty well from the series that I earlier pointed out.

Another statement I like from the creator of the serum " a man unlike the world has never seen before."

Originally posted by Dream Stuff

BP landed a few shots which failed to harm Danny in any way. Meanwhile, Danny rained down countless blows on BP that proved mostly unable to even block. BP's vibranium suit got torn to shreds and he passed out. If it wasn't for the vibranium suit or the convenient tech he used to fix Danny, BP would have died a dozen times over.


Well obviously this shows your a bit biased no offense. Which is alright since your a Danny fan. Black Panther wasn't trying to kill Danny. Like Danny was trying to kill him.

Think about it. BP was fast enough to grab a metal trash can and dump it and trap Danny for a bit. And he was fast enough do to that.

Now imagine instead of a trash can or a tech to save Danny like he was trying. And imagine him using his more lethal weapons like vibranium claws or energy daggers.

They both were impressive but you only see the side of Danny. Clouded eyes only go so far.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Must haver missed it. Scans? Issue/page number?



Iron Fist/Wolverine issue 4


Originally posted by Dream Stuff
This is really specious logic. There is no basis for assuming that two people holding back while fighting each other are holding back to the exact same degree. If fact, that would be a very weird coincidence.

Not really at all. If your both high level fighters you natural would fight at the same intensity. It very easy to do especially for people at there levels.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff

I've sparred a lot. The better fighter doesn't always win in sparing, especially in a playful "outdoors on the lawn" kind of session.

Being out doors does not make you go less intense.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff

In fact, as a more skilled fighter going against some of my less skilled friends, I would hold back more because I wanted to see what they could do and had nothing to prove. I'm not trying to infer all of that into this sparring session, just saying that it doesn't count as a valid "win" if the fight isn't serious.

I not saying it a win in terms of normal fight. I am saying it complete disprove your crazy assumptions that iron fist is on another level then Wolverine. it would be painfully noticeable if someone was significantly better then someone else in sparing match. And it extremely easy to tell.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
P
I already explained the context of that. Danny was so wounded from fighting the Wrecking Crew shortly before that he thought himself lucky to be alive. Also, both he and Cap admitted that Danny was holding back and Cap was not.


True Danny went from holding back in the beginning which is accurate but at the end he quit holding back and used the Iron Fist Technique his most powerful strike.

Plus the strike he tried to land on Steve was not a held back attack as he stated he must try for Mistys Sake!!! IIRC then Steve caught that hit and was impressed on how Steve did it so easily.

But then again he was impressed by Cap's speed and strength. Danny commented on it as well

Might go have for to go with Cap.

I changed my mind.

IF 10/10

Originally posted by Dream Stuff




I'm glad you brought this up again, because I want to address the issue of comic book lasers in general. They are NOT as fast as real lasers. If they were, every street levelers who dodges one would have lightspeed reflexes. In fact, we have no idea how fast they are. Unlike a bullet, its completely unquantifiable.





Well if lasers don't count then neither do bullets. You argument that there slower then real lasers. Well I guess bullets job and there also slower then real bullets. That logic can apply both ways. Both types of logic must match for both otherwise then your just cherry picking what you want.

Originally posted by leonidas
really? so you must have loads of scans to back it up? you're using your single feat to highball. we don't use single scans here. we look at both combat feats and regular feats as well as history to form a general impression of the character.

Since I am new to the forum and people seemed reluctant to supply scans when I asked for them, I sort of didn't want to post to many. I thought it was not the norm, or something. Anyway, there are tons in this forum's Iron Fist respect thread and one of him parrying sub machine gun fire that I can't find again for the life of me. I have these on me at the moment.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63560350@N06/6943089221/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/63560350@N06/6945353483/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/63560350@N06/6945352985/

And one of him mauling BP, just to be thorough:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/63560350@N06/6799241348/



If being beaten up by the Wrecking Crew shortly before is meaningless to you, then I guess I guess that's that.

Spidey vs Cap in Civil War:

Jobbing, plain and simple. What stopped Pete from webbing Cap up from a distance and slinging him around like he has so many of his rogues? Why is Pete just now realizing how good of a fighter Cap is, despite personally having fought him and pointing that out several times before? If you don't see PIS there, again, I guess that's that.





C'mon, need I explain again why what other characters say in dialogue doesn't count as a feat? Especially since the person who phrased it that way isn't a bullet-timer, so couldn't have seen Cap dodge a bullet after it was fired.

Winter Solider bullet-dodge: One bullet from a pistol (relatively low speed) with a lot of time to ready himself where Cap could clearly see where Bucky was aiming and when he pulled the trigger... but since that's just me speculating, I totally count that as a valid, low-end bullet-timing feat.




A guy with Danny's high-end feats is still great deal faster than one who best is dodging a single pistol round. And its a good thing that I don't take other character's statements for evidence; if I did, Bucky's surprise would indicate that Cap didn't do that sort of thing often back in the war.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Well if lasers don't count then neither do bullets. You argument that there slower then real lasers.

Oh, come now... you're telling me you believe that all lasers/energy blasts in comics travel at light speed?

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
http://www.flickr.com/photos/63560350@N06/6943089221/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/63560350@N06/6945353483/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/63560350@N06/6945352985/


I though you were posting legit bullet time feat. Those are standard street level bullet dodge feats... which you wrote of as "aim dodging" for Cap... but they are legit bullet time feats when Iron Fist does them?

Originally posted by Daredevil1
True Danny went from holding back in the beginning which is accurate but at the end he quit holding back and used the Iron Fist Technique his most powerful strike.

Danny. Was. Nearly. Killed. Shortly. Before. Why do you think he was at 100%? He could barely even manage an iron fist with considerable strain. In those days, every time he used it, it made him weaker all around and he'd used it twice that day already. And Cap took it in the shield. Obviously Cap can take that shot in the shield. And it's not like Danny wanted to kill him. he assumed that knocking him into the wall would stop him. He was wrong, but Danny was still in no condition to win that fight.

What's stopping Danny from punching through Cap's shield and killing both Cap and Bane with one punch?

Nothing.

Originally posted by Mindset
What's stopping Danny from punching through Cap's shield and killing both Cap and Bane with one punch?

Nothing.
capts shield is.............

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
capts shield is............. getting punched in half.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I though you were posting legit bullet time feat. Those are standard street level bullet dodge feats... which you wrote of as "aim dodging" for Cap... but they are legit bullet time feats when Iron Fist does them?

I was pretty clear before that typical street aim-dodging occurs when characters have to run, jump and move quickly around their opponents to stay ahead of their aim. Is Danny doing that? Is he doing anything other than moving parts of his body out of the way, slipping between bullets by fractions of an inch? In one scan, he is basically just walking and isn't even looking at the gunman at first; his head is pointed at where the bullets whizz by him.

And he's going straight at them.

Reread the Captain American respect thread, and show me how many of his alleged "bullet dodges" don't involved him doing acrobatics and running/jumping very quickly.

Originally posted by Mindset
getting punched in half.


in your wet dreams perhaps.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
I was pretty clear before that typical street aim-dodging occurs when characters have to run, jump and move quickly around their opponents to stay ahead of their aim. Is Danny doing that? Is he doing anything other than moving parts of his body out of the way, slipping between bullets by fractions of an inch? In one scan, he is basically just walking and isn't even looking at the gunman at first; his head is pointed at where the bullets whizz by him.

And he's going straight at them.

Reread the Captain American respect thread, and show me how many of his alleged "bullet dodges" don't involved him doing acrobatics and running/jumping very quickly.

dude your clearly picking and choosing. This is getting little ridiculous.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
in your wet dreams perhaps. Don't be jealous.

What's stopping Cap from exposing the fact that Kung-Fu is a effeminate (that is pc for gaaaaaaaaaaaay), inefficient, impracticable and worthless "fighting" style and taking Iron Fist down and choking him out instantly?

Nothing.

Originally posted by Mindset
Don't be jealous.

lol

Originally posted by Mindset
What's stopping Danny from punching through Cap's shield and killing both Cap and Bane with one punch?

Nothing.

Danny can't punch through Cap's shield. Harder hitters than even current-Danny have tried and failed.

Of course, he does have an aoe and a wide-burst. As little sense as it makes, I did see Cap block and wide-burst energy attack with his shield. How!? It only covers a fraction of his body!

Who punches harder than IF?

No one, that's who.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Wrong. Bru got that from Cap sentinel of liberty adventures during Steve's WW2 days. You thought Bru came up with the idea....LOL

Why is that LOL-worthy? I got bad information and have never read Sentinel of Liberty. It still doesn't change the fact that "next step in human evolution" isn't a provable fact or a feat. Like I said, ask Magneto, the High Evolutionary, or a Celestial how they feel about that statement.




No, I'm going by my previous exposure to his feats. I've since recanted, if you'd notice. I don't read handbooks.

As for the last quote, I won't even copy/paste it, because statements from other characters don't count.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff


As for the last quote, I won't even copy/paste it, because statements from other characters don't count.
umm yes they do. You cant just make up rules.


you sound like a little kid "i dont like that so you cant use it as evidence because it contradicts my entire argument"

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
I was pretty clear before that typical street aim-dodging occurs when characters have to run, jump and move quickly around their opponents to stay ahead of their aim. Is Danny doing that? Is he doing anything other than moving parts of his body out of the way, slipping between bullets by fractions of an inch? In one scan, he is basically just walking and isn't even looking at the gunman at first; his head is pointed at where the bullets whizz by him.

And he's going straight at them.

Reread the Captain American respect thread, and show me how many of his alleged "bullet dodges" don't involved him doing acrobatics and running/jumping very quickly.

If you don't see where the character is at the time the bullet is fired, relative to where they are when they dodge the bullet, then any feat can easily be written off as aim dodging.

This is bullet time speed feat. We see where when the bullets are fired. We see where Cap is and what he is doing when the bullets are fired, and then we see him throw his shields and block the bullets. Iron Fist's only legitimate bullet time fight is the one occasion he managed to catch a bullet.

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/capitanamerica/capitan_america_velocidad_3.jpg

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
This is bullet time speed feat. We see where when the bullets are fired. We see where Cap is and what he is doing when the bullets are fired, and then we see him throw his shields and block the

That is a great feat! I don't agree with you about th IF feats: anytime you can walk straight toward your oppanent while only narrowly moving parts of your body to avoid bullets, you are above aim dodging. But I do have more more respect for cap's speed now.

Anyway, I'm embarrassed by how long I've spent on this already, so I'm off. I'll probably avoid this particular topic for a while so this conversation doesn't happen again. Nice hearing from you.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
That is a great feat! I don't agree with you about th IF feats: anytime you can walk straight toward your oppanent while only narrowly moving parts of your body to avoid bullets, you are above aim dodging. But I do have more more respect for cap's speed now.

Anyway, I'm embarrassed by how long I've spent on this already, so I'm off. I'll probably avoid this particular topic for a while so this conversation doesn't happen again. Nice hearing from you.

clap

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
umm yes they do. You cant just make up rules.


you sound like a little kid "i dont like that so you cant use it as evidence because it contradicts my entire argument"

Actually, for future reference, is there a mod ruling on this? If this is a board where anything characters say about each other is considered as valid as what we actually see on panel, then I'll accept that and consider my future arguments accordingly.

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/attachment/cassandra-cainbat-girl-and-deathstroke-vs-captain-america-and-wolverine-dc-vs-mar-17948.jpg



There is also a scan where Cap is said to move with "all the swiftness of a beam of light!" or something, but I couldn't find it.

Good thing is that scan is probably older than everyone on this board.

Isn't Cap in his early 30's at the oldest?

Originally posted by Mindset
Isn't Cap in his early 30's at the oldest?

Yes but at the time of the issue it had only been 20 years since he was frozen in WW2.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Good thing is that scan is probably older than everyone on this board.

Yeah that means Cap is only has fast as Classic Quicksilver, so only around 300mph sprint.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Oh, come now... you're telling me you believe that all lasers/energy blasts in comics travel at light speed?


Oh please are you telling me bullets don't job out in comics....LOL.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Danny. Was. Nearly. Killed. Shortly. Before. Why do you think he was at 100%? He could barely even manage an iron fist with considerable strain. In those days, every time he used it, it made him weaker all around and he'd used it twice that day already. And Cap took it in the shield. Obviously Cap can take that shot in the shield. And it's not like Danny wanted to kill him. he assumed that knocking him into the wall would stop him. He was wrong, but Danny was still in no condition to win that fight.


The fact that he could still do a powerful Iron Fist speaks that he wasn't drained to the point of no return or was helpless. I agree with you he was not 100 percent. I'm not going to deny that.

But definitely Cap had the advantage and easily caught Danny's strike like nothing.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Of the two characters in this thread only one of them has ever been attributed with the ability to "see" bullets in slow motion, and it's not Iron Fist. It might be helpful for you to have some knowledge on the respective abilities and feats of both characters before you try and make the case that one is an aim dodger, while one is a legitimate bullet timer.

To be fair Danny has caught a bullet......oh see your response later. Still not sure if I think Cap is faster.

But Bane with Danny and Cap still beats them both

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


I really wish someone would make a comprehensive Cap respect thread, so posters who are trying to get away by saying "Cap isn't displayed as better than Batman..." would be able to see how stupid they sound to people that actually read Captain America comics...

My main response to that is look at the sort of people that Cap fights on a regular basis then look at Batman...Caps enemies are a notch superior.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Since I am new to the forum and people seemed reluctant to supply scans when I asked for them, I sort of didn't want to post to many. I thought it was not the norm, or something. Anyway, there are tons in this forum's Iron Fist respect thread and one of him parrying sub machine gun fire that I can't find again for the life of me. I have these on me at the moment.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63560350@N06/6943089221/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/63560350@N06/6945353483/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/63560350@N06/6945352985/

And one of him mauling BP, just to be thorough:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/63560350@N06/6799241348/

none of those are really beyond cap. the machine gun one is very good, but again, that level is NOT the norm, but the exception, and clinging to it is highballing.



show me somewhere that it is indicated he was 'slower' because of that battle. he was strong enough to summon the fist again. AND he even tried a surprise sneak attack that cap caught effortlessly. it was plain as day that fist was fast but nothing cap couldn't handle.



yep, pretty much i guess. cap has CONSISTENTLY fought guys on spidey's level and beyond and NEVER been overwhelmed by speed or strength. if you want to label his entire history (he's fought everyone from namor to hulk, to ironman and even thor h2h) PIS that is YOUR perogative. just acknowledge that you're willfully ignoring his history by decrying 'jobber aura!!!11!' which is pretty demeaning and, tbh, is one of the clearer indications that one is 'losing' a debate. cries of PIS--unless blatantly obvious--RARELY help you in a debate. in this case i could show cap fighting MANY people on or above spidey level. that kind of consistent performance cannot be labelled PIS. sounds like people who get angry when logan fights hulk to a standstill when he has made a CAREER out of doing in bricks.



wut? she's an ELITE shield agent who has seen cap fight MANY MANY times and you don't think she can tell when he dodges a bullet? weird....

and despite that, it doesn't change thefact that cap didn't gainsay her and EXPLAINED the ability the ascribed to him. he didn't say he 'anticipates', or 'times' his dodge. he was matter of fact in his answer and said he sees bullets slower. cap doesn't lie, so the implication was clear as day--he can and does dodge bullets.







you're single feat isn't proof enough that fist is substantially faster. direct combat against each other and common opponents tell a totally different tale.

you've already admitted that you've learned some stuff, so for manning up and admitting as such. fist MAY be faster. i took umbrage at the 'tiers of difference'. i think they are peers and cap is more skilled. but i do think it is close in all respects.