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So I recently got into a debate about Superman vs Goku, and was asked to provide what I thought was the average weight Superman could lift - and I really didn't know the answer and had to think about it for a while.


So this is question to all you guys. There is obviously no right or wrong answer, there are high and low end feats, and where the middle is, is different for everyone - Basically how each person interprets the character. So please don't post feats as "evidence" for yourself or against someone else's view.

For me I still haven't decided, but around 1 million tons should not be too difficult for him on average.

The other difficulty is translating the feats into tons, but lets see where Superman stands on KMC. Who knows if we get enough opinions on here we might be able to set a precedent

He's well in to the quintillion/sextillion range if we're talking upper levels. Probably higher depending on writer.

Originally posted by -Pr-
He's well in to the quintillion/sextillion range if we're talking upper levels. Probably higher depending on writer.

Well yea, what I'm after is average though. So I'm thinking your estimate is likely over 1 billion tons on average?

Originally posted by Placidity
Well yea, what I'm after is average though. So I'm thinking your estimate is likely over 1 billion tons on average?

In terms of lifting, I don't think he really has an average tbh. But yeah, over a billion easy.

Originally posted by -Pr-
In terms of lifting, I don't think he really has an average tbh.

I disagree with that to be frank. I think if you take each showing in every comic and determine how much he lifted in each (in ones that can be quantified, and a rough scientific estimate for ones that aren't easily quantified), you could work out an average.

Now of course this is a very difficult task and beyond reasonable, but I'm just asking for each person's guess of what that would or should be. And in a way, as a supporter for Superman in the Vs debates, one would be putting something on the line by commenting on his/her opinion of their character's average strength (could be used against you). So again not an easy thing to do, practically or in terms of the estimate possibly becoming a liability in debates later on.

But I do wish someone would give it a shot! Even getting a consensus on the weight range would be nice.

I doubt you're going to be able to get a very accurate number.

As for Superman's strength like most characters in that range it can be highly dynamic, and can go up and down.

But if we're talking about what I think he is listed at. The best I can give you is he is for sure planetary, in that I bet he can lift a planet if need be.

Originally posted by Placidity
I disagree with that to be frank. I think if you take each showing in every comic and determine how much he lifted in each (in ones that can be quantified, and a rough scientific estimate for ones that aren't easily quantified), you could work out an average.

Now of course this is a very difficult task and beyond reasonable, but I'm just asking for each person's guess of what that would or should be. And in a way, as a supporter for Superman in the Vs debates, one would be putting something on the line by commenting on his/her opinion of their character's average strength (could be used against you). So again not an easy thing to do, practically or in terms of the estimate possibly becoming a liability in debates later on.

But I do wish someone would give it a shot! Even getting a consensus on the weight range would be nice.

Well you see, that's the thing: Building an average usually allows you to draw from high and low feats, and the average is usually somewhere in the middle.

The problem with Superman is that it's very rare that you actually find him failing to lift something, and then he goes and does things like move planets and push warworlds in to boomtubes.

Yeah his average comes in the terms of levels of foes he can face. But feat wise he normally just does whatever he needs to. within his powerset of course

1 billion tons is about the weight of a small mountain. (everest would weigh hundreds of trillions of tons)

1 billion tons is far too low a number for his 'average'. FAR too low.

I'm going to say in the hundreds of quintillions of tons range, just like in All-Star Superman. Though truthfully, it could be a alot higher judging by feats, since 200 quintillion tons is a lot less than the weight of the earth.

It's impossible to figure out an average weight Superman lifts, because the objects he tends to lift really don't have an average weight... His lifting feats range from lifting cars (a few tons), to airplanes (75 tons), to white dwarf stars (100 tons), to pyramids (75 million tons), to the earth itself (roughly 3,250,000,000,000,000,000 tons), to the infinite book (infinite tons.)

(I'd love to see someone average out those figures out. )

Aside from that, anyone who argues that Goku can lift more than Superman hasn't read much (if any) Superman-related material.

A white dwarf star would weigh far more than a hundred tons.

im guessing that was a typo or something.

(airplanes can be hundreds of tons btw)

Originally posted by ares834
A white dwarf star would weigh far more than a hundred tons. Not the one Superman lifted. It was a baby white dwarf that weighed exactly 100 tons.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
(airplanes can be hundreds of tons btw) Yeah, boeing 747's, and the like, weigh roughly 300 tons. He has lifted those (obviously), but I was referring to the personal aircraft he lifted in a MoS issue I read the other day... It was the the first thing that came to mind.

Originally posted by Placidity
I think if you take each showing in every comic and determine how much he lifted in each (in ones that can be quantified, and a rough scientific estimate for ones that aren't easily quantified), you could work out an average. That is idiotic. If he lifted a ton, 10 tons and finally 100 tons, it doesn't mean that on average he is able to lift only around 37 tons, when the first two objects he lifts are something that are not even close to straining him. That's about as dumb as saying that since he fights both Toyman and Mongul, his average is somewhere in-between them, so he wouldn't be able to take on Mongul on average.

Even John Byrne had him capable of lifting mountains, and there likely isn't a post Crisis writer who would think of him any less than that.

If you want to make an average, you can do it on a writer-to-writer basis and aproximate where his upper limit would be on each portrayal, but not on some asinine "here he lifted x, here y, here z, let's make the mean!".

Class 100 vin


No, as a general rule you can say. Superman lifts always the double amount of WBH limit.

As an "average," I would simply place Superman in the Teraton Class (anywhere from 1 trillion to 999 trillion tons).

As a reporter, Clark lifts a lot of pencils, pens, notepads and the like. That's gotta bring his average way down mmm

Originally posted by Cogito
As a reporter, Clark lifts a lot of pencils, pens, notepads and the like. That's gotta bring his average way down mmm




Don't give carver ideas.
fear

When He was rebooted by Byrne.

Byrne designed his power to be basically dynamic and related to his psionics.

He did this on purpose as He knew with time other writers will take over Superman and He wanted to give them the liberty of playing with his powers.

Couple of times I have seen the reference "Superman is as powerful as he needs to be"

So the real average is "as strong or powerful as He needs to be"

His psionic powers play a bigger role than his physiology or "godly" heritage.

Sometimes I wonder if many people are aware how his psionics affect his own powers and when the phsyology part kicks in.

You obviously missed the cluster**** that was the JLA Vs Onslaught thread...

Originally posted by -Pr-
You obviously missed the cluster**** that was the JLA Vs Onslaught thread...
This is a classic of kmc

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=562513

Originally posted by -Pr-
You obviously missed the cluster**** that was the JLA Vs Onslaught thread...

Yes sadly I did and it was a real cluster****

It really doesn't matter, he has lifted infinite weight do whatever you use to get the mean, it will always be infinite weight. But superman doesn't lift infinite weight everyday so I believe on average (i agree with beinsalsa) he lifts whatever he has to, whatever he has to or whatever needs to be done.

I've gotten into this with people in the past, that his greatest lifting feats have come when he's flying. So he's using a different powerset when he's holding something in mid air; it's not a feat of strength, but an extension of the inner telekenesis that allows him to fly and hover in place.

You just have to look at the many non-flying characters who have repeatedly been able to match his strength - Darkseid, Orion, Mongul, Doomsday, Solomon Grundy - none of whom have strength feats on the books as dramatic as Superman's. That they are in his strength class comes right from DC editorial and from character statements made through the decades.

The alleged planet moving feats of years past - it can't happen unless he's flying; he can't stand on one planet and push another. Hence, different powerset at work.

His greatest lifting feats come when He is flying?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/INSANE%20FEATS/BLACK%20HOLES/th_JLA077LISTSMINIATUREBLACKHOLE.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/INSANE%20FEATS/Lifts%20the%20infinite%20book/th_SupermanBeyond01LIFTSABOOKWITHINFINITEPAGES2.jpg,

http://s1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/?action=view&current=AC764HITTINGTHEMOONWHILELOOSINGPOWERS.jpg

I don't see him flying in any of those

Originally posted by roughrider
I've gotten into this with people in the past, that his greatest lifting feats have come when he's flying. So he's using a different powerset when he's holding something in mid air; it's not a feat of strength, but an extension of the inner telekenesis that allows him to fly and hover in place.

You just have to look at the many non-flying characters who have repeatedly been able to match his strength - Darkseid, Orion, Mongul, Doomsday, Solomon Grundy - none of whom have strength feats on the books as dramatic as Superman's. That they are in his strength class comes right from DC editorial and from character statements made through the decades.

The alleged planet moving feats of years past - it can't happen unless he's flying; he can't stand on one planet and push another. Hence, different powerset at work.

That's not really definitive proof, tbh.

Originally posted by -Pr-
He's well in to the quintillion/sextillion range if we're talking upper levels. Probably higher depending on writer. If He Is In The Sextillion Range That Means He Is Just As Good Enough To Lift One Planet(Refering To Our Own Planet Which Weighs 6.6 Sextillion As I Heard) When Clearly Supermam Can Lift More....

Originally posted by roughrider
I've gotten into this with people in the past, that his greatest lifting feats have come when he's flying. So he's using a different powerset when he's holding something in mid air; it's not a feat of strength, but an extension of the inner telekenesis that allows him to fly and hover in place.

You just have to look at the many non-flying characters who have repeatedly been able to match his strength - Darkseid, Orion, Mongul, Doomsday, Solomon Grundy - none of whom have strength feats on the books as dramatic as Superman's. That they are in his strength class comes right from DC editorial and from character statements made through the decades.

The alleged planet moving feats of years past - it can't happen unless he's flying; he can't stand on one planet and push another. Hence, different powerset at work.

This was how Byrne portrayed it. Don't know if anybody else actually followed it. The way you're doing this feels like you're grasping at straws to say Superman isn't really as strong as he is.

Salsa already pointed-out two massive feats of strength(both that put moving a planet to shame) that he was NOT flying when he did them, so I won't go on that. The other serious flaw in your argument is bringing-up non-flying characters. So what that they've matched him in strength despite not having strength feats like his? None of them really even HAVE feats of strength. The only major one I can think for any of them is Darksied ripping-apart that planetoid as a side-effect of his fight with Superman. All of them but Solomon Grundy(since he's been at different power levels pretty much every time he comes back from "death" are all consistently stronger than Wonder Woman, despite they don't have feats to match her's, and she just flies through magick, you can't make an argument of "telekinesis" here. Kurse and Mangog are stronger than Thor, but what feats of strength does they have to compare? I could be wrong, but to my knowledge, the answer is "none."

Originally posted by Galan007
to the earth itself (roughly 3,250,000,000,000,000,000 tons)
The problem with that is that you're not working against the earth's gravity when you move it.

The centrifugal force of the earth orbiting the sun is cancelled out by the sun's gravity on the earth, so it's in balance. If you were to increase the earth's speed then the shape of the orbit around the sun would become more and more elliptical until it reaches a point and starts spiraling away.

I could make a calculation on it if there's an interest, and explain exactly how much energy would be required before that occurs. It's basic Newtonian mechanics.

Originally posted by Galan007
to the infinite book (infinite tons.)
Wasn't that with the help of Captain Marvel? Ultraman managed to lift it alone, though.

Originally posted by Astner
The centrifugal force of the earth orbiting the sun is cancelled out by the sun's gravity on the earth, so it's in balance. If you were to increase the earth's speed then the shape of the orbit around the sun would become more and more elliptical until it reaches a point and starts spiraling away.

I could make a calculation on it if there's an interest, and explain exactly how much energy would be required before that occurs. It's basic Newtonian mechanics.
Nevermind I just checked the numbers, you can't break the orbit unless you have an interference of external gravitational fields. Then again, if you speed it up or slow it down to where the ellipsis goes through the sun then that should be enough. Slowing it down would be the most energy efficient.

Are there many instances where Superman was unable to lift something and it wasn't do to lack of power but instead some outside factor like being weakened?

Seems he's as strong as he needs to be for the given occasion, majority of the time.

Originally posted by Robtard
Are there many instances where Superman was unable to lift something and it wasn't do to lack of power but instead some outside factor like being weakened?

Seems he's as strong as he needs to be for the given occasion, majority of the time.
That's the correct answer. He's as strong as the story needs him to be.

Originally posted by Astner
Wasn't that with the help of Captain Marvel? Ultraman managed to lift it alone, though.

The scene didn't show Superman REQUIRED Captain Marvel's help as much as he wasn't sure it was possible to even lift it, and had Cap help him. If Ultraman lifted it on his own, I'm sure Superman can.

Originally posted by Robtard
Are there many instances where Superman was unable to lift something and it wasn't do to lack of power but instead some outside factor like being weakened?

Not that I'm aware of.

Originally posted by Robtard
Seems he's as strong as he needs to be for the given occasion, majority of the time.

Pretty much.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's the correct answer. He's as strong as the story needs him to be.

Originally posted by Astner
Wasn't that with the help of Captain Marvel? Half of infinity is still infinity.

Originally posted by Galan007
Half of infinity is still infinity.

thumbs_up

Originally posted by Galan007
Half of infinity is still infinity.
If you don't account for order there's no difference, however if you do then ω > ω/2. That said, ω/2 is still infinite so you're technically right.

Then again it all boils down to the axiomatic. Check out cardinal numbers and ordinal numbers for reference.

That said,

Originally posted by Astner
If you don't account for order there's no difference, however if you do then ω > ω/2. That said, ω/2 is still infinite so you're technically right.

Then again it all boils down to the axiomatic. Check out cardinal numbers and ordinal numbers for reference.

That said, All I know is that those symbols looks like ballsacks.

Last issue of Superman he benched the weight of the earth for 5 days.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14060044

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14060045

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14060050

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Source: Superman #13, Volume 3
Writer: Scott Lobdell
Penciller: Kenneth Rockafort
Date: October 2012
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I just got #13 yesterday. Context suggests Earth-benching is a legit feat (no yeah-but's). However, unless there's further important context in later issues, I already see potential "problems" in this issue (ie, "He can do that, but had trouble with this?"

That really is a killer feat, though: puts any previous planet-pushing (including pre-crisis) to shame.