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http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/27444/1124993-action_comics__886___page_8_large.jpg

vs

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/83789/1893822-odin_025_large.jpg

Rao

Odin. What has Rao done? Who has he fought and beat? Odin has 40+ years of showings and on average he's a beast.

Rao, according to Kryptonian lore, is the primary "Creator" type deity responsible for breathing life into the universe and what not. That's impressive, but deities, especially the heads of pantheons, generally are attributed various creation type feats to conincide with their respective lore and legend.

I have no issues if Rao is above Odin (even significantly), but it's a difficult thing to gauge if you base it solely off of Rao's role in Kryptonian theology and his supposed role in creation.

It's a conversation/line of dialog worth having in this case.

He also created Nightwing and Flamebird. 2 VERY powerful beings.

Odin likewise helped sire Thor and has created extremely powerful beings/weapons.

Rao's a difficult character to gauge and this may as well fall into an implied power as opposed to explicit power showing sort of thing.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Rao, according to Kryptonian lore, is the primary "Creator" type deity responsible for breathing life into the universe and what not. That's impressive, but deities, especially the heads of pantheons, generally are attributed various creation type feats to conincide with their respective lore and legend.

I have no issues if Rao is above Odin (even significantly), but it's a difficult thing to gauge if you base it solely off of Rao's role in Kryptonian theology and his supposed role in creation.

It's a conversation/line of dialog worth having in this case.

So he's done nothing except "CLAIMED" he created the universe? That's basically par for the course when it comes to gods bragging. Was this statement verified by a third party? Because if it's just him saying this based on Kryptonian theology/religion, it's full of sh|t.

No doubt. But when the Builder created a version of Rao, Nightwing was the only one capable of destroying it. The rest of the heroes of earth: Alan Scott, Wonder Woman, Superman, etc... Couldn't even dent it.

Originally posted by zopzop
So he's done nothing except "CLAIMED" he created the universe? That's basically par for the course when it comes to gods bragging. Was this statement verified by a third party? Because if it's just him saying this based on Kryptonian theology/religion, it's full of sh|t.

Zop Zop, please shut up and read a comic for once.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Zop Zop, please shut up and read a comic for once. Don't be rude.

Originally posted by zopzop
So he's done nothing except "CLAIMED" he created the universe? That's basically par for the course when it comes to gods bragging. Was this statement verified by a third party? Because if it's just him saying this based on Kryptonian theology/religion, it's full of sh|t.

Originally posted by Galan007
Creating the universe with a "small fraction" of his power:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11494092_rao1.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11494093_rao2.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11494094_rao3.jpg

(thanks to Galan for the scans)

Nightwing (Chris) watched Rao's creationism/origin myth unfold before him as did we the readers. Likewise, we've seen the origin of the universe as according to various god and godlike beings before half a dozen times in Marvel and DC. Odin and Bor claim to have made humanity and the universe to say nothing of the other pantheons in comics so it's really not wise to take such claims even when shown at face value.

Rao was in a Sandman spinoff and the Endless considered him powerful

Originally posted by Prep-Man
No doubt. But when the Builder created a version of Rao, Nightwing was the only one capable of destroying it. The rest of the heroes of earth: Alan Scott, Wonder Woman, Superman, etc... Couldn't even dent it.

Alan Scott and Wonder Woman both contributed to its destruction, though.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Rao was in a Sandman spinoff and the Endless considered him powerful

What issue was this?

I forget the title but it also featured the original Despair of the Endless and the ancestors of the Guardians of Oa

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
(thanks to Galan for the scans)

Nightwing (Chris) watched Rao's creationism/origin myth unfold before him as did we the readers. Likewise, we've seen the origin of the universe as according to various god and godlike beings before half a dozen times in Marvel and DC. Odin and Bor claim to have made humanity and the universe to say nothing of the other pantheons in comics so it's really not wise to take such claims even when shown at face value.

So basically it's all talk? I'm going with the confirmed galaxy buster and high skyfather level being for the win : Odin.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Alan Scott and Wonder Woman both contributed to its destruction, though.

I remember them not having too much effect. Wasn't Nightwing the one who absorbed it's heart and really put it down? Didn't he sacrifice his life or something?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I forget the title but it also featured the original Despair of the Endless and the ancestors of the Guardians of Oa

Ancestor of the Guardians? Who was that?

Anyway, Rao was called a super god or something. Seeing as he created Nightwing and Flamebird.

The Living Tribunal deemed Odin powerful/essential enough to note his death's passing to say nothing of the many other cosmic beings who did the same. And Odin has has repertoire of feats to fall back on as well outside of statements and how he's viewed in the grand scheme of things.

It's not all that clear cut one way or the other, imo.

Originally posted by zopzop
So basically it's all talk? I'm going with the confirmed galaxy buster and high skyfather level being for the win : Odin.

Certainly your prerogative to do so.

I think Rao is powerful by default, but just how powerful and how he stands against someone like Odin is what we should be trying to figure out.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I remember them not having too much effect. Wasn't Nightwing the one who absorbed it's heart and really put it down? Didn't he sacrifice his life or something?

http://i42.tinypic.com/2vnlyec.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/29blgi.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/5x3eb6.jpg

Those were the only scans I could readily find showcasing the Rao Simulacrum.

More of a distraction, I think. If Nightwing and Flamebird weren't there, I think the heroes would have zero chance.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Ancestor of the Guardians? Who was that?

I don't know her name but she was this girl with the same color skin and hair as the Guardians (except taller) and she was explaining to the Endless how her people were just learning how to materialize the green energy of willpower (this issue took place billions of years in the past).

Originally posted by Prep-Man
More of a distraction, I think. If Nightwing and Flamebird weren't there, I think the heroes would have zero chance.

Why was Rao in the comic in the first place? Was the Endless explaining the universe or something?

I found the name if the issue, it was The Sandman: Endless Nights, Dream's story: Heart of a Star.

The Endless were having a meeting with various aliens, gods, and personifications of astronomical phenomena and dimensions. The first Despair made a suggestion to Rao that he should eventually create life on a planet, then blow it up and leave only one survivor, because that would lead to despair. Rao, being a dick, agreed.

Originally posted by Endless Mike I found the name if the issue, it was The Sandman: Endless Nights, Dream's story: Heart of a Star. The Endless were having a meeting with various aliens, gods, and personifications of astronomical phenomena and dimensions. The first Despair made a suggestion to Rao that he should eventually create life on a planet, then blow it up and leave only one survivor, because that would lead to despair. Rao, being a dick, agreed.

lol wow. well at least dc is carrying on with rao creating life and all.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Rao was in a Sandman spinoff and the Endless considered him powerful

Nearly forgot about that. Hope they do something like that again for the 20th anniversary of The Sandman. Maybe we can finally get Sandman 0 as I believe thats what they call it.

Rao absolutely wins.

Rao wins.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I found the name if the issue, it was The Sandman: Endless Nights, Dream's story: Heart of a Star.

The Endless were having a meeting with various aliens, gods, and personifications of astronomical phenomena and dimensions. The first Despair made a suggestion to Rao that he should eventually create life on a planet, then blow it up and leave only one survivor, because that would lead to despair. Rao, being a dick, agreed.

So Rao is a dick.

That explains so much about Superman..

Originally posted by cdtm
So Rao is a dick.

That explains so much about Superman..

Superman: Don't worry Jimmy I'll be your father despite the fact that you are a full grown man.... (sets expectations to kryptonian)....

If Rao is anywhere near as powerful as Superman, then he sings Odin out of existence.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
If Rao is anywhere near as powerful as Superman, then he sings Odin out of existence.

Rao invented singing

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
If Rao is anywhere near as powerful as Superman, then he sings Odin out of existence.
I'm glad you see the truth now.
ermmnone

Originally posted by Galan007
Rao absolutely wins.
Based on what my friend? I know nothing about him and his feats so I'm looking for a little summary on how powerful.

Scans were posted on the first page. Per Kryptonian lore, Rao created the universe.

Odin definitely wins.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Odin definitely wins.

Ants>odin.
According to you.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
lol wow. well at least dc is carrying on with rao creating life and all.

Context totally matters. The Rao depicted in that story was the personification of Krypton's star. He was older and more respected than Earth's son, Sol, but certainly not the all-powerful universe builder that religious Kryptonians believe in. As such, it should be unclear at best whether or not they are to be considered the same character.

Originally posted by Galan007
Scans were posted on the first page. Per Kryptonian lore, Rao created the universe.

This is the key point, I think. We we speak of Rao, are we speaking of a fictional character, someone we actually see in comics, or of a second-order fictional character, one about whom fictional characters create fictions?

In other words, do we spot Rao all of his fictional feats from Kryptonian mythology, even though we have no reason to believe Kryptonian religion is "true?" Or, do we call it "heresay?"

That's a good question. Your mileage may vary.

Rao appeared in a vision to the characters to say that and he has actually appeared as a character in the DC universe

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
This is the key point, I think. We we speak of Rao, are we speaking of a fictional character, someone we actually see in comics, or of a second-order fictional character, one about whom fictional characters create fictions?

In other words, do we spot Rao all of his fictional feats from Kryptonian mythology, even though we have no reason to believe Kryptonian religion is "true?" Or, do we call it "heresay?"

Well, Flamebird, Nightwing, and the Inventor are real enough, and all three seem to believe this Rao is an actual being, and have memories of Rao's creation moments...

Can't think of why abstract beings would lie about that..

Originally posted by cdtm
Well, Flamebird, Nightwing, and the Inventor are real enough, and all three seem to believe this Rao is an actual being, and have memories of Rao's creation moments...

Can't think of why abstract beings would lie about that..

As another poster already pointed out, gods from different mythologies regularly give different accounts of cosmic history. In DC/Vertigo especially there is a sort of "relativism" at play.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
http://i42.tinypic.com/2vnlyec.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/29blgi.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/5x3eb6.jpg

Those were the only scans I could readily find showcasing the Rao Simulacrum. Originally posted by abhilegend

Ants>odin.
According to you. An army>>>the beings who brought Rao down. Who has Rao defeated which makes you think he wins ?

And just to be fair, that was a construct of Rao, not Rao himself.

Cythonna, the ice goddess/demoness, battled Rao, and is likely one of the closest peers of his we can readily find.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And just to be fair, that was a construct of Rao, not Rao himself.

Cythonna, the ice goddess/demoness, battled Rao, and is likely one of the closest peers of his we can readily find. Rao tbh seems like a Phantom Stranger like character. Very little to anything anyone can find in way of battle scans but people want to see he can beat Odin who has many impressive feats under his name.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Rao tbh seems like a Phantom Stranger like character. Very little to anything anyone can find in way of battle scans but people want to see he can beat Odin who has many impressive feats under his name.

Personally, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's a skyfather-ish level being (he was literally called that once, too) and take the Kryptonian lore/legend with a grain of salt, as I would with the Asgardians or Olympians claiming to have created the universe or a large part of it.

It's still really hazy and open to interpretation one way or the other, imo.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Personally, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's a skyfather-ish level being (he was literally called that once, too) and take the Kryptonian lore/legend with a grain of salt, as I would with the Asgardians or Olympians claiming to have created the universe or a large part of it.

It's still really hazy and open to interpretation one way or the other, imo. It seems like we don't know enough about him though. Taking on Odin is serious business. Odin has hype and really impressive feats. There's a reason he's the premiere skyfather in all of comics.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It seems like we don't know enough about him though. Taking on Odin is serious business. Odin has hype and really impressive feats. There's a reason he's the premiere skyfather in all of comics.

True enough, but some characters you have to take things with a little faith in order to debate them, imo. Rao could be anywhere from a skyfather to elder god type character, but we can be fairly certain he'd beat the crap out of Superman. It's not entirely unreasonably to have your stance though.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
True enough, but some characters you have to take things with a little faith in order to debate them, imo. Rao could be anywhere from a skyfather to elder god type character, but we can be fairly certain he'd beat the crap out of Superman. It's not entirely unreasonably to have your stance though. I really wish you'd lose it and become unreasonable more often.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
True enough, but some characters you have to take things with a little faith in order to debate them, imo. Rao could be anywhere from a skyfather to elder god type character, but we can be fairly certain he'd beat the crap out of Superman. It's not entirely unreasonably to have your stance though.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I really wish you'd lose it and become unreasonable more often.

Well, I just got challenged to a "Loser Leaves KMC" battlezone, so who knows? baka

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Well, I just got challenged to a "Loser Leaves KMC" battlezone, so who knows? baka

With whom?

Nihilist.

Why do you even accept? He will cool down...

Did he accept?

I wouldn't. Those stips are stupid.

Eh, I don't mind repping Doom against Apocalypse, though the stips are pretty stupid. I assume he'll calm down in a few or something and it will blow over in the end.

Originally posted by Galan007
Scans were posted on the first page. Per Kryptonian lore, Rao created the universe. Every religion has their own creation myth. Where is the irrefutable proof that Rao is the one responsible as opposed to the multitude of other deities that have made the same claim. Odin has decades of proven feats, Rao just has the rhetoric of his believers.

Because The Builder, Nightwing, and Flamebird were all created from Rao. Who was called a super god.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Because The Builder, Nightwing, and Flamebird were all created from Rao. Who was called a super god. So, didn't Odin create the Destroyer armor as well as sire several Gods including Thor and Baldur? All Gods create various lifeforms, that's why they're called Gods. However, unlike Rao Odin has feats that actually involve destroying AND creating. Being called a "Super God" by those that worship you or were created by you is hardly credible testimony. Everyone that believes in any religion would say the same thing about their deity.

And Rao created it with just a fraction of his power. It would be interesting, IMO.

In DC, all of those gods created it, and they all did it individually. All of the stories are true, in different metaphysical levels