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Superman & Martian Manhunter

Vs

Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) & Flash (Wally)

Vs

Wonder Woman & Supergirl

Team one wins, Team two isn't far behind, the Woman get dominated

I'm gonna say team 1 wins.

I think they have the best shot but with 3 teams on the battlefield it's always hard to to pick a winner.

Can mm mindrape flash or are flash's thoughts too fast for mm? Can fash imp mm a couple of hundred times before mm has a chance to leave the ground or go intangible?

Originally posted by nwg202
Can mm mindrape flash or are flash's thoughts too fast for mm? Can fash imp mm a couple of hundred times before mm has a chance to leave the ground or go intangible?

Well, on paper, the Flash is faster than MM - not by much, but its there.

HOWEVER:

In Superman/Batman, Green Lantern (Stewart) was faster to react to Superman's attacks. Also, in the JLA, MM has shown that he can move 'faster than thought', together with the Flash and Superman, when they went up against the En'tarans.

You could argue that its comic books, and in a forum fight, the Flash would blitz all of them, however...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, on paper, the Flash is faster than MM - not by much, but its there.

HOWEVER:

In Superman/Batman, Green Lantern (Stewart) was faster to react to Superman's attacks. Also, in the JLA, MM has shown that he can move 'faster than thought', together with the Flash and Superman, when they went up against the En'tarans.

You could argue that its comic books, and in a forum fight, the Flash would blitz all of them, however...

Yeah, i just remembered flash saying he could have hit zum a couple times (forgot if it was a couple of times or a couple of hundred or thousand) but said one imp would be good enough. flash lent supes some speed to beat the zeta beam and get the girl right?

Don't know how to treat flash in forum fights.....overpowered sob...

Originally posted by nwg202
Yeah, i just remembered flash saying he could have hit zum a couple times (forgot if it was a couple of times or a couple of hundred or thousand) but said one imp would be good enough. flash lent supes some speed to beat the zeta beam and get the girl right?

Don't know how to treat flash in forum fights.....overpowered sob...

Nah, he lent it to Wonder Woman (who was Hippolyta at the time, not Diana).

Originally posted by nwg202
Yeah, i just remembered flash saying he could have hit zum a couple times (forgot if it was a couple of times or a couple of hundred or thousand) but said one imp would be good enough. flash lent supes some speed to beat the zeta beam and get the girl right?

Don't know how to treat flash in forum fights.....overpowered sob...
Superman has caught flash before though and IMPs only work at lightspeed in theory. Flash has never used a FTL IMP and Kal is fast enough to intercept flash if he tries to IMP him. He can also catch flash even if he is vibrating

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/INSANE%20FEATS/CATCHES%20THE%20FLASH/th_TITANS010HOLDSTHEFLASH.jpg http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/INSANE%20FEATS/CATCHES%20THE%20FLASH/th_TITANS010HOLDSTHEFLASH2.jpg http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/INSANE%20FEATS/CATCHES%20THE%20FLASH/th_TITANS010HOLDSTHEFLASH3.jpg

Team 1 gets the win.

Team 2

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Team 2

Team 2 every time. I don't see any way that either of the other teams could take Flash/GL.

Team one, by a lot.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Team one, by a lot.

No, here's how I see this thing going down... GL uses the ring to protect team 2 against TP. No one is going to speed blitz Hal with Wally right there. Hal creates kryptonite and takes out the Super on either team. Now it's 2v1. Team 2 wins.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Team 2

Team 4















































































Batman with some days of prep.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Team 2 every time. I don't see any way that either of the other teams could take Flash/GL.

Originally posted by Odekahn
No, here's how I see this thing going down... GL uses the ring to protect team 2 against TP. No one is going to speed blitz Hal with Wally right there. Hal creates kryptonite and takes out the Super on either team. Now it's 2v1. Team 2 wins.

It would depend on how Superman's kryptonite "weakness" is being portrayed. He's fought on an entire planet of he stuff. And Superman's broken through GL shields with his fists. He takes out Hal's shields and MMH ends the fight quickly. Also MMH and Superman will be coordinated thanks to J'onn's telepathy. I think Superman is clearly superior to either person on team 2, and MMH is more powerful than GL (IMO), although I'd give Flash the edge over J'onn. Team one has so many options though, and I haven't gotten to intangibility...

I can see anything happen since they all know each other.

MM shape shifts into other members, telepathy, invisibility. GL ring notifies Hal of eminent butt-rape and unlocks lethal force, employs red light and k-nite against the Tonians. WW wraps them up. Flash...well Flash runs about and starts 'Rogue-Tanking' these chumps. Tonians go tactical.

Batman wins.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
It would depend on how Superman's kryptonite "weakness" is being portrayed. He's fought on an entire planet of he stuff. And Superman's broken through GL shields with his fists. He takes out Hal's shields and MMH ends the fight quickly. Also MMH and Superman will be coordinated thanks to J'onn's telepathy. I think Superman is clearly superior to either person on team 2, and MMH is more powerful than GL (IMO), although I'd give Flash the edge over J'onn. Team one has so many options though, and I haven't gotten to intangibility...

1. We can't say for sure but I would assume it's how it affects him on average. And no matter, it would be enough to weaken him. I think Hal would put up a good fight without it, add it in and I think he'd make quick work of Superman. I believe that Hal can do anything that Kyle would be able to do, he could create a Superman made of kryptonite to fight along side him in the same way Kyle created an entire Justice League. Hal could fire a kryptonite gatlin gun at Superman. The possibilities are endless.

2. Who says it has to be GREEN kryptonite? Sure it may be green in color, but its effect could be that of red or whatever color.

3. What's Flash doing in your scenario?? I'm pretty sure He's not going to just be standing around...

Team 2 for me unless Flash is succumbing to Superman's alpha male/flagship character aura.

Originally posted by Odekahn
1. We can't say for sure but I would assume it's how it affects him on average. And no matter, it would be enough to weaken him. I think Hal would put up a good fight without it, add it in and I think he'd make quick work of Superman. I believe that Hal can do anything that Kyle would be able to do, he could create a Superman made of kryptonite to fight along side him in the same way Kyle created an entire Justice League. Hal could fire a kryptonite gatlin gun at Superman. The possibilities are endless.

2. Who says it has to be GREEN kryptonite? Sure it may be green in color, but its effect could be that of red or whatever color.

3. What's Flash doing in your scenario?? I'm pretty sure He's not going to just be standing around...

1. Hal COULD do that, but you're also assuming he's shielding the team from MMH's telepathy. That's gonna be taking up a lot of energy and willpower. And like I said, Superman has a good record of smashing through GL constructs. Also, keep in mind, Superman knows what Hal can do. Right when the bell rings he might decide to blitz him right off the bat before any shields go up, or Hal can do anything. And yeah, the Flash is there, but he has to contend with two speedsters at once, and keep in mind MMH is probably telepathically coordinating their efforts. He could get right into Flash's mind.

2. True.

3. The Flash is clearly faster than Superman, but like I said, he can't deal with Superman and J'onn at once.

The ring is much more versatile than simply creating green constructs. For example, you said Superman might blitz him before he can create a shield - but it creates instant shields even before the user is aware of it. John had to send his ring light years away when he was about to kill himself - simply because if it had been in the vicinity it would have created a shield to protect him. GL's (outside of cannon fodder) get a "second life" power up basically. The ring can also be told to auto-fire on beings going faster than say Mach 1 so that the user doesn't have to focus on that. This can all be done without verbally telling the ring anything. And these are just simple commands that the user can give the ring - it can do much more complicated things such as teleport, time stop, molecular re-arrangement, create real individuals with real powers (Kyle created real beings with the Speed-Force, a Daxamite, etc), change their own DNA to grant them internal powers, etc.

Basically, if I had a GL ring and you had Superman's powers and we were both operating at the same level as Superman or Hal in terms of how to use the power - I can guarantee you that you won't win.

With that said, I still back Flash/GL due to GL's versatility and Flash's almost unstoppable bag of tricks. Outside of Justice League books (where they have to pander to the S-Shield and Batkick) these guys are much more powerful. Speed steal (Flash) + time stop (Hal) means no one is doing anything to them.

Oh and

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/f2e10a70.jpg

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Except that scan is the beginning of Hal describing his plan which is then actually performed by the "good side of Hal imprinted on the ring" Marty/Thom.

So yes. He can. Also, the rest of the scans:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/1f32a478.jpg

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/1f32a478.jpg

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/db444e7b.jpg

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/0c899a70.jpg

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/fc994039.jpg

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/e311da70.jpg

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
1. Hal COULD do that, but you're also assuming he's shielding the team from MMH's telepathy. That's gonna be taking up a lot of energy and willpower. And like I said, Superman has a good record of smashing through GL constructs. Also, keep in mind, Superman knows what Hal can do. Right when the bell rings he might decide to blitz him right off the bat before any shields go up, or Hal can do anything. And yeah, the Flash is there, but he has to contend with two speedsters at once, and keep in mind MMH is probably telepathically coordinating their efforts. He could get right into Flash's mind.

2. True.

3. The Flash is clearly faster than Superman, but like I said, he can't deal with Superman and J'onn at once.

We don't know how much willpower it will take if any to shield from TP attacks. We don't know that the ring doesn't do it on it's own (I'm actually pretty confident that's how it works). Now it would take some if he were to try to shield Flash as well, but we don't even know that he would need to. MM might have a heck of a time trying to get into Flash's mind. And speedblitzing Hal is out because:

1. Superman moves faster than thought, but the ring can shield Hal in time. The ring has become even more sophisticalted and advanced computer like as of late.

2. Flash can lend Hal speed if need be and... possibly steal speed from team 1? (not sure on that part)

3. Flash could stand in the way if all else fails.

And Hal isn't just going to be standing there while Supes pounds away on his shields. He's going to attack, quickly and decisively. All he needs is an opening and he can take down Superman. A kryptonite bullet did a number on Superman, so again I get the image of what a gatlin gun filled with kryptonite bullets would do to him. Is MM still terrified of fire? How about a green flame special served right as the bell rings?

There's just so many ways that Team 2 can win. They have the offence and the defense to boot.

Supergirl's a weak link. WW needs a better dance partner.

Team 1 or 2. It depends on how creative Flash and GL get. The fact that it's Hal and Wally hurts a little- they don't have the experience that other GL/Flash pairings do. They're likely to fight like two solos.

I'll go with team 1.

Originally posted by Odekahn
1. We can't say for sure but I would assume it's how it affects him on average. And no matter, it would be enough to weaken him. I think Hal would put up a good fight without it, add it in and I think he'd make quick work of Superman. I believe that Hal can do anything that Kyle would be able to do, he could create a Superman made of kryptonite to fight along side him in the same way Kyle created an entire Justice League. Hal could fire a kryptonite gatlin gun at Superman. The possibilities are endless.

2. Who says it has to be GREEN kryptonite? Sure it may be green in color, but its effect could be that of red or whatever color.

3. What's Flash doing in your scenario?? I'm pretty sure He's not going to just be standing around...
GLs can't produce kryptonite post crisis. Unlike pre crisis they don't produce the actual matter, just the hard light simulation of the said matter. Of course kyle created synthetic kryptonite once, but that one instance can be attributed to PIS.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
The ring is much more versatile than simply creating green constructs. For example, you said Superman might blitz him before he can create a shield - but it creates instant shields even before the user is aware of it. John had to send his ring light years away when he was about to kill himself - simply because if it had been in the vicinity it would have created a shield to protect him. GL's (outside of cannon fodder) get a "second life" power up basically. The ring can also be told to auto-fire on beings going faster than say Mach 1 so that the user doesn't have to focus on that. This can all be done without verbally telling the ring anything. And these are just simple commands that the user can give the ring - it can do much more complicated things such as teleport, time stop, molecular re-arrangement, create real individuals with real powers (Kyle created real beings with the Speed-Force, a Daxamite, etc), change their own DNA to grant them internal powers, etc.

Basically, if I had a GL ring and you had Superman's powers and we were both operating at the same level as Superman or Hal in terms of how to use the power - I can guarantee you that you won't win.

With that said, I still back Flash/GL due to GL's versatility and Flash's almost unstoppable bag of tricks. Outside of Justice League books (where they have to pander to the S-Shield and Batkick) these guys are much more powerful. Speed steal (Flash) + time stop (Hal) means no one is doing anything to them.

Oh and

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/f2e10a70.jpg
Every character in their own book owns JLA. Nothing new, even MM has done it. If we are transplanting one gl's feat to another and taking high end showings then a future superman has stalemated entire GLC for 50 years single-handedly. The same hal jordan came all guns blazing to kill superman and couldn't even make a scratch on him. GLs are formidable but are often either horribly wanked or horribly under estimated. Oh and a random kryptonian broke auto shields of both hal and john. Oh and in the same time delation where hal suspended a fraction of nanosecond to eternity, kal was freely talking to them by his own super speed. Time stop wouldn't work.

Curious who is more powerful: KMC Flash or KMC Superman. mmm

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Curious who is more powerful: KMC Flash or KMC Superman. mmm
KMC lightspeed Thor.

KMC Thor doesn't have a heat touch which can burn someone at tempatures hotter than the sun faster than the speed of light. Nor can he punch with the force of thousands of galaxies.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
KMC Thor doesn't have a heat touch which can burn someone at tempatures hotter than the sun faster than the speed of light. Nor can he punch with the force of thousands of galaxies.
Yeah, but he can fight at lightspeed because he dig a trench once.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, but he can fight at lightspeed because he dig a trench once.

Don't know, man.

Galactic level force punches and heat touches and making black holes trump that. And speed kills and all that.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Don't know, man.

Galactic level force punches and heat touches and making black holes trump that. And speed kills and all that.
There are at least some explanations no matter how foolish they sound are there for those foolish claims. There is nothing from superman that surprises me anymore. But lightspeed thor is just hilarious.

Originally posted by abhilegend
There are at least some explanations no matter how foolish they sound are there for those foolish claims. There is nothing from superman that surprises me anymore. But lightspeed thor is just hilarious.

Not sure how lightspeed Thor is more hilarious or ludicrous than Flash punching with the force of thousand of galaxies in attoseconds. Lightspeed Thor would still be a high herald. Flash would be an abstract character the likes of which would spite thousand of high herald characters at once.

Originally posted by Q99
Supergirl's a weak link. WW needs a better dance partner.

Team 1 or 2. It depends on how creative Flash and GL get. The fact that it's Hal and Wally hurts a little- they don't have the experience that other GL/Flash pairings do. They're likely to fight like two solos.

I'll go with team 1.

Agreed.

Team Superman/MM for me, pretty solidly at that.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Not sure how lightspeed Thor is more hilarious or ludicrous than Flash punching with the force of thousand of galaxies in attoseconds. Lightspeed Thor would still be a high herald. Flash would be an abstract character the likes of which would spite thousand of high herald characters at once.
I never saw a post that said such. As for superman, this is an example of what kind of insane shit he pulls off. This is non canon but still

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/superman147a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/superman147b.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
GLs can't produce kryptonite post crisis. Unlike pre crisis they don't produce the actual matter, just the hard light simulation of the said matter. Of course kyle created synthetic kryptonite once, but that one instance can be attributed to PIS.

And the hard light simulation has the same effect on Superman. It equals the same thing. And I just wanted to post this, lol.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dNgNPwAJDI4/SEXTqBjECzI/AAAAAAAABbM/Vlx-wu9Eq-w/s1600/Tomvssupes01.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
I never saw a post that said such. As for superman, this is an example of what kind of insane shit he pulls off. This is non canon but still

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/superman147a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/superman147b.jpg

I've seen plenty, more than lightspeed Thor.

And those are cool feats, but forum Flash shits on that.

Originally posted by Odekahn
And the hard light simulation has the same effect on Superman. It equals the same thing. And I just wanted to post this, lol.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dNgNPwAJDI4/SEXTqBjECzI/AAAAAAAABbM/Vlx-wu9Eq-w/s1600/Tomvssupes01.jpg
No, it doesn't. That trick has been used once on superman before by a far better telepath than a gl and he broke out from it. That was just a very low showing for JLA.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it doesn't. That trick has been used once on superman before by a far better telepath than a gl and he broke out from it. That was just a very low showing for JLA.

So has it been stated that GLs cannot duplicate kryptonite radiation? If so, where? To be honest, that kind of goes against everything I've ever read, but maybe I'm missing something.

Originally posted by Odekahn
So has it been stated that GLs cannot duplicate kryptonite radiation? If so, where? To be honest, that kind of goes against everything I've ever read, but maybe I'm missing something.
Its been confirmed that they can't simulate the intrinsic properties of matter. They are just producing a hard light construct of that matter which isn't the real deal.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Its been confirmed that they can't simulate the intrinsic properties of matter. They are just producing a hard light construct of that matter which isn't the real deal.

By who? Where? And what comic is it that states that a GL cannot simulate radiation at the frequency of kryptonite?

Originally posted by Odekahn
By who? Where? And what comic is it that states that a GL cannot simulate radiation at the frequency of kryptonite?
Have you read any gl comic since 2005? So I have to prove a negative? The better question would be what was the last time since a lantern produced anything besides a construct and fire green beams?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Have you read any gl comic since 2005? So I have to prove a negative? The better question would be what was the last time since a lantern produced anything besides a construct and fire green beams?

Lol. Yes, I've read many a GL comic since 2005. But you aren't answering my question. I want to know if it's something that has any backing or if you're just assuming.

Originally posted by Odekahn
So has it been stated that GLs cannot duplicate kryptonite radiation? If so, where? To be honest, that kind of goes against everything I've ever read, but maybe I'm missing something.


Rather, they can, but it's very hard. In the Superman storyline when he was influenced to try and take over with Superman robots, Kyle Rayner needed mental help from J'onn J'onzz because it was so complex and difficult to make.

Originally posted by Q99
Rather, they can, but it's very hard. In the Superman storyline when he was influenced to try and take over with Superman robots, Kyle Rayner needed mental help from J'onn J'onzz because it was so complex and difficult to make.

But that shows that the ring is capable of such. The ring knows everything the guardians know and surely the guardians know the kryptonite compound properties. MM put in Kyle's head to do it, but he wouldn't have to put it in Hal's head. Hal has always been both smarter and a better ring slinger imo. He'd will it and it would come into being. As I've stated, the ring itself has become MUCH more than it has been in the past. It's a sophisticated computer capable of performing actions that its wearer wishes.

Team 1 or 2, imo. Probably team 2, though.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Lol. Yes, I've read many a GL comic since 2005. But you aren't answering my question. I want to know if it's something that has any backing or if you're just assuming.
Here you go

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_JLASecretFiles01-30.jpg

If hal could make kryptonite as easily as you claim then he wouldn't have to make such complicated plans for superman in GL:legacy or he would've created it in their last three fights which he didn't. Heck, new krypton would've been easily subdued if two elite green lantern could produce a very big chunk of kryptonite.Originally posted by Odekahn
But that shows that the ring is capable of such. The ring knows everything the guardians know and surely the guardians know the kryptonite compound properties. MM put in Kyle's head to do it, but he wouldn't have to put it in Hal's head. Hal has always been both smarter and a better ring slinger imo. He'd will it and it would come into being. As I've stated, the ring itself has become MUCH more than it has been in the past. It's a sophisticated computer capable of performing actions that its wearer wishes.

No, that's an anomaly and can be attributed to PIS. Speculation at its best. Hal has certainly never been shown to have the knowledge of how to create kryptonite AFAIK.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Here you go

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_JLASecretFiles01-30.jpg

If hal could make kryptonite as easily as you claim then he wouldn't have to make such complicated plans for superman in GL:legacy or he would've created it in their last three fights which he didn't. Heck, new krypton would've been easily subdued if two elite green lantern could produce a very big chunk of kryptonite.

No, that's an anomaly and can be attributed to PIS. Speculation at its best. Hal has certainly never been shown to have the knowledge of how to create kryptonite AFAIK.

The ring would/should, though.

Originally posted by -Pr-
The ring would/should, though.
No it wouldn't. Hard light images and all that stuff.sneer

Originally posted by abhilegend
No it wouldn't. Hard light images and all that stuff.sneer

Huh?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Huh?
The ring doesn't create the actual matter, it just produces the hard light images of the thing that bearer visualizes in his/her mind. They don't have the actual intrinsic properties of the matter which they resemble.

Originally posted by abhilegend
The ring doesn't create the actual matter, it just produces the hard light images of the thing that bearer visualizes in his/her mind. They don't have the actual intrinsic properties of the matter which they resemble.

Says who?

Rings can and have manipulated matter.

What's this supposed to prove?



Or maybe he wasn't trying to kill Superman... and if GL did make it, there wouldn't even be a fight which can suck if you're trying to tell a story. Same reason Flash doesn't destroy his foes in a single panel.



How is it PIS? Hal has done it before, regardless if it was pre crisis or not... It's not a one time thing and Kyle's showing just proves that it can be done post crisis too. You are the one speculating that GLs cannot do it, and there's more proof that's actually on panel that it can be done no matter if you personally believe it to be PIS or not.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Says who?

Rings can and have manipulated matter.
Says the scans I produced and if you don't believe it here is superman blue telling the same thing

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_JLASecretFiles01-26.jpg

Post crisis and under geoff johns?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Says the scans I produced and if you don't believe it here is superman blue telling the same thing

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_JLASecretFiles01-26.jpg

Post crisis and under geoff johns?

Green Lanterns actually affecting matter on a molecular level would beg to differ.

post crisis yes, under johns, no. but then again, he's only been the writer since what, 2004?

Originally posted by Odekahn
Or maybe he wasn't trying to kill Superman... and if GL did, there wouldn't even be a fight which can suck if you're trying to tell a storyl. Same reason Flash doesn't destroy his foes in a single panel.

Or maybe he can't produce it anyway. I don't have to prove a negative that "Prove that hal can't create kryptonite". Its your job to provide proof that he can.





Superman has sneezed away a solar system before crisis and he is the same guy as shown after Infinite crisis. Prove that he can't sneeze away a solar system away post crisis. Its PIS because the ring constructs are just light images and doesn't have the intrinsic properties of the matter they resemble. Even if we believe that is true which its not then its kyle doing it with mental instructions of J'onn and as shown in JLA: New Maps of hell he forgets such implants soon after, it isn't usable for normal gls.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman has sneezed away a solar system before crisis and he is the same guy as shown after Infinite crisis.

Huh?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Green Lanterns actually affecting matter on a molecular level would beg to differ.

post crisis yes, under johns, no. but then again, he's only been the writer since what, 2004?
Heat vision affects matter on a molecular level too, that makes superman a matter-manipulator?

When? 8 years is a long time to affect some comic character's overall performance. If we go by that route can we use T-vo here?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Huh?
He remembers his legion adventures exactly as they happened before crisis.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Heat vision affects matter on a molecular level too, that makes superman a matter-manipulator?

When? 8 years is a long time to affect some comic character's overall performance. If we go by that route can we use T-vo here?

Yes, just on a very small scale. A scale much smaller than that of a Green Lantern.

T-vo is different, in that writers have actively said they aren't touching it anymore. You can still use it, but nobody will really take you seriously.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He remembers his legion adventures exactly as they happened before crisis.

It makes those individual instances canon, not his entire pre-crisis library.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Heat vision affects matter on a molecular level too, that makes superman a matter-manipulator?

When? 8 years is a long time to affect some comic character's overall performance. If we go by that route can we use T-vo here?

We certainly use Flash's IMP so....

Team 2

Originally posted by -Pr-
Yes, just on a very small scale. A scale much smaller than that of a Green Lantern.

T-vo is different, in that writers have actively said they aren't touching it anymore. You can still use it, but nobody will really take you seriously.



It makes those individual instances canon, not his entire pre-crisis library.
Nope unless you want me to use superman heating entire planet.

That doesn't makes it non-canon. You want an interview with geoff johns confirming that gls can't matter manipulate anymore as if 8 years of writing doesn't makes it abundantly clear?

The same rule should be applied to gls too. If hal remembers making kryptonite post crisis then sure he can. But just saying he made it pre crisis wouldn't cut here.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We certainly use Flash's IMP so....
Flash doesn't have any low showings. Its all PIS.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nope unless you want me to use superman heating entire planet.

That doesn't makes it non-canon. You want an interview with geoff johns confirming that gls can't matter manipulate anymore as if 8 years of writing doesn't makes it abundantly clear?

The same rule should be applied to gls too. If hal remembers making kryptonite post crisis then sure he can. But just saying he made it pre crisis wouldn't cut here.

Yes, as heating an entire planet still doesn't compare to actively using coordinated, precise matter manipulation.

So you want to seperate Lanterns in to post crisis, and post crisis Johns eras? I can't see that happening, tbh.

and Johns has had Lanterns use matter manipulation, just not very often.

It's not the same thing. Lantern feats from pre crisis (some of them anyway) are still valid.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Yes, as heating an entire planet still doesn't compare to actively using coordinated, precise matter manipulation.

So you want to seperate Lanterns in to post crisis, and post crisis Johns eras? I can't see that happening, tbh.

and Johns has had Lanterns use matter manipulation, just not very often.

It's not the same thing. Lantern feats from pre crisis (some of them anyway) are still valid.

Like what?

No, I just want to know what feats of matter manipulation gls have done post crisis.

Rly? When?

So are of superman, unless you want to say that the only part of DCP 26 where an alien creates kryptonite by hal's ring is canon and superman breaking hal's auto-shield like tissue paper in a punch is non canon to current day superman. It works in both ways.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Like what?

No, I just want to know what feats of matter manipulation gls have done post crisis.

Rly? When?

So are of superman, unless you want to say that the only part of DCP 26 where an alien creates kryptonite by hal's ring is canon and superman breaking hal's auto-shield like tissue paper in a punch is non canon to current day superman. It works in both ways.

Like creating an atmosphere?

Post crisis, or during Johns' run? If you know, why are you asking?

When Hal saved cowgirl from the russians, he made an entire hospital room for her and stabilised her vital signs.

It's not the same, because Superman was heavily rebooted post crisis, so only the feats he directly references or that are referenced by the author count.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Like creating an atmosphere?

Post crisis, or during Johns' run? If you know, why are you asking?

When Hal saved cowgirl from the russians, he made an entire hospital room for her and stabilised her vital signs.

It's not the same, because Superman was heavily rebooted post crisis, so only the feats he directly references or that are referenced by the author count.
By who? Issue number or scans please.

I don't know honestly.

That was a construct IIRC.

Yeah and they rebooted him again after Infinite crisis making his entire legion history canon once again. Heck even mordru has acknowledged that superman as superboy and he have clashed many times before in LO3W. In adventure comics 12 it was shown that clark went many times to legion as superboy. I don't know how it can be more clear that his entire legion history was canon once again.

Originally posted by abhilegend
By who? Issue number or scans please.

I don't know honestly.

That was a construct IIRC.

Yeah and they rebooted him again after Infinite crisis making his entire legion history canon once again. Heck even mordru has acknowledged that superman as superboy and he have clashed many times before in LO3W. In adventure comics 12 it was shown that clark went many times to legion as superboy. I don't know how it can be more clear that his entire legion history was canon once again.

It was in the John Byrne Superman days, I don't have a number to hand; lemme look.

It was a construct that was able to heal her. He even had a saline drip for her. To heal her/provide fluids would take matter manipulation, even on a small scale.

The adventures that are referenced, are canon, but still have to be consistent with his powers. Using some stupid high end feat just because it appeared in a Legion book doesn't really make sense.

Originally posted by -Pr-
It was in the John Byrne Superman days, I don't have a number to hand; lemme look.

It was a construct that was able to heal her. He even had a saline drip for her. To heal her/provide fluids would take matter manipulation, even on a small scale.

The adventures that are referenced, are canon, but still have to be consistent with his powers. Using some stupid high end feat just because it appeared in a Legion book doesn't really make sense.

Ok.

That isn't very helpful for his case. Writers doesn't notice such facts.

It may not make the sense but that's irrelevant. It was blatantly shown and referenced that its canon and that's what matters. If you want to say he's vastly depowered than remember, he's at least stalemated and sometimes even defeated everyone that has a pre crisis connection like Pocket dimension superboy, Mon-El. Earth-2 superman etc.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Ok.

That isn't very helpful for his case. Writers doesn't notice such facts.

It may not make the sense but that's irrelevant. It was blatantly shown and referenced that its canon and that's what matters. If you want to say he's vastly depowered than remember, he's at least stalemated and sometimes even defeated everyone that has a pre crisis connection like Pocket dimension superboy, Mon-El. Earth-2 superman etc.

Why not? You don't think someone who does as much research as Johns (his scripts are crazy detailed at times), would think of something like that?

I'm not saying it's not canon. Any referenced Legion adventures are canon to post crisis Superman. That isn't up for debate. What is, is the usefulness of some feats performed during that era.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Why not? You don't think someone who does as much research as Johns (his scripts are crazy detailed at times), would think of something like that?

I'm not saying it's not canon. Any referenced Legion adventures are canon to post crisis Superman. That isn't up for debate. What is, is the usefulness of some feats performed during that era.
If its shown as green then no it isn't matter manipulation. I would like to see the scan of it.

And why would be that?

Originally posted by abhilegend
If its shown as green then no it isn't matter manipulation. I would like to see the scan of it.

And why would be that?

Being green doesn't mean it isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing. They've created green fire/water before, and it's done the job of actual fire or water. I don't have it on me; if someone could post it, i'd be grateful.

Unless you want to seperate Johns from other writers that have worked on Pre/Post Crisis Lanterns.

What do you mean why? Because certain things that pre-crisis Superman did are either ****ed-up stupid, or just out of his range. That's not a knock against Post Crisis Superman, rather a commentary on the retardedness of Pre Crisis.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Being green doesn't mean it isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing. They've created green fire/water before, and it's done the job of actual fire or water. I don't have it on me; if someone could post it, i'd be grateful.

Unless you want to seperate Johns from other writers that have worked on Pre/Post Crisis Lanterns.

What do you mean why? Because certain things that pre-crisis Superman did are either ****ed-up stupid, or just out of his range. That's not a knock against Post Crisis Superman, rather a commentary on the retardedness of Pre Crisis.
I would still like to see the scan btw. This is just to confirm what you are saying. No offense but you know that I only believe what I see. Just tell me the issue number and I would post it here.

Yeah, he is different than other writers who worked on gl before. He has actually referenced the depowerment of ring. Heck now they can't even teleport under ring's power.

Sixties' superman. After "Kryptonite nevermore" it was more consistent than post crisis superman IMO.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I would still like to see the scan btw. This is just to confirm what you are saying. No offense but you know that I only believe what I see. Just tell me the issue number and I would post it here.

Yeah, he is different than other writers who worked on gl before. He has actually referenced the depowerment of ring. Heck now they can't even teleport under ring's power.

Sixties' superman. After "Kryptonite nevermore" it was more consistent than post crisis superman IMO.

Issue... 16, of the current Lantern run.

Where has he said that Lanterns can't teleport or use matter manipulation?

Huh?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Issue... 16, of the current Lantern run.

Where has he said that Lanterns can't teleport or use matter manipulation?

Huh?

Nope, its a construct and can't be treated as matter manipulation unless it was specifically stated so.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/GreenLanter16-017.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/GreenLanter16-018.jpg

Read the new green lantern corps where a gl had to use his own teleportation power to escape.

Only sixties' superman was doing the crazy things you see on the internet today. Superman lost 2/3 of his powers and was consistently a planet mover since then.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nope, its a construct and can't be treated as matter manipulation unless it was specifically stated so.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/GreenLanter16-017.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/GreenLanter16-018.jpg

Read the new green lantern corps where a gl had to use his own teleportation power to escape.

Only sixties' superman was doing the crazy things you see on the internet today. Superman lost 2

Why not? You're saying a construct in and of itself can't be considered to be manipulating matter?

Scan?

Lost 2 what?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Why not? You're saying a construct in and of itself can't be considered to be manipulating matter?

Scan?

Lost 2 what?

Yeah I'm saying exactly the same.

I'm not your scan machine.uhuh

Phail.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah I'm saying exactly the same.

I'm not your scan machine.uhuh

Phail.

Honest question: You want Green Lanterns to be treated differently because you believe they're written at a different level than they used to be, but you want to give Superman the benefit of the doubt and allow him access to feats that aren't really considered within his capabilities anymore?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Honest question: You want Green Lanterns to be treated differently because you believe they're written at a different level than they used to be, but you want to give Superman the benefit of the doubt and allow him access to feats that aren't really considered within his capabilities anymore?
No, I don't want to treat gls any differently than any other character. But if we're giving them the benefit of the doubt and saying that yeah their PC feats are canon because they all remember it then superman should also be allowed to retain his feats because he remembers them too. Its just being fair to both of them. GLs were doing ridiculous shit too back then which wouldn't happen today.

Here are the scans

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_glc_03_007copy.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_glc_03_008copy.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_glc_03_018copy.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_glc_03_019copy.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_glc_03_020copy.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, I don't want to treat gls any differently than any other character. But if we're giving them the benefit of the doubt and saying that yeah their PC feats are canon because they all remember it then superman should also be allowed to retain his feats because he remembers them too. Its just being fair to both of them. GLs were doing ridiculous shit too back then which wouldn't happen today.

Here are the scans

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_glc_03_007copy.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_glc_03_008copy.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_glc_03_018copy.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_glc_03_019copy.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_glc_03_020copy.jpg

Intresting, now it makes sense. I was wondering why cyborg was the only one doing all the teleporting in jla. So gl's can't teleport, wonder woman can't fly.

Has superman been significantly nerfed as well or the flash? All I know is flash can't speed up too much since he starts opening wormholes. Does MM still have his weakness to fire?

Originally posted by nwg202
Intresting, now it makes sense. I was wondering why cyborg was the only one doing all the teleporting in jla. So gl's can't teleport, wonder woman can't fly.

Has superman been significantly nerfed as well or the flash? All I know is flash can't speed up too much since he starts opening wormholes. Does MM still have his weakness to fire?
I don't know man. Its all still a mystery.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, I don't want to treat gls any differently than any other character. But if we're giving them the benefit of the doubt and saying that yeah their PC feats are canon because they all remember it then superman should also be allowed to retain his feats because he remembers them too. Its just being fair to both of them. GLs were doing ridiculous shit too back then which wouldn't happen today.

Here are the scans

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_glc_03_007copy.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_glc_03_008copy.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_glc_03_018copy.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_glc_03_019copy.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_glc_03_020copy.jpg

It would only be fair if it was the same thing.

-Reads scans-

Where does it say Lanterns can't teleport?

Originally posted by -Pr-
It would only be fair if it was the same thing.

-Reads scans-

Where does it say Lanterns can't teleport?
Yeah its the same thing.

Phail. The writer clearly indicates that the gls can't teleport otherwise they would've teleported by themselves. Even after seeing that Porter teleported John and co didn't teleport away, I wonder why?mhmm

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah its the same thing.

Phail. The writer clearly indicates that the gls can't teleport otherwise they would've teleported by themselves. Even after seeing that Porter teleported John and co didn't teleport away, I wonder why?mhmm

It's really not, though.

You're applying logic to bad writing? Or do writers only consider fine details when you want them to?

I'm going to call you mister Twilight Loving Double Standard Man from now.

vin

Originally posted by -Pr-
It's really not, though.

You're applying logic to bad writing? Or do writers only consider fine details when you want them to?

I'm going to call you mister Twilight Loving Double Standard Man from now.

vin
Its the same thing.

Of course they do only when I grant them the permission for that.sneer

You phailed here too Mr. Jean's Whipping Boy Toy. Pity.

vin

Originally posted by abhilegend
Its the same thing.

Of course they do only when I grant them the permission for that.sneer

You phailed here too Mr. Jean's Whipping Boy Toy. Pity.

vin

Tell me how.

Cyclops jokes? You're a bit late to the party. Srank already used all the good ones.

Nice of you to admit you failed though.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Tell me how.

Cyclops jokes? You're a bit late to the party. Srank already used all the good ones.

Nice of you to admit you failed though.

How its not the same thing?

LOL. that tells you something when srank makes a joke about you.

Its never late for you to admit you phailed against me pr. I am forgiving you for that failure.

Originally posted by abhilegend
How its not the same thing?

LOL. that tells you something when srank makes a joke about you.

Its never late for you to admit you phailed against me pr. I am forgiving you for that failure.

Superman was heavily rebooted and depowered. Green Lanterns, like a lot of characters, were in many ways identical to their pre-crisis counterparts. There are a lot of Green Lantern feats from the pre-crisis era that should still be (as impressive as they are) possible for Green Lanterns.

For Kal-El? Not quite the same thing, unless you want to separate Johns era Lanterns from the other post crisis stuff.

Srank jokes about everyone; what's your point?

You're beginning to sound like Carver now.

Team 1

Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman was heavily rebooted and depowered. Green Lanterns, like a lot of characters, were in many ways identical to their pre-crisis counterparts. There are a lot of Green Lantern feats from the pre-crisis era that should still be (as impressive as they are) possible for Green Lanterns.

For Kal-El? Not quite the same thing, unless you want to separate Johns era Lanterns from the other post crisis stuff.

Srank jokes about everyone; what's your point?

You're beginning to sound like Carver now.
He was once again powered up to the point that there aren't many differences between pre and post crisis supermen if we ignore wacky showings. He also remembers his past, What's the problem?

The old rings had infinite power for 24 hours, today's rings don't.

I only know him for a short amount of time and he didn't come across as a joking type.

This is his influence upon you that is talking.uhuh

Originally posted by abhilegend
He was once again powered up to the point that there aren't many differences between pre and post crisis supermen if we ignore wacky showings. He also remembers his past, What's the problem?

The old rings had infinite power for 24 hours, today's rings don't.

I only know him for a short amount of time and he didn't come across as a joking type.

This is his influence upon you that is talking.uhuh

Wanting to use wacky showings.

...and?

Then you're late to the party.

Or maybe I just know how to recognise Carvernomics when I hear it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Wanting to use wacky showings.

...and?

Then you're late to the party.

Or maybe I just know how to recognise Carvernomics when I hear it.
If you think I am trying to use superman sneezing away a solar system than you're wrong.

One difference.

I'm never late to a party, it starts whenever I join it.

Why don't I believe you?mmm

Originally posted by abhilegend
If you think I am trying to use superman sneezing away a solar system than you're wrong.

One difference.

I'm never late to a party, it starts whenever I join it.

Why don't I believe you?mmm

Then why are you saying all showings are valid?

One... As opposed to many.

Is that what they tell you?

The Carver is strong with you, that's why.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Then why are you saying all showings are valid?

One... As opposed to many.

Is that what they tell you?

The Carver is strong with you, that's why.
Nope, I never said it. Superman never sneezed away a solar system in a legion book.

One difference is enough to distinguish power levels in comics.

Not me, to you perhaps.

Again that's his influence that is talking. You are infected pr.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nope, I never said it. Superman never sneezed away a solar system in a legion book.

One difference is enough to distinguish power levels in comics.

Not me, to you perhaps.

Again that's his influence that is talking. You are infected pr.

Then what's the problem?

I don't see how. Hal was Krona busting, Kyle was containing entropic energies. GL's are still top heralds.

I don't party. Much.

That just sounds dirty.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Then what's the problem?

I don't see how. Hal was Krona busting, Kyle was containing entropic energies. GL's are still top heralds.

I don't party. Much.

That just sounds dirty.
The problem is you meddling in my nefarious plans.uhuh

I never denied that.

Of course you don't.

Originally posted by abhilegend
The problem is you meddling in my nefarious plans.uhuh

I never denied that.

Of course you don't.



You, plans? Really?

Then what's the issue.

I don't... So?

Originally posted by -Pr-
You, plans? Really?

Then what's the issue.

I don't... So?
Ouch, that hurts.

Nothing apparently.

You want me to answer that?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Ouch, that hurts.

Nothing apparently.

You want me to answer that?

Truth hurts.

Good.

Yes.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Truth hurts.

Good.

Yes.
Jerk.

Good.

Nope.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Jerk.

Good.

Nope.

****er.

Originally posted by -Pr-
****er.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, on paper, the Flash is faster than MM - not by much, but its there.



I'm sorry, not by much?!

Originally posted by abhilegend
Says the scans I produced and if you don't believe it here is superman blue telling the same thing

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_JLASecretFiles01-26.jpg

Post crisis and under geoff johns?

All that scan proves is that the constructs are made of light which we already knew. When he makes a chair, no disputes that it's not a real chair, it's a light construct. All that proves is that he's disrupting Kyle's ability to think in that photo.

If the constructs themselves had no properties of the images that they are simulating, then a giant anvil wouldn't be heavy (like in that pic) and a bed of feather's wouldn't be soft.

That scan doesn't prove your claim in the slightest.

And it happening or not happening under johns doesn't mean they aren't capable of such. It just means johns hasn't written it into any stories. But has it been written that they can't do it when we've already seen before that they can?

Oh, and I don't have to prove a negative. It's already been proven that the ring can do it because Kyle has done it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Being green doesn't mean it isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing. They've created green fire/water before, and it's done the job of actual fire or water.

Exactly, just like Kyle glued a ship together. Guess what? The green light construct was sticky.

Originally posted by Odekahn
All that scan proves is that the constructs are made of light which we already knew. When he makes a chair, no disputes that it's not a real chair, it's a light construct. All that proves is that he's disrupting Kyle's ability to think in that photo.

If the constructs themselves had no properties of the images that they are simulating, then a giant anvil wouldn't be heavy (like in that pic) and a bed of feather's wouldn't be soft.

That scan doesn't prove your claim in the slightest.

And it happening or not happening under johns doesn't mean they aren't capable of such. It just means johns hasn't written it into any stories. But has it been written that they can't do it when we've already seen before that they can?

Oh, and I don't have to prove a negative. It's already been proven that the ring can do it because Kyle has done it.
Great, if we take that instance as standard and transplant kyle's feat on hal and let j'onn relay information on how to create synthetic kryptonite which btw supergirl has practically no sold and even then assume that hal can use it before kal punches his head off, then it might be useful in debate.
Danger room can also create hard light images with weight and all things, it can also produce kryptonite? What part of Hard light constructs you didn't understand?
Actually you have to prove that hal can produce kryptonite. Just because kyle with a different ring can do it, doesn't mean hal can do it too.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Great, if we take that instance as standard and transplant kyle's feat on hal and let j'onn relay information on how to create synthetic kryptonite which btw supergirl has practically no sold and even then assume that hal can use it before kal punches his head off, then it might be useful in debate.
Danger room can also create hard light images with weight and all things, it can also produce kryptonite? What part of Hard light constructs you didn't understand?
Actually you have to prove that hal can produce kryptonite. Just because kyle with a different ring can do it, doesn't mean hal can do it too.

/facepalm

The point is that the ring is capable. Would you agree or not agree with that? Hal has done it pre crisis and it's been proven that the ring itself is still capable of producing it.

I've already wrote many times that a speedblitz isn't going to work and provided reasons why.

The Danger Room isn't the same as a GL ring. The ring is far more advanced and powerful than the Danger Room equipment. Also, kryptonite isn't in the Marvel universe so it's a moot point. It's never had the reason to even try to create it.

And Hal is a capable enough ring slinger to do anything Kyle can. Even in that scan you posted, it refers to Kyle as a rookie. Hal knows what he's doing.

You just don't want to admit it because you know it would be an auto loss for Superman.

Kinda screwed Wondy here, didn't he?

I'd have to go with Flash and The Lantern. Lantern has too many options and Flash is WAY too fast.

Originally posted by Odekahn
/facepalm

The point is that the ring is capable. Would you agree or not agree with that? Hal has done it pre crisis and it's been proven that the ring itself is still capable of producing it.

I've already wrote many times that a speedblitz isn't going to work and provided reasons why.

The Danger Room isn't the same as a GL ring. The ring is far more advanced and powerful than the Danger Room equipment. Also, kryptonite isn't in the Marvel universe so it's a moot point. It's never had the reason to even try to create it.

And Hal is a capable enough ring slinger to do anything Kyle can. Even in that scan you posted, it refers to Kyle as a rookie. Hal knows what he's doing.

You just don't want to admit it because you know it would be an auto loss for Superman.
Kyle had a special ring. Feats can't be transplanted from one character to another anyway no matter how similar.

I know about the auto shields. A random kryptonian broke auto shields of both hal and john. Go figures.

facepalm That was sarcasm in reply to your "constructs are heavy" argument. Phail.

Except he has never done it and one time he came to superman in a bloodlusted mindset aimed to kill him and another time he planned a complex plan to neutralize him in his own book.

LOL, superman has no sold a nuke standing in kryptonite laced sand, overcame having iron in his blood transmuted in kryptonite and healed from a kryptonite sword to the heart in one page. He has also taken new krypton's destruction shockwave while bathed in kryptonite radiation and took original krypton's destruction under a red sun and kryptonite point blank and wasn't even koed. If you think that its an auto loss for superman, good for you. First prove hal can do it in the first place.

Originally posted by Odekahn
We don't know how much willpower it will take if any to shield from TP attacks. We don't know that the ring doesn't do it on it's own (I'm actually pretty confident that's how it works). Now it would take some if he were to try to shield Flash as well, but we don't even know that he would need to. MM might have a heck of a time trying to get into Flash's mind. And speedblitzing Hal is out because:

1. Superman moves faster than thought, but the ring can shield Hal in time. The ring has become even more sophisticalted and advanced computer like as of late.

2. Flash can lend Hal speed if need be and... possibly steal speed from team 1? (not sure on that part)

3. Flash could stand in the way if all else fails.

And Hal isn't just going to be standing there while Supes pounds away on his shields. He's going to attack, quickly and decisively. All he needs is an opening and he can take down Superman. A kryptonite bullet did a number on Superman, so again I get the image of what a gatlin gun filled with kryptonite bullets would do to him. Is MM still terrified of fire? How about a green flame special served right as the bell rings?

There's just so many ways that Team 2 can win. They have the offence and the defense to boot.

Flash COULD steal speed from team 1, that's a fact. But it's not going to be easy. And again, I think with MMH coordinating the battle, and Superman knowing what Hal can do, they are going to take him down pretty quickly. And yeah, Flash is going to be faster than Superman, but we're not talking the speed difference of say, Superman vs the Hulk. And MMH is also pretty darn fast too. And both Superman and MMH can fly. It really depends on how each team fights, and to be honest, if Superman wasn't holding back, I'd give him the majority over that team by himself. Telepathy can be used on the Flash as well also.

Originally posted by Konton
Kinda screwed Wondy here, didn't he?

Yea. She needs, like, Maxima. Or Captain Marvel, get the god types together.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Kyle had a special ring. Feats can't be transplanted from one character to another anyway no matter how similar.

I know about the auto shields. A random kryptonian broke auto shields of both hal and john. Go figures.

facepalm That was sarcasm in reply to your "constructs are heavy" argument. Phail.

Except he has never done it and one time he came to superman in a bloodlusted mindset aimed to kill him and another time he planned a complex plan to neutralize him in his own book.

LOL, superman has no sold a nuke standing in kryptonite laced sand, overcame having iron in his blood transmuted in kryptonite and healed from a kryptonite sword to the heart in one page. He has also taken new krypton's destruction shockwave while bathed in kryptonite radiation and took original krypton's destruction under a red sun and kryptonite point blank and wasn't even koed. If you think that its an auto loss for superman, good for you. First prove hal can do it in the first place.

Can Green Lantern rings emit radiation, yes or no?

Has a GL ring ever created Kryptonite before?

Has it been shown post crisis that a GL ring is still capable of producing Kryptonite?

Was the GL who did create it a rookie who didn't have half the experience and know-how of Hal Jordan?

And just because different writers don't include something into their story doesn't take away from what the characters are capable of. Because it has been shown to happen before on panel, and because you cannot quote me anywhere that states that they can no longer do it, you aren't making any grounds on your argument. You are making a claim that they can't do it when it's within their powerset and they've been shown to do it before.

You mean to try to tell me that a GL can make fire and water and other elements, but they can't duplicate kryptonite? Let's be serious.

Oh, and John Stewert sure didn't seem to have any trouble hurting Superman... without kryptonite. Imagine what a GL would do to him with it. A sword in the heart is pretty impressive, but I'd be more impressed if he got up and acted unscathed after a barrage of gatlin guns fired thousands of rounds in him and filled him full of super holes.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Can Green Lantern rings emit radiation, yes or no?

Has a GL ring ever created Kryptonite before?

Has it been shown post crisis that a GL ring is still capable of producing Kryptonite?

Was the GL who did create it a rookie who didn't have half the experience and know-how of Hal Jordan?

And just because different writers don't include something into their story doesn't take away from what the characters are capable of. Because it has been shown to happen before on panel, and because you cannot quote me anywhere that states that they can no longer do it, you aren't making any grounds on your argument. You are making a claim that they can't do it when it's within their powerset and they've been shown to do it before.

You mean to try to tell me that a GL can make fire and water and other elements, but they can't duplicate kryptonite? Let's be serious.

Oh, and John Stewert sure didn't seem to have any trouble hurting Superman... without kryptonite. Imagine what a GL would do to him with it. A sword in the heart is pretty impressive, but I'd be more impressed if he got up and acted unscathed after a barrage of gatlin guns fired thousands of rounds in him and filled him full of super holes.

I agree with you that GLs can do everything that you're saying, but it's purely PIS when Superman gets hit by any bullet, even if Hal has the time to fire thousands of rounds of K bullets, Superman SHOULD be able to dodge them. (assuming Superman doesn't go for an immediate speed blitz and take Hal out). And again, it's going to take a LOT of concentration for Hal to shield himself and Flash from MMH's telepathy, so I wonder how much effort he can put into making all of those bullets.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I agree with you that GLs can do everything that you're saying, but it's purely PIS when Superman gets hit by any bullet, even if Hal has the time to fire thousands of rounds of K bullets, Superman SHOULD be able to dodge them. (assuming Superman doesn't go for an immediate speed blitz and take Hal out). And again, it's going to take a LOT of concentration for Hal to shield himself and Flash from MMH's telepathy, so I wonder how much effort he can put into making all of those bullets.

Well we don't know how much concentration it would take. Sinestro didn't even seem phased by TP. And if Flash steals speed from Superman, then Clark may not be able to move at the speed he technically should. And Flash can also lend Hal speed as well.

All Hal really has to do to deal with MMH is set the area around him on fire.

As for the Flash, Hal can simply make Wally a construct ring. Then he will have general(emphasis) GL powers and defenses as well.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Can Green Lantern rings emit radiation, yes or no?

Has a GL ring ever created Kryptonite before?

Has it been shown post crisis that a GL ring is still capable of producing Kryptonite?

Was the GL who did create it a rookie who didn't have half the experience and know-how of Hal Jordan?

And just because different writers don't include something into their story doesn't take away from what the characters are capable of. Because it has been shown to happen before on panel, and because you cannot quote me anywhere that states that they can no longer do it, you aren't making any grounds on your argument. You are making a claim that they can't do it when it's within their powerset and they've been shown to do it before.

You mean to try to tell me that a GL can make fire and water and other elements, but they can't duplicate kryptonite? Let's be serious.

Oh, and John Stewert sure didn't seem to have any trouble hurting Superman... without kryptonite. Imagine what a GL would do to him with it. A sword in the heart is pretty impressive, but I'd be more impressed if he got up and acted unscathed after a barrage of gatlin guns fired thousands of rounds in him and filled him full of super holes.
Today's rings, no.
Yes, synthetic kryptonite by a special ring by instructions implanted in the user's head by a telepath.

Does hal jordan being a seasoned gl automatically knows how to create kryptonite?

Ok, T-vo ftw.

What's in their powerset? According to their powerset they can create hard light images.

facepalm Did you just compare water and fire to kryptonite?

Superman stopped john stewart by creating a tornado once and oneshotted him on another ocassion. He cheapshotted him in eyes with laser saying that it was his weak point in his body. If that is the case his own HV would make him go blind.

A random kryptonian busted hal's auto shield like tissue paper and superman oneshotted the same kryptonian on the next panel. Imagine what a full force punch from superman would do to hal.

BTW you still have to prove that hal can produce kryptonite.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Today's rings, no.

Provide me the source that lanterns have lost this ability. When a GL ring has been shown to be capable of this, and you claim it cannot be done, the burden of proof IS on you.



Kyle was a rookie, lol. I don't see how this is hard to understand. The GL ring has evolved into a sophisticated computer. In the latest GL issue it provided Hal an entire 100 million square mile map of an alien planet. You don't think it knows the compounds of kryptonite?



Even if Hal doesn't know, the ring would.



That's one of their abilities, lol. They can also do other things like... oh... create pocket dimensions, create elements within their constructs, translate alien languages, etc. etc. etc.



I compared an element to an element, yes. And that a GL ring can mimic each.



Except that's not really the point I was making. My point had nothing to do with John Stewert. The point was that a GL can hurt Superman even without kryptonite and that with it, Superman doesn't stand a chance.



And yet Hal has stood toe to toe with the likes of Mongul (with a broken arm at that) and fist fought him. Even in the new Justice League series, Supes was breaking through Hal's shield (Hal's a rookie at this point) but it wasn't with a single shot. It was repeated shots and Hal's shields were starting to crack.

But even IF he wasn't able to create kryptonite (which he could) team 1 could be facing two Flash GLs. Wally lends Hal speed, and Hal creates a ring for Wally. It's ownage by team 2 no matter what way you look at it.

Superman ALWAYS holds back. Keep that in mind. In the Doomsday fight, he just stopped holding back in the end, and we saw what happened then. A non-holding back Superman is going to shatter Hal's shields. And kryptonite is in no way, shape, or form an auto-win against Superman. His resistance to Kryptonite had been steadily increasing every year to the point where he's trading blows with SBP on a planet of the stuff. And there have been many other examples posted in this thread of him resisting it as well.

Also, if we go by your scenario, where Flash goes to lend GL speed, well, that means he's distracted (even if for a mili-second) and that's enough time for Superman to move in and beat Hal's brains in, or shatter the shields. And MMH's TP is going to get to Flash if Hal isn't shielding him. And you're giving Hal a lot of credit thinking he can simulataneously:

1) Shield them both from TP

2) Resist Superman smashing the shields

3) Fire thousands or kryptonite bullets at Superman

AND:

4) Give Flash a ring.

That's just not going to happen. And really for their team to win, he has to be at least doing 3 of those things at once. WHILE Flash is distracted giving Hal speed. And if he's giving Hal speed, he's definitely not stealing Superman's at the same time.

Do you think Superman is almost as fast as Flash? Where are you getting that from? Flash is insanely faster than Superman.

Also I'm not saying kryptonite is an auto win against Superman. I'm saying that what Green Lantern can do to Superman with kryptonite is an auto win.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Superman ALWAYS holds back. Keep that in mind. In the Doomsday fight, he just stopped holding back in the end, and we saw what happened then. A non-holding back Superman is going to shatter Hal's shields. And kryptonite is in no way, shape, or form an auto-win against Superman. His resistance to Kryptonite had been steadily increasing every year to the point where he's trading blows with SBP on a planet of the stuff. And there have been many other examples posted in this thread of him resisting it as well.

Also, if we go by your scenario, where Flash goes to lend GL speed, well, that means he's distracted (even if for a mili-second) and that's enough time for Superman to move in and beat Hal's brains in, or shatter the shields. And MMH's TP is going to get to Flash if Hal isn't shielding him. And you're giving Hal a lot of credit thinking he can simulataneously:

1) Shield them both from TP

2) Resist Superman smashing the shields

3) Fire thousands or kryptonite bullets at Superman

AND:

4) Give Flash a ring.

That's just not going to happen. And really for their team to win, he has to be at least doing 3 of those things at once. WHILE Flash is distracted giving Hal speed. And if he's giving Hal speed, he's definitely not stealing Superman's at the same time.

Oh, and if a GL can recreate an entire active city and a planet, I'm sure the above wouldn't be out of the question. But that's not even how I see it all going down.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Provide me the source that lanterns have lost this ability. When a GL ring has been shown to be capable of this, and you claim it cannot be done, the burden of proof IS on you.



Kyle was a rookie, lol. I don't see how this is hard to understand. The GL ring has evolved into a sophisticated computer. In the latest GL issue it provided Hal an entire 100 million square mile map of an alien planet. You don't think it knows the compounds of kryptonite?



Even if Hal doesn't know, the ring would.



That's one of their abilities, lol. They can also do other things like... oh... create pocket dimensions, create elements within their constructs, translate alien languages, etc. etc. etc.



I compared an element to an element, yes. And that a GL ring can mimic each.



Except that's not really the point I was making. My point had nothing to do with John Stewert. The point was that a GL can hurt Superman even without kryptonite and that with it, Superman doesn't stand a chance.



And yet Hal has stood toe to toe with the likes of Mongul (with a broken arm at that) and fist fought him. Even in the new Justice League series, Supes was breaking through Hal's shield (Hal's a rookie at this point) but it wasn't with a single shot. It was repeated shots and Hal's shields were starting to crack.

But even IF he wasn't able to create kryptonite (which he could) team 1 could be facing two Flash GLs. Wally lends Hal speed, and Hal creates a ring for Wally. It's ownage by team 2 no matter what way you look at it.
What? Two different things entirely. Those rings in the past had infinite powers for 24 hours. Today's rings drain like there is no tomorrow and have finite charge. When kyle re-created oa and glc, new rings were made IIRC. You just has to bring proof that gls can produce radiation after that period.
If you think that this is a new ability of gl ring then you haven't read enough gl. No, I don't.
That pocket dimension comes default with the power battery as reaveled in GLC recently. They don't create it. Creating fire and water=/= creating kryptonite. That's oan supercomputer for you as they are linked with that.
Except water and fire aren't radioactive and it doesn't take batman years to make a synthetic, inferior version of each.
Superman with just strength can bust through any shield that hal has, add speed and hal stands no chance.
That is actually PIS. Hal has been koed by a yellow board to his head in those days and yet a completely yellow superman level guy punched him and he was still alive.
Superman is far weaker than his normal self too.
Why go to such complicated plans, kal just sings them out of existence.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Do you think Superman is almost as fast as Flash? Where are you getting that from? Flash is insanely faster than Superman.

Also I'm not saying kryptonite is an auto win against Superman. I'm saying that what Green Lantern can do to Superman with kryptonite is an auto win.
He is fast enough to tag him.
You still going with that one time kryptonite instance transplanting from kyle to hal?

Originally posted by Odekahn
Do you think Superman is almost as fast as Flash? Where are you getting that from? Flash is insanely faster than Superman.


Well, in the flash's own words, he said Superman USED TO BE faster than him. Also, there's the fact that their races have been incredibly close (also keep in mind Superman won't go his full speed in the atmosphere for fear of destroying things). There's the fact that Superman has rebuilt an entire city in seconds.

I'm not saying Superman is as fast as the Flash, but the difference isn't like it is between Superman and the Hulk.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Well, in the flash's own words, he said Superman USED TO BE faster than him. Also, there's the fact that their races have been incredibly close (also keep in mind Superman won't go his full speed in the atmosphere for fear of destroying things). There's the fact that Superman has rebuilt an entire city in seconds.

I'm not saying Superman is as fast as the Flash, but the difference isn't like it is between Superman and the Hulk. Actually, it probably is about that different. Flash is immensely faster than Superman.

Originally posted by Blight
Actually, it probably is about that different. Flash is immensely faster than Superman.
Maybe if we take only highest feats into account.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Also, there's the fact that their races have been incredibly close

Except for their most recent race in rebirth...

And one more thing, if we take into account how flash's powers actually work and don't mesh two different aspect of his powers like his fanboys and comic fans in general tend to do i.e. IMP which is possible only at near light speed not above it and FTL speed, he would get beaten by superman without speed stealing which superman has willed out in past. People like to say that travelling way FTL he can deliver IMPs which is contradictory by itself.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He is fast enough to tag him.
You still going with that one time kryptonite instance transplanting from kyle to hal?

It's not a Kyle/Hal issue. It's the fact that the GL ring itself is capable of such...

Originally posted by Odekahn
Except for their most recent race in rebirth...
Barry still had the black flash amp then.

Originally posted by Odekahn
It's not a Kyle/Hal issue. It's the fact that the GL ring itself is capable of such...
No, its the matter of transplanting one character's feat on another.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You just has to bring proof that gls can produce radiation after that period.

Seriously? What do you think a laser is?? I'll give you a hint... it starts with a R... ends with an N... and has adiatio somewhere in the middle.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Barry still had the black flash amp then.

Oh, so that's why he purposefully told Superman that he was running slow in those charity races so Superman could keep up with him then...I guess he had it all along /rollseyes

Originally posted by Odekahn
Seriously? What do you think a laser is?? I'll give you a hint... it starts with a R... ends with an N... and has adiatio somewhere in the middle.
Really? I mean really? You think that firing green lasers is what I had in mind when I said gls can't shoot radiation? C'mon.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Oh, so that's why he purposefully told Superman that he was running slow in those charity races so Superman could keep up with him then...I guess he had it all along /rollseyes
Did I ever said otherwise? I just said that race isn't applicable here as flash was amped.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Really? I mean really? You think that firing green lasers is what I had in mind when I said gls can't shoot radiation? C'mon.

You said that I needed to bring proof that a GL can create radiation... If they couldn't, they wouldn't be able to blast powerful laser beams. You're the one who said it.

So you agree that a GL ring can create radiation? Yes or no?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Did I ever said otherwise? I just said that race isn't applicable here as flash was amped.

Kind of like how Superman was amped when he built that city?

How about when Flash evacuated an entire city as a nuke was exploding? Do you think Superman could do that without being amped?

Originally posted by Odekahn
You said that I needed to bring proof that a GL can create radiation... If they couldn't, they wouldn't be able to blast powerful laser beams. You're the one who said it.

So you agree that a GL ring can create radiation? Yes or no?
Nice strawman argument. Superman himself can produce X-rays, infrared and microwaves among other wavelengths. Of course they can shoot energy beams. They only do that and make constructs for nearly a decade now. I wanted a proof that they can produce anything other than green lasers. What are you trying to prove here?

Originally posted by Odekahn
Kind of like how Superman was amped when he built that city?

How about when Flash evacuated an entire city as a nuke was exploding? Do you think Superman could do that without being amped?
Did I mentioned city building anywhere? Flash was travelling under lightspeed whether flash fans like it or not. I don't see why not.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Did I mentioned city building anywhere? Flash was travelling under lightspeed whether flash fans like it or not. I don't see why not.

Actually, as it's been pointed out before, NO WHERE does it say a blue sun amps Superman's existing abilities. It's only been shown to give him new abilities.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nice strawman argument. Superman himself can produce X-rays, infrared and microwaves among other wavelengths. Of course they can shoot energy beams. They onlw do that and make constructs for nearly a decade now. I wanted a proof that they can produce anything other than green lasers. What are you trying to prove here?

It's not a strawman argument. I didn't make your case weak and then tear it down. I quoted you and responded to it.

Superman absorbs solar energy, and releases it through his eyes as heat vision. He doesn't manipulate it in the way that a GL manipulates lights and lasers (constructs) and we have seen the GL rings ability to create elements using said radiation, have we not? It is really beyond common sense that they can create kryptonite?

As a side note, even if you were to provide some form of proof and convince me that they can't create it (even though AGAIN the GL ring has been shown able to do this) that wouldn't ensure that team 1 would win, it would just mean that team 2 would actually have to work for it (I'd still think they'd be the winners lol).

Originally posted by abhilegend
And one more thing, if we take into account how flash's powers actually work and don't mesh two different aspect of his powers like his fanboys and comic fans in general tend to do i.e. IMP which is possible only at near light speed not above it and FTL speed, he would get beaten by superman without speed stealing which superman has willed out in past. People like to say that travelling way FTL he can deliver IMPs which is contradictory by itself.



This post sums it up nicely.

And I still stand by my statement that Superman by himself can solo that team.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris


This post sums it up nicely.

And I still stand by my statement that Superman by himself can solo that team.

It sums up what? That Flash couldn't beat Superman by himself? I don't think anyone has argued that. It's the combination of Flash and GL that's beyond deadly.

I'll always give Flash the edge against Superma due to the speed stealing, which is something that has been acknowledged and shown as working on him within the comics. Without that tactic, I'd say team 1 comfortably plows through this match but, as it is, I believe that Flash is not an idiot for the purpose of a non-PIS forum match, and once Superman is nullified, team 2 wins it.

Originally posted by Odekahn
It's not a strawman argument. I didn't make your case weak and then tear it down. I quoted you and responded to it.

Superman absorbs solar energy, and releases it through his eyes as heat vision. He doesn't manipulate it in the way that a GL manipulates lights and lasers (constructs) and we have seen the GL rings ability to create elements using said radiation, have we not? It is really beyond common sense that they can create kryptonite?

As a side note, even if you were to provide some form of proof and convince me that they can't create it (even though AGAIN the GL ring has been shown able to do this) that wouldn't ensure that team 1 would win, it would just mean that team 2 would actually have to work for it (I'd still think they'd be the winners lol).
Come on man, you can do better than that. GLs absorb energy in their rings and shoot it like lasers and create hard light images. Thats not uncommon in comics. Superman actually hypermetabolizes solar radiation and later converts it in heat when firing HV. I don't think that anything can convince you otherwise.