Chaos King vs Lucifer Morningstar

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lilshogun
Lucifer Morningstar decides to pay Chaos King a visit.

quanchi112
CK wins. Spite.

dynamix
think so?

quanchi112
Originally posted by dynamix
think so? Yeah.

zopzop
Originally posted by quanchi112
CK wins. Spite.

thumb up

BullwinkleMoose
Lucifer wins. If the Heroes could trick CK with the Void imagine what Lucifer could do considering he is infinitely smarter than Cho, Athena, Hercules, and all of them combined

AsbestosFlaygon
Which version of Lucifer Morningstar?
Marvel's or DC/Vertigo's?

abhilegend
Lucifer.

Cogito
Spite against CK unless this takes place in the Void.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Cogito
Spite against CK unless this takes place in the Void. How is it spite ? What has beaten the Chaos King ?

lilshogun
DC VertigoOriginally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Which version of Lucifer Morningstar?
Marvel's or DC/Vertigo's?

Nihilist
Lucifer

bbrem123
CK all day

iceman24567
Lucifer wrecks him

Eon Blue
The Morningstar handily takes this.

zopzop
Now that it's been confirmed that CK destroyed 98.75% of the multiverse and absorbing everything in his path, how does Team Lucifer justify a win against CK here?

Mr Master
Originally posted by Cogito

Spite against CK unless this takes place in the Void.
Oblivion is not empowered by the void. (well, at-least he never was before)

CK/Oblivion's most powerful incarnation is that of an m-body.
Otherwise, he can't touch you, while you can't see/hear/touch/smell/or register him.

Heck, the very fact that there is reality,
tells us CK/Oblivion can't stop someone in the void from creating shit anew.
Which furthermore tells us he's irrelevant in the void, even if he supposedly embodies it.

CK has to come at Lucifer with his near total multiversal absorption m-body.

Galan007
Lucifer.

Mindset
Originally posted by Galan007
Lucifer. I'm convinced. thumb up

Mindset
Convinced that you have a drydick!

Galan007
I'm convinced that you've been drinking. thumb up

zopzop
To those saying Lucifer, how?

CK is packing more power than Lucifer and is unkillable.

eaebiakuya
Lucifer is not Megaversal ?

CK almost destroyed 1 multiverse. Lucifer can deal with more than 1 multiverse, right ?

zopzop
Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Lucifer is not Megaversal ?

CK almost destroyed 1 multiverse. Lucifer can deal with more than 1 multiverse, right ?
How? He needed his brother's power to create a universe. Even to those people saying he survived the Big Bang, it's a pointless feat since as God's Will, Lucifer manipulated Michael's, who is God's Power, energies.

CatL18
Lucifer has limitless reality manipulation.
He can't only create. But he can warp multiverse, megaverse, even Omniverse.
I think Lucifer stomps.

zopzop
Originally posted by CatL18
Lucifer has limitless reality manipulation.
He can't only create. But he can warp multiverse, megaverse, even Omniverse.
I think Lucifer stomps.
Proof?

abhilegend
Originally posted by abhilegend
Lucifer.

CatL18
Originally posted by zopzop
Proof?
Luccifer is God's will personified.
so, if Presence is omnipotent, Lucifer has infinite will=Reality Manipulation.

quanchi112
Originally posted by CatL18
Luccifer is God's will personified.
so, if Presence is omnipotent, Lucifer has infinite will=Reality Manipulation. Faulty logic.

CatL18
Originally posted by quanchi112
Faulty logic.
Why?

quanchi112
Originally posted by CatL18
Why? Definition if willpower makes no mention of reality manipulation.

the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action.

CatL18
Originally posted by quanchi112
Definition if willpower makes no mention of reality manipulation.

the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action.
Lucifer warp reality through his infinite will powaer.
Michael is infinite power pesonified.
Lucifer can warp what Michael generated.
so, Lucifer can warp infinite thing.

quanchi112
Originally posted by CatL18
Lucifer warp reality through his infinite will powaer.
Michael is infinite power pesonified.
Lucifer can warp what Michael generated.
so, Lucifer can warp infinite thing. Prove he warps through his infinite willpower. Lucifer can warp the demiurgos power but he was created to do so. This has nothing to do with infinite willpower. Nothing at all.

smile

CatL18
Originally posted by quanchi112
Prove he warps through his infinite willpower. Lucifer can warp the demiurgos power but he was created to do so. This has nothing to do with infinite willpower. Nothing at all.

smile
Michael can generate infinitely.
Lucifer can warp it.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Lucy

quanchi112
Originally posted by CatL18
Michael can generate infinitely.
Lucifer can warp it. He can warp this power to create. I agree but this has nothing to do with him having infinite willpower. Horrible logic.

Epicurus
Originally posted by zopzop
To those saying Lucifer, how?
By incinerating him to back to being the subskyfather level weakling which was imprisoned by the Japanese gods.
Originally posted by zopzop
CK is packing more power than Lucifer and is unkillable.
hysterical

abhilegend
Yeah, zop is being zop again.

Epicurus
Just did a re-read of Carey's series. Damn, I forgot just how well written the series was.

His Lucifer is, without a shadow of a doubt, the most well-written Abstract-level character in the history of comics ever.

Marvel's cosmic entities would be lucky if they ever came under the pen of someone of Carey's caliber.

Golgo13
Originally posted by Epicurus
Just did a re-read of Carey's series. Damn, I forgot just how well written the series was.

His Lucifer is, without a shadow of a doubt, the most well-written Abstract-level character in the history of comics ever.

Marvel's cosmic entities would be lucky if they ever came under the pen of someone of Carey's caliber.

Starlin's Synnar comes close. shifty

zopzop
Originally posted by Epicurus
By incinerating him to back to being the subskyfather level weakling which was imprisoned by the Japanese gods.

He started out that way but apparently became much more. It took Lucifer and Michael combined to create a universe. CK destroyed 98.75% of the Marvel MULTIVERSE.

The only way they beat him was by giving him what he always wanted, to be alone again.

As an aspect of Oblivion, probably his most powerful ever depicted on panel, he's not being killed by anything short of a trans-multiversal power. SuperGod Herc, that RESTORED 98.75% of the multiverse, couldn't do it. Lucifer isn't doing anything but dying painfully.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, zop is being zop again.
Instead of acting like a 10 year old, prove me wrong. CK was/is a confirmed multiversal power.

Insane Titan
Lucifer wins handily

Galan007
Originally posted by zopzop
To those saying Lucifer, how? Simple, by BFR'ing CK into a void. That's how they did it on earth, after all, and CK was perfectly content with that.

As for the quote under your sig: you realize there isn't an "ass" in "chaos", right? It's pronounced 'kay-oss', not 'kay-ass'. Food for thought. thumb up

zopzop
Originally posted by Galan007
Simple, by BFR'ing CK into a void... That's how they did it on earth, after all.
You realize there were special circumstances behind that right?


It's a joke.

A

J
O
K
E

Galan007
Originally posted by zopzop

You realize there were special circumstances behind that right?


It's a joke.

A

J
O
K
E A special circumstance not beyond Lucifer's ability to duplicate.

Jokes are for rich people. thumb down

Cogito
Originally posted by Mr Master
Oblivion is not empowered by the void. (well, at-least he never was before)

I was not referring to Oblivion being empower, but Lucifer likely not being able to work his mojo. His thing is manipulating reality, not creating. The latter role belongs to Michael. I don't know what he could or couldn't do to the Chaos King in a void, but that's exactly why he had to free Michael from Sandalphon and detonate him in the void so that he could create his own multiverse.

operator616
Originally posted by zopzop
He started out that way but apparently became much more. It took Lucifer and Michael combined to create a universe.

While there is evidence to suggest it was a universe, the stronger evidence alludes to it being a multiverse. Lucifer: Nirvana outright says it, and the fact that it's completely separated from Yahweh's creation (which is a multiverse on its own), further supports this case.

Just like there's evidence suggesting that CK only destroyed the majority of a single universe, but the stronger evidence saying that it was a multiverse.

Originally posted by zopzop
CK was/is a confirmed multiversal power.

Lucifer is multiversal as well.

And his scale of influence is greater. He managed to give Elaine's adoptive father (who was in Yahweh's multiverse) a heart attack with a mere gesture, while being in his own creation. That's trans-multiversal scale of control.

Mr Master
I still haven't read the relevant issues but ... How was CK defeated?

Was it simple bfr ... or was he 'tricked' (pis) somehow to leave, or allow the bfr?

If he was never defeated vs an opponent or more,
and he wasn't bfr'd, and instead plot got em trapped in that disconnected reality,
then imo, sayin he can just be bfr'd is out of the question.

Also, why can't he leave/escape this reality he's trapped in?
Originally posted by operator616

And his scale of influence is greater. He managed to give Elaine's adoptive father (who was in Yahweh's multiverse) a heart attack with a mere gesture, while being in his own creation.

That's trans-multiversal scale of control.
I believe Zop meant someone who has trans-multiversal scale of control over space-time,
not just affecting a single individual across a trans-multiversal distance.

Cool feat, but I wouldn't label that as trans-multiversal scale of control.
(makes it read like he's controlling an actual multiverse and more)
When I think you didn't mean that.

Ey, for the innocent onlookers lest they be confused. smile

zopzop
Originally posted by Mr Master
I still haven't read the relevant issues but ... How was CK defeated?

Was it simple bfr ... or was he 'tricked' (pis) somehow to leave, or allow the bfr?

If he was never defeated vs an opponent or more,
and he wasn't bfr'd, and instead plot got em trapped in that disconnected reality,
then imo, sayin he can just be bfr'd is out of the question.

Also, why can't he leave/escape this reality he's trapped in?


It wasn't PIS believe it or not. They "beat" him by giving him what he wanted all along, to be left alone.

He was BFRed into a lifeless universe that existed outside the mainstream multiverse. He loved it and said he was finally at peace or something to that effect.

If he wants to get out, I don't think ANYTHING is stopping him (the LT is out of action) and the mainstream Marvel multiverse would be phucked.

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

It wasn't PIS believe it or not.
They "beat" him by giving him what he wanted all along, to be left alone.

He was BFRed into a lifeless universe that existed outside the
mainstream multiverse. He loved it and said he was finally at peace
or something to that effect.
That's PIS!

'Plot induced stupidity' doesn't necessarily need to be "stupid."
It can also be a cheesy/or easy way out to end the story when you can't defeat a villain.

If you're right about what happened, then he was never defeated, never bfr'd,
and he won't come back cause he's happy there. (pis)

You know, for a sub-skyfather level beginning,
this guy has some incredible absorption capabilities.

Although, he wasn't able to suck in a universe off the bat, he had to increase in power to do so,
I'm wondering, along his trail of misery, was he ever stalled,
did anyone give him trouble?
Also, when he battled Herc, (who was multiversal I hear) what happened?

operator616
Originally posted by Mr Master
I still haven't read the relevant issues but ... How was CK defeated?

Was it simple bfr ... or was he 'tricked' (pis) somehow to leave, or allow the bfr?

If he was never defeated vs an opponent or more,
and he wasn't bfr'd, and instead plot got em trapped in that disconnected reality,
then imo, sayin he can just be bfr'd is out of the question.

Also, why can't he leave/escape this reality he's trapped in?


Here's the scene from CW #5:

http://i.imgur.com/eeWEJyo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RCJJTO3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Q0WeOMA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iRVBQKm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/K1Q0hUp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8NWYdnL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VhVQdiW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RJpJyZk.jpg

Hercules punched CK into that bubble universe where he returned to his primordial state. But CK didn't know that he was bfr'ed, he thought that (due to the bubble universe's emptiness) he consumed the entire multiverse, and returned into his primordial state. The handbook clarifies this:

http://i.imgur.com/A6aW4Sc.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master

I believe Zop meant someone who has trans-multiversal scale of control over space-time,
not just affecting a single individual across a trans-multiversal distance.

Cool feat, but I wouldn't label that as trans-multiversal scale of control.
(makes it read like he's controlling an actual multiverse and more)
When I think you didn't mean that.

Ey, for the innocent onlookers lest they be confused. smile

I know what he meant, which is why i didn't quote that part of his response (cause Lucifer didn't display trans-multiverse space-time control), i was just saying that Lucifer's range, is greater than the CK's (who never affected anything/anyone outside the mainstream multiverse).

Cogito
Can't believe nobody's mentioned that Lucifer already 1 shot an abstract, Fenris.

And that Fenris was at the peak of his power at the time, while Lucifer was at his second weakest (weakest being de-winged, of course)

operator616
^ Fenris is no abstract. Come on. Sure, he was stated to be an embodiment of destruction, but his portrayal was certainly not abstract-level.

zopzop
Originally posted by Galan007
A special circumstance not beyond Lucifer's ability to duplicate.

Seriously? Lucifer can create an empty universe outside the mainstream multiverse and BFR CK there?

First off, scans of him creating anything universal in scale under his own power?

Secondly, scans of him going up against a being of CK's level. Keep in mind it took SuperGod Herc to punch him in the gate in the first place and SuperGod Herc is a confirmed MULTIVESAL power (he restored 98.75% of the multiverse and resurrected all the dead heroes/mortals/Gods/etc.. that CK destroyed).

Mr Master
Originally posted by operator616

Here's the scene from CW #5:

http://i.imgur.com/eeWEJyo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RCJJTO3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Q0WeOMA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iRVBQKm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/K1Q0hUp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8NWYdnL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VhVQdiW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RJpJyZk.jpg

Hercules punched CK into that bubble universe where he returned to his primordial state. But CK didn't know that he was bfr'ed, he thought that (due to the bubble universe's emptiness) he consumed the entire multiverse, and returned into his primordial state. The handbook clarifies this:

http://i.imgur.com/A6aW4Sc.jpg
thumb up

CK also laughed off Herc's punch, had it not been calculated perfectly
for CK to end up falling through rift, he wasn't gonna be stopped,
it was stated in the end, and Herc looked like he took the worst of it, while CK was laughing.

Interesting.

This guy is bad ass, and that's a pis defeat, he was never defeated.

Now let me see Herc remaking the Multiverse. big grin
Originally posted by operator616

I know what he meant, which is why i didn't quote that part of his response (cause Lucifer didn't display trans-multiverse space-time control), i was just saying that Lucifer's range, is greater than the CK's (who never affected anything/anyone outside the mainstream multiverse).
Cool, got cha. But imo, I don't think this makes any difference in this Match.
Had it been another multiverse or even universe, then yea.

operator616
Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up

CK also laughed off Herc's punch, had it not been calculated perfectly
for CK to end up falling through rift, he wasn't gonna be stopped,
it was stated in the end, and Herc looked like he took the worst of it, while CK was laughing.

Interesting.

This guy is bad ass, and that's a pis defeat, he was never defeated.

Now let me see Herc remaking the Multiverse. big grin


Here's Herc remaking reality:

http://i.imgur.com/FvpXobR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6u3We4R.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/sHVM1Hf.jpg

Mr Master
Originally posted by operator616
Here's Herc remaking reality:

http://i.imgur.com/FvpXobR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6u3We4R.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/sHVM1Hf.jpg
Thanx opr. But I hate when comics do what that last scan does, create controversy and debates.

I've said for many years, that the term "universe"
can mean "Multiverse" depending on the context of the story.
Although the term "multiverse" (infinite universeS) will never mean "Universe." (single reality)

Galan007
Originally posted by zopzop
Seriously? Lucifer can create an empty universe outside the mainstream multiverse and BFR CK there? Why does he need to create a void when they already exist in his creation..? smile

zopzop
Originally posted by Galan007
Why does he need to create a void when they already exist in his creation..?
See the problem? They exist IN his creation which would get devoured by CK.

The universe they tricked CK into existed OUTSIDE and was SEPARATE from the multiverse.

Lucifer dies.

Galan007
Originally posted by zopzop
See the problem? They exist IN his creation which would get devoured by CK.

The universe they tricked CK into existed OUTSIDE and was SEPARATE from the multiverse.

Lucifer dies. Remember when Lucifer stepped into a void separate from Yahweh's creation when he made his multiverse? I do. smile

"Id"
Lucifer punches CK into the Void.

/FIN

zopzop
Originally posted by Galan007
Remember when Lucifer stepped into a void separate from Yahweh's creation when he made his multiverse? I do. smile
And what happened to the void when he used his brother's power to do it?

And how is that relevant to this fight?

Lucifer dies.

Galan007
Why does it matter that there is a physical creation in the void now? The point is that it is entirely separate from another multiverse, thus he could logically BFR CK there just as the heroes did. Simple.

How does Lucifer die? What singular opponent did CK overcome that was even remotely close to his level?

Jynocidus
CK probably eats him

zopzop
Originally posted by Galan007
Why does it matter that there is a physical creation in the void now? The point is that it is entirely separate from another multiverse, thus he could logically BFR CK there just as the heroes did. Simple.
You are not following.

If
a) the fight takes place in Yahweh's multiverse, Lucifer gets wrecked as CK eats his entire multiverse then has Lucifer for dessert.

b) the fight takes place in Lucifer's creation, Lucifer gets wrecked as CK eats his entire creation then has Lucifer for dessert.

Lucifer hasn't created anything impressive at all under his own power. He's not creating an entire universe separate and outside any multiverse to BFR CK in (assuming he's even capable of doing it, SuperGod Herc did it because he had help).



He devoured 98.75% of the Marvel MULTIVERSE. We saw him on panel annihilate entire pantheons not just on Earth but across the universe/multiverse.

Lucifer hasn't done jack crap that's comparable to that on panel. CK rips off his wings then BBQs that limp wristed punk. CK wins. Happy Dance

leonidas
so, is there actual proof that ck absorbed the TRUE multiverse? i mean is there proof that he absorbed alternate versions of 616 and the realms/realities/dimensions that make them up?

Galan007
Originally posted by zopzop
You are not following.

If
a) the fight takes place in Yahweh's multiverse, Lucifer gets wrecked as CK eats his entire multiverse then has Lucifer for dessert.

b) the fight takes place in Lucifer's creation, Lucifer gets wrecked as CK eats his entire creation then has Lucifer for dessert. Evidently you are not following. All Lucifer needs to do is BFR CK to a realm completely separate/cut-off from the one he's in(Lucifer DOES have access to such realms, remember), and he wins. smile

Originally posted by zopzop
He devoured 98.75% of the Marvel MULTIVERSE. We saw him on panel annihilate entire pantheons not just on Earth but across the universe/multiverse. He consumed the multiverse over time, certainly not in one fell swoop.

And I ask again: what singular character did CK consume that was on par with peak Lucifer?

zopzop
Originally posted by Galan007
Evidently you are not following. All Lucifer needs to do is BFR CK to a realm completely separate/cut-off from the one he's in(Lucifer DOES have access to such realms, remember), and he wins. smile
Uhm, no. Where is this Void outside the multiverse? It sure isn't Lucifer's creation because it's not a Void anymore. It's not Yahweh's creation because it's not a void.


He consumed it over time because he was sidetracked killing entire PANTHEONS across creation.

What has Lucifer done to put him in that league powerwise? Who was the most powerful person Lucifer has defeated to make you think he wouldn't get annihilated by CK.

What were "Peak" Lucifer's best fights and feats? I'll wait.

Golgo13
Lucifer easily.

leonidas
(a)

Originally posted by leonidas
so, is there actual proof that ck absorbed the TRUE multiverse? i mean is there proof that he absorbed alternate versions of 616 and the realms/realities/dimensions that make them up?

and (b) didn't thor hurt ck with a lightning bolt.....? and didn't lucifer, simply by arriving, destroy the mansions of silence? these were a variety of different dimensions iirc. they couldn't even support his presence--he destroyed them just by being there.....

zopzop
Originally posted by leonidas
and (b) didn't thor hurt ck with a lightning bolt.....?
He startled him because he was too busy brutalizing SuperGod Hercules to bother with the others.



And?

eaebiakuya
I think CK absorved 616 Multiverse. A single multiverse in Marvel Omniverse.

zopzop
Originally posted by eaebiakuya
I think CK absorved 616 Multiverse. A single multiverse in Marvel Omniverse.
A single multiverse that still consists of infinite universes and pocket dimensions.

I should have said "he consumed 98.75% of the mainstream Marvel multiverse". Less confusion that way.

Galan007
Originally posted by zopzop
Uhm, no. Where is this Void outside the multiverse? It sure isn't Lucifer's creation because it's not a Void anymore. It's not Yahweh's creation because it's not a void. Again, you're not getting it. It doesn't matter that it isn't a void. It matters that it is completely apart from Yahweh's creation. Once BFR'd there it doesn't matter if CK can continue absorbing Lucifer's creation, because he'd effectively be beaten via BFR... Just like he was before.

Originally posted by zopzop
He consumed it over time because he was sidetracked killing entire PANTHEONS across creation. And this changes what, exactly? He still required a good deal of time to consume the multiverse.

Originally posted by zopzop
What has Lucifer done to put him in that league powerwise? Molding the raw power of GOD into a physical multiverse. Effortlessly.
Tanking a multiversal big bang. Without a scratch.

And I ask for a 3rd(and final) time: what singular character did CK consume that was on par with peak Lucifer? If you avoid this question again, I'll keep assuming that he didn't destroy a Lucifer-level being. smile

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

A single multiverse that still consists of infinite universes and pocket dimensions.

I should have said "he consumed 98.75% of the mainstream Marvel multiverse". Less confusion that way.
That mainstream Multiverse consists of separate sets of infinite universeS,
each set is an infinite # of universeS of a certain type (eg. 2+ to 6+ Dimensions)
then there are infinite sets of other types (eg. below 2 to above 6+ Dimensions) and so on.
It's not just separate long row of the same,
there's also an infinity of Alternate Worlds, another infinity of Parallel Worlds waiting to diverge.
Then there are infinite Pockets-universes.

All this withIN the mainstream trans-infinite Marvel Multiverse.

So ie. There are groupings of infinite universes within the mainstream multiverse.

Universe 616, is just one single Reality in this madness.

Cogito
Originally posted by zopzop
He devoured 98.75% of the Marvel MULTIVERSE. We saw him on panel annihilate entire pantheons not just on Earth but across the universe/multiverse.

Lucifer hasn't done jack crap that's comparable to that on panel. CK rips off his wings then BBQs that limp wristed punk. CK wins. Happy Dance

Lucifer tanked Michael's demiurgic energies point blank. The same energies that were repeatedly stated to be sufficient to destroy all creation. And enough of this "Lucifer was created to do that" shit. He was created to be powerful enough to do it, it's not some bullshit rule rule God made up that the Demiurgic energy can't hurt him. If you and Quan want to make that claim, you better back it up with (nonexistent) proof.

He warped those energies into a multiverse, and as Galan said, did so effortlessly. He created, from scratch, and specifically just because he felt like it, concepts such as time and physics. Now, if Marvel's Eternity is time and Infinity is space, and both of those are equal to Oblivion (who is > CK), then Lucifer created equivalents from nothing with a casual wave of his hand.

quanchi112
Originally posted by zopzop
And what happened to the void when he used his brother's power to do it?

And how is that relevant to this fight?

Lucifer dies. It isn't relevant at all to any fight. thumb up

leonidas
^^^i'll not get into that debate again, but suffice to say i disagree with that. smile

@zop: so he didn't really absorb the multiverse in a traditional (ie absorbing all the alternates) sense. he basically, over time, absorbed outer dimensions, not even 616, by gaining power to overthrow these random dimensions? which was the most prominent dimension he overthrew before herc returned 'reality' (whatever da phuck dat means....) to normal?

galan's point has never been addressed. who DID ck beat, on paper, who was worth a damn? pretty sure, even if thor caught lucifer off guard, it would mean....less than nothing.

when ck's power is such that he can collapse entire dimensions just by entering them, MAYBE we can compare the 2. as for who has he beaten? well, michael for one.....not too mention he scared the holy crap out of morpheus who was shown to be able to scare the holy crap out of the heads of the pantheons--pretty much all of them, at the same time. you'll say: and? to which i'll re-ask galan's question WHO DID CK BEAT WHO WAS WORTH ANYTHING?

Galan007
^ The most prominent outer dimensions I recall CK consuming on panel were Nightmare's realm and Hell. I also believe that the most powerful beings he consumed were found in these realms as well(Nightmare and Satan, namely.)

Were they even remotely close to Lucifer's level? Christ no.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Epicurus

His Lucifer is, without a shadow of a doubt, the most well-written Abstract-level character in the history of comics ever.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/54328/1034880-beyonder.gif

zopzop
Originally posted by Cogito
Lucifer tanked Michael's demiurgic energies point blank. The same energies that were repeatedly stated to be sufficient to destroy all creation. And enough of this "Lucifer was created to do that" shit. He was created to be powerful enough to do it, it's not some bullshit rule rule God made up that the Demiurgic energy can't hurt him. If you and Quan want to make that claim, you better back it up with (nonexistent) proof.

He warped those energies into a multiverse, and as Galan said, did so effortlessly. He created, from scratch, and specifically just because he felt like it, concepts such as time and physics. Now, if Marvel's Eternity is time and Infinity is space, and both of those are equal to Oblivion (who is > CK), then Lucifer created equivalents from nothing with a casual wave of his hand.
Yeah, he warped his BROTHER'S power to create a universe. Something he was meant to do as God's Will. This thread isn't Lucifer AND Michael (he'd beat both of them btw) vs CK. This is LUCIFER vs CK. Lucifer is out of his league here.

And CK didn't just destroy 1 universe. He devoured 98.75% of mainstream Marvel MULTIVERSE. This included entire Pantheons throughout creation. Get back to me when Lucifer does something under his own power.
Originally posted by leonidas
^^^i'll not get into that debate again, but suffice to say i disagree with that. smile

@zop: so he didn't really absorb the multiverse in a traditional (ie absorbing all the alternates) sense. he basically, over time, absorbed outer dimensions, not even 616, by gaining power to overthrow these random dimensions? which was the most prominent dimension he overthrew before herc returned 'reality' (whatever da phuck dat means....) to normal?

galan's point has never been addressed. who DID ck beat, on paper, who was worth a damn? pretty sure, even if thor caught lucifer off guard, it would mean....less than nothing.

when ck's power is such that he can collapse entire dimensions just by entering them, MAYBE we can compare the 2. as for who has he beaten? well, michael for one.....not too mention he scared the holy crap out of morpheus who was shown to be able to scare the holy crap out of the heads of the pantheons--pretty much all of them, at the same time. you'll say: and? to which i'll re-ask galan's question WHO DID CK BEAT WHO WAS WORTH ANYTHING?
But he DID destroy 98.75% of the multiverse. This was confirmed later by Oblivion himself. It wasn't just 616 and it's adjacent pocket dimensions like Asgard or the various hells.

CK was slaughtering SuperGod Herc that RESTORED 98.75% of the MULTIVERSE. Lucifer didn't do jack under his own power worth mentioning. Unless you got scans to disprove this.

@ NemeBro
LOL

abhilegend
Originally posted by zopzop
He started out that way but apparently became much more. It took Lucifer and Michael combined to create a universe. CK destroyed 98.75% of the Marvel MULTIVERSE.

The only way they beat him was by giving him what he always wanted, to be alone again.

As an aspect of Oblivion, probably his most powerful ever depicted on panel, he's not being killed by anything short of a trans-multiversal power. SuperGod Herc, that RESTORED 98.75% of the multiverse, couldn't do it. Lucifer isn't doing anything but dying painfully.

Instead of acting like a 10 year old, prove me wrong. CK was/is a confirmed multiversal power.
LOLWUT? You are acting like a petulant child here and saying that a random aspect of an abstract beats probably second most powerful being in DCU just because he somehow destroyed 98% of multiverse?

Epicurus
Originally posted by zopzop
And what happened to the void when he used his brother's power to do it?
Nothing. The void still exists beyond the multiversal creations of both Lucifer and Yahweh.
Originally posted by zopzop
Lucifer dies.
Explain how he dies, you nincompoop. You are the worst flip-flopper on these boards, so let's see you put some proof behind your ridiculous claims.

Epicurus
Originally posted by zopzop
He started out that way but apparently became much more. It took Lucifer and Michael combined to create a universe. CK destroyed 98.75% of the Marvel MULTIVERSE.

The only way they beat him was by giving him what he always wanted, to be alone again.

As an aspect of Oblivion, probably his most powerful ever depicted on panel, he's not being killed by anything short of a trans-multiversal power. SuperGod Herc, that RESTORED 98.75% of the multiverse, couldn't do it. Lucifer isn't doing anything but dying painfully.

Instead of acting like a 10 year old, prove me wrong. CK was/is a confirmed multiversal power.
It was a multiverse. It was repeatedly implied to be equivalent to Yahweh's creation. Guess what pseudogenius, Yahweh's creation is a confirmed multiverse based on all the parallel universes that were seen during the voyage of Naglfar.

That's quite a flowery way of saying that they got rid of him by trapping him in a separate universe. Lol.

Lol, now highballing Oblivion when only some time back you were lowballing the sh1t out of him on another thread. Flip-flop, just like I said. But anyways, let's put the shoe on the other foot and ask you this; what are the most powerful beings whom Ck has beaten apart from a starved Galactus and an amped Elder God? Because Lucifer is the same being who goes about intimidating and scaring the bejeezus out of beings like the Endless, all of whom are definite multiversal Abstracts.

Epicurus
Originally posted by operator616
^ Fenris is no abstract. Come on. Sure, he was stated to be an embodiment of destruction, but his portrayal was certainly not abstract-level.
Fenris isn't an Abstract, as opr noted. But Dream is. And anyone who's read Sandman would be aware of the MASSIVE scale of power which Dream operates at. And they would also know how Dream was scared like a kitten at the mere prospect of having to meet Lucifer when the latter was going to close the gates of Hell.

Epicurus
Originally posted by Golgo13
Starlin's Synnar comes close. shifty
Are you high? Honest to god question. Because nothing, and I mean nothing, ever written by Starlin, especially in recent times, comes close to the type of work which Carey did on Lucifer.

Epicurus
Originally posted by NemeBro

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/54328/1034880-beyonder.gif
I am talking about the quality of writing for a character, jackass. Not power levels.

Epicurus
Originally posted by leonidas
(a)



and (b) didn't thor hurt ck with a lightning bolt.....? and didn't lucifer, simply by arriving, destroy the mansions of silence? these were a variety of different dimensions iirc. they couldn't even support his presence--he destroyed them just by being there.....
Yes. He initially tried to avoid going in since his mere presence would have shattered that entire realm to bits, but when the Naglfar crew proved their ineptitude at rescuing Elaine, Lucy had to step in himself to get his hands dirty.

There was even a lot of talk about it heaven, with all the angels being shocked at this act of genocide of the billions of souls that resided there(souls have been mentioned to be indestructible in that series, mind you) and how it was supposedly low even for Lucifer and all that jaz.

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

But he DID destroy 98.75% of the multiverse.

It wasn't just 616 and it's adjacent pocket dimensions like Asgard or the various hells.

Asgard and every other "Pocket" is located outside 616.

So if you're located in 616 and you can touch/affect a Pantheon realm,
you are literally exercising power Far beyond the 616 universe.

--------------------------------------------

Here, Odin clearly differentiates the Universe which contains Earth-616,
with the Pocket-Universe that contains Asgard. (known as "Asgard Space" or the "Sea of Space"wink



--------------------------------------------

Asgard is in a "Distant" Pocket-Universe, it is ... another "Plane of Reality"



--------------------------------------------

But, Asgard isn't just outside 616, it is "Far beyond" 616's space-time:



--------------------------------------------


So how far, how distant from 616 is the Pocket reality containing Asgard?

"Far beyond!" ... o.k. ... But what does that mean?

That means there's an Infinite void between Asgard and Earth-616:

leonidas
Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah, he warped his BROTHER'S power to create a universe. Something he was meant to do as God's Will. This thread isn't Lucifer AND Michael (he'd beat both of them btw) vs CK. This is LUCIFER vs CK. Lucifer is out of his league here.

And CK didn't just destroy 1 universe. He devoured 98.75% of mainstream Marvel MULTIVERSE. This included entire Pantheons throughout creation. Get back to me when Lucifer does something under his own power.

But he DID destroy 98.75% of the multiverse. This was confirmed later by Oblivion himself. It wasn't just 616 and it's adjacent pocket dimensions like Asgard or the various hells.

CK was slaughtering SuperGod Herc that RESTORED 98.75% of the MULTIVERSE. Lucifer didn't do jack under his own power worth mentioning. Unless you got scans to disprove this.

@ NemeBro
LOL

he'd beat them BOTH! lol sometimes you do go a bit off the deep end. you keep saying he warped michael's power for his feat, but lucifer actually defeated michael once in battle. what's that tell you? then the scope of the 'multiverses' being discussed here are VASTLY different. the vertigo 'creation' is a FULL-ON Multiverse--i mean complete with infinite alternate versions of the earth dimension AND all other dimensions minus a couple (i assume) rare exceptions. ck didn't even absorb all of the 616-related multiverse. it is not at all illogical to assume that the lucifer creation is actually INFINITELY larger than the little mutliverse ck absorbed, just as the marvel Multiverse, complete with alternate earth dimensions and all it corollaries, would likewise be infinitely larger.

he gathered power slowly, beat some minor, b-list cosmics, took over their pocket realms and grew more powerful still. i'd wager at the end, if you really consider what the 616 'creation' contains/is associated with, that ck was STILL weaker than eternity/oblivion/infinity/death. if you don't think so, prove it. smile

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas

ck didn't even absorb all of the 616-related multiverse.
The story related to the Multiverse, the one and only prime Multiverse.

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17503450_CK__Eternity2.jpg

... over 98% of this trans-infinity was absorbed ... that's pretty uber.
Originally posted by leonidas

i'd wager at the end,

that ck was STILL weaker than eternity/oblivion/infinity/death.

if you don't think so, prove it.
Well, don't bet too much good friend:

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17503449_CK__Eternity.jpg

According to Eternity itself ... CK/Oblivion and Eternity are equals. ... Oblivion = CK

The "darkness before existence" (is the pre-big bang void where the omniverse was born)
Eternity says CK is the void against which he is defined. (two sides of the same coin)

"I fight him, I fight myself"

Cogito
Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah, he warped his BROTHER'S power to create a universe. Something he was meant to do as God's Will. This thread isn't Lucifer AND Michael (he'd beat both of them btw) vs CK. This is LUCIFER vs CK. Lucifer is out of his league here.

You keep repeating the same broken tune. So what if God created him with the purpose of creating the mutliverse? He has the power to do so, and has done so, and that's all that matters. Who the phuck cares if he was "meant to do it"

Originally posted by zopzop
And CK didn't just destroy 1 universe. He devoured 98.75% of mainstream Marvel MULTIVERSE. This included entire Pantheons throughout creation. Get back to me when Lucifer does something under his own power.

But he DID destroy 98.75% of the multiverse. This was confirmed later by Oblivion himself. It wasn't just 616 and it's adjacent pocket dimensions like Asgard or the various hells.

CK was slaughtering SuperGod Herc that RESTORED 98.75% of the MULTIVERSE. Lucifer didn't do jack under his own power worth mentioning. Unless you got scans to disprove this.

Who gives a shit about pantheons and 98.75% of the multiverse? Lucifer was more powerful than all of Heaven's infinite forces combined (barring Michael), as was repeatedly stated. Lucifer was more powerful than the Endless, among the highest abstracts in the DCU, as was repeatedly stated. Lucifer took raw energy and created 100% of a multiverse, including time and physics from scratch, with zero effort. Chaos Kings efforts took time, because he isn't powerful enough to do what he did instantly. Lucifer merely waves a hand.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Mr Master
http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17503449_CK__Eternity.jpg

According to Eternity itself ... CK/Oblivion and Eternity are equals. ... Oblivion = CK

The "darkness before existence" (is the pre-big bang void where the omniverse was born)
Eternity says CK is the void against which he is defined. (two sides of the same coin)

"I fight him, I fight myself"

Retconned in Thor annual.
We know what he was supposed to represent in Chaos War but the statement from Oblivion himself begs to differ.

Personally, I prefer what Oblivion stated about himself over what Eternity said.
CK represents an aspect of Oblivion who was, and is still locked in the continuum.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Epicurus
I am talking about the quality of writing for a character, jackass. Not power levels. So was I.

I think you need to calm down and accept that Lucy can't win every thread young man.

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
The story related to the Multiverse, the one and only prime Multiverse.

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17503450_CK__Eternity2.jpg

... over 98% of this trans-infinity was absorbed ... that's pretty uber.

Well, don't bet too much good friend:

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17503449_CK__Eternity.jpg

According to Eternity itself ... CK/Oblivion and Eternity are equals. ... Oblivion = CK

The "darkness before existence" (is the pre-big bang void where the omniverse was born)
Eternity says CK is the void against which he is defined. (two sides of the same coin)

"I fight him, I fight myself"

i agree--the 616 multiverse. thumb up

we know he absorbed 98% of it. we know eternity=ck (or was approximately equal, based on the dialogue.) regardless, ck was NOT definitively greater than eternity, even after absorbing everything he did. if he was, i'd love proof of it. that fact alone should put ck's relative power level into perspective and essentially end this thread.....unless someone wants to show me proof somehow that it was the mythical "multi-eternity" who was speaking, and about whom the story revolved....?

Colossus-Big C
Since when is 616 eternity powerful enough to absorb a multiverse?
And beat the utter shit of someone who can create one?

CK was above multiversal power

quanchi112
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Since when is 616 eternity powerful enough to absorb a multiverse?
And beat the utter shit of someone who can create one?

CK was above multiversal power Since when can Lucifer warp a multiverse under his own power ? He can shape Michael's energies which he was created to do but this is a fight.

Galan007
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
CK was above multiversal power laughing out loud

leonidas
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Since when is 616 eternity powerful enough to absorb a multiverse?
And beat the utter shit of someone who can create one?

CK was above multiversal power

lol

i saw a scan that said ck=eternity (or it was enough to enough that from). somehow though ck could absorb a multiverse. that still didn't put him definitively above eternity. unless you want to clain it was the magical multi-eternity who was speaking....? if so, i'd love to see the proof. barring that, prove to me, or anyone, that ck was definitively above eternity. i'll wait patiently.

leonidas
Originally posted by Galan007
laughing out loud

indeed. thumb up

leonidas
Originally posted by leonidas
lol

i saw a scan that said ck=eternity (or it was enough to enough INFER that from). somehow though ck could absorb a multiverse. that still didn't put him definitively above eternity. unless you want to clain it was the magical multi-eternity who was speaking....? if so, i'd love to see the proof. barring that, prove to me, or anyone, that ck was definitively above eternity. i'll wait patiently.

fixed.

in any event, if it was so obvious, it should be no problem at all proving definitively that ck>eternity.

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas

i agree--the 616 multiverse.
O.k. I don't get what you're debating then friend?

The Multiverse that houses the 616 Universe = an trans-infinity of universeS.

98+ % of that, is pretty big.
Originally posted by leonidas

regardless, ck was NOT definitively greater than eternity, even after absorbing everything he did.
I agree. They were equals instead. "I fight him, I fight myself"

Although, imo, he's referring to Oblivion using the name CK.
Originally posted by leonidas

"multi-eternity" who was speaking
There's no such thing as "multi-Eternity."

multi-eternity is simply 616 Eternity's totality (his essence which encompasses the Multiverse)

In the very same page where "multi-eternity" is introduced, he's labelled "Eternity-The Universe"
even after showing a plethora of other Eternities.

Eternity's 2006 bio also takes credit for the "multi-eternity" scenario.

Colossus-Big C
So ck is equal to eternities totality

Mr Master
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C

So ck is equal to eternities totality
I haven't read the arc personally. I'm going off the scans posted.

I think, CK = Oblivion, which = Eternity, which = Infinity and so on.

CortSether
Originally posted by Mr Master
I haven't read the arc personally. I'm going off the scans posted.

I think, CK = Oblivion, which = Eternity, which = Infinity and so on.

Apparently Chaos King was just an aspect of Oblivion, which is why Oblivion says he failed.

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/17509358_mikoblivion.jpg

Mr Master
^^ hmm ...

I see. The plot thickens as they say.

Well, since I've been discussing this subject from posted scans, well versed cosmic aficionados,
and interesting opinions here and there, I think now it's time for me to exit this debate.

I need to read all these books before further commenting,
cause info keeps crashing against info.

Anyway, I seen that Oblivion scan before, didn't like the 4th wall salt sprinkled on it,
but it confuses me when pasting it together with what I understand concerning CW.

So either the info fed to me is incomplete, or there's something wrong here.
This is why I'll read the relevant issues for myself and figure it out later.

Thanx for the scan though. smile

Sundipped
^
That's what I was trying to tell you on page 5 of this thread.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by leonidas
lol

i saw a scan that said ck=eternity (or it was enough to enough that from). somehow though ck could absorb a multiverse. that still didn't put him definitively above eternity. unless you want to clain it was the magical multi-eternity who was speaking....? if so, i'd love to see the proof. barring that, prove to me, or anyone, that ck was definitively above eternity. i'll wait patiently.

I don't get it though.

Chaos King absorbed most of the Multiverse and was beating the shit out of Super Hercules who even in a greatly weakened state could recreate most of the Multiverse.

Doesn't that by definition mean that if Chaos King = Eternity, then this Eternity is in itself Multiversal?

Trying to give Lucifer the win because Chaos King = Eternity in favor of Chaos King's own feats is kind of missing the forest for the trees.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Sundipped
^
That's what I was trying to tell you on page 5 of this thread.
thumb up
Originally posted by Sundipped

Retconned in Thor annual.
We know what he was supposed to represent in Chaos War but the statement from Oblivion himself begs to differ.

Personally, I prefer what Oblivion stated about himself over what Eternity said.
CK represents an aspect of Oblivion who was, and is still locked in the continuum.
My bad SunnyD, I didn't realize what you were talking about without the scan.

Hmm ... So, I guess we'll have to say Eternity was sorta lying and allowing Herc to shine,
which is probably why he was smiling knowing how things would turn out.

I'm making that up, but what other reasoning is there?
Well, there's always writer's not thinking ahead. Or writers who work stoned

*edit ... Oblivion's feat is pretty bad ass though:
Some measly "aspect" is endowed with limitless absorption capabilities it seemed,
not bad at all. (grant it, it had to work its way up, but still)

leonidas
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don't get it though.

Chaos King absorbed most of the Multiverse and was beating the shit out of Super Hercules who even in a greatly weakened state could recreate most of the Multiverse.

Doesn't that by definition mean that if Chaos King = Eternity, then this Eternity is in itself Multiversal?

give the man a cee-gar. thumb up

616 eternity IS a multiverse. there are scans that prove it, and tons of corollaries that also support it. there is no mention of 'totality' at all. ever in that arc. there are an infinite number of eternities. other eternities are also multiverses unto themselves, just alternate versions of the universes that 616 eternity represents. this is also supported though it's an old discussion by now. ck=616 oblivion (maybe)=616 eternity (maybe). i say maybe because if ck was more powerful than eternity, he could have simply consumed him. obviously it was also alluded to that they were about equal. how did he get to be about equal? consuming 98% of the multiverse. that would seem to indicate he should be way more powerful than a universal entity. he wasn't. why? eternity represents more than just a universe. no need to mention 'totalities' that are never mentioned, and no need to ever ever mention multi-eternity.

as regards lucifer--his creation would be the equivalent of having contained not only 616 eternity and all the dimensions/realities/planes of existence contained in its essence, but likewise ALL the OTHER eternities and their alternates as well. the difference of scale is....astronomical. like i said, this is a bit of an old discussion though and it is not without those who disagree. it is an ENTIRELY SUPPORTABLE interpretation however, that has the benefit of fitting nearly all the on panel appearances of eternity. the use and misuse of terminology by writers makes sorting out the cosmology utterly impossible for anyone, but this is the answer that i find BEST fits all the evidence.

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas

616 eternity IS a multiverse. other eternities are also multiverses unto themselves

616 eternity and all the dimensions/realities/planes of existence contained in its essence
Leo, I smoke good trees, but I gotta know what you smokin? stick out tongue

leonidas
well, we've been over this before and you know the scans that support eternity representing a multiverse--not in his 'totality' (which is ambiguous, leaves it to the reader to determine when/where this 'totality' is, and, more importantly, is never mentioned.....) but just as 'eternity'. it really is the simplest explanation of what we see on panel, and have seen for decades. in this case, it also perfectly explains why ck, AFTER absorbing a multiverse, has finally reached eternity levels of power. not the 'totality' of eternity (never mentioned) just eternity. throw out handbook definitions of realities/planes/etc.... since all terms are mutable and, well, not sure how the conclusion can be denied. least we agree about multi-eternity though.

zopzop
Originally posted by leonidas
he'd beat them BOTH! lol sometimes you do go a bit off the deep end. you keep saying he warped michael's power for his feat, but lucifer actually defeated michael once in battle. what's that tell you? then the scope of the 'multiverses' being discussed here are VASTLY different. the vertigo 'creation' is a FULL-ON Multiverse--i mean complete with infinite alternate versions of the earth dimension AND all other dimensions minus a couple (i assume) rare exceptions. ck didn't even absorb all of the 616-related multiverse. it is not at all illogical to assume that the lucifer creation is actually INFINITELY larger than the little mutliverse ck absorbed, just as the marvel Multiverse, complete with alternate earth dimensions and all it corollaries, would likewise be infinitely larger.

he gathered power slowly, beat some minor, b-list cosmics, took over their pocket realms and grew more powerful still. i'd wager at the end, if you really consider what the 616 'creation' contains/is associated with, that ck was STILL weaker than eternity/oblivion/infinity/death. if you don't think so, prove it. smile
Originally posted by Mr Master
I haven't read the arc personally. I'm going off the scans posted.

I think, CK = Oblivion, which = Eternity, which = Infinity and so on.
I'm sorry Leo but you'd be wrong. It's been confirmed now that he devoured 98.75% of the mainstream Marvel multiverse. Also keep in mind, Death itself fled from CK. Death the Abstract being who is one of the top four abstracts (the other three being : Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion).

I believe Oblivion was lying out his ass trying to claim CK's rampage for himself. How can CK be a mere aspect of Oblivion when CK's creator straight up said he's older than Galactus and Galactus' universe? Why isn't Oblivion pissed that an aspect of himself that powerful is wasting his time in a dead universe? Why can't Oblivion contact CK and tell him he was tricked and to get out that false universe and continue his rampage, if he's really an aspect of him?

Keep in mind CK wasn't killed, trapped, or beaten in the conventional sense. So he can leave whenever he wants. He was 'beaten' by appeasing him. That would be like 'beating' a hungry lion that's chasing you by throwing him 20lbs of steak and then running for your life while he's satiating himself on the food.


Originally posted by Cogito
You keep repeating the same broken tune. So what if God created him with the purpose of creating the mutliverse? He has the power to do so, and has done so, and that's all that matters. Who the phuck cares if he was "meant to do it"



Who gives a shit about pantheons and 98.75% of the multiverse? Lucifer was more powerful than all of Heaven's infinite forces combined (barring Michael), as was repeatedly stated. Lucifer was more powerful than the Endless, among the highest abstracts in the DCU, as was repeatedly stated. Lucifer took raw energy and created 100% of a multiverse, including time and physics from scratch, with zero effort. Chaos Kings efforts took time, because he isn't powerful enough to do what he did instantly. Lucifer merely waves a hand.
Because SuperGod Hercules, a confirmed MULTIVERSAL power, took EVERYTHING he had to merely push CK into the Continuum universe and SuperGod Herc had help.


This isn't Lucifer and crew vs CK. This is Lucifer vs CK. CK plucks emo boy with Daddy issues wings off and then tortures him slowly as he kills him. CK wins.

And I love that certain Lucifer fans are pushing this Void BFR thing hard. It's like they subconsciously realize that that's Lucifer's only hope of 'winning' : Giving CK what he wants.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Since when is 616 eternity powerful enough to absorb a multiverse?
And beat the utter shit of someone who can create one?

CK was above multiversal power
Yup. The more you look at it, the more insane CK's reign of terror appears (in terms of power and scope).

Epicurus
Originally posted by NemeBro
So was I.

I think you need to calm down and accept that Lucy can't win every thread young man.
Then you would know that the Beyonder has nothing on Lucifer in terms of how well their respective characters were written.

Lawl.

Sundipped
Originally posted by zopzop
i believe Oblivion was lying out his ass

You know this is pure speculation right?
It's almost like you're saying there are 2 Obllivion's. One in the continuum and one who would represent a potential void in prime 616. How can that be the case? He clearly said CK came close to fulfilling his mission but failed because "he's not me". CK has to be just an aspect. At the time of this statement, the aspect was/still in the continuum OUTSIDE of 616 the multiverse. In cases like this, we go by the latest on panel statement until proven otherwise.

Also, although CK was content in the continuum, it's not like he knew where he was going. He got uppercutted into the portal which means he was forced.

Another thing...Death was supposedly scared but since they never actually engaged in battle, we can't say for sure if CK would've been victorious. They say Manny Pacquaio and Floyd Mayweather are scared of each other but until they actually fight, we can't claim a definite would be winner.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by leonidas
give the man a cee-gar. thumb up

616 eternity IS a multiverse. there are scans that prove it, and tons of corollaries that also support it. there is no mention of 'totality' at all. ever in that arc. there are an infinite number of eternities. other eternities are also multiverses unto themselves, just alternate versions of the universes that 616 eternity represents. this is also supported though it's an old discussion by now. ck=616 oblivion (maybe)=616 eternity (maybe). i say maybe because if ck was more powerful than eternity, he could have simply consumed him. obviously it was also alluded to that they were about equal. how did he get to be about equal? consuming 98% of the multiverse. that would seem to indicate he should be way more powerful than a universal entity. he wasn't. why? eternity represents more than just a universe. no need to mention 'totalities' that are never mentioned, and no need to ever ever mention multi-eternity.

as regards lucifer--his creation would be the equivalent of having contained not only 616 eternity and all the dimensions/realities/planes of existence contained in its essence, but likewise ALL the OTHER eternities and their alternates as well. the difference of scale is....astronomical. like i said, this is a bit of an old discussion though and it is not without those who disagree. it is an ENTIRELY SUPPORTABLE interpretation however, that has the benefit of fitting nearly all the on panel appearances of eternity. the use and misuse of terminology by writers makes sorting out the cosmology utterly impossible for anyone, but this is the answer that i find BEST fits all the evidence.

Again, you're using a comparison in favor of the actual scale. The Chaos King was going on to consume everything in that story. If the writer considered Eternity his equal, at least earlier on into his rampage, that means he considers Eternity a Multiversal power as well. This is just my take on it, but he also seemed to consider Eternity/Infinity/Living Tribunal as similar beings:
http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/igniz5/media/CKDarkHalfofEternity2.jpg.html?t=1303174639

I'm sorry Leo, but this stance doesn't make any sense to me in light of the evidence. I think the Chaos King absorbed the actual MULTIVERSE not the 616 and it's adjacent dimensions or anything. It's outright been said the Chaos King is a threat to all UNIVERSES and to reality itself on different occasions during that arc:
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j351/igniz5/CKThreatensAllofRealities.jpg

Even Death herself ran away from this reality. I ADMIT that Universe/Multiverse was used interchangeably at times in this story (Like others) but the scale that the writer intended for the Chaos King to operate on was very clear. I mean, even in the Oblivion story later on, it's outright said that the Chaos King came very close to the annihilation of everything (All Universes), further confirming it:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17509358/mikoblivion.jpg.html

So as a result, I don't think there was any difference in scale between Lucifer and Mikaboshi at all. Not sure who wins the fight however.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Another thing...Death was supposedly scared but since they never actually engaged in battle, we can't say for sure if CK would've been victorious. They say Manny Pacquaio and Floyd Mayweather are scared of each other but until they actually fight, we can't claim a definite would be winner.

Eh, perhaps, but usually when an Abstract, or pretty much anyone, literally flees in fear of a confrontation, especially something like Death, I wouldn't favor it's chances in an actual fight.

zopzop
Originally posted by Sundipped
You know this is pure speculation right?
It's almost like you're saying there are 2 Obllivion's. One in the continuum and one who would represent a potential void in prime 616. How can that be the case? He clearly said CK came close to fulfilling his mission but failed because "he's not me". CK has to be just an aspect. At the time of this statement, the aspect was/still in the continuum OUTSIDE of 616 the multiverse. In cases like this, we go by the latest on panel statement until proven otherwise.

Also, although CK was content in the continuum, it's not like he knew where he was going. He got uppercutted into the portal which means he was forced.

Another thing...Death was supposedly scared but since they never actually engaged in battle, we can't say for sure if CK would've been victorious. They say Manny Pacquaio and Floyd Mayweather are scared of each other but until they actually fight, we can't claim a definite would be winner.
Well there was a time there were TWO Anomalies so why couldn't there be two Oblivions? Not that I believe CK is truly an aspect of Oblivion in the literal sense. Too much inconsistencies with that theory AND the guy who said it is a) a notorious idiot (see Cosmos in Collision and the GLA arc), b) admitted to mixing lies and truth as he was narrating the story.

He was uppercutted but there was nothing to hold him there (we've already seen he can travel between universes and dimensions). That was SuperGod Hercs final blow and it didn't put him down. The only reason he stayed was because he thought he finally achieved his goal and was at peace.

And it was stated and SHOWN ON PANEL (by the fact that beings that were supposed to be dead were coming alive) that Death really DID flee from CK. How can this be if he's merely an aspect of Oblivion? Death/Oblivion/Eternity/Infinity are peers. Hell Oblivion couldn't even beat Infinity in a straight up fight despite having home field advantage AND the more powerful Avatar in Maelstrom. Not to mention the best all this power was going to accomplish was to crush 616 reality into a singularity as opposed to CK's 98.75% destruction of the MULTIVERSE.

operator616
Originally posted by zopzop
Also keep in mind, Death itself fled from CK. Death the Abstract being who is one of the top four abstracts (the other three being : Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion).


That doesn't mean anything. Death also fled from Walker, would you say he can take on Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion? (I hope not).

She just has a habit of fleeing instead of engaging her opponent. Same thing happened with Inbetweener, she didn't attack him, and instead went away.

zopzop
Originally posted by operator616
That doesn't mean anything. Death also fled from Walker, would you say he can take on Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion? (I hope not).
She didn't flee from Walker because of fear of him. She fled because she didn't want to hurt him but he pushed his luck too far (by torturing Rick Jones) and Death put her foot down in anger. It's stated on panel.


Something in the IB's nature compels her to obey when he calls. She didn't flee, she went away angry. And she held that grudge all the way till Thanos Quest.

leonidas
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Again, you're using a comparison in favor of the actual scale.

i'm not sure i understand what you're saying here. i'm trying to establish scale AS a comparison. not really sure how else to try and show the difference in the characters given the vastly different set ups of their respective companies. i'll try and clarify below.



i agree completely. thumb up



thumb up hard to say how he considered LT relative to the others but it's common knowledge here that LT>>eternity even if he sort of lumped them together.



lol no need to apologize. this stance you've taken is a difficult one to argue because you're arguing intent. it is your opinion that the writer intended that ck be a threat to ALL of marvel--past, present, future, alternates, everything, correct? if that's your stance, i can't really argue it. all i can do is indicate that the terms universes, realities, etc.... even multiverse, are ambiguous at best. for example--if for the sake of argument we use my own definition of a multiverse--ie, eternity represents the prime multiverse--then nothing in any of the scans is contradicted. there is no mention of alternates being threatened. there is no proof to indicate that was the scope of ck's power. he is apparently an aspect of an eternity level being. perhaps he was more powerful, maybe not. death's seeming fear is pretty impressive (btw does someone have that scan?)--lucifer treated death of the ENDLESS as a child. if we look at death (in marvel) as universal, death (endless) is a proven multiversal being. again, a vast difference in implied power.



again, it's the terminology that i find mostly meaningless. all reality. all universes. all creation. reality. they're so overused and have been misused so often that they are almost devoid of meaning. in marvel though, we DO know that there are scopes of power BEYOND multiversal. LT oversees multiverseS. in their battle, beyonder and owen comment on myriad multiverseS. the omniverse has been confirmed many times as representing all multiverseS--that includes all universes and their alternates, past and present. was it intended that ck had absorbed 98% of the OMNIVERSE? not imo. if that's your opinion, thumb up it's just not something that is supported on panel, and it's not a scope i'm at all comfortable attributing to a being who started as a god, and is an aspect of a universal level being.



cool. i see the difference in scale as that of the omniverse vs multiverse. it doesn't translate perfectly because of the set ups, but i think it's close enough, and a viable stance to take. i guess it boils down to the idea that there were clearer ways for the writer to indicate ck's scope of power. to me, it appears it stayed on, or about, the eternity level.

now, it's easy to say the writer didn't know about the omniverse, maybe he used multiverse to mean omniverse. maybe he intended eternity to represent the omniverse! lol who knows i suppose. read eternity's bio--he represents 'everything'. marvel and its terminology.....anyway, if that's your feeling, cool, can't really argue it. ck was powerful, no doubt. MAYBE greater than eternity. but even if he was, that by no means indicates he is on the level of power lucifer operates on. imo.

leonidas
Originally posted by zopzop
I'm sorry Leo but you'd be wrong. It's been confirmed now that he devoured 98.75% of the mainstream Marvel multiverse. Also keep in mind, Death itself fled from CK. Death the Abstract being who is one of the top four abstracts (the other three being : Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion).

that's not bad, but it is an ambiguous feat at best. lucifer>>death of the endless. that's a more impressive statement than claiming ck MIGHT be greater than a universal entity....



i think you're looking at the term aspect incorrectly. in the strictest sense, ss's power is an aspect of galactus. aspects can be small and grow on their own as well. i don't think the retcon really meant anything at all tbh.



lol he could try. just because herc (who was never shown to be>an eternity level entity) couldn't kill him, doesn't mean lucifer couldn't. at all. the only being in all of dc who was proven capable of coming CLOSE to doing what you suggested was lucifer himself. he was a virtual equal to michael, who's power you should know well. i have no idea what this void idea is, but imo, lucifer would literally grab ck and burn him to ash. no bfr necessary.



threatening the multiverse is clearly impressive, but i'd put guys like owen, beyonder (the version that battled owen) above him. i'd put IG above him. hell, even dormmamu did more when he defeated eternity the second time. there are confirmed omniversal threats in the excalibur series as well. he falls in a select group, but that doesn't mean he is beating lucifer. at all.

operator616
Originally posted by zopzop

She didn't flee from Walker because of fear of him. She fled because she didn't want to hurt him but he pushed his luck too far (by torturing Rick Jones) and Death put her foot down in anger. It's stated on panel.

Something in the IB's nature compels her to obey when he calls. She didn't flee, she went away angry. And she held that grudge all the way till Thanos Quest.

And when did i say she fled in fear? In fact, i clearly said that it's a habit of hers. Now, Death fled from Walker (for her own reasons), hid in a vulnerable form, and in the end Thanos says that she could have taken Walker's life all along. So, im asking you, what does Death fleeing from CK prove, exactly? That she fled from him just like she did from others well below her power?

....IB's nature has nothing to do with Death, he summoned her only because he has the ability to summon one's polar opposite. Stated on panel. Yes she was very angry, doesn't change the fact she fled. No arguing about it.

zopzop
Originally posted by operator616
And when did i said she fled in fear? In fact, i clearly said that it's a habit of hers. Now, Death fled from Walker (for her own reasons), hid in a vulnerable form, and in the end Thanos says that she could have taken Walker's life all along. So, im asking you, what does Death fleeing from CK prove, exactly? That she fled from him just like she did from others well below her power?
We were given the reason why Death fled from Walker, so as not to hurt him. She didn't leave reality because of it because things were still going about the natural order.

We saw Death leave reality altogether when CK showed his face. Dead people were rising and those that should have died were stuck in some odd coma.

Do you see a difference?


She didn't flee the IB, he dismissed her!

zopzop
Originally posted by leonidas
that's not bad, but it is an ambiguous feat at best. lucifer>>death of the endless. that's a more impressive statement than claiming ck MIGHT be greater than a universal entity....



i think you're looking at the term aspect incorrectly. in the strictest sense, ss's power is an aspect of galactus. aspects can be small and grow on their own as well. i don't think the retcon really meant anything at all tbh.



lol he could try. just because herc (who was never shown to be>an eternity level entity) couldn't kill him, doesn't mean lucifer couldn't. at all. the only being in all of dc who was proven capable of coming CLOSE to doing what you suggested was lucifer himself. he was a virtual equal to michael, who's power you should know well. i have no idea what this void idea is, but imo, lucifer would literally grab ck and burn him to ash. no bfr necessary.



threatening the multiverse is clearly impressive, but i'd put guys like owen, beyonder (the version that battled owen) above him. i'd put IG above him. hell, even dormmamu did more when he defeated eternity the second time. there are confirmed omniversal threats in the excalibur series as well. he falls in a select group, but that doesn't mean he is beating lucifer. at all.
Leo, I don't get what's so hard to understand? He destroyed 98.75% of the MULTIVERSE stated on panel and his handbook entry. It doesn't get plainer than that.

His opponent, SuperGod Hercules, had the power to RESTORE 98.75% of the multiverse and yet he was no match for CK.

Lucifer's most impressive feat has him manipulating his dying brother's power to create a new reality. That's it.

How is Lucifer going to kill a Void being? When has Lucifer killed or beaten anyone on CK's level? Lucifer has exploitable weaknesses though, I hear removing those wings makes angels into little b|tches.

And for people downplaying the fact that CK annihilated and SG Herc later recreated all those pantheons during Chaos War, keep in mind the only reason SuperGod Hercules got all that power was from FOUR objects of power from various pantheons : Amrita, Ambrosia, Golden Apples, Thoth's Scrolls. Four items from Earth's pantheons created a multiversal level being.

operator616
^ And who do you think is capable of cutting his wings? He cut them willingly.

Originally posted by zopzop

We were given the reason why Death fled from Walker, so as not to hurt him. She didn't leave reality because of it because things were still going about the natural order.

We saw Death leave reality altogether when CK showed his face. Dead people were rising and those that should have died were stuck in some odd coma.

Do you see a difference?


Hmm......is that why Death hid in a mortal/vulnerable form?:

http://i.imgur.com/B6qCO4N.jpg

.....because if Death dies, i doubt things would be about the natural order.

Still avoiding the question, i see. Death fled from CK, cool. She also fled from Walker and Inbetweener (instead of confronting him).

Originally posted by zopzop

She didn't flee the IB, he dismissed her!

Something like that, although it could be said that she fled from him since she didn't confront him later even. Her anger was seen in the Silver Surfer issues, before Thanos Quest, and then up to Thanos quest as you said.

Sundipped
Originally posted by zopzop
Well there was a time there were TWO Anomalies so why couldn't there be two Oblivions? Not that I believe CK is truly an aspect of Oblivion in the literal sense. Too much inconsistencies with that theory AND the guy who said it is a) a notorious idiot (see Cosmos in Collision and the GLA arc), b) admitted to mixing lies and truth as he was narrating the story.

When were there two abstract anomalies co-existing aside from alternate versions of the cosmic compass? Gruenwald was your boy when you used to try to defend Malestrom now you turn your back on him? laughing out loud Anyway, he wasn't the one who wrote the Thor Annual so now we can take safety in Oblivions statement.

Originally posted by zopzop
He was uppercutted but there was nothing to hold him there (we've already seen he can travel between universes and dimensions). That was SuperGod Hercs final blow and it didn't put him down. The only reason he stayed was because he thought he finally achieved his goal and was at peace.

You have no evidence that he can travel back and forth from the continuum at will. Amadeus said it was on the far end outside of the multiverse. Even Galactus struggled trying to hold the portal open and wondered how in the hell could anyone even transverse the "infinite gulf".

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b571/superior100/67185f96-70e8-40a7-a2c7-572d0e779c99_zps1d98e51c.jpg

I know why he stayed but at first is seemed like you were trying to imply that he willingly went along with the heroes plan which is definitely not what happened.

Originally posted by zopzop
And it was stated and SHOWN ON PANEL (by the fact that beings that were supposed to be dead were coming alive) that Death really DID flee from CK. How can this be if he's merely an aspect of Oblivion? Death/Oblivion/Eternity/Infinity are peers. Hell Oblivion couldn't even beat Infinity in a straight up fight despite having home field advantage AND the more powerful Avatar in Maelstrom. Not to mention the best all this power was going to accomplish was to crush 616 reality into a singularity as opposed to CK's 98.75% destruction of the MULTIVERSE.

What makes Death fleeing so absurd was the fact that CK wasn't even at full power when it happened. Death is supposed to be equal to Infinity\Oblivion\and Eternity at peak levels. She also got ordered around by Inbetweener...a being who could stalemate a weak Galactus at best and she has shown powers like stomping Walker (after hiding in a mortal body)by releasing billions of souls from his being. Seems like a viable tactic that could've worked on CK but whatever.

So what are you saying? CK = Oblivion or CK >>Oblivion?
Good job downplaying Oblivion in Cosmos in Collision not to mention lying about their respective power levels. Fighting through avatars, Quasar was show to be evenly matched with Malestrom.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b571/superior100/8df07847-a26a-46de-bea4-f623cd670dbe_zpsf8b5d8c1.jpg

Meh, anyway Oblivion brought Malestrom back to life then empowered him after he died in that black hole. Enough power to stalemate a fellow abstract. Who cares about what Malestroms plan was? Oblivion even said that wasn't his idea anyway. Oblivion has no lackluster feats in that arc for you to pick on in order to favor your " CK's not a aspect" argument.

Galan007
Since when is effortlessly manipulating the infinite demiurgic power of GOD himself into a tangible multiverse so easily dismissed..? It's also worth noting that Lucifer tanked said energies exploding in his face prior to manipulating them. But I suppose tanking a multiversal big bang without so much as a scratch to show for it is no big whoop either, eh..?

g007-psyduck

zopzop
Originally posted by Sundipped
When were there two abstract anomalies co-existing aside from alternate versions of the cosmic compass? Gruenwald was your boy when you used to try to defend Malestrom now you turn your back on him? laughing out loud Anyway, he wasn't the one who wrote the Thor Annual so now we can take safety in Oblivions statement.
No one is turning their back on Gruenwald, I merely said there were examples of two representations of the same abstract before and gave you an example.

I also said I don't believe CK has anything to do with Oblivion and Oblivion was talking out his ass.




He traveled between the infinite universes and pocket dimensions that made up the multiverse just fine. The only reason they beat him was because they made him believe he'd won by BFRing him into that pocket universe. He only stayed there because he thought he was done with what he set out to do.




Death fleeing is absurd if you believe that CK was merely an aspect of her peer Oblivion. I don't believe that. I used to but not anymore.

And yes, I'm saying CK > Oblivion or any other abstract below the LT.

And why are you accusing me of lying about their power levels when you have no clue what you are talking about.

During CiC Maelstrom has his power + Cosmic Awareness + Quantum Bands (and mastery over them thanks to CA) + Anomaly's power. Then he merged with Oblivion to take on Quasar who only had cosmic awareness + Infinity's power. That's it. Yet Oblivion was unable to beat Infinity despite having the more impressive Avatar and despite having home field advantage (they were battling in Oblivion's realm)!

Originally posted by Galan007
Since when is effortlessly manipulating the infinite demiurgic power of GOD himself into a tangible multiverse so easily dismissed..? It's also worth noting that Lucifer tanked said energies exploding in his face prior to manipulating them. But I suppose tanking a multiversal big bang without so much as a scratch to show for it is no big whoop either, eh..?

g007-psyduck
Stop the presses! He tanked his brother's power! The same power he was created to be able to manipulate! :rollseyes:

Galan007
If he was created to manipulate God's power--infinite power--don't you think that would also blanket any energy that is less than infinite..?

I mean, if I can count to 100, I can probably count to 50 as well. Just saying.

zopzop
Originally posted by operator616
^ And who do you think is capable of cutting his wings? He cut them willingly.



Hmm......is that why Death hid in a mortal/vulnerable form?:

http://i.imgur.com/B6qCO4N.jpg

.....because if Death dies, i doubt things would be about the natural order.
But we saw that Death was never really in any danger. Death didn't flee her role in creation and go into hiding. The natural cycle of life/death was still happening while all that was going on.


She didn't flee from Walker. She hid from him so as not to hurt him. She didn't flee from IB, he dismissed her after he was done with her.

She FLED from CK. She literally abandoned reality and was derelict in her duties while CK was out and about.

I find it amazing that you can't see the difference between these three occurrences.

leonidas
Originally posted by zopzop
Leo, I don't get what's so hard to understand? He destroyed 98.75% of the MULTIVERSE stated on panel and his handbook entry. It doesn't get plainer than that.

zop, i get what you're saying. in fact, i said i AGREED with it. where we are NOT on the same page is in defining MULTIVERSE. which multiverse? there are multiple multiverses, proven many times, on panel. so, i agree--he had absorbed 98% of the 616 mutliverse. but there us FAR more to marvel than just that. did he absorb 98% of the multiverse, zop?



i disagree. i think his matching michael, and defeating him, is his greatest single feat. though galan raised a couple others as well.



lol "heard"? man, you should read the stuff before coming across so arrogantly in your analysis..... if lucifer didn't have his wings, maybe ck could take him (he still had all his brains though and ck was kind of an idiot....) that doesn't matter. the only one capable of taking his wings was.....? yep--lucifer himself. his own power is what brought him low. not even the basanos, joining with other gods, could threaten him without his own power doing the work. and you continue to ask--WHO DID LUCIFER BEAT?? the same can be said of ck--who did HE beat who was close to lucifer's level? an eternity-level herc? a universal death? not even close to the morningstar.....



that actually HURTS your case, more than helps it. objects from 4 pantheonic gods was enough to allow him to take over the TRUE multiverse (read: omniverse)??? that....is absurd. mikaboshi would die like any other being could or would die. we have on panel proof (scan was shown i think in this thread) that showed oblivion could be wiped out. if HE could be, ck, just an aspect of him, could certainly be by a powerful enough opponent. someone capable of harnessing and shaping GOD'S power, is just such a one.

zopzop
Originally posted by leonidas
zop, i get what you're saying. in fact, i said i AGREED with it. where we are NOT on the same page is in defining MULTIVERSE. which multiverse? there are multiple multiverses, proven many times, on panel. so, i agree--he had absorbed 98% of the 616 mutliverse. but there us FAR more to marvel than just that. did he absorb 98% of the multiverse, zop?



i disagree. i think his matching michael, and defeating him, is his greatest single feat. though galan raised a couple others as well.



lol "heard"? man, you should read the stuff before coming across so arrogantly in your analysis..... if lucifer didn't have his wings, maybe ck could take him (he still had all his brains though and ck was kind of an idiot....) that doesn't matter. the only one capable of taking his wings was.....? yep--lucifer himself. his own power is what brought him low. not even the basanos, joining with other gods, could threaten him without his own power doing the work. and you continue to ask--WHO DID LUCIFER BEAT?? the same can be said of ck--who did HE beat who was close to lucifer's level? an eternity-level herc? a universal death? not even close to the morningstar.....



that actually HURTS your case, more than helps it. objects from 4 pantheonic gods was enough to allow him to take over the TRUE multiverse (read: omniverse)??? that....is absurd. mikaboshi would die like any other being could or would die. we have on panel proof (scan was shown i think in this thread) that showed oblivion could be wiped out. if HE could be, ck, just an aspect of him, could certainly be by a powerful enough opponent. someone capable of harnessing and shaping GOD'S power, is just such a one.
At this point we're just talking in circles Leo. So this is my final go.

A) It was the MULTIVERSE. Not 616 reality and it's pocket dimensions. The Handbook entry confirms this.

B) Lucifer beating Michael says more about Michael's fail than Lucifer's power. We already saw he really wasn't capable of much without manipulating his brother's power (which is what he was created to do in the first place). Chaos King utterly humiliated SuperGod Herc who did something that took BOTH Lucifer AND Michael to do.

C) CK didn't need those objects Leo. Those objects created SuperGod Hercules. You know the being capable of repairing multiverse wide destruction. That's how Marvel pantheons roll. You don't have to understand it or even like it, but that's what it is. Four objects of power from four pantheons created an abstract level being capable of multiverse wide feats. Yet this same being was nothing to Chaos King. A ravaged SuperGod Hercules was powerful enough to repair 98.75% of the multiverse and restore all the dead beings that CK devoured.

leonidas
was it the omniverse he absorbed? while i'm at it i guess: where was it shown--on panel or in a handbook even--that herc>eternity? who did herc beat to prove himself?

zopzop
Originally posted by leonidas
was it the omniverse he absorbed?
No, of course not.



Prove himself? Instead of restoring 98.75% of the multiverse, Athena said he could have remade it completely and ruled as God but he chose not to.

brownqk
Lucifer decisively.

leonidas
Originally posted by zopzop

No, of course not.

cool. so it wasn't REALLY everything, everywhere then. excellent. i agree. god's power was used to fashion a creation that is comparable to the marvel omniverse though. that power was in michael. lucifer shaped that power, took that blast and in general operated at THAT level throughout. in his creation he WAS the supreme entity. THAT's more than ck ever did i'm afraid.....



and? it's meaningless because we don't know exactly what that multiverse entailed. it still seems everything operated around eternity's level. eternity certainly wasn't afraid of ck. he just saw him as his opposite. fighting him would be fighting himself. that certainly implies equals--or near enough so to not make a difference. despite everything he did, he was NOT definitively above eternity. and herc wasn't even at THAT level.

ck's feat was cool, but ultimately ambiguous given what we saw of his relative power level compared to known powers. he was powerful, but most certainly not beyond someone of lucifer's power.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Epicurus
Then you would know that the Beyonder has nothing on Lucifer in terms of how well their respective characters were written.

Lawl. PR Beyonder is one of the most well-written and deepest characters in comics.

Cows don't have wings because he doesn't want them to Epicurus.

zopzop
Originally posted by leonidas
cool. so it wasn't REALLY everything, everywhere then. excellent. i agree. god's power was used to fashion a creation that is comparable to the marvel omniverse though. that power was in michael. lucifer shaped that power, took that blast and in general operated at THAT level throughout. in his creation he WAS the supreme entity. THAT's more than ck ever did i'm afraid.....
Again you'd be wrong.

The Marvel OMNIVERSE contains an infinite number of Megaverses which contain an infinite number of MULTIVERES which contain an infinite number of UNIVERSES.

Lucifer didn't do jack crap on the omni or megaversal scale. He created a new universe by shaping his BROTHER'S power. His freaking BROTHER'S power. Not his own.




It's been explained to you what a multiverse entails in Marvel but you refuse to accept it. That's your prerogative but don't act like there is no on panel proof that's backed by handbook entries confirming it because their is.

leonidas
Originally posted by zopzop

Again you'd be wrong.

The Marvel OMNIVERSE contains an infinite number of Megaverses which contain an infinite number of MULTIVERES which contain an infinite number of UNIVERSES.

so it's...."everything"? all reality? all universes? all creation? there was a scan that showed it was a collection of all alternates as well. hmm. well, glad we agree. thumb up



his brother contained the power. lucifer shaped it. lucifer has defeated michael in battle. the original 'creation' is an omniverse, as shown through the vertigo line. it contains universes, dimensions, realities, and an infinite variety of alternate versions of the 'prime' universes, some where there are no heroes at all. the endless concepts exist across those universes. all of them. lucifer's creation was intended to be a mirror of sorts, only without god ruling it. lucifer makes the endless s*** themselves, even death. THAT is power, both displayed and implied. ck on the other hand? any proof yet that ck OR herc was definitively greater than eternity.....? still waiting on that. the scan where eternity talks about him SURRREEEE makes it sound like they're about equal.....



you're not hearing me somehow. how many times do i have to agree he absorbed most of the prime multiverse? it makes perfect sense to me. and in so doing he apparently equaled eternity. that ALSO makes perfect sense to me. a multiverse is a simple collection of dimensions and universes and realities and pockets and what have you. infinite on a smaller scale than the omniverse. so? tell me how i refuse to accept anything again? confused

it seems in the arc though, we are intended to believe that ck absorbed....nearly EVERYTHING. but now you're saying he didn't. that the omniverse was fine. so his power was limited to a single multiverse--almost--and what did it apparently get him? eternity level. that all seems pretty darn clear to anyone with some reading comp skills. and to me, it makes utter and perfect sense.

YOU'RE the one claiming ck>>eternity (without proof beyond what you want to call your own 'common sense' i guess....and the ambiguous death scene) you're the one who can't explain how something can absorb 98% of the multiverse but still only be roughly equal to eternity. you're the one who has no proof of how powerful herc is compared to.....anyone of substance, yet continues to demand proof of who lucifer fought. and now, YOU'RE the one who admits that the arc didn't even mean what it SAID it means! ck wasn't REALLY absorbing "everything", all "reality". he was only ltd to ONE multiverse. why stop there? what makes you think it wasn't the omniverse the writer intended? common sense? tsk. you're ham-handedly and transparently forcing an ambiguous feat, performed by a character who never battled anyone of established power levels, to mean what you WANT it to mean, because otherwise it's not as great as you'd like. you throw around multiverse like the term actually has an immutable definition and isn't subject to a writer's whims, and to reinforce the point, your proof: you tell us ck was more powerful than ANOTHER character (herc) who was even MORE ambiguous than ck! and you're claiming your stance (ck>>>>lucifer) DEFINITIVELY!

laughing out loud hilarious. zop, at least have the good graces to say you've never read any lucifer and that you're stance is just opinion based on your ltd knowledge of the characters involved--and on your sig. wink

i understand multiverse perfectly clearly. i also understand there is FAR more beyond that. and beyond that is where you'd find lucifer--outside ck's league.

Sundipped
Originally posted by zopzop
No one is turning their back on Gruenwald, I merely said there were examples of two representations of the same abstract before and gave you an example.

I also said I don't believe CK has anything to do with Oblivion and Oblivion was talking out his ass.

At first you were on his side now he's a idiot. Flopzop strikes again. Those examples are moot because Thor Annual was under a different writer. We'll stick with the idiot characterization though because Gruenwald had Malestrom tank a IG blast even though it was explained that Thanos may not be adept in its use.

Still speculation on your part to think Oblivion was lying in the annual. The instances you speak of that happened before that are irrelevant. Remember, Gruenwald's a idiot.

Originally posted by zopzop
He traveled between the infinite universes and pocket dimensions that made up the multiverse just fine. The only reason they beat him was because they made him believe he'd won by BFRing him into that pocket universe. He only stayed there because he thought he was done with what he set out to do.

Still no proof that he can transverse the infinite gulf that Big G was talking about. CK traveled WITHIN the multiverse. The continuum is located OUTSIDE of the multiverse. Far outside. So far that Galactus was straining to keep the portal open. You're beating a dead horse telling me what I already know about his bfr to the continuum. As long as you understand that he was forced and didn't go under his own will, that's all that matters.

Originally posted by zopzop
Death fleeing is absurd if you believe that CK was merely an aspect of her peer Oblivion. I don't believe that. I used to but not anymore.

And yes, I'm saying CK > Oblivion or any other abstract below the LT.

And why are you accusing me of lying about their power levels when you have no clue what you are talking about.

During CiC Maelstrom has his power + Cosmic Awareness + Quantum Bands (and mastery over them thanks to CA) + Anomaly's power. Then he merged with Oblivion to take on Quasar who only had cosmic awareness + Infinity's power. That's it. Yet Oblivion was unable to beat Infinity despite having the more impressive Avatar and despite having home field advantage (they were battling in Oblivion's realm)!

Death fleeing from an at the time, subpar CK, is what's absurd. And how the hell is CK (a being with 0 battle feats against any certified top tier cosmic who got his teeth knocked out by an artifacts powered Herc) >>>ANYabstract below LT? Don't make me laugh. laughing out loud And before you bring up CK destroying 98+% of the multiverse (via one dimension at a time) and Herc restoring it, keep in mind that does not equate to automatically having the power to best a high end cosmic or abstract battle wise. Slow multiversal destruction/restoration=/=ability to sh!tstomp high end abstracts in a battle setting.

The scan states they were equal....which makes that baffoon Malestrom look even more horrible considering he had all those amps but no cosmic awareness at all which was the explanation for his defeat. What good is all that power if one can't utilize it properly? Dude wound up getting consumed by the Quantum Bands. That was Malestroms phuk up and doesn't tarnish Oblivions status at all no matter how much you attempt to lowball him.

You can reply to this if you want but I don't care to debate it any further. We're entering redundancy and I know you'll repeat the same thing again.

zopzop
Originally posted by Sundipped
At first you were on his side now he's a idiot. Flopzop strikes again. Those examples are moot because Thor Annual was under a different writer. We'll stick with the idiot characterization though because Gruenwald had Malestrom tank a IG blast even though it was explained that Thanos may not be adept in its use.

Still speculation on your part to think Oblivion was lying in the annual. The instances you speak of that happened before that are irrelevant. Remember, Gruenwald's a idiot.



Still no proof that he can transverse the infinite gulf that Big G was talking about. CK traveled WITHIN the multiverse. The continuum is located OUTSIDE of the multiverse. Far outside. So far that Galactus was straining to keep the portal open. You're beating a dead horse telling me what I already know about his bfr to the continuum. As long as you understand that he was forced and didn't go under his own will, that's all that matters.



Death fleeing from an at the time, subpar CK, is what's absurd. And how the hell is CK (a being with 0 battle feats against any certified top tier cosmic who got his teeth knocked out by an artifacts powered Herc) >>>ANYabstract below LT? Don't make me laugh. laughing out loud And before you bring up CK destroying 98+% of the multiverse (via one dimension at a time) and Herc restoring it, keep in mind that does not equate to automatically having the power to best a high end cosmic or abstract battle wise. Slow multiversal destruction/restoration=/=ability to sh!tstomp high end abstracts in a battle setting.

The scan states they were equal....which makes that baffoon Malestrom look even more horrible considering he had all those amps but no cosmic awareness at all which was the explanation for his defeat. What good is all that power if one can't utilize it properly? Dude wound up getting consumed by the Quantum Bands. That was Malestroms phuk up and doesn't tarnish Oblivions status at all no matter how much you attempt to lowball him.

You can reply to this if you want but I don't care to debate it any further. We're entering redundancy and I know you'll repeat the same thing again.
No one called Gruenwald an idiot. WTF are you talking about.

Galactus 'straining' to keep the portal open has nothing to do with it's complexity or location in regard to the rest of the multiverse. He was straining because he wasn't at his best, SuperGod Hercules pulled him away right before he was about to eat a planet at the beginning of Chaos War. Surfer even mentions this to Hercules. He was hungry throughout the whole arc.

As to the rest of your post, it's not use responding because you can't even get basic facts regarding what went on during CiC right. For example : Maelstrom DID have cosmic awareness that was one of the first amps he went after.

zopzop
Originally posted by leonidas
so it's...."everything"? all reality? all universes? all creation? there was a scan that showed it was a collection of all alternates as well. hmm. well, glad we agree. thumb up



his brother contained the power. lucifer shaped it. lucifer has defeated michael in battle. the original 'creation' is an omniverse, as shown through the vertigo line. it contains universes, dimensions, realities, and an infinite variety of alternate versions of the 'prime' universes, some where there are no heroes at all. the endless concepts exist across those universes. all of them. lucifer's creation was intended to be a mirror of sorts, only without god ruling it. lucifer makes the endless s*** themselves, even death. THAT is power, both displayed and implied. ck on the other hand? any proof yet that ck OR herc was definitively greater than eternity.....? still waiting on that. the scan where eternity talks about him SURRREEEE makes it sound like they're about equal.....



you're not hearing me somehow. how many times do i have to agree he absorbed most of the prime multiverse? it makes perfect sense to me. and in so doing he apparently equaled eternity. that ALSO makes perfect sense to me. a multiverse is a simple collection of dimensions and universes and realities and pockets and what have you. infinite on a smaller scale than the omniverse. so? tell me how i refuse to accept anything again? confused

it seems in the arc though, we are intended to believe that ck absorbed....nearly EVERYTHING. but now you're saying he didn't. that the omniverse was fine. so his power was limited to a single multiverse--almost--and what did it apparently get him? eternity level. that all seems pretty darn clear to anyone with some reading comp skills. and to me, it makes utter and perfect sense.

YOU'RE the one claiming ck>>eternity (without proof beyond what you want to call your own 'common sense' i guess....and the ambiguous death scene) you're the one who can't explain how something can absorb 98% of the multiverse but still only be roughly equal to eternity. you're the one who has no proof of how powerful herc is compared to.....anyone of substance, yet continues to demand proof of who lucifer fought. and now, YOU'RE the one who admits that the arc didn't even mean what it SAID it means! ck wasn't REALLY absorbing "everything", all "reality". he was only ltd to ONE multiverse. why stop there? what makes you think it wasn't the omniverse the writer intended? common sense? tsk. you're ham-handedly and transparently forcing an ambiguous feat, performed by a character who never battled anyone of established power levels, to mean what you WANT it to mean, because otherwise it's not as great as you'd like. you throw around multiverse like the term actually has an immutable definition and isn't subject to a writer's whims, and to reinforce the point, your proof: you tell us ck was more powerful than ANOTHER character (herc) who was even MORE ambiguous than ck! and you're claiming your stance (ck>>>>lucifer) DEFINITIVELY!

laughing out loud hilarious. zop, at least have the good graces to say you've never read any lucifer and that you're stance is just opinion based on your ltd knowledge of the characters involved--and on your sig. wink

i understand multiverse perfectly clearly. i also understand there is FAR more beyond that. and beyond that is where you'd find lucifer--outside ck's league.
You believe Lucifer created an omniverse using Michael's power? LOL. Proof?

I just told you what an omniverse is. You can look it up if you don't believe me. There's no way in hell Lucifer created an omniverse by DEFINITION.

On panel it was stated to be a universe or multiverse. And even then it was his BROTHER'S power that achieved this. He merely shaped it as is his FUNCTION.

And regarding CK and Hercules multiversal feats in the CW arc, there is nothing ambiguous about it, you just refuse to accept on panel and handbook confirmation of what went down. I'm tired of pointing this out to you.

leonidas
Originally posted by zopzop
You believe Lucifer created an omniverse using Michael's power? LOL. Proof?

I just told you what an omniverse is. You can look it up if you don't believe me. There's no way in hell Lucifer created an omniverse by DEFINITION.

On panel it was stated to be a universe or multiverse. And even then it was his BROTHER'S power that achieved this. He merely shaped it as is his FUNCTION.

And regarding CK and Hercules multiversal feats in the CW arc, there is nothing ambiguous about it, you just refuse to accept on panel and handbook confirmation of what went down. I'm tired of pointing this out to you.

lol proof? self-evident. the lucifer/michael creation event is the same one that created the primary creation. is the primary creation an omniverse.....? lucifer's creation was still evolving, it had different dimensions, etc. it IS a second creation. if you think the initial creation was an omniverse, lucifer's is/will be as well. btw, you can find at least 3 different definitions of omniverse in comics......

you continue to ignore that lucifer BEAT michael. that feat alone>>>>>>>anything ck did, certainly>>>>>>>>>>anyone ck BEAT in a fight..... ignore that again will you?

and of course the feats are ambiguous. why? because the term MULTIVERSE is ambiguous. you just told me the 'everything' in the arc isn't really 'everything' at all, but rather relates to just one among an infinite number multiverses. someone absorbs 98% of the multiverse and is equal to eternity. wut? yeah, hardly any ambiguity. lol

while impressive, the feat is not as impressive as you want everyone to believe i'm afraid, and there are powers beyond this level. marvel has a few. dc does as well. lucifer is one of them.

zopzop
Originally posted by leonidas
lol proof? self-evident. the lucifer/michael creation event is the same one that created the primary creation. is the primary creation an omniverse.....? lucifer's creation was still evolving, it had different dimensions, etc. it IS a second creation. if you think the initial creation was an omniverse, lucifer's is/will be as well. btw, you can find at least 3 different definitions of omniverse in comics......

you continue to ignore that lucifer BEAT michael. that feat alone>>>>>>>anything ck did, certainly>>>>>>>>>>anyone ck BEAT in a fight..... ignore that again will you?

and of course the feats are ambiguous. why? because the term MULTIVERSE is ambiguous. you just told me the 'everything' in the arc isn't really 'everything' at all, but rather relates to just one among an infinite number multiverses. someone absorbs 98% of the multiverse and is equal to eternity. wut? yeah, hardly any ambiguity. lol

while impressive, the feat is not as impressive as you want everyone to believe i'm afraid, and there are powers beyond this level. marvel has a few. dc does as well. lucifer is one of them.
There's so much wrong with this post, that correcting it, then replying to it is more effort than I'm willing to put into this discussion.

So believe what you will Leo, I don't think either of us are changing our minds on this.

leonidas
there is actually not a single, unsupportable thing in the whole post, so not sure what exactly is wrong with it. the primary creation=secondary creation. lucifer's creation even had its own heaven according to narration. it simply depends on how you choose to view the primary creation. so, yeah, i'm good. and lucifer wins.

Sundipped
Originally posted by zopzop
No one called Gruenwald an idiot. WTF are you talking about.

mmm seems to be a case of selective amnesia.

Originally posted by zopzop
AND the guy who said it is a) a notorious idiot (see Cosmos in Collision and the GLA arc).

This pertains to Oblivion amiright?
Gruenwald was the one who penned Oblivion....remember. Anyway there's no reason to discredit what DeMatteis had Oblivion state about himself + it's the latest on panel info regarding what CK was...an aspect.

Originally posted by zopzop
Galactus 'straining' to keep the portal open has nothing to do with it's complexity or location in regard to the rest of the multiverse. He was straining because he wasn't at his best, SuperGod Hercules pulled him away right before he was about to eat a planet at the beginning of Chaos War. Surfer even mentions this to Hercules. He was hungry throughout the whole arc.

So you still think CK can transverse out of that far away pocket universe? Galactus, a being who has teleported a entire galaxy that was said would take centuries to find as well as teleporting Surfer across the universe with gestures had to:

"exploit quantum fluctuations of the inflation field to open a wormhole between this universe and continuum".

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17530113_image.jpg

And here we have CK not even able to find the Council of Godheads throne room where the heads of the pantheons were without Herc's help. no expression
So now tell me...do you still think CK can transverse that distance?

Originally posted by zopzop
As to the rest of your post, it's not use responding because you can't even get basic facts regarding what went on during CiC right. For example : Maelstrom DID have cosmic awareness that was one of the first amps he went after.

Like I said, what good is the power if you can't utilize it properly? In mid battle, HE HAD TO BE TOLD to use his cosmic awareness in order to sense the ripples across the time stream coming from Quasar due to an "aspect of his personal reality" thus breaking Malestrom's concentration.

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17530112_image.jpg


So much fail here, in that story AND your posts. erm

zopzop
Originally posted by Sundipped
mmm seems to be a case of selective amnesia.



This pertains to Oblivion amiright?
Gruenwald was the one who penned Oblivion....remember. Anyway there's no reason to discredit what DeMatteis had Oblivion state about himself + it's the latest on panel info regarding what CK was...an aspect.

I said Oblivion is an idiot NOT Gruenwald and gave you two examples of his minion outsmarting him. Try and follow.



The Council Room was SPECIFICALLY sealed and hidden to keep them safe from CK view. Hercules knew what they did and revealed it. How does this have anything to do with the Continuum universe? CK thought he'd won and that's the only reason he stopped his assault.




The only fail is your understanding of what was going on. CA was the first amp Maelstrom went and he had it ever since he killed Eon (the first amp he got was CA). Throughout the story arc there were examples of Maelstrom using his CA (like when he discovered Quasar had popped back into 616 reality from the Quantum Zone after his chat with Infinity). The reason why Quasar told him to use his CA during the fight was because he, Maelstrom, had to concentrate to keep the Quantum Bands under control. They kill all non worthy users. Once Maelstrom lost his hold on the Qbands, got destroyed and Team Infinity won. You didn't even read the CiC arc did you?

leonidas
i originally posted this in the cosmology thread, but it seems to have some bearing on what i was saying here, and regarding eternity representing more than just a 'single' universe:

Originally posted by leonidas
well, as i was going through the infinity arc, i came across this scan. i think it helps solidify my universes within universes theory:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/27/cq5c.jpg

"a failed pocket universe resting within an existing one...."

clearly 2 universes CAN co-exist within each other. that would also mean that eternity 616 represents at LEAST 2 universes on panel--the negative zone and the 616 universe. a rather large piece of information imo, and one that seems to strongly support what i've been saying, regarding the multiversal nature of eternity, no?

zopzop
Originally posted by leonidas
i originally posted this in the cosmology thread, but it seems to have some bearing on what i was saying here, and regarding eternity representing more than just a 'single' universe:
I don't understand why you're trying to reinvent the wheel, it's clearly explained here :
http://s27.postimg.org/nrquhsh8j/2432543_omniis1cz2no5.jpg
And on panel :
http://s21.postimg.org/fel7mky03/1226054_omniverse_multiverse_1.jpg

There's tons more of that. But you don't seem to care.

leonidas
@zop: well, (a) your bio is plainly overruled by forum law by on panel evidence. clear as day--a universe within a universe in the scan i showed you.

here dormmy defeats eternity--the SAME eternity he battled in the 60's and what does he find as he descends within eternity?

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/12349133/e2.jpg.html

dimensions, universes, contained within eternity's essence. and here:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/73712/1917665-eternityalluniverses.jpg

eternity reaches for strange and what happens? he sees universeS within it....

reinventing the wheel? i'm just viewing the wheel as it has always been. you can cite a 100 examples that say eternity is the essence of the 616 universe. i'll agree 100 times.

do you understand that? i'll AGREE. so do NOT show me a scan that says eternity represents the universe. I AGREE.

show me a scan that proves he ONLY represents the one SINGLE universe. the difference between us is i don't ignore the ON PANEL PROOF that eternity (and that strange scan far and away predates any notion of a multi-eternity) has, and has for a LONG time, represented MORE than JUST the 616 earth universe. you can call PIS if you choose (not a great defense, ever.....), you can try and force fit some retroactive material into it by somehow saying that is multi-eternity or something. what you absolutely can NOT do, is produce ANY proof that multi-eternity has appeared in any issue ever, outside that lone ff arc.

eternity (as shown above) can be seen as a multi-versal entity. even his bio acknowledges this idea: "He is every living thing and every living thing is him; thus he controls everything in all plains of existence with the exception of the Living Tribunal, who maintains the cosmic balance of power." i don't think i need to tell you how many times "plains of existence" has been used as a synonym for dimensions, worlds, universes, realities. not only that, we now have DEFINITIVE, ON PANEL PROOF that a universe CAN exist WITHIN another universe. so, even if you choose to believe he DOES only represent one universe in spite of the evidence to the contrary, you MUST admit that he at LEAST represents 2--616 earth universe AND the negative zone.

and of course the whole thing makes perfect sense in lieu of the chaos king arc. ck absorbed 98% of the multiverse and only THEN approached eternity in power.

ignore it if you'd like zop, but do me the favor of telling me YOU'RE the one just blatantly choosing to ignore what's right in front of you, multiple times, and stop making it seem like I'M the one ignoring canon material.

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