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http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/56784/1984158-nightcrawler.jpg


vs.


http://www.comicbooknews.us/IMGs/IF_2nd_Cov.jpg



Who wins?

if this is x-force kurt then he beats him for the maj

Hey Sin

is it close?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
if this is x-force kurt then he beats him for the maj

How?

Kurt got tagged by Spidey in mid teleport, and Danny's extra sensory perception and speed is good enough to copy that feat (He's done everything from fighting blind to sensing attackers coming that were still several blocks away.)

Originally posted by byrdgang21
Hey Sin

is it close?



no....current kurt will go for the kill every time, and will accomplish it more often than not, plus he is skilled enough imo to survive a h2h altercation

Skill for skill, he's facing one of MA's elite martial artists...

But even if we spotted him a skill advantage, skill only goes so far. Unless he's had a serious upgrade, he's at a BIG stats disadvantage.

Iron Fist is quick enough to catch bullets, and hits hard enough to drop a helicarrier or give Black Panther brain damage behind a vibranium suit.

Sure, Kurt could teleport off body parts, but to do that he needs to get close enough where he's vulnerable to being hit. And Danny's reflex's are better than Kurts are... (Again, unless Kurt got an upgrade, and a big one..)

Originally posted by cdtm
Skill for skill, he's facing one of MA's elite martial artists...

But even if we spotted him a skill advantage, skill only goes so far. Unless he's had a serious upgrade, he's at a BIG stats disadvantage.

Iron Fist is quick enough to catch bullets, and hits hard enough to drop a helicarrier or give Black Panther brain damage behind a vibranium suit.

Sure, Kurt could teleport off body parts, but to do that he needs to get close enough where he's vulnerable to being hit. And Danny's reflex's are better than Kurts are... (Again, unless Kurt got an upgrade, and a big one..)


him thats arguable...this isnt normal 616 kurt so u cant use the spiderman argument, and all he would have to do it get an appendage which aint hard in a h2h fight

Originally posted by cdtm
How?

Kurt got tagged by Spidey in mid teleport, and Danny's extra sensory perception and speed is good enough to copy that feat (He's done everything from fighting blind to sensing attackers coming that were still several blocks away.) Spiderman is faster and his spider-sense is more effective.


Kurt FTW.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Spiderman is faster and his spider-sense is more effective.

I demand an unbiased second opinion.

How about it, Mindset?

IF 10/10

Kurt will be teleported to hell.

Im well aware of if's uber showings as of late, but overall, he is not faster than parker.....nor is his sensory perception more effective.

He's as fast and his fist is made of iron.

IF 10/10.

I realize that when a character all of a sudden pulls off some impressive feats behind a new run that it catches the eye, but consistency and history Is the key.

Yeah, by any objective measure, he's as fast. His bullet feats stack up with anything Spidey's done.

Davos is inferior to Danny in every way, and even he was so fast, he managed to catch Peter on the chin immediately after getting dropkicked from behind. Spidey commented on his speed being too fast for him to avoid.

Originally posted by namorsubby
I realize that when a character all of a sudden pulls off some impressive feats behind a new run that it catches the eye, but consistency and history Is the key.

See Danny's respect thread. He has impressive older feats as far back as the 80's, in addition to modern stuff.

Originally posted by cdtm
Yeah, by any objective measure, he's as fast. His bullet feats stack up with anything Spidey's done.

Davos is inferior to Danny in every way, and even he was so fast, he managed to catch Peter on the chin immediately after getting dropkicked from behind. Spidey commented on his speed being too fast for him to avoid. street-level mas tag many who are faster for the sake of a fight, but according to all the feats they amassed throughout their comic history, I'd say parker is cleary more agile.

Davo's didn't simply tag him.

He was distracted by Iron Fist entering the fray, had his back turned to Spidey, and Spider Man took the opportunity to kick him in the back of the head. And Davos, unphased (And Black Tarantula knocked out Iron Fist with a similar cheap attack, so Davos being unphased is impressive in itself.), pivoted and clocked Spidey in the jaw, with Spidey thinking to himself that Davos is moving too fast for him to avoid.

It's a clear feat of speed, by the context and speech.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Im well aware of if's uber showings as of late, but overall, he is not faster than parker.....nor is his sensory perception more effective.

In battle terms yeah spider-sense is better, Danny's senses are better over all though.

And no, Danny and Parker are roughly the same speed with any speed advantage to either being very minor. Your argument about history doesn't even mean to much when Danny was upgraded anyway. Even then he did his feats enough to be considered a speed peer.


As for this thread. Any different about current kurt from normal?

Kurt had a tussle with Spidey back in the day and had him on the ropes, while not wanting to fight. He's pretty fast when he puts his mind to it. And he's got bullet dodging feats himself. Like dodging machine gun fire pointed at his back from point blank range.

Danny. Flawless Victory, Fatality.

This old Steel Serpent/Spidey fight is probably a better commentary on how Danny and Spidey stack up than any of their head to head fights, because those usually always end without a winner or have one guy holding back:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/MarvelTeam-Up-063-11.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/MarvelTeam-Up-063-12.jpg

Speed and strength here. Davos, without the Iron Fist or any outside chi amping, is quick enough to catch Spidey's foot in mid leap, and strong enough lift him as if he's light as a feather and use him as a club, than throw him into a tree.

And here's the entire Steel Serpent/Spidey match, when SS has the Iron Fist:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/MarvelTeam-Up-064-08.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/MarvelTeam-Up-064-09.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/MarvelTeam-Up-064-10.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/MarvelTeam-Up-064-11.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/MarvelTeam-Up-064-12.jpg

So Spidey misses with his first two punches, gets thrown twice, and than ends up on the defensive for the rest of the fight until he's cornered.

Kind of hard to say Spidey has any advantage at all, if the best he can manage is to barely dodge what are obviously full power killing strikes, and deliver ineffective counters in return. Especially considering Spidey has Spider Sense, and Davos doesn't.

And like I said, Spidey hit him from behind, yet he's the one who got KOed.

That fight seems to be from a while ago. Both have evolved beyond that point and it's undoubtedly unfair to use those versions.

Lol, and "skill" is always the sorry excuse these writers use explain why spidey gets clowned by MAs who are usually no more than peak human in the agility category.....even though parker is many times faster, more flexible, stronger, and more balanced than humanly possible.Add precog to that and it just makes showings like these ridiculous. He looks like thug #2 out there.smh


Edit:

Not to mention the 10 ton spideys inability to Ko him with both his legs from behind, but then he turns right around and causally kos him

I gotta go with the majority to Ironfist probably 8/10

Originally posted by namorsubby
Lol, and "skill" is always the sorry excuse these writers use explain why spidey gets clowned by MAs who are usually no more than peak human in the agility category.....even though parker is many times faster, more flexible, stronger, and more balanced than humanly possible.Add precog to that and it just makes showings like these ridiculous. He looks like thug #2 out there.smh


Totally ridiculous.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/MarvelTeam-Up-063-12.jpg

Why does Spidey get beaten on by obviously human level thugs?

Originally posted by namorsubby
Lol, and "skill" is always the sorry excuse these writers use explain why spidey gets clowned by MAs who are usually no more than peak human in the agility category.....even though parker is many times faster, more flexible, stronger, and more balanced than humanly possible.Add precog to that and it just makes showings like these ridiculous. He looks like thug #2 out there.smh


Edit:

Not to mention the 10 ton spideys inability to Ko him with both his legs from behind, but then he turns right around and causally kos him

While I admit that isn't a great showing, Davos is NOT a human. He has superhuman physical stats as well as energy manipulation. Him beating spidey isn't the same as some random thug like you claim

Originally posted by cdtm
Totally ridiculous.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/MarvelTeam-Up-063-12.jpg

Why does Spidey get beaten on by obviously human level thugs?

Spidey jobs to martial artists. Iron fist wins here though.

Originally posted by cdtm
This old Steel Serpent/Spidey fight is probably a better commentary on how Danny and Spidey stack up than any of their head to head fights, because those usually always end without a winner or have one guy holding back:
IMO it's just not right to take somebody else's showing and it use it for Danny. First of all, that guy was proven to be too much for Danny in h2h. Secondly, both Spider-man and IF evolved over time. Also, its better to look at fights they had with each other. Maybe they weren't going all out, but neither was Spider-man when he fought the Steel guy. He said he kept holding back throughout the entire fight (which would explain why class 10 haymakers were so uneffective). And he wasn't KOed from that last punch, only knocked down. Not to mention a decent amount of PIS moments including Spider-man getting cornered because of a 6-foot fence that he for some reason couldn't jump over, the missed webline etc because of the obvious "he is the only villain of the story so he must do well against a number of heroes" thing. So imo it's better to use fights Spider-man had with Danny, at least then they both held back, and not only Pete. Also as far as speed goes, even though SM was pretty green back in the day he was able to roll with Steel's kick after it connected. That should count for something. Steel is just way more skilled, not faster. He dominated by applying MA technique/throws/used Pete's own momentum etc. While Spider-man was literally jumping over his attacks, even managed to get on his back for a second. He wasn't fighting effectively.

Originally posted by jalek moye
While I admit that isn't a great showing, Davos is NOT a human. He has superhuman physical stats as well as energy manipulation. Him beating spidey isn't the same as some random thug like you claim I meant that spider-man looked like thug #2.....in other words, cannon fodder.


I'm just tired of writers using spidey's lack of skill as a reason why he looks completely physically out-matched by opponents he has every physical advantage against. His reflexes, strengh, and balance is already several times whats humanly possible, without even adding ss to the mix.

Originally posted by namorsubby
I meant that spider-man looked like thug #2.....in other words, cannon fodder.


I'm just tired of writers using spidey's lack of skill as a reason why he looks completely physically out-matched by opponents he has every physical advantage against. His reflexes, strengh, and balance is already several times whats humanly possible, without even adding ss to the mix. Spider-man often has trouble with trained MAs because of his CIS but it usually stops being the case once things get personal. Most writers aknowledge that.

I know. It's just that the notion that spidey has to dig down or go all out in order to best these guys is annoying.

As far as the actual match up here, I still say kurts teleporting along with kurt already very high level of superhuman agility should give him the win here.

Talk about an old, bad written fight.

Originally posted by namorsubby
I meant that spider-man looked like thug #2.....in other words, cannon fodder.

That's what he is to real men like Steel Serpent.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
That's what he is to real men like Steel Serpent. I don't love you anymore

Don't worry about Stilt, I found a secret weapon against him. Every time he starts saying nasty things about Spider-man just post these pics, that'll scare him off. Trust me, like silver bullets to werewolves.

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/2622/spidermanhx.jpg
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/8557/asmw6.jpg

Originally posted by SamZED
Don't worry about Stilt, I found a secret weapon against him. Every time he starts saying nasty things about Spider-man just post these pics, that'll scare him off. Trust me, like silver bullets to werewolves.

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/2622/spidermanhx.jpg
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/8557/asmw6.jpg

Originally posted by namorsubby
I know. It's just that the notion that spidey has to dig down or go all out in order to best these guys is annoying.

I can't speak for others, but Danny is a solid mid-tier hero who, with PIS low, right mauls top notch MA's. He should be a good match for Spidey anyway. Steel Serpent has always given him a hard time, so it seems consistent.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
I can't speak for others, but Danny is a solid mid-tier hero who, with PIS low, right mauls top notch MA's. He should be a good match for Spidey anyway. Steel Serpent has always given him a hard time, so it seems consistent. How Danny has been displayed recently, sure

Originally posted by namorsubby
How Danny has been displayed recently, sure

Naw he's been a peer of spidey for a while now. He just had shitty stamina regarding his powers. Now that he's upgraded their on equal levels with both being good at different areas.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Talk about an old, bad written fight.

In what way, exactly?

Were the stories where Black Tarantula beat Spidey badly written too? Because like SS he grabbed him out of mid air and beat him on a wall instead of on a tree, and like SS he tanked most of Spidey's attacks.

Originally posted by jalek moye
Naw he's been a peer of spidey for a while now. He just had shitty stamina regarding his powers. Now that he's upgraded their on equal levels with both being good at different areas.

Yes, using the Iron Fist drained him.

And arguing where he stands next to Spidey is one thing, but how could anyone that's read Iron Fist claim he's a street?

Hell, how can you look at Davos toss Spidey around like a discus and claim that's something a street can do? I can't see Batman or Captain America throwing someone like a frisbee.

Originally posted by cdtm
In what way, exactly?

Were the stories where Black Tarantula beat Spidey badly written too? Because like SS he grabbed him out of mid air and beat him on a wall instead of on a tree, and like SS he tanked most of Spidey's attacks.


Eh, Black Tarantula is like class 50 or so, super fast and is bulletproof... him beating Spider-Man on a wall is not a hard thing to do for him.

Davos is just a man. Spider-Man was holding back the entire fight (his own words).

Originally posted by cdtm
Hell, how can you look at Davos toss Spidey around like a discus and claim that's something a street can do? I can't see Batman or Captain America throwing someone like a frisbee.
Because it's a badly written fight... those exist in comics, you know.

It's within capacity of any competent street fighter to take out Spiderman.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy


Eh, Black Tarantula is like class 50 or so, super fast and is bulletproof... him beating Spider-Man on a wall is not a hard thing to do for him.

Davos is just a man. Spider-Man was holding back the entire fight (his own words). Davos isn't just a man though.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy


Eh, Black Tarantula is like class 50 or so, super fast and is bulletproof... him beating Spider-Man on a wall is not a hard thing to do for him.

Davos is just a man. Spider-Man was holding back the entire fight (his own words).

Davos has superpowers...

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy


Eh, Black Tarantula is like class 50 or so, super fast and is bulletproof... him beating Spider-Man on a wall is not a hard thing to do for him.

Davos is just a man. Spider-Man was holding back the entire fight (his own words).

Davos is not just a man. With a borrowed chi source, he is routinely a good match for Danny, a bullet-timer with >class 50 striking power and serious skill. Spidey having a hard time tagging him isn't bad writing, it's a reflex feat for Davos. Spidey thinking he's hitting hard enough to knock Davos out while not actually phasing him at all is a durability feat. It's all laid out pretty clearly.

Where some writers fail to grasp Iron Fist (The Iron Fist/Wolverine crossover is one example), is they assume the chi of Shou Lao the Undying is the source of his powers, and without that he'd be normal.

Not true. He's already enhanced through his internal chi, and Shou Lao adds to it. That's why the Junzo Muto stuff is so disappointing, because it presumes Junzo can walk all over Danny once he steals the Iron Fist chi from him. And it likewise assumes Junzo himself will be easy pickings once he tires from tapping into the powers.

There's plenty of examples through Danny's history to prove this isn't how it works. Davos could never have challenged Danny to steal his powers in the first place if it were, nor could Danny has soundly defeated him in a later two issue comic set.

Remember, Danny had to face and plunge his hands into the heart of a dragon just to get those /iron Fist powers..

Originally posted by namorsubby
How Danny has been displayed recently, sure

And since the 70's, 80's, and 90's:

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/8850/ironfistdeflection.jpg

This older feat has him deflecting 50 flechettes individually from 5 feet away, without getting a scratch.

Given the sheer volume of flechettes and the fact he didn't hurt himself in the process, that's as good as any bullet time feat..

If this was AOA Kurt it would be a STOMP!