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Since I arrive Here I read this notion of WBH being ubber powerful, because He melted Heralds, personally I think this is a silly idea, but I want to get what is the consensus around here, so in order to do this, WHAT IF We replace the victims of Hulk for established Heralds.

This is the scenario

Hulk and Betty are about to bust a planet in the Dark Dimension, but this time instead of Mindless ones, Wendigo, Arm'chedon, Bi-Beast and Fin-Fan-Foom watching the fight. We have Gladiator, GL John Stewart, GL Kyle Ryner, BRB and Galactus Heralds (Terrax, Silver Surfer, Morg, Star Dust)

What will it be the most likely result after the planet buster?

1.- The Heralds are melted due to the incredible power of the Hulk.

2.- The Heralds are fine and they say nothing to Hulk since they are aware Hulk can potentially can bust a planet since 1970

The more douchey guys go for option 2. The rest go #3, but not out of fear.

Originally posted by Cogito
The more douchey guys go for option 2. The rest go #3, but not out of fear.

That is a good point I should remove option 2

it was more than one planet by the way.

it was 3 large objects he busted ,and people assumed the other 2 were moons (i dont)

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
it was more than one planet by the way.

it was 3 large objects he busted ,and people assumed the other 2 were moons (i dont)

I respectfully disagree, I took a hard look at the feat and I never saw the moons getting destroyed.

I see the atmosphere of the planet flying away from the planet, but I no where during the feat I see the moons getting destroyed.

I can tell you for sure the Planet is destroyed, but I can't tell you for sure the moons were.

but I want to know if the Heralds will get melted. We could argue about the moons on some other thread.

Do you believe the Heralds will get melted?

Hulk destroyed them with nothing but the backwash of an attack. It's nothing more than just an opening attack from WBH.

Originally posted by janus77
Hulk destroyed them with nothing but the backwash of an attack. It's nothing more than just an opening attack from WBH.

Are You talking about the moons? because if so, I will rather this to be focused on the heralds, not the moons.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Are You talking about the moons? because if so, I will rather this to be focused on the heralds, not the moons.
I'm saying that however much you downplay it, the feat is even more spectacular when you consider that it was basically an opening punch.

Who knows what damage WBH would do if he got madder/amped.


And as far as I recall, he destroyed the Dark Dimension, Umar even sates this, not just one planet.

Originally posted by janus77
I'm saying that however much you downplay it, the feat is even more spectacular when you consider that it was basically an opening punch.

Who knows what damage WBH would do if he got madder/amped.


And as far as I recall, he destroyed the Dark Dimension, Umar even sates this, not just one planet.

OK? I want to know if You think those heralds will get melted.

I did not open this thread to discuss about the moons, but even if You think the moons were destroyed or the whole dimension got destroyed. Just replace the victims with those heralds stated above and tell me if you believe they get melted.

So, same feat, but this time We replace the victims. You believe they get melted?

Some would be dead, some would be koed, all would be affected greatly. This equivocation about "planet busting" while glossing over how the planet is actually destroyed (and the vast differences in power they indicate) in order to downplay WBH is straight silly.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Some would be dead, some would be koed, all would be affected greatly. This equivocation about "planet busting" while glossing over how the planet is actually destroyed (and the vast differences) in order to downplay WBH is straight silly.

OK, Thank you for your response

Who do you think will be dead? and who do you think will be KO'ed?

All of them would die unless someone can show me something comparable to this...

We know that the heat of said blast was the reason everyone melted. Here we have beings, the Mindless Ones withstanding the temperatures and the pressure of a NEUTRON STAR...

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/MindlessonesNeutron.jpg

Here we also have Nova Prime, someone that has high Herald+ energy attack being unable to even pinch the Mindless Ones skin.

http://m287.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/Mindlessonesnearlyindestructible-1.jpg.html?o=120

They died from the impact of Hulk colliding. I can't see any Herald withstanding what is shown in the scans above, especially with no damage. Lord Marvell had to shield himself from Nova attacks.

You all using Bi Beast, Wendigo, and Armageddon as evidence...that wasnt all that was destroyed...some of the most durable races in comics was destroyed as well...beings that the great Umar and Dormammu can't stop.

Originally posted by carver9
All of them would die unless someone can show me something comparable to this...

We know that the heat of said blast was the reason everyone melted. Here we have beings, the Mindless Ones withstanding the temperatures and the pressure of a NEUTRON STAR...

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/MindlessonesNeutron.jpg

Here we also have Nova Prime, someone that has high Herald+ energy attack being unable to even pinch the Mindless Ones skin.

http://m287.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/Mindlessonesnearlyindestructible-1.jpg.html?o=120

They died from the impact of Hulk colliding. I can't see any Herald withstanding what is shown in the scans above, especially with no damage. Lord Marvell had to shield himself from Nova attacks.

You all using Bi Beast, Wendigo, and Armageddon as evidence...that wasnt all that was destroyed...some of the most durable races in comics was destroyed as well...beings that the great Umar and Dormammu can't stop.

I see your point Carver, but this tells me otherwise.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/AmazingSpider-ManV2057-12.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/AmazingSpider-ManV2057-15.jpg

^Different portrayals and low feat just like every character has. The mindless ones in the issue were in totality mentioned as being too much for even Umar to survive on her own so they must have been operating at a powerful level. They were not being treated like fodder level characters and pak makes that point clear. I could show an example of most of the characters within the OP, getting koed by far less than the attack in the dark dimension. Im sure however that you would be up in arms about how that is not a true representation of them and what not so dont attempt to use reasoning that you would obviously not agree with regularly to denigrate WBH

Originally posted by biensalsa
I see your point Carver, but this tells me otherwise.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/AmazingSpider-ManV2057-12.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/AmazingSpider-ManV2057-15.jpg

Lol...that's a low ft NUT. Their recent, (key word, recent) portrayal is what I am basing this off of. Doctor Strange, Umar, and Nova Prime recently being unable to stop them and them also.walking in the heart of.a NEUTRON star is proof enough of this. Every character have low showings...EVERY CHARACTER (including Superman).

Their average portrayal have them tanking attacks from the entire Xmen...have Gladiator fleeing for help, tanking blows frlm Savage Hulk, Dormammu, Classic Strange, Umar...etc, etc...

Originally posted by Naija boy
^Different portrayals and low feat just like every character has. The mindless ones in the issue were in totality mentioned as being too much for even Umar to survive on her own so they must have been operating at a powerful level. They were not being treated like fodder level characters and pak makes that point clear. I could show an example of most of the characters within the OP, getting koed by far less than the attack in the dark dimension. Im sure however that you would be up in arms about how that is not a true representation of them and what not so dont attempt to use reasoning that you would obviously not agree with regularly to denigrate WBH

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...that's a low ft NUT. Their recent, (key word, recent) portrayal is what I am basing this off of. Doctor Strange, Umar, and Nova Prime recently being unable to stop them and them also.walking in the heart of.a NEUTRON star is proof enough of this. Every character have low showings...EVERY CHARACTER (including Superman).

Their average portrayal have them tanking attacks from the entire Xmen...have Gladiator fleeing for help, tanking blows frlm Savage Hulk, Dormammu, Classic Strange, Umar...etc, etc...

Lest make this fair and put high ends for all the parties involved shall we?

Do they get melted?

Originally posted by biensalsa
Lest make this fair and put high ends for both side shall we?

Do they get melted?

Does the High Heralds have fts of withstanding attacks from skyfathers with no issue along with walking in the heart of a Neutron star or something greater with no damage or worry at all?

What Herald can tank an attack from Nova Prime? If you look at everything as a hole, no high Herald is surviving that attack...if you want to use the lowest showing of every character that was in the dark Dimension when this happen, then yes, some could but it would have to go both ways, we would have to use the lowest of showings for every character involved if you want to play that card.

Originally posted by carver9
Does the High Heralds have fts of withstanding attacks from skyfathers with no issue along with walking in the heart of a Neutron star or something greater with no damage or worry at all?

What Herald can tank an attack from Nova Prime? If you look at everything as a hole, no high Herald is surviving that attack...if you want to use the lowest showing of every character that was in the dark Dimension when this happen, then yes, some could but it would have to go both ways, we would have to use the lowest of showings for every character involved if you want to play that card.

The heralds have survived worse than that and You should know this.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Lest make this fair and put high ends for all the parties involved shall we?

Do they get melted?

Answer stays the same. Some die, Some are koed, all are greatly affected.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Answer stays the same. Some die, Some are koed, all are greatly affected.

Ok, I disagree, as I don't see any reason why the heralds should die, but like I say, this is to see what is the general consensus around.

GL's shield everyone.

The end.

Originally posted by biensalsa
The heralds have survived worse than that and You should know this.

Neutron Stars? Scans. Withstanding Classic Strange and Dormammu level power? Scans.

Originally posted by carver9
Neutron Stars? Scans. Withstanding Classic Strange and Dormammu level power? Scans.

Black holes >> Neutron stars

Then We also have nova explosions and Super novas.

Do you think Hulk produced a force equal to a Nova or a Super nova?

Originally posted by biensalsa
Since I arrive Here I read this notion of WBH being ubber powerful, because He melted Heralds, personally I think this is a silly idea, but I want to get what is the consensus around here, so in order to do this, WHAT IF We replace the victims of Hulk for established Heralds.

This is the scenario

Hulk and Betty are about to bust a planet in the Dark Dimension, but this time instead of Mindless ones, Wendigo, Arm'chedon, Bi-Beast and Fin-Fan-Foom watching the fight. We have Gladiator, GL John Stewart, GL Kyle Ryner, BRB and Galactus Heralds (Terrax, Silver Surfer, Morg, Star Dust)

What will it be the most likely result after the planet buster?

1.- The Heralds are melted due to the incredible power of the Hulk.

2.- The Heralds are fine, they approach to the Hulk and tell him "Welcome to the big leagues, boy"

3.- The Heralds are fine and they say nothing to Hulk since they are aware Hulk can potentially can bust a planet since 1970 lol, you're such an assh0le.

who knows, the guys you listed are built for space travel and the rigors of space.

however, the only guy that came from space and had cosmic power that was killed just like the rest of the characters present for the hulk fight was arm'cheddon, and he was far and away the most powerful character there. when bi-beast and wendigo were amped a thousand fold, hulk killed them when they slammed into the troyjan ship he launched them into, though hulk slammed arm'cheddon himself right through the entire ship and he still survived, even survived a few blows from hulk and repeated blasts from that arm cannon. blasts strong enough to destroy a troyjan ship that was strong enough to withstand bi-beast and wendigo 1000/1 size + a large section of las vagas without issue. yet he melted just like everything present

same goes for the mindless ones; low feats, high feats didn't matter as pak made sure to note how formidable they were to make hulk look good.

some of those guys might not melt for various reasons, but they'd most likely get buffeted by the overpressure and get knocked out

Originally posted by biensalsa
Black holes >> Neutron stars

Then We also have nova explosions and Super novas.

Do you think Hulk produced a force equal to a Nova or a Super nova?

Two different type of things happen with a NEUTRON star and a Black Hole.

I don't know what he produced but it was hellava powerful and I don't think a Herald or trans tier being couple replicate it. Especially with just a single punch.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Ok, I disagree, as I don't see any reason why the heralds should die, but like I say, this is to see what is the general consensus around.

An attack that annihilates an army of high end mindless ones, (which regardless of you saying we should take them at high end levels, the comic actually indicates are operating at their high end levels) would kill and at the very least ko characters whose even absolute highest end durability feat are inferior to those of the mindless ones i.e ( gladiator, Terrax, even Morg quite frankly). This is without even considering the fact that it also annihlated Wendigo, Armcheddon, Bi beast and an enormously amped Fing Fang Foom (amped to world conquering levels).

Originally posted by psycho gundam
lol, you're such an assh0le.

who knows, the guys you listed are built for space travel and the rigors of space.

however, the only guy that came from space and had cosmic power that was killed just like the rest of the characters present for the hulk fight was arm'cheddon, and he was far and away the most powerful character there. when bi-beast and wendigo were amped a thousand fold, hulk killed them when they slammed into the troyjan ship he launched them into, though hulk slammed arm'cheddon himself right through the entire ship and he still survived, even survived a few blows from hulk and repeated blasts from that arm cannon. blasts strong enough to destroy a troyjan ship that was strong enough to withstand bi-beast and wendigo 1000/1 size + a large section of las vagas without issue. yet he melted just like everything present

same goes for the mindless ones; low feats, high feats didn't matter as pak made sure to note how formidable they were to make hulk look good.

some of those guys might not melt for various reasons, but they'd most likely get buffeted by the overpressure and get knocked out

Its really funny because its like Pak was on a mission to annoy anti-hulk battleboard members by pre-emptively countering every point they could conceivably use to demean the feat within the actual comic itself.

yeah, he purposefully made "battle board" hulk as if he was a member of this site.....

I have to laugh at this very concept. I said I want to get a general consensus and so far all the ones I expected to say WBH melts heralds have done it again.

The personal attacks might start pretty soon.

and lol at trying to raise the stock of the mindless ones.

Originally posted by biensalsa
I have to laugh at this very concept. I said I want to get a general consensus and so far all the ones I expected to say WBH melts heralds have done it again.

The personal attacks might start pretty soon.

and lol at trying to raise the stock of the mindless ones.

Lol at you trying to downplay the ft like usual. If Umar, a freaking high end skyfather couldn't stop them in the same comic, why bring up their low showings.? What's wrong with you?

Originally posted by carver9
Two different type of things happen with a NEUTRON star and a Black Hole.

I don't know what he produced but it was hellava powerful and I don't think a Herald or trans tier being couple replicate it. Especially with just a single punch.

Yes the difference is that a black hole has more crushing force than a neutron star.

And what caused the planet to explode? it was an explosion as Hulk and Betty clashed inside the planet's atmosphere.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol at you trying to downplay the ft like usual. If Umar, a freaking high end skyfather couldn't stop them in the same comic, why bring up their low showings.? What's wrong with you?

Mindless ones are magical beings very resistant to magic.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Mindless ones are magical beings very resistant to magic.

They are resistant to "all" forms of attacks. Like I said before, Gladiator fled from them, Savage Hulk couldn't hurt them, Nova Prime couldn't damage them, a NEUTRON Star couldn't hurt them. Stop trying to downplay something you clearly don't have a understanding about. A NEUTRON star packs more heat than a Black hole which is what destroyed the Mindless Ones.

For the record: carver's claims are carvers alone. He's the only one trying to overblown this whole thing and threads like this are just bait for the same shit

Originally posted by psycho gundam
For the record: carver's claims are carvers alone. He's the only one trying to overblown this whole thing and threads like this are just bait for the same shit

Psycho...people already know me and you are not on the same side of the coin...stop trippin.

Biensalsa brings up a valid point, but this thread is mainly a response to your claims that you've pretty much spammed.

I've noted something quite interesting.

In the OWAW storyline, carver said that the Imperiex probes, who had previously been dispatching comic characters left and right, were downgraded when Doomsday and Superman were fighting them, because somehow, they were 'unfinished'.

Not to say that Doomsday and Superman were THAT powerful, mind you, but in his opinion, the reason they were being shredded so easily was due to the probes being weaker.

And here, even though the Mindless Ones were being shredded, its because Hulk was that powerful.

Go figure.

^ Irony comes easily to some people

Despite it being one hell of a feat to bust a planet by impacting another of the same strength, I see no reason why it should be a considered an automatic herald killer just because Wendigo, Bi-Beast and Arm died.

and I don't think people understand just what it is to be on a Neutron star. The gravity is so intense that any mindless one would be hitting the star at approximately 7.2 million kilometers per hour. The resulting impact would do a lot more than blow up a planet and some moons.

Even if they were somehow teleported directly on the surface, the gravity would instantly overcome them and they'd still hit it with enormous force.

It's for that reason that I don't like to use Thor's own resisting and overpowering of the equivalent of a neutron star's gravity. The power in one Neutron star is simply ridiculous and the impact would destroy more than anything Hulk ever dreamed of doing.

Assuming the mindless one are so unbelievably powerful that they can deal with a neutron star (somehow) then the showings against Hulk and Thor are low showings and should be discarded as just that.

If we assume it's a high feat, then no body should be whacking off thinking "WOW they resisted a NEUTRON STAR! Hulk must be really something! "

It was a good showing for the hulk to bust the planet along with Betty. Leave it as what it is.

That's how I see it anyway.

Smh @ at yet another attempt to bait carver and downplay the feat based on no useful reasoning whatsoever.Mindless ones arent only resistant to magic. They have been traditionally described as nigh invulnerable period. All this conjecture based on no on panel evidence is silly. Carvers claims are definitely outlandish and hypocritical at times but the incident within the HOTM arc are self explanatory. No amount of idiotic projection by trollish posters is going to change that. The Neutron star thing of the mindless ones is great and all, but even not taking that into account, there are a bunch of other feats of theirs that demonstrate their durability. We know they were at their upper levels in that particular instance. Pak made his intention clear (to amp hulk hugely) and displayed it resoundingly (at the expense of character I might add). People should just take this as it is presented and cool down with all the butthurt.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Despite it being one hell of a feat to bust a planet by impacting another of the same strength, I see no reason why it should be a considered an automatic herald killer just because Wendigo, Bi-Beast and Arm died.

and I don't think people understand just what it is to be on a Neutron star. The gravity is so intense that any mindless one would be hitting the star at approximately 7.2 million kilometers per hour. The resulting impact would do a lot more than blow up a planet and some moons.

Even if they were somehow teleported directly on the surface, the gravity would instantly overcome them and they'd still hit it with enormous force.

It's for that reason that I don't like to use Thor's own resisting and overpowering of the equivalent of a neutron star's gravity. The power in one Neutron star is simply ridiculous and the impact would destroy more than anything Hulk ever dreamed of doing.

Assuming the mindless one are so unbelievably powerful that they can deal with a neutron star (somehow) then the showings against Hulk and Thor are low showings and should be discarded as just that.

If we assume it's a high feat, then no body should be whacking off thinking "WOW they resisted a NEUTRON STAR! Hulk must be really something! "

It was a good showing for the hulk to bust the planet along with Betty. Leave it as what it is.

That's how I see it anyway.

Butt hurt.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Smh @ at yet another attempt to bait carver and downplay the feat based on no useful reasoning whatsoever.Mindless ones arent only resistant to magic. They have been traditionally described as nigh invulnerable period. All this conjecture based on no on panel evidence is silly. Carvers claims are definitely outlandish and hypocritical at times but the incident within the HOTM arc are self explanatory. No amount of idiotic projection by trollish posters is going to change that. The Neutron star thing of the mindless ones is great and all, but even not taking that into account, there are a bunch of other feats of theirs that demonstrate their durability. We know they were at their upper levels in that particular instance. Pak made his intention clear (to amp hulk hugely) and displayed it resoundingly (at the expense of character I might add). People should just take this as it is presented and cool down with all the butthurt.

Did this happen to be directed at me? If so it's completely unwarranted. But i want to know before I go and make an ass of myself.

Originally posted by carver9
Butt hurt.

No no no no. BUTTHURT was during the general crushing of the hulk community in the Thor vs Hulk-CISless Thread.

^Nope its not at you. I posted it before even seeing ur post

Originally posted by Naija boy
^Nope its not at you. I posted it before even seeing ur post

Alright just checking.

Originally posted by carver9
Booty hurt.

Edited.

^trolling

Originally posted by Damborgson
^trolling

Lol...your argument was full of ignorance. You basically accepted the fact that you ignored everything and just based it off of assumptions.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...your argument was full of ignorance. You basically accepted the fact that you ignored everything and just based it off of assumptions.

Your "arguments" are full of trolling and blatant stupidity unfortunately. Thats why I'm happy you defend the hulk instead of Thor.

If it's such a weak argument then respond to it. show me why if you can.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Your "arguments" are full of trolling and blatant stupidity unfortunately. Thats why I'm happy you defend the hulk instead of Thor.

If it's such a weak argument then respond to it. show me why if you can.

Why would I respond to something when you admitted in your post that you ignored everything about the Mindless Ones? No need to respond since you basically trolled through your entire post.

^ Concession accepted. You obviously can't respond because you know I'm right.

supernman dies screeming like a pussy

Originally posted by Damborgson
^ Concession accepted. You obviously can't respond because you know I'm right.

Naah, not even close because again, you ignored the obvious and onpanel proof. That's like me saying "since the Ufoes was able to damage Thor with a blast, Hulk attack should turn Thor into puddy.

Originally posted by carver9
Naah, not even close because again, you ignored the obvious and onpanel proof. That's like me saying "since the Ufoes was able to damage Thor with a blast, Hulk attack should turn Thor into puddy.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ELFl2_1q7DI/TObn1HnV2fI/AAAAAAAAAaQ/5JkvAtpbv7k/s1600/Not_sure_if_serious.jpg

Me saying that if we use the Midnless ones' showing of surviving a neutron star as their standard durability, then getting destroyed by Hulk and She Rulk is a low showing is nothing more than correct.

You're acting like the hulk and she rulk hitting each other is more powerful than the power of a neutron star. Which is more ridiculous than you can imagine.

Originally posted by carver9 That's like me saying "since the Ufoes was able to damage Thor with a blast, Hulk attack should turn Thor into puddy.

that's not even remotely close to what I'm saying. And you know it. Thats why you are trolling.

Originally posted by Damborgson
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ELFl2_1q7DI/TObn1HnV2fI/AAAAAAAAAaQ/5JkvAtpbv7k/s1600/Not_sure_if_serious.jpg

Me saying that if we use the Midnless ones' showing of surviving a neutron star as their standard durability, then getting destroyed by Hulk and She Rulk is a low showing is nothing more than correct.

You're acting like the hulk and she rulk hitting each other is more powerful than the power of a neutron star. Which is more ridiculous than you can imagine.



that's not even remotely close to what I'm saying. And you know it. Thats why you are trolling.
I have already educated him on the difference between what hulk did and the power our sun puts out

Little ***** must have forgotten

Originally posted by Damborgson
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ELFl2_1q7DI/TObn1HnV2fI/AAAAAAAAAaQ/5JkvAtpbv7k/s1600/Not_sure_if_serious.jpg

Me saying that if we use the Midnless ones' showing of surviving a neutron star as their standard durability, then getting destroyed by Hulk and She Rulk is a low showing is nothing more than correct.

You're acting like the hulk and she rulk hitting each other is more powerful than the power of a neutron star. Which is more ridiculous than you can imagine.



that's not even remotely close to what I'm saying. And you know it. Thats why you are trolling.

In the same issue, Umar was unable to even defeat the Mindless Ones. That's all the proof I need.

Guys, guys, guys...

Let's all agree that Worldbreaker Hulk was indeed powerful and impressive (which he was if we're honest) and likewise agree that Carter needs to stop eating paint chips.

Originally posted by carver9
Naah, not even close because again, you ignored the obvious and onpanel proof. That's like me saying "since the Ufoes was able to damage Thor with a blast, Hulk attack should turn Thor into puddy.

Haven't you made that very claim before?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Haven't you made that very claim before?

Yes.

No I didn't. I don't even use the Ufoes showing.

Originally posted by carver9
No I didn't. I don't even use the Ufoes showing.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yes.

Originally posted by -Pr-


No...I really didn't. Don't know where you got that from.

Originally posted by carver9
No...I really didn't. Don't know where you got that from.

The time when you made the claim?

I will have to address some guys individually specially the guy who always goes into insulting mode

But for now Carver, explain me something because I really don't get it

Let me see if I'm following you.

The mindless ones can survive a neutron star, this was a more recent depiction of them and even though Pak never stated that on his comic, it automatically passes the same level of durability to the HOTM arc.

According to You they are so powerful that not even Umar's magic can't defeat them, yet Hulk/Betty punching force kills them BUT Umar create's a shield powerful enough that protects her from the force that kills them?...... WHAT???

Another thing so according to You. The mindless ones are so powerful they survive a neutron star and they are nearly indestructible, but if Spiderman, Thor, Human torch or Ben Grimm hurt them, then is low showing because they can survive a neutron star, but if Hulk kills them, then is not low showing because, well, they can survive a neutron star and Hulk melts heralds and apparently Hulk/Betty can create more force than a Neutron star, Umar can't create that amount of force, but she can create a force big enough to protect her from the force destroying the mindless ones?

I wonder if the neutron star is a high end feat for them but the showings from Strange Tales, Spiderman and HOTM is a low ball for them.

I really don't get it, please explain this to me and I'm being honest, I'm curious to see what is the logic behind all this.

And if You really think Hulk and Betty create more energy that a Neutron Star, just say it in the open.

Originally posted by carver9
No I didn't. I don't even use the Ufoes showing.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/qwirtle/Untitled-3.jpg

All survive, GL can contain the explosion, Surfer or Thor could absorb it. Shared feat with amped beings wasn't as impressive as some other things those guys have experianced.

Originally posted by Naija boy
An attack that annihilates an army of high end mindless ones, (which regardless of you saying we should take them at high end levels, the comic actually indicates are operating at their high end levels) would kill and at the very least ko characters whose even absolute highest end durability feat are inferior to those of the mindless ones i.e ( gladiator, Terrax, even Morg quite frankly). This is without even considering the fact that it also annihlated Wendigo, Armcheddon, Bi beast and an enormously amped Fing Fang Foom (amped to world conquering levels).

I'll guess I will have to ask you the same thing as Carver and explain your logic behind it.

Originally posted by biensalsa
I will have to address some guys individually specially the guy who always goes into insulting mode

But for now Carver, explain me something because I really don't get it

Let me see if I'm following you.

The mindless ones can survive a neutron star, this was a more recent depiction of them and even though Pak never stated that on his comic, it automatically passes the same level of durability to the HOTM arc.

According to You they are so powerful that not even Umar's magic can't defeat them, yet Hulk/Betty punching force kills them BUT Umar create's a shield powerful enough that protects her from the force that kills them?...... WHAT???

Another thing so according to You. The mindless ones are so powerful they survive a neutron star and they are nearly indestructible, but if Spiderman, Thor, Human torch or Ben Grimm hurt them, then is low showing because they can survive a neutron star, but if Hulk kills them, then is not low showing because, well, they can survive a neutron star and Hulk melts heralds and apparently Hulk/Betty can create more force than a Neutron star, Umar can't create that amount of force, but she can create a force big enough to protect her from the force destroying the mindless ones?

I wonder if the neutron star is a high end feat for them but the showings from Strange Tales, Spiderman and HOTM is a low ball for them.

I really don't get it, please explain this to me and I'm being honest, I'm curious to see what is the logic behind all this.

And if You really think Hulk and Betty create more energy that a Neutron Star, just say it in the open.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
All survive, GL can contain the explosion, Surfer or Thor could absorb it. Shared feat with amped beings wasn't as impressive as some other things those guys have experianced. i don't believe this could, or would happen if those characters were swapped. if anything they'd get a reality check as or after the blast occurs. everyone present is getting rocked by a surprise super shockwave

Originally posted by biensalsa
I will have to address some guys individually specially the guy who always goes into insulting mode

But for now Carver, explain me something because I really don't get it

Let me see if I'm following you.

The mindless ones can survive a neutron star, this was a more recent depiction of them and even though Pak never stated that on his comic, it automatically passes the same level of durability to the HOTM arc.

According to You they are so powerful that not even Umar's magic can't defeat them, yet Hulk/Betty punching force kills them BUT Umar create's a shield powerful enough that protects her from the force that kills them?...... WHAT???

Another thing so according to You. The mindless ones are so powerful they survive a neutron star and they are nearly indestructible, but if Spiderman, Thor, Human torch or Ben Grimm hurt them, then is low showing because they can survive a neutron star, but if Hulk kills them, then is not low showing because, well, they can survive a neutron star and Hulk melts heralds and apparently Hulk/Betty can create more force than a Neutron star, Umar can't create that amount of force, but she can create a force big enough to protect her from the force destroying the mindless ones?

I wonder if the neutron star is a high end feat for them but the showings from Strange Tales, Spiderman and HOTM is a low ball for them.

I really don't get it, please explain this to me and I'm being honest, I'm curious to see what is the logic behind all this.

And if You really think Hulk and Betty create more energy that a Neutron Star, just say it in the open.

The mindless ones surviving and working in a neutron star is definitely an upper end feat for them. However it isnt their only upper end feat and they have a plethora of other feats Overwhelming and shrugging off attacks from the defenders (Hulk, strange, Silver Surfer) nova corps,Hulk again, Umar, draining Dormammu, Loki etc. They have always been traditionally described as nigh invulnerable and physically very formidable. They do have some appearances in which they appear weaker but the fact that it was mentioned not by me but by the author in the comic that Umar could not survive them at that point is the author clearly telling us how physically formidable they are. This is in line with their recent portrayal as well as the majority of their portrayals over the years.

You are trying to manufacture a logical inconsistency so that you can ignore what was clearly portrayed on panel since it is not to your liking but no such inconsistency exists. Umar not being able to survive them tells us about the potency of their physical assault. That assault is different in nature from the Hulk and bettys collision in that it is prolonged and thus we have no idea how long it would take them to take Umar out but we know at the end of the day that she wouldnt survive. Hence her surviving Hulk and Bettys clash does not at all contradict her being unable to survive the prolonged assault of the mindlessones. Additionally Umar being unable to survive them indicates she lacked the offensive output to destroy the ENTIRE army of Mindless ones BEFORE going down herself. This is itself is unrelated to her having the defensive capabilities to survive a single attack that could destroy all the mindless ones.

Umar being able to create a powerful enough shield to protect her from t an attack that killed the mindless ones has no bearings on her lacking the offensive output to put down the mindless ones before she is put down herself. The only conclusion that can be logically drawn from this is that the prolonged attack of the army of mindless ones eventually exceeds the damage output of Hulk and Betty and can put Umar down.

Your whole line of reasoning about Umar being able to "create a force big enough to protect her from an attack that destroys the mindless ones" but not being able to "create a force big enough to destroy the mindless ones" is nonsensical because aside the fact that your characterization of the offensive and defensive capabilities of Umar by the size is innaccurate, their is no direct relationship between the strength of shield a person is capable of creating, and the offensive output the person has. Having the former (offensive output) at a certain level does not necessitate or even imply having the latter (defensive shielding) at a corresponding or similar level. They are both independent of each other and this applies even more so with a magical character who has different sheild spells that they can use that are absolutely unconnected to their offensive output

The Ben Grimm and spiderman feat is definitely a low feat and inapplicable because we know for a fact that the mindless ones were operating at a high level in this case. Whether that is at Neutron star tanking levels or not is really an aside as being at levels where they can overwhelm Umar herself tells us more than enough.

Furthermore, i dont believe Hulk and Betty created more energy than a Neutron star. It is a faulty comparison in the first place since even granting that the mindless ones were at there neutron star mining levels, Hulk and Betty wouldnt need to have generated more than the total energy produced by a neutron star in order to harm them, the same way that Firelord does not need to have produced more than the total energy of the sun in order to harm Silver surfer (who has flown through stars unscathed)

As said before, the events of the arc are straightforward and apparent to anyone looking at it without any biased predispositions.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/qwirtle/Untitled-3.jpg lol

Originally posted by Naija boy
The mindless ones surviving and working in a neutron star is definitely an upper end feat for them. However it isnt their only upper end feat and they have a plethora of other feats

Plethora of other feats??? Besides being described as capable of withstanding the GRAVITATIONAL forces of a Neutron star, there is almost next to nothing on that level.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Overwhelming and shrugging off attacks from the defenders (Hulk, strange, Silver Surfer) nova corps,Hulk again, Umar, draining Dormammu, Loki etc. They have always been traditionally described as nigh invulnerable and physically very formidable.

We must have read different issues because:
In Defenders 1 & 2 they are treated as CANON FODER (Hulk is trapped BEHIND the shield and not even paying attention to them, The mindless ones always attack everything that looks different to them and Hulk is not even paying attention to them, Hulk even last for a while without even defending himself from their attack)

In Defenders #1, 2001 CANON FODER AGAIN (NAMOR and the Atlanteans underwater pushes the Mindless ones back, ALL OF THEM)

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/Mindless/defendersv2001-16.jpg

In Amazing Spider-Man #57-58 & 59 they are CANON FORDER AGAIN (Spiderman, Thor, The Thing, Torch, Cyclops all of them got a shot at them)

Dr. Stranger comic books? MOSTLY CANON FODER AGAIN (There is even a point, in which Dr. Stranger ALONE destroys several of them AND Hulk manhandles like a dozen of them)

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/Mindless/DrStrangeSorcerersupre50-09.jpg

So, while they been stated to be formidable oponents is mainly because of their sheir numbers, that ususally overwhelm the enemy, not because they are HERALD level. But because their sheer numbers, like a Chinese army.

Based on a AVERAGE depiction they are in the metahuman tier ranging from low to high and being formidable because of their sheer numbers.
Imagine a neverending army of Ben Grimm's that is always spawning.

And their highest showing on durability comes OUTSIDE the Dark Dimension. The Dark Dimension that it has been stated that matter is more fragile INSIDE the Dark Dimension.

While MANY of their showings of durability OUTSIDE the Dark Dimension have been at best high meta durability and that is being overly generous as they are moslty portrayed as CANON FODER and this was no exeption.


Originally posted by Naija boy
They do have some appearances in which they appear weaker but the fact that it was mentioned not by me but by the author in the comic that Umar could not survive them at that point is the author clearly telling us how physically formidable they are. This is in line with their recent portrayal as well as the majority of their portrayals over the years.

I'm sure You know they are "formidable" because like I said, is like a never ending army of Ben Grims that suffers from the ninja effect. The more they are the less effective they become.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/Mindless/AmazingSpider-ManV2057-18.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
You are trying to manufacture a logical inconsistency so that you can ignore what was clearly portrayed on panel since it is not to your liking but no such inconsistency exists. Umar not being able to survive them tells us about the potency of their physical assault. That assault is different in nature from the Hulk and bettys collision in that it is prolonged and thus we have no idea how long it would take them to take Umar out but we know at the end of the day that she wouldnt survive. Hence her surviving Hulk and Bettys clash does not at all contradict her being unable to survive the prolonged assault of the mindlessones. Additionally Umar being unable to survive them indicates she lacked the offensive output to destroy the ENTIRE army of Mindless ones BEFORE going down herself. This is itself is unrelated to her having the defensive capabilities to survive a single attack that could destroy all the mindless ones.

Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Dr Stranger dealt with them alone? Hans't He being able to destroy several of them? Didn't He at one point while being the Sorcerer Supreme had enough DEFENSIVE power to muster a shield and push them back? For whatever reason Pak decided to Chump Umar as to say She can't defeat them, he forgot that Umar has enough defensive capabilities to create another shield and push them back, same shield that portected her from the collading force of Hulk and Betty.


Originally posted by Naija boy
Umar being able to create a powerful enough shield to protect her from t an attack that killed the mindless ones has no bearings on her lacking the offensive output to put down the mindless ones before she is put down herself. The only conclusion that can be logically drawn from this is that the prolonged attack of the army of mindless ones eventually exceeds the damage output of Hulk and Betty and can put Umar down.

Yes it does, her defences are powerful anough to tank Hulk's attack meaning the same defensive power can push the mindless ones back. As a matter of fact, destroying and pushing back mindless ones back is not a feat only acomplished by HOTM Hulk is a feat that Ben Grim, Hulk, Namor, Thor, Dr. Stranger, Umar, Dormamuu, Spiderman and Torch have in common.
Why does people make such a big deal about destroying them is what amazes me. They are not herald level, not by far.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Your whole line of reasoning about Umar being able to "create a force big enough to protect her from an attack that destroys the mindless ones" but not being able to "create a force big enough to destroy the mindless ones" is nonsensical because aside the fact that your characterization of the offensive and defensive capabilities of Umar by the size is innaccurate, their is no direct relationship between the strength of shield a person is capable of creating, and the offensive output the person has. Having the former (offensive output) at a certain level does not necessitate or even imply having the latter (defensive shielding) at a corresponding or similar level. They are both independent of each other and this applies even more so with a magical character who has different sheild spells that they can use that are absolutely unconnected to their offensive output

Again Dr. Stranger's defensive capabilities have been enough to push them back out side the Dark Dimension and his Offensive capabilities have been enough to destroy several of them, while using a defensive shiled vs an army of endless enemies is the most effective way to keep them at bay, destroying them is not imposible, but it will implicate dealing with countless numbers of them at some point attrition will affect the attacker, so dealing with them in a generic matter is the most effective way. I/e creating a shield to push them back, why the writer forgot about this, is beyond my comprehension. Umar has actually restored the same barrier that was destroyed in HOTM and pushed the mindless ones by herself in Strange Tales #150, So Dr. Stranger remarks is contradictory to what We have seen in canon comics, but of course I do not expect everybody to know this facts when Dr. Stranger comics are not as popular as the Hulk. And of course I will wait for the asumption that the mindless ones were more powerful than before, but not the idea of Umar being weaker than before which IIRC it was said in HOTM.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/Mindless/StrangeTales150-23-2.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
The Ben Grimm and spiderman feat is definitely a low feat and inapplicable because we know for a fact that the mindless ones were operating at a high level in this case. Whether that is at Neutron star tanking levels or not is really an aside as being at levels where they can overwhelm Umar herself tells us more than enough.

It seems as a double starndard to say this instance is a high end Mindless ones, and Ben Grim's is a low feat, when in truth Ben's and HOTM is the average showing for them. Of course like I said, I don't expect everybody to know this, because Dr. Starnger collections are rare, very rare between comic book readers.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Furthermore, i dont believe Hulk and Betty created more energy than a Neutron star. It is a faulty comparison in the first place since even granting that the mindless ones were at there neutron star mining levels, Hulk and Betty wouldnt need to have generated more than the total energy produced by a neutron star in order to harm them, the same way that Firelord does not need to have produced more than the total energy of the sun in order to harm Silver surfer (who has flown through stars unscathed)

As said before, the events of the arc are straightforward and apparent to anyone looking at it without any biased predispositions.

As a matter of fact it has been said that Firelord can muster more heat than a sun, and both are CP wielders so him hurting the Surfer will fall into credible, but this is not about the SS and Firelord anyway, this Neutron star instance reffered to the mindless ones as being capable to survive the crushing gravity of the Neutron Star, not the actual heat of it, they do not have the best record vs energy attacks, explosions or fire at least not to be called HERALD level.

When one actually have access to all the Dr. Strager issues and most appearances of the Mindless ones, one is capable to reason and see that the mindless ones are by far not Herald level, they are durable, but not Herald level durable.

So making this wrong asumption that Mindless ones are equal to heralds in durability is just silly, trying to rise their stock is funny since...well... they are pretty much canon foder and this time it was no exeption.

I might have to add, there is at least two times in which the fragility of matter inside the dark dimension has been reffered, once was by Dr. Stranger who said the laws of reality do not apply in the dark dimension, the other one and probably the most important one that Hulk fans are not even remotely aware of, is the time in which Silver Surfer a very knowledble character when it comes to matter, described the matter inside the dark dimension as being weaker than regular matter outside of it.



Why do Hulk fans tend to overblown things that are actually not true, is beyond my comprehension.

Again and since I have said from the begining neither Heralds and planets inside the dark dimension. Evidence is plenty.

I still believe Hulk can bust a planet even though the one he busted was weaker than a normal planet, but from there to claim canon foder is herald level is well as I said before, kind of silly.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/Mindless/DrStrangeSorcererSupremeAnnualPage57.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/Mindless/DrStrangeSorcererSupremeAnnualPage58.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/qwirtle/Untitled-3.jpg

Before I forget

I do not want to devolve into "How durable is the matter inside the Dark Dimension", I just thought important to bring that particular "physics" element into light.
But I do not question his capability of busting a planet inside or outside of it.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
yeah, he purposefully made "battle board" hulk as if he was a member of this site.....




I don't quite get this ^

But overall in your post, You seem to agree that things tend to be overblown with the whole "Melting heralds" thing.

As for Arm'cheddon, I do not think Troians durability have the best showings in the comic book world. They are few, very few and low.
His cosmic energy manipulation on the other hand is very good even though is very limited to few showings

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/qwirtle/Untitled-3.jpg

Carver, you're my boy and all, but you done phucked up.

Again.

Originally posted by biensalsa
I don't quite get this ^ pak seemingly used "battle board" laws in his comic as if he was a poster on one of these sites.

Originally posted by biensalsa
But overall in your post, You seem to agree that things tend to be overblown with the whole "Melting heralds" thing.

As for Arm'cheddon, I do not think Troians durability have the best showings in the comic book world. They are few, very few and low.
His cosmic energy manipulation on the other hand is very good even though is very limited to few showings the "melting heralds" thing: hulk was tearing through a lot of big names in comics, and then you hear he was holding back, holding back so much that pretty much his most iconic villains he had trouble with (sometimes) in the majority of his career were ignored and annihilated by the initial blow when he fought someone in his weight class...and the planet they were on. that's something regardless of whatever character we're talking about (supes, spawn, etc)

now, are they heralds? well there isn't a consensus but they can all be comfortably placed at high-meta at average (low feats and high) without hurting anyone's feeling too bad, of coarse arm'cheddon is probably a legit low-herald minimum just for the fact he took a beating of that magnitude. his offspring fought prof. hulk evenly and arm'cheddon fought hulk at a very high level (again, right after wendigo and bi-beast were amped a thousandfold and basically ignored) and he fought the surfer and the same prof. hulk, damaging the former at his own game. name classification and limited showings aside, he's tough.

the mindless ones are just as you said "ninjas", but i guess you can go by what pak was trying to illustrate in the story as there are consistences with the scans you put up with umar and what pak tried to tie into that continuity in HOTM. he wanted to show off hulk's power so having them be the weakest versions is a little suspect. not saying they were their strongest ever but there is a precedent and you even posted it in this thread. either way, they are no more and it was from the collateral damage of one single impact. hulk was fighting them before he annihilated their race and they seemed to be just as much as an annoyance to him as a lot of characters he fought, however that could be his power making it so just as much as their weakness being "ninjas". *shrug*

anyway, doesn't matter to me cause hulk wasted them all equally when he stopped limiting himself

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Carver, you're my boy and all, but you done phucked up.

Again.
i notice he hasnt been back here to defend himself

Originally posted by psycho gundam
pak seemingly used "battle board" laws in his comic as if he was a poster on one of these sites.

the "melting heralds" thing: hulk was tearing through a lot of big names in comics, and then you hear he was holding back, holding back so much that pretty much his most iconic villains he had trouble with (sometimes) in the majority of his career were ignored and annihilated by the initial blow when he fought someone in his weight class...and the planet they were on. that's something regardless of whatever character we're talking about (supes, spawn, etc)

now, are they heralds? well there isn't a consensus but they can all be comfortably placed at high-meta at average (low feats and high) without hurting anyone's feeling too bad, of coarse arm'cheddon is probably a legit low-herald minimum just for the fact he took a beating of that magnitude. his offspring fought prof. hulk evenly and arm'cheddon fought hulk at a very high level (again, right after wendigo and bi-beast were amped a thousandfold and basically ignored) and he fought the surfer and the same prof. hulk, damaging the former at his own game. name classification and limited showings aside, he's tough.

the mindless ones are just as you said "ninjas", but i guess you can go by what pak was trying to illustrate in the story as there are consistences with the scans you put up with umar and what pak tried to tie into that continuity in HOTM. he wanted to show off hulk's power so having them be the weakest versions is a little suspect. not saying they were their strongest ever but there is a precedent and you even posted it in this thread. either way, they are no more and it was from the collateral damage of one single impact. hulk was fighting them before he annihilated their race and they seemed to be just as much as an annoyance to him as a lot of characters he fought, however that could be his power making it so just as much as their weakness being "ninjas". *shrug*

anyway, doesn't matter to me cause hulk wasted them all equally when he stopped limiting himself

Thank You very much for your response

Now someone make a Imperiex thread and see if the Impreriex Probes were as powerful as they were previously shown before battling Doomsday and Superman since they could have been impacted by the ninja law.

Originally posted by carver9
No I didn't. I don't even use the Ufoes showing. Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/qwirtle/Untitled-3.jpg Carver, are you perpetually drunk? Serious question.

Originally posted by carver9
Now someone make a Imperiex thread and see if the Impreriex Probes were as powerful as they were previously shown before battling Doomsday and Superman since they could have been impacted by the ninja law. Hmm i bet i could beat you in a arm wrestling match

You posted a bunch of oversize scans that didnt at all prove what u desire them to prove. How annoying.I have just finished an extensive battlezone on this issue with Newjack and do not at all desire to rehash it with an obvious troll so this will be my last post to you on the matter bienwahtever your name is.
Originally posted by biensalsa
Plethora of other feats??? Besides being described as capable of withstanding the GRAVITATIONAL forces of a Neutron star, there is almost next to nothing on that level.


Having dormammus and Doc stranges attacks prove ineffectual and draining him (dormammu), downing Loki, overwhelming the Hulk, overwhelming and being unharmed by the defenders overwhelming and being unharmed by the nova corps, etc. This is in addition to the neutron star feat. They have also had their physical formidability and nigh invulnerability noted throughout their history. This is cut and dry stuff and no amount of your baseless conjecture with a whimisical disregard for on panel evidence will change that.




Yeah you either read a diffeent issue or your unsurprising inability to understand basic on panel depictions is at work again. By defenders 1 and 2 are u referring to defenders vol 3 issue 1 and 2 in which strange accidentally teleports Hulk to the other side of the dark dimensional barrier and in which Dormammu (and through which the author) specifically notes that Hulk is getting his ass handed to him by the mindless ones?
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/MindlessonestroucingHulk.jpg
and in which we dont actually see hulk actually destroy even a single one of them? Yeah not cannon fodder, since from the dialogue its is made known that they are beating the hulk not the other way round. Before entering into a debate go learn the actual meaning of the terms cuz its clear that either comprehension or english straight up is not your strong suit.

Then,It was stated nowhere in the issue that it was the totality of the mindless ones. We have no idea the number of the force that happened to be passing through atlantis. So you can go feed your nonsensical lies to someone who hasnt read the comic. In addition to trying to present it as being the totality of the mindless ones, you brilliantly ( try to guess if im being sarcastic) post a scan from defenders v2 issue 1, in which the mindless ones appear for literally a page and all we are told is that Namors forces are beginning to drive them them back and away and around the city,which does not at all denigrate their durability as the mindless ones were merely passing through and simply attack anything that moves meaning they didnt have any desire to actually seize the city and we dont even see any of them actually destroyed or anything even close. Additionally even within that same issue u referenced we see Namor furious for being removed from the battle because of the great danger he knows the mindless ones pose to his homeland.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/Namormindlessones.jpg

None of that suggests cannon fodder and you clearly dont even know the meaning of the term.


Yeah Hulk shows himself to be stronger than a bunch of them but the mindless ones durability and stamina has always been their most impressive attribute and this is what is important regarding the HOTM feat as well as their ability to overwhelm the likes of Dormammu, Umar, the defenders etc.. Heck even in the scan you showed which is from Dr strange sorcerer supreme #50 Hulk does NOT manage to damage or destroy any of them. Even in that same comic u once again wrongly referenced, we see Dr strange talk about the vast power posessed by the mindless ones,
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/vcm_s_kf_repr_581x894.jpg
and in describing the futility of the attack of the defenders describes physical combat (i.e punches (as hulk was doing) blasts (as surfer was doing) as senseless and ineffective
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/vcm_s_kf_repr_581x894.jpg
This further shows their high durability as in Dr strange reference to the futility of physical combat against them is corroborated by the fact that we only see them knocked around but not actually substantively harmed or destroyed within the comic.

Based on average depiction they are certainly more durable than Ben grimm as they have consistently been decribed as nigh invulnerable and displayed that in battles against the likes of Strange, defenders, Dormammu, nova crops etc. Further the level of consistency doesnt even matter here since we KNOW that they are at their upper levels.

You can hold on to the low durability showings all you want but even your own other scans dont support what you are saying and we know specifically that the author intended them to be formidable enough to overwhelm Umar as they have clasically done to her brother. "Cannon fodder" level durability does not get you to being the greatest enemies of a dimension headed by two skyfather level deities. The evidence is clear.



lmao at the contradiction. You cant in the same vein claim that they are ONLY formidable because of their numbers and then claim that "the more they are the less effective they become". That is laughably illogical and really epitomizes the horrendous line of reasoning you are using to come to your conclusions facepalm.



I dont recall Dr strange single handedly dealing with/destroying the entire multitude of mindless ones at the same time. The barrier that keeps the mindless ones at bay has been something that they put up in the first place because destroying them is so damn hard let alone destroying their enitre horde. Pak didnt chump Umar. Thats what u call it because as usual u dont like what was shown on panel. Good thing he didnt care for butthurt battleboarders. In HOTM Umar needed Hulk to push the mindless ones back to a certain level before being able to recreate the barrier. Hence it is apparent that that barrier and the personal shield Umar used in the comic are fundamentally different (and since this magic with different conditions necessary for different spells this makes perfect sense). Further neither the sheild nor the barrier have a mutually dependent relationship with Umars offensive power and thus your attempt to denigrate the durability of the mindless ones or wilfully ignore whats on panels falls flat.

You nitpicking for non-existent inconsistencies cannot change what is incontrovertible on panel reality.



lolwut? Nonsense. You are generically grouping together her "defences" when it is clear that the her shields used against Hulk and BEttys collision, and the barrier that keeps out the mindless ones are not the same and you cannot at all prove that they have the same operation dynamics since the comics suggest otherwise. Namor and his forces succeeded in merely redirecting the mindless ones not harming or destroying them. They have shrugged off the continued assault of Dormammu and even drained his power. They have been described as too powerful for Umar to survive, and even in some of your very own scans been unharmed by attacks of the Hulk, Silver Surfer, and described by Doctor strange as foes of vast power against whom physical combat is futile. Save the low showing you are holding onto none of your scans even support what you are claiming.

And yet Dormammus capabilities have been drained when facing them and that same Dr strange has had failed to make any headway against them and has emphasized their high physicality level. They do have a level of inconsistency like every character but in terms of durability they have certainly not been traditionally portrayed as cannon fodder. Their tougheness/durability and numbers is what makes them powerful enemies of even skyfather level deities. You are trying to denigrate that toughness aspect in order to downplay the HOTM feat (despite them being described in this manner repeatedly and having feats corroborating it) when the high level of they were at WAS SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED IN THE COMIC. This is silly and shows your level of recalcitrance. It was not mentioned that Umar was weaker than before in the comic as that would contradict Paks entire authorial intention in HOTM. Furthermore we know that the mindless ones level of invulnerability/durability has fluctuated based on the writer, but the same DOES NOT go for Umar. Hence to think that Umar being unable to survive the mindless ones means that Pak out of the blue weakened Umar, a relatively consistent character, as opposed to it meaning that Pak wanted to show Hulks formidability by portraying the mindless ones at the high levels they have been portrayed at in the past is ludicrous
Ive read almost all of stranges history and Umar having restored the barrier in strange tales 150 really has little bearing on the occurrences in question (Heck she restored the barrier even in the HOTM arc itself).



There is no double standard here. We can determine that it is high end mindless ones based off of the statements regarding Umar within the comic. Additionally WBH did not have an established powerlevel (as Pak was still revealing the capabilities of the character) and thus his destroying of the mindless ones cannot be used to automatically infer that it was a low showing as that is assuming your conclusion and circular reasoning.Conversely, Ben Grimm spiderman etc do have established powerleves and them damaging the mindless ones can be inferred as a low showings based off of that. That incident further has no external reference solidifying the level the mindless ones were to be operating at (unlike the high level specification in HOTM) and so is not analogous to the HOTM arc in the slightest. Your "reasoning" is fallacious (circular reasoning fallacy) and thus completely off base.

Originally posted by biensalsa
As a matter of fact it has been said that Firelord can muster more heat than a sun, and both are CP wielders so him hurting the Surfer will fall into credible, but this is not about the SS and Firelord anyway, this Neutron star instance reffered to the mindless ones as being capable to survive the crushing gravity of the Neutron Star, not the actual heat of it, they do not have the best record vs energy attacks, explosions or fire at least not to be called HERALD level.


You completely missed the point of the analogy. Your question was whether i believed Hulk produces more energy than a neutron star due to the HOTM feat., and i explained why the question was wrongly structured using the analogy of firelord and surfer. Firelord may be able to create more intense heat than the sun but he does not output more energy than it. Moreover in the neutron star incident the mindless ones were actually put to mine inside of neutron stars so yes they would need to also be able to survive the heat of it as well as the gravitational pressures. Eiish.. That should not need to be explained. Heck im not even suggesting that their durability was at its utmost highest neutron star surviving levels just that it was clearly meant to be at its upper levels by Paks indications. Their durability has also never been described as being particular to some kind of attack (energy vs punches for instance) and so that factless conjecture will not get you anywhere. Differing performances against the different attack types are thus due to the differing strengths of the attacks and their varying portrayals under different writers rather than some weakness to any particular attack method.

At their upper levels, the mindless ones have been portrayed as nigh invulnerable, tireless physical power houses and thus DO have "herald level durability" based off the feats they have accomplished as well as descriptions of their formidability.




Assumptions? heh, Even your own scans dont support them being cannon fodder. You are the one attempting to twist on panel occurences and flat out ignore what is presented on panel while holding on to low feats and failing to understand basic English....


Its funny how u think u r the only one who has read comics and yet cant even seem to properly present your own scans. Anyhow the Dr strange incident u are referrring to is just irrelevant and shows nothing of the sort (regarding the dark dimension being easier to destroy) and the postulation that surfer made regarding the fragility of the dark dimension was not made after some cosmic analysis of the dimensions matter but rather after the untimely collapse of a bridge that they were on.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/vcm_s_kf_repr_581x894.jpg
He takes a cursory examination based off the preceding events (collapse of the bridge) and comes to this conclusion. Further even if that was actually the case then, fast forward 20 years to the HOTM incident and id say its pretty far fetched to think that a one off non-authoritative suggestive statement made by the Surfer was even contemplated let alone taken into account by Pak when writing the scene in the HOTM, and thus find it asinine to think that the planet in the dark dimension that Hulk destroyed was intended to be weaker than a normal planet.


Your last set of scans epitomizes the impariments with logic and comprehension that have plagued u in this thread. You try to use those scans to show why the mindless ones ae "cannon fodder" and yet itheyshows nothing of the sort. In those very scans they are described as having juggernautic power which is in line with their description as nigh invulnerable physical powerhouses. Their powerlevels are definitely played up. Hence in the comic they are NOT canon fodder but are rather being used to emphasize the formidability of Dormammu's forces. In that comic (Dr strange sorcerer supreme annual 4), Clea who is the supreme adept, used what looks less than a dozen mindless ones (7 by my count actually) to attack Dormammus stronghold during the War of the Seven Spheres. The mindless ones then even succeeded in reducing the citadels defenses to a small skeleton crew. It is thus painfully counter-intuitive to try to use this to denigrate the mindless ones since we dont know the formidability of Dormammus full defenses (as tthe battle with the mindless ones had reduced to it to a small fraction of that, which clea and her band encountered). Doing so is assuming your conclusion and thus circular reasoning. I mean it was Dormammus citadel for the huge War of Seven Spheres between numerous high level magical powers and so common sense dictates its defense is hella impressive. What is really silly is the good job you are doing posting self defeating scans

Anyhow, as Ive asserted and displayed, mindless ones at their upper levels definitely posess herald level durability (though herald is a rather vague term) based on numerous descriptions and actual feats. They can vary, but Pak establishes the strength level they are operating at within the comic (which is in line with authorial intent) which makes whatever variations in power irrelevant to this particular scene. It should thus be taken at facevalue for what Pak presented it to be. Keep the baseless conjecture to yourself. Peace

To wrap this up, here are scans in which Umar dscribes the mindless ones as nearly indestructible and in which Dr strange completely fails to harm them in any way:

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/ Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithout
harmingthem.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/ Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithout
harmingthem2.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/ Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithout
harmingthemastheyarecalledindestructible.jpg


Thus as i said and have shown they do certainly have upper level portrayals in which they are rampaging extremely durable creatures and thus as seen, it is their numbers and durability which make them threats to the likes of Dormammu and Umar. They do have lower showings and vary with the writer but Pak specifically wrote them at this classic level and explicitly mentioned it within the comic. Any refusal to acknowledge this is blatantly incosistent with the comic and Paks authorial intent. Thats all there is to it.

Originally posted by Naija boy
To wrap this up, here are scans in which Umar dscribes the mindless ones as nearly indestructible and in which Dr strange completely fails to harm them in any way:

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/ Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithout
harmingthem.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/ Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithout
harmingthem2.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/ Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithout
harmingthemastheyarecalledindestructible.jpg

Thus as i said and have shown they do certainly have upper level portrayals in which they are rampaging nigh invulnerable creatures and thus as seen, it is their numbers and durability which make them threats to the likes of Dormammu and Umar. They do have lower showings and vary with the writer but Pak specifically wrote them at this classic level and explicitly mentioned it within the comic. Any refusal to acknowledge this is blatantly incosistent with the comic and Paks authorial intent. Thats all there is to it.

Image not found! Ill respond later on to your whole post, but right now fix your links.

Originally posted by Naija boy
To wrap this up, here are scans in which Umar dscribes the mindless ones as nearly indestructible and in which Dr strange completely fails to harm them in any way:

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/ Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithout
harmingthem.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/ Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithout
harmingthem2.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/ Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithout
harmingthemastheyarecalledindestructible.jpg


Thus as i said and have shown they do certainly have upper level portrayals in which they are rampaging extremely durable creatures and thus as seen, it is their numbers and durability which make them threats to the likes of Dormammu and Umar. They do have lower showings and vary with the writer but Pak specifically wrote them
at this classic level and explicitly mentioned it within the comic. Any refusal to acknowledge this is blatantly incosistent with the comic and Paks authorial intent. Thats all there is to it.

Links fixed
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones1.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones2.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones3.jpg

Now, u can go ahead with the fallacies (I know that strawmanning is a specialty of yours)

Originally posted by biensalsa
Since I arrive Here I read this notion of WBH being ubber powerful, because He melted Heralds, personally I think this is a silly idea, but I want to get what is the consensus around here, so in order to do this, WHAT IF We replace the victims of Hulk for established Heralds.

This is the scenario

Hulk and Betty are about to bust a planet in the Dark Dimension, but this time instead of Mindless ones, Wendigo, Arm'chedon, Bi-Beast and Fin-Fan-Foom watching the fight. We have Gladiator, GL John Stewart, GL Kyle Ryner, BRB and Galactus Heralds (Terrax, Silver Surfer, Morg, Star Dust)

What will it be the most likely result after the planet buster?

1.- The Heralds are melted due to the incredible power of the Hulk.

2.- The Heralds are fine and they say nothing to Hulk since they are aware Hulk can potentially can bust a planet since 1970

Most if not all of these guys can withstand the core of stars (which is greater than what Hulk generated). The heralds are fine.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Links fixed
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones1.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones2.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones3.jpg

Now, u can go ahead with the fallacies (I know that strawmanning is a specialty of yours)

For good measure and prior to the anticipated disregard, fallacy filled
arguments, and lowballing that is to come. Here are some additional instances of upper level portrayals of the mindless ones as tireless nigh invulnerable (and thus extremely durable) creatures capable of threatening the likes of Umar and Dormammu:

Indestructible threats to the Dark Dimension:

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_Mindlessonesdurability.jpg

Again portrayed as nigh indestructable tireless engines of destruction i.e anything but cannon fodder
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_Mindlessonesagaincalledindestructible.jpg

Again their formidability and power is noted by Rahl one of the members of Cleas rebellion group
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_Rahlmarvelsattheamazingpoweroftheminlessones.jpg

Now to show that forcing them back is of little relevance, Here within the same issue and series in which their extreme durability had been repeatedly acknowledged and portrayed (Dr strange Master of mystic arts #73 specifically), Dr strange and another group of mystics are unable to destroy them but manage to merely push back a fair sized group of mindless ones.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_Mindlessonesonlyabletobeforcedbackbystrange.jpg

Them having been pushed back as explained earlier is thus not a knock on their formidability when they are portrayed at their upper levels of durability.

And here in the now famous Neutron star feat
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_MindlessonesNeutron.jpg

Again portrayed as nearly indestructible and unharmable by the Nova corps
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/th_Mindlessonesnearlyindestructible-1.jpg

Looking at this in addition to what Ive already shown (and this is just after only a little digging), this should make it abundantly clear that the mindless ones DO have numerous occurrences of being portrayed with top tier durability and this solidifies them as threats to the likes of Umar and Dormammu. Denying this is farcical and definitely trolling. Once again, they DO have showings below such a threat level but they become irrelevant because Pak specifically indicates that they are being portrayed as this level of a threat. The rest of the events are thus self explanatory.

You should dig more.


You are tryining to prove that hulk is melting heralds and even by their highest feat they fall short to be called heralds.

I'm half way my response BTW.

But im working so....C ya later.

lol the strawmanning starts early I see. Im trying to show that the mindless ones at their upper end levels and thus based on their upper end feats alone (since those are the only ones that are relevant) have herald level durability specifically, NOT that with the totality of their abilities nor the totality of their portrayals they are powerful enough to fall into the herald category.

Hmm conversely if you are claiming that even with their highest end feat they arent herald level durable than thanks for once again validating my decision not to get into a prolonged wall of text back and forth with an obvious troll. I mean tanking the heat pressures and gravity of a neutron star and being largely unhurtable in any substantive capacity to even the likes of Umar, Dormammu, Strange, Hulk Surfer etc does not qualify as herald level durability? You want me to show you a list of people generally classified between low herald and high herald that DONT have durability feats that match tanking the heat and pressures of a neutron star? Heck even within your list alone neither Terrax nor Morg have feats on that level

facepalm facepalm. You really arent worthy of further response.

Originally posted by Naija boy
lol the strawmanning starts early I see. Im trying to show that the mindless ones at their upper end levels and thus based on their upper end feats alone (since those are the only ones that are relevant) have herald level durability specifically, NOT that with the totality of their abilities nor the totality of their portrayals they are powerful enough to fall into the herald category.

Hmm conversely if you are claiming that even with their highest end feat they arent herald level durable than thanks for once again validating my decision not to get into a prolonged wall of text back and forth with an obvious troll. I mean tanking the heat pressures and gravity of a neutron star and being largely unhurtable in any substantive capacity to even the likes of Umar, Dormammu, Strange, Hulk Surfer etc does not qualify as herald level durability? You want me to show you a list of people generally classified between low herald and high herald that DONT have durability feats that match tanking the heat and pressures of a neutron star? Heck even within your list alone neither Terrax nor Morg have feats on that level

facepalm facepalm. You really arent worthy of further response.

I would definitely like to see the feat where they tank the INSIDE heat and pressure of a neutron star. Was it posted already?
Edit: Nevermind I found it above.
Impressive.

Originally posted by Naija boy
You posted a bunch of oversize scans that didnt at all prove what u desire them to prove. How annoying.I have just finished an extensive battlezone on this issue with Newjack and do not at all desire to rehash it with an obvious troll so this will be my last post to you on the matter bienwahtever your name is.

Cool, you opened your post with a Genetics fallacy?, nice, that was my favorite tactic when I opened debate class in elementary school and I was "reppin" my side, Awesome!!!

I mean yes, the scans might have been a little bit bigger than usual and might hurt your fragile eyes, but that does not change the fact that it hurts the argument of mindless ones being Herald level. And on top of that you followed by an Ad hominem by calling me a troll? Oh and Thank You, your highness for taking time to respond to bienwhatever my name is.

Now, back on topic, We are discusing mindless ones "Herald" level, not the size of my scans, my poster name, your ideas of me being a troll or your last battlezone with Newjack.


Originally posted by Naija boy
Having dormammus and Doc stranges attacks prove ineffectual and draining him (dormammu),

What are You talking about? Doc Strange's fight with Dormammu is causing Dormammu's power to dwindle, so the barrier becomes less effective, Dormammu tries to place another barrier but since he is weakened because of his fight with Doc. Stranger, his barrier is not strong enough to stop them. Doc Stranger lends power to a weakened Dormammu and He puts another barrier that keeps them in place.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/-story2page09-.jpg

or You meant this?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Strange_Tales_134-22.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Strange_Tales_134-25.jpg

or This?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/StrangeTales140-18.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
downing Loki,

CONTEXT, You forgot to say Downing Loki, because he was caught by surprise and betrayed by Karnilla, Loki even says "What?" as a sign that he is caught by surprise.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Thor_1981_308_13.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Thor_1981_308_19.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
overwhelming the Hulk,

Wow SEVERAL mindless ones vs Hulk, overwhelming him, let me see I have a scan of 1 Ben Grim holding better vs Hulk than SEVERAL mindless ones and He is not Herald level.

This? Yes "formidable" foes

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/DrStrangeSorcerersupre50-09.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
overwhelming and being unharmed by the defenders

Unharmed? Where? They deal with several of them, they are just more in there, you know, that place is full of them!

This?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/DrStrangeSorcerersupre50-10.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
overwhelming and being unharmed by the nova corps, etc.

10 Mindless ones VS 4 or 5 Nova Corps wow, 2 or 3 of them rookies, and unharmed? Starstalker says otherwise, You know Starstalker physical stats? Yes Mindless ones are canon foder

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Nova30.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
This is in addition to the neutron star feat.

Wich is their highest feat and mentions being able to resist the gravity of it. You know the term space cheese?

Originally posted by Naija boy
They have also had their physical formidability and nigh invulnerability noted throughout their history.
This is cut and dry stuff and no amount of your baseless conjecture with a whimisical disregard for on panel evidence will change that.

What evidence? That ^ or this?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/30.jpg

This?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/sw17-20.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
Yeah you either read a diffeent issue or your unsurprising inability to understand basic on panel depictions is at work again. By defenders 1 and 2 are u referring to defenders vol 3 issue 1 and 2 in which strange accidentally teleports Hulk to the other side of the dark dimensional barrier and in which Dormammu (and through which the author) specifically notes that Hulk is getting his ass handed to him by the mindless ones?
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/MindlessonestroucingHulk.jpg
and in which we dont actually see hulk actually destroy even a single one of them? Yeah not cannon fodder, since from the dialogue its is made known that they are beating the hulk not the other way round. Before entering into a debate go learn the actual meaning of the terms cuz its clear that either comprehension or english straight up is not your strong suit.

You forgot this:

Hulk stays a long time behind the barrier with out even paying attention to the "Herald" level mindless ones and He is FINE! Namor and Dr. Strange are even having a casual discussion with out even worrying about the Hulk, note the first scan How Strange uses his ominous tone the same way he does most of the time

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Defenders1ffsxtvp020.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Defenders1ffsxtvp021.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Defenders1ffsxtvp022.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/TheDefenders-V3-02-001.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/TheDefenders-V3-02-002.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/TheDefenders-V3-02-003.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/TheDefenders-V3-02-004.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
Then,It was stated nowhere in the issue that it was the totality of the mindless ones.

I was not reffering to all the mindless ones that existed, but all the mindless ones on that scene, genious.

Originally posted by Naija boy
We have no idea the number of the force that happened to be passing through atlantis. So you can go feed your nonsensical lies to someone who hasnt read the comic. In addition to trying to present it as being the totality of the mindless ones, you brilliantly ( try to guess if im being sarcastic) post a scan from defenders v2 issue 1, in which the mindless ones appear for literally a page and all we are told is that Namors forces are beginning to drive them them back and away and around the city,which does not at all denigrate their durability as the mindless ones were merely passing through and simply attack anything that moves meaning they didnt have any desire to actually seize the city and we dont even see any of them actually destroyed or anything even close. Additionally even within that same issue u referenced we see Namor furious for being removed from the battle because of the great danger he knows the mindless ones pose to his homeland.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/Namormindlessones.jpg

None of that suggests cannon fodder and you clearly dont even know the meaning of the term.


Look, You can try to spin it in any way you want, But the Mindless ones all of them ON THAT SCENE (just to be clear, because apparently You thought I meant all of the Mindless ones that ever existed), where driven away by Namor, You think Namor will be able to drive away an army of Grims? even if they are passing thru there, with out paying attention to anything? If so, be my guest.


Originally posted by Naija boy
Yeah Hulk shows himself to be stronger than a bunch of them but the mindless ones durability and stamina has always been their most impressive attribute and this is what is important regarding the HOTM feat as well as their ability to overwhelm the likes of Dormammu, Umar, the defenders etc.. Heck even in the scan you showed which is from Dr strange sorcerer supreme #50 Hulk does NOT manage to damage or destroy any of them. Even in that same comic u once again wrongly referenced, we see Dr strange talk about the vast power posessed by the mindless ones,
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/vcm_s_kf_repr_581x894.jpg
and in describing the futility of the attack of the defenders describes physical combat (i.e punches (as hulk was doing) blasts (as surfer was doing) as senseless and ineffective
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/vcm_s_kf_repr_581x894.jpg
This further shows their high durability as in Dr strange reference to the futility of physical combat against them is corroborated by the fact that we only see them knocked around but not actually substantively harmed or destroyed within the comic.

And I am the one who need English lessons where does Strange says "innefective"? Are You making that up?

And this seems rather effective to me, Silver Surfer dispatched 11 of them with a single blast.is that innefective? Do you even know the meaning if the term?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/DrStrangeSorcerersupre50-10.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
Based on average depiction they are certainly more durable than Ben grimm as they have consistently been decribed as nigh invulnerable and displayed that in battles against the likes of Strange, defenders, Dormammu, nova crops etc. Further the level of consistency doesnt even matter here since we KNOW that they are at their upper levels.

Why are they at their upper levels in this comic? Oh yes because is HOTM arc, In here they are Herald level not canon foder. Got it.

Originally posted by Naija boy
You can hold on to the low durability showings all you want but even your own other scans dont support what you are saying and we know specifically that the author intended them to be formidable enough to overwhelm Umar as they have clasically done to her brother. "Cannon fodder" level durability does not get you to being the greatest enemies of a dimension headed by two skyfather level deities. The evidence is clear.

Yes, they are durable, not Herald level, but durable enough, overwhelm them as they have "clasically"?, I guess this is the reason why there is an eternal barrier created by them, because they overwhelm them, they do not even have enough power to create an eternal barrier, because their power overwhelms them. Yes evidence is very clear. I see how much Umar's power is being overwhelmed by the mindless one while she is making love to Hulk.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/IncredibleHulks633016.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
lmao at the contradiction. You cant in the same vein claim that they are ONLY formidable because of their numbers and then claim that "the more they are the less effective they become". That is laughably illogical and really epitomizes the horrendous line of reasoning you are using to come to your conclusions facepalm.

Let me guide you trhoug this one

The mindless ones are many and they are kind of durable, but in reality they are canon foder.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/AmazingSpider-ManV2057-16.jpg


Originally posted by Naija boy
I dont recall Dr strange single handedly dealing with/destroying the entire multitude of mindless ones at the same time. The barrier that keeps the mindless ones at bay has been something that they put up in the first place because destroying them is so damn hard let alone destroying their enitre horde. Pak didnt chump Umar. Thats what u call it because as usual u dont like what was shown on panel. Good thing he didnt care for butthurt battleboarders. In HOTM Umar needed Hulk to push the mindless ones back to a certain level before being able to recreate the barrier.

Hence it is apparent that that barrier and the personal shield Umar used in the comic are fundamentally different (and since this magic with different conditions necessary for different spells this makes perfect sense). Further neither the sheild nor the barrier have a mutually dependent relationship with Umars offensive power and thus your attempt to denigrate the durability of the mindless ones or wilfully ignore whats on panels falls flat.

You nitpicking for non-existent inconsistencies cannot change what is incontrovertible on panel reality.

What a nice false premise, Umar just wanted to create the barrier there, she and her borther can create barriers anywhere they want.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Defenders1ffsxtvp020.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/-story2page08-.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/-story2page09-.jpg

Oh looki here

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/DrStrangeMaster7319.jpg

Barriers ANYWHERE

Originally posted by Naija boy
lolwut? Nonsense. You are generically grouping together her "defences" when it is clear that the her shields used against Hulk and BEttys collision, and the barrier that keeps out the mindless ones are not the same and you cannot at all prove that they have the same operation dynamics since the comics suggest otherwise.

What a bunch on nonsense is this? Barriers/shields can be erected anywhere see scans prior to this post

Originally posted by Naija boy
Namor and his forces succeeded in merely redirecting the mindless ones not harming or destroying them. They have shrugged off the continued assault of Dormammu and even drained his power. They have been described as too powerful for Umar to survive, and even in some of your very own scans been unharmed by attacks of the Hulk, Silver Surfer, and described by Doctor strange as foes of vast power against whom physical combat is futile. Save the low showing you are holding onto none of your scans even support what you are claiming.

Originally posted by Naija boy
And yet Dormammus capabilities have been drained when facing them and that same Dr strange has had failed to make any headway against them and has emphasized their high physicality level. They do have a level of inconsistency like every character but in terms of durability they have certainly not been traditionally portrayed as cannon fodder. Their tougheness/durability and numbers is what makes them powerful enemies of even skyfather level deities.

Hold on, let me breath because I just laughed so much with this remark... Ok lets keep going.

Originally posted by Naija boy
You are trying to denigrate that toughness aspect in order to downplay the HOTM feat (despite them being described in this manner repeatedly and having feats corroborating it) when the high level of they were at WAS SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED IN THE COMIC. This is silly and shows your level of recalcitrance.

The Argumentum ad verbosium is funny at the beginning but I get tired of it. You use the same language when talking to people you know or You just use this type of language here?

And is funny how You think in all the other comics where they get destroyed is low balling them, but in HOTM is not, You try to appeal to the authority so much.

Originally posted by Naija boy
It was not mentioned that Umar was weaker than before in the comic as that would contradict Paks entire authorial intention in HOTM. Furthermore we know that the mindless ones level of invulnerability/durability has fluctuated based on the writer, but the same DOES NOT go for Umar. Hence to think that Umar being unable to survive the mindless ones means that Pak out of the blue weakened Umar, a relatively consistent character, as opposed to it meaning that Pak wanted to show Hulks formidability by portraying the mindless ones at the high levels they have been portrayed at in the past is ludicrous
Ive read almost all of stranges history and Umar having restored the barrier in strange tales 150 really has little bearing on the occurrences in question (Heck she restored the barrier even in the HOTM arc itself).

And she could have done it again, Pak just needed canon foder to kill.

Originally posted by Naija boy
There is no double standard here. We can determine that it is high end mindless ones based off of the statements regarding Umar within the comic.

Sure... They are not canon fodder because this does not look very similar.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/AmazingSpider-ManV2057-14.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/IncredibleHulks633014.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/TheDefenders-V3-02-002.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/DrStrangeSorcerersupre50-10.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
Additionally WBH did not have an established powerlevel (as Pak was still revealing the capabilities of the character) and thus his destroying of the mindless ones cannot be used to automatically infer that it was a low showing as that is assuming your conclusion and circular reasoning.Conversely, Ben Grimm spiderman etc do have established powerleves and them damaging the mindless ones can be inferred as a low showings based off of that. That incident further has no external reference solidifying the level the mindless ones were to be operating at (unlike the high level specification in HOTM) and so is not analogous to the HOTM arc in the slightest. Your "reasoning" is fallacious (circular reasoning fallacy) and thus completely off base.

Again with the Argumentum ad verbosium, Ok so I'm the one doing the circular reasoning? When You are the one saying "The mindless ones are herald durable because, Umar cannot stop them" When in fact Umar has stoped the Mindless ones before, Even Strange has been able to drive them away!






Originally posted by Naija boy
You completely missed the point of the analogy. Your question was whether i believed Hulk produces more energy than a neutron star due to the HOTM feat., and i explained why the question was wrongly structured using the analogy of firelord and surfer. Firelord may be able to create more intense heat than the sun but he does not output more energy than it. Moreover in the neutron star incident the mindless ones were actually put to mine inside of neutron stars so yes they would need to also be able to survive the heat of it as well as the gravitational pressures. Eiish.. That should not need to be explained. Heck im not even suggesting that their durability was at its utmost highest neutron star surviving levels just that it was clearly meant to be at its upper levels by Paks indications. .

Wait now Pak used Nova #30 as refference material for his book, did He indicate this? or is this another one of your assumptions?

Originally posted by Naija boy
Their durability has also never been described as being particular to some kind of attack (energy vs punches for instance) and so that factless conjecture will not get you anywhere. Differing performances against the different attack types are thus due to the differing strengths of the attacks and their varying portrayals under different writers rather than some weakness to any particular attack method.

I'm going to have so much fun


Originally posted by Naija boy
At their upper levels, the mindless ones have been portrayed as nigh invulnerable, tireless physical power houses and thus DO have "herald level durability" based off the feats they have accomplished as well as descriptions of their formidability.

Ok thats it, lets see This Herald durabilty and put it to the test.




Thor damages them
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/31.jpg

Stranger defeats several of them
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/StrangeTales153-26.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/StrangeTales153-27.jpg

Hulk damages and kills them (You should know what is going on in here, if not let me know and I help you out)
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Hulk_v2_077_12a.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Hulk_v2_078_15b.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Hulk_v2_079_17b.jpg

Dormammu's minions kills them
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/DrStrangeSorcererSupremeAnnualPage57.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/DrStrangeSorcererSupremeAnnualPage58.jpg

Clea damages them
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/DrStrangeSorcerersupre83-02.jpg

Torch damages them
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/AmazingSpider-ManV2057-12.jpg

Darkhawk damages them
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/sw17-18.jpg


The Thing damages them
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/AmazingSpider-ManV2057-15.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/AmazingSpider-ManV2057-16.jpg

Spiderman damages them
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/30.jpg

Cyclops damages them
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/AmazingSpider-ManV2057-19.jpg

Sleepwalker damages them
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/sw17-19.jpg

Starstalker damages one
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Nova30.jpg

Not to mention how they are often used as canon foder

Not even given panel fight
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/DrStrangeSorcererSupremeAnnualPage57.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/DrStrangeSorcererSupremeAnnualPage58.jpg

Even C list characters can figh them
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/avengers_initiative_27_014.jpg

New mutans can handle them
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/NewMutants87.jpg

Stranger vs a bunch of them
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/DrStrangeSorcererSupreme21.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/StrangeTales153-27.jpg

They are so formidable that even Dr. Stranger kicking skills are too much for them
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/StrangeTales153-25.jpg

Spiderman handles them quite easily
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/AmazingSpider-ManV2058-07.jpg
Hulk pushes 10 of them
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/DrStrangeSorcerersupre50-09.jpg

All this seems kind of familiar

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/IncredibleHulks633012-13.jpg


Originally posted by Naija boy
Assumptions? heh, Even your own scans dont support them being cannon fodder. You are the one attempting to twist on panel occurences and flat out ignore what is presented on panel while holding on to low feats and failing to understand basic English....

You were saying???


Originally posted by Naija boy
Its funny how u think u r the only one who has read comics and yet cant even seem to properly present your own scans. Anyhow the Dr strange incident u are referrring to is just irrelevant and shows nothing of the sort (regarding the dark dimension being easier to destroy) and the postulation that surfer made regarding the fragility of the dark dimension was not made after some cosmic analysis of the dimensions matter but rather after the untimely collapse of a bridge that they were on.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/vcm_s_kf_repr_581x894.jpg
He takes a cursory examination based off the preceding events (collapse of the bridge) and comes to this conclusion. Further even if that was actually the case then, fast forward 20 years to the HOTM incident and id say its pretty far fetched to think that a one off non-authoritative suggestive statement made by the Surfer was even contemplated let alone taken into account by Pak when writing the scene in the HOTM, and thus find it asinine to think that the planet in the dark dimension that Hulk destroyed was intended to be weaker than a normal planet.

I have evidence, what do you have? NOTHING but a blabber


Originally posted by Naija boy
Your last set of scans epitomizes the impariments with logic and comprehension that have plagued u in this thread. You try to use those scans to show why the mindless ones ae "cannon fodder" and yet itheyshows nothing of the sort. In those very scans they are described as having juggernautic power which is in line with their description as nigh invulnerable physical powerhouses. Their powerlevels are definitely played up. Hence in the comic they are NOT canon fodder but are rather being used to emphasize the formidability of Dormammu's forces. In that comic (Dr strange sorcerer supreme annual 4), Clea who is the supreme adept, used what looks less than a dozen mindless ones (7 by my count actually) to attack Dormammus stronghold during the War of the Seven Spheres. The mindless ones then even succeeded in reducing the citadels defenses to a small skeleton crew. It is thus painfully counter-intuitive to try to use this to denigrate the mindless ones since we dont know the formidability of Dormammus full defenses (as tthe battle with the mindless ones had reduced to it to a small fraction of that, which clea and her band encountered). Doing so is assuming your conclusion and thus circular reasoning. I mean it was Dormammus citadel for the huge War of Seven Spheres between numerous high level magical powers and so common sense dictates its defense is hella impressive. What is really silly is the good job you are doing posting self defeating scans

That type of blabber, makes you sound like a pseudo intellectual and it gets tiresome. You know comics is not a highly intellectual topic right? And That is to show you less than skyfather or herald can take the mindless ones out, Brainiac

And calling my scans self defeating? when you are trying to prove how "formidable" foe they are and You post this?

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones2.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
Anyhow, as Ive asserted and displayed, mindless ones at their upper levels definitely posess herald level durability (though herald is a rather vague term) based on numerous descriptions and actual feats. They can vary, but Pak establishes the strength level they are operating at within the comic (which is in line with authorial intent) which makes whatever variations in power irrelevant to this particular scene. It should thus be taken at facevalue for what Pak presented it to be. Keep the baseless conjecture to yourself. Peace

That is very funny.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Thus as i said and have shown they do certainly have upper level portrayals in which they are rampaging extremely durable creatures and thus as seen, it is their numbers and durability which make them threats to the likes of Dormammu and Umar. They do have lower showings and vary with the writer but Pak specifically wrote them at this classic level and explicitly mentioned it within the comic. Any refusal to acknowledge this is blatantly incosistent with the comic and Paks authorial intent. Thats all there is to it.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Links fixed
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones1.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones2.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones3.jpg

Now, u can go ahead with the fallacies (I know that strawmanning is a specialty of yours)

Sure, they are upper level and not cannon foder

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/Mindless/DrStrangeSorcerersupre50-09.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/Mindless/IncredibleHulks633012-13.jpg

Just to show one more example of how formidable they are

This is canon in 616 and this is their "lowest" showing if you can get any lower of what We have seen

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/img017.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/img018.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/img019.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/img020.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Nextwave_8-10.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Nextwave_8-11.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Nextwave_8-12.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Nextwave_8-14.jpg

Sure, they durability is herald level and this time or all those other times it was not the exception, CANNON FODDER

To quote a great pseudo intellectual "lolwut?"

well then..

Doom's Mindless Ones are impeccable.

IUH3JQjcweMLoL@BienSalsa's avatar appearing 5 times in every single scan.

Originally posted by Naija boy
For good measure and prior to the anticipated disregard, fallacy filled
arguments, and lowballing that is to come. Here are some additional instances of upper level portrayals of the mindless ones as tireless nigh invulnerable (and thus extremely durable) creatures capable of threatening the likes of Umar and Dormammu:

Indestructible threats to the Dark Dimension:

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_Mindlessonesdurability.jpg

Again portrayed as nigh indestructable tireless engines of destruction i.e anything but cannon fodder
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_Mindlessonesagaincalledindestructible.jpg

Again their formidability and power is noted by Rahl one of the members of Cleas rebellion group
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_Rahlmarvelsattheamazingpoweroftheminlessones.jpg

Now to show that forcing them back is of little relevance, Here within the same issue and series in which their extreme durability had been repeatedly acknowledged and portrayed (Dr strange Master of mystic arts #73 specifically), Dr strange and another group of mystics are unable to destroy them but manage to merely push back a fair sized group of mindless ones.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_Mindlessonesonlyabletobeforcedbackbystrange.jpg

Them having been pushed back as explained earlier is thus not a knock on their formidability when they are portrayed at their upper levels of durability.

And here in the now famous Neutron star feat
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_MindlessonesNeutron.jpg

Again portrayed as nearly indestructible and unharmable by the Nova corps
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/th_Mindlessonesnearlyindestructible-1.jpg

Looking at this in addition to what Ive already shown (and this is just after only a little digging), this should make it abundantly clear that the mindless ones DO have numerous occurrences of being portrayed with top tier durability and this solidifies them as threats to the likes of Umar and Dormammu. Denying this is farcical and definitely trolling. Once again, they DO have showings below such a threat level but they become irrelevant because Pak specifically indicates that they are being portrayed as this level of a threat. The rest of the events are thus self explanatory.

"lolwut?"

They are mentioned as amazing nearly indestructible "engines" of destruction when they appear, but then again THIS comes after those statements.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Nova30.jpg

Even Spiderman puts a better fight than them

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/sw17-20.jpg

What does that tells You?

CANNON FODDER

But NOOOOOOOO! In HOTM was different for some reason.

While i was seriously tempted to reply that silliness, upon reading it u have to be freaking kidding me. You dont even know the meaning of the terms you are using? So me offhandedly remarking that you used annoyingly oversize scans is an example of the genetic fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
And then saying words like "recalcitrant" is an example of argumentum ad verbosium? (Do i need to post the definition of this too?)

And suggesting that Pak (the writer of the comic) portrayed what he intended to portray based on statements and dialogue in the comic is an example of a fallacious appeal to authority? Maybe in your world but not in the actual world of logic and philosophy
baka.

I know that the use of the term "fallacy" is a fad now on the internet but seriously since you clearly havent even taken an introductory course in logic and philosophy then stop using it. If english isnt your first language just say so but dont even try to pull that "fallacy" crap on me cuz logic works the same way no matter language you speak. In the world of sane people, this just makes you look like an idiot

And then the strawmanning came just like I said it would. I specifically said that I was trying to show that the mindless ones had herald level durability going by upper level durability feats alone since i accepted (and repeated) that they varied from writer to writer.

And then you go and post a bunch of low feats (confirming that they vary from writer to writer) , some of which you have posted before (and i had explained why they were invalid), some in which they dont even get actually substantively destroyed at all (which makes more than half of your scans irrelevant already) because they were from comics were they WERE portrayed as extremely durable, and none of which invalidate my initial premise. and then you think u have advanced a logical argument?

Heck just on the top of the page you quote a post where i claim that Mindless ones certainly do have upper level portrayals in which they are extremely durable and that based on what was stated about them in the comic, Pak tries to portray them at such a level in order to upplay Hulk. Then you in respone, u saracastically reply "Sure they are upper level" and post what you describe as their lowest durability showing in order to counter this when if you had even read the post you quoted you should have understood why their their lowest durability showing (or their low showings at all in which many of the ones you presented which had no relevance to their actual durability) were not even tangential to the the point i was arguing.

baka

I always wondered what the next breed of troll would be. A troll that can post "teh scanz!" and spam up threads with them derailing useful discussion, i truly never expected. God help us all

Originally posted by Naija boy
While i was seriously tempted to reply that silliness, upon reading it u have to be freaking kidding me. You dont even know the meaning of the terms you are using? So me offhandedly remarking that you used annoyingly oversize scans is an example of the genetic fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
And then saying words like "recalcitrant" is an example of argumentum ad verbosium? (Do i need to post the definition of this too?)

And suggesting that Pak (the writer of the comic) portrayed what he intended to portray based on statements and dialogue in the comic is an example of a fallacious appeal to authority? Maybe in your world but not in the actual world of logic and philosophy
baka.

I know that the use of the term "fallacy" is a fad now on the internet but seriously since you clearly havent even taken an introductory course in logic and philosophy then stop using it. If english isnt your first language just say so but dont even try to pull that "fallacy" crap on me cuz logic works the same way no matter language you speak. In the world of sane people, this just makes you look like an idiot

And then the strawmanning came just like I said it would. I specifically said that I was trying to show that the mindless ones had herald level durability going by upper level durability feats alone since i accepted (and repeated) that they varied from writer to writer.

And then you go and post a bunch of low feats (confirming that they vary from writer to writer) , some of which you have posted before (and i had explained why they were invalid), some in which they dont even get actually substantively destroyed at all (which makes more than half of your scans irrelevant already) because they were from comics were they WERE portrayed as extremely durable, and none of which invalidate my initial premise. and then you think u have advanced a logical argument?

Heck just on the top of the page you quote a post where i claim that Mindless ones certainly do have upper level portrayals in which they are extremely durable and that based on what was stated about them in the comic, Pak tries to portray them at such a level in order to upplay Hulk. Then you in respone, u saracastically reply "Sure they are upper level" and post what you describe as their lowest durability showing in order to counter this when if you had even read the post you quoted you should have understood why their their lowest durability showing (or their low showings at all in which many of the ones you presented which had no relevance to their actual durability) were not even tangential to the the point i was arguing.

baka

I always wondered what the next breed of troll would be. A troll that can post "teh scanz!" and spam up threads with them derailing useful discussion, i truly never expected. God help us all


Translation:

Originally posted by Naija boy
"OUCH!"

Durable but to call them herald level is...well, just a silly wet dream of a fan.

lol maybe when translated into whatever dialect of retard you speak.

but yeah whatever helps you sleep at night.

Originally posted by Naija boy
lol maybe when translated into whatever dialect of retard you speak.

but yeah whatever helps you sleep at night.

Love You too cupcakes, keep reppin.

And this will be my last reply. I don't want this to be closed, just because We don't enjoy each other's comments.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Translation:



Durable but to call them herald level is...well, just a silly wet dream of a fan.

Can someone post those scans where an imperiex Probe got taken out by a nuke? Or the scans where they got take out by a space ship ramming their heads. I think I need to start this thread. Canon fodder Probes.

Originally posted by carver9
Can someone post those scans where an imperiex Probe got taken out by a nuke? Or the scans where they got take out by a space ship ramming their heads. I think I need to start this thread. Canon fodder Probes.

I thought it was a B-13 nuke tank and Black Lightning for the first one, then the space ship was...well alien tech, so I can't say if that amkes the ship weak or not.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I thought it was a B-13 nuke tank and Black Lightning for the first one, then the space ship was...well alien tech, so I can't say if that amkes the ship weak or not.

It was a nuke and Black Lightning and Supergirl was there as well and survived the initial attack.

Lol...they got taken out by a ship hitting them in the face. Lol at the alien ship comment.

Originally posted by carver9
It was a nuke and Black Lightning and Supergirl was there as well and survived the initial attack.

Lol...they got taken out by a ship hitting them in the face. Lol at the alien ship comment.


Well, its true, I can't comment. Unless you can quantify it? Is it the same as an aircraft carrier hitting you, for example? A....helicarrier?


Also, it was no ordinary nuke, I believe -it was Luthortech and B-13 tech ('we have not been idle - we have the finest tech the great human minds can come up with or some crap'). I may well be wrong though.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, its true, I can't comment. Unless you can quantify it? Is it the same as an aircraft carrier hitting you, for example? A....helicarrier?


Also, it was no ordinary nuke, I believe -it was Luthortech and B-13 tech ('we have not been idle - we have the finest tech the great human minds can come up with or some crap'). I may well be wrong though.

So you think someone liiikkke Surfer or Superman can get hit in the head by a ship and killed.?

Uuuummmm, Black Lightning and Supergirl was right in front of the Probe when the attack went off and they survived. The blast wasn't as powerful as you are trying to make it.

I wanna learn the "retard" language. Biensalsa...if I may ask, what was the point of the Supes avatar trolling the scans, lol. Just a way to make sure you're given credit for the scans?

Originally posted by Zack Fair
I wanna learn the "retard" language. Biensalsa...if I may ask, what was the point of the Supes avatar trolling the scans, lol. Just a way to make sure you're given credit for the scans?

Is just so I make sure the evil guys do not use my own scans against me

obviously

Originally posted by carver9
Can someone post those scans where an imperiex Probe got taken out by a nuke? Or the scans where they got take out by a space ship ramming their heads. I think I need to start this thread. Canon fodder Probes.

Oh Carver, none of those instances compares to getting face damage by Starstalker.

How about We make a thread "Imperex Probe vs Minless One"?

Originally posted by biensalsa
Oh Carver, none of those instances compares to getting face damage by Starstalker.

How about We make a thread "Imperex Probe vs Minless One"?

Whats the Probes best durability ft?

Originally posted by carver9
Whats the Probes best durability ft?

You mean mentioned only? or actually shown on panel?

Originally posted by biensalsa
Is just so I make sure the evil guys do not use my own scans against me Looks like you watermarked scans that you downloaded from someone else who scanned them to me...

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Looks like you watermarked scans that you downloaded from someone else who scanned them to me...

Really?

Originally posted by biensalsa
You mean mentioned only? or actually shown on panel?

Shown on panel. Example...the Mindless Ones best durability ft is withstanding attacks from both Classic Strange and Dormammu at the same time. This has happened on more than one occasion.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Really? Yes. It amazes me too

Originally posted by carver9
Shown on panel. Example...the Mindless Ones best durability ft is withstanding attacks from both Classic Strange and Dormammu at the same time. This has happened on more than one occasion.

Haven't seen that. reference #?

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Yes. It amazes me too

Maybe is one of the evil guys

Originally posted by Zack Fair
LoL@BienSalsa's avatar appearing 5 times in every single scan. http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m32aqzpvK61qmaa05o1_500.gif

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m32aqzpvK61qmaa05o1_500.gif

Not denying it, I'm kind of a Psycho

Originally posted by carver9
So you think someone liiikkke Surfer or Superman can get hit in the head by a ship and killed.?

Uuuummmm, Black Lightning and Supergirl was right in front of the Probe when the attack went off and they survived. The blast wasn't as powerful as you are trying to make it.

Supergirl wasn't. Black Lightning is an energy absorber. Your point?

If you look, you'd also see the White House just in front of the probe. Oh, and Sam Lane's friend is also there in another tank.

So now bricks and mortar and humans have greater durability than the probes?

Or, Black Lightning absorbed the energy?

One of those theories is sillier than the other. And its not the one that questions Jefferson's powerset.

Btw, I know you'll bring up Hippolyta killing one as well - but she did it with all her gear on, and used her lasso to accomplish it,

Originally posted by carver9
Shown on panel. Example...the Mindless Ones best durability ft is withstanding attacks from both Classic Strange and Dormammu at the same time. This has happened on more than one occasion.

So. Carver, Do you have that reference # for me?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El


Why did you ruin the scans with Superman pics everywhere?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Why did you ruin the scans with Superman pics everywhere?

Btw, you forgot to bring up Blade vs. Mindless Ones.

Yes, MOs are fodder. Everyone should know this, but somehow KMC always wanked them as if they were Living Tribunals

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Btw, you forgot to bring up Blade vs. Mindless Ones.

Yes, MOs are fodder. Everyone should know this, but somehow KMC always wanked them as if they were Living Tribunals

MO's >>>>>>>>> Beyonders

Hulk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All universes put together

Lol at the watermarks. I thought this was the first time I've ever seen something like this until I saw my posts here. I'm glad I forgot though and experienced it like the first time.

Like I said, I will regret this for life

This one is so homo. Somehow, Superman found a way into that guy's mouth.

http://s647.photobucket.com/user/biensalsa/media/Marvel%20Comics/mind/avengers_initiative_27_014.jpg.html

He's on Surfer's penis in one too

I am going to end up erasing those scans.

Originally posted by One Big Mob


He's on Surfer's penis in one too

Indeed he is.

http://s647.photobucket.com/user/biensalsa/media/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Defenders1ffsxtvp021.jpg.html

Post more scans, bien!

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Indeed he is.

http://s647.photobucket.com/user/biensalsa/media/Marvel%20Comics/mind/Defenders1ffsxtvp021.jpg.html

Post more scans, bien!

Superman's face on Surfer's penis hahahahahaha!!!

I also like this one:

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/TheDefenders-V3-02-001.jpg

How many Supermans could Hulk eat? (Or snort)

Surfer and morg did something similar when they clashed,they blew up the planet and even cracked the surrounding moons,surfer was unharmed,morg was KO'd..since they are not in ground zero,stardust will be perfectly fine,physical attacks don't do anything to her,whether she is at ground zero or not...surfer won't feel a thing,morg would be a little bit hurt..and couldn't they simply absorb the energy coming their way anyway?
Not sure about the others...

Originally posted by Genii96
Surfer and morg did something similar when they clashed,they blew up the planet and even cracked the surrounding moons,surfer was unharmed,morg was KO'd..since they are not in ground zero,stardust will be perfectly fine,physical attacks don't do anything to her,whether she is at ground zero or not...surfer won't feel a thing,morg would be a little bit hurt..and couldn't they simply absorb the energy coming their way anyway?
Not sure about the others...

In order for any of what you just wrote to make any kind of sense, it would mean that we should ignore the notion that Wendigo and Bi-Beast were amped and easily over-powered by the Hulk (before they ever entered the Dark Dimension). We should also ignore the notion that he was still holding back when he easily defeated them (in Las Vegas). We should ignore that he stopped holding back when he actually got into the Dark Dimension, we should ignore the fact that a regular Wendigo couldn't be beaten by the combined power of Savage Hulk and Sasquatch, and finally we should pretend that the actual books made no mention that the Hulk held back the entire time when he was in NYC. Instead, let's all pretend that the Mindless Ones are the only means of determining the Hulk's power level despite seeing one attack, and not an entire battle between the Surfer and Morg that easily took out more than one planet, and post scan upon scan on how they were treated like fodder in the past.

What happened with Morg and the Surfer could also be considered a high showing, because it was certainly not their average. However the same can not be said of the Hulk at the level that he was on. What we saw during the Dark Dimension was World Breaker Hulk's average. So on average, he would have KO'd, severely hurt, or outright killed most characters in the high Herald range. But then again, we can always pretend that World Breaker Hulk was only as powerful as Doc Green.