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I've been seeing multiple posters post that vaapad is superior to Juyo, or X, Y, Z styles. OR that it is inherently superior all around, which it is blatantly not.

Is it a state of mind? Sure, so is every other style of combat. Every fighter has his or her own state of mind.

Is drawing off the darkness of the your opponent or of your own self unique to vaapad? No. Not at all.

So tell me why is it so many claim vaapad is the end all of all saber styles?

P.S. Vaapad is not the finished product of Juyo, it is a variant of Juyo, Juyo is its own fighting style altogether.

Some sources might disagree with your statement that Vaapad isn't the completion of the incomplete Juyo. IJS.

Considering Vaapad and Juyo require higher levels of multiple styles, excluding Makashi, and was only itself mastered by maybe two people, it stands to reason it's exceptionally good.

Reading some EU may clarify this for you.

I understand Juyo uses multiple styles but it does not mean juyo or Vaapad are in any way superior to any other fighting style.

While they focus on multiple styles, a master of a single style or 2 styles could be better or worse. It all comes down to the individual.

Vaapad is different from Juyo, Juyo useres become completely consumed by their inner emotion, Vaapad users do not. They aim to channel their inner "negative/rejected (by jedi ways)" emotions into the light (emotionless), and draw power from it. Additionally they aim to feed off the opponents "Darkness".

However many jedi/sith already do this, they feed on the opponents force, both light and dark in combat.

Schi Cho - Beginner's form. It is what padawans learn. Simplest and easy to learn, but arguably least effective.

Niman - like Schi Cho, very simple and easy to learn. It is what Jedi who don;t have as much time to spend on combat and care more about diplomacy and being negotiators etc learn. Bit more advanced than schi cho but still among the weakest. Is also a required form for use of twin sabers however.

Makashi - Most technical form. Uses discipliens of distancing and timing, footwork and angles, balance and leverage. Great for seeing openings in your opponents guard and elaping in and out. Also good for dealing with an opponent of superior strength. However, with the most physical forms, if the opponent has too big a strenght/speed advantage it can overload your defences.

Soresu - great defencive form. Used to defend yourself at all costs, and tire your opponent out in the process, until they gas and you can take advantage by killing them. Like with Makashi, too big a strenght or speed advanatge though and your defence may be overwhelmed.

Djem So/Shien, Ataru, Juyo/Vaapad, Twin Sabers, Double-Bladed lightsaber:

These are the physical forms. Djem so/Shien uses speed and power. Ataru uses speed and agility, and aerial movements. Both are about as powerful as each other. Juyo/Vaapad more powerful than both and uses both speed and strength, as well as agility and acrobatics, almost a combination of both. Much harder to master however, as requires mastery of multiple other forms, and also has stron mental and emotional requirements, and requires mastery of lightside. Is also a requirement for double bladed lightsaber, which is even more powerful. Twin sabers about as powerful as double bladed lightsaber.

So bsically:

Weakest - Schi Cho, against all forms.

Seceond weakest - Niman, against all forms.

Makashi and Soresu beat the physical forms usually, but when the opponent is much more physically adept than you are you may get overwhelemed by their athelticism. Makashi beats Soresu.

For the physical forms, the order of strength is: Double-Bladed Lightsaber = Twin Sabers > Vapaad/Juyo > Ataru = Djem So/Shien. Caapad and Djem So are more advanced versions of other form they correspond with.

I disagree with your labeling of which is weakest and strongest. Juyo focuses heavily on physical aggression and overwhelming your opponent by being faster and stronger, however if your opponent is just as fast or strong, you will just become tired.

Additionally wookiepedia states (I believe its citing the official source for it too) that juyo leaves the practitioner open for Force related attacks, which makes sense.

Niman is not the weakest by any means, it is a melding of forms 1-4, thus Makashi, Soreseru, Niman, shi-cho. That is an extremely powerful form right there, it comes down to the practitioner...of course if they only train lightly they wont do well in combat. Additionally it is noted as being a stance most attuned to those who are powerful in the force, so i take it this style incorporates alot of force attacks in it.

But if they study Niman just as intensely as a Vaapad user, the winner is purely a toss up and dependent on the individuals strength, force power, speed, etc...not style.

Niman's speciality is for fighting multiple opponents at once, and focuses on utilizing sweeps, strokes, and your opponents/surroundings to your advantage.

Schi-Cho is the basics, however a master of the basics is just as dangerous as a master of vaapad. People assume only vaapad users have a state of mind....all fighters have a state of mind. An individual who is a master of the basics, movements, positioning, deflection, is truly scary.

No stance is a low ceiling form of combat, it all depends how far the user takes the philosophy.

However I do agree with you that, regardless of stance, style, philosophy, if your opponent's strength/speed/force power, is just way beyond what yours is...than no amount of superior skill is going to save you (IE Anakin Vs Dooku - Anakin's strength and speed were just so far beyond Dooku, that it overcame his skill, and style).

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
So bsically:

Weakest - Schi Cho, against all forms.

Seceond weakest - Niman, against all forms.

Makashi and Soresu beat the physical forms usually, but when the opponent is much more physically adept than you are you may get overwhelemed by their athelticism. Makashi beats Soresu.

For the physical forms, the order of strength is: Double-Bladed Lightsaber = Twin Sabers > Vapaad/Juyo > Ataru = Djem So/Shien. Caapad and Djem So are more advanced versions of other form they correspond with.

Yeah... No.

Sure your average Shii-Cho will lose to your average Juyo user but I'd argue thats not because Juyo is a better form but rather it takes far more practice to use than Shii-Cho which is rather basic. However, one could master Shii-Cho to a degree equal to a Juyo users mastery of Juyo.

This is seen with Exar Kun who has mastered Niman to a degree where he is relatively unparalled in his time. Basically, the form is a lot less important than the user's mastery of said form and the user's speed and strength.

Originally posted by ares834
Yeah... No.

Sure your average Shii-Cho will lose to your average Juyo user but I'd argue thats not because Juyo is a better form but rather it takes far more practice to use than Shii-Cho which is rather basic. However, one could master Shii-Cho to a degree equal to a Juyo users mastery of Juyo.

This is seen with Exar Kun who has mastered Niman to a degree where he is relatively unparalled in his time. Basically, the form is a lot less important than the user's mastery of said form and the user's speed and strength.

If you read my post right before yours, you will see we share very similar perceptions! =)

Disagree strongly. Styles make fights, and will sometimes be the deciding factor.

It is made clear that Shi Cho and Niman are the weakest of the lightsaber forms. They are not designed as high level forms, but beginner training and non-combat support.

High level ones are Soresu, Makashi, and the physical forms.

And yes, it is not impossible that a user of Schi Cho could defeat a user of Makashi in a lightsaber fight for example, he can get lucky, makashi guy may only have learnt its basics, and shi cho guy could be much much more powerful physically and with the force. But usually, user of Schi Cho will fall to Makashi and it is because it is not a very advanced form at all and Makashi is probably the best with only a weakness to the physical forms.

The grammatical quality of your posts has skyrocketed.

Thanke

Makashi has no weakness to physical forms, in fact it is a counter to physical forms.

As a previous posters stated when your opponents strength and or speed is so far beyond your own, it doesn't matter your style, your going to die.

Makashi is based on fencing. It uses distancing and reflex/timing to close distant and get in and out of range efficiently, it uses footwork and angles and rpecision to create and exploit openings in opponents guard, and uses balance and leverage to parry opponent's attacks. This can be used as an answer to the more physical storng fighter with better reach... but technique can never truly make up for overwhelming speed and power, so Makashi can be weak to the more physical forms when against a far greater athlete.

Not always. Makashi will almost always beat Soresu no matter how more ahtletic soresu user is, because soresu does not use physical tools to overpower opponents so makashi will not be overpowered, and because makahsi is also not physical the makashi user will not gas easily either. Soresu weathers the storm, tires the opponent out and then attacks. makahsi is not a storm but a rainbow, it will not tire as it ses technique instead of physicality, and will eventually pick the less technical form apart.

A lot of speculation here. Sources might better settle this.

Originally posted by Board Walker
I've been seeing multiple posters post that vaapad is superior to Juyo, or X, Y, Z styles. OR that it is inherently superior all around, which it is blatantly not.

Is it a state of mind? Sure, so is every other style of combat. Every fighter has his or her own state of mind.

Is drawing off the darkness of the your opponent or of your own self unique to vaapad? No. Not at all.

So tell me why is it so many claim vaapad is the end all of all saber styles?

P.S. Vaapad is not the finished product of Juyo, it is a variant of Juyo, Juyo is its own fighting style altogether.
Agree with you. Style is a style. There are Form I practitioners that are considered among finest swordsmen in Old Republic.
In fact real techniques are coming from Form I and II, the rest is just about tactics during combat, acrobatics and emotional state. Whatever style you learn, during actual combat you learn to defend against anything in most effective way possible, so ultimately during combat it is capabilities and skills that decide outcome, not the style.
Also, Vaapad teaches user to accept fury of opponent (enjoy fight) but in no way it means, that user gets empowered by opponent, it's just a common misinterpretation of wookieepedia source.

Frees from corruption? Out of three practitioners two fell to the darkside. The implication is clear that this Form is more dangerous, than simple Juyo as it makes user to focus on the inner darkness of his personality instead of simply using anger.

Vaapad is the most technically demanding per multiple sources and Yoda, master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat and warrior of eight centuries, regards it as the deadliest of all.

Is it inherently superior in strict bladework to other forms? Not necessarily, though by its very nature a Vaapad practitioner is more likely to be far more technically skilled than a practitioner of other forms.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Makashi is based on fencing. It uses distancing and reflex/timing to close distant and get in and out of range efficiently, it uses footwork and angles and rpecision to create and exploit openings in opponents guard, and uses balance and leverage to parry opponent's attacks. This can be used as an answer to the more physical storng fighter with better reach... but technique can never truly make up for overwhelming speed and power, so Makashi can be weak to the more physical forms when against a far greater athlete.

Not always. Makashi will almost always beat Soresu no matter how more ahtletic soresu user is, because soresu does not use physical tools to overpower opponents so makashi will not be overpowered, and because makahsi is also not physical the makashi user will not gas easily either. Soresu weathers the storm, tires the opponent out and then attacks. makahsi is not a storm but a rainbow, it will not tire as it ses technique instead of physicality, and will eventually pick the less technical form apart.

Makashi uses some elements of fencing, does it mean it replicates fencing? No hardly at all.

It borrows the concept of using parry and footwork, so does every other form of combat in existence. Fencing isn't a form of combat so much as it is a form of sport.

Makashi has no inherent advantage against Sorseru, nor does any other style have any inherent advantage against another style.

It all depends on what the person trains for, if the person uses Niman and trains just as extensively in blade to blade combat as a makashi user, the makashi user wont have any advantage over him in regards to saber vs saber.

It is the same in MMA, no form of fighting is superior to another, it all comes down to the individual's skill, style, and physical abilities.

Originally posted by Arhael
Frees from corruption? Out of three practitioners two fell to the darkside. The implication is clear that this Form is more dangerous, than simple Juyo as it makes user to focus on the inner darkness of his personality instead of simply using anger.

If Vaapad is used properly one shouldn't fall to the dark side. As, according to Windu, with Vaapad one skirts the edge of the dark side. If you don't have the proper discipline and control than you can easily fall. Meanwhile, Juyo actively uses the dark side.

Any style that emphasizes dueling with one-hand and using fanciful twirls is going to be inherently vulnerable against styles that utilize brute force, like Djem/So.

It doesn't take an official source to recognize that, it's common sense.

That being said, we see Dooku using a lot of two-handed grip techniques when fighting Anakin in RotS, so it stands to reason that there's more to Makashi than the one-handed gurlyman twirls.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Any style that emphasizes dueling with one-hand and using fanciful twirls is going to be inherently vulnerable against styles that utilize brute force, like Djem/So.

It doesn't take an official source to recognize that, it's common sense.

That being said, we see Dooku using a lot of two-handed grip techniques when fighting Anakin in RotS, so it stands to reason that there's more to Makashi than the one-handed gurlyman twirls.

Considering it's the peak of lightsaber fighting during Sith versus Jedi battles for millennia, I'd say so.

You say a lot of things, Crazy Old Maurice.

Just stay off my lawn, kid. Go listen to your raps and shoot all the jobs.

Originally posted by ares834
If Vaapad is used properly one shouldn't fall to the dark side. As, according to Windu, with Vaapad one skirts the edge of the dark side. If you don't have the proper discipline and control than you can easily fall. Meanwhile, Juyo actively uses the dark side.
Yet, there are many Jedi that practiced Juyo and even were council members. While I agree about darkside, when anger is not based on hatred, vengeance, desire to kill and other malicious intends, it is not as bad. It's more like you get emotional during a sparring and give out occasional roars but at the same time you are not really pissed off about anything. You can simply put passion in your fighting and strike with full passion, which is still emotional but not angry.
Also, Windu himself was practitioner of Juyo before creating Vaapad. While Juyo is said to be "controversial among order", Vaapad brings user "perilously close to darkside", which in my opinion is far worse. And surely Vaapad was no less controversial among order. Kenobi got interest in it, yet, Qui-Gon prohibited it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yet, there are many Jedi that practiced Juyo and even were council members.

Not many. The form is, after all, pretty much banned by the time of the movies and only the most powerful Jedi are shown to know it's techniques.


Originally posted by Arhael
It's more like you get emotional during a sparring and give out occasional roars but at the same time you are not really pissed off about anything. You can simply put passion in your fighting and strike with full passion, which is still emotional but not angry.

According to Path of the Jedi, it doesn't merely require passion and excitement but also rage.

And Darth Bane claims to use it fully one most also rely on their fear, fury, and hatred. And this doesn't appear to be just normal "Sith speak" as he never claims these are required to embrace when utilizing the other "Sith forms".

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Windu himself was practitioner of Juyo before creating Vaapad. While Juyo is said to be "controversial among order", Vaapad brings user "perilously close to darkside", which in my opinion is far worse.

According to Path of the Jedi and Book of Sith, Juyo doesn't merely bring the user close to the dark side but they actively use it!

Originally posted by ares834
According to Path of the Jedi and Book of Sith, Juyo doesn't merely bring the user close to the dark side but they actively use it! Emm, so Vaapad does not involve active use of the darkside?

I've seen nothing to indicate that they use it to that extant. According to Mace, Vaapad just scratches the surface or as he calls it the "penumbra of the dark side." Furthermore, I can't recall anything stating that it requires an emotion as dark as rage.

Originally posted by ares834
I've seen nothing to indicate that they use it to that extant. According to Mace, Vaapad just scratches the surface or as he calls it the "penumbra of the dark side." Furthermore, I can't recall anything stating that it requires an emotion as dark as rage. It all gets confusing, contradictory and brain exploding.
Before I was thinking about it simply. Juyo - the guy fights with fury and roars. Vaapad - the guy taps into his inner darkness, receives nonsense from opponent and answers with equally nasty nonsense causing loop thingy and even takes sick enjoyment out of it.
But now you messed me up completely. I give up!

Vaapad does draw on the users darkside. Its why Windu only approved teaching it to so few, the risk of falling to the darkside is very great. But I'm sure that he describes Vaapad as allowing him to tap into his own darkness and get angry without actually falling.

By the way. Anakin was getting Angry without falling as well as killing. During fights with Dooku he looked to me like perfect example of Juyo practitioner.

I'm not saying it doesn't use the dark side, after all it does. But it doesn't seem to use the darker emotions like fear, anger, and hatred. Rather it uses Mace's emotions like excitement and his desire for victory. If you use Vaapad properly these emotions won't be able to affect you as seen with Windu. But using it improperly it can.

"And he (Sora Bulq) did not master Vaapad. Vaapad mastered him."

Originally posted by Board Walker
Makashi uses some elements of fencing, does it mean it replicates fencing? No hardly at all.

According to Nick yes it dose.



None of the other forms havw the same amount of footwork which is key in makashi ans most at least defend head on for mostly.



Yes it does, styles make fights. Makashi is the most technical form of them allk and doesn;t use as much physical energy so the soreasu strategy of tiring opponent out is nearly useukless. Soresu is designed to weather the storm, it can not offer up an adequatew defence ot skillfull fencing. it will get outfenced by makashi 9 times out of ten.

Soresu won;t be nearly as effective against Makahsi as it would the Djem So's, Ataru's and Vapaaads. Because when you face makashi you enter a fencing match and you will lose every time unlkess you physically overwhelm the user, and because soresu's gimick becomes useless when opponent does not rely too much on physical energy in the way they fights.



Nonsence some forms are just plain better than others, especiaslly in their particular matchup and this is case. Same person with same skills and everything spends same time learnign borh forms, the makashi guy wins every time.



Not true, as Joe TRpgan would say, "styles make fights." Look at recent matchup with Frank Mir and J2S. Both very deadly fighters but in this case striking + takedown defence will beat submission specialist every time. Same with Jon Jones and people with long reach, any decent boxer or karate master who has good sense of distancing will deal with it far better than a kickboxer or muaythai practitioner and you see it in jon jones opponents where machida actually gave him good fight in the standup despite massive reach disadvantage, whereas people like shogun rashad and rampage who are also all great stand up guys got destroyed because they do not use striking styles with good distancing princisples.

No, it doesn't. The fighters make the fight, not styles. Whatever your style is you can learn to counter anything with it. There is a saying: "There is no best martial art". And if Dooku loses to grabbing technique, it doesn't make his style weak against Form V, it means that he lacks in defense against grabbing techniques.

Originally posted by Arhael
No, it doesn't. The fighters make the fight, not styles. Whatever your style is you can learn to counter anything with it. There is a saying: "There is no best martial art". And if Dooku loses to grabbing technique, it doesn't make his style weak against Form V, it means that he lacks in defense against grabbing techniques.

This right here, when it comes to combat style does not make the fight. It the individuals skill, intelligence, and physical abilities. No style is superior to any other style, it is all about the individual, this is seen repeatedly in real mixed martial arts fights.

Makashi has no inherent advantage over any other style. Why is it good versus other sabers? Perhaps because the user focuses purely on fighting other sabers. Now if a niman user spent the same amount of time practicing and training for purely saber versus saber, neither he nor the makashi would have advantage over one another in terms of style. It would come down to physical speed, strength, and intelligence.

As for Juyo Versus Vaapad, Vaapad does NOT use the darkside in the manner Juyo does. Juyo practitioners completely submerge themselves in the darkside, they meld with FEAR, HATRED, JEALOUSY, PAIN, and so forth. They quite simply become one with them.

Vaapad users attempt to channel the very edges of the darkness within them and use it as a driving force to power them. They never submerge themselves fully in the darkside, they as Mace said only skirt the very edge of it to draw power, while at the same time still channeling the light side of the force.

Vaapad and Juyo are entirely different, Vaapad attempts to use both Light and dark side energies simultaneously but keeping them seperate from one another.

While Juyo completely is 100% dark side submergence, does it mean just being all angry and shouting? No not at all, as Bane said it is entirely different from any other form of sith style. The user must actively be able to channel and meld with Fear, Hatred, Pain, Jealousy, this is not some thing easy to do nor can any sith do this.

By your own admission certain styles imploy specific metaphysical traits that for all intents and purposes make them superior to other forms that lack those properties. Of course a user who is able to both draw from the darkside as well as channel inner darkness into a weapon of the light enjoys a certain advantage over opponents who do not. It is because of this that Vaapad can be considered a superior form and most definitely the deadliest. Does that mean that a Vaapad user will ALWAYS defeat say a Shi Cho user? Not necessarily. However, between warriors of a reasonably similar combat prowess, the Vaapad user should come out the victor save for certain variables. The form in and of itself, with all its metaphysical Force related properties, is indeed superior.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
By your own admission certain styles imploy specific metaphysical traits that for all intents and purposes make them superior to other forms that lack those properties. Of course a user who is able to both draw from the darkside as well as channel inner darkness into a weapon of the light enjoys a certain advantage over opponents who do not. It is because of this that Vaapad can be considered a superior form and most definitely the deadliest. Does that mean that a Vaapad user will ALWAYS defeat say a Shi Cho user? Not necessarily. However, between warriors of a reasonably similar combat prowess, the Vaapad user should come out the victor save for certain variables. The form in and of itself, with all its metaphysical Force related properties, is indeed superior.

Using both Light and Dark has never shown to be an inherent advantage versus using purely dark or purely light. IE Revan Versus Sith Emperor.

Vaapad is entirely different from Juyo, in that it is made so the practitioner does not fall to the dark side, does not use dark side energy. What it does aim to do is draw upon the users inner darkness and stay on the very edges of it, drawing upon it and converting it to the light. So not they are not using both Light and Dark, they are using the very edges of the dark side to convert it into light energy for their own use.

Juyo Users completely channel the dark side unihinibited, additionally they try on darkness wherever it is, their surroundings or their own self or others near them.

Vaapad is not unique in that is draws on the opponents darkness, of which vaapad has a limit as it does not want its user to fall to the dark side. Vaapad is only able to draw on the edges of the darkness of both the own user and their opponent.

While Juyo is able to limitlessly draw on all darkness of the user and everything around them. In all honesty an equal Juyo user facing an equal vaapad user would find the Juyo user holding an advantage over the vaapad user in my opinion under the condition that the Juyo user is extremely potent in the dark side as well as the vaapad user being potent in the dark side. Why does the Juyo user have an advantage? BC the vaapad user is extremely limited in what he can channel of the dark side of both his own self and target, while the juyo user is not.

It put Vitiate on his ass.
As to why it wasn't a decisive advantage, the text was very clear that Vitiate is significantly more skilled in his Force use than Revan. JT's scenario specifically mentioned that both combatants would be on par with one another.

But this is Sith perception of it. Surely for Jedi it wouldn't be the same.
I mean naturally during fight or even sport people become emotive and Jedi practicing Juyo instead of restraining those emotions, embrace them and as result fight more aggressively. As I said there are examples of Jedi practicing Juyo and they are not described as badass. We can't assume that those Jedi tap into fear, hatered and rage, obviously they restrain themselves from such extreme levels.
Another matter is that Sith unlike Jedi take full advantage of Juyo as they don't need to restrain themselves. But succumbing to rage while gives Sith immence power, it, also, results in recklesness and innacuracy. So while Jedi don't fully benefit from Juyo, they retain more self-control and precision.


Indeed using both light and darkside gives an edge, however, other Form users, can draw from both sides as well.
Also, personality plays major factor in here. While I agree with Board Walker that those who can give in fully to light or dark are superior to any hybrids, however, it is extremely difficult. It's not easy for Jedi to maintain perfect calm, when it is so frustrating or for Sith to get enraged without losing precision.
Windu utilizing Vaapad is fat better, than Windu putting most effort to compose himself, Vaapad goes in accord with his personality. So, Vaapad is superior but only for certain characters.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
It put Vitiate on his ass.
As to why it wasn't a decisive advantage, the text was very clear that Vitiate is significantly more skilled in his Force use than Revan. JT's scenario specifically mentioned that both combatants would be on par with one another.

The effect was barely more powerful than a regular Force Push.

Careful, LeGenD might rip you a new one.

To be fair though, if we assume that Vitiate has his guards seeming immunity to TK (which is entirely possible given that the text says they get it from him), then even having that much of an effect could be seen as impressive I guess.

True. Though, to be fairer, he was concentrating on telepathically raping Revan and I believe the text notes that significant attention and energy were directed to that endeavor. Putting a man on his ass if his TK shields are low isn't that impressive.

True. But Bullshit LeGenD Excuse no134 (tm) makes it impressive again.

Conceded.

I stand firmly by the position that using both light and dark has no inherent advantage over pure dark or pure light.

Using both light and dark is not inherently stronger or weaker than purely use one side or the other.

People assume a Vaapad user is tapping 100% light and 100% dark, it doesn't work that way.

Each individual still has a limit to how much they can channel the force, so maybe they are doing 50/50 or 60/40 light, versus some one 100% dark. The percentage of light to dark they channel doesnt dictate their power so much as their expertise is utilizing the force and the amount they channel.

Juyo is an incomplete form for jedis because they cannot fully use it, in fact they can barely use it with all the restraint they have in their teachings.

Vaapad is made so jedis have a variant of juyo to use, to draw on the very edges of darkness and convert it to light side which than powers them.

I'll make this clear, Vaapad users DO NOT channel the dark side as their power, they tap the edges of darkness so they may draw on it and convert it to light side energy which than fuels their power.

Juyo users 100% channel darkside energy and use it 100% to power themselves.

I miss the old days when you just asked questions. You were so eager to learn, your child-like sense of wonder was refreshing. God bless you.

Shut up, Haruhi is awesome.

I don't know what that is but it sounds vaguely Japanese and therefore completely gay.

I think she's bisexual actually. Haruhi is the person in Board Walkers avatar and sig.

She is also omnipotent.

Ragnos could take her.

Haruhi sucks.

Women with personalities like hers are the reason why the male-female dynamic is so ****ed up right now.

Yeah but she jump kicked a dude in the head for no reason and molests a hot girl daily, therefore she is kewl.

Speaking of anime, I have an attractive coworker who not only publicly admits to liking it, but also to having cosplayed before.

Needless to say this resulted in an unprecedented paradigm shift.

Cosplayers can be hot. Just look at these two Legolas' being in lesbians with each other:

http://images.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2010/03/Link_cosplay_01.jpg

They exude the image of attention whores who have never actually played the game but seek to arouse the hordes of nerds at such conventions.

Oh, you're related then?

They lack my physical beauty, so doubtful.

Are you sure they're girls?

Haha, you assume I care.


But yeah, they are. Just very androgynous.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Are you sure they're girls?
No male cosplayer has that kind of complexion.

It is when the user is pitted against dark side users which a lot of the time is the case.

Originally posted by Toshi
It is when the user is pitted against dark side users which a lot of the time is the case.

Juyo Vs Vaapad user, there is no inherent advantage between the two.

Juyo is completely feeding off of dark side energy from all around them, as well as all negative emotion such as fear, hatred, jealousy, rage, doubt.

Vaapad user is feeding off of the light side energy all around them, and skirting the edges of the dark side energy around them, to transform it into more light side energy.

Juyo user is going to feeding off all negative emotions such as fear, hatred, jealousy, anger, doubt both of their own self and all around as well as the dark side energy around them. Vaapad user is limited in the dark side energy they canconvert to light side, it really comes down to who has better force reserves and speed, strength.

Where are you getting this information? State your sourcea, please.

Never have I read where Juyo has inherent dark side anything, Board Walker.

All of this seems awfully suspicious.

I'm pretty sure Bane does confirm or suggest it in The Book of Sith.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Where are you getting this information? State your sourcea, please.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Never have I read where Juyo has inherent dark side anything, Board Walker.

All of this seems awfully suspicious.

Refer to this please, both of the above quotes. Juyo is stated to be a complete combat form for the sith, as it draws entirely off the negative emotions and fully submerges the user in "darkness". specifically Juyo feeds on fear, anger, rage, jealousy, doubt, emotion, etc.


Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
I'm pretty sure Bane does confirm or suggest it in The Book of Sith.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Using both Light and Dark has never shown to be an inherent advantage versus using purely dark or purely light. IE Revan Versus Sith Emperor.

Vaapad is entirely different from Juyo, in that it is made so the practitioner does not fall to the dark side, does not use dark side energy. What it does aim to do is draw upon the users inner darkness and stay on the very edges of it, drawing upon it and converting it to the light. So not they are not using both Light and Dark, they are using the very edges of the dark side to convert it into light energy for their own use.

Juyo Users completely channel the dark side unihinibited, additionally they try on darkness wherever it is, their surroundings or their own self or others near them.

Vaapad is not unique in that is draws on the opponents darkness, of which vaapad has a limit as it does not want its user to fall to the dark side. Vaapad is only able to draw on the edges of the darkness of both the own user and their opponent.

While Juyo is able to limitlessly draw on all darkness of the user and everything around them. In all honesty an equal Juyo user facing an equal vaapad user would find the Juyo user holding an advantage over the vaapad user in my opinion under the condition that the Juyo user is extremely potent in the dark side as well as the vaapad user being potent in the dark side. Why does the Juyo user have an advantage? BC the vaapad user is extremely limited in what he can channel of the dark side of both his own self and target, while the juyo user is not.

Your OP is based on the premise Vaapad isn't superior to any other saber style. I provided evidence stating that it is. Are we now comparing Vaapad and Juyo? Or are we going to stick with cpmaring Vaapad and "any other saber style" as you originally put it? Vaapad with its metaphysical properties is by all means superior to forms that lack these properties. And to think otherwise is, well... illogical.

I was mistaken. The Book of Sith does not declare Juyo to be an inherently dark side form, though it does mention that you must allow your emotions to fuel you. Bane mentions fear, hatred, anger, etc.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Refer to this please, both of the above quotes. Juyo is stated to be a complete combat form for the sith, as it draws entirely off the negative emotions and fully submerges the user in "darkness". specifically Juyo feeds on fear, anger, rage, jealousy, doubt, emotion, etc. I said where are you getting this information from? Provide the passage and the page number of whatever document you're getting this from.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
I was mistaken. The Book of Sith does not declare Juyo to be an inherently dark side form, though it does mention that you must allow your emotions to fuel you. Bane mentions fear, hatred, anger, etc.

We ought to consider the source too though. Sith practice of Juyo may be different. I wish I could recall what Kevar tells you in KotOR II when he trains you in it.

The book of Sith. You're talking about Juyo as practiced by the Sith, which may be different from the Jedi tradition

Aggressive, yeah, but meant to be unpredictable in practice. Maybe it' son Youtube, but Kavar talks about the fighting style before he learns you it in the game. May give a Jedi perspective since the only other time we see Juyo described is after it is infused with Vaapad's "finishing touches".

To clear the air ,on the Vaapad Factor,it is up to the practitioner 's skill and mastery of that style.Yoda said it was the deadliest.Vaapad does draw,excuse me (feed)on the dark side.Examples,Depa vs Mace,read Shatterpoint.Now the state of mind of Vaapad,is what makes it unique from any form of lightsaber combat.Mace,Sora,Depa and Quinlin Vos had a very unique and different approach to its state of mind.Mace created Vaapad,Sora refined Vaapad,Depa surpassed both creators and Quinlan,mastered Vaapad to a degree that he doesn't even know that he mastered Vaapad.
Now someone is confused.o.k Vaapad is the best,why?BC it gets the job done.It excepts the willingness to kill,it excepts the willingness not to kill. read (Shatter Point).Vaapad has the skills of each lightsaber style,it deflects blaster bolts like soresu and shien,light saber to light saber combat like makashi and djem so,uses the force in combat and lightsaber sequences like niman as well as uses jar'kai(dual saber)fights multiple opponents like shii cho and its knowledge of the target zones.juyo its unpredictability,its controlled passion,everything Juyo is,Vaapad is a lil bit more.Sure any style can have a state of mind but can they have the mind to kill like Juyo and Vaapad?

After reading every ones replies,I think they all were great!!!! How ever I disagreed with some.You brought up some good points but you're missing the big picture.Vaapad is the superior style whether on the battle field or what it generally specialises in dueling and killing dark siders.Remember in shatter point ,Depa said to win this war we must no longer be jedi? you cannot go into war with a jedi state of mind but a warrior 's state of mind.u can't use the diplomatic lightsaber forms you gotta use the aggressive ones and what better aggressive style than the ultimate aggressive style of Juyo and Vaapad.You can use Shien/Djem So,you can use Ataru to some degree,even Soresu not by itself . After seeing Obi Wan use Soresu + Ataru +Jar'kai + a lil of Shii cho and whatever martial art style he was using in the Revival episode,I personally have a new respect for Obi Wan Kenobi.its practitioners like him that analyse a style's weakness,go back and find another style to counter that weakness and use that style or styles to his advantage.Now a practitioner of any style can do the same thing and counter any style but if that practitioner is not use to fighting a true master of Juyo or Vaapad then he or she has their work cut out for them!!!!

The space bar on a keyboard is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be... illegible.

And the Enter key helps too.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
read (Shatter Point).Vaapad has the skills of each lightsaber style,it deflects blaster bolts like soresu and shien,light saber to light saber combat like makashi and djem so,uses the force in combat and lightsaber sequences like niman as well as uses jar'kai(dual saber)fights multiple opponents like shii cho and its knowledge of the target zones.

Where does it say this in Shatterpoint? Chapter and Page number please.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And the Enter key helps too.



Where does it say this in Shatterpoint? Chapter and Page number please.


O.k. my bad got a little too excited....What I mentioned about Vaapad's skills is not in Shatter Point,

it's just a theory of mine. Think Lord in order to learn Vaapad,you had to learn multiple styles of lightsaber combat,including Juyo. If that is what we are to believe.

Example,Quinlan Vos....learns Shii cho,then Ataru...a little later learns Shien.
When they retrain him Sora Bulq teaches him Vaapad. How much of it we do not know.

Mace spars with Quilan.... Mace recognises Vaapad in his blade work. Immediately haults the duel.
Mace asks who taught him,Quinlan says Sora Bulq but he didn't say what the technique was or its origin. In my opinion Vaapad borrows the skills I mentioned.

Vaapad is the finished product of Juyo. With 3 different masters to learn it from.

I know Sora Bulq is dead,but Mace Windu,I refuse to believe is dead. Depa is in a comma,this is true did she survive the purge? I believe someone saved her from the purge. Maul returns from the dead Krayt returns also but dies again .

I believe she's in somebody 's hospital under an alias name,constantly being watched and monitored like that pilot in the millennium falcon.book . very good book one of my fav's.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
O.k. my bad got a little too excited....What I mentioned about Vaapad's skills is not in Shatter Point,

it's just a theory of mine. Think Lord in order to learn Vaapad,you had to learn multiple styles of lightsaber combat,including Juyo. If that is what we are to believe.

Example,Quinlan Vos....learns Shii cho,then Ataru...a little later learns Shien.
When they retrain him Sora Bulq teaches him Vaapad. How much of it we do not know.

Mace spars with Quilan.... Mace recognises Vaapad in his blade work. Immediately haults the duel.
Mace asks who taught him,Quinlan says Sora Bulq but he didn't say what the technique was or its origin. In my opinion Vaapad borrows the skills I mentioned.


Lord,there is alot about Juyo/Vaapad that the authors are not telling us. In Shatterpoint, Mace and Depa are reflecting blaster bolts with their lightsabers using the power of Vaapad. I don't remember the pages but they both use the Jar'Kai tactic with each other's lightsabers.

In Shatterpoint,Mace explains to Kar about Vaapad and the Jedi Rules (pp 399-401).

Before these pages you'll read them using some form of acrobatics but not as graceful as
Ataru. As you read on Mace is CONSTANTLY aware of the dangers of using Vaapad in certain situations and in certain areas of the jungle.

It doesn't surprise me that Mace shows Ataru and Niman moves. Because Juyo/Vapaad users have to be high level masters of multiple forms.

But still I don't believe any form is the all and end all. End of the day Maul is a Juyo Master. In fact I think he completely mastered it. But he clearly can't defeat Kenobi in a strict Saber match.

Starkiller was also a user of Juyo, yet he had difficulty in pretty much every lightsaber fight he was in.

So clearly there's a lot more to Lightsaber fights than what form they use, and how many forms they know.

Combat smarts, battle tactics the level of mastery in their chosen form and of course their level of connection to the force all make a HUGE Difference in Saber combat.

I disagree,why BC the Jedi will stay true to that style's philosophy or traditions.

Kit Fisto stated that he should have been more wild and unpredictable in a past duel.
Being that his chosen style is Shii cho,he would be breaking
Shii cho's true purpose,to disarm an opponent not kill an opponent.

Like I said in my other posts Vaapad accepts this skill of Shii cho.
Shatterpoint (pp 399-401) Mace disarms Kar Vastor instead of killing him.
Mace also uses a masterful display of telekinesis to disarm him.
(A) Niman uses any technique of the Force in mid duel.
(B) Makashi uses the same and so does Shii cho.


What iI'm trying to say is Vaapad uses any technique that suits the state of mind of the practitioner or in this case.....Master. The technique would be Vaapad - fueled .

Now JuyoMaster,just what the hell are you talking about? Vaapad - fueled ?

IF yall remember ,the Vaapad essay(very well written)it explains almost everything what Board Walker does n't understand about Vaapad.

O.K Vaapad - Fueled : it is the immersion and the mentality of (1) Wanting to win (2)Wanting to fight. in other words a technique, skill or Force ability dangerously practiced (linked ) with Vaapad's state of mind .


Keep in MIND 3 masters 3 different states of mind this will also determine the winner between vaapad vs vaapad. might be stale mate might be one still standing as its true master.

Very good point, Darth Power.But here's the key Obi Wan recognises Maul's flaws and capitalizes on them. Maul is starting to use Dun Moch with his Juyo .

Obi Wan uses inverse Dun Moch with his Soresu.
Obi Wan is borrowing techniques from his mastery of Ataru as well as Soresu
And his advanced skills in Shii cho and Niman. now he combines all this into a hybrid form of no name which he absolutely kicks your ass with defensively though.

remember he is a master of Niman's "pure root " Soresu. (wookieepedia) Soresu /Niman

Let's not forget Sokan,he knows that,too. So does Maul.
Maul is one of my fav's too,but is really not a SithLord

He is a living weapon of the Sith (Darth Plagueis) pages not sure/ also wookieepedia

Maul has finally learned to never lower your guard until your opponent is dead but his pride and over confidence still gets the best of him. He has grown strong and patient.

He lacks the real training of a real Sith Lord.
Dun Moch affects both Maul and Kenobi
Their duel ended in a stale mate, but Savage was clearly defeated.

Maul is blinded by his rage and hatred for Kenobi.
once he learns to calm his rages and channel his hatred then he will be abel to defeat Obi Wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It doesn't surprise me that Mace shows Ataru and Niman moves. Because Juyo/Vapaad users have to be high level masters of multiple forms.

But still I don't believe any form is the all and end all. End of the day Maul is a Juyo Master. In fact I think he completely mastered it. But he clearly can't defeat Kenobi in a strict Saber match.

Starkiller was also a user of Juyo, yet he had difficulty in pretty much every lightsaber fight he was in.

So clearly there's a lot more to Lightsaber fights than what form they use, and how many forms they know.

Combat smarts, battle tactics the level of mastery in their chosen form and of course their level of connection to the force all make a HUGE Difference in Saber combat.


Mace was a Juyo master before he was a Vaapad master
Vaapad has a huge connection to the Force.
His chosen Form is Vaapad,true master/creator


you're right I explained part of Vaapad's Force Mastery
Combat smarts check,battle tactics, check
level.... Master
connection to the Force my friend you can use Vaapad with or with out the Force
with state of mind with out state of mind switch it up vice or versa

Mace used Vaapad in many battles and won.
battle tactics? One or two - saber Vaapad?
armed or unarmed?

Force Mastery,the only light saber style besides sith juyo to use Force Crush without falling to the Dark Side.
using dark side powers as well as light side powers to the level of mastery.
Not just borrows their strengths I really mean adapt to whatever or who ever may come.


Force mastery is one of the requirements needed to practise this Form.

I agree with your answers. that's why it's more than a lightsaber style
it's a state of mind.Mace can wield Vaapad without even activating his lightsaber
it's not the end all evil but it is the end all style (in personal) combat or warefare


it respects the other styles it'just if someone gets out of line (personally) its the one you want first in your arsenal. Trust me we haven't seen its full potential

Quick question, why didn't the Council choose the chosen one or the negotiator to arrest Depa?
or any other Jedi? BC they would have died. In personal combat Vaapad always win. you send another living weapon to kill another living weapon.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Very good point, Darth Power.But here's the key Obi Wan recognises Maul's flaws and capitalizes on them. Maul is starting to use Dun Moch with his Juyo .

Obi Wan uses inverse Dun Moch with his Soresu.
Obi Wan is borrowing techniques from his mastery of Ataru as well as Soresu
And his advanced skills in Shii cho and Niman. now he combines all this into a hybrid form of no name which he absolutely kicks your ass with defensively though.

remember he is a master of Niman's "pure root " Soresu. (wookieepedia) Soresu /Niman

Let's not forget Sokan,he knows that,too. So does Maul.
Maul is one of my fav's too,but is really not a SithLord

He is a living weapon of the Sith (Darth Plagueis) pages not sure/ also wookieepedia

Maul has finally learned to never lower your guard until your opponent is dead but his pride and over confidence still gets the best of him. He has grown strong and patient.

He lacks the real training of a real Sith Lord.
Dun Moch affects both Maul and Kenobi
Their duel ended in a stale mate, but Savage was clearly defeated.

Maul is blinded by his rage and hatred for Kenobi.
once he learns to calm his rages and channel his hatred then he will be abel to defeat Obi Wan.

To make this shorter,Kenobi remembers past duel and Ataru 's weakness of confined spaces
wields two saber Ataru with what I said in other post (sokan and jar'kai )are apart of advanced Ataru
kenobi remembers past duel and tries to separate the brothers.
he fails but notices something predictable in savage's foot work, stance ,etc.
strategic decision to attack his knees(closest target to you )
succeeds and follows up with a deadly remove weapon arm (Cho sun)

Maul halts duel force pushes kenobi and retreats with a severely wounded Savage

Originally posted by juyomaster34



Maul is one of my fav's too,but is really not a SithLord

He is a living weapon of the Sith (Darth Plagueis) pages not sure/ also wookieepedia

That's got nothing to do with his combat abilities. He completely mastered Juyo and yet seems incapable of defeating Kenobi in pure Saber combat.

Also the route the CW show is taking is that Darth Maul was trained very well "in all the ways of the Sith" (according to Dave Filoni) and clearly is going to show he is a Galaxy wide threat.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's got nothing to do with his combat abilities. He completely mastered Juyo and yet seems incapable of defeating Kenobi in pure Saber combat.

Also the route the CW show is taking is that Darth Maul was trained very well "in all the ways of the Sith" (according to Dave Filoni) and clearly is going to show he is a Galaxy wide threat.

yes I agree Maul is one of top fav's.

He is trained in all the ways of the Sith. trained as a living Sith weapon.
Maul was never trained to replace Palpatine.
Remember Sidious trained him well but not as his successor.

Your right about that,he did master juyo big BUT,
instead of finishing Kenobi
like I said in last post but in not so many words
he dropped his guard and Kenobi cut him in half.

Kenobi is a strategist, negotiator,his combat skills (wookieepedia) and any where else on the net,
what I'm saying about some styles is whatever your personality is its gonna go hand and hand
with that style.

certain styles are bred for combat
Maul may be a threat to the Galaxy but how long will you think Palpatine is gonna let Maul have free reign in the Galaxy?

That's Maul 's version of Juyo. Kenobi hasn't beat Yoda or Mace in a duel yet.
Maul has to find a way to best Obi Wan's skill.
Good talk Darth Power you pointed out some good points You win now back to Vaapad.

The combat skills and etc.(wookipedia) any where on the net,role playing books
Too much to write Do you have a fav lightsaber style or are you blaster carring bounty hunter?

you guys say it's not better it really is,someone mentioned both sides of the Force.
it does uses both sides
Revan and the emperor,Revan was betrayed
distracted by exile's death

I'm gonna say it depends on the practitioner and his mindset
There will be a successor to Vaapad
It's all on the powers that be
You guys are great good thread

For the record in CW I'm getting tired of seeing Obi Wan and Anakin in nearly all the episodes
what about the council?other Jedi,Even an episode on Yoda's or Mace's past
Any good thread I'll be on the others' soon.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
yes I agree Maul is one of top fav's.

He is trained in all the ways of the Sith. trained as a living Sith weapon.
Maul was never trained to replace Palpatine.
Remember Sidious trained him well but not as his successor.

I'm saying I think CW might be about to retcon this idea.

Why would Sidious train him with the abilities to take over the Galaxy if he were dead sure he never wanted Maul to be his successor??

He was clearly trained as more than just an assassin.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Your right about that,he did master juyo big BUT,
instead of finishing Kenobi
like I said in last post but in not so many words
he dropped his guard and Kenobi cut him in half.


I wasn't talking about Kenobi cutting him in half in TPM. That was obviously a lucky/surprise move.

I meant in the last CW episode. It seems that Maul despite his power up can not defeat Kenobi in Sabers. So Juyo doesn't automatically beat every other form.

That's what I'm saying. Kenobi despite not knowing any Juyo is probably one of the Top Prequel are duelists. Heck he may be among the top duelists of all time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm saying I think CW might be about to retcon this idea.

Why would Sidious train him with the abilities to take over the Galaxy if he were dead sure he never wanted Maul to be his successor??

He was clearly trained as more than just an assassin.



I wasn't talking about Kenobi cutting him in half in TPM. That was obviously a lucky/surprise move.

I meant in the last CW episode. It seems that Maul despite his power up can not defeat Kenobi in Sabers. So Juyo doesn't automatically beat every other form.

That's what I'm saying. Kenobi despite not knowing any Juyo is probably one of the Top Prequel are duelists. Heck he may be among the top duelists of all time.

I agree and you're right.He clearly was trained as more than just an assassin.
Now that Maul is back,Will Sidious reveal himself to Maul??
Or test Maul's skill against Grievous to make him earn a surprise visit from his former Master??
Juyo doesn't beat any form,automatically no.

Kenobi is in that list of top duelist,Mace bestowed the rank of master of soresu to Kenobi.
In my opinion I believe Kenobi talked to Mace or Yoda about Juyo and wanted to know how
he could best Maul without learning Juyo which is still forbidden for even Masters to learn.

The Rank of Master? try wookieepedia or somewhere else

Mace:That's is so like you,Master Kenobi. I am called a great swordsman because I
invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form - or the Master of
the classic form? Mace Windu to Obi Wan Kenobi.
wookieepedia

Toward the end of the CW,Master Windu acknowledged Obi Wan Kenobi as the Master of Soresu. wookieepedia

Clearly I have under estimated certain truths and opinions about this topic.
Vaapad is not inhertly better by itself,it's the practitioners of the style and how well they have
mastered Vaapad and what they bring to the style.

In my opinion,in ROTS both book and movie,Vaapad's ultimate test against the most Powerful Sith Lord in history was flawed. The focus was clearly not on this duel. It was too short. it was not in the true interests on who would win.

Anakin was the focus as well as the shatterpoint. Mace realised this too late.
Mace had attachments to Dooku,he couldn't kill his friend in AOTC.

And clearly Dooku was the shatterpoint of that event.
I didn't read Dark Rendezous but clearly the same reason that the duel ended in a draw or stale mate is his attachments to his friend.

We still have yet to see Vaapad face it's ultimate test. Master Billaba was clearly a factor.Her Mastery of Vaapad would have turned the tide in many battles if she had n't gone to Haruun Kal. Her version of Vaapad might have helped Mace against Sidious. Instead of taking those guys who clearly weren't Masters of their craft.

There was a reply that Mace could n't beat Sora Bulq.
In that duel they both felt Jedi die in the Force.Mace had to end the duel to save the remaining padawans from Ventress.

You have certain styles and masters that are good for certain missions. Obi wan and Anakin are examples on this. When the Council rarely act on a mission that requires a true Master, they send Obi wan and Anakin instead of going themselves.

I say if you have a style you created,you should test it and test it again and again until you are sure
that your style is capable of meeting and defeating any adversary or conflict.

Niman practioners died in the field of battle,Niman evens all the strengths of Shii cho,Soresu,Ataru,and Shien/Djem So. The Styles have to fit with your personality and you with their
philosophies. Vaapad's State of Mind is very different from the others' state of mind. Sure anybody can have a state of mind when they fight.

But can they use that state of mind as lethal as Vaapad? No..... why?


Shii cho,basics to Makashi and Soresu.their main goal is Sun djem,unarming an opponent
and fighting multiple opponents The Sources say(wookieepedia,Jedi Path, and any other source)
says Shii cho cannot defeat Makashi no way no how. Makashi takes it a step further.

Makashi is all Saber to Saber,no blaster deflecting no strength no acrobatics.
the curved light saber is its signature weapon built for dueling.

Djem So created from Makashi and Soresu with a lil touch of Shien. brute strength,domination,
saber to saber, reflecting blaster bolts, counter attack.The Sith went further by adding Dun Moch.

I can go on and on but the fact is when Sora Bulq turned Dark Jedi who did they send to kill him Quinlan Vos....why? because of his skill in Vaapad.
When Depa Billaba turned insane dark Jedi,who did they send?The founder of Vaapad.why?
BC He knew how to fight her without killing her.
Depa Billaba ,Mace Windu,and Sora Bulq are the most dangerous Jedi in the Galaxy.

Now Quinlan Vos......,even Mace told all the Masters to be cautious of Quin.They don't how much of Vaapad he has learned from Sora Bulq.

Juyo doesn't beat,any form automatically,.......no.To the Jedi,Juyo will always be incomplete....
Yes Vaapad completes Juyo,again(to the Jedi). Vaapad uses the Force in between strikes,blows,and
lightsaber combat,the difference is to KILL,.... in Shatter Point Depa reflected the blaster bolts at the clones and the Balawai militia for one purpose....to kill. Juyo's philosophy is to kill too.

Vaapad goes further in technique,skill,armed or unarmed. Not inherently better? no, The practationer always makes a style inherently better. It's the deadliest lightsaber style besides Juyo.

A Juyo practationer always focuses on the Physical atacks
A Vaapad practationer always focuses on the Physical and Mental attacks.

Try to summarize your points please juyomaster34. I can't make out what your trying to say.

Darth Power I was trying to answer some of the past threads on this forum.
What I'm trying to say is we haven't seen Vaapad in action.
Just barely in comic books,movies,and novels.

I'm wondering if we'll ever see it in CW.
In my opinion it's better, I was just saying that I respect everyones' opinions.
In my post I write some of the things I have studied

Things from different sources. I have been trying to solve the mysteries of Juyo and Vaapad
for a long time. I think I'm getting closer.

When people visit these forums I wanted to give them some hope to what they want to know.
Some don't know what we know about these things.
So I wanted to give them something to think about.
If I'm wrong on some things then we got you guys and myself to straighten things out.

Vaapad is not better than any other styles. "There is no best martial art".
Vaapad is Juyo that goes with specific state of mind. Practitioners of other styles also maintain various states of mind that suit them but they didn't feel need to give it a name like Windu.

Vaapad has to fit in with your personality,your state of mind.
Your inner darkness. Some one asked me a while back,does the Jedi Code guild Vaapad
to be a weapon of the light?

Rather than the I want to win or both...... yes
But which Code? The old Code or the new one?
Depends on the practationer.

Board Walker explained some of what I was trying to say.
He made some good points
You made some good points.

Does Vaapad feed on the dark side?
That answer remains to be seen.
Board Walker talked about this.

It uses both sides of the Force
my guess would be half light and half dark
Did Mace study the teachings and the history of both Revan and Darth Revan
to create Vaapad?

It takes the name of the animal.
Does it drain energy like the real vaapad does?

Board Walker touched on the hybrid part also.
Hey Board Walker if you're reading this it would be great if you could reply to this too.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vaapad is not better than any other styles. "There is no best martial art".
Vaapad is Juyo that goes with specific state of mind. Practitioners of other styles also maintain various states of mind that suit them but they didn't feel need to give it a name like Windu.


Hey Arhael,what's up. good point. Well its the practationer and what he or she adds to the style
to make it the best to them.I like the specific state of mind part. And the other part as well.

Let me ask you a question. In my replies did confuse you?
Or did I question your curiosity?
If I didn't that 's okay too. I'm just trying to make my replies better.

In each era when the lightsaber styles were created the Jedi had to adapt to certain situations.
The lightsaber styles themselves had to adapt as well.
Juyo was the last of them to adapt.

When Vaapad was created,it was suppose to be the finished Juyo.
In the Old Republic era Juyo is some what complete.
If there is knowledge of the complete Juyo it would probably be in the Great Holocron.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Hey Arhael,what's up. good point. Well its the practationer and what he or she adds to the style
to make it the best to them.I like the specific state of mind part. And the other part as well.

Let me ask you a question. In my replies did confuse you?
Or did I question your curiosity?
If I didn't that 's okay too. I'm just trying to make my replies better.

To be honest didn't read everything. From recently I have too much work and too little time to go through everything.

No, I didn't get confused as I answered question for myself already but you brought some good points, which made me to share my insight.

Yes, newer styles were invented to counter weaknesses of older style.
But it doesn't really make newer ones better. Any combatant on finding weaknesses in his style would find ways to get read of them, so even Form I practitioner can learn to defend against any advanced Forms.
Techniques come only from first two Forms: two-handed techniques from Form I and one-handed techniques from Form II. The rest of the Forms bring only philosophy without actual techniques.

As for state of mind as you said Vaapad has to fit personality. Windu would never be able to reach full potential as pure lightsider because of his "badass" personality. But with Vaapad he could utilize his darkness and just be himself, thus reach his full potential during combat. This style would be completely unsutable for someone like Kenobi, Yoda or Luke.

In a way Vaapad indeed is inherently better style during Old Republic. Because Jedi could not be themselves. Instead of drawing on positive emotions they were taught to have no emotions at all. Vaapad power comes from relishing fight - it is a positive emotion, something Windu felt good about. So Windu was one step ahead of everyone else as he could just be himself and draw on positive emotions the fight itself was giving him.

Only with Luke's New Order this weakness was eliminated as he lifted no attachments rule, so Jedi could have much more positive emotions to draw on.

Originally posted by Arhael
To be honest didn't read everything. From recently I have too much work and too little time to go through everything.

No, I didn't get confused as I answered question for myself already but you brought some good points, which made me to share my insight.

Yes, newer styles were invented to counter weaknesses of older style.
But it doesn't really make newer ones better. Any combatant on finding weaknesses in his style would find ways to get read of them, so even Form I practitioner can learn to defend against any advanced Forms.
Techniques come only from first two Forms: two-handed techniques from Form I and one-handed techniques from Form II. The rest of the Forms bring only philosophy without actual techniques.

As for state of mind as you said Vaapad has to fit personality. Windu would never be able to reach full potential as pure lightsider because of his "badass" personality. But with Vaapad he could utilize his darkness and just be himself, thus reach his full potential during combat. This style would be completely unsutable for someone like Kenobi, Yoda or Luke.

In a way Vaapad indeed is inherently better style during Old Republic. Because Jedi could not be themselves. Instead of drawing on positive emotions they were taught to have no emotions at all. Vaapad power comes from relishing fight - it is a positive emotion, something Windu felt good about. So Windu was one step ahead of everyone else as he could just be himself and draw on positive emotions the fight itself was giving him.

Only with Luke's New Order this weakness was eliminated as he lifted no attachments rule, so Jedi could have much more positive emotions to draw on.


Thanks you made a very good points,too I meant to say did I confuse you
you said I didn't so that's cool.


You mentioned the New Order,I agree with you on that.
But who in the New Order could adapt Vaapad to their time?
I think Kyle Katarn

You know your craft maybe we get the other guys in and share a little bit.
I know this a touchy topic but I'm trying to test a few theories before I debate else where
You and DarthPower have been a great help to me. Thank you guys!!!!

May the Force be with you

The way I understand Vaapad is that it allows Force user to use darkside without feeling guilty about it. When Anakin observed fight, he actually felt Windu succumbing to darkside: "There was no Jedi restraint. Mase Windu was cutting loose". And Anakin felt fury in both Windu and Sidious: "He could fee fury spray into the Force through some poisonous abscess in both their hearts".
However, in his mentality Windu is not using darkside but let it pass in and out. "The darkness had no power over him but neither did he have power over it". While Anakin feels his fury, in Windu's mentality he interprets it as reflecting power back to its source. So, while he uses his inner darkness, at the same time he maintains Jedi focus and taps into his full potential that way.

Don't think that Vaapad would suit Kyle Katarn despite his combat oriented attitude. While he had struggles with darkside a lot and was consumed by it during Dromund Kaas, he demonstrated that he can cast it off completely. In both games JK and JKII in final fights he completely let go of his anger. It demonstrates that he doesn't need Vaapad.

However, there are quite a few characters that practice similar things to Vaapad.
Jaina in Apocalypse was thriving on Chaos. She fought brutally like a Sith or assassin and was even getting pleasure from it.

Jacen in a way went beyond Vaapad. As Jedi he drew on all sorts of emotions. Empowered by pain, converted anger into electric judgement. Evan as Sith he did not just drew on anger and pain. He had attachment to his daughter, which was giving him even more determination. But still Vaapad wouldn't suit him, he didn't enjoy fights and was always thinking beyond that and he did go beyond everything by reaching deepest known unity with the Force.

Finally Saba Sebatyne. She is the best candidate for Vaapad as she does the same thing anyway. Fight for her is a hunt. She relishes it and genuinely feels happy. If opponent is very strong, it makes her feel even happier to fight worthy opponent. She is very strong and her fighting style is brutal according to her race. Even in terms of power and combat skill she is a powerhouse imho on par with Windu. They have a lot in common.

I understand Vaapad as giving yourself over to the thrill of battle, enjoying the fight(relish)
And the satisfaction of winning.

A Jedi MUST also ACCEPT and EMBRACE the FURY of the opponent.
This TRANSFORMS a Jedi into HAIF of a SUPERCONDUCTING LOOP,
the OTHER HALF being the POWER OF DARKNESS,which passes
IN and OUT of the Jedi WITHOUT touching him.

Vaapad is more than a fighting style it's a state of mind, a path that leads through
the penumbra of the darkside.

Juyo cuts close to Sith intensity of focus on physical combat
where Vaapad focuses both on Jedi and Sith intensity of focus on physical and mental
combat abilities.

including psychological warfare.
Example Depa Billaba.

It uses a deeper well of emotions.
Again, who says you can't use your pain or any of the examples you have given.
With Juyo you can feed off your own pain or any other emotion .
it's a Sith technique, Vaapad being created from Juyo shares the same abilities.

They may have been lost to SkyWalker and his Order but the Jedi that survived Order 66
and past SkyWalker's Order to legacy knew the 7 classical forms. Vaapad was not mentioned
because NOBODY had the ballls to write about it like Matthew Stover.

Why? because it's the most dangerous and the most deadliest of all styles.
inheretly better?no Just Best of the Best of what it can do.

Very Good points you gave,disagree I do....,about Kyle Katarn.
That's why I chose him as the perfect canadate.
If Sora were alive he would have picked the same person.

He might not need it he wouldn't be a true Battle Master without it .
He embraced both sides
He fell to the dark side (temperally )
Both trials he had to fight and control his own inner darkness.

what else oh yeah that Force choke and grip he likes using (to interrogate)

You mentioned Jaina,her Mandalorian training
I read some skipped the rest.
They didn't know Vaapad.
Jango was killed by Mace and Vaapad.

Jaina didn't know Vaapad or Juyo.
I'm very sure they knew Strong ,Medium, and Fast styles
Such stupid names for a lightsaber style.

With styles like them I'll personally learn from a Mandalorian. lol !!!
She had no inner darkness but she would have brought something new to Vaapad.

That era would of been perfect for Vaapad.
Dark Jedi ,Dark Side Adepts, Sith, and a hyped up pre suit to peak suit Vader.

Arhael, if you're reading this, then you will know honestly I agree with some of your views
on this thread. You have an ability to see past and through certain things,
You gave great replies and feed back on this topic
which still got me thinking.

I only disagree because Vaapad is more than what we both have said about it.
You gave a nice reply to why it's not used in the NJO.
But if you think about it, really think about it, It could have been.

You said something about the NJO have accepted emotions and being themselves,
then Djem So, Juyo, and Vaapad would have been perfect to test that theory.
I know Djem So is being used,but the adanced forms are not.

I read something about Juyo is being studied by them,
Since you know more about this era I wouldn't mind being a student
in your expertise on this era.

So what is the general consensus regarding Vaapad? I still believe vaapad is no greater than any other combat form, that each form is its own philosophy and way of life as well as a form of combat.

I also believe Vaapad and Juyo are two entirely different forms

Originally posted by Board Walker
So what is the general consensus regarding Vaapad? I still believe vaapad is no greater than any other combat form, that each form is its own philosophy and way of life as well as a form of combat.

I also believe Vaapad and Juyo are two entirely different forms

Calling one style innately superior to all the others ignores that each mode of combat has separate advantages and disadvantages; obviously, soresu is better than vaapad at deflecting blaster bolts, for example. Difference styles may also better suit different individuals.

That being said, vaapad, described as the "deadliest" form of dueling, has a rather haxxed powerset in its ability to draw on the enemy's own dark side energies, to the point where Mace Windu defeated Darth Sidious in a duel.

Vapaad is only useful to individuals who are inherently dark but are still attuned to the light. Since Mace is the only one who has proven he can handle vapaad without going to the dark side then obviously vapaad would be a terrible choice for people like Anakin.

So no it's not the best style for any Jedi. But for Mace? Yeah it's the best form of lightsaber combat and it ain't close.

How would anakin do using vaapad?

Also what is the differencr between vaapad and juyo?

If vaapad is best for inherent dark siders but attuned to the light, then is there a stance for inherent light siders that are attuned to the dark?

Good point,I disagree,Soresu is good at deflecting,but personally Shien
is better than Soresu at reflecting and deflecting.

Soresu is all defense,..you could only go so far with that,you won't win
with Soresu alone but hey what ever floats your boat...

Juyo and Vaapad are different...but using it only for dark siders,...
is like saying Juyo is only good against Organics...which is false...


To me,it was never meant for an average Jedi or an average master.
To me,it was meant for someone who is gray or have mastered both light and dark.

or someone who has mastered Juyo.
And I wouldn't say Soresu is better than Vaapad at deflecting blaster bolts when Shien is better at it then Soresu.

Shien and Vaapad wants the enemy dead,not given several attempts to try to kill you with deflecting bolts over their head or past their body and etc.

prolonging the gun battle,F...that...prolonging anything too long gets you killed.

Some Jedi survived the CW because of Soresu and Shien,Mace and Sora Bulq survived alone with Vaapad...

inherently better than any other saber style? yes when the fight gets
personal,and if it is just business,then you send the other stylists,oh that's right that's when they foolishly had a majority of the Niman specialist killed and the most casualties I might add why send

diplomats into the field of battle when their specialty is diplomacy...
And the time for peace talk had been long over...

If you are the best in that style,then that's saying a whole lot about you and that style whether its meant to battle dark siders or light siders.
Most of what I said is based on facts and my personal research into the mystery of Vaapad as well as Juyo...the other styles have their flaws as well as Vaapad and Juyo but when it comes to combat,personal or business or other wise..Form VII is the best form for the job.

Anakin would be terrible for both Juyo and Vaapad..
Djem So and Shien works great for him..good choice.

Of course,it's not the best form for a Jedi. Some would agree that Niman or Soresu is. That's what they have been taught to believe...

Its better than any other style,when the situation calls for it to be the best style...Clearly Niman was not the best style for the entire CW..
So that's saying alot right there.

Ok BW...you made a point Anakin wouldn't be terrible for Juyo
he would be great....
he mastered Djem So,he mastered Shien,....the next step is Juyo for him.
Juyo emphasises heavy Force use and heavy offense I can see Anakin weilding Juyo.
his HTH combat skills has to meet Juyo's physical onslaught in between saber strikes and physical
Force use.