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http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/LukeversusBane.jpg

Luke Skywalker (As seen in Star Wars: Jedi Outcast)

Darth Bane (As seen in Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil)


These two warriors come face-to-face, after they are whisked by time and space, to do battle in a distant place.
Luke and Bane start 10 Feet away from each other, standing on the ground floor of the Massassi Temple courtyard on Yavin 4.

Darth Bane wants to eradicate Luke - and Luke doesn't try to turn Bane back to the Light - making it clear this is a potential duel to the death on Luke's end.



Below are stats added for your consideration on who would logically win in this duel.

I was brutally observant, but to be fair I only added one thing about Bane that is noteworthy for this duel.

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/3150fcf3.jpg

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/DoEBaneVersusLuke.jpg
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/Eaw_Yavin4.jpghttp://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/MassassiTemplecopy.jpghttp://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/f9c209fb.jpg
Setting:Yavin IV, Massassi Temple, Ground-floor Courtyard.

Bane wins. But Luke's "loss" to Desann is pure PIS.

Correct. Luke has been known to hold back even at the risk of countless lives due to his fear of the dark side. That's not as much of a problem in his later years, but Jedi Outcast is not too far after Dark Empire.

Originally posted by ares834
Bane wins. But Luke's "loss" to Desann is pure PIS.

Maybe. But it was either Desann or Leia and her kids - and the Universe.

And we saw what happened when Vader threatened Leia.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Maybe. But it was either Desann or Leia and her kids - and the Universe.

And we saw what happened when Vader threatened Leia.

That's exactly the point. Luke was horrified at nearly killing Vader out of anger, because it was what Palpatine wanted.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
That's exactly the point. Luke was horrified at nearly killing Vader out of anger, because it was what Palpatine wanted.


But when Luke knew it was either Vader (the fallen Jedi) or Leia's life - he chose Leia.

That is the best OP ever.

Plus if you read both sections - good observations are pointed out.

DE Luke on par with Obi-Wan... lol

Originally posted by Battlemaster
But when Luke knew it was either Vader (the fallen Jedi) or Leia's life - he chose Leia.

...And regretted attacking out of anger afterwards.

Bane wins.

Also handwaving that fight by saying that Luke was holding back is something that isn't supported by anything at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That is the best OP ever.


Thank you very much. blushing

I love the complete lack of bias.

But seriously, kudos.

Originally posted by ares834
DE Luke on par with Obi-Wan... lol


He lasted a little bit longer than Kit Fisto would have - and Obi-wan was said to be a notch or two above Fisto in LoE.

Luke in a (non-BM enhanced) duel lasted ten or twenty seconds longer than Fisto - around how long Kenobi would have lasted before dying.

Yoda on the other hand carried a duel with Sidious for almost ten minutes - and won the swordsmanship area.


Luke is logistically on par with RotS Kenobi - not Yoda.

His dueling skills are realistically overestimated.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane wins.

Also handwaving that fight by saying that Luke was holding back is something that isn't supported by anything at all.

We have a range of sources from the Hand of Thrawn duology to the Unifying Force to the Dark Nest series to Legacy of the Force: Invincible in which Luke's reluctance to be overly aggressive in his duels for fear of falling to the dark side is explored. We see that he restrains himself against Lumiya during their first duels, avoids conflict with Caedus after nearly killing him aboard the Anakin Solo, and he discussed his hesitation to call upon such energies twice, I believe, with Jacen.

Or there's the idea that Desann and Kyle Katarn are each more skilled or powerful than Luke Skywalker.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
We have a range of sources from the Hand of Thrawn duology to the Unifying Force to the Dark Nest series to Legacy of the Force: Invincible in which Luke's reluctance to be overly aggressive in his duels for fear of falling to the dark side is explored. We see that he restrains himself against Lumiya during their first duels, avoids conflict with Caedus after nearly killing him aboard the Anakin Solo, and he discussed his hesitation to call upon such energies twice, I believe, with Jacen.

Or there's the idea that Desann and Kyle Katarn are each more skilled or powerful than Luke Skywalker.


To be fair - read the observations in the OP - Luke didn't try to turn Desann back in the fight - and when Desann got the Power of the Valley of the Jedi, he would be able to murder trillions of innocents - and turn Leia's children into Dark Jedi.


It was either Desann - or Luke's beloved family and the universe.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
We have a range of sources from the Hand of Thrawn duology to the Unifying Force to the Dark Nest series to Legacy of the Force: Invincible in which Luke's reluctance to be overly aggressive in his duels for fear of falling to the dark side is explored. We see that he restrains himself against Lumiya during their first duels, avoids conflict with Caedus after nearly killing him aboard the Anakin Solo, and he discussed his hesitation to call upon such energies twice, I believe, with Jacen.

Or there's the idea that Desann and Kyle Katarn are each more skilled or powerful than Luke Skywalker.

So basically a bunch of speculation and circumstantial evidence from unrelated matters? Cool, just as long as we're on the same page.

As I explained, Luke has been known to restrain himself or extend mercy to enemies who pose tremendous threats, including Caedus.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So basically a bunch of speculation and circumstantial evidence from unrelated matters? Cool, just as long as we're on the same page.

I didn't realize this signature had you so butthurt.

First, where is it said that the duel lasted only a few seconds? I hope you aren't talking about the number of panels they are notorious for not giving a fair time frame. Consider the Vader/Kenobi duel in RotS. In the movie it strechs on for a long time, but in the comic it's only a few pages.




Not really. He outdueled Palps at the end of DE. Sure, some may say Leia was using BM, however in the audio book the duel is from Leia's perspective and nothing hints at her using it.

Edit: Oh, and they were dueling so fast Leia could hardly see them.

Byss was an extraordinarily potent dark side nexus, which could very well explain Luke's defeat there and victory aboard the Eclipse in the absence of such a miasma of dark energy.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
As I explained, Luke has been known to restrain himself or extend mercy to enemies who pose tremendous threats, including Caedus.

Luke only restrained himself there because Ben snapped him out of it with his bloodlust and Luke got cold feet.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
I didn't realize this signature had you so butthurt.

Don't expect Nice Nephthys when we debate. Belittling my opponent and their argument is a tried and true tactic!

Originally posted by ares834
First, where is it said that the duel lasted only a few seconds? I hope you aren't talking about the number of panels they are notorious for not giving a fair time frame. Consider the Vader/Kenobi duel in RotS. In the movie it strechs on for a long time, but in the comic it's only a few pages.
Not really. He outdueled Palps at the end of DE. Sure, some may say Leia was using BM, however in the audio book the duel is from Leia's perspective and nothing hints at her using it.
Edit: Oh, and they were dueling so fast Leia could hardly see them.


Read the Stats in the OP - it has the answers.

And?
Luke lost control and snapped out of it, preferring to let Caedus escape and threaten lives on a galactic scale with his madness. Not terribly heroic, but such is his fear.



My argument is extremely well founded and more reasonable than the idea of Desann and Kyle Katarn, neophytes in the Jedi arts, being superior combatants to someone whose natural Force talents exceed theirs and who has trained far longer. Besides, the whole "speculation and circumstantial evidence" line can be such a double edged sword, can't it? 313

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
And?
Luke lost control and snapped out of it, preferring to let Caedus escape and threaten lives on a galactic scale with his madness. Not terribly heroic, but such is his fear.



With all due respect - if Desann had gained the power of the Valley of the Jedi - he would have become invincable.

That would mean the certain destruction of the galaxy and the Dark side taking over everything.

All those things go more directly against what Luke believes - and they threaten the family he loves so much.

He didn't try to turn back Desann during the duel either.

He literally had no reason to not kill, or at least mercifully knock out Desann, if it were within his abilities.

Well if we are going to low ball and not take into consideration other factors...

DoE Bane was defeated by a few mercenaries and an untrained force-sensative.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Read the Stats in the OP - it has the answers.

I've argued against both the panel=seconds and Leia boosting Luke. You're move.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
With all due respect - if Desann had gained the power of the Valley of the Jedi - he would have become invincable.

That would mean the certain destruction of the galaxy and the Dark side taking over everything.

All those things go more directly against what Luke believes - and they threaten the family he loves so much.

He didn't try to turn back Desann during the duel either.

He literally had no reason to not kill, or at least mercifully knock out Desann, if it were within his abilities.

Caedus tortured Luke's son, murdered his wife, and threatened to kill Jedi children and still Luke let him walk. I'm not defending the rationality of Luke's decision, I'm explaining to you that his stubborn habit of extending mercy and eschewing aggression since his tenure as the Emperor's apprentice is something that has transcended multiple books and authors across decades of in-universe time.

Likewise, with all due respect, there is no reason to believe that Desann or Kyle are superior combatants to Luke when they lack his power and training.

Luke has a history of getting his ass kicked by relative weaklings. But more tommorrow.

Welp, night.

Then he and Nihilus finally have something in common.

Good night.

..... The Exile used to be cool dammit. hoss

Tell that to Karpyshyn.

I'll write it on the brick I smash his teeth out with.

He's a big guy, he can so take you.

I may be small, but I'm mad as heck and greased up real good!

Just where exactly are you greased up? mmm

My neck.

My greasy turkey neck.

Why aren't you in bed yet?

I really don't know. Boredom? I guess I'll go do that then.




.......... yeah......................

I'll join you ASAP.

Luke.
Learned his lesson in fights with Palpatine.
No Master and Padawan relationship, therefore no restraint.
Bane is without Obralisk.
Battlemaster, try harder.

By the way. In actual fight with Jacen Luke went all out on him. He recklessly tried to make instant kill. Only after Jacen was knifed on the floor, Luke refrained from killing him for fear of son learning bad example.

Meh. I think Bane takes it, but not because he is so "superior in every way because Luke sux" but because he will end up hitting Luke a bit harder. Luke has a tendency to block and get into a contest of strength, even if its Force enhanced (where his is no slouch) but Bane just has him beat. I think its safe to say, with Force-steroids, Bane is one of the strongest humans to ever live. It can be argued, and there really isn't any point in saying it since its speculation, but its just a neat little concept to me.

Originally posted by ares834
Well if we are going to low ball and not take into consideration other factors...


This isn't low-balling - this was Luke's Boss battle with Palpatine, and he lost.

Later, when Anakin and Leia joined their energy to him, through BM he was able to win - before, he got taken out, in a short amount of time.

And when Luke fought Desann the Boss of the game he also lost against that Boss.

So this isn't low-balling - these are Luke's showings against Bosses.




Originally posted by ares834

DoE Bane was defeated by a few mercenaries and an untrained force-sensative.



Gee, was this before or after Bane was dying?





Originally posted by ares834

I've argued against the panel=seconds



I'm sure Palpatine's fast enough to swing a lightsaber around in a few movements that wouldn't require minutes to physically accomplish in the panels displayed in the story.




Originally posted by ares834

and Leia boosting Luke.



This was proven by the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and also the comic, I believe - and also by some of the greatest Debators here.

Hell, even Darth Power will admit it.




Originally posted by ares834

You're move.


I'm move? No, I'm Battlemaster.

As you said, Desann was the boss fight of the game. Therefore, if Luke killed him before the end, you wouldn't have a boss fight. Luke could have killed Desann, but PIS stated otherwise.


Jerec was not that powerful after absorbing the power in the Valley, that is obviously an exaggeration. Kyle did as well, he couldn't do as such.

BM was never proved to be used by Leia. Its up to your interpretation.


Bane was fine when he was taken down, but the Huntress unconciously interferes with connecting to the Force. She makes it hard to use.



Bosses don't actually exist in Star Wars you know, just video games. Luke has had to have low showings, because otherwise everything would be over in a minute.

No, he's calling it low-balling because you've taken a single example and isolated it from context and circumstance. I'll say it again: Luke is stronger in the Force than either Desann or Kyle and has trained in the Jedi arts for substantially longer than both of them combined. I'm not interested in that kind of argument. I provided a well sourced and well reasoned explanation for why Luke was briefly overcome by Desann and not only do you ignore it, but when I remind you that Luke has natural strength and training on his side, you ignore that as well.

It's clear from the opening post that your conclusion is inflexible and that this discussion will be nothing but a perpetual circle. I'll pass.

I still say Bane wins. I just refuse to give in to the rampant faboy-ism that permeates the very air on these boards nowadays, so I point out some things for Luke.

Sorry, I was speaking to Battlemaster but was too lazy to quote him.

Ah. I forgive you. This time glare

Originally posted by Battlemaster
This isn't low-balling - this was Luke's Boss battle with Palpatine, and he lost.

It's low-balling. Taking a single duel while removing it from context and claiming it is how powerful Luke is is low-balling.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Gee, was this before or after Bane was dying?

No. Bane was very much alive at the time.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'm sure Palpatine's fast enough to swing a lightsaber around in a few movements that wouldn't require minutes to physically accomplish in the panels displayed in the story.

Except, panels don't have to show every single attack. As pointed out when they fought it was on Byss which is a powerful dark side nexus.

From the radio drama, "Did you think you could conquer me by coming here to this. To the very heart of the dark side."

Originally posted by Battlemaster
This was proven by the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and also the comic, I believe - and also by some of the greatest Debators here.

Hell, even Darth Power will admit it.

If it was proven in the Dark Empire Sourcebook lets see the quote.

In the drama however it's clear that Leia didn't meld with Luke until after Luke defeats Palpatine.

Here is what she says afterwards, "But we can Luke. We can do it. That's what the holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours."

Originally posted by Pwned
As you said, Desann was the boss fight of the game. Therefore, if Luke killed him before the end, you wouldn't have a boss fight. Luke could have killed Desann, but PIS stated otherwise.


No, Luke didn't kill Desann because he couldn't. Desann's gaining the power of the Valley would spell certain doom for the universe. He could at least knocked Desann out - and he couldn't even manage that. He lost fair and square.




Originally posted by Pwned
Jerec was not that powerful after absorbing the power in the Valley, that is obviously an exaggeration. Kyle did as well, he couldn't do as such.



Kyle used a method to curtail Jerec's connection to the Valley - while Jerec was still absorbing it.
Had Kyle not done this and had Jerec finished absorbing all the power, then Qu Rahn's warning would have come to fruition.





Originally posted by Pwned

BM was never proved to be used by Leia. Its up to your interpretation.

Wrong.Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's cited in Empire's End that she used BM (Battle Meditation) . - coming from this guy, who formerly raged just as hard against the assertion, as you are now.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
No, he's calling it low-balling because you've taken a single example and isolated it from context and circumstance. I'll say it again: Luke is stronger in the Force than either Desann or Kyle and has trained in the Jedi arts for substantially longer than both of them combined. I'm not interested in that kind of argument. I provided a well sourced and well reasoned explanation for why Luke was briefly overcome by Desann and not only do you ignore it, but when I remind you that Luke has natural strength and training on his side, you ignore that as well.

It's clear from the opening post that your conclusion is inflexible and that this discussion will be nothing but a perpetual circle. I'll pass.


If Desann gets the Valley's power, the universe is gone, period.

Luke knows that; Kyle knows that.

Sparing Desann's life means dooming the Universe - it's that simple.

Luke wouldn't value Desann over Leia, or Anakin or Jacen or Jaina.

He lost.

Originally posted by ares834
It's low-balling. Taking a single duel while removing it from context and claiming it is how powerful Luke is is low-balling.



Luke lost against two Bosses who were going to kill innocent people - especially Desann.





Originally posted by ares834

No. Bane was very much alive at the time.




And not dying?





Originally posted by ares834

Except, panels don't have to show every single attack.



Get me some proof that there was more to that fight than what was in those panels, and then you'll have something.




Originally posted by ares834

In the drama however it's clear that Leia didn't meld with Luke until after Luke defeats Palpatine.

Here is what she says afterwards, "But we can Luke. We can do it. That's what the holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours."


LOL. You're hilarious.

Why would Leia meld with Luke after his duel with Palpatine?

A victory mind-****?

Seriously, if you're going to bother casting your two cents into the pot - make sure they aren't counterfeit.

You use BM during fights - and if she hadn't used BM, then Luke would be dead.

So make sure your arguments make sense.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Get me some proof that there was more to that fight than what was in those panels, and then you'll have something.

I'm not saying that it was longer. Only that is potentionally longer... There is no way of knowing.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
LOL. You're hilarious.

Why would Leia meld with Luke after his duel with Palpatine?

A victory mind-****?

Seriously, if you're going to bother casting your two cents into the pot - make sure they aren't counterfeit.

You use BM during fights - and if she hadn't used BM, then Luke would be dead.

So make sure your arguments make sense.

So now it's clear you didn't even read Dark Empire.

If you had you would know that after Luke defeated Palpatine in their duel, Palpatine summoned a force storm to destroy the Rebels.

Well, I'm done here.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not saying that it was longer. Only that is potentionally longer... There is no way of knowing.



That's bull.





Originally posted by ares834

So now it's clear you didn't even read Dark Empire.
If you had you would know that after Luke defeated Palpatine in their duel, Palpatine summoned a force storm to destroy the Rebels.

Well, I'm done here.



I know well enough to know Leia did indeed use Battle Meditation in the duel to help defeat Palpatine, as my good friend DARTH POWER pointed out.

Now go sulk.

No, she didn't. Leia is not even capable of using BM as far as I know, because not only would that be her ONLY showing of it, but her talents lie along the lines of diplomacy and negotiation.

I honestly don't think you know what your talking about half the time here.


Luke could beat Desann, no problem. But Kyle absorbed the power of the Valley, and he was nowehere near that powerful. Seriously, that is an exaggeration. Also, I want to see the quote where it says that Leia used BM from DE. If there is no such quote specifically lining out BM, then thats BS. Your own logic.


Yes, Bane lost while he was perfectly fine. He wasn't even tired. And yet the Huntress, while yes, she was inhibiting his connection, it was not terrible. I jsut reread the scene, "Four soldiers armed with stun rifles sent a barrage of bolts raining down from the balcony;Bane--Still reeling from the sonic detonators--barely had enough time to throw up a protective barrier to shield him from the assault. As he did so, he felt something fighting him. Some power was trying to block his ability to call upon the Force to shield himself. It wasn't strong enough to stop him, but it did hinder his efforts just enough so that a flicker of energy passed through the barrier." Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil, page 169.

As obvious, while Bane was not at PEAK condition due to slight interference (he had 4 bars instead of 5 for his Force connection) he was still taken down by some mercs. Luke, however, has only failed in the interest of Plot. Saying Luke could not beat Desann due to weakness, but then Kyle can go and beat a powered up Desann, is just plain ignorance.

Originally posted by Pwned
No, she didn't. Leia is not even capable of using BM as far as I know, because not only would that be her ONLY showing of it, but her talents lie along the lines of diplomacy and negotiation.
I honestly don't think you know what your talking about half the time here.




So, are you calling DARTH POWER a liar, or are you admitting that you're mentally-retarded?


DARTH POWER made all the same arguments you did, and then went and looked through the Dark Empire series, before he finally came back and informed me that it was indeed cited that Leia used Battle Meditation.

And this guy had argued with me for three or four Threads, saying that Leia didn't know BM, and then went and saw she did and re-nigged.

DARTH POWER knows she uses Battle Meditation, and so do a bunch of other knowledgeable Debators here.

That means you're the one with the learning disability, Sonny.





Originally posted by Pwned

Luke could beat Desann, no problem.



Which is why he did, right?





Originally posted by Pwned

But Kyle absorbed the power of the Valley, and he was nowehere near that powerful.




You're an idiot. When Kyle traveled to the Valley of the Jedi, he sought out a small piece of residual energy and stepped into it - only to regain his connection to the Force.

Kyle isn't the type of person to want to claim the power of the Valley for himself anyway.

Then Desann tracked the Valley down and planned to harness all the power of the Valley for his own ends.





Originally posted by Pwned

Seriously, that is an exaggeration.



I don't think Rahn risked his life to keep the location of the Valley from Jerec if it weren't as every bit dangerous as he said it was.

Have you even played Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II? Qu Rahn specifically states the Universal Cosmic power that an individual would gain from fully-absorbing the power of the Valley.






Originally posted by Pwned

Also, I want to see the quote where it says that Leia used BM from DE. If there is no such quote specifically lining out BM, then thats BS. Your own logic.




I'll have to ask the formerly-biggest Leia-BM Denier for that information. He's the one who found it outlined in Empire's End.

In the meantime, you might want to read some Star Wars books and watch the movies; familiarize yourself with the Star Wars Universe. You might like it.






Originally posted by Pwned

Yes, Bane lost while he was perfectly fine. He wasn't even tired. And yet the Huntress, while yes, she was inhibiting his connection, it was not terrible. I jsut reread the scene, "Four soldiers armed with stun rifles sent a barrage of bolts raining down from the balcony;Bane--Still reeling from the sonic detonators--barely had enough time to throw up a protective barrier to shield him from the assault. As he did so, he felt something fighting him. Some power was trying to block his ability to call upon the Force to shield himself. It wasn't strong enough to stop him, but it did hinder his efforts just enough so that a flicker of energy passed through the barrier." Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil, page 169.

As obvious, while Bane was not at PEAK condition due to slight interference (he had 4 bars instead of 5 for his Force connection) he was still taken down by some mercs. Luke, however, has only failed in the interest of Plot. Saying Luke could not beat Desann due to weakness, but then Kyle can go and beat a powered up Desann, is just plain ignorance.



Wait, so Bane had his connection to the Force attacked?

Okay, and when did that happen when Luke was fighting the 1 Year student?

Never.

Luke had a full connection to the Force and perfectly healthy at the time. And got his ass kicked.



Originally posted by Pwned

Saying Luke could not beat Desann due to weakness, but then Kyle can go and beat a powered up Desann, is just plain ignorance.


Actually, that's more like proof that Kyle was more powerful than Luke.

Desann fully-absorbing the Valley = Death Sentence for the Universe and Luke couldn't stop Desann from going there, and didn't even want to fight him once he got to the Valley.

Kyle managed to catch up to Desann before he had absorbed all the power and saved the Universe.

The only defense you have is "Plot said otherwise! LUL!"? Seriously? Thats how your saying it.



Oh, and unless you get me the panel where Leia uses BM during Luke's fight with Sidious, then you are just saying the same thing, no matter that you have no basis of support. I don't care who said what, I want to see the proof (as my copy of DE was long ago lost. Moving :/ )


It was attacked to a bare minimum. And again, Plot said Luke can't kill him there. Otherwise Desann would have died pretty early. Plus, Luke isn't the sort of guy to go "I am so powerful, I can take anybody down." No, he doesn't think he can take Desann down when he could. Its a no brainer. I will look up the time frame for JKO, I am not quite sure on the year.



So, didn't want to read it? Get me hard proof, not one one person says. Desann had access to the Valley, he walked into it. So whatever you say, he didn't claim the power. Seriously, at least look up the material you are "debating" Your debate hinges on "Luke "lost" one fight fair and square so he can never win"
I have no clue why you are so biased against Luke. Besides, I already said Bane wins.

Or go read some Star Wars. You mayenjoy it.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

I guess you'll be disagreeing with Canon, an ex-Leia BM Naysayer (DARTH POWER) and some of the best Debators in this forum.

Argumentum ad populum/argumentum ad verecundiam doesn't work; nobody gives two shits about who has argued your point before. And since democracy isn't a truthmaking institution, having numbers on your side is largely irrelevant.



More to the point, this is like watching dorky fourth graders attempt to trash talk. If you had stuck to simple name-calling, I'd have winced at some inappropriate usage of the "r-word" and then moved on. But really, "move on to something that requires less mental strength" isn't exactly comedy-roast level witticism. Go ahead and take a breather because it's becoming embarrassing. Better luck next time, champ.

Too many smilies.

It's because he ain't even mad, bro!

Showing that you aren't taking your opponent seriously is serious business. The more smilies he uses, the less butthurt he is!

Nitpicking from the sidelines is kind of my thing.

Faster and easier than falling asleepgetting in a real debate.

Originally posted by Pwned
The only defense you have is "Plot said otherwise! LUL!"? Seriously? Thats how your saying it.



At least I can say things without a waterfall of drool cascading down my face.





Originally posted by Pwned

Oh, and unless you get me the panel where Leia uses BM during Luke's fight with Sidious, then you are just saying the same thing, no matter that you have no basis of support. I don't care who said what, I want to see the proof (as my copy of DE was long ago lost. Moving :/ )



Again, I'll ask your Predecessor, when I see him.





Originally posted by Pwned

It was attacked to a bare minimum.



That's still more than Luke's connection was attacked.




Originally posted by Pwned

And again, Plot said Luke can't kill him there. Otherwise Desann would have died pretty early. Plus, Luke isn't the sort of guy to go "I am so powerful, I can take anybody down." No, he doesn't think he can take Desann down when he could. Its a no brainer.



Irrelevant.

Luke's ego doesn't come into this - about the Universe; this is about an evil Dark Jedi whose goal is to harness all of the power of the Valley and could kill trillions very quickly.

If Luke knocks him out and keeps him from the Valley - the galaxy can survive.

If Luke can't defeat him, even in a non-lethal way, then Desann has the potential to get the Valley's power - and then it becomes a job for someone who can defeat him.




Originally posted by Pwned

I will look up the time frame for JKO, I am not quite sure on the year.




12 ABY.







Originally posted by Pwned

So, didn't want to read it?

Ironically, I had a copy some time ago - a copy I lifted from someone's house while they were moving.

Sadly, that copy was eaten by my dog.

So I've no copy to read, currently.





Originally posted by Pwned

Get me hard proof, not one one person says.



Hey, are you calling DARTH POWER a liar?





Originally posted by Pwned

Desann had access to the Valley, he walked into it. So whatever you say, he didn't claim the power. Seriously, at least look up the material you are "debating"




I have, Dumbass. Why don't you?

Jerec had been in the proccess of absorbing all the power of the Valley, when he was cut from it and killed.

Like Jerec, Desasnn still needed a small window of time to capture all the power - and Kyle managed to catch up to him in the nick of time.





Originally posted by Pwned

Your debate hinges on "Luke "lost" one fight fair and square so he can never win"
I have no clue why you are so biased against Luke. Besides, I already said Bane wins.



Luke is essentially a Gary Stu now, and all his fights before the NJO books were won out of luck.

Before NJO, and even during the first couple books, Luke still sucked.




Originally posted by Pwned

Or go read some Star Wars. You mayenjoy it.


You should go read some books on proper writing - that way your sentences don't run onto each other.

And yes, you may enjoy Star Wars - it seems like a fresh and very new breathtaking Universe for you - have you watched the movies, yet?

Hey guys, wasn't it weird when DS had his posts erased?

Was that him who was creating all the accounts today?

I have no idea, I'm a completely new member and have no idea who Beefythis DS guy is so I don't know but it sure sounds like him.

*Sigh* I say one thing and get dragged into a "debate" about how powerful Luke is.....



Battlemaster, he had time to infuse at least 50 people with the power of the Valley. He had time in order to claim it all for himself, but he did not. Tell me, what would be the point of the experiments Hethrir was having him do if he could claim the pwoer your saying he could?


And at this point, your just name calling. Seriously, you don't refute a single point without just saying the same thing you have been. I am growing bored of attempting to show you why your wrong, and will therefore throw my hands above my head and yell, "DONE!" out of boredom. Just go read the other peoples post and you will see why you lost.

Originally posted by Pwned
*Sigh* I say one thing and get dragged into a "debate" about how powerful Luke is.....
Battlemaster, he had time to infuse at least 50 people with the power of the Valley. He had time in order to claim it all for himself, but he did not. Tell me, what would be the point of the experiments Hethrir was having him do if he could claim the pwoer your saying he could?
And at this point, your just name calling. Seriously, you don't refute a single point without just saying the same thing you have been. I am growing bored of attempting to show you why your wrong, and will therefore throw my hands above my head and yell, "DONE!" out of boredom. Just go read the other peoples post and you will see why you lost.


Why do I get the feeling, when you threw your hands in the air and yelled, "DONE!", it sounded like, "DAWWRWWRRNNN..!"


Down Syndrome's a b*tch, I guess.


But seriously, there's a reason Rahn warned Kyle about the Valley and it's power - play Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II - you'll see what I mean.

Also, gaining the full power of the Valley takes time, and there is a particular location needed to access it.

And Hethrir was also obsessed with making sure a second Imperium would come about, and wasn't all-knowing about the Force, hence his need for research, and he likely didn't understand the scope of the Valley's power as the Jedi Master Qu Rahn, had.

The Valley is dangerous. Accessing it's full power in the way Rahn described leads to a being becoming invincible and having the ability to terminate star systems in a whisper.

Luke's fight with Desann was a sort of point of no-return for him - and he was lucky that Kyle had the skill and ability to defeat Desann and caught up to him before his plans were complete.


(Yavin 4 Academy, After Desann's Defeat)

(A throng of students gathers at the landing-platform. Kyle claps a hand on Luke's shoulder)


Luke: "Kyle, I can't thank you enough for your help. The New Republic owes you a debt of gratitude."


Kyle: "Luke, I was happy to help - and hey, Desann's just lucky he didn't have to fight you at the end, I mean, you could have taken him back at the hangar bay, right?"


Luke: (Awkward silence; dozens of eager young students look at Luke with bright gazes)

"....I....yessssss.."


(Everyone shares a hearty laugh)

End.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I get the feeling that Ush is extra special pissed at him. Not that I can blame him considering the smack talk DS was bringing.


I must have totally missed all that. I know DS can be rough around the edges, but I can't remember the last time he pissed somebody off that badly.

He literally asked to be banned and then taunted Ush when he returned as a sock iirc.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He literally asked to be banned and then taunted Ush when he returned as a sock iirc.


That's weird.

Nice bagging on peopel with mental disabilities, though no, I do not have one. But seriously, thats just not cool.



Also, a force push then collapsing rubble on somebody does not equal "I am more powerful!" It equals what Dooku pulled at the end of AOTC

I can tell you don't like me. So why don't you go scamper off and plot how to stop acting like a second grader with a vocabulary?

Originally posted by Pwned
Nice bagging on peopel with mental disabilities, though no, I do not have one. But seriously, thats just not cool.


That doesn't help your case much.



Originally posted by Pwned

Also, a force push then collapsing rubble on somebody does not equal "I am more powerful!" It equals what Dooku pulled at the end of AOTC



Yeah, I watched it again - Luke actually grunted from the sheer pressure of Desann overpowering his TK (or because Luke was too slow to be able to ground the energy) and then Desann simply tossed his saber - done.

Too bad Luke wasn't able to quickly lift the debris off to carry on the fight. My guess is either he couldn't, or wouldn't.

Ah well, good thing Kyle was close by.

He saved the Universe that day.



Originally posted by Pwned

I can tell you don't like me.



I like you just fine and I'll be gentle in the future. kisses



Originally posted by Pwned

So why don't you go scamper off and plot how to stop acting like a second grader with a vocabulary?


- and if you promise to go scamper off and plot on how to come up with better comebacks, I'll conisder it.

protip: typos aren't great openings to burn your opponent.

Fail. He did absorb that power as well as countless other Dark Jedi. The very reason he provoked Kyle is to track down location of valley. Also, your saying that Jarec did not fully benefit from Valley is just a baseless assumption.

And at which point Desann overpowered, overwhelmed or outskilled Luke? All we see is very short duel followed by Desann running away. In fact the duel does not give much details to draw a debate breaking conclusion. But considering that your speculation is based on incorrect information due to lack of knowledge of the game plot, it is especially laughable. In any case this duel happened after Desann discovered and took full advantage of the Valley and he still ran away.


Kyle was inside star destroyer behind thick transparestill, conteplating fight and not trying to run for help. Stop making stuff up.


Ones again I point at your lack of knowledge. Kyle killed Desann in underground of Jedi academy at Yavin IV next to a random Force nexus, while the Valley is located on Ruusan. In other word everything you said about Desann is bullshit.


You should try better, than taking someone's words out of context as not only it does not qualify as evidence but also twists the original meaning. And DP won't admit that BM was used in lightsaber combat.

Also, battle meditation is boosting morals and fightning spirit on first place. It DOES NOT transfer Force energy as you are trying to claim. It's all about emotional support. Actual examples of Force empowering like Caedus empowering his mother during Falcon crush landing or Luke - Jaina during first fight with Caedus are not considered BM, nor described as.


There is no such thing as skilled and greatest debators. It's all about people supporting their opinions with selected facts, some of them unfortunately are not as adequate as others. Those, who support your views you call greatest debators and quote their posts with "exactly" and "good point" (in short: ass licking), while to the rest show complete
disrespect and unaceptable rudness. Also, you showed to DP as much disrespect as to others during debate. What escapes your brain is that people come here to discuss common interest, not to offense and belittle others.

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/504d53a2.jpg

You actually just reinforced his last point there.

She, also, reinforced that she's got fetish for horses.

Originally posted by Arhael
She, also, reinforced that she's got a fetish for horses.

Fixed.

If you two start kissing each other, I can make a 'Tard porno.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Fixed.

If you two start kissing each other, I can make a 'Tard porno.
English is my second language. Problem?

No, thank you, not interested in your porno business. But you can still imagine us, if that's sort of thing you like.

Originally posted by Arhael
English is my second language. Problem?

No, thank you, not interested in your porno business. But you can still imagine us, if that's sort of thing you like.



You're Hindi, I'm guessing?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
You're Hindi, I'm guessing?
And you try to teach me grammar. Hindi is a language used in India but they are called Indian. Nevermind, keep guessing.

Originally posted by Arhael
And you try to teach me grammar. Hindi is a language used in India but they are called Indian. Nevermind, keep guessing.


"Hindi" is also an off the cuff term refering to a northern Indian, Genius.

I have a few good friends who are Hindi.


I'll just accept the fact that you're mentally-disabled instead, though.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
"Hindi" is also an off the cuff term refering to a northern Indian, Genius.

I have a few good friends who are Hindi.


I'll just accept the fact that you're mentally-disabled instead, though.
So, if someone is mentally-disabled, they must be Hindi? Wondering what your good friends would think of you after reading it, since someone you don't like you assume to be Hindi.

Come on guys stop. Lets get back tot he debate, theres no need to insult eachother.

Originally posted by Arhael
So, if someone is mentally-disabled, they must be Hindi? Wondering what your good friends would think of you after reading it, since someone you don't like you assume to be Hindi.


I was giving you the benefit of the doubt; that your displays of mental-ineptitude were due to a language-barrier.

But I see that's not the case.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt; that your displays of mental-ineptitude were due to a language-barrier.

But I see that's not the case.
My displays? You are the only one here giving arguments based on incorrect assumptions and covering your inability to answer back regarding the actual matter by fixing grammatical errors and throwing insults and racist attacks. You need to make accurate assessment of your own mentality before giving diagnoses to others.

Originally posted by Arhael
My displays? You are the only one here giving arguments based on incorrect assumptions and covering your inability to answer back regarding the actual matter by fixing grammatical errors and throwing insults and racist attacks. You need to make accurate assessment of your own mentality before giving diagnoses to others.


I'm as insane, as you are stupid.

Which is to say, plenty.

Now go play with your toys.

(And remember to pick them up when you're done)

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'm as insane, as you are stupid.

Which is to say, plenty.

Now go play with your toys.

(And remember to pick them up when you're done)
If those, who point out that your arguments in the threat are based on incorrect assumptions and point at your rudeness and offensive behavior, are stupid, then you are indeed insane.

Ok folks, move it on.