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Must be below Trans.

Who do you guys think it is?

My candidates: Maxima, Sersi, Wonder Woman, Zatanna, Super Girl, etc.

Feel free to pick your own choice, as those are off of the top of my head.

I tend to think it's either Maxima or Sersi.

The awnser is obviously Storm

How about Suprema, what tier is she at?

Binary may deserve a nomination.

Jenny Quantum .

Scarlett Witch.

Originally posted by cdtm
Scarlett Witch.

OP said BELOW trans. Unless you mean Classic Wanda... who wouldn't be anywhere at the top anyways.

I also agree with Binary. Rachel Grey also deserves a nod, even though despite all that power she's still quite inept in using it optimally. Also Hope, depending on who she's copying.

One of the most potentially powerful would be the Engineer.

Snowbird is among the most dangerous of her tier.

Jean, or is she too high

zatanna

Below Trans? Yeah, OP has most of the best options.

I wish that Marvel kept Terraxia (Female Thanos clone). She could have been great. My vote goes to Rachel Summers. <--- She isn't trans level is she?

The problem with 'most powerful below trans,' is the question is really one of 'where do you draw the trans line?'.

Originally posted by Q99
The problem with 'most powerful below trans,' is the question is really one of 'where do you draw the trans line?'.


I think that the Trans line begins, when one character can defeat a team of mid to high heralds with some but not a lot of trouble.

Originally posted by Q99
The problem with 'most powerful below trans,' is the question is really one of 'where do you draw the trans line?'.

Originally it was literally "Above Surfer and below Odin." Surfer being the consensus top of High Herald and Odin being the representative Skyfather, which is the next tier. It's one of the more easily defined tiers on KMC. More colloquially, it often refers to "team-wreckers" but that is a much more subjective distinction.

Originally posted by Digi
Originally it was literally "Above Surfer and below Odin." Surfer being the consensus top of High Herald and Odin being the representative Skyfather, which is the next tier. It's one of the more easily defined tiers on KMC. More colloquially, it often refers to "team-wreckers" but that is a much more subjective distinction.

I definitely wouldn't be among the consensus that says that SS is the top of High Heralds. I'd easily take Superman or Thor over him....Thor less so, but Superman for sure.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I definitely wouldn't be among the consensus that says that SS is the top of High Heralds. I'd easily take Superman or Thor over him....Thor less so, but Superman for sure.

I could see Thor over surfer sure, but why superman? Both are far more versatile than him.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
I could see Thor over surfer sure, but why superman? Both are far more versatile than him.

Superman has a vast strength advantage and durability advantage over both (i.e. surviving an explosion equal to 52 SUPERnovas, whereas Thor has been shown to be able to be killed by 1 NOVA). The SS is well known has having one of the worst glass jaws amongst high end heralds. (and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's not a high end herald). Superman's combat speed is also well beyond either character, and Superman has defenses against both magic and energy draining, despite the common misconception here, and many board. But this is not a debate for this thread, if you'd like me to explain my case more, you can make a different thread or PM me, as I don't want to derail this one.

Talisman and Snowbird.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I definitely wouldn't be among the consensus that says that SS is the top of High Heralds. I'd easily take Superman or Thor over him....Thor less so, but Superman for sure.

There's plenty of people that consider Thor an equal or near-equal, myself among them. This isn't the thread for that though. And I only mentioned it to clarify the tiers. The tiers thread was closed, is not an official source for power levels, and hasn't been around for a couple years.

Jenny Quantum, Hope Summers or Scarlett Witch..
Susan Richards is also very powerful even though she doesn't often get enough credit. Her powers originate from Hyperspace, the home of the Celestials, and she once shattered Exitar's containment suit/armor.

Originally posted by Doon
Jenny Quantum, Hope Summers or Scarlett Witch..
Susan Richards is also very powerful even though she doesn't often get enough credit. Her powers originate from Hyperspace, the home of the Celestials, and she once shattered Exitar's containment suit/armor.

Jenny Quantum : Most definitely deserves the title .

Hope Summers : Far too much hyperbole , very few feats . No surprise there , since she's got "teh phoenix connection" .

Scarlet Witch : Never really was that powerful . Her uber HOM feats came from the Life-Force amp .

Sue Richards : Apart from being the Celestials' kryptonite , hasn't done anything of significance that would put her even high-herald tier .

Thanos is just under trans.

Originally posted by Bentley
Thanos is just under trans.

That would make him high herald. Thanos is easily beyond that.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Sue Richards : Apart from being the Celestials' kryptonite , hasn't done anything of significance that would put her even high-herald tier .

Did KO the Hulk once.

(To paraphrase Exiles, "She brags about it so much I'm surprised it's not on her business cards!"

jenny quantum gets my vote, but i think she is above top tier, even in the dcnu. shes doing insane things in stormwatch.

Originally posted by Bentley
Thanos is just under trans.

Thanos is basically the definition of Trans

Originally posted by Prep-Man
jenny quantum gets my vote, but i think she is above top tier, even in the dcnu. shes doing insane things in stormwatch.

The thing about Jenny Q is she's a glass cannon. So as crazy as she is, it's balanced out by no active defenses. Not super-tough, no super regen, no auto-shields (or, in general, even non-auto shields) etc. etc..

That helps keep her down in the herald range.

Snow Bird and Meggan

Originally posted by Q99 The thing about Jenny Q is she's a glass cannon. So as crazy as she is, it's balanced out by no active defenses. Not super-tough, no super regen, no auto-shields (or, in general, even non-auto shields) etc. etc.. That helps keep her down in the herald range.
she has shown shields in storwatch, i believe.

Wolverine.

suprema:stronger than other any super-strength charater

Evinlia.

I only know the main characters so I could be wrong but my vote is WW.

The reason I say this is because she has perfect defenses:
1. ftl speed and reflexes
2. super skill
3. aegis shield
4. Is resistant to magic
5. Is resistant to TP

She has great attacks
1. The lasso
2. The tiara
3. The counter attack and combo
4. The redeflection of blasts back at you

She has great strength
1. Helping to move planetary objects
2. Helping to move quantifiable objects they weighs more than planetary objects.
3. Physically holding her own with beings who have planetary strength.

She has great durability
1. Can withstand an amped Superman's punch without dying
2. Can withstand hits from Ares and DD (beings much stronger than Superman).


Like with everyone she has weaknesses:
1. Sharp piercing objects. She has braces along with ftl speed reflexes to prevent from getting hit with these though.
2. BFRal to another dimension. I'm not sure she can get back. The usage of speed can prevent this though.

IMO, I feel WW can beat any herald level being in a one on one fight mainly because of speed, skill, and the lasso.

Still Jenny Quantum .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Still Jenny Quantum .

What are her durability, speed, and sensory feats?

I'm thinking that the Punisher can snipe her from behind.

superman

Originally posted by h1a8
What are her durability, speed, and sensory feats?

I'm thinking that the Punisher can snipe her from behind.

She's DC's female equivalent of Franklin Richards(only with a different backstory and is more powerful imo) .
She's a high-tier reality warper , and based on this alone she gets my vote .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
She's DC's female equivalent of Franklin Richards(only with a different backstory and is more powerful imo) .
She's a high-tier reality warper , and based on this alone she gets my vote . If so then she would be at least skyfather level and thus not allowed. But anyway That's irrelevant. She can have TOAA power but still be shot with a bullet in the head from behind. Storm is a powerful character but she is not bulletproof.

But if Jenny is always looking at the future (is she?) then she can't be shot or surprised. Thus she would win the thread (that's if we consider her under skyfather level).

Originally posted by psycho gundam
superman

Scarlet Witch, Jean Grey, and Sersi.

Originally posted by h1a8 What are her durability, speed, and sensory feats? I'm thinking that the Punisher can snipe her from behind.

midnighter tried screeing her over because he felt she was too powerful. that didnt go too well. and i agree with wonder woman is overall the most consistent female super heroes.

Originally posted by Stoic
I think that the Trans line begins, when one character can defeat a team of mid to high heralds with some but not a lot of trouble.
Since it was below transcendentals I initially thought of Nova or Katma. Mainly because there aren't too women on this scale.

Now, Jean as the Phoenix is probably too power, but what about Rachel? She never did anything too impressive, right? Keep in mind this is Rachel as the Phoenix, and not the Dark phoenix.

Then again, it's rather difficult to reach a consensus when the line is as blurry as it is.

Originally posted by h1a8
If so then she would be at least skyfather level and thus not allowed. But anyway That's irrelevant. She can have TOAA power but still be shot with a bullet in the head from behind. Storm is a powerful character but she is not bulletproof.

But if Jenny is always looking at the future (is she?) then she can't be shot or surprised. Thus she would win the thread (that's if we consider her under skyfather level).

Nevermind , I just saw the below-trans rule .

i forgot to add Black Alice and Miss Cosmos.

Originally posted by h1a8

But if Jenny is always looking at the future (is she?) then she can't be shot or surprised.

She is not.




There are two ways she can handle dimensional travel between dimensions. Occasionally WW's travelled to Olympus via meditation, though this might have some more prerequisits.

Then there's the much more usable Seashell of Kane Milohai, gifted when he became her patron. It will transport her to any dimension.

Jessi Quick, Maxima, Sersi, Zatanna, Dianna.

Diana + toys will give her a solid majority over other femal characters in the same weight class. Depending on what she is packing she could be just below trans.

Meggan deserves a nod

Power girl has to be on this list and also Phoneix when she is good.Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Must be below Trans.

Who do you guys think it is?

My candidates: Maxima, Sersi, Wonder Woman, Zatanna, Super Girl, etc.

Feel free to pick your own choice, as those are off of the top of my head.

I tend to think it's either Maxima or Sersi.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Diana + toys will give her a solid majority over other femal characters in the same weight class. Depending on what she is packing she could be just below trans.

The only one who I think is a serious contender for Diana in DC is Maxima.


Originally posted by lilshogun
Power girl has to be on this list

PG's a bit behind WW, but stronger than Supergirl.

Miss Cosmos could take Diana, IMO.

Superman.

Originally posted by Mindset
Superman.

Your confusing Superman, with Kyle Rayner.

My vote would go to either Zatanna, Raven, Black Alice or Enchantress, but then again I'm not sure if they count as Trans. They all have high end feats, but at the same time can be taken out easily. If we exclude them, my money is on Wonder Woman depending what she's packing. Maxima is also a contender. I can't see any other female superhero trading punch with Diana other than her, not even Pee Gee.


As far as Marvel, I'd choose Magik, Rachel or Jean, but once again I'm not sure if they count.

Originally posted by aztec
Your confusing Superman, with Kyle Rayner. Nope.

Superman.

Honorable mention: Hal.

Originally posted by Mindset
Nope.

Superman.

Honorable mention: Hal.

In that case, don't forget Doctor Doom. He's actually a woman underneath that pathetic disguise.

Originally posted by aztec
In that case, don't forget Doctor Doom. He's actually a woman underneath that pathetic disguise. He doesn't even wear a disguise, you're obviously thinking of Superman or Hal.

marvel: Hope, Magik, Wanda, Meggan, Binary, Photon, Talisman, Snowbird, Sersi, maybe danger and rouge...( she has owned the avengers a couple of times)

dc: WW, Enchantress, Zatana ( a bit of a glass canon though), Supre girl, raven, Maxima, Black Alice, Black mary marvel, jenny q , engineer

pretty sure im missing a couple..

Originally posted by nwg202
marvel: Hope, Magik, Wanda, Meggan, Binary, Photon, Talisman, Snowbird, Sersi, maybe danger and rouge...( she has owned the avengers a couple of times)

Danger's mainly dangerous against people she has enough data on to make perfect counters against.

Magik's really strong... against magic users. Or if in Limbo.

Rogue depends on absorption. On her own, not so much.

Originally posted by Q99
Danger's mainly dangerous against people she has enough data on to make perfect counters against.

Magik's really strong... against magic users. Or if in Limbo.

Rogue depends on absorption. On her own, not so much.

yup. but magik's teleportation alone can make her a team buster in its own right, she can port through space time and dimensions which mean she can trap people at the end of time or different dimensions, trap then into a solid object or time travel. it can be used as offense and defense as sheild or she she can redirect blasts or take of limbs, weapons etc... and she can manipulate time on a vast scale, it's her mutant power. she reversed the 616 reality. all the avengers and x-men that died were brought back to life. she can overrun the place with demons ala darkness. She has owned x-teams on earth with her magic as well sure shes not godlike like she is in limbo but limbo is always a split second away...

Danger cant be destroyed by physical attacks, she needs someone who can hack into her. she can also absorb tech...so can probably absorb a whole city. she did the invisible woman forcefield over the head last issue, plus sonics, shapeshifting, lasers, cl 100 strenght, morphing, holograms, solid light constructs etc..

How often does she do each of those? And for that matter, has she ever 'ported limbs off, trapped someone in a solid object, or so on?



Sure she can be. Or rather, her body can be smashed, and it's not all that tough. When the X-men fought her, even Beast could cause damage fairly easily.

Originally posted by Q99
How often does she do each of those? And for that matter, has she ever 'ported limbs off, trapped someone in a solid object, or so on?



Sure she can be. Or rather, her body can be smashed, and it's not all that tough. When the X-men fought her, even Beast could cause damage fairly easily.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/108019/2343527-tumblr_m3zjoxn7si1rrslrmo1_500.png

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/108019/2400674-44942.jpg

She's probably done it more then flashs imp or juggs force field...not sure about that though

danger reformed from being the celestial attack. she was completely destroyed then she reformed into a big danger room.

Ok, did a limb when it was giant. Not so sure it'd work on a smaller opponent.



Still, she was defeated, she just transfered her mind away. Plus, one could destroy the big danger room too and that'd be it for Danger.

Originally posted by Q99
Ok, did a limb when it was giant. Not so sure it'd work on a smaller opponent.



Still, she was defeated, she just transfered her mind away. Plus, one could destroy the big danger room too and that'd be it for Danger.

yes i said you cant defeat her by just punching her and tearing her apart. Of course she can be defeated...

My point is you can, you just have to do some additional punching and tearing apart at her backup location.

With regards to magik's control of her stepping disc size, she has opened small portals which she used as shields and opened a portal the size of city...she brought limbo to earth. she has teleported weapons out of peoples hands. She can place it anywhere and make it face any angle, and she can do multiple discs in excess of 20 her limit is really unknown. so that one disc alone can be used for a ton of defensive or offensive options and she can do it from other dimensions

Magik deserves a mention for sure.

Amethyst should get a mention. At her most poweful, she owned Mordru and made him cry like a *****.

Amethyst is trans at least. She is a Lord of Order that put her beyond trans

Pretty sure Mantis isn't trans, but she can hang with heralds on sheer skill.

She's basically Marvels Val Armorr.

I repeat...

Originally posted by -K-M-
Talisman and Snowbird.

Amethyst!

Squirrel Girl

Edit: Sorry this is under trans.

Aren't Zatanna and Black Alice too powerful for this thread?

Zatanna? No she qualifies as under Trans.

Black Alice? By herself she qualifies. But depending on who she yoinks may or may not.

Originally posted by Glorificus
Zatanna? No she qualifies as under Trans.

Black Alice? By herself she qualifies. But depending on who she yoinks may or may not.

I would think what she pulled in Seven Soldiers and the BS her Earth-3 self pulled would put her above High Herald.

So it's obvious that several women with a ton of power and versatility would nonetheless lose against others with more esoteric abilities. For instance, while Diana could beat Sersi in a physical fight, she probably couldn't do it before Sersi turned her into a sweet-smelling breeze. Similarly, Jenny Quantum can presumably be killed without much effort, unless she had time to defend herself, which she would do with terrible finality.

I actually remember pre-DCnu Quantum busting out a lightspeed reaction feat (something like shutting off a signal after it entered the room but before it reached its receiver) but I would have to comb through a ton of old issues to find it.

Well I guess if you include Magik to the list then you have to add Black Widow from the recent AvX Vs #3

This event is such garbage

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
I would think what she pulled in Seven Soldiers and the BS her Earth-3 self pulled would put her above High Herald.

Care to share what she pulled in 7 Soldiers? And she has spells to put down high cosmic beings like Starbreaker.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Care to share what she pulled in 7 Soldiers? And she has spells to put down high cosmic beings like Starbreaker.

Taking down Zor the Rogue Time Tailor? He was at the very least Skyfather.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Well I guess if you include Magik to the list then you have to add Black Widow from the recent AvX Vs #3

This event is such garbage

Magik won .

Confirmation : http://acomicbookblog.com/2012/06/avengers-vs-x-men-vs-3-review/

She did, but did you read the issue? She only won because after Black Widow "defeated" her (in Limbo mind you) she turned her back and was moving on and then Magik stabbed her in the back with the soulsword

Originally posted by Q99
How often does she do each of those? And for that matter, has she ever 'ported limbs off, trapped someone in a solid object, or so on?

I'm not getting into the debate on Magick herself, but just gotta point to make. Do you think it really matters how many times she's done something considering the nature of the debate here? The discussion is about who's most powerful, not who'd win in a fight. If a character has done something at least once, or at least SHOWN to be capable of it(not just can do it in pure theory, but something shown to support it) and without there being extenuating circumstances that allowed it, then that's all that matters when gauging how POWERFUL someone is.

Originally posted by h1a8
I only know the main characters so I could be wrong but my vote is WW.

The reason I say this is because she has perfect defenses:
1. ftl speed and reflexes

Reflexes I can buy, but her overall speed? What has she done? I've seen little to nothing of either her flight or combat speed to indicate she's even near-lightspeed, let alone FTL.

Originally posted by h1a8
2. super skill

While useful in a fight, skill shouldn't count towards power. Unless someone has a power that gives them skill(like some supernatural talent for fighting, or an ability to draw skill/knowledge). Which Diana doesn't have. Just really trained.

Originally posted by h1a8
5. Is resistant to TP

IS she? I recall something about the Maxwell Lord thing, but even she seemed unclear of it, and it's arguable that the nature of what Max was doing is why she'd be resistant. I remember during the DARKNESS WITHIN crossover that she wasn't able to resist Maxima's telepathy when Eclipso took her over, although Maxima's a damn powerful telepath.

Originally posted by h1a8
She has great attacks
3. The counter attack and combo

What do you mean by this?

Originally posted by h1a8
4. The redeflection of blasts back at you

Doesn't this fall under the Aegis thing you already mentioned?

Originally posted by h1a8
She has great strength
2. Helping to move quantifiable objects they weighs more than planetary objects.

What are you talking about? What feat of strength does she have greater than Earth, other than helping Superman slow-down Spectre? You said "objects," plural, so clearly you meant multiple feats, unless that was a typo.

Originally posted by h1a8
3. Physically holding her own with beings who have planetary strength.

Honestly, she doesn't look that great against Superman when he's not holding back.

Originally posted by h1a8
She has great durability
2. Can withstand hits from Ares and DD (beings much stronger than Superman).

I'll have to take your word on Ares(would like evidence of this, though), but I don't think Doomsday is a good example. During DOOMSDAY WARS, when Brainiac was in control, he was clearly toying with her, so I doubt she was enduring what he could truly dish-out. Plus, it being Brainiac in control probably meant his strength wasn't increasing.


Originally posted by h1a8
Like with everyone she has weaknesses:
2. BFRal to another dimension. I'm not sure she can get back. The usage of speed can prevent this though.

Someone already covered this, with a couple of examples, although he wasn't 100% sure on the first. I can back that she has on occasion traveled between Olympus and Earth. But even if she can consistently do this on her own, it doesn't necessarily mean she can escape dimensional BFR in general. On the Olympus thing, of course.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Reflexes I can buy, but her overall speed? What has she done? I've seen little to nothing of either her flight or combat speed to indicate she's even near-lightspeed, let alone FTL. I'm not the definitive Diana expert but I've seen feats where she went halfway around the Earth in a split second with both Superman and flash, entered the speed force under her own power, moving her arms so fast that she simultaneously deflect numerous beams of light no matter how large the barrage, lassoed zoom while blindfolded, lassoed amazo with flash's powers before he can react, etc. She may not be as fast as Superman in raw speed but her battle speed (movement of limbs and reflexes) are second only to flash.


Skill can singlehandedly make one character beat beings in a higher tier. Look at CA and Batman. It is her skill that allows her to compete with Superman and possible be able to beat him for a majority.


I'm not a WW expert but I believe it was stated in comics that she is immune or highly resistant against TP. She even has a limited form of TP.

Due to WW's great skill she is known at times to counter her foes attack and counter with a barrage of skillful attacks (a combo). She is also known to deflect beams right back at its sender. Potentially (bloodlusted) she could beat most heralds within a few seconds with a simple counter and tiara slice/or lasso tie.


No. Her bracers deflect beams by default. With her great skill, speed, and reflexes she can sometimes aim the bracer in such a way to send the beam back wherever she wants.


It was a typo. Sorry. I meant unquantifiable and I was referring to the Spectre feat only. By portrayal she is often seen as a peer to Superman in strength (not as strong as him but not far behind). Also, she has feats of momentarily overpowering a daximite, being stated to have a strength greater than Hercules, etc. She also has the godwave which increase her abilities 10 fold.



Honestly, she doesn't look that great against Superman when he's not holding back.In Sacrifice it was her that was holding back while still being able to compete. Although I don't use comic fights as evidence unless both characters are fighting optimally (as indicative of a forum fight) but she could have killed or stopped Superman within the first few moments of battle if she really wanted to. She could have countered one of his punches with a tiara slice instantly, or lassoed him after ringing his ears, etc.
She has the ability to pressure point hit Superman in order to buy her enough time to finish him off (especially with the lasso).


Ares is her main enemy. She was created or gifted in order to battle Ares. The same as Drax was created to stop Thanos. My point is that she is no slouch on durability. She can hang with the big boys is all I'm saying.


I'm not sure, never known her to dimension travel.

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm not the definitive Diana expert but I've seen feats where she went halfway around the Earth in a split second with both Superman and flash, entered the speed force under her own power, moving her arms so fast that she simultaneously deflect numerous beams of light no matter how large the barrage, lassoed zoom while blindfolded, lassoed amazo with flash's powers before he can react, etc. She may not be as fast as Superman in raw speed but her battle speed (movement of limbs and reflexes) are second only to flash.

No, Superman's still faster. His feats are more impressive, and on more than one occasion we've seen him faster than her in a fight. As for traveling around Earth, there was nothing to indicate that was even near-lightspeed. It could be very high supersonic, but that example didn't look like an FTL feat. The entering the Speed Force example seems suspect. Not a Flash expert, but to my understanding, you can't do that on your own without a connection to it. Superboy Prime implied that you can if you're fast enough, but I've seen nothing to indicate Wonder Woman can fly faster than Superman, who I don't believe has ever entered it on his own(or at all). The Zoom example I believe was more skill than speed by anticipating him(although she had to be fast, it doesn't mean FTL, as someone who didn't even appear to be superhuman in speed was able to do the same with Flash), and the Amazo example while fast, I think surprise had to do with it. I've seen her have impressive blocking examples, but that doesn't mean her combat speed is FTL.

Originally posted by h1a8
Skill can singlehandedly make one character beat beings in a higher tier. Look at CA and Batman. It is her skill that allows her to compete with Superman and possible be able to beat him for a majority.

I never disputed skill helping in a fight. But unless it's some type of power, it has nothing to do with how powerful one is. And last I checked, Wonder Woman's skill came from training and experience, not a power. So this isn't something that matters for the topic.

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm not a WW expert but I believe it was stated in comics that she is immune or highly resistant against TP. She even has a limited form of TP.

I know she's been controlled by telepathy at least once(although Maxima's a pretty powerful one), and I think she's been effected at least once before, some example with the white Martians, but I'm not sure. The only time I've seen that might have been an example of TP resistance, the Max example in SACRIFICE, is suspect in it being pure resistance, and IIRC even she wasn't positive.

Originally posted by h1a8
Due to WW's great skill she is known at times to counter her foes attack and counter with a barrage of skillful attacks (a combo). She is also known to deflect beams right back at its sender. Potentially (bloodlusted) she could beat most heralds within a few seconds with a simple counter and tiara slice/or lasso tie.

So, still on the skill. A non-factor in who's more POWERFUL.

Originally posted by h1a8
No. Her bracers deflect beams by default. With her great skill, speed, and reflexes she can sometimes aim the bracer in such a way to send the beam back wherever she wants.

um OK? And this argument is largely based around her skill, not strictly her power.

Originally posted by h1a8
It was a typo. Sorry. I meant unquantifiable and I was referring to the Spectre feat only. By portrayal she is often seen as a peer to Superman in strength (not as strong as him but not far behind). Also, she has feats of momentarily overpowering a daximite, being stated to have a strength greater than Hercules, etc. She also has the godwave which increase her abilities 10 fold.

Ah, ok. But on the Daxamite, if you mean what I think you do, I'm not impressed. Weren't they wrestling, thus it wasn't pure strength? Plus it's questionable how much sun she had, and she was blind in at least one eye IIRC, so that would effect her performance to a degree. Being stronger than Hercules doesn't impress me all that much, I haven't seen anything to indicate he's a planet-mover. I recall something about he admitted things he did had been embellished. But, no, she is far behind Superman. Her looking like a peer is because he holds back. Numerous occasions Superman has either overpowered her, or otherwise shown to be stronger.

Like here.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Relative%20Strength/Wonder%20Woman/week15-1999-Action-753-10.jpg

Or here.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Relative%20Strength/Wonder%20Woman/SUPERMAN%20V2-165/

Some people have tried to use this as evidence that she's close to his strength, but they either don't notice or ignore the context. Her pinning him has a lot to do with skill, and, well, him being distracted by Luthor's election. And, well, you can see what he does.

Then we have this.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Relative%20Strength/Wonder%20Woman/SUPERMAN%20V2-211/

She charges him, he stops her dead-on by grabbing her wrist. Also catches her punch. And he's through-out the entire fight, he's rather calm and not showing any real struggle. He generally treats her like she's not a threat at all. Then we have this.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Relative%20Strength/Wonder%20Woman/AOS%20642-WW%20V2-219/

Forcing her down, without too much effort, when Max was in control. Then we have this.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Relative%20Strength/Wonder%20Woman/WW%20V2-219/

See how she's trying to force his hands off her throat? Watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9srBDFW0Z0

She's attempting to break his grip using a technique that allows a victim to break the grip of a STRONGER attacker. So, he's MUCH stronger than her.

Then there's this.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Relative%20Strength/Wonder%20Woman/INFINITE%20CRISIS%201/

She tries to kill Mongul with her sword, he stops her cold.

And this isn't even including MAN OF TOMORROW #13 where she has help from Barda, Martian Manhunter and more and the leverage advantage, and they can still barely restrain him. Some argue that he was Sun-Amped, but considering how he tossed her around the issue before, and comparing his performance against Orion, I don't see him having a noticeable boost.

Originally posted by h1a8
In Sacrifice it was her that was holding back while still being able to compete. Although I don't use comic fights as evidence unless both characters are fighting optimally (as indicative of a forum fight) but she could have killed or stopped Superman within the first few moments of battle if she really wanted to. She could have countered one of his punches with a tiara slice instantly, or lassoed him after ringing his ears, etc.
She has the ability to pressure point hit Superman in order to buy her enough time to finish him off (especially with the lasso).

Actually, by her own words she was barely holding back. And his mental state was a serious, serious handicap. Yet he was still trashing her. In all reality that fight just shows how superior he is over her, considering how handicapped he was and she still barely wins, and on a technicality, that she likely wouldn't have pulled-off had he not been in his state of mind. And I don't know where you're getting that she could have stopped or killed him in the first few moments of the fight. He absolutely overwhelmed her while fighting like an idiot. The real turning point for her was when she snuck-up on him and attacked the ears. Something I doubt she would've accomplished if he knew he was fighting her instead of Doomsday(someone not known for stealth or tactics). The tiara is something that can hurt him, but only if it can hit him. If he he actually knew who he was facing, he could've dodged or countered it, and that would've been that.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ares is her main enemy. She was created or gifted in order to battle Ares. The same as Drax was created to stop Thanos. My point is that she is no slouch on durability. She can hang with the big boys is all I'm saying.

That tells me nothing about how strong Ares is. You claimed he was stronger than Superman. Why?


Originally posted by h1a8
I'm not sure, never known her to dimension travel.

Olympus is in another dimension, but this example doesn't mean she could generally counter dimension dump BFR. She did use her ability to reach Asgard in JLA/AVENGERS if that's worth anything.

Originally posted by -K-M-
She did, but did you read the issue? She only won because after Black Widow "defeated" her (in Limbo mind you) she turned her back and was moving on and then Magik stabbed her in the back with the soulsword

Haven't seen the fight yet. At least she did better then x-force and Wonderman Yup I agree, the avs vs battles have just been....and those fun facts are starting to get annoying.

So did she actually use any magic spells? armor up? use Limbo against her? Go demon mode? Did her demon army just watch the whole fight happen?or did she just go hand to hand with natasha in her regular human form the whole time? LOL.

Doc strange, Zatanna or Talisman vs widow, they just decide to engage her hand to hand... to be fair Illyana does brawl a lot more than they do..which i have no idea why, when she can do almost anything in Limbo.

She was probably just playing around with her food. She should have just gone demon mode and crushed her skull with her bare hands. well deathstroke tripped and stabbed wally so anything can happen i guess...

When they fight each other, she tends to get more hits in.

In JLA they directly addressed it- Superman is faster, i.e. he can run and fly faster. But WW has quicker arms and better reflexes.

Originally posted by Q99
When they fight each other, she tends to get more hits in.

In JLA they directly addressed it- Superman is faster, i.e. he can run and fly faster. But WW has quicker arms and better reflexes.

Superman doesn't normally dodge, and he doesn't need many hits for Wonder Woman. She most certainly did not look faster than him here.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/A%20LEAGUE%20OF%20ONE/

Unless she's just not that skilled? And I've seen nothing to indicate she has the kind of time perceptions that he does. She has more trained reflexes, but his time perceptions are faster, so it wouldn't matter if he was really using his speed.

Originally posted by Q99
When they fight each other, she tends to get more hits in.

In JLA they directly addressed it- Superman is faster, i.e. he can run and fly faster. But WW has quicker arms and better reflexes.
Only one writer who was getting his ass kicked on DCMB and then after getting pissed included it in a comic. Superman has better reflexes feats than diana.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Only one writer who was getting his ass kicked on DCMB and then after getting pissed included it in a comic. Superman has better reflexes feats than diana.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Only one writer who was getting his ass kicked on DCMB and then after getting pissed included it in a comic.

Busiek?

Originally posted by cdtm
Busiek?

I think it was that black dude who was one of the founders of Milestone and worked on the JLU cartoon.

Originally posted by cdtm
Busiek?
Mcduffie. He also accepted that he nerfed superman on purpose to give other characters a chance. He also wrote Dr. Light oneshotting superman.

Originally posted by nwg202
Haven't seen the fight yet. At least she did better then x-force and Wonderman Yup I agree, the avs vs battles have just been....and those fun facts are starting to get annoying.

So did she actually use any magic spells? armor up? use Limbo against her? Go demon mode? Did her demon army just watch the whole fight happen?or did she just go hand to hand with natasha in her regular human form the whole time? LOL.

Doc strange, Zatanna or Talisman vs widow, they just decide to engage her hand to hand... to be fair Illyana does brawl a lot more than they do..which i have no idea why, when she can do almost anything in Limbo.

She was probably just playing around with her food. She should have just gone demon mode and crushed her skull with her bare hands. well deathstroke tripped and stabbed wally so anything can happen i guess...

Instatly took her to Limbo, and then sent several demons to attack Widow but she killed them with her guns. Magik then tried to cast a spell, but Widow jumped her before she could finish. She then started to pound on Magik, and then she summons 1000 demons, but Widow points a gun to her head and orders to take her back to the real world. She does. Magik is on the ground bloody and Widow turns her back and says "whose next?" and starts to leave. Magik then stabs her in the back with the Soulsword and then she mentioned it had to be a game to her or she would be dead (Widow). If Widow didnt turn her back and truely finished it she would have won.

Magik never took demon form, but really she jobbed. There is no reason for Widow to even give Magik pause.

Originally posted by Delta1938
No, Superman's still faster. His feats are more impressive, and on more than one occasion we've seen him faster than her in a fight. As for traveling around Earth, there was nothing to indicate that was even near-lightspeed. It could be very high supersonic, but that example didn't look like an FTL feat. The entering the Speed Force example seems suspect. Not a Flash expert, but to my understanding, you can't do that on your own without a connection to it. Superboy Prime implied that you can if you're fast enough, but I've seen nothing to indicate Wonder Woman can fly faster than Superman, who I don't believe has ever entered it on his own(or at all). The Zoom example I believe was more skill than speed by anticipating him(although she had to be fast, it doesn't mean FTL, as someone who didn't even appear to be superhuman in speed was able to do the same with Flash), and the Amazo example while fast, I think surprise had to do with it. I've seen her have impressive blocking examples, but that doesn't mean her combat speed is FTL.The thing is WW has blocked barrages of light speed beams simultaneously proving that she can move her limbs and react at ftl speeds. You can't block a barrage of light speed attacks without being FTL. It's impossible. She even got examples of blocking them on both sides, front and back. Yes Superman is faster though. You are right. It's her skill and speed together that allows her to keep up in a battle with him.Your definition of being more powerful is different than mine. More powerful is being more formidable and not just having greater power output (as in blast strength or punch strength). Power is the ability to which one can force an outcome of a fight. The greater one can affect the outcome then the more powerful they are.I wish Nver was here or a WW expert. They can give you other instances or evidence to her resistance against TP, I can't so I'll concede there. Again, it factors into being more powerful since it's relevant to how it forces an outcome. Again my definition is different than yours. Skill is a power, whether gained through training, magic, or etc. it's irrelevant. Power=ability to force an outcome. While grappled up, it shows strength not skill. If not, then no that no amount of skill can cause you to win a wrestle if you are very much weaker. You will simply be restrained with ease.

Going by feats then Superman is stronger. Going by some portrayals Superman is stronger. Going by some other portrayals Superman is stronger by a small margin. But you are right, the small margin is going along when he is holding back. A non holding back Superman is on a different level.

Lastly, your logic is wrong on one thing though. If a holding back Superman is stronger than WW by a mere 100 tons then he can still treat her like a rag doll and still crush her like she is a baby. If an egg can take 5lb of force without cracking then what happens if you subject the egg to 5.01lb of force? Yes, the egg will crack. So although Superman overpowers WW in comics it still doesn't mean she isn't in the vicinity of him when he is holding back. Even a 10ton strength difference is noticeable when it concerns grappling and restraining. She was blocking and dodging his attacks right? Well she could have countered with a tiara slice across the throat earlier and then tied him up. Also she rang his ears right? Well she could have hog tied him while he was stunned. Yes Superman fought like an idiot and was handicapped. That is why I don't value comic fights in these cases (where characters aren't fighting optimally as well seen them do before). A high end Superman fighting smart and actually using all his abilities will beat WW for a majority. But WW can win a few due to a lucky counter strike that leads to a lasso win. I believe he easily overpowered Superman before showing that he was in a different league. But don't quote me on that since this is stuff I heard. Trust me, I think the guy is strong as hell.

wonder woman?
i think DC silver age supergirl was far stronger than her,the SA supergirl almost as strong as SA superman,who just one sneeze destroy a solar system

YESH, next time would you please make sure there's more space between the quotes and when you respond? I've had to have trouble separating your responses. Thanks in advanced.

Originally posted by h1a8
The thing is WW has blocked barrages of light speed beams simultaneously proving that she can move her limbs and react at ftl speeds. You can't block a barrage of light speed attacks without being FTL. It's impossible. She even got examples of blocking them on both sides, front and back. Yes Superman is faster though. You are right. It's her skill and speed together that allows her to keep up in a battle with him.

Yeah, I've seen her do stuff like that, but I haven't seen anything particular for her time perceptions, nor anything beyond the blocking that really qualifies for FTL combat speed. Street Level characters with normal human speed are still capable of catching bullets, for a scaled-down comparison.

Originally posted by h1a8
Your definition of being more powerful is different than mine. More powerful is being more formidable and not just having greater power output (as in blast strength or punch strength). Power is the ability to which one can force an outcome of a fight. The greater one can affect the outcome then the more powerful they are.

I hate to use the Appeal To The Majority, but I'd say you're one of the very few who'd count skill as an actual factor in one's power. It simply isn't the case. Being more formidable doesn't mean more powerful. It's as simple as that. It might be your opinion, but to be blunt it's flat-out wrong.

Originally posted by h1a8
I wish Nver was here or a WW expert. They can give you other instances or evidence to her resistance against TP, I can't so I'll concede there.

She might, but I haven't seen any concrete examples. And I know I've seen one example of her being taken over, might have seen another, or at least another of telepathy effecting her.

Originally posted by h1a8
Again, it factors into being more powerful since it's relevant to how it forces an outcome. Again my definition is different than yours.

And your definition is still incorrect.

Originally posted by h1a8
Skill is a power, whether gained through training, magic, or etc. it's irrelevant. Power=ability to force an outcome.

OK, now the magick thing is an exception. But this is an exception, not the rule.

Originally posted by h1a8
While grappled up, it shows strength not skill. If not, then no that no amount of skill can cause you to win a wrestle if you are very much weaker. You will simply be restrained with ease.

I take it you've never trained in a grappling-based Martial Art? Strength at the least does help, and sometimes can be very important, but you're completely unaware of how important skill is. When I had first started Judo, I ranged from having trouble to being beaten in sparring sessions with girls HALF MY SIZE who were much higher ranked than I was. As I got better, I was able to out-grapple guys bigger than me, including in street fights if it went to the ground.

But you missed the point that I was saying it wasn't pure strength, and do we even know how much sunlight she got? She could've been fairly to very weak for a Daxamite. And the being partially blind couldn't have helped.

Originally posted by h1a8
Going by feats then Superman is stronger. Going by some portrayals Superman is stronger. Going by some other portrayals Superman is stronger by a small margin. But you are right, the small margin is going along when he is holding back. A non holding back Superman is on a different level.

It's established canon for Pre-DCnU that Superman holds back, and actually to the point that he subconsciously regulates his powers. Many, many times Superman has blatantly overpowered her. And he has a couple of showings where entire groups attempt to restrain him, with leverage, and struggle or even fail, one included Wonder Woman, the other at least two who are on her level. I wouldn't say so much of "portrayals" as just how much he's holding back. I mean the fight in FOR TOMORROW he showed to be her superior in strength twice while the entire fight he treated her like she wasn't even a threat. That pretty much screams he's on another level to me.

Originally posted by h1a8
Lastly, your logic is wrong on one thing though. If a holding back Superman is stronger than WW by a mere 100 tons then he can still treat her like a rag doll and still crush her like she is a baby. If an egg can take 5lb of force without cracking then what happens if you subject the egg to 5.01lb of force? Yes, the egg will crack. So although Superman overpowers WW in comics it still doesn't mean she isn't in the vicinity of him when he is holding back. Even a 10ton strength difference is noticeable when it concerns grappling and restraining.

I highly doubt that 100 ton or even 1,000 ton difference in strength would be that noticeable at her level of strength.

Originally posted by h1a8
She was blocking and dodging his attacks right? Well she could have countered with a tiara slice across the throat earlier and then tied him up. Also she rang his ears right? Well she could have hog tied him while he was stunned. Yes Superman fought like an idiot and was handicapped. That is why I don't value comic fights in these cases (where characters aren't fighting optimally as well seen them do before).

He thought he was fighting Doomsday. A larger, unintelligent brute who's not prone to fighting skillfully or using either tactics or stealth. If he really knew who he was fighting, do you think she'd have been able to pull off what she did? If he knew it was Wonder Woman, do you think he'd be standing there actively listening for her? No, I don't think he would. You think if he knew she was using her tiara, that he'd stand there and let it slice his throat? I doubt it. And he could've dodged it, or used his breath to deflect it. Maybe even catch it. But the reality is, all those things she did that gave her a chance and then the win wouldn't have worked if he had any clue what he was actually facing.

Originally posted by h1a8
A high end Superman fighting smart and actually using all his abilities will beat WW for a majority. But WW can win a few due to a lucky counter strike that leads to a lasso win.

Well, I'd say more of a "not holding back" Superman. But you mean like this?

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/S-B%2015/016-supermanbatman015rembrandt-dcp.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/S-B%2015/017-supermanbatman015rembrandt-dcp.jpg

Yeah, she'd need luck to win.

Originally posted by h1a8
I believe he easily overpowered Superman before showing that he was in a different league. But don't quote me on that since this is stuff I heard. Trust me, I think the guy is strong as hell.

Well, I'd have to see it, and know when it happened. Since Superman's had multiple power-ups over the years after THE MAN OF STEEL mini. Others have noted his increase in strength, actually.

Originally posted by a88378438
wonder woman?
i think DC silver age supergirl was far stronger than her,the SA supergirl almost as strong as SA superman,who just one sneeze destroy a solar system

Far as I know, we're not using Pre-CRISIS.

Originally posted by -K-M-
She did, but did you read the issue? She only won because after Black Widow "defeated" her (in Limbo mind you) she turned her back and was moving on and then Magik stabbed her in the back with the soulsword

I did read the issue . I'll admit that it wasn't really a stomp , but this is a street-leveller we're talking about . At least she didn't pull off a decisive win as some had predicted .

Btw , Natasha didn't actually "defeat" her , in the literal sense of the word , in Limbo , she simply forced her to teleport them both back to Earth . If she had stayed on , she would have got the Amanda Krueger treatment and worse .

Magik was on the ground struggling and was bloody. If Widow didnt turn her back she could of won which is silly.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Magik was on the ground struggling and was bloody. If Widow didnt turn her back she could of won which is silly.

Yup. That whole match up was silly. They just needed two girls who can speak russian so they could try their new app. At least someone told me the russian translation made it clear that magik was treating it like a game, and if she was serious that widow would die...still a silly match though especially when she beat strange in the same event. Yep handle Enchantress, Belasco, Magus, Strange and Legion in Limbo while you get your ass handed to you by the black widow...gotta love Marvel...

Originally posted by -K-M-
Magik was on the ground struggling and was bloody. If Widow didnt turn her back she could of won which is silly.

Magik also stated that :
"You think broken bones...torn flesh...are the worst thing that's ever happened to me ?"
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/sp/121f2e6658bd9f452012df267e30ba7c/AVX-Zone_017.jpg

Basically she wasn't all that bothered by the Widow's beating .

At the end of the day she still won(although the I agree that the whole fight was poorly written , which makes me hate street-levellers even more now) .

Originally posted by nwg202
Yup. That whole match up was silly. They just needed two girls who can speak russian so they could try their new app. At least someone told me the russian translation made it clear that magik was treating it like a game, and if she was serious that widow would die...still a silly match though especially when she beat strange in the same event. Yep handle Enchantress, Belasco, Magus, Strange and Legion in Limbo while you get your ass handed to you by the black widow...gotta love Marvel...

Confirmation : http://acomicbookblog.com/2012/06/avengers-vs-x-men-vs-3-review/

Btw , this entire event(AvX) has turned out to be garbage .

So she just brought out her sword at the end of the match? She was going hand to hand in her human form the whole time? No armor no Demon form hmmm.. that's kinda dumb. lol She just wanted to sharpen her hand to hand skills I guess.

I guess she was playing around then, when she battled Strange she was in demon form and the sword was out at the start of the fight.

actually broken bones and torn flesh really don't mean much to her. she'll just heal herself.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/108019/2387826-heal.jpg

Keep in mind that was an alt timeline. Different Diana.


In the main timeline, Diana has fought no-holding back Clark who used his powers well, doing stuff like using heatvision while blitzing and trying to throw her into the sun, and avoiding the lasso every time she tried to use it.

In Sacrifice, where she won in the end. Hurt a lot, but won.

Then there was another time when he was made mindlessly angry, but stronger (Circe cast an enchantment on him that made him grow doomsday-like bone and muscle). Managed there too, held him off until she got the lasso around him and broke the enchantment (despite another villain stealing the lasso at the start of the fight making her have to retrieve it).


WW is a character who's alternate versions tend to be weaker and less impressive, but in the main timeline WW's fought Superman maybe a half dozen times and holds her own reliably. It's one of the most consistent matchups around in terms of portrayal, really. Superman has the edge due to power with causes attrition, but WW does have the ability to equalize things or get a win if there's an opening with her weapons.

Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind that was an alt timeline. Different Diana.


In the main timeline, Diana has fought no-holding back Clark who used his powers well, doing stuff like using heatvision while blitzing and trying to throw her into the sun, and avoiding the lasso every time she tried to use it.

In Sacrifice, where she won in the end. Hurt a lot, but won.

Then there was another time when he was made mindlessly angry, but stronger (Circe cast an enchantment on him that made him grow doomsday-like bone and muscle). Managed there too, held him off until she got the lasso around him and broke the enchantment (despite another villain stealing the lasso at the start of the fight making her have to retrieve it).


WW is a character who's alternate versions tend to be weaker and less impressive, but in the main timeline WW's fought Superman maybe a half dozen times and holds her own reliably. It's one of the most consistent matchups around in terms of portrayal, really. Superman has the edge due to power with causes attrition, but WW does have the ability to equalize things or get a win if there's an opening with her weapons.
She didn't win in sacrifice though and she herself said that superman would've killed her in two "blocked" punches in WW 175. This is what happens when the fight is not in a wonder woman comic or superman is not mind-controlled

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Energy/hv/FinalCrisis06b.jpg

Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind that was an alt timeline. Different Diana.

Wrong, it wasn't an alternate timeline. It was the main timeline, simply manipulated. You argue different Diana? What about different Superman? Odds are he had none of the power-ups when time was messed with there, he simply wasn't holding back like he used to.

Originally posted by Q99
In the main timeline, Diana has fought no-holding back Clark who used his powers well, doing stuff like using heatvision while blitzing and trying to throw her into the sun, and avoiding the lasso every time she tried to use it.

In Sacrifice, where she won in the end. Hurt a lot, but won.

I've read SACRIFICE, I know what happened. She did horribly, actually. The only reason she survived is Superman's state of mind. He thought he was fighting Doomsday, and was fighting like an idiot. Do you really think it's a smart move to punch someone who can't fly back to Earth? That's what he thought he was doing. And if it weren't for him being under the illusion he was, she wouldn't have pulled-off the tiara move. If he knew it was coming, he could've and would've either dodged or deflected it, possibly even catch it. Oh yeah, and the whole turning point in the fight was when she snuck-up on him and slammed her bracelets into his ears while he was actively using his hearing. Something she wouldn't have pulled-off if he knew he was fighting her instead of Doomsday(someone neither known for tactics or stealth). Plus, he STILL wasn't going all-out. In the next issue of the storyline, we find-out that Superman wanted to make Doomsday suffer before killing him. So, she fought a barely holding back Superman who was fighting like a retard and didn't know who his opponent was.

Originally posted by Q99
Then there was another time when he was made mindlessly angry, but stronger (Circe cast an enchantment on him that made him grow doomsday-like bone and muscle). Managed there too, held him off until she got the lasso around him and broke the enchantment (despite another villain stealing the lasso at the start of the fight making her have to retrieve it).

No, he wasn't stronger than normal. If he were, she would've died. I've seen people argue that his strength was boosted, claiming it was his strength plus Doomsday's. Oh yeah, and he was handicapped there too, with his intelligence being turned primitive. Even with that handicap, I do not see her surviving if he was stronger, especially DD+SM strong. About the only thing that Circe's enchantment added was the bone spurs on his knuckles, which came into play a whole once during the fight. As for her losing the lasso, yeah a villain(Silver Swan? Don't remember if it was "Silver" or not), but you forget, that she initially lost it because he overwhelmed her and made her drop it.

Originally posted by Q99
WW is a character who's alternate versions tend to be weaker and less impressive, but in the main timeline WW's fought Superman maybe a half dozen times and holds her own reliably. It's one of the most consistent matchups around in terms of portrayal, really. Superman has the edge due to power with causes attrition, but WW does have the ability to equalize things or get a win if there's an opening with her weapons.

Her alternate versions tend to be weaker and less impressive? Maybe, but if you argue "different Diana" for SUPERMAN/BATMAN #15, you have to admit this would be a different Superman. And it's the only example we have of Superman not holding back AND not being handicapped. And considering fights we've seen like in FOR TOMORROW and A LEAGUE OF ONE where she still looks inferior despite him not taking her seriously, combined with how poorly she does when he's all-out but handicapped, well, I think the S/B fight is what would happen without circumstances hindering him. The best she ever did was in ACTION COMICS #600, when Superman was still under Byrne, and it was a "mock battle."

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Confirmation : http://acomicbookblog.com/2012/06/avengers-vs-x-men-vs-3-review/

Btw , this entire event(AvX) has turned out to be garbage .


Just chalk it up as a great pot buzz gone awry.

Originally posted by Delta1938
YESH, next time would you please make sure there's more space between the quotes and when you respond? I've had to have trouble separating your responses. Thanks in advanced. Sorry.

That's all she needs to prove that she can move and respond at ftl speeds. Thus she can fight at ftl speeds.

Is Karate Kid (Val) powerful? Why?
My definition is not only the correct one but I believe it is the one of Majority. Otherwise, what is the relevance of talking about being more powerful when it has nothing to do with winning power or ability to force an outcome? It's just stupid and wasteful talk then. Think about it.

Outmaneuvering and leverage vs. overpowering is two different things. You have to be in the vicinity of someone's strength just to move them against their will. Batman can't move Superman against Kal's will no matter how skilled he is. Skill will help (for leverage) but you definitely have to at least be in their strength vicinity.

This reply wasn't needed as I admitted to this. It's just that she has been shown and portrayed as a near peer to him in strength before. But mostly he has been portrayed as decisively stronger. To be honest, it doesn't matter if Kal is stronger. WW has sufficient strength to hurt or stun him is all that matters. This along with her skill and lasso gives her a chance in any fight against Superman.

Then you don't understand physics. With 100tons of force someone can throw a rock faster than a bullet. If two forces meet in opposition and one force is 100tons more than the other then the stronger force is going to accelerate the weaker one greater than bullet speed. Thus it would appear as if the weaker one is a rag doll. Also applying 1lb of force more than what a being's durability can take will crush them. These characters weight about 200lb. So a 100ton strength advantage can be seen as significant.

You seem to talk about instances where Superman was fighting dumb. What about WW? She too was fighting dumb. Both were. You post examples of Kal owning her in other instances but fail to see that she was fighting dumb. She clearly forgot her awesome MA skill and ftl reflex speed. She definitely has the speed and skill necessarily to avoid one his attacks. She has great countering abilities. You can't sit here and tell me that it is close to impossible or highly unlikely that Diana can't block or evade one of his attacks. If both fought smart then Diana still has great winning chances because of the lasso. A stunned hit into a lasso tie wins it for her everytime.

Only if you think it is nigh hard for her to block or evade one of his attacks. If that is the case then yeah she'd need luck to win. Hell the Aegis shield automatically would stalemate him.

Originally posted by h1a8
Sorry.

It's ok, sorry if it seemed harh or hostile. Wasn't meant to be, but looking at it again, it could've been taken that way.

Originally posted by h1a8
That's all she needs to prove that she can move and respond at ftl speeds. Thus she can fight at ftl speeds.

I'm not seeing anything to indicate she could speedblitz at even near-lightspeed, let alone FTL, and can't recall any examples of her having FTL speed. The reflexes thing isn't the best argument, as skill can be a factor.

Originally posted by h1a8
Is Karate Kid (Val) powerful?

Nuh uh.

Originally posted by h1a8
Why?

'Cuz he has no powers, last I checked.

Originally posted by h1a8
My definition is not only the correct one--

Nuh uh.

Originally posted by h1a8
--but I believe it is the one of Majority.

You wanna do a poll to decide this?

Originally posted by h1a8
Otherwise, what is the relevance of talking about being more powerful when it has nothing to do with winning power or ability to force an outcome? It's just stupid and wasteful talk then. Think about it.

If skill=power then why aren't characters like Batman considered superhuman? Do you think Spider-Man's more powerful than Rhino? Spidey's a whole lot more skilled and effective. But who do you think is more powerful?

The relevance for talking about power is to find-out who's more powerful, not who's more effective/formidable. Skill can and has compensated for a lack of power to varying degrees, but it doesn't make you powerful. I'm a lot more skilled than the average person at fighting, and have beaten guys bigger and stronger than me in street fights, but does that make me more powerful than them? No, if we did some weight lifting contest or a contest of strength, I'd get my ass kicked. If you want someone to help you move heavy stuff, they'd be better picks before me. But it doesn't mean they'd win. However, if you erased all my training and experience, I'm sure I'd get my ass kicked in rematches. Skill does NOT equal power. It equals skill.

Originally posted by h1a8
Outmaneuvering and leverage vs. overpowering is two different things. You have to be in the vicinity of someone's strength just to move them against their will. Batman can't move Superman against Kal's will no matter how skilled he is. Skill will help (for leverage) but you definitely have to at least be in their strength vicinity.

I still don't think you really know what you're talking about when it comes to grappling. Problem is though, you're either intently using a strawman or you're completely missing one of the points I made. The whole her having grappling skill isn't the part. How powerful was that Daxamite, actually? How much sunlight did she have for us to know whether she really was powerful or not? I've seen it brought-up that it was questionable how powerful she was, and unless she did stuff that I'm unaware of, you're assuming she's really powerful just because of her heritage. What I'd seen of Wonder Woman even back then wouldn't make me think she was even close to on par with Superman.

Originally posted by h1a8
This reply wasn't needed as I admitted to this. It's just that she has been shown and portrayed as a near peer to him in strength before. But mostly he has been portrayed as decisively stronger. To be honest, it doesn't matter if Kal is stronger. WW has sufficient strength to hurt or stun him is all that matters. This along with her skill and lasso gives her a chance in any fight against Superman.

I do feel it's needed, BECAUSE she only has a chance when he holds back. Her being shown as a peer is only because he holds back. Even when holding back, he's still stronger, so her skill and equipment help compensate. When he's not? Well, it's just not good for her at all.

Take for example the SACRIFICE fight. When she snuck-up behind him and bashed his ears with her bracelets? Think about that. That was a sucker-"punch"(quotes since it wasn't a punch), with the force enhanced by being focused on some rather durable metal bracelets, and on a vulnerable area. But all she could do was stun him. She failed to knock him out. What does that say about her compared to him? If Superman did the equivalent, do you think she'd still be conscious?

Originally posted by h1a8
Then you don't understand physics. With 100tons of force someone can throw a rock faster than a bullet. If two forces meet in opposition and one force is 100tons more than the other then the stronger force is going to accelerate the weaker one greater than bullet speed. Thus it would appear as if the weaker one is a rag doll. Also applying 1lb of force more than what a being's durability can take will crush them. These characters weight about 200lb. So a 100ton strength advantage can be seen as significant.

I'm not a physicist, but I do understand basic physics. You don't seem to understand sheer scale. At the level of strength she has, I don't think a thousand tons strength difference will be noticeable. It's like a mountain. Do you think you'd notice the difference between 1,000 feet and 1,001 feet?

Originally posted by h1a8
You seem to talk about instances where Superman was fighting dumb. What about WW? She too was fighting dumb. Both were. You post examples of Kal owning her in other instances but fail to see that she was fighting dumb. She clearly forgot her awesome MA skill and ftl reflex speed. She definitely has the speed and skill necessarily to avoid one his attacks. She has great countering abilities. You can't sit here and tell me that it is close to impossible or highly unlikely that Diana can't block or evade one of his attacks. If both fought smart then Diana still has great winning chances because of the lasso. A stunned hit into a lasso tie wins it for her everytime.

Or, maybe you're overrating her speed by a LOT? He's already shown to be faster than her, ranging from noticeably to MUCH, including him being casual about it. She really doesn't have a chance without luck if he's fighting intelligently and going all-out. Hell, during FINAL CRISIS we see him take her out by accident with his heat vision.

Originally posted by h1a8
Only if you think it is nigh hard for her to block or evade one of his attacks. If that is the case then yeah she'd need luck to win. Hell the Aegis shield automatically would stalemate him.

It'd be very hard for her to deal with his attacks if he's fighting intelligently and going all-out. He's faster than her(probably by a LOT), he's more versatile, and he can multi-task with his powers. We already saw him rushing her at super speed while firing off blasts of heat vision and she couldn't do anything to stop him but desperately deflect the blasts. She was kept busy and couldn't stop him from grabbing her by the throat and dragging her into space. And he could've fought even more effectively using heat vision.

If he knew she was Wonder Woman instead of Doomsday, and wanted to end it quick instead of inducing suffering, she would've been killed as soon as they got near the Sun. He would've just thrown her in before she could try anything.

I know this is Superwoman, not Wonder Woman, and I dunno what the skill difference is between the two, and yes, psychological warfare came into play. But what does it say about Wonder Woman if her counter-part gets owned like she does here?

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Teams/CSA%20Trinity/Trinity013-03.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Teams/CSA%20Trinity/Trinity013-04.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Teams/CSA%20Trinity/Trinity013-06.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Teams/CSA%20Trinity/Trinity013-08.jpg

Superwoman might as well have not even been there. Her skill can't overcome the strength, speed and durability advantage if he's competent and going all-out when he's pretty skilled himself.

Originally posted by Delta1938

I'm not seeing anything to indicate she could speedblitz at even near-lightspeed, let alone FTL, and can't recall any examples of her having FTL speed. The reflexes thing isn't the best argument, as skill can be a factor.

Fighting at ftl speeds doesn't mean to blitz at ftl speeds. It simply means to be able to maneuver and respond at ftl speeds. It's nigh impossible to blitz WW if you are not flash.



Again you didn't answer my question but rather are using circular reasoning. What is the relevance in discussing who's more powerful when it has nothing to do with winning? I could care less if X is more powerful than Y, as long as Y wins a majority is all I care.



There is no such thing as how much sunlight she got since these characters never existed and these things never happened. Let's avoid making stuff up and go by writer's intentions. By default a character is not handicapped or is operating at normal/average capacity in a comic unless the writer states that they are not. So by default the Daxamite was at average levels.



This is irrelevant since WW has the capacity to block or dodge a Superman attack. She can then counter with a nerve strike and lasso him ftw. She may not be able to do this all the time but she can for a majority of the time when fighting at her best.

You don't understand. Opposite but equal forces cancel out. But a greater force acting against a weaker force is equivalent to the difference in these forces acting on an object not using any force whatsoever. So if X has 1000 tons of force and Y has 1100 tons of force then this is equivalent to Y using 100tons of force against an object not applying a force at all. With the extra 100 tons of force Y will sling X around like a rag doll with ease.

How fast can you push something with 100 tons of force? Pretty fast!
Now if I had 1100 tons of force pushing against your 1000 tons of force then guess with what force I'm going to push you with? That's right a 100 tons of force. I will send you flying like an insect with incredible speed.


He may be faster than her but not faster than what she can respond to defensively. Again she has ftl movement in her limbs and torso as well as the reflexes to go with it. And you should stop lowballing WW. She has shown ftl movement and reflexes countless times to be able to avoid Superman's attacks. You can create a poll of "Can WW possibly block or dodge a Superman's attack?" You will get an overwhelming vote for yes. Again this is appealing to the Majority but sometimes that is all we have. Because the alternative is you lowballing WW and using instances where she isn't using her best abilities against Clark as she has shown before.


She is plenty fast enough to counter one of his punch attacks with a nerve strike. Plus she can send the HV back at him, harming himself. You act like she would be a statue or something to him. That's crazy.

Originally posted by h1a8
Fighting at ftl speeds doesn't mean to blitz at ftl speeds. It simply means to be able to maneuver and respond at ftl speeds. It's nigh impossible to blitz WW if you are not flash.

She wasn't able to accomplish shit against Superman on more than one occasion. He's much faster than her.

Originally posted by h1a8
Again you didn't answer my question but rather are using circular reasoning. What is the relevance in discussing who's more powerful when it has nothing to do with winning? I could care less if X is more powerful than Y, as long as Y wins a majority is all I care.

I thought the questions I asked would answer your question for you. The relevance is to find-out who's more powerful, not more formidable, not more skilled, but more powerful. And that's that. If it were a "Who would win?" debate then it would've been who would win, not who's more powerful.

Originally posted by h1a8
There is no such thing as how much sunlight she got since these characters never existed and these things never happened. Let's avoid making stuff up and go by writer's intentions. By default a character is not handicapped or is operating at normal/average capacity in a comic unless the writer states that they are not. So by default the Daxamite was at average levels.

If you really think this is an average Daxamite, then Daxamites aren't that great. Lar Gand looked inferior(once VASTLY) to Superman on 3 different occasions. So, using this chick isn't exactly an impressive showing for Wonder Woman to say she's comparable to Superman.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is irrelevant since WW has the capacity to block or dodge a Superman attack. She can then counter with a nerve strike and lasso him ftw. She may not be able to do this all the time but she can for a majority of the time when fighting at her best.

Yeah, that's why she's countering him here.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/A%20LEAGUE%20OF%20ONE/JLA-ALeagueOfOnepg072.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/A%20LEAGUE%20OF%20ONE/JLA-ALeagueOfOnepg073.jpg

Whoops, nope, she couldn't. In fact she said she knew she couldn't beat him. Well she must here--

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/WW%20V2%20219/P00005.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/WW%20V2%20219/P00006.jpg

--er nope not here either. Sure barely blocked the heat vision, and couldn't counter when he actually got to her.

Originally posted by h1a8
You don't understand. Opposite but equal forces cancel out. But a greater force acting against a weaker force is equivalent to the difference in these forces acting on an object not using any force whatsoever. So if X has 1000 tons of force and Y has 1100 tons of force then this is equivalent to Y using 100tons of force against an object not applying a force at all. With the extra 100 tons of force Y will sling X around like a rag doll with ease.

How fast can you push something with 100 tons of force? Pretty fast!
Now if I had 1100 tons of force pushing against your 1000 tons of force then guess with what force I'm going to push you with? That's right a 100 tons of force. I will send you flying like an insect with incredible speed.

Did the scale point go right over your head? I guess it did. If you're going to scale it down to that, it's more like Wonder Woman's 250 tons to Superman's 1,500.

Originally posted by h1a8
He may be faster than her but not faster than what she can respond to defensively. Again she has ftl movement in her limbs and torso as well as the reflexes to go with it. And you should stop lowballing WW. She has shown ftl movement and reflexes countless times to be able to avoid Superman's attacks. You can create a poll of "Can WW possibly block or dodge a Superman's attack?" You will get an overwhelming vote for yes. Again this is appealing to the Majority but sometimes that is all we have. Because the alternative is you lowballing WW and using instances where she isn't using her best abilities against Clark as she has shown before.

She is plenty fast enough to counter one of his punch attacks with a nerve strike. Plus she can send the HV back at him, harming himself. You act like she would be a statue or something to him. That's crazy.

She couldn't defend against him in A LEAGUE OF ONE, she had to sucker-kick him and attack while he was still confused. She barely was able to block the heat vision attack and it wasn't even a heat vision speedblitz like he's done before, and she couldn't counter when he closed the gap and got physical. Oh yeah, she couldn't react here, either.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/SUPERMAN%20V2%20211/P00017.jpg

Also, his feats of speed are so far above her reflex feats that yes, he can speedblitz her if he wants.

Originally posted by Delta1938
She wasn't able to accomplish shit against Superman on more than one occasion. He's much faster than her.



I thought the questions I asked would answer your question for you. The relevance is to find-out who's more powerful, not more formidable, not more skilled, but more powerful. And that's that. If it were a "Who would win?" debate then it would've been who would win, not who's more powerful.


He's not combat fast enough to make attacks where she can't respond unless you are using low showings for her.

You don't understand. It's about the spirit of the question. We can ask who is more green Savage Hulk or WWH? Who cares if it has nothing to do with what we really want to know? Ask anyone. Being more powerful is very relevant in winning power, otherwise it is a wasteful thing to talk about. It would have no spirit of comic debating in it whatsoever.
Clearly not shown inferior in strength but prehaps in overall formidable-ness.


He countered her because she attacked first because Superman wasn't trying to fight her. If he attacks first then she can counter with a pressure point hit. It goes both ways.

She could have easily kicked him as he was blitzing forward or sent those beams back at him. You still ignoring my points lol. Remember I said she can send the beams back at him?

Doesn't matter since she is able to hurt or stun him with her attacks.
Again with the lowballing. She wasn't prepared to defend and we actually know she has ftl movement and reflexes, unless you want to argue that everytime Superman attacked her when she was fully aware that it was well above FTL speeds. If that is the case then I concede and will happily take it
because I love Superman so much.

Uh, how is that 'not defending against him' when she landed all the hits?




That was specifically a heat vision speedblitz, it was noted he was using his super speed. He did get close and had the edge then, but after she broke free and they got back to Earth, she was able to regain the initiative and landed several powerful blows, he broke her wrist, she landed a kick so hard that he stayed down in the impact site long enough for her to fix it and get enough lead to get to Max first, and then, oh yea, WW cut his throat and won the fight.



I take it you have not read the entire fight? Where she comes back, hits him, they go back and forth, and he is unable to get past her, which is his entire objective, until an outside distraction, civilians in danger, makes her peel off.


I notice all of your arguments rely on taking one bit of a fight out of context and ignoring the bits where she fought back immediately after.




Tried and failed.

Btw, her reflex feats include taking down Zoom, and Wally West on multiple occasions, and are specifically noted to be faster than Superman's. No-one except Flash has higher.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Instatly took her to Limbo, and then sent several demons to attack Widow but she killed them with her guns. Magik then tried to cast a spell, but Widow jumped her before she could finish. She then started to pound on Magik, and then she summons 1000 demons, but Widow points a gun to her head and orders to take her back to the real world. She does. Magik is on the ground bloody and Widow turns her back and says "whose next?" and starts to leave. Magik then stabs her in the back with the Soulsword and then she mentioned it had to be a game to her or she would be dead (Widow). If Widow didnt turn her back and truely finished it she would have won.

Magik never took demon form, but really she jobbed. There is no reason for Widow to even give Magik pause.

In that book Thing beat Namor underwater

Galacta. Sorry couldn't think of anyone else.

Originally posted by Q99
Uh, how is that 'not defending against him' when she landed all the hits?




That was specifically a heat vision speedblitz, it was noted he was using his super speed. He did get close and had the edge then, but after she broke free and they got back to Earth, she was able to regain the initiative and landed several powerful blows, he broke her wrist, she landed a kick so hard that he stayed down in the impact site long enough for her to fix it and get enough lead to get to Max first, and then, oh yea, WW cut his throat and won the fight.



I take it you have not read the entire fight? Where she comes back, hits him, they go back and forth, and he is unable to get past her, which is his entire objective, until an outside distraction, civilians in danger, makes her peel off.


I notice all of your arguments rely on taking one bit of a fight out of context and ignoring the bits where she fought back immediately after.




Tried and failed.

Btw, her reflex feats include taking down Zoom, and Wally West on multiple occasions, and are specifically noted to be faster than Superman's. No-one except Flash has higher.


She is just clueless.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Must be below Trans.Nova (Frankie Raye)? Didn't she blow up a star w/o really trying?

If not her, then Surfer turns himself into a woman ftw.

Any female from these houses;
Lensherr
El
Odin/Odinson
Summers
Grey
Howlett
Akaba
Abn Nur
Blood
Curry
Parker
Osbourne
Cage
Rand
Banner
Stark
Rogers
Fury
Wayne
Rayner
Queen
Garrick
West
Allen
Prince
Stone
Logan...

Thor

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Jenny Quantum : Most definitely deserves the title .

Hope Summers : Far too much hyperbole , very few feats . No surprise there , since she's got "teh phoenix connection" .

Scarlet Witch : Never really was that powerful . Her uber HOM feats came from the Life-Force amp .

Sue Richards : Apart from being the Celestials' kryptonite , hasn't done anything of significance that would put her even high-herald tier . I generally don't qualify phoenix as part of anyones power set. It's clearly its own entity that empowers others. It would be like saying that Strange nearly beat World War Hulk w/ his powers as sorcerer supreme while in reality it was the power of him being possessed by a zomling. So I generally don't include any Phoenix host in a higher tier than what they are capable of on their own simply because it isn't their power.

No typical order

Meggan
Tailsman
Classic Binary
Snowbird
Jenny Quantum
Sersi

Originally posted by nwg202
marvel: Hope, Magik, Wanda, Meggan, Binary, Photon, Talisman, Snowbird, Sersi, maybe danger and rouge...( she has owned the avengers a couple of times)

dc: WW, Enchantress, Zatana ( a bit of a glass canon though), Supre girl, raven, Maxima, Black Alice, Black mary marvel, jenny q , engineer

pretty sure im missing a couple..

You forgot to add Barda to the list.

I dont see anyone mentioning she-hulk?

Originally posted by Firefly218
I dont see anyone mentioning she-hulk?

Well, yea, she's really not one of the most powerful.

Thor should be on the list IMO

No brainer... Squirrel Girl

OP said below trans, so Squirrel Girl is out.

She'd be the easy choice otherwise.

Originally posted by Mindship
Nova (Frankie Raye)? Didn't she blow up a star w/o really trying?

If not her, then Surfer turns himself into a woman ftw.
Surfer has already become a woman when he merged with alicia masters.

Originally posted by Uriel005
I generally don't qualify phoenix as part of anyones power set. It's clearly its own entity that empowers others. It would be like saying that Strange nearly beat World War Hulk w/ his powers as sorcerer supreme while in reality it was the power of him being possessed by a zomling. So I generally don't include any Phoenix host in a higher tier than what they are capable of on their own simply because it isn't their power.
Clearly, you need to attend a couple of language courses in basic English...

Originally posted by abhilegend
Surfer has already become a woman when he merged with alicia masters. After snow, this should not surprise me.

Originally posted by Mindship
After snow, this should not surprise me.
It was before that.

Rachel Summers
An enraged She Hulk-Rulk

She-Hulk-Rulk?

Pre-Crisis Supergirl?

She staggered the Anti-Monitor.

Originally posted by abhilegend
She-Hulk-Rulk?


Carver typed that while phapping off to his favorite Rulkette/Shulkie lesho-on-lesho fantasy. No wonder it came out a bit wrong...

Originally posted by abhilegend
It was before that. And 'he' was still bald!

Btw, thanks for the scan. Couldn't find one in google images.

But getting back to Nova-Raye: didn't she 'accidently' blow up a star?

It wasn't an accident. She made it go nova and the resultant black hole nearly killed both her and surfer.

Originally posted by StyleTime
OP said below trans, so Squirrel Girl is out.

She'd be the easy choice otherwise.

Wanda