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Who wins? No bfring.

I am giving this to Surfer 7/10

I really don't know. I think a CISless Surfer would be a nightmare for anyone.

IMO, CISLESS and Bloodlust Surfer would edge out Thor because he got a tad more versatility overtall than Thor.

For this match, I say it's split.

Surfer

Surfer.

His better reflexes will edge it for him.

I'll have to say Surfer about 7/10 as well. I would imagine without cis his cosmic awareness wouldn't allow him get touched that often, and he should be able to match and exceed Thor's exotic attacks with ones of his own.

Let's not forget Thor's other powers.

For the sake of this thread, Thor gets to use his teleportation like a champ.

He also gets to isolate from power-source. I think he has some time travel and other weird stuff that might throw Surfer a curve ball.

Plus, he definitely is more of a warrior than Surfer is.

Split.

Surfer.

Big speed difference.

Thor 6/10.

Split

You made this after I made hulk vs thor cisless already but anyways its a split imo. Or edge to surfer.

Surfer 10/10

Surfer would use his top speed, intangibility, black holes, board from behind tricks, etc.

Thor 10/10

Magic is superior

Surfer 5.5/10 .

Surfer. Solid majority.

Thor 5/10

Surfer's a little too versatile imo. Surfer wins.

I would like to see the fight. I would like to see them both break out their "weirdest" stuff, with no CIS.

It seems like everyone here is arguing CIS-less Surfer vs CIS-ON Thor. Maybe we're all forgetting Thor has some exotic stuff up his sleeve also. My bet is on Thor for a solid majority.

Surfer

Maybe we can start listing some of the exotic, out of the norm attacks for both as a comparison?

For SS I've heard/seen the board trapping/phantom zone type thing for instance, and for Thor I've heard about him summoning "winds from a 1000 worlds" or something along those lines?

I think this would at least help me see who would be more or less the more unpredictable one for the fight, and possibly the winner due to it...

Surfer has done basically anything you can think of from creating clones of himself, black holes, worm holes, becoming intangible, telepath, teleporting, going back in time, turning into snow, snatching people essence out of their bodies, and the list goes on. I really can't see Thor standing up to a CISLESS Surfer but some people are giving decent arguments. A black hole to the brain should kill Thor and since Surfer is much faster, he should be able to get the first, second, and third attack off to Thor 1 attack.

Surfer wins

Originally posted by carver9
A black hole to the brain should kill
Thor

I love it when people say SS can make a black hole in someone's head.

Originally posted by carver9


and since Surfer is much faster, he should be able to get the first, second, and third attack off to Thor 1 attack.

This coming from the same guy who never thinks Superman's HUGE speed advantage over the Hulk would do anything. You change your arguments depending on which character you like better

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I love it when people say SS can make a black hole in someone's head.



This coming from the same guy who never thinks Superman's HUGE speed advantage over the Hulk would do anything. You change your arguments depending on which character you like better

Show me where I said Superman wouldn't get the first, second, or third hit on Hulk.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris

This coming from the same guy who never thinks Superman's HUGE speed advantage over the Hulk would do anything. You change your arguments depending on which character you like better

In Carver's defense, he never said Superman wouldn't be able to get off multiple hits on Hulk before Hulk lands anything. In-fact, he says that all the time.





It's still wrong however. Because it means somehow Hulk is fast enough to get a hit off period.

surfer.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I love it when people say SS can make a black hole in someone's head.

I used to think that was unreasonable, but I've lately been reconsidering. We know he can make black holes. We know he's considered making them in someone's eyes before. He thus has demonstrated both the ability and imagination. CIS-off, I don't see why he wouldn't. The only question is whether or not he has the precision, since he's only used black holes on panel as a big area of effect.

So, it's not certain, but it's not absurd, imo.

THREAD: Surfer. They've both got a nigh-immeasurable arsenal of esoterics as well as resistances to esoterics. But as equal as they are, Surfer has a ridiculous speed advantage.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
I used to think that was unreasonable, but I've lately been reconsidering. We know he can make black holes. We know he's considered making them in someone's eyes before. He thus has demonstrated both the ability and imagination. CIS-off, I don't see why he wouldn't. The only question is whether or not he has the precision, since he's only used black holes on panel as a big area of effect.

So, it's not certain, but it's not absurd, imo.



If it was someone with normal "human" durability, then I would agree, he COULD do it, assuming he has the precision. But I highly doubt that, even assuming he has that level of precision, that he could do it to someone with Thor's durability. AND, even assuming he has the precision and power to make a black hole inside someone with Thor's durability....You also have to assume Thor isn't moving the entire time SS is doing that to him.

Because I'm assuming he's making the black hole in the SPACE Thor's head is currently occupying in that time (as Black Holes are holes in SPACE ITSELF, not in someone's actual head), so if Thor moves, the black hole still forms in the previous position his head was occupying when SS started forming the black hole.

There is no evidence at all that the SS could overcome all of those variables to do that.

Originally posted by carver9
Show me where I said Superman wouldn't get the first, second, or third hit on Hulk.

The combat speed gap between Superman and the Hulk is almost infinitely worse than it is between SS and Thor.

I recall you claiming WBH could thunderclap Superman as soon as a fight started, and I said the Hulk wouldn't even have time to raise his arms before Superman punched him a ridiculous number of times and you disagreed. In fact, in many DC vs Marvel fights, you have ignored, or flat out denied that the superior speed of the DC character would come into play. I'm not going to show you where you said, because I have better things to do than to go through all your old posts, but I will keep an eye out for when you do it again (because I'm sure you will) and I'll point this conversation out when you do....But regardless, that's off topic anyway.

That is a nice one for Surfer.

Does anyone have a scan or know about the "winds from a 1000 world's" thing for Thor? I think it was during the whole fight with the Skrull gods maybe...

Anyone have the scan of Surfer saying that ?

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
If it was someone with normal "human" durability, then I would agree, he COULD do it, assuming he has the precision. But I highly doubt that, even assuming he has that level of precision, that he could do it to someone with Thor's durability. AND, even assuming he has the precision and power to make a black hole inside someone with Thor's durability....You also have to assume Thor isn't moving the entire time SS is doing that to him.

Because I'm assuming he's making the black hole in the SPACE Thor's head is currently occupying in that time (as Black Holes are holes in SPACE ITSELF, not in someone's actual head), so if Thor moves, the black hole still forms in the previous position his head was occupying when SS started forming the black hole.

There is no evidence at all that the SS could overcome all of those variables to do that.

Durability doesn't matter against a singularity since the gravitational forces at the event horizon are literally infinite. However when you have someone like Thor who has done a lot of weird stuff that defies the laws of physics and affected reality warpers (for example he recently reached into the field created by the Unbinding Stone of Oshemar(sp?) and shut it off despite the fact that it was destroying reality), Thor could probably defend himself.

I agree that Thor has enough hax to compete with Surfer's exotic powers, but I give the nod to Surfer mainly because of his speed, also the fact that he can time travel at will where Thor lost that ability a long time ago.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
If it was someone with normal "human" durability, then I would agree, he COULD do it, assuming he has the precision. But I highly doubt that, even assuming he has that level of precision, that he could do it to someone with Thor's durability. AND, even assuming he has the precision and power to make a black hole inside someone with Thor's durability....You also have to assume Thor isn't moving the entire time SS is doing that to him.

What does durability has to do with it? You see , therefore its clear that Surfer is somehow using his own power cosmic as a substitute for mass for the singularity, not the material of whatever happens to be there. He does not, in other words, need to use Thor's material to make it. Thus, creating the singularity in any free space in Thor's brain (say, the space between molecules) would not require physically harming Thor in any way. Once created, it could be expanded to the extent of Surfer's power, which most people assume is capable of harming Thor.

Maybe you think Thor's brain is so durable that it will not be impaired by having a black hole expanded inside of it, but creating the thing in the first place should not be hampered by any level of durability.


As for what Thor will be doing at the time, this is where Surfer's
speed advantage comes in handy.

ABOUT THE POINT IN SPACE ARGUMENT:

Well, seeing as Surfer's black holes are not created the conventional way using lots of mass (see page 1 of PHYSICS PHYSICS PHYSICS), but an unconventional ways using PC, it may be assumed that the initial singularity will have virtually no mass to begin with. If so, it will likely be drawn to whatever masses are nearest to it by the various laws of attraction. It is not inconceivable that, indeed, it would move with Thor, should Thor have time to move.

Granted, I'm kind of cape-towning, since the mechanisms by which Surfer does anything he does are poorly understood.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
What does durability has to do with it? You see , therefore its clear that Surfer is somehow using his own power cosmic as a substitute for mass for the singularity, not the material of whatever happens to be there. He doesn not, in other words, need to use Thor's material to make it. Thus, creating the singularity in any free space in Thor's brain (say, the space between molecules) would not require physically harming Thor in any way. Once created, it could be expanded to the extent of Surfer's power, which most people assume is capable of harming Thor.

Maybe you think Thor's brain is so durable that it will not be impaired by having a black hole expanded inside of it, but creating the thing in the first place should not be hampered by any level of durability.

Because I'm assuming he's making the black hole in the SPACE Thor's head is currently occupying in that time (as Black Holes are holes in SPACE ITSELF, not in someone's actual head), so if Thor moves, the black hole still forms in the previous position his head was occupying when SS started forming the black hole.

As for what Thor will be doing at the time, this is where Surfer's speed advantage comes in handy.

Physics in comics books rarely makes sense. My point isn't about Thor's brain itself. Look at what Magneto's shields have blocked in the past. I'm not really sure how Thor's "durability" works, but I've seen Superman's described in the past as a sort of forcefield that surrounds his body. I highly doubt someone could create a black hole through that forcefield that surrounds Superman's body. Can I prove that? No. My point is simply that no one who says the SS can make it there, can prove that he could either, so it's really a ridiculous claim to make.

Adding to my above point, a GL's durability also has to do with a "forcefield" around their body (obviously). These "shields" can block telepathy inside the field (though not always), and magical affects from doing anything to the GL's human (or alien whatever) body INSIDE the shield. So the "durability" does have a lot to do with it, assuming Thor's works the same way. Maybe someone who knows Thor better than me could expand on how his durability works.

Originally posted by Endless Mike


I agree that Thor has enough hax to compete with Surfer's exotic powers, but I give the nod to Surfer mainly because of his speed, also the fact that he can time travel at will where Thor lost that ability a long time ago.

Fair enough. The speed is a huge factor here, I'll agree with that.

I'd say Surfer, mainly because with CIS off for both it'd be easier for Surfer to simply separate Thor from Mjolnir or render him unable to wield it by restraining/encasing Thor's hands. Sure, Thor could still mentally command Mjolnir's movements remotely, but a big part of his offense would be neutered.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
I'd say Surfer, mainly because with CIS off for both it'd be easier for Surfer to simply separate Thor from Mjolnir or render him unable to wield it by restraining/encasing Thor's hands. Sure, Thor could still mentally command Mjolnir's movements remotely, but a big part of his offense would be neutered.

That's kind of why I'm edging towards surfer. His shields won't last long against Thor but maybe long enough to get hits in or cause problems. Encasing Thor's hands would be a safer bet than encasing Mjolnir though since Thor under these stips would just teleport it back to his hand instead of breaking the forcefields. But surfer striking in those small moments of vulnerability would begin to wear Thor down. Of course Thor has a good chance at winning also. It's really close.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
The combat speed gap between Superman and the Hulk is almost infinitely worse than it is between SS and Thor.

I recall you claiming WBH could thunderclap Superman as soon as a fight started, and I said the Hulk wouldn't even have time to raise his arms before Superman punched him a ridiculous number of times and you disagreed. In fact, in many DC vs Marvel fights, you have ignored, or flat out denied that the superior speed of the DC character would come into play. I'm not going to show you where you said, because I have better things to do than to go through all your old posts, but I will keep an eye out for when you do it again (because I'm sure you will) and I'll point this conversation out when you do....But regardless, that's off topic anyway.

When you learn what CIS mean, holla at me. That's like me saying Surfer beats Superman 10/10 due to weakness exploiting when 90% of the time, he probably wouldn't even resort to this method. That's like me saying Thor beats Prime 10/10 via bfring or soul sucking. Shut the h*** up if you dont know these rules and if you do know them, be consistent about it.

Originally posted by carver9
When you learn what CIS mean, holla at me. That's like me saying Surfer beats Superman 10/10 due to weakness exploiting when 90% of the time, he probably wouldn't even resort to this method. That's like me saying Thor beats Prime 10/10 via bfring or soul sucking. Shut the h*** up if you dont know these rules and if you do know them, be consistent about it.

First, SS has to know about his weaknesses. Don't give me that bulls*** cosmic awareness argument either. Second, kryptonite from other universes won't affect him anyways, so if the SS makes any, it won't do anything to Superman. Red sunlight might give him an edge, if he could find out about it, but even that is far from a guaranteed win for the SS.

Onto Prime: If you're saying SS gets 3 shots in on Thor before Thor gets one, what do you think Prime, who's combat speed is multiple times faster than the SS, going to do? Also, considering he's literally punched his way out of the phantom zone, where exactly is he going to BFR him to?

You can't even troll right.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
My point is simply that no one who says the SS can make it there, can prove that he could either, so it's really a ridiculous claim to make.

Superman has a personal forcefield. Thor does not. Not as far as I know, anyway. I see no reason why a point in space that Thor happens to be passing through would be privileged by the full measure of his durability. Do things not enter his body all the time? Does he not draw a lung full of air to speak? A point of space within his body that is not presently occupied by any particular body part should be fair game.

Of course physics work strangely in comics (and often not at all). OF course I can't prove that an ordinary point in space IS an ordinary point in space once Thor parks his big norse body around it. I can't prove that Marvel Earth even has gravity and not some foreign concept called DHFKLHNGIOB!!! that just happens to resemble gravity too closely for anyone to have noticed. I kinda feel like I shouldn't have to.

I kinda feel like we should assume basic physical laws until shown otherwise.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Superman has a personal forcefield. Thor does not. Not as far as I know, anyway. I see no reason why a point in space that Thor happens to be passing through would be privileged by the full measure of his durability. Do things not enter his body all the time? Does he not draw a lung full of air to speak? A point of space within his body that is not presently occupied by any particular body part should be fair game.

Of course physics work strangely in comics (and often not at all). OF course I can't prove that an ordinary point in space IS an ordinary point in space once Thor parks his big norse body around it. I can't prove that Marvel Earth even has gravity and not some foreign concept called DHFKLHNGIOB!!! that just happens to resemble gravity too closely for anyone to have noticed. I kinda feel like I shouldn't have to.

I kinda feel like we should assume basic physical laws until shown otherwise. Thor can talk in space so apparently he doesn't need air to speak

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Superman has a personal forcefield. Thor does not. Not as far as I know, anyway. I see no reason why a point in space that Thor happens to be passing through would be privileged by the full measure of his durability. Do things not enter his body all the time? Does he not draw a lung full of air to speak? A point of space within his body that is not presently occupied by any particular body part should be fair game.

Of course physics work strangely in comics (and often not at all). OF course I can't prove that an ordinary point in space IS an ordinary point in space once Thor parks his big norse body around it. I can't prove that Marvel Earth even has gravity and not some foreign concept called DHFKLHNGIOB!!! that just happens to resemble gravity too closely for anyone to have noticed. I kinda feel like I shouldn't have to.

I kinda feel like we should assume basic physical laws until shown otherwise.

I agree with you that we should assume basic physical laws until shown otherwise. But a norse god who can survive standing inside the sun might affect the space around him in some way. But again, I can't prove it would. And if Thor doesn't have a personal forcefield, like Superman does, then I would be more inclined to agree with you, though not totally.

What are your thoughts about SS making a black hole in someone like Hal Jordan or Superman's brain? Do you agree that forcefields around them could f*** with that ability?

Originally posted by Newjak
Thor can talk in space so apparently he doesn't need air to speak

lol I actually thought about that right after I said it. I hoped no one would notice.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
lol I actually thought about that right after I said it. I hoped no one would notice. Maybe anywhere else but on KMC, here we pick things to the bone

Well, I remember Sersi had to give Thor gills to breathe once. But that was a long time ago. Given how many times Thor has been in space for very extended periods of time since then, I don't think he needs to breathe. But even if you didn't have to breathe in space, sound wouldn't carry anyway. So, again, that's Marvel's physics for you.

I do remember Red Hulk saying he had to hold his breathe in space, and it didn't sound like he could do it for long.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
First, SS has to know about his weaknesses. Don't give me that bulls*** cosmic awareness argument either. Second, kryptonite from other universes won't affect him anyways, so if the SS makes any, it won't do anything to Superman. Red sunlight might give him an edge, if he could find out about it, but even that is far from a guaranteed win for the SS.

Onto Prime: If you're saying SS gets 3 shots in on Thor before Thor gets one, what do you think Prime, who's combat speed is multiple times faster than the SS, going to do? Also, considering he's literally punched his way out of the phantom zone, where exactly is he going to BFR him to?

You can't even troll right.


Why can't I use cosmic awareness when its a part of Surfer and has been shown as an ability on multiples of occasions? So you admit if Superboy Prime didn't use his speed from the Get Go, Thor can beat him 10/10? Glad we agree. So you admit Thor beats Doomsday 10/10? You are learning buddy. Magneto beats Doomsday 10/10 as well via bfr. Let's move it a step further. Surfer beats V&V Despero via bfring him in a black hole...Stardust beats him 10/10 as well (this is fun). GL Cable beats HP Doomsday by tossing him telekinetically in space. Would you like to add to this?

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I agree with you that we should assume basic physical laws until shown otherwise. But a norse god who can survive standing inside the sun might affect the space around him in some way. But again, I can't prove it would. And if Thor doesn't have a personal forcefield, like Superman does, then I would be more inclined to agree with you, though not totally.

What are your thoughts about SS making a black hole in someone like Hal Jordan or Superman's brain? Do you agree that forcefields around them could f*** with that ability?

Lol @ you being a Superman fan. Superman doesn't even have that personal forcefield anymore. That was taken away from him YEARS AGO. Read some comics.

Like I said, the Unbinding Stone feat makes me think Thor can survive a black hole

Originally posted by carver9
Lol @ you being a Superman fan. Superman doesn't even have that personal forcefield anymore. That was taken away from him YEARS AGO. Read some comics.

You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

Originally posted by carver9
When you learn what CIS mean, holla at me. That's like me saying Surfer beats Superman 10/10 due to weakness exploiting when 90% of the time, he probably wouldn't even resort to this method. That's like me saying Thor beats Prime 10/10 via bfring or soul sucking. Shut the h*** up if you dont know these rules and if you do know them, be consistent about it. Hehe! Freakin' Carver.
You are a funny bas*ard!
Do you drink beer?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Durability doesn't matter against a singularity since the gravitational forces at the event horizon are literally infinite. marvel seems to forget real world physics all the time

CISless doesn't mean "tourney mode/make-the-characters-do-whatever-you-want".

Originally posted by Reacting2
marvel seems to forget real world physics all the time

Read the rest of my post