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Who wins ?

Michael

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Michael Do you think the Saint's bullets would kill Michael ?

I could see Michael getting killed, tbh.

Nope, his bullets were unable to affect God on the throne (who had the power to create 1 universe and 2 dimensions), multiversal Michael is stronger

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Nope, his bullets were unable to affect God on the throne (who had the power to create 1 universe and 2 dimensions), multiversal Michael is stronger Michael was affected by Lucifer and Sandolphon's spear which isn't anywhere near as badass as Saint of Killer's bullets. What has Michael resisted specifically that makes you feel so ?

The fact he possesses multiversal power

Beating Thanos is one thing. Michael, that's something else..

You need to be more than a bare minimum universal power to tackle Lucifer or Michael.

Yeah, didn't think about it before, but SoK cannot kill beings who are truly supreme (that's why he had to kill God before he was seated on his throne.) And since Michael houses the literal demiurgic power of God himself, SoK would likely not be able to kill him.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
The fact he possesses multiversal power That didn't stop Sandolphon from beating him. Just because he contains that power doesn't make him invulnerable to far less powerful characters. Case in point.

That was PIS

Originally posted by Endless Mike
That was PIS

It was a cheap shot and a heaven spear.

I can see a weapon of heaven hurting Michael, without discounting it as PIS.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
That was PIS No, it wasn't. Michael wasn't invulnerable. You have nothing to support your case at all.

mike

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, didn't think about it before, but SoK cannot kill beings who are truly supreme (that's why he had to kill God before he was seated on his throne.) And since Michael houses the literal demiurgic power of God himself, SoK would likely not be able to kill him. Michael is clearly not supreme.

*Cough*hesright*cough*...

Their power quickly faded as soon as Presence abandoned the DCU. Even Lucifer's multiverse was fading, despite being located outside of creation (Guessing because the power used to create it was still linked to Presence, as the creator of Lucifer and Michael..)

Originally posted by cdtm
*Cough*hesright*cough*...

Their power quickly faded as soon as Presence abandoned the DCU. Even Lucifer's multiverse was fading, despite being located outside of creation (Guessing because the power used to create it was still linked to Presence, as the creator of Lucifer and Michael..) Michael was defeated by Sandolphon well before the Maker exited creation.

Read the series. This is getting awful.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, didn't think about it before, but SoK cannot kill beings who are truly supreme (that's why he had to kill God before he was seated on his throne.) And since Michael houses the literal demiurgic power of God himself, SoK would likely not be able to kill him. That doesn't make any sense.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Michael was defeated by Sandolphon well before the Maker exited creation.

Read the series. This is getting awful.

By a sneak attack. So?

Originally posted by cdtm
By a sneak attack. So? That someone not even 1/10 as powerful as he is can beat him. He's also not invulnerable but the SOK was portrayed as such.

Michael .

Sandy, by the way, was more powerful than an average angel. He could manipulate the demiurgic power to a great extent, which he showed by creating the pocket dimension capable of hiding Michael from everyone for billions of years.

It's sad that this was the week we all realised the Saint wasn't all that.

Guess we are evolving.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Nope, his bullets were unable to affect God on the throne (who had the power to create 1 universe and 2 dimensions), multiversal Michael is stronger Sorry late to the party, but Sok shouldn't have been able to affect a lot of characters in that arc. He became the AOD with his swords converted to guns. Satan never placed his powers outside so he should have been greater than AOD and shouldn't have been able to be killed. The God on his throne had full power but that god fled because of genesis who was his equal. SoK killed Genesis so he should have been able to kill god on his throne as well. Chit didn't make sense. Going by the arc, if SoK can kill angels he should be able to kill Michael because he also killed Satan at full power.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Sandy, by the way, was more powerful than an average angel. He could manipulate the demiurgic power to a great extent, which he showed by creating the pocket dimension capable of hiding Michael from everyone for billions of years. That doesn't mean he was even in the same zip code as Michael in terms of power. Michael just wasn't invulnerable.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That doesn't mean he was even in the same zip code as Michael in terms of power. Michael just wasn't invulnerable.

My point is that being hurt by Sandolphon is nothing to be ashamed of. And seeing as Michael managed to walk to Yggdrasil and take shots from Lucifer before falling, I still think it's wiser to dismiss the spear incident as an uncharacteristically low-showing, or assume that a weapon carried by a powerful reality-warper for a war in heaven is more impressive than meets the eye.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
My point is that being hurt by Sandolphon is nothing to be ashamed of. And seeing as Michael managed to walk to Yggdrasil and take shots from Lucifer before falling, I still think it's wiser to dismiss the spear incident as an uncharacteristically low-showing, or assume that a weapon carried by a powerful reality-warper for a war in heaven is more impressive than meets the eye. No, it isn't uncharacteristic. Michael is by far more powerful than he is but not invulnerable to attacks by far less power.

Michael was weakened and yes he fell before Lucifer. Michael also held back during the fight.

Throughout the series angels were formidable but we saw many other demons kill them by the scores. Michael could have beaten Sandy with a gesture but in the end my point is he isn't invulnerable.

Originally posted by quanchi112
he isn't invulnerable.

He's not invulnerable, but you still underestimate his durability.

I just remembered another durability showing. To be clear, Michael is essentially sleeping a foot away from Lucifer at the moment of the blast:

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s446/DreamStuffshare/Lucifer/dura1.jpg
http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s446/DreamStuffshare/Lucifer/dura2.jpg

Tanking that blast in his sleep combined with what he endured during the events that inevitably killed him suggest that he is very durable.

The fact that Sandy could hurt him is a feat for Sandy that I wouldn't expect just any strong guy with any spear to replicate. You really think that's unreasonable?

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
He's not invulnerable, but you still underestimate his durability.

I just remembered another durability showing. To be clear, Michael is essentially sleeping a foot away from Lucifer at the moment of the blast:

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s446/DreamStuffshare/Lucifer/dura1.jpg
http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s446/DreamStuffshare/Lucifer/dura2.jpg

Tanking that blast in his sleep combined with what he endured during the events that inevitably killed him suggest that he is very durable.

The fact that Sandy could hurt him is a feat for Sandy that I wouldn't expect just any strong guy with any spear to replicate. You really think that's unreasonable? I never said Michael's skin was thin as paper I just don't see him surviving a bullet designed to kill any being in his reality save the supreme being when far less has hurt/defeated him.

I wouldn't call being hurt by heaven tech a "low showing" for anyone. That's like saying Spectre being hurt by the Spear or Destiny is some kind of low showing..

Heavenly swords killed everything from gods to demons to other angels, and severely injured various incarnations of Spectre. A sword or spear from heaven would probably take down Juggernaut or high cosmics like Eternity.

A sword or spear from heaven would probably take down Juggernaut or high cosmics like Eternity.


http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m53ldacKLU1rxevt4o1_500.gif


SOK's bullet is pretty much a property of heaven so it would make sense that michael be effected by it..considering he was effected by that spear...it's definitely is plausible.

SOK can kill it's god but not in DC.

Originally posted by lilshogun
SOK can kill it's god but not in DC.
He couldn't even do that. Idiot Preacherverse God wasn't on his throne and thus vulnerable.
http://www.comicvine.com/saint-of-killers/29-10522/saint-of-killers-vs-god-what-the-experts-dont-tell-you/92-414858/
Why idiot Preachervese God leaves most of his power in/on his throne is a question that was never answered.

As to the thread, Michael CRUSHES him.

Originally posted by cdtm
I wouldn't call being hurt by heaven tech a "low showing" for anyone. That's like saying Spectre being hurt by the Spear or Destiny is some kind of low showing..

Heavenly swords killed everything from gods to demons to other angels, and severely injured various incarnations of Spectre. A sword or spear from heaven would probably take down Juggernaut or high cosmics like Eternity. The spear of destiny is another matter altogether but the spear hurting him shows something far less powerful than he is can defeat him. That's not debatable.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The spear of destiny is another matter altogether but the spear hurting him shows something far less powerful than he is can defeat him. That's not debatable.

Name a few characters in comics who has never been hurt by someone or something weaker than them.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The spear of destiny is another matter altogether but the spear hurting him shows something far less powerful than he is can defeat him. That's not debatable.

The angel didn't hurt him. His weapon did, and from behind.

Obviously, given the track record of angelic weapons, they're simply that powerful. As you'd expect, from those that instill god like power in tarot cards.

Originally posted by zopzop
He couldn't even do that. Idiot Preacherverse God wasn't on his throne and thus vulnerable.
http://www.comicvine.com/saint-of-killers/29-10522/saint-of-killers-vs-god-what-the-experts-dont-tell-you/92-414858/
Why idiot Preachervese God leaves most of his power in/on his throne is a question that was never answered.

As to the thread, Michael CRUSHES him.

Then how was he able to kill genesis? who was equal or even greater than the peacherverse god. It was because of genesis that he fled this throne and actually manipulated AOD and Satan to bring about the SOK so that he could kill genesis. If SOK can kill genesis, he can kill his god on his throne. I agree, it's bs, they said that if god got to his throne he would defeat sok, but they forgot that sok already killed someone who was equal to god on his throne. Either way SOK killed angels left and right, Michael is an angel so would lose, unless the preacher god was like the children of MOM who were planetary beings.

Originally posted by Diesldude
Then how was he able to kill genesis? who was equal or even greater than the peacherverse god. It was because of genesis that he fled this throne and actually manipulated AOD and Satan to bring about the SOK so that he could kill genesis. If SOK can kill genesis, he can kill his god on his throne. I agree, it's bs, they said that if god got to his throne he would defeat sok, but they forgot that sok already killed someone who was equal to god on his throne.

Did SoK kill Genesis?

It's been so long since I read Preacher.

Originally posted by Mindset
Did SoK kill Genesis?

It's been so long since I read Preacher. yeah he gunned him down.

Originally posted by Mindset
Did SoK kill Genesis?

It's been so long since I read Preacher.

Yeah, I forgot that too.

I remember stuff I'd rather forget like the meat humping boss hog, but not that.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Name a few characters in comics who has never been hurt by someone or something weaker than them. It usually doesn't happen to this big of a disparity in power levels. Michael was hurt by power not even on the same planet as he was. Originally posted by cdtm
The angel didn't hurt him. His weapon did, and from behind.

Obviously, given the track record of angelic weapons, they're simply that powerful. As you'd expect, from those that instill god like power in tarot cards. Sandolphon used the weapon. It's like saying the swordsman didn't stab him the sword did. So many excuses.

I think they are powerful but nowhere near as powerful as Michael. He could solo them but he held back and isn't invulnerable. That's the point.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It usually doesn't happen to this big of a disparity in power levels.

Sure it does. Hulk got koed by Cap. Surfer got koed by a thrown brick. We dismiss those because we've seen the characters easily take much more. FRom here, my argument can assume either (or a dialectic) of two logical forms:

1) Michael has obviously taken more than an average angel with a spear. His other showings have to count too. He has literally tanked bigger attacks in his sleep.

2) Either Sandolphon or his spear are extremely powerful. Not as powerful as Michael, but powerful enough to realistically hurt someone on his tier under the right circumstances.

We see this all the time in comics too, someone like Cap taking down asignificantly stronger and more durable foe by exploiting and opening with his sheild. Of course, this would mean is extremely powerful in his own right. He only has three showings, really: stabbing Michael (extremely impressive), reality-warping Michael's power into a pocket universe that lasts hidden for billions of years while holding Michael captive (quite impressive), and being backstabbed by Uriel (somewhat unimpressive). Overall, Sandy is a Beast and I don't think a lot of comic book characters would want to turn their back to him with a spear.

Anyway I look at it, "Michael isn't that durable," seems like the least likely explanation. I favor the idea that Sandy is more powerful than we gave him credit for AND this is still just a low showing for MIchael, who we know has better durability from his other fights.


ALSO: sweet sig.

Oh, and because I haven't actually addressed the topic yet:

I think SoK's bullets could hurt Michael, but not every bullet his fired was a kill-shot. If he, say, take off Michael's arm with his first shot, he wont get a second one before Michael erases him from existence. Obviously if Michael shoots first, it's over.

I take Michael nearly every time.

Michael takes this .

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Sure it does. Hulk got koed by Cap. Surfer got koed by a thrown brick. We dismiss those because we've seen the characters easily take much more. FRom here, my argument can assume either (or a dialectic) of two logical forms:

1) Michael has obviously taken more than an average angel with a spear. His other showings have to count too. He has literally tanked bigger attacks in his sleep.

2) Either Sandolphon or his spear are extremely powerful. Not as powerful as Michael, but powerful enough to realistically hurt someone on his tier under the right circumstances.

We see this all the time in comics too, someone like Cap taking down asignificantly stronger and more durable foe by exploiting and opening with his sheild. Of course, this would mean is extremely powerful in his own right. He only has three showings, really: stabbing Michael (extremely impressive), reality-warping Michael's power into a pocket universe that lasts hidden for billions of years while holding Michael captive (quite impressive), and being backstabbed by Uriel (somewhat unimpressive). Overall, Sandy is a Beast and I don't think a lot of comic book characters would want to turn their back to him with a spear.

Anyway I look at it, "Michael isn't that durable," seems like the least likely explanation. I favor the idea that Sandy is more powerful than we gave him credit for AND this is still just a low showing for MIchael, who we know has better durability from his other fights.


ALSO: sweet sig. The difference is Michael's appearances aren't as numerous as either the Surfer or Hulk. Hulk's power levels vary with anger and from what I have been told Surfer pretended to be ko'd by the brick.

A high ranking angel showed he had the power through his weapon to defeat him. Michael was never portrayed as invulnerable. Just because there was an explosion that doesn't override the other showing where he was defeated. You can't discount while and accept the other. Comics are inconsistent the only fair way is to accept them all.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Oh, and because I haven't actually addressed the topic yet:

I think SoK's bullets could hurt Michael, but not every bullet his fired was a kill-shot. If he, say, take off Michael's arm with his first shot, he wont get a second one before Michael erases him from existence. Obviously if Michael shoots first, it's over.

I take Michael nearly every time. Every shot was a kill shot unless it was against an undead opponent. Michael isn't undead therefore it will kill him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Comics are inconsistent the only fair way is to accept them all.

Bold choice. most people seem to think that the fair approach is to throw out showings that are either so low or so high as to be considered incongruous. People usually try to minimize paradoxes. As it is, you could make a claim about Michael's durability that is simultaneously true and false, since the ostensible* gap between his high and low feats is unambiguously wide. But if you're comfortable with nonsense, to each his own, I guess, but I'm saving this quote of your in case it ever seems relevant again in the future.

*Obviously Michael isn't literally invulnerable (no character in comics is), so the only question is how much it takes to hurt him. Admitting that hits that hard doesn't change the fact that SoK never shot anyone with Michael's proven durability.




Quan, I think some part of you knew this may not be true when you typed it. Some part of you thought, "I don't remember every single person SoK ever shot during the whole series, so maybe I shouldn't state this as fact," and did it anyway.

SoK never misses, but on panel evidence has him shotting human's limbs off who then try to surrender or crawl away.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Bold choice. most people seem to think that the fair approach is to throw out showings that are either so low or so high as to be considered incongruous. People usually try to minimize paradoxes. As it is, you could make a claim about Michael's durability that is simultaneously true and false, since the ostensible* gap between his high and low feats is unambiguously wide. But if you're comfortable with nonsense, to each his own, I guess, but I'm saving this quote of your in case it ever seems relevant again in the future.

*Obviously Michael isn't literally invulnerable (no character in comics is), so the only question is how much it takes to hurt him. Admitting that hits that hard doesn't change the fact that SoK never shot anyone with Michael's proven durability.




Quan, I think some part of you knew this may not be true when you typed it. Some part of you thought, "I don't remember every single person SoK ever shot during the whole series, so maybe I shouldn't state this as fact," and did it anyway.

SoK never misses, but on panel evidence has him shotting human's limbs off who then try to surrender or crawl away. Michael didn't have any proven durability. It was up there but Sandy's spear wasn't on the same planet in terms of power so we know for afact far less power than what he is capable of can beat him. His wings also sap his strength.

I haven't read the Preacher for years so it's true I may be not remembering someone surviving as limbs were shot off. I still believe off memory the only one to survive was Cassidy due to him being undead.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Michael didn't have any proven durability.

Except for his three durability showings, which we've discussed. Forget?



Sandy's spear has one feat: hurting Michael. Where do you get off guessing how powerful it was?



This again. This claim isn't supported by anything but one taunt that you take too literally and series of extremely illogical leaps. There is no on panel evidence that and angel's wings are either a weak spot or the repository of most of their power.



http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s446/DreamStuffshare/other/soklive.jpg

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Except for his three durability showings, which we've discussed. Forget?
That just shows he's durable not invulnerable. Like I said comics are inconsistent but we've seen his wings damaged and Lucifer kill him despite being far weaker since the supreme being left creation.

Based off the fact that Michael could have beaten them all with a gesture. The spear was nowhere near his level of power. I don't have to determine it's level of power to rationally know based off the evidence that it paled in comparison to the power Michael wielded.

The statement was very clear. You can choose to ignore it if you want to. I won't.


That doesn't mean those shots weren't fatal that just means the man didn't instantly die not that he wouldn't have died.

Originally posted by quanchi112
t we've seen his wings damaged and Lucifer kill him despite being far weaker since the supreme being left creation.

His wings were only damaged from the trip to Yggdrasil. That's not low showing at all. That he was able to fight at all after that is a durability feat of its own. As to Lucifer being weakened by Yahweh's absence: A) that could apply to Michael too B)it's not long after Yahweh's absence as no one had noticed that Lucifer was weakened yet C) Lucifer clearly got an amp from Fenris' blood, as he went from being completely unconcious to wide-awake and fighting hard as soon as he was mind-controlled.



Can not a man with a gun defeat a small child with a knife with the gesture of pulling the trigger? Of course, this says nothing about the power of the gun or knife, as either would kill a man, given the right opportunity.

We know that Sandy could have been taken out by Michael along with a bunch of nobodies. And we know he didn't want to fight toe-to-toe with Lucifer. But just because he isn't powerful enough to win a fair fight doesn't mean he's not powerful enough to hurt either of them (and, by extension, any number of comparable characters) given the right opportunity.




I don't ignore it, or need to. It doesn't mean much.




The guy was alive and coherent. SoK clearly fired a second shot to finish him off. If you want to claim that he would have still died sometime (an hour? a day? a week?) in the future from the wound, the burden of proof is on you, because he looks to be hanging in there.

Michael wins this fight.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
His wings were only damaged from the trip to Yggdrasil. That's not low showing at all. That he was able to fight at all after that is a durability feat of its own. As to Lucifer being weakened by Yahweh's absence: A) that could apply to Michael too B)it's not long after Yahweh's absence as no one had noticed that Lucifer was weakened yet C) Lucifer clearly got an amp from Fenris' blood, as he went from being completely unconcious to wide-awake and fighting hard as soon as he was mind-controlled.
I never said it was. But another trip inside creation which could weaken him once again further proving the guy isn't invulnerable. Lucifer was weakened when he took on the Titans prior to this so yes he was already weakened. Michael held back while Lucifer did not. Michael's vulnerable body was defeated once again.

Angels throughout the series were able to be killed by nonangelic beings. The point is an angelic weapon far less than the power of Michael can defeat him let alone a gun created to kill anyone in the Preacherverse save the supreme being while in his place/seat of power.
Yes, we do know that but we also know Michael isn't beyond the angels nowhere near him in power.


I think both Lucifer or Michael would destroy Sandy in a fair one on one fight but that Sandy's weapon can still hurt Michael given the chance.


You're ignoring it.



Being alive and coherent doesn't mean you will survive the shot. The point was very clear every shot is fatal. Nowhere did it ever say instantaneous death.

I don't have to prove anything you have to prove he would have survived. I guess having your arm shot off you seem to believe that you'd survive. The statements back me not you.

Skipping most of this post so I don't have to repeat myself.

Originally posted by quanchi112
But another trip inside creation which could weaken him once again further proving the guy isn't invulnerable.

I don't understand this sentence.



Presumably this is so, but where was it explicitly stated?




You're right about one thing: I have no proof that he would have survived. All I can prove is that he had survived so far and SoK, for whatever reason, thought it worthwhile to fire a second shot.

All you can prove is... nothing. All you have to set against my argument is faith.



My uncle Carl got his arm blown off the Gulf War. He seems fine 20 years later, but hey, I'm sure that injury is just taking its time.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Skipping most of this post so I don't have to repeat myself.



I don't understand this sentence.



Presumably this is so, but where was it explicitly stated?




You're right about one thing: I have no proof that he would have survived. All I can prove is that he had survived so far and SoK, for whatever reason, thought it worthwhile to fire a second shot.

All you can prove is... nothing. All you have to set against my argument is faith.



My uncle Carl got his arm blown off the Gulf War. He seems fine 20 years later, but hey, I'm sure that injury is just taking its time. That Lucifer was already weaker because the Presence left around the time he fought the Titans so he'd be even weaker since he and Michael fought later on.

I have a direct statement made twice about his gunfire. Every shot is fatal save against the undead.

You can survive miraculous things like 6 bullets and then one shot might kill you. Or a fall might kill you whereas the same fall might concuss someone else.

My point is direct statements about his gunfire were meant to be taken literally since no one survived save the undead.

Thanks.

If you'd be game this might make for an interesting battlezone. Both have a handful of appearances. Just Michael's Lucifer appearances (since I think these are in their own separate reality outside the dcu) versus Saint of Killer's Preacher appearances.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That Lucifer was already weaker because the Presence left around the time he fought the Titans so he'd be even weaker since he and Michael fought later on.

So just to be clear, it was not explicitly stated. SO my statement, that if he was weaker it was not enough that anyone had noticed, holds up? Good.



Feats separate the truth from heresay and lore. I could say every punch I throw is fatal, but if I go around shooting everyone I punch so they die anyway, you probably shouldn't believe me.




Sure, it's interesting, but didn't you already want to challenge me to a battlezone for Lucifer vs. Thanos?

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
So just to be clear, it was not explicitly stated. SO my statement, that if he was weaker it was not enough that anyone had noticed, holds up? Good. Just to be clear it was clearly stated. Good.

If you want to ignore words, their meanings, and the writer's straight to the point portrayal here go right ahead. You ignore what you don't like. I guess someone's arm being blown off means if they just take a breather they will be fine.



Sometime in the future definitely but as it stands now 2 of my 4 battlezones have seen me represent Thanos so I'd like to represent someone else in the meantime.

michael, no doubt.

Originally posted by leonidas
michael, no doubt. What makes you think so ?