Superman vs WBH-To the Death

CosmicComet

Originally posted by Stoic
Oh OK, so every time Superman has been hit, it was always CIS. I see.

Every time he has been hit by someone not known as an outright speedster or someone outright stated to have speedster level reflexes , yes, indeed, it has been CIS/PIS etc.

Afterall, his own independent reflex feats (which is the purest way of gauging a character, as written fights will always have to bend to plot and convenience.) trump the Hulk's independent reflex feats by a gap comparable to that of a lake vs a rain drop.

So absolutely, with a thread that has the provision that CIS is off, how can a being who can see LIGHT in slow motion be hit by someone who does not come close to that at all?

It's madness. I know it doesn't 'feel right' to say Superman can stomp the likes of Thor or Hulk, but I don't argue what 'feels right' in a cross-over thread, I argue, feats.

-Pr-

Originally posted by carver9
I have never seen Superman fight the way you say he fights. I am looking at on panel showings and its not there. This goes for Gladiator and Wonder Woman as well. I agree, he does use super speed but at a constant rate and at the paces you are saying...HELL NAW. This isn't "make believe" Supes vs "make believe Hulk"...we still use what they have done on panel.

Bullshit.

You've tried to use one mention of a nano-second to prove Gladiator fights at nano-second speeds.

Honestly, it's like you don't even try to hide your bias anymore.

Stoic

To be fair this battle would have to be waged in an arena that benefits both. Something like within a 5000 square foot energy from several stars worth of force fields, Mongul type War World setting.

I don't believe Superman would do jack to him physically to be honest unless he was toting around the same amount of solar energy as WB Hulk was, which would be impossible, due to the madder Hulk get's the more gamma he is fed from his secret little Gammaverse (thus the unknown source of his powers methinks). I wonder if he can drain that place? hmmm.

carver9

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Every time he has been hit by someone not known as an outright speedster or someone outright stated to have speedster level reflexes , yes, indeed, it has been CIS/PIS etc.

Afterall, his own independent reflex feats (which is the purest way of gauging a character, as written fights will always have to bend to plot and convenience.) trump the Hulk's independent reflex feats by a gap comparable to that of a lake vs a rain drop.

So absolutely, with a thread that has the provision that CIS is off, how can a being who can see LIGHT in slow motion be hit by someone who does not come close to that at all?

It's madness. I know it doesn't 'feel right' to say Superman can stomp the likes of Thor or Hulk, but I don't argue what 'feels right' in a cross-over thread, I argue, feats.

People like Glads and Supes get hit 95% of the time though. Are we suppose to accept the 5% over the majority? Does that even make sense?

carver9

-Pr-

Originally posted by carver9
When have I ever said Gladiator is untouchable?

facepalm

Nobody said untouchable.

Originally posted by carver9
People like Glads and Supes get hit 95% of the time though. Are we suppose to accept the 5% over the majority? Does that even make sense?

It isn't 95% of the time.

CosmicComet

It's simple.

It's CIS/PIS by writers who have no choice or are not aware of the implications of particular feats.

Fights by themselves are not indicative of reflexes.

Your actual powerset and feats are.

Sorry, but Hulk does not have a counter for the speed argument. He simply does not, especially here since the strongest argument against the speed argument; 'superman doesn't fight like that in-character', goes out the damn window since CIS Off is specified in the OP.

Stoic

Originally posted by -Pr-
Bullshit.

You've tried to use one mention of a nano-second to prove Gladiator fights at nano-second speeds.

Honestly, it's like you don't even try to hide your bias anymore.

@ -Pr-, what about the time in that FF comic when Gladiator was fighting Thor while he was being shifted through time or something to that extent, I have to reread it for clarification, but Gladiator was keeping up to Thor with tech that caused him to move at light speed. Does anyone remember this?

-Pr-

Originally posted by CosmicComet
It's simple.

It's CIS/PIS by writers who have no choice or are not aware of the implications of particular feats.

Fights by themselves are not indicative of reflexes.

Your actual powerset and feats are.

Sorry, but Hulk does not have a counter for the speed argument. He simply does not, especially here since the strongest argument against the speed argument; 'superman doesn't fight like that in-character', goes out the damn window since CIS Off is specified in the OP.

CIS off doesn't turn him in to powerset Supes. He still won't use his speed until he has to. He might use it earlier, granted, but he won't off the bat.

Originally posted by Stoic
@ -Pr-, what about the time in that FF comic when Gladiator was fighting Thor while he was being shifted through time or something to that extent, I have to reread it for clarification, but Gladiator was keeping up to Thor with tech that caused him to move at light speed. Does anyone remember this?

Different feat, but yes, there was that time thing.

carver9

Stoic

Originally posted by CosmicComet
It's simple.

It's CIS/PIS by writers who have no choice or are not aware of the implications of particular feats.

Fights by themselves are not indicative of reflexes.

Your actual powerset and feats are.

Sorry, but Hulk does not have a counter for the speed argument. He simply does not, especially here since the strongest argument against the speed argument; 'superman doesn't fight like that in-character', goes out the damn window since CIS Off is specified in the OP.

What about the lack of power that his more consistent levels has shown?

What if he could not hurt a Hulk whose strength has increased far above his own? It's happened with Grundy, and I'm betting that WB had Grundy's best beaten by a good amount.

Zack Fair

I think CIS off Superman is scary with that damned super speed. Lets not forget about Superman's exotic feats with his super speed like going intangible. What exactly is Hulk going to do to counter that? Hulk is going to be a very tough punching bag. To be honest I really don't know; HotM Hulk was really, really, really powerful, but what good is all that power if you can't land your hits. I reckon if Hulk somehow manages to nail Supes he might slow him down long enough to work for a win.

carver9

Originally posted by Zack Fair
I think CIS off Superman is scary with that damned Super Speed. Lets not forget about Superman's exotic feats with his super speed like going intangible. What exactly is Hulk going to do to counter that? Hulk is going to be a very tough punching bag.

Thunder clap.

Zack Fair

Originally posted by carver9
Thunder clap.

How would that work if Superman will be unable to be physically touched. And he could pretty much dodge all the slow-mo punches coming at him without the need of going intangible.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by -Pr-
CIS off doesn't turn him in to powerset Supes. He still won't use his speed until he has to. He might use it earlier, granted, but he won't off the bat.

This is the problem.

Misconceptions of what powersets means. Speed is part of your powerset yes, but at the same time its something far more basic as well; its just a physical attribute.

Speed/Reflexes is not something esoteric that requires some deliberate thought and planning to use; the way something like a black hole to the brain by Surfer would be.

Speed is simply innate.

Its just like what Philosophia gave as an example in another thread from a couple of months back. A three year old, with as little awareness and knowledge as it would have, still would not be stupid enough to let a slug touch it if it instinctively views the slug as dangerous.

And the difference in speed/reflexes between Superman and Hulk, is, quite frankly, far greater than the speed difference would be between the three year old and the slug.

Seeing as CIS is off, what would cause Superman to get hit, exactly? If CIS was on, you could argue things like 'he'd be curious to test Hulk's strength', or 'he would just take it because he'd be cocky'. But. Of course. That's CIS. And since its off, he's not going to get hit due to some personal choice.

You'd basically have to argue that he's getting hit because he's too abnormally retarded to dodge. Literally, since even something as stupid as a gnat, is not ever going to deliberately allow some human hand to crush it, especially if that human hand is coming in slow.

Anyway, the 'in-character' argument when it comes to speed is always annoyingly trite--especially when it involves some cross-over fight between Superman and some top tier Earth hero from Marvel.

It's vapid and it basically acts as a sentiment based bandage to not upset people who have no counter for genuinely arguable stances like 'Superman blitzes Hulk or Thor 10/10'. That's all it is. And things like 'I don't think X speedster would do this to Y non-speedster' is all it boils down to. No counter-arguments for the speed (seeing as they have none), nothing like that, just expressions of pure sentiment of how they believe it may depicted--no matter how inaccurate.

Its amusing because the simple question of 'Well, if X speedster simply decides not to be an idiot and use his speed like anyone of even completely average intelligence with such a power would do, there is nothing that Y non-speedster can do is there?' That's always what it boils down to, and in the end, there is never a viable, cohesive argument from the Y non-speedster side. Ever.

And that's basically what I'm going to leave here. If Superman does something as completely basic as actually use his speed. There is no argument for a Hulk win, is there? No. There isn't. Because the Hulk is slow enough to be a statue. Superman would basically have to wait for what feels like years to him to see Hulk simply exhale once. That is the perception speed difference.

Should anyone care that forum 'politics' makes saying someone like Superman could beat Hulk 10/10 using a completely basic strategy ('dodge the guy far slower than you')? No. Because there is no rule written anywhere that DC and Marvel characters of similar status within their own respective verses, has to be a close fight hypothetically. That's simply arguing with sentiment, based on the feeling that it should be close--for some reason. I don't know, maybe some 'publisher respect' reason or some shit like that.

Zack Fair

Originally posted by CosmicComet
This is the problem.

Misconceptions of what powersets means. Speed is part of your powerset yes, but at the same time its something far more basic as well; its just a physical attribute.

Speed/Reflexes is not something esoteric that requires some deliberate thought and planning to use; the way something like a black hole to the brain by Surfer would be.

Speed is simply innate.

Its just like what Philosophia gave as an example in another thread from a couple of months back. A three year old, with as little awareness and knowledge as it would have, still would not be stupid enough to let a slug touch it if it instinctively views the slug as dangerous.

And the difference in speed/reflexes between Superman and Hulk, is, quite frankly, far greater than the speed difference would be between the three year old and the slug.

Seeing as CIS is off, what would cause Superman to get hit, exactly? If CIS was on, you could argue things like 'he'd be curious to test Hulk's strength', or 'he would just take it because he'd be cocky'. But. Of course. That's CIS. And since its off, he's not going to get hit due to some personal choice.

You'd basically have to argue that he's getting hit because he's too abnormally retarded to dodge. Literally, since even something as stupid as a gnat, is not ever going to deliberately allow some human hand to crush it, especially if that human hand is coming in slow.

Anyway, the 'in-character' argument when it comes to speed is always annoyingly trite--especially when it involves some cross-over fight between Superman and some top tier Earth hero from Marvel.

It's vapid and it basically acts as a sentiment based bandage to not upset people who have no counter for genuinely arguable stances like 'Superman blitzes Hulk or Thor 10/10'. That's all it is. And things like 'I don't think X speedster would do this to Y non-speedster' is all it boils down to. No counter-arguments for the speed (seeing as they have none), nothing like that, just expressions of pure sentiment of how they believe it may depicted--no matter how inaccurate.

Its amusing because the simple question of 'Well, if X speedster simply decides not to be an idiot and use his speed like anyone of even completely average intelligence with such a power would do, there is nothing that Y non-speedster can do is there?' That's always what it boils down to, and in the end, there is never a viable, cohesive argument from the Y non-speedster side. Ever.

And that's basically what I'm going to leave here. If Superman does something as completely basic as actually use his speed. There is no argument for a Hulk win, is there? No. There isn't. Because the Hulk is slow enough to be a statue. Superman would basically have to wait for what feels like years to him to see Hulk simply exhale once. That is the perception speed difference.

Do I care that forum 'politics' makes saying someone like Superman could beat Hulk 10/10 using a basic avenue to win? No. Because there is no rule written anywhere that DC and Marvel characters of similar status within their own respective verses, has to be a close fight hypothetically. That's simply arguing with sentiment, based on the feeling that it should be close--for some reason. I don't know, maybe some 'publisher respect' reason or some shit like that.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.comicsalliance.com/media/2012/06/elite06.jpg

carver9

Originally posted by Zack Fair
How would that work if Superman will be unable to be physically touched. And he could pretty much dodge all the slow-mo punches coming at him without the need of going intangible.

Ok, you would have to show some hard proof that a thunder clap isn't touching Supes and this could go both ways.

How is Superman even touching Hulk when he will be surrounded by this...

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8094189/Incredible_Hulks_632_021.jpg.html

This OMNI blast will bust him in the face almost immediately which would leave him open for a punch and a punch from Hulk at these levels would cripple Supes. We have already seen how punches from WWH play out against Heralds.

Zack Fair

I don't have the proof to say the thunderclap won't work because the exact thing has never been done when he has gone intangible(as far as I can tell anyway) Closest thing to that would be Doomsday's breath attack that failed miserably, but alas it ain't a thunderclap. However I still think a physical assault like a thunderclap would not work. That's just how I see it. You think it will. Whoopedo. Nuking Hulk is a much better stance though. That will be a problem.

CosmicComet

Hulk clapping his hands together for a thunder clap would feel like its taking forever--literally it will feel like years to a CIS-Less Superman. Not an option.

As for his aura? Well, Hulk is going to need time to even think about getting angry enough to let it expand.

He's not going to have that time, as he's not going to start off with it.

Zack Fair

Take that speed to the max yo.

carver9

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Hulk clapping his hands together for a thunder clap would feel like its taking forever--literally it will feel like years to a CIS-Less Superman. Not an option.

As for his aura? Well, Hulk is going to need time to even think about getting angry enough to let it expand.

He's not going to have that time, as he's not going to start off with it.

This is WBH, he's already mad. That energy is already coming off of him.

Nihilist

Superman wins

CosmicComet

0y8g4QxgA3U

Ignore the pre-crisis and cross-over scans, but this video displays what a realistic fight between them would sorta look like.

carver9

Originally posted by Zack Fair
I don't have the proof to say the thunderclap won't work because the exact thing has never been done when he has gone intangible(as far as I can tell anyway) Closest thing to that would be Doomsday's breath attack that failed miserably, but alas it ain't a thunderclap. However I still think a physical assault like a thunderclap would not work. That's just how I see it. You think it will. Whoopedo. Nuking Hulk is a much better stance though. That will be a problem.

Superman attacks isn't working either and there is plenty of evidence supporting this.

carver9

Originally posted by CosmicComet
0y8g4QxgA3U

Ignore the pre-crisis and cross-over scans, but this video displays what a realistic fight between them would sorta look like.

That ignores everything shown on panel. No need for me to look at it.

-Pr-

Originally posted by CosmicComet
This is the problem.

Misconceptions of what powersets means. Speed is part of your powerset yes, but at the same time its something far more basic as well; its just a physical attribute.

Speed/Reflexes is not something esoteric that requires some deliberate thought and planning to use; the way something like a black hole to the brain by Surfer would be.

Speed is simply innate.

Its just like what Philosophia gave as an example in another thread from a couple of months back. A three year old, with as little awareness and knowledge as it would have, still would not be stupid enough to let a slug touch it if it instinctively views the slug as dangerous.

And the difference in speed/reflexes between Superman and Hulk, is, quite frankly, far greater than the speed difference would be between the three year old and the slug.

Seeing as CIS is off, what would cause Superman to get hit, exactly? If CIS was on, you could argue things like 'he'd be curious to test Hulk's strength', or 'he would just take it because he'd be cocky'. But. Of course. That's CIS. And since its off, he's not going to get hit due to some personal choice.

You'd basically have to argue that he's getting hit because he's too abnormally retarded to dodge. Literally, since even something as stupid as a gnat, is not ever going to deliberately allow some human hand to crush it, especially if that human hand is coming in slow.

Anyway, the 'in-character' argument when it comes to speed is always annoyingly trite--especially when it involves some cross-over fight between Superman and some top tier Earth hero from Marvel.

It's vapid and it basically acts as a sentiment based bandage to not upset people who have no counter for genuinely arguable stances like 'Superman blitzes Hulk or Thor 10/10'. That's all it is. And things like 'I don't think X speedster would do this to Y non-speedster' is all it boils down to. No counter-arguments for the speed (seeing as they have none), nothing like that, just expressions of pure sentiment of how they believe it may depicted--no matter how inaccurate.

Its amusing because the simple question of 'Well, if X speedster simply decides not to be an idiot and use his speed like anyone of even completely average intelligence with such a power would do, there is nothing that Y non-speedster can do is there?' That's always what it boils down to, and in the end, there is never a viable, cohesive argument from the Y non-speedster side. Ever.

And that's basically what I'm going to leave here. If Superman does something as completely basic as actually use his speed. There is no argument for a Hulk win, is there? No. There isn't. Because the Hulk is slow enough to be a statue. Superman would basically have to wait for what feels like years to him to see Hulk simply exhale once. That is the perception speed difference.

Should anyone care that forum 'politics' makes saying someone like Superman could beat Hulk 10/10 using a completely basic strategy ('dodge the guy far slower than you')? No. Because there is no rule written anywhere that DC and Marvel characters of similar status within their own respective verses, has to be a close fight hypothetically. That's simply arguing with sentiment, based on the feeling that it should be close--for some reason. I don't know, maybe some 'publisher respect' reason or some shit like that.

Why do you always do this? pr1983

In anything other than comics, you might have an argument. As such, you're ignoring things like Superman's willingness to fight fair, his willingness to take a punch so that innocents don't have to, and his general willingness to, as you put it, gauge his opponents strength.

And the patronising "this is why you do x" statements don't help anyone.

Originally posted by carver9
Ok, you would have to show some hard proof that a thunder clap isn't touching Supes and this could go both ways.

How is Superman even touching Hulk when he will be surrounded by this...

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8094189/Incredible_Hulks_632_021.jpg.html

This OMNI blast will bust him in the face almost immediately which would leave him open for a punch and a punch from Hulk at these levels would cripple Supes. We have already seen how punches from WWH play out against Heralds.

And you need to just stop talking. You're *this* close to getting banned for your hateful trolling.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by carver9
This is WBH, he's already mad. That energy is already coming off of him.

Yes. I know he's WBH mode. But its not something that leaks out without his control.

Seeing as there are scenes where WB Hulk is taking hits from Bi-Beast and the other bricks (tanking them to be sure) in the Dark Dimension, but where was this aura supposedly repelling them away? Surely since he was already in WB mode, they couldn't even be physically close to him yes with this supposed auto-aura?

The gamma aura isn't purely automatic.

Even if it is, its nothing Supes can't power through. It's hardly a supernova powerwise. Not to mention, even if it hurts him intially, Hulk is still immensely too slow to capitalize. Superman will have already recovered to barge in for a second go before Hulk even realizes Superman barged in the first time--hell, before Hulk even has time to blink.

Such is the dilemma of their speed difference; when you're a statue to a guy who can lift any weight that you can, and is at least as durable as you are,can fly, and has ranged attacks and you have no exotic power sets up like Doctor Strange, you're phucked. Completely, phucked.

Sorry. Superman beats Hulk 10/10 in a CIS-Less environment. No argument.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by -Pr-
Why do you always do this? pr1983

In anything other than comics, you might have an argument. As such, you're ignoring things like Superman's willingness to fight fair, his willingness to take a punch so that innocents don't have to, and his general willingness to, as you put it, gauge his opponents strength.

And the patronising "this is why you do x" statements don't help anyone.

There is nothing special about comics that allows it to ignore logic that can apply to any hypothetical fictional discussion.

They are all subject to the same kinda tropes and character dilemmas and procedure where you argue viable feats and try to eliminate bullshit stuff that doesn't work.

I get all that you are saying. But again, its pointless to what I'm saying.

As I said, this in-character speed argument angle is never able to give an answer to a completely basic question.

Again, answer this to me honestly, if Superman DOES decide that he does want to use his speed as well as he could (and this is a very realistic possibility, seeing as CIS-Less Superman does not really get represented in comics), how could Hulk possibly win?

Seriously, if you could just admit that there is an avenue for Superman to win 10/10 if he simply did something as basic as not be retarded, then this argument could end, and you can go back to the in-character arguments (even though its not relevant to this thread anyway) without me ever bothering you about it again.

carver9

I will let you handle it then.

Stoic

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Yes. I know he's WBH mode. But its not something that leaks out without his control.

Seeing as there are scenes where WB Hulk is taking hits from Bi-Beast and the other bricks (tanking them to be sure) in the Dark Dimension, but where was this aura supposedly repelling them away? Surely since he was already in WB mode, they couldn't even be physically close to him yes with this supposed auto-aura?

The gamma aura isn't purely automatic.

Even if it is, its nothing Supes can't power through. It's hardly a supernova powerwise. Not to mention, even if it hurts him intially, Hulk is still immensely too slow to capitalize. Superman will have already recovered to barge in for a second go before Hulk even realizes Superman barged in the first time--hell, before Hulk even has time to blink.

Such is the dilemma of their speed difference; when you're a statue to a guy who can lift any weight that you can, and is at least as durable as you are,can fly, and has ranged attacks and you have no exotic power sets up like Doctor Strange, you're phucked. Completely, phucked.

Sorry. Superman beats Hulk 10/10 in a CIS-Less environment. No argument.

So he powers through, and as usual due to his fighting style (quasi grappler/street fight brawler), so what happens when he rushes him and finds that he is met by far superior strength than his own (it's happened). Then hit by forces similar to those that were capable of KOing him in the past? What then?

I mean the idea of Superman zipping around him laser beaming him, punching, and freeze breathing on him does exist, the question however arises on whether this would be enough to put him down as he grows ever stronger, and more resistant to all forms of damage.

Do you really believe that Superman can stay at the same level of might as WB Hulk? The strength gap according to many past performances against massively strong characters have put Kal on his rear end. Just saying.

iceman24567

Superman blitzes him

The Sorrow

Some of the speed theories are out of hand imo, Superman throwing millions of punches before Hulk can react, Hulk's a slug/gnat etc etc. Based on this logic Superman would defeat multiple Hulk's that powerful which is completely ridiculous. An all-out WBH crushes Superman.

h1a8

Originally posted by The Sorrow
Some of the speed theories are out of hand imo, Superman throwing millions of punches before Hulk can react, Hulk's a slug/gnat etc etc. Based on this logic Superman would defeat multiple Hulk's that powerful which is completely ridiculous. An all-out WBH crushes Superman.

The problem here is not only speed but can Superman hurt WBH.
I don't think he can.
But I also think a cis less Superman won't get hit either.

At best Superman will stalemate and at worst WBH will crush him. There is no way I know of that Superman wins, unless there some exotic stuff I don't know about.

The Sorrow

Originally posted by h1a8
The problem here is not only speed but can Superman hurt WBH.
I don't think he can.
But I also think a cis less Superman won't get hit either.

At best Superman will stalemate and at worst WBH will crush him. There is no way I know of that Superman wins, unless there some exotic stuff I don't know about.
He fought Betty who became as powerful as he was and was having the time of his life, wrecking planets and moons in the process which besides one or two outlier feats is above Superman. Previous incarnations of Hulk's have feats of reacting/jumping far faster than sound, combined with his perceptions, nearly impeccable calculations of trajectory, constant gamma bursts of energy etc. As fast as Superman is, him not being hit even once is a big stretch imo.

Naija boy

Wbh is definitely stronger than pre boot super mans consistent levels by a substantial margin. Going by this forums conception of CIS, he should win this.

biensalsa

Some Hulk fans think Savage Hulk will even defeat Pre-Crisis Superman.

If they think that, talking about this is even more a waste of time.

I think this will be a closer fight.

But seriously think about it, if someone thinks Savage Hulk can defeat PC Superman, what hopes you have into talking sense to that same person?

Not a lot of Heralds can take the forces WBH can dish out, but Superman is one of them.

Of course is going to affect him.

Imagine two boxers one can punch really hard but the other one besides punching hard also moves fast.

Make your own conclusions.

Colossus-Big C

Superman

PillarofOsiris

carver9

Whoever thinks Savage Hulk can beat Pre Crisis Superman is retarded. Savage gave him a run for his money, even flash koed him but defeating him entirely, that sh** ain't happening.

juggerman

Superman wins here. WBH has no answer for the speed and strength combo that Supes can dish out CIS-less

Cogito

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Superman

W
T
F

biensalsa

I have a question for the OP.

Isn't HOTM Hulk basically a CIS off Hulk who is willing to kill?

psycho gundam

isn't NE superman's most powerful blow (using his speed) the shadow moon buster? if so speed kills, yes, but it won't be the guy he slams into.

not sure if he can hit someone at faster speeds than the one in that instance.

whacknasty

So is this new 52 Supes or pre? Has his heat vision shown any differences in it's strength/heat?
I've seen an argument with these two where someone says Supes can just stay in orbit and use his most potent heat vision to lobotomize Hulk...

Would Supes (either version) have heat vision that powerful to do this to WB Hulk? Or would that have to be a morals off Supes?

PillarofOsiris

Superman is AT MINIMUM as strong as WBH ... And that's being extremely generous. Supes is definitely more durable. He's faster (by A LOT... Actually "A LOT" isnt even sufficient) and he can fly. How exactly can hulk win here?

Zack Fair

Originally posted by whacknasty
So is this new 52 Supes or pre? Has his heat vision shown any differences in it's strength/heat?
I've seen an argument with these two where someone says Supes can just stay in orbit and use his most potent heat vision to lobotomize Hulk...

Would Supes (either version) have heat vision that powerful to do this to WB Hulk? Or would that have to be a morals off Supes?

New 52 Superman dies a painful death.

carver9

Originally posted by juggerman
Superman wins here. WBH has no answer for the speed and strength combo that Supes can dish out CIS-less

And Superman has no answer for the OMNI blast that will hit him in the face as soon as he try to punch Hulk. Once this happens, once Superman rams into this (which would most likely be as soon as the bell rings), Hulk kills him.

carver9

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Superman is AT MINIMUM as strong as WBH ... And that's being extremely generous. Supes is definitely more durable. He's faster (by A LOT... Actually "A LOT" isnt even sufficient) and he can fly. How exactly can hulk win here?

Superman is millions of Times stronger than Thor huh?

PillarofOsiris

Originally posted by carver9
Superman is millions of Times stronger than Thor huh?

Where do u get that from my post? I've never said that yet u continue to say I did.

PillarofOsiris

What u HAVE said though is that the thing could one shot Superman and classic colossus could beat him down.

carver9

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Where do u get that from my post? I've never said that yet u continue to say I did.

If Savage Hulk is stronger than Thor and WWH is stronger than both (by a significant gap) but WBH is far above WWH, where does that put Thor since you are saying that Superman and WBH are physically comparable. By the way, I am not the only person that remember you saying Supes is millions of Times stronger than Thor, people point it out all of the time.

carver9

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
What u HAVE said though is that the thing could one shot Superman and classic colossus could beat him down.

I sure did say Angrir and Colossonaut could one shot reboot Superman. He didnt have the fts during that time of me saying this proving that he could withstand a blow from them at full force.

Uriel005

Originally posted by biensalsa
Some Hulk fans think Savage Hulk will even defeat Pre-Crisis Superman.

If they think that, talking about this is even more a waste of time.

I think this will be a closer fight.

But seriously think about it, if someone thinks Savage Hulk can defeat PC Superman, what hopes you have into talking sense to that same person?

Not a lot of Heralds can take the forces WBH can dish out, but Superman is one of them.

Of course is going to affect him.

Imagine two boxers one can punch really hard but the other one besides punching hard also moves fast.

Make your own conclusions. Pacman vs Margarito.

Damborgson

Originally posted by biensalsa
I have a question for the OP.

Isn't HOTM Hulk basically a CIS off Hulk who is willing to kill?

Yeah in a way I guess. HOTM hulk just finally stopped holding back and gave it everything he had. He made sure innocents werent around when he did it is all.

Damborgson

Originally posted by Uriel005
Pacman vs Margarito.

Thats actually a decent comparison lol. Margarito had a lot of damage soak in that fight like always.

carver9

Originally posted by Damborgson
Yeah in a way I guess. HOTM hulk just finally stopped holding back and gave it everything he had. He made sure innocents werent around when he did it is all.

I don't think he would try to kill Supes. He only did all of that because he knew the wishes would bring them back.

quanchi112

biensalsa

Originally posted by quanchi112
Weigh in don't go on a rant about a few fans. You do this all the time. Present your case don't try to discredit random posters.

I already give my opinion on it but the "village scientist" roll eyes (sarcastic)

didn't get it. laughing

quanchi112

Originally posted by biensalsa
I already give my opinion on it but the "village scientist" roll eyes (sarcastic)

didn't get it. laughing

You need to quit trying to discredit the posters and turning this into a personal attack fest.

Hulk wins based on his power and his almost ignoring of hh attacks. On another level imo.

Damborgson

Originally posted by carver9
I don't think he would try to kill Supes. He only did all of that because he knew the wishes would bring them back. He probably wouldn't in character no.

Zack Fair

Originally posted by Uriel005
Pacman vs Margarito.

Pfft. Margarito was a fraud.

biensalsa

Originally posted by quanchi112
You need to quit trying to discredit the posters and turning this into a personal attack fest.

Hulk wins based on his power and his almost ignoring of hh attacks. On another level imo.

Which poster did I discredit???

I have attacked personally no one in here.

I said "some people" that is no one directly being mentioned.

That is cool, if you want to believe what ever you want. it is not my duty to change your mind.

Have better things to do.

BTW did you won the award?

quanchi112

Originally posted by biensalsa
Which poster did I discredit???

I have attacked personally no one in here.

I said "some people" that is no one directly being mentioned.

That is cool, if you want to believe what ever you want. it is not my duty to change your mind.

Have better things to do.

BTW did you won the award? It's did you win the award. I can always count on your english to botch the punchline. Thanos for the laugh.

Hulk wins.

biensalsa

Originally posted by quanchi112
It's did you win the award. I can always count on your english to botch the punchline. Thanos for the laugh.

Hulk wins.

So did you win the award? big grin

I guess at this point you will turn that into a double win?

Damborgson

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Pfft. Margarito was a fraud.

Antonio Plaster-cheeto

quanchi112

Originally posted by biensalsa
So did you win the award? big grin

I guess at this point you will turn that into a double win? You already butched the joke with your attempt at english.

biensalsa

Originally posted by quanchi112
You already butched the joke with your attempt at english.

This just ratifies, you have the award.

btw, Superman wins in a very hard bloody fight IMO.

quanchi112

Originally posted by biensalsa
This just ratifies, you have the award.

btw, Superman wins in a very close fight IMO. Personal attacks are a sign you can't debate.

biensalsa

Originally posted by quanchi112
Personal attacks are a sign you can't debate.

It is not my fault, I already gave my opinion, but you can comprehend it.

Well maybe is a little bit of my fault because of my English which BTW You, mentioning my English is in no way shape or form is a personal attack. big grin

quanchi112

Originally posted by biensalsa
It is not my fault, I already gave my opinion, but you can comprehend it.

Well maybe is a little bit of my fault because of my English which BTW You, mentioning my English is in no way shape or form is a personal attack. big grin

You don't make any sense.

Hulk wins.

biensalsa

Originally posted by quanchi112
You don't make any sense.

Hulk wins.

Um... you said I'm using personal attacks because I can't debate.

Well I just pointed out at you doing a personal attack complaining about my english.

Most people online would not bring that up unless they feel the need to use personal attacks.

You will have to use something better, because I have a thick skin for that particular personal attack.

Superman wins wink

Diesldude

Originally posted by carver9
Superman is millions of Times stronger than Thor huh? How many times is hulk stronger than base level savage hulk? And how many times is wbh stronger than Thor?

Colossus-Big C

A high end superman is stronger than everyone, an average superman is equal to thor.

So yes an wbh is stronger than an average superman.

Superman still wins though.

quanchi112

Originally posted by biensalsa
Um... you said I'm using personal attacks because I can't debate.

Well I just pointed out at you doing a personal attack complaining about my english.

Most people online would not bring that up unless they feel the need to use personal attacks.

You will have to use something better, because I have a thick skin for that particular personal attack.

Superman wins wink

Based on what does Superman win ?

Hulk's a peer to Superman pre HOTM anger.

-Pr-

Originally posted by CosmicComet
There is nothing special about comics that allows it to ignore logic that can apply to any hypothetical fictional discussion.

They are all subject to the same kinda tropes and character dilemmas and procedure where you argue viable feats and try to eliminate bullshit stuff that doesn't work.

I get all that you are saying. But again, its pointless to what I'm saying.

As I said, this in-character speed argument angle is never able to give an answer to a completely basic question.

Again, answer this to me honestly, if Superman DOES decide that he does want to use his speed as well as he could (and this is a very realistic possibility, seeing as CIS-Less Superman does not really get represented in comics), how could Hulk possibly win?

Seriously, if you could just admit that there is an avenue for Superman to win 10/10 if he simply did something as basic as not be retarded, then this argument could end, and you can go back to the in-character arguments (even though its not relevant to this thread anyway) without me ever bothering you about it again.

It's like you're trying to make me argue AGAINST Superman.

Thanks, dick. sneer

Seriously though, your argument would hold more weight if Superman's reflexes were portrayed consistently in comics, when they aren't. They're fluid under a lot of writers, accelerating when needed.

"Not being retarded" is a completely invalid way of looking at it, tbh.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
isn't NE superman's most powerful blow (using his speed) the shadow moon buster? if so speed kills, yes, but it won't be the guy he slams into.

not sure if he can hit someone at faster speeds than the one in that instance.

No, but I'm not sure if you're serious.

PillarofOsiris

Originally posted by carver9
I sure did say Angrir and Colossonaut could one shot reboot Superman. He didnt have the fts during that time of me saying this proving that he could withstand a blow from them at full force.

lol. Nope. That wasn't the context AT ALL.

PillarofOsiris

Originally posted by carver9
If Savage Hulk is stronger than Thor and WWH is stronger than both (by a significant gap) but WBH is far above WWH, where does that put Thor since you are saying that Superman and WBH are physically comparable. By the way, I am not the only person that remember you saying Supes is millions of Times stronger than Thor, people point it out all of the time.

I know h1a8 has stated something to the effect that Superman is a million times stronger than Thor, but I believe he no longer believes that.

They probably said it because they heard it from you. If you or anyone else can find the quote of me saying it, I will leave the site forever. How's that for a bet? But if you can't find it in 3 months, you leave forever.

I did say that based on WM Thor's showings, Superman was at least ten times stronger than Thor. Based on feats, that's a hard statement to disprove. Durability-wise, the comparison between Superman and Thor is even worse.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
A high end superman is stronger than everyone, an average superman is equal to thor.

So yes an wbh is stronger than an average superman.

Superman still wins though.

Is Superman stronger than Thanos? how about despero?

psycho gundam

Originally posted by -Pr-
No, but I'm not sure if you're serious. i actually do want to know. i can't recall a fiercer blow from him off hand, and that instance had quantifiable elements.

TheHulk

Supermans Wins 8/10

ozz81

Interesting vids ,pretty cool...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbizTBYs-rQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDBNB2hk5t0

-Pr-

Originally posted by psycho gundam
i actually do want to know. i can't recall a fiercer blow from him off hand, and that instance had quantifiable elements.

Him crashing in to a moon (which is more a durability feat according to some) is the best striking feat you've seen from him? Not killing Doomsday, breaking Darkseid's arm, one-shotting heralds at various times, or splitting a moon?

Effect Veiler

Hulk destroys him. If you don't know why, read the reboot. New 52 puts most Marvel characters out of Superman's league.

Damborgson

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
Hulk destroys him. If you don't know why, read the reboot. New 52 puts most Marvel characters out of Superman's league.

Sorry. Didn't specify that it was pre reboot. Just thought it was assumed.

Damborgson

Originally posted by ozz81
Interesting vids ,pretty cool...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbizTBYs-rQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDBNB2hk5t0

Pretty good animation on those.

Effect Veiler

Originally posted by Damborgson
Sorry. Didn't specify that it was pre reboot. Just thought it was assumed.
Unless specified we go with what's canon. Or do you do things differently than on every other forum here?

Damborgson

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
Unless specified we go with what's canon. Or do you do things differently than on every other forum here?

No I thought people wouldn't be dumb enough as to think I'd put a basically featless superman against the most powerful version of Hulk ever? Thats what I mean by assumed.

Effect Veiler

Originally posted by Damborgson
No I thought people wouldn't be dumb enough as to think I'd put a basically featless superman against the most powerful version of Hulk ever? Thats what I mean by assumed.
And you thought that Superman who lifted a book with infinite mass, has held black holes, and traveled faster than light wouldn't stomp the version of Hulk that was knocked out to Banner state by a city-busting satellite beam?

It's a stomp either way.

Damborgson

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
And you thought that Superman who lifted a book with infinite mass, has held black holes, and traveled faster than light wouldn't stomp the version of Hulk that was knocked out to Banner state by a city-busting satellite beam?

It's a stomp either way.

Thats up to you to debate. Some people disagree with you.

Effect Veiler

Originally posted by Damborgson
Thats up to you to debate. Some people disagree with you.
People can disagree all they want. But the facts clearly points to that Superman wins.

PillarofOsiris

brownqk

WB Hulk without a doubt.

Damborgson

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
People can disagree all they want. But the facts clearly points to that Superman wins.

Then argue that with them. Not me. smile

Damborgson

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I assumed pre-reboot. Apparently it's a problem for some people though.

Effect Veiler

Originally posted by Damborgson
Apparently it's a problem for some people though.
It's a 10/10 stomp one way or the other. It's a spite thread either way.

And logically you'd go with what's canon.

PillarofOsiris

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
It's a 10/10 stomp one way or the other. It's a spite thread either way.

And logically you'd go with what's canon.

Since when is pre-reboot Superman not canon?

Effect Veiler

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Since when is pre-reboot Superman not canon?
Since the people at DC decided to trash all the history up until this point and start anew, hence the reboot.

PillarofOsiris

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
Since the people at DC decided to trash all the history up until this point and start anew, hence the reboot.

Maybe you should read this, it might clear up some of the confusion you seem to be having:

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/dcnu-bob-harras-eddie-berganza-history-in-tact-110615.html

Stoic

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
It's a 10/10 stomp one way or the other. It's a spite thread either way.

And logically you'd go with what's canon.

It would be a good idea if you looked at the context of the event that put the Hulk down, because when you do, you will realize that the Hulk wanted to be stopped. He held back the entire time, and at any time could have killed every single person on Earth in an instant.

How does Superman hurt him? I can see this as a long blown out stalemate, with Superman hitting the Hulk, while the Hulk continued to get angrier, stronger, and more damage resistant. Any other way would be a blatant low ball in either direction.

Damborgson

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
It's a 10/10 stomp one way or the other. It's a spite thread either way.

And logically you'd go with what's canon.

Give it a rest. erm

You realized you were unnecessarily bitching and now you're just hanging in to get the last word and try to justify your first post despite knowing it's really not something justifiable. Your not the first to do this so don't think your being anything special with this third grade attitude your letting loose. You're just being an annoying prick. smile

And with that, I'll let you get your last word to avoid getting warned for bashing or anything similar.

Effect Veiler

PillarofOsiris

Originally posted by Stoic
It would be a good idea if you looked at the context of the event that put the Hulk down, because when you do, you will realize that the Hulk wanted to be stopped. He held back the entire time, and at any time could have killed every single person on Earth in an instant.

How does Superman hurt him? I can see this as a long blown out stalemate, with Superman hitting the Hulk, while the Hulk continued to get angrier, stronger, and more damage resistant. Any other way would be a blatant low ball in either direction.

The myth that the Hulk can just tank any amount of physical damage really needs to die. Hulk and Juggernaut are the two biggest culprits of the no-limits fallacy. How many times do we need to see the Hulk get physically beaten to start realizing it can be done? Superman has hurt a guy who tanked a universe-buster. He lifted infinite weight on more than one occasion. He's shattered space and time, and reality. He's fast-balled black holes.

The Hulk does not have unlimited energy. Sentry used physical force to change him back into banner. In regards to the satelittes, regardless of whether Hulk wanted to be stopped or not, how is he going to will his durability to lower? Zeus physically beat him to a pulp. His healing factor and durability have limits. In fact, there are so many more examples of Superman tanking FAR MORE damage than the Hulk, it's almost preposterous to compare the two.

Stoic

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
The myth that the Hulk can just tank any amount of physical damage really needs to die. Hulk and Juggernaut are the two biggest culprits of the no-limits fallacy. How many times do we need to see the Hulk get physically beaten to start realizing it can be done? Superman has hurt a guy who tanked a universe-buster. He lifted infinite weight on more than one occasion. He's shattered space and time, and reality. He's fast-balled black holes.

The Hulk does not have unlimited energy. Sentry used physical force to change him back into banner. In regards to the satelittes, regardless of whether Hulk wanted to be stopped or not, how is he going to will his durability to lower? Zeus physically beat him to a pulp. His healing factor and durability have limits. In fact, there are so many more examples of Superman tanking FAR MORE damage than the Hulk, it's almost preposterous to compare the two.

The question here should be how many times do you need to be told that the Hulk does not remain on a static level of strength like a character like Hercules is?

You can attempt to make up whatever you like but on panel Wolverine told/said to the Hulk how he noticesd how difficult it was to cut him, and to further cement this fact, he was later seen to ignore what used to be known as high yield hits from high class 100 characters.

Superman in more consistent showings, has needed help to tug a planet, was KO'd when he hit a shadow moon, and other showings that weighed and measured his peak strength abilities. On the other side the Hulk hit an equal power so hard that the mass of the event turned at the very least a planet to dust.

Your unwillingness to accept the idea that WB Hulk was far out of Superman's league in terms of strength and durability is your cross to bare. However on panel evidence suggests that Superman is nowhere near as strong as WB Hulk. To add to this it never once said that the Hulk had reached his limit. I can accept the idea that a CIS off Supes cna rain down blow after unanswered blow, but you have to prove that those blows would be effective to a guy that at a far weker level was able to tank a hit that tore a large portion of the moon off, and he was holding back to boot.

Sentry fought a Hulk that was holding back, did you read WW Hulk? If so perhaps you might want to think before typing such things.

-Pr-

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
It's a 10/10 stomp one way or the other. It's a spite thread either way.

And logically you'd go with what's canon.

if it's pre-reboot, which the maker said it was, then it's not spite, and it's not being closed.

Originally posted by Stoic
The question here should be how many times do you need to be told that the Hulk does not remain on a static level of strength like a character like Hercules is?

You can attempt to make up whatever you like but on panel Wolverine told/said to the Hulk how he noticesd how difficult it was to cut him, and to further cement this fact, he was later seen to ignore what used to be known as high yield hits from high class 100 characters.

Superman in more consistent showings, has needed help to tug a planet, was KO'd when he hit a shadow moon, and other showings that weighed and measured his peak strength abilities. On the other side the Hulk hit an equal power so hard that the mass of the event turned at the very least a planet to dust.

Your unwillingness to accept the idea that WB Hulk was far out of Superman's league in terms of strength and durability is your cross to bare. However on panel evidence suggests that Superman is nowhere near as strong as WB Hulk. To add to this it never once said that the Hulk had reached his limit. I can accept the idea that a CIS off Supes cna rain down blow after unanswered blow, but you have to prove that those blows would be effective to a guy that at a far weker level was able to tank a hit that tore a large portion of the moon off, and he was holding back to boot.

Sentry fought a Hulk that was holding back, did you read WW Hulk? If so perhaps you might want to think before typing such things.

those aren't superman's average showings...

PillarofOsiris

Originally posted by Stoic
The question here should be how many times do you need to be told that the Hulk does not remain on a static level of strength like a character like Hercules is?

You can attempt to make up whatever you like but on panel Wolverine told/said to the Hulk how he noticesd how difficult it was to cut him, and to further cement this fact, he was later seen to ignore what used to be known as high yield hits from high class 100 characters.

Superman in more consistent showings, has needed help to tug a planet, was KO'd when he hit a shadow moon, and other showings that weighed and measured his peak strength abilities. On the other side the Hulk hit an equal power so hard that the mass of the event turned at the very least a planet to dust.

Your unwillingness to accept the idea that WB Hulk was far out of Superman's league in terms of strength and durability is your cross to bare. However on panel evidence suggests that Superman is nowhere near as strong as WB Hulk. To add to this it never once said that the Hulk had reached his limit. I can accept the idea that a CIS off Supes cna rain down blow after unanswered blow, but you have to prove that those blows would be effective to a guy that at a far weker level was able to tank a hit that tore a large portion of the moon off, and he was holding back to boot.

Sentry fought a Hulk that was holding back, did you read WW Hulk? If so perhaps you might want to think beofre typig such things.

It sounds like you really don't understand what happened with the shadow moon incident, but if you want to try to get into a low-balling contest between Superman and the Hulk, you'll lose badly.

And lol at claiming WBH is stronger than Superman because he turned a planet to dust in a shared feat.

And again lol that he survived a blast that took out a chunk of the moon.

Superman survived a blast equal to 52 supernovas WHILE WEAKENED.

ONE SUPERNOVA is equal to 10 trillion hydrogen bombs (and I'm not making that up).

Again, Superman on multiple occasions has lifted infinite weight, slowed eternity, etc. So what does the Hulk have that, in your words, puts him so far beyond Superman in strength? Hope you have something bigger than infinite.

Stoic

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
It sounds like you really don't understand what happened with the shadow moon incident, but if you want to try to get into a low-balling contest between Superman and the Hulk, you'll lose badly.

And lol at claiming WBH is stronger than Superman because he turned a planet to dust in a shared feat.

And again lol that he survived a blast that took out a chunk of the moon.

Superman survived a blast equal to 52 supernovas WHILE WEAKENED.

ONE SUPERNOVA is equal to 10 trillion hydrogen bombs (and I'm not making that up).

Again, Superman on multiple occasions has lifted infinite weight, slowed eternity, etc. So what does the Hulk have that, in your words, puts him so far beyond Superman in strength? Hope you have something bigger than infinite.

I would hope that I would lose at a low balling contest, because it is you doing to low balling. Making it seem like Superman is even close to WB Hulk in the dept. of strength, and durability. Would you also like people to believe that Superman could continue to increase in power at the same tempo that WB Hulk can?

And yet here you are again not understanding the Hulk's power set. Where did it say on panel that the Hulk had finally reached his limit? Please show the world because I think I missed it. Do you need a tutorial on his power set? Do you have any idea just how strong the guys that were hitting him were, and how he acting like he was being hit by a gentle breeze? Superman would not be able to tank that amount of damage in a consistent showing. CIS off means that he's doing everything in his power to win, not that his powers have been boosted. Superman would not be able to hurt WB Hulk. This is why it would just boil down to a long boring stalemate with Superman throwing ineffective punches, while the Hulk would not have the ability to hit him.

Diesldude

Originally posted by Diesldude
How many times is hulk stronger than base level savage hulk? And how many times is wbh stronger than Thor? I know I quoted Carver but he isn't available I guess, but stoic you can take a crack at this if you want. Thx

PillarofOsiris

Originally posted by Stoic
I would hope that I would lose at a low balling contest, because it is you doing to low balling. Making it seem like Superman is even close to WB Hulk in the dept. of strength, and durability. Would you also like people to believe that Superman could continue to increase in power at the same tempo that WB Hulk can?

And yet here you are again not understanding the Hulk's power set. Where did it say on panel that the Hulk had finally reached his limit? Please show the world because I think I missed it. Do you need a tutorial on his power set? Do you have any idea just how strong the guys that were hitting him were, and how he acting like he was being hit by a gentle breeze? Superman would not be able to tank that amount of damage in a consistent showing. CIS off means that he's doing everything in his power to win, not that his powers have been boosted. Superman would not be able to hurt WB Hulk. This is why it would just boil down to a long boring stalemate with Superman throwing ineffective punches, while the Hulk would not have the ability to hit him.

I know the Hulk's strength is dynamic, what I'm saying is, the best we've SEEN from him on panel, is not better than the best we've SEEN from Superman. That's not even debatable. Yeah, maybe the Hulk's strength could go past Superman's (assuming there is anything he can lift that beyond infinite weight I guess), but I've yet to see it, and I've read a ton of Hulk comics, and by and large enjoy them. I just don't make him out to be a trans character like some people.

You're basically giving us the textbook definition of the no-limits fallacy. I'm going to ask you a question, and don't take this the wrong way, I'm just wondering how much physical damage, if any, you believe WBH could take before he is killed.

Do you think Odin, just amping his strength only (a la Zeus) could physically beat the WBH to death?

If not, do you think that, say a guy like Infinity Man, Thanos, or GA Superboy prime, or PC Superman could beat him to death?

i.e., if WBH just sat there and let Odin, or Infinity Man, or Thanos, or PC Captain Marvel could beat him down, would he ever die IYO?

Stoic

Originally posted by Diesldude
I know I quoted Carver but he isn't available I guess, but stoic you can take a crack at this if you want. Thx

WB Hulk was at the very least be 1000x stronger than Savage before he even went to the Dark Dimension according to what was written when he easily outperformed an Augmented Bi-Beast, and Wendigo, who were said to be 1000x their base strength. This again happened before he went to the Dark Dimension, and released half of the power great enough to at the very least, indirectly destroy a planet and its moons.

I can not say how powerful he was while in the Dark Dimension, because it never states this much, but it was certainly leagues above what he did to the suped up Wendigo, and Bi Beast. His resistance to damage also grew exponentially with his strength. This much is certain if judging by context.

Diesldude

Originally posted by Stoic
WB Hulk was at the very least be 1000x stronger than Savage before he even went to the Dark Dimension according to what was written when he easily outperformed an Augmented Bi-Beast, and Wendigo, who were said to be 1000x their base strength. This again happened before he went to the Dark Dimension, and released half of the power great enough to at the very least, indirectly destroy a planet and its moons.

I can not say how powerful he was while in the Dark Dimension, because it never states this much, but it was certainly leagues above what he did to the suped up Wendigo, and Bi Beast. His resistance to damage also grew exponentially with his strength. This much is certain if judging by context. And the other part? Good answer, How much is he stronger than base level Thor?

Stoic

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I know the Hulk's strength is dynamic, what I'm saying is, the best we've SEEN from him on panel, is not better than the best we've SEEN from Superman. That's not even debatable. Yeah, maybe the Hulk's strength could go past Superman's (assuming there is anything he can lift that beyond infinite weight I guess), but I've yet to see it, and I've read a ton of Hulk comics, and by and large enjoy them. I just don't make him out to be a trans character like some people.

You're basically giving us the textbook definition of the no-limits fallacy. I'm going to ask you a question, and don't take this the wrong way, I'm just wondering how much physical damage, if any, you believe WBH could take before he is killed.

Do you think Odin, just amping his strength only (a la Zeus) could physically beat the WBH to death?

If not, do you think that, say a guy like Infinity Man, Thanos, or GA Superboy prime, or PC Superman could beat him to death?

i.e., if WBH just sat there and let Odin, or Infinity Man, or Thanos, or PC Captain Marvel could beat him down, would he ever die IYO?

But DC is notorious for discontinuity (hence the crisis, and hard reboot). The only way for us to truly gauge the best strength feats out of the two is to weigh them up against other well known characters with defined strength peaks. Not an Omni Laser said to be capable of destroying 40 stars, because we then enter into the realms of hyperbole, and many other statements that feed such thought processes.

Let's instead go off of the two in combat against well known mid-high level Herald characters., and how well they did against them. Were they moved by them? How weak were they in comparison to these two.

And one more very important thing, let's not get into this shrinkage bullshyt, Wendigo, Bi-Beast, and Arm'Cheddon are all very powerful beings, and have always been able to take on true herald level characters when not jobbing which would be the norm that we need to discuss.

WB'S norm vs Superman's norm.

Stoic

Originally posted by Diesldude
And the other part? Good answer, How much is he stronger than base level Thor?

I really didn't want to go there. In my honest opinion I would place Thor at base levels to be 1/3rd or less stronger than Bi-Beast without being augmented. I'm going off of past showings in comics, and the difficulties that other characters have had when dealing with the Bi Beast, excluding the Hulk (dynamic strength is why he's excluded). It's really a loaded question, because the answer involves a lot of cross referencing.

PillarofOsiris

Originally posted by Diesldude
And the other part? Good answer, How much is he stronger than base level Thor?

Enough where if they went toe to toe in a physical fight, Thor isn't going to last very long at all.

PillarofOsiris

Originally posted by Stoic
But DC is notorious for discontinuity (hence the crisis, and hard reboot). The only way for us to truly gauge the best strength feats out of the two is to weigh them up against other well known characters with defined strength peaks. Not an Omni Laser said to be capable of destroying 40 stars, because we then enter into the realms of hyperbole, and many other statements that feed such thought processes.

Let's instead go off of the two in combat against well known mid-high level Herald characters., and how well they did against them. Were they moved by them? How weak were they in comparison to these two.

And one more very important thing, let's not get into this shrinkage bullshyt, Wendigo, Bi-Beast, and Arm'Cheddon are all very powerful beings, and have always been able to take on true herald level characters when not jobbing which would be the norm that we need to discuss.

WB'S norm vs Superman's norm.

Would you say WBH doesn't hold back?

Stoic

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Would you say WBH doesn't hold back?

I don't think that WB was holding back, due to the enchantment placed on Betty. However this does not mean that he was at the limits of how powerful he could become. The Hulk gets his power from an extra-dimensional and unknown source.

keiththegreat

Who's the most powerful person that WBH has beaten?

-Pr-

Originally posted by Stoic
But DC is notorious for discontinuity (hence the crisis, and hard reboot).

I think you have that the other way around.

keiththegreat

It seems to me that even if WBH had a strength and durability advantage that it would be minimal, it's not enough to overcome Superman's other abilities, especially speed. And if we were to speculate that WBH could get stronger, wouldn't that be another, so far UNKNOWN version of the Hulk?

i.e., Savage Hulk ->WWH -> WBH -> Next level Hulk

So WWH is a madder version of Savage Hulk. When WWH gets mad enough he turns to WBH, etc.

So really, it's not fair to extrapolate WBH's abilities to higher levels, without calling this "new Hulk" something else.

If we're talking about WBH, we can only go by what we've seen on panel for him, not speculate as to how much more powerful he can become.

Damborgson

Originally posted by keiththegreat
Who's the most powerful person that WBH has beaten?

Armageddon? I think.

Stoic

He's beaten several powerful Herald level beings to embarrassment. Fin Fang Foom whose wings once threatened to topple a mountain, and blew Ironman and War Machine around like toys. Arm'Cheddon, whose power was often used to destabilize his opponent, which included the Silver Surfer. He was also from a race of beings that possessed Hulk-like strength.

Bi Beast once wrestled against Thor, and even defeated the Savage Hulk. They were all useless to him. These are guys that could lift up DC-10's and toss them. Would you agree that Bi-Beast would give Sasquatch a huge fight? Wendigo made him scream like a sissy in the past. I mean to ignore that type of power, with the promise of being able to become even more powerful than that? What was the weakest guy that punched an enraged Superman making him hurtle across the city?

Stoic

When did Superman ever have a collision with an equal power to his own, that indirectly made a planet explode? I saw Darkseid kick him through a barn, and bruise him. Come on now. I don't see Kal KO'ing WB at the height of his power. But I also cant see the Hulk hitting Superman, unless he attempts to bulldog a superior strength class which would result in making him look like he did when he did the same to Synnar during the Hardcore Station arc. If the Hulk layed into him at that level, DOS would happen all over again.

Damborgson

Well to be fair his collisions have caused reality to start breaking apart. Reality under flux or not it's pretty impressive.

Horrificus

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Enough where if they went toe to toe in a physical fight, Thor isn't going to last very long at all. Whaaaa?

psycho gundam

These threads bring out the worst in people/loved charactersOriginally posted by Damborgson
Armageddon? I think. yes, however he and the others were leaves in wind before hulk even though he was holding back

PillarofOsiris

Originally posted by Stoic
When did Superman ever have a collision with an equal power to his own, that indirectly made a planet explode?

I don't have time to answer ur whole post because I need to get to bed, but superman and general zod destroyed a planet as a by product of their fight, and superman on his own has destroyed moons, but keep in mind superman is not the kind of hero who would usually let a planet get destroyed. Oh and the maggedon feat.... That was the equivalent of 320 EARTHS.... Much more impressive IMO.

Stoic

Originally posted by Damborgson
Well to be fair his collisions have caused reality to start breaking apart. Reality under flux or not it's pretty impressive.

So it wasn't normal reality then?

Damborgson

Originally posted by psycho gundam
yes, however he and the others were leaves in wind before hulk even though he was holding back Well yeah they were all non factors to him. Armageddon was just the strongest/most powerful of the bunch.

Damborgson

Originally posted by Stoic
So it wasn't normal reality then?

It's been a while since I've read it. Something was going on with reality and Kal-el and Kal-l were going at it. Reality was falling apart or being rearranged with every hit or something similar.

Stoic

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I don't have time to answer ur whole post because I need to get to bed, but superman and general zod destroyed a planet as a by product of their fight, and superman on his own has destroyed moons, but keep in mind superman is not the kind of hero who would usually let a planet get destroyed. Oh and the maggedon feat.... That was the equivalent of 320 EARTHS.... Much more impressive IMO.

This is something and if this is true, it would mean that Captain Marvel is also at this level, and Despero, whoa let's not even get into what level of power he is on. There must be some form of a medium with Superman, because I really can't understand the idea of him surviving that much guff, only to be wailed on, bleeding and KO'd by Despero by less than park shattering force. So should we go by Superman's medium, and more consistent, or his one timers? If Despero isn't enough lets talk Magog, and how even before he lanced Superman, Supes was unable to put him down, or resist being overpowered and ejected from the ground? What about the shot that Atlas gave him?

Anyways I'm about to crash too. Work in the morning.

quanchi112

Originally posted by Stoic
So it wasn't normal reality then? Nope, not at all.

-Pr-

Originally posted by Stoic
This is something and if this is true, it would mean that Captain Marvel is also at this level, and Despero, whoa let's not even get into what level of power he is on. There must be some form of a medium with Superman, because I really can't understand the idea of him surviving that much guff, only to be wailed on, bleeding and KO'd by Despero by less than park shattering force. So should we go by Superman's medium, and more consistent, or his one timers? If Despero isn't enough lets talk Magog, and how even before he lanced Superman, Supes was unable to put him down, or resist being overpowered and ejected from the ground? What about the shot that Atlas gave him?

Anyways I'm about to crash too. Work in the morning.

Why would Superman being that powerful mean Despero was too?

The only time he's been KO'd by Despero in recent memory was during Virtue and Vice. He's stalemated him and beaten him in other fights.

Magog? Superman was doing fine against him in their initial encounter. And then, later, a weakened Superman was taking on multiple copies single-handed.

Atlas had help.

Naija boy

Originally posted by Damborgson
Well to be fair his collisions have caused reality to start breaking apart. Reality under flux or not it's pretty impressive.

Impressive yes but such feats are pretty hard to quantify both based on their nature and in this case the context surrounding it. Not very useful in comparisons

Stoic

Originally posted by Damborgson
It's been a while since I've read it. Something was going on with reality and Kal-el and Kal-l were going at it. Reality was falling apart or being rearranged with every hit or something similar.

You know that the Savage Hulk has feats like that as well? Ripping open dimensions magical or otherwise. There was a lot of power being displayed in the Dark Dimension, I mean it lit the entire place up, and it's usually supposed to be dark, hence the name.

Ask yourself this if the Hulk and Betty leaped (all muscle power) at speeds great enough that they indirectly made a planet explode at the very least. If you consider their size, how fast would they have had to leap, to become massive enough to displace a planetary object of near Earth size or greater? Superman flies, so this is not a direct strength feat where he is concerned. Could Superman with a leap do that? How could this be if he needed help to tug a planet?

Stoic

Originally posted by -Pr-
Why would Superman being that powerful mean Despero was too?

The only time he's been KO'd by Despero in recent memory was during Virtue and Vice. He's stalemated him and beaten him in other fights.

Magog? Superman was doing fine against him in their initial encounter. And then, later, a weakened Superman was taking on multiple copies single-handed.

Atlas had help.

You're missing the point, WB Hulk fought guys that could punch Superman across the city, maybe not beat him, but he would have to tussle a bit with them. WB Hulk did not notice them, and even after was seen far more powerful than he was when they ineffectually hit him with all of their might. Superman would not be able to stand there like that without being moved in his more consistent showings. The same goes for Magog, he did not shift the kind of weight that WB Hulk could do by casually dropping his foot. In a pure strength contest Superman is way behind in this, and the gap has the ability to grow. Gotta pass out. later.

Damborgson

Originally posted by Naija boy
Impressive yes but such feats are pretty hard to quantify both based on their nature and in this case the context surrounding it. Not very useful in comparisons

True enough. It's hard or impossible to quantify. The reason I see it as impressive is because it goes beyond damaging physical aspects of reality and starts damaging reality itself. But due to how reality was in flux at the time however much force was needed to start breaking reality is anyone's guess.

-Pr-

Originally posted by Stoic
You're missing the point, WB Hulk fought guys that could punch Superman across the city, maybe not beat him, but he would have to tussle a bit with them. WB Hulk did not notice them, and even after was seen far more powerful than he was when they ineffectually hit him with all of their might. Superman would not be able to stand there like that without being moved in his more consistent showings. The same goes for Magog, he did not shift the kind of weight that WB Hulk could do by casually dropping his foot. In a pure strength contest Superman is way behind in this, and the gap has the ability to grow. Gotta pass out. later.

I'm not missing the point; I'm just not arguing that he could beat this Hulk.

Superman weighs less than three hundred pounds. Even a normal cl100 can punch him across a city.

Damborgson

Originally posted by Stoic
You know that the Savage Hulk has feats like that as well? Ripping open dimensions magical or otherwise. There was a lot of power being displayed in the Dark Dimension, I mean it lit the entire place up, and it's usually supposed to be dark, hence the name.

Ask yourself this if the Hulk and Betty leaped (all muscle power) at speeds great enough that they indirectly made a planet explode at the very least. If you consider their size, how fast would they have had to leap, to become massive enough to displace a planetary object of near Earth size or greater? Superman flies, so this is not a direct strength feat where he is concerned. Could Superman with a leap do that? How could this be if he needed help to tug a planet?

I'm sure he does, but I've never actually seen a scan of him doing something like that. I've heard of feats like that on his part on the forum and seen some other equally impressive showings but not any reality breaking scans or anything. I'm not saying it because they are necessary to contend with superman's feats or something just saying I've never seen a scan of savage Hulk doing is all.

Well in my opinion it's harder to tug a planet than it is to destroy it. Indirectly or not.

It's like if you planted charges next to a building and they were powerful enough to blow it up and then some. Impressive power. But then someone else planted charges underneath the building and shot it into space. Which would you find more impressive? Might not be the best example. -shrug-