Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

What argument could possibly be made for young Frank to win?

I'd like to finally read some Franklin Richards. Anyone have issue numbers for these arcs?

Adult Franklin is FAR superior.

to me my galactus

Originally posted by Galan007
Adult Franklin is FAR superior.

Yet he needed to amp himself with his younger self's power in order to kill a 4280-Celestial . And it didn't occur to him to simply warp the Celestials's offensive blasts into flowers(or anything harmless) , which little Franklin did using only SOME of his power :

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8685/ff1410f.jpg

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
I'd like to finally read some Franklin Richards. Anyone have issue numbers for these arcs?

F4#582-F4#604

For FF(Future Foundation) , I only know #14,15 and 16 in which he has some major appearances . You could ask Doon or Galan for the rest .

Originally posted by guy222
to me my galactus

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Yet he needed to amp himself with his younger self's power in order to kill a 4280-Celestial . And it didn't occur to him to simply warp the Celestials's offensive blasts into flowers(or anything harmless) , which little Franklin did using only SOME of his power :

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8685/ff1410f.jpg

Actually, he only used the sphere representing young Franklin's powers to resurrect Galactus. That is all. There was no amp. (Notice how the sphere AF took from young Franklin only appears when he is ready to summon the Big G.) That said, Adult Franklin definitely takes this. It's obvious how much more experienced he is than his younger counterpart.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/102264/2244262-fantasticfour_604_thegroup_016.jpg

Originally posted by Doon
Actually, he only used the sphere representing young Franklin's powers to resurrect Galactus. That is all. There was no amp. (Notice how the sphere AF took from young Franklin only appears when he is ready to summon the Big G.) That said, Adult Franklin definitely takes this. It's obvious how much more experienced he is than his younger counterpart.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/102264/2244262-fantasticfour_604_thegroup_016.jpg

I'd actually have to disagree with you here . Here , after getting the orb , he glows with power(I hope I am not missing a page in between) :
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/6676/ff08.jpghttp://img846.imageshack.us/img846/8581/ff10h.jpg

So , it is apparent that he was being amped by some of that power , if not all .

Seriously though , now that I have begun to re-read that entire issue , Franklin's statements seem to contradict Nathaniel's
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1700/ff07.jpghttp://img96.imageshack.us/img96/228/ff12w.jpg

So its clear that Nathaniel's conjecture is in outright contradiction Franklin's proclamation . Whose words do we take as the truth ?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I'd actually have to disagree with you here . Here , after getting the orb , he glows with power(I hope I am not missing a page in between) :
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/6676/ff08.jpghttp://img846.imageshack.us/img846/8581/ff10h.jpg

So , it is apparent that he was being amped by some of that power , if not all .

AF was already glowing with power when he and Valeria first arrived at the scene. On that page, in addition to the one you've shown above, he displayed that energy output specifically when he was aloft or during flight.

https://annihilusssl.sslcs.cdngc.net/i/0889/21935/76fc280a5bb210c4ed5f57c3efaa9fa9.jpg?h=b01c08b1e381325579f70c47c66cb4b3

The way I look at it, here are the facts:

1) Adult Franklin acquires the orb containing young Franklin's powers.
2) Adult Franklin uses the same orb for the purpose of resurrecting Galactus.

If AF was already amped by the orb's power, I don't think the artist would have explicitly crafted a scene where we see AF remove the orb from his body at the precise moment he needed/desired to use it. Follow what I'm getting at? If he was already amped by the power in the fight, he could have just willed Galactus to rise w/o having extracted the orb. So, in my opinion, there was no amp involved. I mean.. it's possible, but that's only based on speculation.

Originally posted by Cogito
What argument could possibly be made for young Frank to win?

A pretty absurd debate. Young Franklin will eventually overtake Adult Franklin because the inevitable future of a doomed Earth was finally altered.

But in the meantime Adult version wins.

Originally posted by Doon
AF was already glowing with power when he and Valeria first arrived at the scene. On that page, in addition to the one you've shown above, he displayed that energy output specifically when he was aloft or during flight.

https://annihilusssl.sslcs.cdngc.net/i/0889/21935/76fc280a5bb210c4ed5f57c3efaa9fa9.jpg?h=b01c08b1e381325579f70c47c66cb4b3

The way I look at it, here are the facts:

1) Adult Franklin acquires the orb containing young Franklin's powers.
2) Adult Franklin uses the same orb for the purpose of resurrecting Galactus.

If AF was already amped by the orb's power, I don't think the artist would have explicitly crafted a scene where we see AF remove the orb from his body at the precise moment he needed/desired to use it. Follow what I'm getting at? If he was already amped by the power in the fight, he could have just willed Galactus to rise w/o having extracted the orb. So, in my opinion, there was no amp involved. I mean.. it's possible, but that's only based on speculation.

I was just browsing a heated debate going on between two posters on comicvine regarding the events that happened in F4#604 , and the pro-Franklin guy(Hyper_God) shared most of your points , and made pretty good arguments to support his claims(although I sure as hell didn't appreciate him referring to me as an idiot) , and the only point I would disagree with him about was his claim that the Mad Celestials didn't want to take over the multiverse :
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/battle-of-the-abstract-level-beings/668697/?page=4

Come to think of it Doon , that scan you showed of Val and Franklin glowing with power , is exactly the same scan which that Hyper_God dude showed in that thread I just linked , to counter his opponent's claim that adult Franklin was amped by the blue orb .

I am beginning to wonder , is that you ?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Come to think of it Doon , that scan you showed of Val and Franklin glowing with power , is exactly the same scan which that Hyper_God dude showed in that thread I just linked , to counter his opponent's claim that adult Franklin was amped by the blue orb .

I am beginning to wonder , is that you ?

Heh. No, that's not me.

It's pretty interesting that others have been having similar discussions on different message boards though. I haven't read HG's comments, but it's nice to know that I'm not alone in my view. No reason for him to call you an idiot though. Then again, his name is Hyper. lol

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Yet he needed to amp himself with his younger self's power in order to kill a 4280-Celestial . this

Originally posted by Reacting2
this

AF extracted (and utilized) the orb containing young Frank's powers only when he was ready to summon Galactus. AF was not enhanced by said orb. Galactus (who was also similarly exposed to the orb) was not enhanced (only brought back) by it.

Originally posted by Doon
Heh. No, that's not me.

It's pretty interesting that others have been having similar discussions on different message boards though. I haven't read HG's comments, but it's nice to know that I'm not alone in my view. No reason for him to call you an idiot though. Then again, his name is Hyper. lol

I once accidentally posted an entire comic on that forum , he was calling me an idiot for that . He referred to a couple of other ex-posters of comicvine in a derogatory fashion as well , so I am not really surprised at this .
However , I agree it can't possibly be you because the ego and self-bragging he showed would make quan seem modest in comparison .

It can't be denied though that he did make some pretty good points , and the only thing that I don't agree with him on was the Mad Celestials' original intention to take over the multiverse .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
the only thing that I don't agree with him on was the Mad Celestials' original intention to take over the multiverse .

Yeah, I don't think that was ever explicitly stated. Then again, I do remember something about the Celestials wanting to take over the Council of Reeds because their umm.. headquarters or whatever led to all divergent realities. So that idea sort of makes sense. I wish Hickman himself visited the boards.

Originally posted by Doon
Yeah, I don't think that was ever explicitly stated. Then again, I do remember something about the Celestials wanting to take over the Council of Reeds because their umm.. headquarters or whatever led to all divergent realities. So that idea sort of makes sense. I wish Hickman himself visited the boards.

Actually this scan very clearly implies that the Mad Celestials' original intention was indeed the conquest of the multiverse :

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2430312-ff_572_003_super.jpg

Bighead Reed : "They want the Council as a staging area for conquest ."
Mad Celestial : "This place leads to all others . We would have all of it...."

The Bridge was basically a pocket space between all realities , so its not inconceivable from the above statements , that the Mad Gods wanted to take over the multiverse .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Actually this scan very clearly implies that the Mad Celestials' original intention was indeed the conquest of the multiverse :

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2430312-ff_572_003_super.jpg

Bighead Reed : "They want the Council as a staging area for conquest ."
Mad Celestial : "This place leads to all others . We would have all of it...."

The Bridge was basically a pocket space between all realities , so its not inconceivable from the above statements , that the Mad Gods wanted to take over the multiverse .

Indeed. I vaguely remembered that scene and wasn't sure if it was explicitly stated. Apparently, it was though. And now, it's all in the hands of the Parliament of Doom right? Uh oh.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Yet he needed to amp himself with his younger self's power in order to kill a 4280-Celestial . I used to believe this. Now it seems quite clear to me that kid Frank's power was used primarily/solely to resurrect Galactus--the orb was summoned/sent specifically by adult Frank for that task, after all:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420053_f1.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420054_f2.jpg

And since adult Frank killed a Ceelstial after G was resurrected, there is absolutely no evidence he needed young Franklin's energies.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
And it didn't occur to him to simply warp the Celestials's offensive blasts into flowers(or anything harmless) , which little Franklin did using only SOME of his power : Though it is a great feat, kid Franklin warping a single attack from the Celestial doesn't mean much at all in the way of proof that he was superior to his adult self, tbh. When said Celestial initially attacked kid Franklin, it/they had not yet come to the realization that he was a reality manipulator:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420056_r0.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420057_r1.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420058_r2.jpg

If they would have realized this from the get-go, their attacks would have been much different--and likely much more powerful.

Remember, they were well aware that adult Franklin was a reality manipulator on a universal scale when he first popped in--hell, they even knew his arrival meant imminent "doom" for them:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420055_f3.jpg

...Yet they still attacked him with energy blasts (blasts he tanked, btw):
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420071_f4.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420072_f5.jpg

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Actually this scan very clearly implies that the Mad Celestials' original intention was indeed the conquest of the multiverse :

Bighead Reed : "They want the Council as a staging area for conquest ."
Mad Celestial : "This place leads to all others . We would have all of it...."

The Bridge was basically a pocket space between all realities , so its not inconceivable from the above statements , that the Mad Gods wanted to take over the multiverse . Just to remind you, the Celestials attacked the Council's temple, because from there, they were able to track down, and kill, each and every member of the Council of Reeds:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420086_r3.jpg

By the time they arrived at the 616 reality, however, 616 Reed was the only Reed left:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420085_f6.jpg
Mad Celestial: "Success/triumph/access achieved. The final renegade/interloper/anarchist is here. I sense him/it. Engaging in annihilation/illimination. NOW."


Again, the Mad Celestials' only goal was to eliminate all of the Reeds in the Council. Their actions were having too much of an impact on creation. Multiversal conquest was never their intent.

Originally posted by Galan007
I used to believe this. Now it seems quite clear to me that kid Frank's power was used primarily/solely to resurrect Galactus--the orb was summoned/sent specifically by adult Frank for that task, after all:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420053_f1.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420054_f2.jpg

And since adult Frank killed a Celestial after G was resurrected, there is absolutely no evidence he needed young Franklin's energies.

Though it is a great feat, kid Franklin warping a single attack from the Celestial doesn't mean much at all in the way of proof that he was superior to his adult self, tbh. When said Celestial initially attacked kid Franklin, it/they had not yet come to the realization that he was a reality manipulator:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420056_r0.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420057_r1.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420058_r2.jpg

If they would have realized this from the get-go, their attacks would have been much different--and likely much more powerful.

Remember, they were well aware that adult Franklin was a reality manipulator on a universal scale when he first popped in--hell, they even knew his arrival meant imminent "doom" for them:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420055_f3.jpg

...Yet they still attacked him with energy blasts (blasts he tanked, btw):
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420071_f4.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420072_f5.jpg

All that is nice and well Galan , but did you not yourself claim in the original Galactus VS Celestials thread that adult Franklin having to kill himself in order to destroy the final Celestial(Eson) , as compared to him killing the his first Celestial , indicated that he was being amped ? Unless and until you have changed your position about adult Franklin's supposed "death" , then I see your original line of reasoning more logical than what you are presenting now .

Originally posted by Galan007

Just to remind you, the Celestials attacked the Council's temple, because from there, they were able to track down, and kill, each and every member of the Council of Reeds:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420086_r3.jpg

By the time they arrived at the 616 reality, however, 616 Reed was the only Reed left:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420085_f6.jpg
Mad Celestial: "Success/triumph/access achieved. The final renegade/interloper/anarchist is here. I sense him/it. Engaging in annihilation/illimination. NOW."


Again, the Mad Celestials' only goal was to eliminate all of the Reeds in the Council. Their actions were having too much of an impact on creation. Multiversal conquest was never their intent.
This scan tells a different story :
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2430312-ff_572_003_super.jpg

Bighead Reed : "They want the Council as a staging area for conquest ."
Mad Celestial : "This place leads to all others . We would have all of it...."

The scan which you presented , takes place BEFORE those Mad Celestials were reduced in numbers from god-knows-how-many-there-were-originally to 4 .

Its not unreasonable to assume that with so many of their brethren killed , their numbers reduced drastically , their species essentially becoming endangered , they may have renounced multiversal conquest and set their goal as solely the extermination of all remaining Reeds as revenge(its not unreasonable at all to assume such , considering their mental state to begin with) .

I don't care what you guys say, Franklin takes this.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
All that is nice and well Galan , but did you not yourself claim in the original Galactus VS Celestials thread that adult Franklin having to kill himself in order to destroy the final Celestial(Eson) , as compared to him killing the his first Celestial , indicated that he was being amped ? Unless and until you have changed your position about adult Franklin's supposed "death" , then I see your original line of reasoning more logical than what you are presenting now . My opinion has changed (see the first sentence of my previous post.) Taking the entire story into context, it's pretty obvious that kid Franklin's power was used solely by adult Frank to resurrect Galactus.

I believe that adult Frank was able to kill the first Celestial far easier than he was able to kill Eson for one of two reasons:
a.) Eson was simply THAT much more powerful than the first Celestial Frank destroyed.
or
b.) Frank's power had diminished significantly due to combating multiple Celestials simultaneously.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
This scan tells a different story :

Bighead Reed : "They want the Council as a staging area for conquest ."
Mad Celestial : "This place leads to all others . We would have all of it...."

The scan which you presented , takes place BEFORE those Mad Celestials were reduced in numbers from god-knows-how-many-there-were-originally to 4 .

Its not unreasonable to assume that with so many of their brethren killed , their numbers reduced drastically , their species essentially becoming endangered , they may have renounced multiversal conquest and set their goal as solely the extermination of all remaining Reeds as revenge(its not unreasonable at all to assume such , considering their mental state to begin with) . The scan takes place AFTER, actually. Furthermore, you're assuming that their numbers dwindling forced the Celestials to abandon their alleged quest for multiversal supremacy, and instead opt to simply track down/kill all of the Reeds? I can't agree, because that was never stated. What was stated (by the Celestials themselves) is that killing the Council was their primary/sole goal:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420085_f6.jpg
Mad Celestial: "Success/triumph/access achieved. The final renegade/interloper/anarchist is here. I sense him/it. Engaging in annihilation/illimination. NOW."

Multiversal domination never seemed like the Celestials' intent. Ever. It could have been, but I don't see why killing every single member of the Council (a task they literally went out of their way to accomplish) would have taken so much precedence...

Originally posted by Galan007
My opinion has changed (see the first sentence of my previous post.) Taking the entire story into context, it's pretty obvious that kid Franklin's power was used solely by adult Frank to resurrect Galactus.

I believe that adult Frank was able to kill the first Celestial far easier than he was able to kill Eson for one of two reasons:
a.) Eson was simply THAT much more powerful than the first Celestial Frank destroyed.
or
b.) Frank's power had diminished significantly due to combating multiple Celestials simultaneously.

Or there can be a third option : Adult Franklin used some(not all) of the blue orb's power , which enabled him to destroy that other Celestial completely . He used it in such an amount , so that enough was left to recharge Galactus as well .

Originally posted by Galan007

The scan takes place AFTER, actually. Furthermore, you're assuming that their numbers dwindling forced the Celestials to abandon their alleged quest for multiversal supremacy, and instead opt to simply track down/kill all of the Reeds? I can't agree, because that was never stated. What was stated (by the Celestials themselves) is that killing the Council was their primary/sole goal:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420085_f6.jpg
Mad Celestial: "Success/triumph/access achieved. The final renegade/interloper/anarchist is here. I sense him/it. Engaging in annihilation/illimination. NOW."

Multiversal domination never seemed like the Celestials' intent. Ever. It could have been, but I don't see why killing every single member of the Council (a task they literally went out of their way to accomplish) would have taken so much precedence...
As far as the BEFORE-AFTER issue is concerned....yeah you're right , that was my bad .
The scan itself however implies that the Mad Celestials , upon first entering the Bridge , did so with the intention of multiversal conquest . These statements :
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2430312-ff_572_003_super.jpg
Bighead Reed : "They want the Council as a staging area for conquest ."
Mad Celestial : "This place leads to all others . We would have all of it...."
,seem to suggest that their ORIGINAL INTENT was to take over all of the multiverse(what else could it have been , considering that the Bridge is a pocket space which lies between all realities) .
Killing every member of the Council would have taken precedence , mainly because of the Council's defiance towards the Celestials's demands to kneel before them and gain favor , and then the Reeds' counterattack which reduced Celestial numbers to 4 . Combine the fact that they were critically endangered plus the fact that it was the Reeds who made them critically endangered to begin with, plus their own madness , and we get hardcore vengeance .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Or there can be a third option : Adult Franklin used some(not all) of the blue orb's power , which enabled him to destroy that other Celestial completely . He used it in such an amount , so that enough was left to recharge Galactus as well .

There can be multiple options WHEN ONE SPECULATES, but I think keeping things within a certain frame is important to the efficacy of interpreting events properly. Although Galan and I have disagreed in the past, I think we try our best to base our decisions on what has been shown or explicitly stated on panel. And like I said, Hickman and Epting specifically created a scene that shows AF extracting the orb from his body at the precise moment he chose to utilize its power.

Again, here are the solid facts:

1) AF acquires the orb from YF
2) AF extracts the same orb to resurrect Galactus

Those facts are indisputable.

Now, by your logic, the orb could have enhanced AF's power level simply because he was exposed to it. If someone else chooses to SPECULATE even further, he/she could say that the orb similarly empowered Galactus as well. They could even say that Galactus was using all of YF's powers since he was the recipient of the orb right? See what I'm getting at here? Speculation can take you to the moon and back! lol That's why we try to go by the solid facts.

I think AF drew it out from himself, just like YF did.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I think AF drew it out from himself, just like YF did.

Off-panel, Galactus then withdrew YF's orb from himself and shared some of it with his other heralds.

Starfire: "Damn, that's some good s%@&!"
Galactus: "Indeed. Without it, I couldn't possibly beat that Celestial! Brought me back to life too -- just like Frosty!"
Silver Surfer: "Hey! Let me have some! I want to be all-powerful too!"

YF: "Wow. It's like the amp that keeps on giving! Who's awesome? Me! It's me! I.. AM... AWESOME!!!"

Originally posted by Doon
There can be multiple options WHEN ONE SPECULATES, but I think keeping things within a certain frame is important to the efficacy of interpreting events properly. Although Galan and I have disagreed in the past, I think we try our best to base our decisions on what has been shown or explicitly stated on panel. And like I said, Hickman and Epting specifically created a scene that shows AF extracting the orb from his body at the precise moment he chose to utilize its power.

Again, here are the solid facts:

1) AF acquires the orb from YF
2) AF extracts the same orb to resurrect Galactus

Those facts are indisputable.

Now, by your logic, the orb could have enhanced AF's power level simply because he was exposed to it. If someone else chooses to SPECULATE even further, he/she could say that the orb similarly empowered Galactus as well. They could even say that Galactus was using all of YF's powers since he was the recipient of the orb right? See what I'm getting at here? Speculation can take you to the moon and back! lol That's why we try to go by the solid facts.

Don't worry , the Mad Eson making Galactus howl:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/12/123075/2432181-ff604_22.jpg
has convinced me that Eson was (considerably) stronger than the other Mad Celestials .

Based on that I have already changed my opinion . Adult Franklin wasn't amped by young Franklin .

Also Doon , isaac_clarke , the guy on comicvine whom Hyper_God was arguing against , claimed that adult Franklin in fact created a NEW orb to revive Galactus . And he was pretty adamant on it . Just goes to show what poor debaters comicvine regulars are .

Originally posted by Doon
Off-panel, Galactus then withdrew YF's orb from himself and shared some of it with his other heralds.

Starfire: "Damn, that's some good s%@&!"
Galactus: "Indeed. Without it, I couldn't possibly beat that Celestial! Brought me back to life too -- just like Frosty!"
Silver Surfer: "Hey! Let me have some! I want to be all-powerful too!"

YF: "Wow. It's like the amp that keeps on giving! Who's awesome? Me! It's me! I.. AM... AWESOME!!!"

My point is that I can understand why people have the impression that AF used some power from his younger self based on the way the power was given, saved and later reintroduced.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Or there can be a third option : Adult Franklin used some(not all) of the blue orb's power , which enabled him to destroy that other Celestial completely . He used it in such an amount , so that enough was left to recharge Galactus as well . That's quite speculatory.

What we saw happen is Franklin take the orb of power into himself. When the time was right, he extracted it in order to resurrect Galactus. At no point was it stated/shown/alluded to that he was tapping the orb's power whilst combating the Celestials initially.

Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from (I used to think the same thing) but there is simply no way to prove it.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
As far as the BEFORE-AFTER issue is concerned....yeah you're right , that was my bad .
The scan itself however implies that the Mad Celestials , upon first entering the Bridge , did so with the intention of multiversal conquest . These statements :

Bighead Reed : "They want the Council as a staging area for conquest ."
Mad Celestial : "This place leads to all others . We would have all of it...." You can stop posting that oversized scan now. I know what you are talking about--you've posting it like 3 times on the same page.

Anyway, you're suggesting that the Celestials originally set out to conquer the multiverse, but ultimately settled with destroying the Council of Reeds alone? Considering those equate to infinitely different goals, that is a hard pill for me to swallow. When you look at the entire context of the story, destroying the Council of Reeds seemed to always be the Celestials' primary intent, with any other agendas taking the back burner--hence their comments when they found 616 Reed: "SUCCESS ACHIEVED. THE FINAL RENEGADE IS HERE..."

Success achieved.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
seem to suggest that their ORIGINAL INTENT was to take over all of the multiverse(what else could it have been , considering that the Bridge is a pocket space which lies between all realities) .
Killing every member of the Council would have taken precedence , mainly because of the Council's defiance towards the Celestials's demands to kneel before them and gain favor , and then the Reeds' counterattack which reduced Celestial numbers to 4 . Combine the fact that they were critically endangered plus the fact that it was the Reeds who made them critically endangered to begin with, plus their own madness , and we get hardcore vengeance . I disagree. Taking ALL context of the story into consideration (not just a single comment), destroying the Council ALWAYS seemed to be what the Celestials were most concerned with. Hell, not only did they go out of their way to 'acquire' every Reed, but they would even give other characters a chance to live even if they were helping the Reeds (they gave both Doom and kid Franklin the option to 'step aside and live', after all)--that doesn't sound like the methods of multiversal conquerors to me... They ONLY seemed to care about slaying the Reeds.

Additionally, you seem to be of the opinion that the Celestials' numbers diminished significantly from the time they first encountered the Council, to the time they arrived near earth. You happen to know what their original numbers were? Because the way I see it, even just those 4 remaining Celestials would have been able to conquer the multiverse without much opposition, if that would have been their primary goal--especially if they merged. I can't think of many other beings below Eternity who would be capable of casually one-shotting Galactus amped by 4 worlds. The merged Celestial would have also been FAR superior to even adult Franklin--a universal reality manipulator. So yeah... /shrug

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
has convinced me that Eson was (considerably) stronger than the other Mad Celestials .

Based on that I have already changed my opinion . Adult Franklin wasn't amped by young Franklin . Just saw this. Cool beans.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's quite speculatory.

What we saw happen is Franklin take the orb of power into himself. When the time was right, he extracted it in order to resurrect Galactus. At no point was it stated/shown/alluded to that he was tapping the orb's power whilst combating the Celestials initially.

Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from (I used to think the same thing) but there is simply no way to prove it.

This issue has already been resolved .

Originally posted by Galan007

You can stop posting that oversized scan now. I know what you are talking about--you've posting it like 3 times on the same page.

Anyway, you're suggesting that the Celestials originally set out to conquer the multiverse, but ultimately settled with destroying the Council of Reeds alone? Considering those equate to infinitely different goals, that is a hard pill for me to swallow. When you look at the entire context of the story, destroying the Council of Reeds seemed to always be the Celestials' primary intent, with any other agendas taking the back burner--hence Eson's comment when he found 616 Reed: "SUCCESS ACHIEVED. THE FINAL RENEGADE IS HERE..."

Success achieved.

Again , I am talking about their original intention , Galan .
Tell me , originally did those Celestials want to use the Bridge as a staging area for conquest or not ?
Also , did not one of those Celestials themselves claim "This place leads to all others.We would have all of it." ?
Did that same Celestial not then demand that the Reeds bow down and gain forgiveness/favor ?
Does the above statement from said Celestial imply that they invaded the Bridge solely for the purpose of eliminating the Reeds ?

Originally posted by Galan007

I disagree. Taking ALL context of the story into consideration (not just a single comment), destroying the Council ALWAYS seemed to be what the Celestials were most concerned with. Hell, not only did they go out of their way to 'acquire' every Reed, but they would even give other characters a chance to live even if they were helping the Reeds (they gave both Doom and kid Franklin the option to 'step aside and live', after all)--that doesn't sound like the methods of multiversal conquerors to me... They ONLY seemed to care about slaying the Reeds.
The point here is that originally their intent was portrayed as using the Bridge as a staging area for conquering all there is . Hickman often speaks in riddles , in his stories , but in this case one can't any clearer than that . It was shown that the Bridge was a pocket space between all realities , and it was shown that the Celestials originally wanted to use it because "this place leads to all others, we would have all of it" . Again , if their primary goal was just the elimination of the Reeds , then that Arishem-wannabe wouldn't have demanded that Reeds "kneel and gain favor/forgiveness" .
That bigheaded telepath Reed would have made an observation something like this :
"Madness...Madness....They have invaded the Council for the elimination of every Reed throughout existence.....something about our work here repulses them.They've noticed me."
I understand that Hickman has tried to imply in the SHIELD arc that the "Solve Everything" objective/idea/concept is what apparently drives a Celestial mad , and that could be used to explain the Mad Celestials' apparent obsession with the Reeds , but how does that explain away the original panels in which the statements of both the Bighead Reed and the Mad-Arishem imply that the 4280-Celestials intended to conquer all realities ?

Originally posted by Galan007

Additionally, you seem to be of the opinion that the Celestials' numbers diminished significantly from the time they first encountered the Council, to the time they arrived near earth. You happen to know what their original numbers were? Because the way I see it, even just those 4 remaining Celestials would have been able to conquer the multiverse without much opposition, if that would have been their primary goal--especially if they merged. I can't think of many other beings below Eternity who would be capable of casually one-shotting Galactus amped by 4 worlds. /shrug
Except for the fact that by declaring all out war for conquest on a reality , they would also invoke the ire of their alternate brethren from , who should logically go on to confront their mad counterparts . Think about it Galan , 4 Mad Celestials would actually try and invade just one universe , never mind the entire multiverse , and get away without having to engage an entire race of beings similar to themselves ? Why exactly did Hickman not portray it that way : because of the plot . It is quite surprising though that the Dreaming Celestial wasn't portrayed , seeing how Hickman loves to incorporate plot points from other writers' stories into his own , and the Dreaming Celestial along with the rest of the Host had made an appearance just a couple of issues prior , in Uncanny X-Men .
Btw , a man-made weapon was able to split them back into 3 , and could have gone on to (possibly) destroy them as well , had it not threatened to ravage Earth as well . So , I doubt that 4 Mad Celestials on their own could actually conquer the multiverse .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Again , I am talking about their original intention , Galan .
Tell me , originally did those Celestials want to use the Bridge as a staging area for conquest or not ?
Also , did not one of those Celestials themselves claim "This place leads to all others.We would have all of it." ?
Did that same Celestial not then demand that the Reeds bow down and gain forgiveness/favor ?
Does the above statement from said Celestial imply that they invaded the Bridge solely for the purpose of eliminating the Reeds ?

The point here is that originally their intent was portrayed as using the Bridge as a staging area for conquering all there is . Hickman often speaks in riddles , in his stories , but in this case one can't any clearer than that . It was shown that the Bridge was a pocket space between all realities , and it was shown that the Celestials originally wanted to use it because "this place leads to all others, we would have all of it" . Again , if their primary goal was just the elimination of the Reeds , then that Arishem-wannabe wouldn't have demanded that Reeds "kneel and gain favor/forgiveness" .
That bigheaded telepath Reed would have made an observation something like this :
"Madness...Madness....They have invaded the Council for the elimination of every Reed throughout existence.....something about our work here repulses them.They've noticed me." No, what you're talking about is a single statement in lieu of ALL context.

The entire story taken into context, painted a picture that the Celestials were concerned with eradicating the Reeds FIRST. Any other agendas they may have had certainly didn't take precedence over killing the Council of Reeds. As the Celestials said: "SUCCESS ACHIEVED. THE FINAL RENEGADE IS HERE..." Killing the Reeds was their primary task/purpose/goal.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I understand that Hickman has tried to imply in the SHIELD arc that the "Solve Everything" objective/idea/concept is what apparently drives a Celestial mad , and that could be used to explain the Mad Celestials' apparent obsession with the Reeds , but how does that explain away the original panels in which the statements of both the Bighead Reed and the Mad-Arishem imply that the 4280-Celestials intended to conquer all realities ? Despite that comment, the Celestials never attempted to conquer the multiverse--they ONLY went after the Reeds. That's it. I'm not saying multiversal conquest wasn't one of their goals--I'm just saying that on panel, it was secondary to destroying the Reeds.

Sidenote: I LOVE how Hickman used SHIELD to set up events in F4/FF. A genius, he is.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Except for the fact that by declaring all out war for conquest on a reality , they would also invoke the ire of their alternate brethren from , who should logically go on to confront their mad counterparts . Think about it Galan , 4 Mad Celestials would actually try and invade just one universe , never mind the entire multiverse , and get away without having to engage an entire race of beings similar to themselves ? Why exactly did Hickman not portray it that way : because of the plot . It is quite surprising though that the Dreaming Celestial wasn't portrayed , seeing how Hickman loves to incorporate plot points from other writers' stories into his own , and the Dreaming Celestial along with the rest of the Host had made an appearance just a couple of issues prior , in Uncanny X-Men . You're adding a lot of opinion to this. Not going to fall into that circle.

F4/FF takes place in current Marvel, so the Dreaming Celestial should have already 'ascended' with the Fulcrum. That's likely why Hickman didn't use him.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Btw , a man-made weapon was able to split them back into 3 , and could have gone on to (possibly) destroy them as well , had it not threatened to ravage Earth as well . So , I doubt that 4 Mad Celestials on their own could actually conquer the multiverse . That man made weapon was the most power device ever created by man--a device capable of destroying alternate Beyonders--a device built by multiple Reeds (all of which possess an intelligence =/> 616 Reed.) Hardly a low showing for the Celestials to be split up by it. Hell, MC2 Reed once built a device in the Baxter Building that was capable of owning LT and ALL of the abstracts with their own energies. Don't hate on man made weaponry--especially if it's built by Reed. Furthermore, individual Mad Celestials tanked attacks from alternate UNs/IGs. Sol's Anvil was a true dues-ex-machina.

Anyway, Voltron Celestial >>> Galactus amped by 4 worlds = Franklin(more or less.) If powers on THAT level were NOTHING to Voltron, I really don't see any other character(s) stopping it. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
No, what you're talking about is a single statement in lieu of ALL context.

The entire story taken into context, painted a picture that the Celestials were concerned with eradicating the Reeds FIRST. Any other agendas they may have had certainly didn't take precedence over killing the Council of Reeds. As the Celestials said: "SUCCESS ACHIEVED. THE FINAL RENEGADE IS HERE..."

Which is exactly why I am talking about their ORIGINAL INTENTION . And this original intention was clearly depicted as them wanting to use the Bridge as a staging area for multiversal conquest .
Anyways , since neither of us is going to convince the other of our respective positions , I'll just agree to disagree(courtesy of Boris the Animal) .

Originally posted by Galan007

Despite that comment, the Celestials never attempted to conquer the multiverse--they ONLY went after the Reeds. That's it. I'm not saying multiversal conquest wasn't one of their goals--I'm just saying that on panel, it was secondary to destroying the Reeds.

Sidenote: I LOVE how Hickman used SHIELD to set up events in F4/FF. A genius, he is.

So you admit that multiversal conquest was a goal of theirs(even if not primary) ? As far as the rest of this portion of your post is concerned , I have addressed that above .

Originally posted by Galan007

You're adding a lot of opinion to this. Not going to fall into that circle.

F4/FF takes place in current Marvel, so the Dreaming Celestial should have already 'ascended' with the Fulcrum. That's likely why Hickman didn't use him.

So , that Uncanny X-Men arc didn't take place in current Marvel ? Does it take place some point before Tiamut's ascension ? If so , proof in the form of on-panel evidence or writers' statements would be appreciated .

Originally posted by Galan007

That man made weapon was the most power device ever created by man--a device capable of destroying alternate Beyonders--a device built by multiple Reeds (all of which possess an intelligence =/> 616 Reed.) Hardly a low showing for the Celestials to be split up by it. Hell, MC2 Reed once built a device in the Baxter Building that was capable of owning LT and ALL of the abstracts with their own energies. Don't hate on man made weaponry--especially if it's built be Reed.

Furthermore, individual Mad Celestials tanked attacks from alternate UNs/IGs. Sol's Anvil was a true dues-ex-machina.
Not really hating on man-made weapons , just pointing out that if the smartest humans throughout the multiverse are capable of making something that can take down a Voltron Celestial(possessing the combined power of 4 Celestials) , it shouldn't imply that such a Voltron Celestial could easily conquer the multiverse .
As far as alternate Reeds having an intelligence >= that of 616 Reed , I wouldn't be too sure of it , seeing how it was 616 Reed who literally pulled out those entropy guns from his closet(he went back to 616 to get them) seems to imply to me that they are at least peers in terms of intellect , and at most , Reed's intellect is superior to theirs .
As far as the UNs go , when were the UNs used when those Celestials first invaded the Council? The first time I saw a UN used by a Reed , he ended up nullifying himself . To my knowledge , no Mad Celestial ever tanked a UN . As far as the IGs go.....that issue , I believe , has already been discussed in the IG vs Celestials thread . Two out of three of those IGs were non-functional , and the very instance that the 3rd IG got activated , it easily merked 4 Celestials , and the only reason that its wielder couldn't get the job done , was because the Reed whose body was being used as a portal to access that IG's native universe , got destabilized and killed , rendering the IG inactive .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
So you admit that multiversal conquest was a goal of theirs(even if not primary) ? As far as the rest of this portion of your post is concerned , I have addressed that above . I have always felt it was one of their intentions... Just not their primary intention.

I feel confident in saying this, because if multiversal conquest would have been their primary goal, they would have tried to conquer it at some point--but they didn't. Instead, they went out of their way to kill all Reeds FIRST.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
So , that Uncanny X-Men arc didn't take place in current Marvel ? Does it take place some point before Tiamut's ascension ? If so , proof in the form of on-panel evidence or writers' statements would be appreciated . Don't have proof, but it certainly makes sense. After all, since Tiamut evolved/ascended during the Eternals story, the only way he would still be on earth is if said events took place before his ascension.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Not really hating on man-made weapons , just pointing out that if the smartest humans throughout the multiverse are capable of making something that can take down a Voltron Celestial(possessing the combined power of 4 Celestials) , it shouldn't imply that such a Voltron Celestial could easily conquer the multiverse . 'course it does. Those were the smartest beings the multiverse had to offer, after all.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
As far as alternate Reeds having an intelligence >= that of 616 Reed , I wouldn't be too sure of it , seeing how it was 616 Reed who literally pulled out those entropy guns from his closet(he went back to 616 to get them) seems to imply to me that they are at least peers in terms of intellect , and at most , Reed's intellect is superior to theirs . Reed himself said that the intelligence of his alternate versions was equal to, and in some instances greater than, his own:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12428483_r1.jpg

I doubt he'd make such a statement in front of his rogues if it weren't true.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
As far as the UNs go , when were the UNs used when those Celestials first invaded the Council? The first time I saw a UN used by a Reed , he ended up nullifying himself . To my knowledge , no Mad Celestial ever tanked a UN . Regardless of the Reeds being destroyed by the UN, the Celestial they targeted still tanked the initial nullification energy-burst... Which is quite impressive.

Here's a Celestial tanking a UN blast during the first battle:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12428506_r2.jpg

The Reeds who used the UN simply weren't focused enough to use it without destroying themselves in the process. Doesn't mean that initial blast was any less 'nullify-ie'.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
As far as the IGs go.....that issue , I believe , has already been discussed in the IG vs Celestials thread . Two out of three of those IGs were non-functional , and the very instance that the 3rd IG got activated , it easily merked 4 Celestials , and the only reason that its wielder couldn't get the job done , was because the Reed whose body was being used as a portal to access that IG's native universe , got destabilized and killed , rendering the IG inactive . Fact still remains that a n00b IG wielder is capable of owning abstract entities--like Eternity--with a casual gesture. Yet an alternate Reed who was well-accustomed with his IG, was unable to defeat the Celestials with full access to his universe. Pretty impressive for the Celestials, imo. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Don't have proof, but it certainly makes sense. After all, since Tiamut evolved/ascended during the Eternals story, the only way he would still be on earth is if said events took place before his ascension.
Or it could be a standard case of Marvel writers f*cking up with continuity again .

Originally posted by Galan007

'course it does. Those were the smartest beings the multiverse had to offer, after all.
Smartest humans in the multiverse == smartest beings in the multiverse ?

Originally posted by Galan007

Reed himself said that the intelligence of his alternate versions was equal to, and in some instances greater than, his own:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12428483_r1.jpg

I doubt he'd make such a statement in front of his rogues if it weren't true.

Meh , that statement doesn't really mean much when we have an on-panel feat of Reed outperforming his counterparts(the universal entropy gun incident) , in the intellect/intelligence/thinking department , while those other Reeds , to my knowledge , apparently don't have any such feat(except for 616-Reed's hyperbole) .

Originally posted by Galan007

Regardless of the Reeds being destroyed by the UN, the Celestial they targeted still tanked the initial nullification energy-burst... Which is quite impressive.

Here's a Celestial tanking a UN blast during the first battle:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12428506_r2.jpg

The Reeds who used the UN simply weren't focused enough to use it without destroying themselves in the process. Doesn't mean that initial blast was any less 'nullify-ie'.

Was that Celestial depicted alive in subsequent panels ? Also , considering how it took 5 UNs on the Council's part to kill an alternate Galactus , I doubt that those are equal to their 616 counterparts .

Originally posted by Galan007

Fact still remains that a n00b IG wielder is capable of owning abstract entities--like Eternity--with a casual gesture. Yet an alternate Reed who was well-accustomed with his IG, was unable to defeat the Celestials with full access to his universe. Pretty impressive for the Celestials, imo. /shrug
Fact also remains that for the momentary time period that , that Reed managed to activate his IG , he owned 4 Celestials , and he didn't go on to own the rest , because the Reed who was acting as the portal to that IG's native universe . Also , in a What If , Doom's gems got cracked and drained of power , in order to beat the entire Celestial race , so I guess those What If Celestials were == the Mad Celestials ?

Also , as far the "n00b IG wielder is capable of owning abstract entities" claim in regards to the Council's IGs is concerned , what makes you think that 616 IG==its alternate counterpart ?
Because , IIRC , then in F4#605.1 , the Nazi Reed ended up killing everything in his universe with the IG's power , however , for some strange reason he couldn't restore all that he destroyed . And that same "n00b IG wielder" also undid all the damage that the IG had wrecked prior . So this leads me to confidently proclaim that 616 IG!= its alternate counterparts , and that in all likelihood , 616 IG > its alternate counterparts .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Smartest humans in the multiverse == smartest beings in the multiverse ? Reeds have always been portrayed as such, yes. You know of anyone else who has built tech capable of mucking with LT in any way/shape/form?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Meh , that statement doesn't really mean much when we have an on-panel feat of Reed outperforming his counterparts(the universal entropy gun incident) , in the intellect/intelligence/thinking department , while those other Reeds , to my knowledge , apparently don't have any such feat(except for 616-Reed's hyperbole) . Ah, so you believe Reed was speaking in hyperbole to his rogues? You've been solid up until now, don't start blatantly ignoring on panel happenings.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Was that Celestial depicted alive in subsequent panels ? Also , considering how it took 5 UNs on the Council's part to kill an alternate Galactus , I doubt that those are equal to their 616 counterparts . Yes, it was.

We never saw the Reeds use those UNs against that Galactus. We only saw them BRANDISH the UNs. Remember the original Galactus saga? Reed merely had to SHOW Galactus the UN, and he tucked his tail and fled earth. Intimidation is key. We never saw those UNs fired, therefore it is illogical to assume they ever were.

To the contrary, we physically SAW the Celestials tank initial blasts from the UNs. Uber feats, imo.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Fact also remains that for the momentary time period that , that Reed managed to activate his IG , he owned 4 Celestials , and he didn't go on to own the rest , because the Reed who was acting as the portal to that IG's native universe . Also , in a What If , Doom's gems got cracked and drained of power , in order to beat the entire Celestial race , so I guess those What If Celestials were == the Mad Celestials ? You're starting to fall apart. Relax.

Only point is that even with momentary full access to his universe, Reed was unable to take out the Ceelstials with his IG. It's a good feat for the Celestials any way you cut it.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Also , as far the "n00b IG wielder is capable of owning abstract entities" claim in regards to the Council's IGs is concerned , what makes you think that 616 IG==its alternate counterpart ?
Because , IIRC , then in F4#605.1 , the Nazi Reed ended up killing everything in his universe with the IG's power , however , for some strange reason he couldn't restore all that he destroyed . And that same "n00b IG wielder" also undid all the damage that the IG had wrecked prior . So this leads me to confidently proclaim that 616 IG!= its alternate counterparts , and that in all likelihood , 616 IG > its alternate counterparts . You aren't remembering correctly. That Reed never tried, and failed, to undo what he had done. He never even said that he couldn't undo it--all he said is that the nexus point which housed the Council was the best place in existence from which to build himself a new future, as it exists outside of any/all universal 'confines'. More importantly, he also said that his IG contained INFINITE power:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12429081_r1.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12429083_r2.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12429084_r3.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12429086_r4.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12429089_r5.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12429092_r6.jpg
"What happens when you give a God an infinite canvas and all the time in the universe? Eventually, he has an idea."

So your contention is that the 616 IG's infinite power is more infinite than the alternate IG's infinite power? Yeah, not even going to respond to that seriously.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller



Smartest humans in the multiverse == smartest beings in the multiverse ?




I'm pretty sure that MC2 Reed has the greatest invention feat in all of marvelverses so wouldn't surprise if a group was a Reeds was the smartest collective in the multiverse.

Originally posted by Galan007
So your contention is that the 616 IG's infinite power is more infinite than the alternate IG's infinite power? Yeah, not even going to respond to that seriously.
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/6905/infinityho.th.jpg
You were saying?

This is based on a "real life" theory by the way.
http://io9.com/5873581/the-odd-genius-who-showed-that-one-infinity-was-greater-than-another

Now add to the fact we're comparing ALTERNATE reality IGs and Celestials and the water gets even more muddy.

Originally posted by Galan007
Reeds have always been portrayed as such, yes. You know of anyone else who has built tech capable of mucking with LT in any way/shape/form?
By mucking up the LT , you mean temporarily bfring it ? In that case no .
What I do have , is the Amulet of the Ancient One(which IIRC , originally belonged to Agamotto) , whose power the LT had to clandestinely draw upon , in order to battle Protege .

Originally posted by Galan007

Ah, so you believe Reed was speaking in hyperbole to his rogues? You've been solid up until now, don't start blatantly ignoring on panel happenings.

What on-panel showings ? All we have is a claim from Reed , and in that too , it is clearly mentioned that their intelligence is greater only in "some instances" , and the exact context behind said "instances" is never revealed .
In the succeeding part of your post , you tell me that we never "saw" event X happen . Seeing how 616-Reed has a feat of intelligence under his belt , which puts him above the rest of the Council , as compared to mere hyperbole for the other Reeds from 616-Reed himself , I'd say that since we never "saw" the other Reeds , individually(I'd say that collectively/in groups they could perhaps overtake 616-Reed) , outperform 616-Reed , therefore its safe to say that 616 Reed >= his alternate reality counterparts from the Council .

Originally posted by Galan007

You're starting to fall apart. Relax.

Only point is that even with momentary full access to his universe, Reed was unable to take out the Ceelstials with his IG. It's a good feat for the Celestials any way you cut it.

How exactly ?

That Reed only had his IG functional for a momentary period of time , and in that time-period , he merked 4 Celestials with ease . In fact , IIRC , when he was with the FF and Doom , he was adamant on going back to his home universe so that he could activate his IG . IMO, that clearly implies that , once his IG was functional again , he would have put a stop to the Celestials , once and for all .

Originally posted by Galan007

You aren't remembering correctly. That Reed never tried, and failed, to undo what he had done. He never even said that he couldn't undo it--all he said is that the nexus point which housed the Council was the best place in existence from which to build himself a new future, as it exists outside of any/all universal 'confines'. More importantly, he also said that his IG contained INFINITE power:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12429081_r1.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12429083_r2.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12429084_r3.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12429086_r4.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12429089_r5.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12429092_r6.jpg
"What happens when you give a God an infinite canvas and all the time in the universe? Eventually, he has an idea."

So your contention is that the 616 IG's infinite power is more infinite than the alternate IG's infinite power? Yeah, not even going to respond to that seriously.

Excpet that a "noob IG wielder"(according to you) , was able to restore everything with just a snap of their finger .
You are basically implying that it never "occurred" to him to restore his reality , when the narration makes it clear he had "all the time in the universe" . Are you seriously trying to insinuate that a guy with Reed's type of intellect(combined with some his own universe's Doom's intellect) , couldn't figure out in all that time , that he simply could simply reverse all the damage he caused ? Because that doesn't make any sense .
What does make sense is the clear implication from those panels , that the IG , for some reason , couldn't undo the destruction it caused , therefore the Reed , using the Bridge , decided to create a new future by "solving everything" .
As far as 616 and alternate IGs are concerned , my opinion has always been that 616 IG > alternate IG . I have seen your debates with both MrMaster and zopzop regarding this issue , so I doubt that you would want to argue that with me . Your opinions are respected and welcome , nonetheless .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
By mucking up the LT , you mean temporarily bfring it ? In that case no .
What I do have , is the Amulet of the Ancient One(which IIRC , originally belonged to Agamotto) , whose power the LT had to clandestinely draw upon , in order to battle Protege . That is in no way/shape/form comparable to the instance I mentioned.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
What on-panel showings ? All we have is a claim from Reed , and in that too , it is clearly mentioned that their intelligence is greater only in "some instances" , and the exact context behind said "instances" is never revealed .
In the succeeding part of your post , you tell me that we never "saw" event X happen . Seeing how 616-Reed has a feat of intelligence under his belt , which puts him above the rest of the Council , as compared to mere hyperbole for the other Reeds from 616-Reed himself , I'd say that since we never "saw" the other Reeds , individually(I'd say that collectively/in groups they could perhaps overtake 616-Reed) , outperform 616-Reed , therefore its safe to say that 616 Reed >= his alternate reality counterparts from the Council . So you wanted to see these Reeds each build tech that puts them above 616 Reed (despite 616 Reed outright saying they were his intellectual equals) before you'll take his word as fact? I find it nonsensical that you're picking and choosing which comments from Reed you believe, and which you don't.

Regardless, said Reeds were responsible for Sol's Anvil--the Celestial buster. Tech 616 Reed was amazed by. That good enough?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
How exactly ?

That Reed only had his IG functional for a momentary period of time , and in that time-period , he merked 4 Celestials with ease . In fact , IIRC , when he was with the FF and Doom , he was adamant on going back to his home universe so that he could activate his IG . IMO, that clearly implies that , once his IG was functional again , he would have put a stop to the Celestials , once and for all . He could have beaten the Celestials within his own universe. IGs contain infinite power (even alternate ones.) Infinite power>Celestials. I am certainly not saying that Celestials are superior to an IG wielder. What I am saying is that the Celestials' ability to withstand a single attack from an IG wielder is still a HUGE feat.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Excpet that a "noob IG wielder"(according to you) , was able to restore everything with just a snap of their finger .
You are basically implying that it never "occurred" to him to restore his reality , when the narration makes it clear he had "all the time in the universe" . Are you seriously trying to insinuate that a guy with Reed's type of intellect(combined with some his own universe's Doom's intellect) , couldn't figure out in all that time , that he simply could simply reverse all the damage he caused ? Because that doesn't make any sense .
What does make sense is the clear implication from those panels , that the IG , for some reason , couldn't undo the destruction it caused , therefore the Reed , using the Bridge , decided to create a new future by "solving everything" .
As far as 616 and alternate IGs are concerned , my opinion has always been that 616 IG > alternate IG . I have seen your debates with both MrMaster and zopzop regarding this issue , so I doubt that you would want to argue that with me . Your opinions are respected and welcome , nonetheless . As the scans clearly state: that Reed wanted to build himself a new future--he wanted to erase his previous mistakes. This can be interpreted a few ways...
a.) He literally wanted to create himself a new future with the IG.
or
b.) By choosing to aid the Council, that Reed felt like he had a fresh start. He was now able to journey throughout the multiverse, helping the Council fix problems they encountered. In a sense, that would allow him, in his mind, to erase his previous mistakes, AND start a new future for himself (many believe good actions outweigh bad actions.) <---That seems like the more logical interpretation now that I read the scene more. Either way, he never tried, and failed, to fix the damage he caused to his universe. That's all I'm saying.

That aside, I am done debating the IG. It will only serve to derail this thread even more. In current continuity, I believe Hickman painted a picture that all IGs are equal, but that's neither here nor there...

Originally posted by zopzop
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/6905/infinityho.th.jpg
You were saying?

This is based on a "real life" theory by the way.
http://io9.com/5873581/the-odd-genius-who-showed-that-one-infinity-was-greater-than-another

Now add to the fact we're comparing ALTERNATE reality IGs and Celestials and the water gets even more muddy. Yeah, I can copy/paste scans/links from other people too! Woohoo!

Anyway, what you can't prove, I'm afraid, is that the 'levels of infinity' concept applies to the IGs. Sure you can speculate, but speculation(especially yours)=/=proof. We were told an alternate IG contains infinite power, with no mention that some IGs are more powerful than others--therefore, I'll take the word "infinite" at face value until I have a reason not to.

Originally posted by Galan007
That is in no way/shape/form comparable to the instance I mentioned.
Which is why I first mention "Bfring the LT ? No."

Originally posted by Galan007

So you wanted to see these Reeds each build tech that puts them above 616 Reed (despite 616 Reed outright saying they were his intellectual equals) before you'll take his word as fact? I find it nonsensical that you're picking and choosing which comments from Reed you believe, and which you don't.
Sorry , but that's just the way it is . When actual , canonical feats(mainstram) are involved , they trump all hyperbole .

Originally posted by Galan007

Regardless, said Reeds were responsible for Sol's Anvil--the Celestial buster. Tech 616 Reed was amazed by. That good enough?

Which is exactly why I asked for individual feats , not a collective effort .

Originally posted by Galan007

He could have beaten the Celestials within his own universe. IGs contain infinite power (even alternate ones.) Infinite power>Celestials. I am certainly not saying that Celestials are superior to an IG wielder. What I am saying is that the Celestials' ability to withstand a single attack from an IG wielder is still a HUGE feat.
Already addressed . I am not going to go arguing in circles , as pertains to this issue .

Originally posted by Galan007

As the scans clearly state: that Reed wanted to build himself a new future--he wanted to erase his previous mistakes. This can be interpreted a few ways...
a.) He literally wanted to create himself a new future with the IG.
or
b.) By choosing to aid the Council, that Reed felt like he had a fresh start. He was now able to journey throughout the multiverse, helping the Council fix problems they encountered. In a sense, that would allow him, in his mind, to erase his previous mistakes, AND start a new future for himself (many believe good actions outweigh bad actions.) <---That seems like the more logical interpretation now that I read the scene more. Either way, he never tried, and failed, to fix the damage he caused to his universe. That's all I'm saying.
Those scans also blatantly state that he had all the time in the universe . Within that time , with the kind of intellect a Reed is supposed to have(and he had his reality's Doom's smart skills as well) he could have figured out that he could simply undo the damage done by his IG . He didn't , so that implies that an alternate IG is NOT on the same level as the 616 version , and is in all likelihood , lower .

Originally posted by Galan007

That aside, I am done debating the IG. It will only serve to derail this thread even more. In current continuity, I believe Hickman painted a picture that all IGs are equal, but that's neither here nor there...

OK .

great convo goin on

for me adult frankie wins easily

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Sorry , but that's just the way it is . When actual , canonical feats(mainstram) are involved , they trump all hyperbole . So anything Reed says that isn't backed with feats is now hyperbole? Horrid logic. That will come back to bite you.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Which is exactly why I asked for individual feats , not a collective effort . The Council was only featured in a few issues, and in those issues they built a weapon more powerful than any other (a weapon that 616 Reed was amazed by), and they also taught him many, many things on a cosmic scale... Yet that still isn't enough? Jesus.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Those scans also blatantly state that he had all the time in the universe . Within that time , with the kind of intellect a Reed is supposed to have(and he had his reality's Doom's smart skills as well) he could have figured out that he could simply undo the damage done by his IG . He didn't , so that implies that an alternate IG is NOT on the same level as the 616 version , and is in all likelihood , lower . You are taking that statement HUGELY out of context.

"What happens when you give a God an infinite canvas and all the time in the universe? Eventually, he has an idea." *Enter the Council of Reeds* In fact, that statement/scene almost makes it seem like that Reed was a co-founder of the entire Council. That must have been the "idea" he came up with. Hmm...


Yes. That Reed (the bearded one) WAS a founder of the Council, so my interpretation of the scene in question must be correct:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12430287_r1.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12430288_r2.jpg


Either way, your interpretation of the aforementioned scene is a poor one. Like I said before: that Reed never tried, and failed, to fix the damage he caused to his universe. In fact, using YOUR logic, it was merely an unsupported hyperbolic statement (told you it would come back to bite you.)

Originally posted by Galan007
So anything Reed says that isn't backed with feats is now hyperbole? Horrid logic. That will come back to bite you.

Anything he states that is contradicted by CANON , MAINSTREAM feats , is at the very least considered hyperbole , and at the most is considered a lie .
I don't see what's wrong with this sort of logic .

Originally posted by Galan007

The Council was only featured in a few issues, and in those issues they built a weapon more powerful than any other--a weapon that 616 Reed was amazed by--yet that still isn't enough? Jesus.

So , still no individual feat of intelligence/intellect/thinking ability ?

Originally posted by Galan007

You are taking that statement HUGELY out of context--I expected better from you.

"What happens when you give a God an infinite canvas and all the time in the universe? Eventually, he has an idea." *Enter the Council of Reeds* In fact, that statement/scene almost makes it seem like that Reed was a co-founder of the entire Council. That must have been they "idea" he came up with. Hmm...


Yes. That Reed (the bearded one) WAS a founder of the Council, so my interpretation of the scene in question must be correct:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12430287_r1.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12430288_r2.jpg


Either way, your interpretation of the aforementioned scene is a poor one. Like I said before: that Reed never tried, and failed, to fix the damage he caused to his universe. In fact, using YOUR logic, it was merely an unsupported hyperbolic statement (told you it would come back to bite you.)
Why the hostility ? Did I insult you ? Did I make any inflammatory or offensive remarks ?
As far as the bearded Nazi Reed's issue goes , that statement isn't hyperbolic at all , when we are clearly shown that that Reed was(for some reason) incapable of repairing the damage he caused . The ultimate idea he has , after pondering for all the time in the universe , is to go and form the Council with two other counterparts of himself .
He had not only his own intellect , he also some of Doom's brains in himself . He could have easily figured out sooner , rather than later , that he could simply restore everything back with the "God Hand" . Yet he didn't . What does that tell us ? That an alternate IG , is at least one tier below the 616 version .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Anything he states that is contradicted by CANON , MAINSTREAM feats , is at the very least considered hyperbole , and the most is considered a lie .
I don't see what's wrong with this sort of logic . You realize Reed's statement ISN'T contradicted, right? He realized the Council members were his intellectual equals, and gave them their credit.

Hardly hyperbole. *shakes head*

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
So , still no individual feat of intelligence/intellect/thinking ability ? Just dealing with your incessant low-balling at this point.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
As far as the bearded Nazi Reed's issue goes , that statement isn't hyperbolic at all , when we are clearly shown that that Reed was(for some reason) incapable of repairing the damage he caused. The ultimate idea he has , after pondering for all the time in the universe , is to go and form the Council with three other counterparts of himself . *sighs* The underlined portion is purely your own, entirely unsupported, conjecture. Said Reed never once tried, and failed, to restore his universe--such a notion wasn't so much as alluded to. I CHALLENGE you to PROVE otherwise. The "idea" he came up with after having "all the time in the universe" was creating the Council of Reeds--an organization that would "solve everything" on a multiversal scale. This also equated to his chance at redemption for killing off his universe. That's it. Fixing his universe alone became entirely superfluous next to the scope in which the Council could operate.

Tbh, your conjecture/low-balling reflects a piss-poor description of the narration.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
He had not only his own intellect , he also some of Doom's brains in himself . He could have easily figured out sooner , rather than later , that he could simply restore everything back with the "God Hand" . Yet he didn't . What does that tell us ? That an alternate IG , is at least one tier below the 616 version . See above. This BS is getting old.

Originally posted by Galan007
You realize Reed's statement ISN'T contradicted, right? He realized the Council members were his intellectual equals, and gave them their credit.

Hardly hyperbole. *shakes head*

Except it is . 616 Reed's personal tech trumped most of the things that the Council was throwing at the Mad Celestials .

Originally posted by Galan007

*sighs* The underlined portion is purely your own, entirely unsupported, conjecture. Said Reed never once tried, and failed, to restore his universe--such a notion wasn't so much as alluded to. I CHALLENGE you to PROVE otherwise. The "idea" he had was creating the Council of Reeds--an organization that would "solve everything" on a multiversal scale. That's it. His own universe became superfluous next to the Council's scope.

Tbh, your conjecture/low-balling reflects a piss-poor description of the narration.
Its already been addressed in prior posts . As I said before , I am not going to go around arguing in circles . Lets just stop this unnecessary argument , OK ?

Originally posted by Galan007
See above. This BS is getting old.
I have proven the points I intended to prove . You can have the last word in our convo , as pertains this issue .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Except it is . 616 Reed's personal tech trumped most of the things that the Council was throwing at the Mad Celestials . Except Sol's Anvil--which tooled the Voltron Celestial.

Sol's Anvil>>Voltron>>>Galactus amped by 4 worlds = Franklin(more or less.)

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Its already been addressed in prior posts . As I said before , I am not going to go around arguing in circles . Lets just stop this unnecessary argument , OK ?

I have proven the points I intended to prove . You can have the last word in our convo . If you believe that you've proven your points by ignoring context, then that's fine.


More on point, adult Franklin wins.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, I can copy/paste scans/links from other people too! Woohoo!

Anyway, what you can't prove, I'm afraid, is that the 'levels of infinity' concept applies to the IGs. Sure you can speculate, but speculation(especially yours)=/=proof. We were told an alternate IG contains infinite power, with no mention that some IGs are more powerful than others--therefore, I'll take the word "infinite" at face value until I have a reason not to.
You were going on about one infinity being greater than another infinity and saying you didn't buy it. I gave you on panel proof from Marvel that such a thing is possible and canon (backed up by the 'real life' example Kubik's statement was based on).

616 IG != Alt Reality IGs. 616 characters != Alt reality characters. There is proof of 616 reality IG doing stuff that alt reality IGs weren't capable of.

Originally posted by zopzop
You were going on about one infinity being greater than another infinity and saying you didn't buy it. I gave you on panel proof from Marvel that such a thing is possible and canon (backed up by the 'real life' example Kubik's statement was based on). Again, because the story itself never once referenced 'levels of infinity', or referenced IGs possessing varying levels of power, I have no choice but to take the alternate Reed's statement at face value. When he said "infinite", he meant it in the literal sense.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, because the story itself never referenced 'levels of infinity', or referenced IGs possessing varying levels of power, I have no choice but to take the alternate Reed's statement at face value. When he said "infinite", he meant it in the literal sense.
But as we've seen, infinite doesn't mean anything. Because there are levels of infinity.

We've also seen the 616 IG do things alt reality IGs were supposedly incapable of doing (functioning out of it's native reality being the most important).

Originally posted by zopzop
But as we've seen, infinite doesn't mean anything. Because there are levels of infinity.

We've also seen the 616 IG do things alt reality IGs were supposedly incapable of doing (functioning out of it's native reality being the most important). In THAT years-old story there were levels of infinity. However, since nothing of the sort was mentioned in THIS story, it is faulty to try and apply that type of context. You really think Hickman intended readers to have read a decadeS old issue so that they could apply it to a statement Reed made, or do you think his use of the word "infinite" was intended in a literal sense? Again: If the levels of infinity concept, or varying levels of IG power, weren't mentioned, it is only logical to assume that the word "infinite" was used in the literal sense.

As for your other point: don't care about getting into it. That has nothing to do with what I said.

Originally posted by Galan007
You really think Hickman intended readers to have read a decadeS old issue so that they could apply it to a statement Reed made It's like you understand my problem with this forum better than anyone.

If only you didn't wear tight pants and band tees.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
It's like you understand my problem with this forum better than anyone.

If only you didn't wear tight pants and band tees. What about pan-tees? Is that a deal breaker?

Originally posted by Galan007

So anything Reed says that isn't backed with feats is now hyperbole?

Horrid logic.


I remember Reed hyperbolized once that the PF was the big bang.

He was dead wrong when he witnessed the real big bang on panel.

Just sayin, it can happen.

I'd count on writers making Reed say the right shit most of the time,
but sometimes a bone-head writer or plot,
can make even Reed say shit he shouldn't be saying.

Originally posted by zopzop

But as we've seen, infinite doesn't mean anything.

Because there are levels of infinity.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12431805_Infinities.jpg

"There are infinities beyond your narrow limited perception."


I have 5 different Marvel titles where this is explicitly stated.

*edit* ... I actually have more than 5 ...
I'm also talking titles through out the years too, not just mid 90's shit.

Here's another: (2002)

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12431848_Warlock_goes_outside_2.jpg

"An Infinity beyond Infinity"

Originally posted by Mr Master

He was dead wrong when he witnessed the real big bang on panel.
scans of this?

The real Big Bang, (on panel) occurring.

The real "Spark" that ignites creation (on panel) occurring.

The real embodiment of the Big Bang (on panel) occurring.


http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674167_1.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674168_2.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674169_3.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674170_4.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674171_5.jpg


It has absolutely nothing to do with the PF in any sense of the word.

Although it's been a fact that the PF was born from the Big Bang like everything else.

The latest update is that it was born seconds after Space-Time. (Eternity/infinity)
along with the rest of the Concepts.

Originally posted by Mr Master


The latest update is that it was born seconds after Space-Time. (Eternity/infinity)
along with the rest of the Concepts. so galactus is again the Oldest Cosmic player?(except TOAA and the LT)

Originally posted by Mr Master
The real Big Bang, (on panel) occurring.

The real "Spark" that ignites creation (on panel) occurring.

The real embodiment of the Big Bang (on panel) occurring.


http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674167_1.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674168_2.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674169_3.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674170_4.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674171_5.jpg


It has absolutely nothing to do with the PF in any sense of the word.

Although it's been a fact that the PF was born from the Big Bang like everything else.

The latest update is that it was born seconds after Space-Time. (Eternity/infinity)
along with the rest of the Concepts.

Did Reed say that the PF was that in the same comic?

Originally posted by Reacting2

so galactus is again the Oldest Cosmic player?(except TOAA and the LT)
He always was, that's never changed.

In the previous Reality, all the Concepts existed, only they were not absolute,
since all of them were part of the Infinity Being who was the entirety of everything.

TOAA can't be categorized as it is the representative avatars of the writers/artists.

The LT was created from the original Big Bang.

Originally posted by jalek moye

Did Reed say that the PF was that in the same comic?
Nah. He said it in another story/comic, prior to this event.

But that statement was wrong all over even without this depiction.

This display is associated cause it involves Reed.

I'm sure he now knows the facts.

Originally posted by Mr Master

The LT was created from the original Big Bang. so Galactus is older than the LT

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah. He said it in another story/comic, prior to this event.

But that statement was wrong all over even without this depiction.

this display is associated cause it involves Reed.

I'm sure he knows now the facts.

Then it's not the same though. What Reed said about the council was in the same story that they were from and fell in and where there showings come from. There's no reason to assume he was lying or wrong until it is proven otherwise, and so far it hasn't been since they made a weapon that did what he couldn't.

Originally posted by Reacting2

so Galactus is older than the LT
Not exactly.

Galactus was born relatively at the same time as the LT.

Remember, Galactus was Galan (a powerless humanoid) in the previous Reality.

It was the Infinity Being right before it finally imploded
that decided to save him and bond with him
turning him into Galactus the balance of the new reality.

Originally posted by Reacting2
so Galactus is older than the LT LT was born at the beginning of the universes, and Galan's universe existing means that LT was around at least when Galan's universe was originally formed.

That's assuming Galan's universe came around when the original big bang happened, and not a couple universal cycles after.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I remember Reed hyperbolized once that the PF was the big bang.

He was dead wrong when he witnessed the real big bang on panel.

Just sayin, it can happen.

I'd count on writers making Reed say the right shit most of the time,
but sometimes a bone-head writer or plot,
can make even Reed say shit he shouldn't be saying.

Hickman isn't really a bonehead writer . However 616-Reed's statement that an alternate Reed(member of the Council) has a greater magnitude of intellect than himself is clear hyperbole , because we have a feat in which 616-Reed outperforms his council brethren(the universal entropy gun incident) , however for the Council Reeds , no such feat(based on their individual intelligence alone) exists .
If on-panel feats contradict a statement made by a character , and that too within the same story arc , then said character's statement should definitely be considered hyperbole .

Originally posted by jalek moye
Then it's not the same though. What Reed said about the council was in the same story that they were from and fell in and where there showings come from. There's no reason to assume he was lying or wrong until it is proven otherwise, and so far it hasn't been since they made a weapon that did what he couldn't.

He already has made weapons that can slag those Mad Celestials , and IIRC , caused those Mad Gods to flee in the first place , during their first encounter with the Council .
The Sol's Anvil was a collective effort of the entire Council excluding perhaps 616-Reed(or at least that's what Hickman implied in his Forever storyline) , not the product of an individual councilman Reed's intelligence and efforts .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Hickman isn't really a bonehead writer .

However 616-Reed's
statement that an alternate Reed(member of the Council) has a
greater magnitude of intellect than himself is clear hyperbole ,
because we have a feat in which 616-Reed outperforms his council
brethren(the universal entropy gun incident) , however for the Council
Reeds , no such feat(based on their individual intelligence alone)
exists .

If on-panel feats contradict a statement made by a character , and
that too within the same story arc , then said character's statement
should definitely be considered hyperbole .
I also added or plot.

That aside, I agree with what you're saying.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I also added or plot.

That aside, I agree with what you're saying.

OK . Although it is difficult to accept that Hickman's plot can sometimes be a little boneheaded(apart from the fact that his narrative sometimes speaks in poetic riddles) . I believe F4#572 is testimony to this .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

He already has made weapons that can slag those Mad Celestials , and IIRC ,
caused those Mad Gods to flee in the first place ,
during their first encounter with the Council .



It was because of 616 Reed that anyone survived that attack.

After that Alternate IG was implemented momentarily because the conduit got cut off:

(conduit died from the quick experience)

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12437338_1.jpg

One shot 4 Celestials.

(unfortunately after this it was immediately separated from its source universe)


-------------------------------------------------


Then, 616 Reed came back and saves the day:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12437340_2.jpg
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12437341_3.jpg

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12437344_4.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master
I remember Reed hyperbolized once that the PF was the big bang.

He was dead wrong when he witnessed the real big bang on panel.

Just sayin, it can happen.

I'd count on writers making Reed say the right shit most of the time,
but sometimes a bone-head writer or plot,
can make even Reed say shit he shouldn't be saying. This is Hickman we're talking about. He doesn't make mistakes. uhuh

Honestly though, it wouldn't be in character for Reed to speak in hyperbole at all--let alone in front of all of his rogues--regarding the threat-level his alternates possess, if it weren't true. If you're claiming the aforementioned statement is hyperbole, then you must now begin claiming that ANYTHING Reed says is hyperbole until it's backed by other on panel happenings. Lets be realistic here--the omniscient writer (Hickman/TOAA) is who put those words in Reed's mouth. No reason they should be suspect. No reason at all.

Originally posted by Galan007

This is Hickman we're talking about. He doesn't make mistakes. uhuh
Ey, don't get me wrong, his writing is simply a beauty.

But he's human like us all.
Originally posted by Galan007

Honestly though, it wouldn't be in character for Reed to speak in
hyperbole at all--let alone in front of all of his rogues--regarding the
threat-level his alternates possess, if it weren't true. If you're claiming
the aforementioned statement is hyperbole, then you must now begin
claiming that ANYTHING Reed says is hyperbole until it's backed by
other on panel happenings. Lets be realistic here--the omniscient
writer (Hickman/TOAA) is who put those words in Reed's mouth. No
reason they should be suspect. No reason at all.
Oh, I never said it was hyperbole,
I brought up an example to highlight that it can happen.

I also added that writers usually have Reed say the right things,
until a "bonehead" writer or "Plot" forces PIS/CIS or whatever.

Although, I gotta disagree with this "omniscient" writer status.
You know details get overlooked and flipped many times by writers,
it's up to us to wash out the garbage by process of elimination.

TOAA's notion of omniscience stops at the last page of any comic.
Although it's "omniscience" from the perspective of a limited mind.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Ey, don;t get me wrong, his writing is simply a beauty.

But he's human like us all.

Oh, I never he said it was hyperbole, I brought up an example to highlight that it can happen.

I also added that writers usually have Reed say the right things,
until a "bonehead" writer or"Plot" forces PIS/CIS or whatever.

Although, I gotta disagree with this "omniscient" writer status.
You know details get overlooked and flipped many times by writers, Gotcha.

However, in the fictional realm of comics, writers ARE omniscient.

Originally posted by Mr Master
it's up to us to wash out the garbage by process of elimination. No, it's not.

Comic book writers>comic book fans. Whether fans agree with it or not, what writers say is law.

Originally posted by Galan007

However, in the fictional realm of comics, writers ARE omniscient.
Yea, and they create characters that blast Universes,
doesn't take away from it being nonsense.

You feel me? But I get what you're sayin.
Originally posted by Galan007

No, it's not.

Comic book writers>comic book fans.
Whether fans agree with it or not, what writers say is law.
I'm not saying we can change what was said,
but we can dismiss garbage as garbage.

Now action isn't easily dismissed.
There better be a heavy history countering the justification behind it.

Originally posted by Galan007


Comic book writers>comic book fans. Whether fans agree with it or not, what writers say is law. You've dismissed what writer have said on occasion.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, and they create characters that blast Universes,
doesn't take away from it being nonsense.

You feel me? But I get what you're sayin. I feel ya.

I agree that in the real world, comic book writers are primarily geeks that I could beat the shit out of. Hardly infallible. In the fictional world of comics, however, writers are the top dogs. What they say, goes.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm not saying we can change what was said,
but we can dismiss garbage as garbage.

Now action isn't easily dismissed.
There better be a heavy history countering the justification behind it. If something is blatantly garbage, then yes, readers can dismiss it as BS. Readers can't, however, dismiss something just because they don't agree with it.

For instance, if a writer stated in a comic that Galactus was only a global power, we could absolutely dismiss it as trash. However, if a writer published a comic in which Galactus was engaging in gay intercourse with his heralds, then it would be disgusting, but not as easily dismissible.

Originally posted by Doon
AF extracted (and utilized) the orb containing young Frank's powers only when he was ready to summon Galactus. AF was not enhanced by said orb. Galactus (who was also similarly exposed to the orb) was not enhanced (only brought back) by it.

I just looked at Hickman's Formspring , and he confirmed that Galactus was being "powered by Franklin" .
Whether that counts as being enhanced or not , I am not sure(although I think that it does) :
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/781/sconfessionv.jpg

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I just looked at Hickman's Formspring , and he confirmed that Galactus was being "powered by Franklin" .
Whether that counts as being enhanced or not , I am not sure(although I think that it does) :
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/781/sconfessionv.jpg
That fxxking hypserspace thing is gonna haunt the Celestials forever now isn't it? Fxxk Hickman, Tom Defalco, and the Fantastic Four (and the PIS/CIS that follows them around).

Originally posted by zopzop
That fxxking hypserspace thing is gonna haunt the Celestials forever now isn't it? Fxxk Hickman, Tom Defalco, and the Fantastic Four (and the PIS/CIS that follows them around).

Superman has at times been portrayed as immune to kryptonite .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I just looked at Hickman's Formspring , and he confirmed that Galactus was being "powered by Franklin" .
Whether that counts as being enhanced or not , I am not sure(although I think that it does) :
We've always known he was being powered by Franklin--Franklin's power is what resurrected him, after all. /shurg

Originally posted by Galan007
We've always known he was being powered by Franklin--Franklin's power is what resurrected him, after all. /shurg

The question is , does it count as "enhancing" G-Man as well , or not ?

^ Hard to say. That comment is pretty ambiguous.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I just looked at Hickman's Formspring , and he confirmed that Galactus was being "powered by Franklin" .
Whether that counts as being enhanced or not , I am not sure(although I think that it does) :
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/781/sconfessionv.jpg

Wow. That's a very interesting comment indeed. The originator of the question appeared to be somewhat taken aback by the fact that both Galactus and Sue were able to penetrate Celestial armor. And in responding that Galactus was "powered" by Franklin, Hickman seems to be implying that Galactus would not be able to accomplish said feat otherwise. That's how I read it. Not sure what to make of this. I was only being flippant with my previous remarks suggesting that Galactus was enhanced by Franklin's power. Based on Hickman's aforementioned remarks, though, I now think it's a serious possibility. Hmm..

Originally posted by Doon
Hickman seems to be implying that Galactus would not be able to accomplish said feat otherwise.

'course not. That was painfully obvious on panel. I mean, how was Galactus going to do anything in the dead/KO'd state he was in?

As Galan said, this comment didn't reveal anything.

Originally posted by Cogito
'course not. That was painfully obvious on panel. I mean, how was Galactus going to do anything in the dead/KO'd state he was in?

As Galan said, this comment didn't reveal anything.

He also said it's a bit ambiguous.

It is ambiguous because it can be interpreted a few ways (as we've already seen by the responses in this thread.) Personally, I'm just looking at it literally. Galactus was "powered" by Franklin in the literal sense, as it was Frank's power that resurrected Galactus from a lifeless corpse, back to a Celestial-buster.

All Hickman's comment told me is something I already knew. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
It is ambiguous because it can be interpreted a few ways (as we've already seen by the responses in this thread.) Personally, I'm just looking at it literally. Galactus was "powered" by Franklin in the literal sense, as it was Frank's power that resurrected Galactus from a lifeless corpse, back to a Celestial-buster.

All Hickman's comment told me is something I already knew. /shrug

I don't know. If Hickman had said (to the question originator) something along the lines of, 'I'm not sure why you're taking issue with Galactus' ability to perform such feats; that's always been well within his power level', there would be no point of contention I think. My thoughts.

Oh I understand where you're coming from, and you may very well be correct. It's just hard to determine what's right/wrong, when the statement Hick made can be taken a couple ways. IMO.