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scenario one

one vs one

zeus vs cyttorak
king thor vs cyttorak
bor vs cyttorak

fights on crimson cosmos

scenario two

one vs one

zeus vs cyttorak
king Thor vs cyttorak
bor vs cyttorak

fights on New York

scenario three

zeus/king thor/bor vs cyttorak

fight on crimson cosmos

this is gonna get closed

cytorrak should stomp scenario 1 and 3, scenario 2...it would be nice to finally see Cytorrak free. i think he'd win scenario 2, but the opposition would have more of a chance

Originally posted by Jynocidus
this is gonna get closed why? three skyfather level guys against a demon on his home turf

cytorrak has very little feats. there have been times where Cytorrak couldn't stop his herald, where others he was snatching Galactus unexpectedly out of travel. until the comics portray him consistently, it's technically not fair to go off of hyperbole.

i can't wait until Cytorrak breaks into 616, i don't know what's gonna happen to put that set of events into progress but all hell is gonna break loose. watch

Originally posted by Jynocidus
cytorrak has very little feats. there have been times where Cytorrak couldn't stop his herald, where others he was snatching Galactus unexpectedly out of travel. until the comics portray him consistently, it's technically not fair to go off of hyperbole.

i can't wait until Cytorrak breaks into 616, i don't know what's gonna happen to put that set of events into progress but all hell is gonna break loose. watch

Have you heard of Lance_Bastro ?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Have you heard of Lance_Bastro ? no, who is he?

nah.

i browse other sites sometimes, but this is the only one i've posted on.

Originally posted by CaneloAlvarez
no, who is he?

A guy on comicvine .
Check out this post from him :
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/amatsu-mikaboshi-vs-cyttorak/584438/?page=3

Originally posted by Jynocidus
nah.

i browse other sites sometimes, but this is the only one i've posted on.

You would lose your love for Cyttorak , if you ever happened to read that guy's posts .

i've seen that before. he went in

Originally posted by Jynocidus
i've seen that before. he went in

In what ?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
In what ?

i didn't lose anything from reading them.

it just made me more upset that Marvel hasn't portrayed Cytorrak to a consistent potential yet. I bet he's stronger than a looooot of characters, but it would never fly in this day and age on KMC

Originally posted by Jynocidus
i didn't lose anything from reading them.

it just made me more upset that Marvel hasn't portrayed Cytorrak to a consistent potential yet. I bet he's stronger than a looooot of characters, but it would never fly in this day and age on KMC

That guy has claimed repeatedly that Cyttorak(and he says this not only for Cyttorak , but for other characters like Dr Strange, as well) is above the LT in power(even outside of the Crimson Cosmos) .
That's what I meant , when I said that you would lose your love for Cyttorak , if you read his posts .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
That guy has claimed repeatedly that Cyttorak(and he says this not only for Cyttorak , but for other characters like Dr Strange, as well) is above the LT in power(even outside of the Crimson Cosmos) .
That's what I meant , when I said that you would lose your love for Cyttorak , if you read his posts .


"went in" as in, he dug deep to show the significance of the crimson cosmos as compared to someone like Galactus.

Although, even though LT invoked the crimson bands against strange, LT didn't need to....I don't think that at all. Cytorrak still does what is necessary, and it's necessary for him to be locked away because his power fuels all of what is drawn. from my perspective, that's just how things work

but Cytorrak is powerful, it can't be denied, we just haven't seen it yet. Both good and evil, positive and negative energy, at least from what is of creation, is all his power. he's a threat to all reality, and to a certain extent principalities can have a stronger effect than gods and demons. and Cytorrak is likely the strongest principality.

to be honest, I see why you said you'd like to see Cytorrak vs the Power Gem entity in another post. Either way, they're both weaker than LT IMO

I'd be going out on a limb to say Cytorrak is to Marvel what the source is for DC. and as long as LT doesn't get involved, he probably would be the most powerful. that does not mean the most influential, however.

that's how I began to see it after a while. And it's plausible because Marvel has a proper cosmic hierarchy, so it would make sense for someone like Cytorrak to have been banished from reality. He's mad or upset because of this, so he left his gem in the world because he himself can't exist there. And that accounts for his heralds in each reality such as 616 and/or where ever a Juggernaut exists. there's only 1 cytorrak, but there's many...Odins right?

i can only wonder what Marvel has planned for Cytorrak. Maybe he's powerful, but outside of his realm or whatever he is susceptible to abstract forces such as the ones that celestials represent. til then, it's not really good to feed into it because unfortunately some folks around here are biased.

Originally posted by Jynocidus
I'd be going out on a limb to say Cytorrak is to Marvel what the source is for DC. and as long as LT doesn't get involved, he probably would be the most powerful. that does not mean the most influential, however.

that's how I began to see it after a while. And it's plausible because Marvel has a proper cosmic hierarchy, so it would make sense for someone like Cytorrak to have been banished from reality. He's mad or upset because of this, so he left his gem in the world because he himself can't exist there. And that accounts for his heralds in each reality such as 616 and/or where ever a Juggernaut exists. there's only 1 cytorrak, but there's many...Odins right?

i can only wonder what Marvel has planned for Cytorrak. Maybe he's powerful, but outside of his realm or whatever he is susceptible to abstract forces such as the ones that celestials represent. til then, it's not really good to feed into it because unfortunately some folks around here are biased.

He left his gem on Earth , because he and the rest of the Octessence had a deal regarding the Exemplars(the avatars of these deities) .
He's an elder god type demon lord , that's it . He has no place in the Marvel Cosmic Hierarchy , and most of the claims of his power are based on (unquantifiable)hyperbole .
As far as being the most powerful.........where did you get that from ?
Onslaught tore out his gem from Marko .
As far as their being only one Cyttorak.........that's never been clarified in comics .

Also , Cyttorak isn't a principality , he's a narcissist with magical powers . He was an Earthly deity , banished many millennia ago .

then why do neither good or evil matter to him? why doesn't he care what occurs outside of the crimson cosmos?

maybe at one point he may have originated on earth, but since we haven't seen much of him I leave room for all of that to be clarified. LT sort of spoke on god-like beings "of Earth, but not of the Earth" and that applies to Cytorrak

anyone who isn't below celestial / hell lord IMO has a place in the cosmic hierarchy. it may not be of the most significance, but they're there. it's why no-name celestials are still strong but could get beat by characters that the story is about. celestials have their part, but not all of them are like...Tiamat or another well known.

There has to be a reason why Cytorrak is banished. Going by the implications that he has been a threat to all reality, along with what Juggy is capable of, then looking at lance_bastro's post along with what that one guy said about Cytorrak being around Shuma level? I consider Shuma to be a direct product of the abstract Chaos because Shuma itself is not Father Chaos, the abstract. Chaos exists in many realms where there is confusion, and Shuma rules over many....so where does that leave Cytorrak?

i lean towards him being abstract in power level.

and also...another point. technically, all of these extra-dimensional entities are demons. gods can degenerate into demons if they consume each other. and technically "gods" (odin, thor, zeus, poseidon, etc) aren't "gods" they're just deviant. Even in Marvel we've seen Utau say "there is only one creator, and his power is love" so while Norse and Olympian "gods" are being called "gods," they are in fact not the creator or TOAA. if cytorrak is a demon lord, then it sort of fits. if one doesn't have the power gem, who would they call on for the greatest source of power?

sort of like how people would argue about how in DC that Saint of Killers could kill God when not on the throne, well Cytorrak could get defeated while outside of the crimson cosmos. and he obviously was, since he was banished.

Actually , an aspect of evil(destruction) does matter to him . He confirmed this in the recent AVX issue .

I don't think that hell-lords(like Mephisto) are in the same league as Celestials , because Franklin Richards , as a child , pulverized one in the latter's own realm , and he has consistently been portrayed as around the level of a Celestial .

Abstract level ? Based on what ?

All you need to override Cyttorak's enchantment is War Hulk with some basic Celestial tech from Apoc.

he stopped Galactus, Strange, and Surfer during travel. That's an abstract, and two highly-capable characters...

Cytorrak doesn't care about anything , only his name being spread. That's why a villain (Cain) and a hero (colossus) could both use his power. Destruction can occur if heroes are defending against villains, or the other way around. At least...imo, anyway.

Franklin Richards has abstract level powers, but he's still mortal. He's quite capable, I give him that...but I wouldn't put him against anyone insanely powerful without a proper story to back why he's doing the things that he's doing.

I'd put Mephisto in the same league as celestials. Mephisto was there when Protege stole LT's power. I think that says something, because not every celestial, abstract, or hell lord was present during that situation. And on top of that, just like Celestials, Mephisto isn't supposed to interfere with the ways of mankind....he does stuff like try to bargain with Spider-Man just to manipulate the world in any way he can. it's a little different, but they're similar enough

Besiding using avatars, who has Cyttorak fought?

Galactus is not a true Abstract . More like a force of nature . He represents Equity on the LT's face , but he isn't a concept in itself .

Mephisto and Malevolence were present only when Protege summoned them , and that was AFTER he stole LT's power .

Btw , the GOTG were present as well when Protege stole LT's power , so I guess by that logic they too should be around the same level as the Celestials , right ?

As far as as current Franklin goes , he's immortal . And has high-end cosmic powers to boot .

As far interfering goes , you think that Celestials aren't supposed to interfere in humanity's(or any other sentient race they created) affairs (when this is one of the main reasons why the entire Watcher race went to war with them) ?

I disagree when you say Galactus is not a true abstract. Balance is an abstract concept, that separates good from evil. Chaos from Order. If you only know one of the two, you are IMO equated to a celestial or hell lord. (meaning, you lean towards one side more than the other) Anything below (elder god, sky father, cosmics) is affected by these forces. An example of imbalanced characterizations would be someone who only knows evil...like Doomsday. What happened when he became more aware? He calmed down.

GOTG were present, yes, but that is not how I meant for that statement to apply. You had beings like Scathan, Mephisto, Galactus...true abstracts, and the "higher" sides of the representation of positive (celestial) and negative (hellish) beings. Scathan must be on the highest side of positive energy, if his approval capabilities can override such an anomaly as Protege. See, on the negative side...nothing could be done. On the positive side where Scathan stands...creation is good! So Scathan can approve of things that lead to the story continuing on.

Franklin is not a true abstract. He is killable. His destiny may be to become the next Galactus, but he isn't there yet. He has high end cosmic powers, but he's nowhere near unbeatable. Put him against a group of celestials...

And yeah, you're right. Maybe I said it wrong. Celestials have the authority to interfere with what they created, and they tell "gods" like Odin and them not to. The creations don't want to be tampered with anyway, that is truth. I'm trying to say that Celestials are not supposed to let the majority of mankind know their presence...that's why they erase memories and don't allow communication for the most part with lesser beings. That's just like Angels when you really think about it, and Celestial can mean angelic. And above all else, Celestial Hosts have taken down sky fathers and entire pantheons. They are more capable than typical "gods"

Mephisto and Malevolence being there, to me, is the writers showing that there needed to be parties from both sides of potential influence. Who else represents evil like Mephisto in Marvel? Mephisto posed as Satan supposedly, right?

Current Franklin is immortal(or at least his adult self is) . You need to read the recent FF issues in which this fact has been alluded. Its in F4#605 and FF#16 . He's gonna witness the heat death of the universe along with Galactus .
As far his being killable goes , so is Galactus .
And as far as him being beatable goes ..........well so is Galactus again . Along with Eternity . And even the LT(although there are strict plot based stipulations for such a thing to happen) .
IMO , only an avatar of Death(like Thanos) can be truly regarded as immortal(or as close to true immortality as one can get) .

I still don't thing that Galactus is a truly conceptual being . Its true that on the LT's face , Galactus represents Equity , but what concept could you refer Galactus as ?

Mephisto is actually one of the many demonic beings that were created by the original Infinity Being to alleviate its solitude . The absence of good is what caused him and all those creations of the IB to degenerate into evil creatures . With him it is more a case of devolving into an evil being , rather than having been an absolute concept of evil that existed throughout .

Also Doomsday(in his classic portrayal) is more or less an animal , a mindless beast , thus he would not really have any concept of good or evil . So I don't think you should use him as an example here .

Originally posted by lilshogun
Besiding using avatars, who has Cyttorak fought?

i've only seen him kinda fight Juggy, which I don't count (not because it's a low showing that people would use against my argument, but because it's an internal struggle)

he kind of fought with watoomb when several mystical entities were trying to recruit Strange

I think Cytorrak is abstract in power because....how is an external force going to have Galactus hemmed up, but yet Odin couldn't do the same?

In reference to Doomsday....if someone is to be considered mindless? Within their mind, they can only comprehend confusion. And in their confusion, they do treacherous things like rampage through cities. Going off of instincts to do harm alone means that the mind is operating chaotically. chaos, is the absence of all order. Doomsday didn't want any friends, he didn't want to plant any flowers. He wanted everything demolished. Beings like that are labeled as bad.

galactus represents balance. if there is no balance in existence, then that is when abraxas comes out...who represents imbalance. Galactus is abstract because when the inbetweener tried to summon an opposite to face him, he couldn't....because Intbetweener was literally the opposite to Galactus. Balance and Duality go hand in hand.


i'll be sure to check out the recent FFs. I know Franklin has crazy potential, but all in all he's not as significant as an abstract or deity so I'm confident that there are ways to put him down.

Franklin doesn't have any significance to the universe....YET .For all we know Hickman might have a few surprises in his pocket left for the coming FF issues . There are ways to put him down , I agree but there are such ways for guys like Galactus as well .
I am not saying that Franklin is an Abstract , just that based on his current portrayal , he's immortal .

As far as Doomsday goes , we don't call a man-eating tiger evil , do we ? Nor do we call a bull that goes berserk and ends up goring.trampling humans to death , as evil do we ? Doomsday is an animal , a mindless monster , and as such can't be held accountable for his actions . Therefore , he can't possibly be considered as evil .

As far as Abraxas goes , he is Eternity's antithesis . In all likelihood , like Mikaboshi , Abraxas too is an aspect of Oblivion(although that hasn't been revealed yet , it isn't a stretch to think so , if you consider the Eternity/Infinity-Death/Oblivion relationship) .

Originally posted by lilshogun
Besiding using avatars, who has Cyttorak fought? PF on the crimson cosmos

Originally posted by Jynocidus


Franklin Richards has abstract level powers, but he's still mortal. He's quite capable, I give him that...but I wouldn't put him against anyone insanely powerful without a proper story to back why he's doing the things that he's doing.



Franklin is way beyond mortal now. As a matter of fact, he is probably beyond gods and demons. Anyway, he will survive literally until the end of the universe, one of the only 2 who will.

Originally posted by Tar-Antado
Franklin is way beyond mortal now. As a matter of fact, he is probably beyond gods and demons. Anyway, he will survive literally until the end of the universe, one of the only 2 who will. Who's the second?

It's more than 2

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Who's the second?

It's more than 2

Franklin and Galactus will be the only 2 to witness the heat death of the universe.

Originally posted by CaneloAlvarez
PF on the crimson cosmos

1/5-th of the PF , you mean ?