The High Evolutionary Vs Dr Doom

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Colossus-Big C
No prep
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/71666/1492558-11_04_10_01_80_copy.jpg

DarkSaint85
*Toot*

Doom.

Colossus-Big C
How?

DarkSaint85
Using magic. HE has some magic experience, yes, but not on Doom's level.

Whereas Doom has at any one time his mystical abilities built into the suit.

Badabing
Vickie loses.

Mindset
Originally posted by Badabing
Vickie loses. Reported.

Badabing
Originally posted by Mindset
Reported. joaquin

MF DELPH
Hmm...

Assuming this isn't the aloof HE (and seeing as this is a forum fight, it wouldn't be), I'd say HE not only wins, but could also, arguably, be considered smarter than Doom overall, and in genetics in particular. HE turned himself into, essentially, a God, via his intellect. Doom, fan worship notwithstanding, has just stolen other beings godlike abilities via tech and mastered sorcery. Pretty much every field Doom has mastered HE has as well, with HE being far better in the field of genetics, and HE having more personal power. Doom's simply more diabolical and popular.

Inhuman
Does Doom have the sea horn?

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by Inhuman
Does Doom have the sea horn?


Bahahahahaha!
laughing

Mshinu
Blue walrus or not, Doomie loses.

guy222
h e

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Inhuman
Does Doom have the sea horn?

I've already tooted.

With it, Doom is the master of the world.

Confirmed with on panel statements.

CosmicComet
Once Doom gets done with him, he'll be the...

LOW Evolutionary.




hyukhyukhyuk

whacknasty
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Once Doom gets done with him, he'll be the...

LOW Evolutionary.




hyukhyukhyuk

laughing

Endless Mike
No prep I'm going with HE

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by MF DELPH
be considered smarter than Doom overall

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/PissedJim.gif

Mindset
Delph...you blew it.

http://www.soshichan.org/g/src/132808292459.png

Colossus-Big C
Reed richards himself once needed high evolutionarys help and in that arc he stated that that The High Evolutionary was much smarter than him in genetics.
Tony stark couldnt even begin to understand the level of technology The High Evolutionary imbedded in crymson dynamos new armor.

DarkSaint85
Reed and Tony have both asked Doom for help before, so its no real advantage here.

MF DELPH
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/PissedJim.gif

You left out the "arguably".

And yes, it could be argued. HE has actually accomplished higher end feats (turned himself into a God-like being/member of the cosmic order, created Counter Earth, etc). There's not any field of science that Doom is better than HE in. Doom's not a better engineer or inventor, Doom's definitely not a better geneticist. The only thing Doom has on HE is his knowledge of magic (which HE also has, just not to the same degree) which is countered by HE's knowledge as a geneticist and dealings with higher beings (Celestials, etc). Put popularity aside and HE is the better intellect, just not as active/diabolical with it as Doom. Doom just flaunts it more and has more appearances. HE is, overall, of a higher order of intelligence.

CosmicComet
Jokes aside, I agree with Delph on this.

Mindset
Jokes aside, Delph doesn't know who either character is.

Colossus-Big C
The High Evolutionary performing a lobotomy on a Celestial (Exitar)

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/27967/661985-newborn_6_super.jpg

Mindset
Magneto level feat.

Horrificus
HE may be more intelligent, but he does not have the same strategic mind, is not as battle-oriented, nor as versatile as Doom.

HE is a "Super Scientist". Doom is a Super Scientist, Sorcerer and a Warrior, among other things.

These other attributes have to be taken into account.

MF DELPH
Not so sure about that. HE is a great strategist, he just doesn't act as malevolently with it as Doom does as HE isn't a 'villain' and has his own agenda which is more based on creation and preservation of life. If High Evolutionary were to set his sites on taking Doom and Latveria down, Doom and Latveria are going down.

Doom tries to conquer the world.

High Evolutionary creates his own worlds.

The only thing Doom has on HE is a slight magic edge and more combat experience due to Doom being an overused evil antagonist. HE is actually better than Doom in every category that counts, and also has the trump card of having actually made himself into a god like being rather than having to resort to attempts at stealing the powers from people more powerful than himself only to fail.

Mindset
Doom conquering Marvel Earth > creating a world erm

If Doom wants to take HE down he's taking him down.

Doom has never failed to take the power of godlike beings before, from what I remember, the only reason he doesn't stay like that is because he's Doom and they need to keep using him in F4 comics. I'd say taking the power of Galactus or Beyonder is more impressive than HE making himself a "god" because he is actually stripping away the power of cosmic beings.

HE is better than Doom in genetics and that's about it.

JakeTheBank
HE isn't going to beat Doom in anything resembling a prep-war.

At one point, you could argue HE being overtly more powerful than Doom straight up. Nowadays, especially since Doom's magic has been significantly upgraded and portrayed as being elite level among the magic users of Earth (to say nothing of his depth of knowledge in the arcane), not so much.

Mindset
Delph is somebody that I used to know.

Lord Feron
HE in a prepless battle.

pym-ftw
He should be above doom without writer love

MF DELPH
Originally posted by Mindset
Doom conquering Marvel Earth > creating a world erm

If Doom wants to take HE down he's taking him down.

Doom has never failed to take the power of godlike beings before, from what I remember, the only reason he doesn't stay like that is because he's Doom and they need to keep using him in F4 comics. I'd say taking the power of Galactus or Beyonder is more impressive than HE making himself a "god" because he is actually stripping away the power of cosmic beings.

HE is better than Doom in genetics and that's about it.

Nah, HE's better than Doom across the board.

HE doesn't have to steal the powers of Godlike beings, he simply made himself a godlike being via his own intellect, not just transferring the powers of others to himself for short periods of time. Short term energy tranference isn't awe inspiring homie.

HE is smarter than Doom. HE doesn't have to resort to the cheap things Doom does in order to be successful, and is more successful anyway.

HE is the smarter, and more powerful, character. Period.

And to Jake, regarding Doom's magic, not only does HE also know magic to an extent to which Doom's knowledge is not a trump card, but HE also has created magic negating tech/weapons and provided it to his New Men.

Doom has NOTHING on High Evolutionary other than his reputation as top villain and people thinking he just has to show up to win.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by Mindset
Doom conquering Marvel Earth > creating a world erm

If Doom wants to take HE down he's taking him down.

Doom has never failed to take the power of godlike beings before, from what I remember, the only reason he doesn't stay like that is because he's Doom and they need to keep using him in F4 comics. I'd say taking the power of Galactus or Beyonder is more impressive than HE making himself a "god" because he is actually stripping away the power of cosmic beings.

HE is better than Doom in genetics and that's about it. The High Evolutionary devolved galactus into a brain once with his tech. He could of killed him.

He also invented a device that would turn mutants into cosmic cube level beings .
Having the tech to make cosmic cube level power>> stealing cosmic cube power.


There was a what if that came out after the issue to show what would have happened if he wasnt stopped and all of the mutants were turned into cosmic cube level beings. ( its not cannon but it shows what would have happened)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/earthevo.htm



They obliterated all the celestials and even killed eternity himself.

Colossus-Big C
But you may be right about HE not being battle oriented.

Mindset
Originally posted by MF DELPH
Nah, HE's better than Doom across the board.

HE doesn't have to steal the powers of Godlike beings, he simply made himself a godlike being via his own intellect, not just transferring the powers of others to himself for short periods of time. Short term energy tranference isn't awe inspiring homie.

HE is smarter than Doom. HE doesn't have to resort to the cheap things Doom does in order to be successful, and is more successful anyway.

HE is the smarter, and more powerful, character. Period.

And to Jake, regarding Doom's magic, not only does HE also know magic to an extent to which Doom's knowledge is not a trump card, but HE also has created magic negating tech/weapons and provided it to his New Men.

Doom has NOTHING on High Evolutionary other than his reputation as top villain and people thinking he just has to show up to win. Nah, he's not.

He couldn't steal the powers of the beings Doom did, Doom with the powers he had > HE. It was only a short period of time because that's how plot works, there's no reason why Doom couldn't have kept Galactus's power, the reason why he couldn't keep Beyonder's power was clear cut pis. Yea, and with Doom's intellect he was able to take the powers of people way beyond HE...

No, he really isn't. How is owning a cosmic and taking his power cheap? That doesn't even make sense. Doom has had more success than anything HE has ever done. EVER.

Doom's accomplishments speak for themselves, and they are all more impressive than HE's.

JakeTheBank
What knowledge of magic does HE have to make it so that Doom's knowledge of magic isn't a very clear and sizeable advantage? The guy has been stated, more than once, to have a wider depth of knowledge concerning magic than Dr. Strange, and his magic has gone from being a "low level mage" to Sorcerer Supreme potential.

And it's not like Doom doesn't meld magic with tech on a regular basis and doesn't have tech to nullify mysticism himself, either.

Doom's feats are better than HE's. That's not hype, or a forum meme, or trying to be funny. That's fact.

Nihilist
HE stomps Doom without Vitcor having prep.

MF DELPH
No, it's not a fact, it's an opinion. There's not an accomplishment in Doom's resume that shows he's smarter than High Evolutionary. He's more battle tested than High Evolutionary, granted, but smarter, with better tech and inventions, and better feats of intellect than High Evolutionary?

No.

Doom is NOT smarter than High Evolutionary, and Doom does not posess more personal power than High Evolutionary. Also, to say that Doom would unequivocally beat High Evolutionary if both sides had equal prep is debatable in of itself, particularly given what High Evolutionary has already done and is capable of.

So yes, it's reputation and "Doom is Doom, so Doom wins", not fact.

And while High Evolutionary didn't finish second in the Sorcerer Supreme competition and hasn't sold the soul of his loved ones for borrowed magical power, that's not a feat of Doom's intelligence, that just shows the depths to which Doom will go to in order to gain power. Doom's magic knowledge and affinity isn't just a result of his intellect, it's also passed down through his heritage (from his Mother). High Evolutionary's arcane knowledge is good enough to amplify villains in his employ, negate magic attacks, and arm his New Men to battle demons and Chthon. I'm not saying High Evolutionary is a powerful sorcerer, I'm saying he knows enough about magic to provide adequate defenses and countermeausures against it so that an opponent wielding it doesn't have an advantage.

Doom is not a better inventor or engineer. There is not a field of science Doom is more proficient in than High Evolutionary. You can't say the opposite.

High Evolutionary is smarter than Dr. Doom.

Mindset
You're wrong, just get over it.

MF DELPH
I'm not wrong.

JakeTheBank
HE knowing what magic is about and being able to deal with it doesn't mean that Doom's tried and true knowledge of magic isn't an notable advantage. The guy was recently stated to possess magic more powerful than Dr. Strange and Wanda (pre HoM) and in a flashback, embarrassed Strange before his depowerment. The guy even held his own briefly against Morgan Le Fay, who ambushed him. Unless HE has some really absurd magic showings or tech on hand to even the field in that respect, I am not seeing how Doom's mystical might isn't a significant advantage here.

HE might have been able to contend with Doom's magic around the early 2000's, but he's gotten significantly better since then.

Mindset
Delph, stop resisting.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
HE knowing what magic is about and being able to deal with it doesn't mean that Doom's tried and true knowledge of magic isn't an notable advantage. The guy was recently stated to possess magic more powerful than Dr. Strange and Wanda (pre HoM) and in a flashback, embarrassed Strange before his depowerment. The guy even held his own briefly against Morgan Le Fay, who ambushed him. Unless HE has some really absurd magic showings or tech on hand to even the field in that respect, I am not seeing how Doom's mystical might isn't a significant advantage here.

HE might have been able to contend with Doom's magic around the early 2000's, but he's gotten significantly better since then. HE upgraded ulik, and diablo used HE technology to power the destroyer armor and siphon power from all the skyfathers of earth including odin.

he created a pocket dimension within asgard.

its in this arc
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/2104/41947459.jpg

he proved to have more magic than thor.

ODG
Originally posted by MF DELPH
I'm not wrong. High Evolutionary's genius isn't fully self-earned though is it?

MF DELPH
High Evolutionary's evolution tech is his own creation through experimentation. He evolved himself to a higher state of being, and with that came a higher capacity for intelligence (and a degree of cosmic awareness). Even before he evolved himself he was a high caliber geneticist and engineer. His evolved state is a direct result of his applying his genius to himself.

Now, he was Mr. Sinister's protege, but he's surpassed Sinister by a significant degree at this point, and Sinister's not a slouch in intelligence himself (actually an underated genius in his own right when you consider his knowledge in engineering and biotech though he's mainly known for genetics).

MF DELPH
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
HE upgraded ulik, and diablo used HE technology to power the destroyer armor and siphon power from all the skyfathers of earth including odin.

he created a pocket dimension within asgard.

its in this arc
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/2104/41947459.jpg

he proved to have more magic than thor.

In that same arc High Evolutionary created his own herald, stole Surfer's powers and rendered him a mortal, and co-opted Galactus's tech and repurposed it to replenish planets and create self sustaining life, and was in the process of creating new, 'better', Gods.

ODG
^ The events in the Silver Surfer mini can be mined for instances where Dr. Doom clearly surpassed High Evolutionary in similar circumstances. Originally posted by MF DELPH
High Evolutionary's evolution tech is his own creation through experimentation. He evolved himself to a higher state of being, and with that came a higher capacity for intelligence (and a degree of cosmic awareness). Even before he evolved himself he was a high caliber geneticist and engineer. His evolved state is a direct result of his applying his genius to himself.

Now, he was Mr. Sinister's protege, but he's surpassed Sinister by a significant degree at this point, and Sinister's not a slouch in intelligence himself (actually an underated genius in his own right when you consider his knowledge in engineering and biotech though he's mainly known for genetics). I wasn't referring to Nathaniel Essex, or even Professor Drew. I was talking about the Inhuman, Phaeder. Maelstrom's father.

MF DELPH
I wouldn't say that Phaeder teaching HE (and others) about the human genome negates HE from being intelligent himself (in the field of genetics). You can hand a normal person the schematics for nuclear bombs and teach them about physics and that won't necessarily result in that person becoming a nuclear physicist, and it's also not like Doom didn't have teachers himself and then expand upon what he learned. That's a pretty hollow point.

I stand by High Evolutionary being smarter than Doom.

ODG
^ This isn't Kang stumbling upon Doom's time machine, which is the type of situation you seem to be forcing here. Phaeder literally handed Herbert the secret to breaking genetic codes. An Inhuman scientist whose race literally revolves around genetics and evolution. And I don't recall that being limited to humans as his experimentation resulted in evolving a dog.

Nobody literally handed Doom the secret to mastering magic or tech. Herbert wasn't taught or tutored. He was handed the crib sheet.

MF DELPH
Your point being?

What you're saying is equivalent to saying that a physicist that used Einstein's Theory of Relativity as a framework, like Stephen Hawkins, for example, and then went on to further expand their knowledge of physics beyond that starting point, is a hack. Not to mention the fact that High Evolutionary is a master engineer, physicist, etc, on top of being the premiere geneticist on Marvel Earth.

Here's the incident:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/Sinistermeets12.jpg

Phaeder literally just tossed High Evolutionary a notepad with the map of the genetic code. No equipment, no resources, just a stack of notes. High Evolutionary went on to create technology which allowed him to evolve farm animals into highly intelligent bipedal humanoids, turned himself into a God like cosmic being, and created and terraformed an exact artificial replica of 616 Earth, as well as it's populace, to perfection, which is beyond the scope of those initial notes.

I stand by High Evolutionary being smarter than Dr. Doom.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by ODG
^

Nobody literally handed Doom the secret to mastering magic or tech. Herbert wasn't taught or tutored. He was handed the crib sheet. it was in the 1920s iirc . Its still a great feat to accomplish his level of tech in that era. Tvs were not even out yet.

ODG
Originally posted by MF DELPH
Your point being?

What you're saying is equivalent to saying that a physicist that used Einstein's Theory of Relativity as a framework, like Stephen Hawkins, for example, and then went on to further expand their knowledge of physics beyond that starting point, is a hack. Not to mention the fact that High Evolutionary is a master engineer, physicist, etc, on top of being the premiere geneticist on Marvel Earth.

Here's the incident:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/Sinistermeets12.jpg

Phaeder literally just tossed High Evolutionary a notepad with the map of the genetic code. No equipment, no resources, just a stack of notes. High Evolutionary went on to create technology which allowed him to evolve farm animals into highly intelligent bipedal humanoids, turned himself into a God like cosmic being, and created and terraformed an exact artificial replica of 616 Earth, as well as it's populace, to perfection, which is beyond the scope of those initial notes.

I stand by High Evolutionary being smarter than Dr. Doom. A stack of notes that was the Inhuman blueprint for cracking the genetic code. The very basis of High Evolutionary's science/focus. This is a crib sheet. Completely and utterly unearned through tutelage or discipline. Invoking the abstract theory of relativity doesn't work here. The theory of relativity is not a blueprint for cracking/breaking/manipulating physics.

After this jumpstart, he managed to turn a dog into a chimp-like humanoid through his own efforts. Clumsy, to say the least. Then he met multiple other individuals such as Mr. Sinister, Professor Drew, the Jackal, who were instrumental in many of his later advancements and achievements. These weren't passerbys but close, intimate collaborators.

In any event, how much you and I want to quibble over how important they were will lead to no resolution if we cannot even agree on Phaeder's involvement here. Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
HE upgraded ulik, and diablo used HE technology to power the destroyer armor and siphon power from all the skyfathers of earth including odin.

he created a pocket dimension within asgard.

its in this arc
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/2104/41947459.jpg

he proved to have more magic than thor. I wouldn't refer to the God Complex storyline in Iron Man/Thor to make your argument. High Evolutionary worked closely with Diablo to do what he did there and his complete reliance on Diablo's expertise wasn't just illustrated, but self-admitted. Them sending their minions to steal artifacts from Baron Mordo, Moses Magnum and Asgard is even lower than the types of "cheap" accomplishments being derided from the anti-Doom camp.

Doom can only steal godly powers like the Power Cosmic? At least Doom invented his Power Cosmic Siphon Harness himself, whereas High Evolutionary had to steal Starktech to steal Surfer's powers. And going on in that storyline, High Evolutionary cribbed Galactus' tech to make a Herald and then surrendered to Galactus immediately upon being confronted. Doom cribbed Galactus' tech and stripped Galactus of all his power and went on to eventually combat the Beyonder. Hell, High Evolutionary had trouble with just even Surfer's cosmic awareness, whereas Doom completely acclimated to Galactus'.

Colossus-Big C
Doom is alot more clever. But this doesnt make him smarter though.
And I agree doom has the magic edge.
Im just saying. What happens if doom gets hit with the same blast that mindraped thor? Or even better a devolving blast?

DarkSaint85
Then his shields would tank it.

Or its a Doombot.

janus77
Doom gives HE the flu, ftw.

ODG
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Doom is alot more clever. But this doesnt make him smarter though.
And I agree doom has the magic edge.
Im just saying. What happens if doom gets hit with the same blast that mindraped thor? Or even better a devolving blast? Do you have examples of these blasts? I don't remember what you're referring to.

Doom has actually resisted one of High Evolutionary's devices that transformed the entire world's population out of sheer will.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by ODG
Do you have examples of these blasts? I don't remember what you're referring to.

Doom has actually resisted one of High Evolutionary's devices that transformed the entire world's population out of sheer will. It was in his fight with thor, although he caught thor off guard, he hit thor with a blast to the head that mindraped him. thor was out cold the rest of the comic.

He also mindraped Moondragon if that counts as anything.

Iirc his creation "man beast" also mindraped thor before.

ODG
^ I don't recall any of this. And I've read a lot. I do recall Thor beating the ever-loving crap out of Man-Beast the first time they fought. Is there another battle I missed?

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by ODG
^ I don't recall any of this. And I've read a lot. I do recall Thor beating the ever-loving crap out of Man-Beast the first time they fought. Is there another battle I missed? Yea you missed the thor vs high evolutionary fight. And HE mindphucking moondragon. Ill try to post the scans.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by Galan007
H-E owns Thor:

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2526/he1km1.th.jpg http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9554/he2pz5.th.jpg http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6185/he3vm8.th.jpg http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6471/he4fz5.th.jpg http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/145/he5rd1.th.jpg

Also he created counter earth with his mental powers. I cant imagine doom creating planets with his mind.
Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Moondragon attempts to read the High Evolutionary's mind.... and fails!

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/101/conquest25ei6.th.jpg

Colossus-Big C
Here is when he devolved galactus
Originally posted by Evolve
High Evolutionary vs Galactus!

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/FF_175p000-001.th.jpg
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/FF_175p002-003.th.jpg
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/FF_175p006-007.th.jpg
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/FF_175p014-015.th.jpg

Thats right!...High Evolutionary turns Big G into a big pulsating brain to end his hunger

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/FF_175p022-023.th.jpg
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/FF_175p026-027.th.jpg

Colossus-Big C
Also

Originally posted by Evolve
HE can transfer his essence across the universe. Here in a celestial ship, one of the Young Gods states the High E's powers is beyond their own.


http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/t144080_spectacularspidermanannual0806.jpg http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/t144079_spectacularspidermanannual0807.jpg http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/t144078_spectacularspidermanannual0809.jpg
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/t144077_spectacularspidermanannual0810.jpg http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/t144076_spectacularspidermanannual0811.jpg http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/t144075_spectacularspidermanannual0812.jpg
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/t144074_spectacularspidermanannual0813.jpg http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/t144073_spectacularspidermanannual0833.jpg

ODG
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b346/starrwulfe/53f7ba06f428024e780c585a4e49bb58.jpg

Mindset
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Also he created counter earth with his mental powers. I cant imagine doom creating planets with his mind. So he beat Thor when he let his guard down and Moondragon couldn't read his mind.

Awesome.

Doom beats him.

basilisk
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
HE upgraded ulik, and diablo used HE technology to power the destroyer armor and siphon power from all the skyfathers of earth including odin. The sad thing about that arc was that Diablo was actually running the show and had taken control of HE the whole time.

Hyperion Prime
Evolutionary wins this. He has made himself a god.

Mindset
Doom is God.

Angel Watching
Evolutionary wins. fight goes on a little longer

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