Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

No bfr.

Who wins

meanie

Wow.

All I know is that Superman can dish out more punishment than anything the X-Men did to Kuurth.

Is it enough? Probably not.

I knew this was coming

Tanking a bunch of dirty ass mutants doesn't make you ready for Superman

Kuurth stomps and an amped hope and Magneto was some of those mutants that Kuurth tanked.

Well according to my thread Kuurth > Black Racer > Superman

Originally posted by byrdgang21
Well according to my thread Kuurth > Black Racer > Superman

Pretty much. Classic Jugs=Thor=Superman<Kuurth. This is a stomp.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Tanking a bunch of dirty ass mutants doesn't make you ready for Superman Kuurt is very durable physically.

By the way all the xmen were using exotic powers not physical punches. Telepathy, bfr etc

really don't see how clark can win this.....

Originally posted by carver9
Pretty much. Classic Jugs=Thor=Superman<Kuurth. This is a stomp.

Not to mention Kuurth is powered by a shit ton of magical power. Clark is in trouble.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Tanking a bunch of dirty ass mutants doesn't make you ready for Superman

Originally posted by carver9
Pretty much. Classic Jugs=Thor=Superman<Kuurth. This is a stomp.

How in the world is classic Juggernaut equal to Superman? What kind of crack do you use?

Anyone who thinks Kuurth is above the Black Racer needs a slap in the face.

Superman is protected by the powers of be. Superman cannot be destroyed by any means. He is an Icon to all of comicverse.

Superman will put on a very good show, but in the end, even he will not be able to get past Kuurth's strength, durability, and untiring nature. Cain was a fully stack-able character as Kuurth. Alone, Cain was enchanted by Cyttorak as we all know, he was a very heavy hitter due to his impossible durabilitty. There is no way that Superman can stand there and bang out with him, if he did, he would lose. The beating would eventually be worse than his DOS beating (yes I know it was a tie). Unlike Doomsday, Kuurth would not be hurt in the least by Superman's most powerful blows. He'd end up depleting his reserves and lose.

not supey

Fcukk FP Kuurth... He wins though...

Originally posted by -Pr-
Anyone who thinks Kuurth is above the Black Racer needs a slap in the face.

probably kuurth. wonder if doomsday would do better.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Anyone who thinks Kuurth is above the Black Racer needs a slap punch in the face.


Regarding this fight, if Superman doesn't want to be touched by Kuurth, he won't be. Adding to that, the amount of sheer power Superman brings to this fight >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything Kuurth went up against in his showdown with the X-Men.

The only unknown here is how well Superman would take a hit from a magical hammer wielded by a Herald level being.

Originally posted by Nihilist
No bfr.

Who wins

Why post spite threads?
No one here is such a Superman fan that says he will beat Kuurth.

You wasted time with this thread indeed.

Originally posted by zopzop

The only unknown here is how well Superman would take a hit from a magical hammer wielded by a Herald level being.

It didn't work for Thor.

Originally posted by Cogito
All I know is that Superman can dish out more punishment than anything the X-Men did to Kuurth.

Is it enough? Probably not.

you know nothing john snow.

Originally posted by zopzop


Regarding this fight, if Superman doesn't want to be touched by Kuurth, he won't be. Adding to that, the amount of sheer power Superman brings to this fight >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything Kuurth went up against in his showdown with the X-Men.

The only unknown here is how well Superman would take a hit from a magical hammer wielded by a Herald level being.

good thing superman never gets hit unless he wants to. His long comic history has surely proven that...

Originally posted by keiththegreat


thumbs up for biased!

Kuurth takes this..he's just more powerful..

Superman, at best, could fight defensively and prevent Kuurth from mounting a decent offensive, but really, that's about it.

I don't subscribe to the no-limits fallacy of Kuurth others might, but I have a hard time thinking of how Kal could best him for a forum win.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
good thing superman never gets hit unless he wants to. His long comic history has surely proven that...
Have you seen how Kuurth "fights", he's a lumbering off. Superman is a confirmed blitzer. Cut the crap.

Wasn't Collosusnaut getting his bones broken when he was fighting Kuurth as a herald of the serpent? if that collosusnaut's bones were breaking why won't kuurth's? The Serpent had to pull Kuurth out of there because he would have ended up losing but the fact is, he was able to hurt Collosusnaut so Kuurth would can be hurt as well. I was more impressed by Nul tbh.

Kuurt seems pretty powerful

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/076FearItself-UncannyX-Men541-Page21.jpg

But, This seems awfully familiar, except for the fact that Doomsday is NOT AMPED, he is steam rolling the JLA (not the best JLA btw, but decent), with one hand behind his back and the some JLA members RUN out of energy trying to stop Doomsday, meaning that they did really went all out trying to stop Doomsday.

And Pre power up Superman alone stalemated THAT character who is steam rolling the JLA, now add that to the fact that Superman has 2 power upgrades after that and seems like a good match up.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/JLA_V2_069_14.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Supermanv2074-12.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Supermanv2074-13.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Supermanv2074-14.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Supermanv2074-15.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Supermanv2074-16.jpg

Just saying.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Superman, at best, could fight defensively and prevent Kuurth from mounting a decent offensive, but really, that's about it.

I don't subscribe to the no-limits fallacy of Kuurth others might, but I have a hard time thinking of how Kal could best him for a forum win.
I agree with you here. My limit for Classic Juggs is 10x more than the Godblast of Thor in order to just damage him but 20x more in order to damage him in such a way that you can actually win a fight from him.

The reason I come up with these numbers is because Juggs barely felt Thor's Godblast. So I reason something 10x stronger (which is hella reasonable) would damage him. But since Juggs heals, I would say 20x would damage him enough to to have a chance to beat him before he heals back up.

Since Kuurth is backed by both Cyttorak and the Serpent then I would have to say maybe 12-15x to damage him and 22-25x in order to win.

In all other Juggs fights Superman wins because of bfr. But not against Kuurth.

Any attacks in comics possibly greater than 20x a Godblast? I know universe destroyers have that power (Molecule Man, Thanos with IG, Ultimate Nullify-er, etc.)

Originally posted by h1a8
I agree with you here. My limit for Classic Juggs is 10x more than the Godblast of Thor in order to just damage him but 20x more in order to damage him in such a way that you can actually win a fight from him.

The reason I come up with these numbers is because Juggs barely felt Thor's Godblast. So I reason something 10x stronger (which is hella reasonable) would damage him. But since Juggs heals, I would say 20x would damage him enough to to have a chance to beat him before he heals back up.

Since Kuurth is backed by both Cyttorak and the Serpent then I would have to say maybe 12-15x to damage him and 22-25x in order to win.

In all other Juggs fights Superman wins because of bfr. But not against Kuurth.

Any attacks in comics possibly greater than 20x a Godblast? I know universe destroyers have that power (Molecule Man, Thanos with IG, Ultimate Nullify-er, etc.)

Man I hope you didn't pull those numbers out of your ass because that must have hurt.

Originally posted by Diesldude
Wasn't Collosusnaut getting his bones broken when he was fighting Kuurth as a herald of the serpent? if that collosusnaut's bones were breaking why won't kuurth's? The Serpent had to pull Kuurth out of there because he would have ended up losing but the fact is, he was able to hurt Collosusnaut so Kuurth would can be hurt as well. I was more impressed by Nul tbh.

i think you are getting your facts all mixed up

Jugs 10/10

Originally posted by h1a8
My limit for Classic Juggs is 10x more than the Godblast of Thor in order to just damage him but 20x more in order to damage him in such a way that you can actually win a fight from him.

Originally posted by Diesldude
Wasn't Collosusnaut getting his bones broken when he was fighting Kuurth as a herald of the serpent? if that collosusnaut's bones were breaking why won't kuurth's? The Serpent had to pull Kuurth out of there because he would have ended up losing but the fact is, he was able to hurt Collosusnaut so Kuurth would can be hurt as well. I was more impressed by Nul tbh. Because Colossusnaut only had Cytorrak's power and not Cytorrak's power + the Worthy's power. This is FP Kuurth. And Serpent arguably pulled normal Kuurth out because Colossusnaut was reversing the runes' energies back onto themselves.

Which was a result of Colossusnaut' magical unstoppability. Something Superman is not going to replicate on a FP Kuurth who will, in fact, be magically unstoppable.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris


Originally posted by Cogito
Man I hope you didn't pull those numbers out of your ass because that must have hurt.

Ok if a Godblast barely tickles Juggs then how many times more power does one need to actually damage him?

How many times more force does someone have to apply over being tickled to damage you? 5x stronger tickle, 10x stronger tickle?

Originally posted by ODG
Because Colossusnaut only had Cytorrak's power and not Cytorrak's power + the Worthy's power. This is FP Kuurth. And Serpent arguably pulled normal Kuurth out because Colossusnaut was reversing the runes' energies back onto themselves.

Which was a result of Colossusnaut' magical unstoppability. Something Superman is not going to replicate on a FP Kuurth who will, in fact, be magically unstoppable. I never questioned colossusnaut's unstoppability, I bring up the fact that he was getting his bones broken by a sub-Thor level being. The thing that gives kuurt his invulnerability is also the same thing giving collosuanaut his. Their fight proves that Kuurt at full power isn't as invulnerable as many here believe and he can be hurt by physical blows.

Originally posted by Diesldude
I never questioned colossusnaut's unstoppability, I bring up the fact that he was getting his bones broken by a sub-Thor level being. This kinda shows you that kuurt isn't as invulnerable as many here believe and he can be hurt by physical blows.

That wasn't a full powered Kuurth.

Originally posted by carver9
That wasn't a full powered Kuurth. ok a differnt angle, i know others got what i said but ill clarify, what makes full power kuurt invulnerable? The gem of cytorak? Well collosusnaut had it and he was getting his bones broken so why would a full powered kuurt be more invulnerable?

Originally posted by Diesldude
I never questioned colossusnaut's unstoppability, I bring up the fact that he was getting his bones broken by a sub-Thor level being. The thing that gives kuurt his invulnerability is also the same thing giving collosuanaut his. Their fight proves that Kuurt at full power isn't as invulnerable as many here believe and he can be hurt by physical blows. Juggernaut never had his bones even broken by Thor, much less Thor's ultimate attack: the Godblast.

Colossusnaut =/= FP Kuurth anymore than Colossusnaut =/= Juggernaut.

Accordingly, substituting Collosusnaut's feats/stats for FP Kuurth's isn't very reliable.

Originally posted by Diesldude
I never questioned colossusnaut's unstoppability, I bring up the fact that he was getting his bones broken by a sub-Thor level being. The thing that gives kuurt his invulnerability is also the same thing giving collosuanaut his. Their fight proves that Kuurt at full power isn't as invulnerable as many here believe and he can be hurt by physical blows. How is kuurth sub thor?
Thor may have defeated angrigir and nnul but that doesnt mean he is more ppwerful than any worthy. He friggin passed out after he bfred nul who wasnt even phased by it.


Also colossusnaut doesnt have classic juggernauts durability. Cyttorak powers are working different on him.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
How is kuurth sub thor?
Thor may have defeated angrigir and nnul but that doesnt mean he is more ppwerful than any worthy. He friggin passed out after he bfred nul who wasnt even phased by it.


Also colossusnaut doesnt have classic juggernauts durability. Cyttorak powers are working different on him.

I was thinking the same thing. I don't believe that Thor KO'd Nul, as you see an unaudible speech bubble a second after he was sent flying off into space. Thor did not hurt Nul, and if bfr was not an option, I think he would have lost hard.

Nul's speech was not capable of being heard because he was in a vacuum.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
How is kuurth sub thor?
Thor may have defeated angrigir and nnul but that doesnt mean he is more ppwerful than any worthy. He friggin passed out after he bfred nul who wasnt even phased by it.


Also colossusnaut doesnt have classic juggernauts durability. Cyttorak powers are working different on him.


That Kurrth no longer had the backing from Cytorak, so he was a human with an amp from the serpent and compare that to angrir. Kurrth that was fighing colossus and breaking his bones was at or below Angrir and you know what thor did to him right?
So I am not wrong to say that Colossusnaut was fighting a being below Thor level.
And this guy was breaking Collosusnaut's bones.

Originally posted by ODG
Juggernaut never had his bones even broken by Thor, much less Thor's ultimate attack: the Godblast.

Colossusnaut =/= FP Kuurth anymore than Colossusnaut =/= Juggernaut.

Accordingly, substituting Collosusnaut's feats/stats for FP Kuurth's isn't very reliable.

I am not comparing colossusnaut with FP Kurrth, i am comparing powers. Was there any statement that said that juggernaut's powers worked differently based on who had them? I am going by how the powers of Juggernaut were portrayed at the time Kurrth was a worthy. The juggernauts powers at the time Kurrt was in comics allowed for his bones to be broken.
This thread doesn't say full powered Kurrth with Classic juggernaut's durability. FP Kurrth can be hurt and have his bones broken and it won't take 20x godblast like h1 says to do it.

Originally posted by Diesldude
I am not comparing colossusnaut with FP Kurrth, i am comparing powers. Was there any statement that said that juggernaut's powers worked differently based on who had them? I am going by how the powers of Juggernaut were portrayed at the time Kurrth was a worthy. The juggernauts powers at the time Kurrt was in comics allowed for his bones to be broken.
This thread doesn't say full powered Kurrth with Classic juggernaut's durability. There was no statement that said that Juggernaut's worked the same based on who had them either. Which is what you appear to be assuming even though clearly, it does depend on who has them.

This thread says FP Kuurth. It doesn't say Kuurth with Collosusnaut's durability.

Originally posted by ODG
There was no statement that said that Juggernaut's worked the same based on who had them either. Which is what you appear to be assuming even though clearly, it does depend on who has them.

This thread says FP Kuurth. It doesn't say Kuurth with Collosusnaut's durability.

So, are you are saying that Colossus only got the unstoppability and not the durability?

Originally posted by Diesldude
So, are you are saying that Colossus only got the unstoppability and not the durability?

It seemed pretty clear that's what happened. He was only just getting into his powers, after all. And we have seen since then that Colossaunaut has levels of power which he can access.

As for the thread, Kuurth wins.

Originally posted by Stoic
I was thinking the same thing. I don't believe that Thor KO'd Nul, as you see an unaudible speech bubble a second after he was sent flying off into space. Thor did not hurt Nul, and if bfr was not an option, I think he would have lost hard.

Nul's speech was not capable of being heard because he was in a vacuum.

Nul was greater than Angrir right? so obviously, not all worthies were at the same power level, right..

So what made Nul stronger than angrir?
Angrir was Thing + amp from the serpent
and
Nul was WWH + amp from the serpent.
So what do we have with Kurrth who fought with Colossusnaut?
not juggernaut + amp from serpent, I'll be generous and say the strongest man alive with an amp from the serpent.

This is still less than thing + amp from the serpent. And we know how he stacked with Thor right?

Originally posted by Diesldude
So, are you are saying that Colossus only got the unstoppability and not the durability? I'm saying that since Collosusnaut clearly didn't get the same level of durability that Juggernaut got, how can you be so sure he got the same durability that FP Kuurth got?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It seemed pretty clear that's what happened. He was only just getting into his powers, after all. And we have seen since then that Colossaunaut has levels of power which he can access.

As for the thread, Kuurth wins. So you can switch durability on and off?

If you're a magical deity who lives in another dimension, and you're granting (key word here) power to a lackey, yes, you can.

Even more so if your lackey has to access his power by giving into his destructive tendencies.

Originally posted by ODG
I'm saying that since Collosusnaut clearly didn't get the same level of durability that Juggernaut got, how can you be so sure he got the same durability that FP Kuurth got?

Do we have the juggernaut ever discribe a fight the way colossus did?
Cytorrak took away his powers from FP kurrth and made colossus his new avatar but there is no proof that he witheld powers from him. matter of fact IIRC it is even stated he gave him more.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If you're a magical deity who lives in another dimension, and you're granting (key word here) power to a lackey, yes, you can.

Even more so if your lackey has to access his power by giving into his destructive tendencies.
Seriously? I know you want FP kurrt to win, i understand that but are you saying that now the powers of juggernaut are granted incrementally? I never heard of this stance before? is this something new or are you just saying this because it backs up your position?

Originally posted by Diesldude
Do we have the juggernaut ever discribe a fight the way colossus did?
Cytorrak took away his powers from FP kurrth and made colossus his new avatar but there is no proof that he witheld powers from him. matter of fact IIRC it is even stated he gave him more. No. We don't have the Juggernaut ever describe a fight the way Colossus did. But he isn't the kind of stoic guy that wouldn't mention his bones being broken and his skull being cracked if that's what indeed was happening to him. Because he has mentioned that sort of stuff when he was depowered and he was getting wrecked.

I don't see where it was noted that Cytorrak gave Collossusnaut more power than he ever gave to FP Kuurth. Cytorrak was quite happy with FP Kuurth before he realized that he was the Serpent's servant.

Originally posted by Diesldude
Seriously? I know you want FP kurrt to win, i understand that but are you saying that now the powers of juggernaut are granted incrementally? I never heard of this stance before? is this something new or are you just saying this because it backs up your position?

Did you see AvX, when Colossus was fighting Rulk underwater? He was normal, then gave into his dark side or whatever, then had Doomsday like armoured spikes coming out everywhere. Proceeds to kill Rulk, until Rulk shows him he's damaging Utopia's support pillar. Colossus then powers down, and let's him smash him up.

So there are levels to the power.

Originally posted by ODG
No. We don't have the Juggernaut ever describe a fight the way Colossus did. But he isn't the kind of stoic guy that wouldn't mention his bones being broken and his skull being cracked if that's what indeed was happening to him. Because he has mentioned that sort of stuff when he was depowered and he was getting wrecked.

I don't see where it was noted that Cytorrak gave Collossusnaut more power than he ever gave to FP Kuurth. Cytorrak was quite happy with FP Kuurth before he realized that he was the Serpent's servant.
Last post on this, i made my case, we'll agree to disagree then..

On to my post
You have full powered Kurrth.
What made this full powered kurrth special as compared to other worties?
The powers granted by cytorak. Now these powers were taken from him and given to Colossus.

This colossus with the powers taken from fp kurrth was really unstoppable but also had his bones broken.

Now you takes these powers back from colossus and give them back to kurrth, now is he going to be more invulnerable? I don't think so.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Did you see AvX, when Colossus was fighting Rulk underwater? He was normal, then gave into his dark side or whatever, then had Doomsday like armoured spikes coming out everywhere. Proceeds to kill Rulk, until Rulk shows him he's damaging Utopia's support pillar. Colossus then powers down, and let's him smash him up.

So there are levels to the power.
This is like the juggernaut with the helmet to increase his invulnerability.
But the inherent durability that is part of the powerset granted by the gem of cytorak is not something you can turn off and then turn back on its always there.

^ Except it has been turned on and off, by both Cytorrak and by his avatars.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Except it has been turned on and off, by both Cytorrak and by his avatars. Can't deny that because it's up to Cytorrak. But why would you purposely handicap yourself before a fight?

^ Because Cytorrak is a capricious jerk and sometimes the avatar wants to lose, like Collosusnaut wanted to lose against Rulk before his rage consumed him and he further endangered Utopia.

Wait a minute. Too many people don't know this but Cyttorak took his powers from Cain more than once and Cain was still as strong as Colossus, even while being depowered. For some strange reason, Cain body stores the Cytorakk powers within him. Hell, he defeated Rhino and Cytorrak wasn't giving him any of his powers. With that said, its debatable if Cain without the Serpent powers was a regular human.

Originally posted by carver9
Wait a minute. Too many people don't know this but Cyttorak took his powers from Cain more than once and Cain was still as strong as Colossus, even while being depowered. For some strange reason, Cain body stores the Cytorakk powers within him. Hell, he defeated Rhino and Cytorrak wasn't giving him any of his powers. With that said, its debatable if Cain without the Serpent powers was a regular human.

Cain was stated as not being as strong as pre-death Colossus, if you believe what Beast said.

And Colossus got an amp after he came back.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Cain was stated as not being as strong as pre-death Colossus, if you believe what Beast said.

And Colossus got an amp after he came back.

But he was lifting weights that Colossus struggled with. He was as strong if not stronger. The point of this is, Cain body stores Cytorrak power.

Originally posted by Stoic
I was thinking the same thing. I don't believe that Thor KO'd Nul, as you see an unaudible speech bubble a second after he was sent flying off into space. Thor did not hurt Nul, and if bfr was not an option, I think he would have lost hard.

Nul's speech was not capable of being heard because he was in a vacuum.

While I don't disagree...the vacuum in space has not stopped people from being heard before. Comic logic FTW

Originally posted by Zack Fair
While I don't disagree...the vacuum in space has not stopped people from being heard before. Comic logic FTW


The thing that helps his case is...Nul was knocked "away" from Earth, past the moon and past a planet, he made a U-Turn in space and was heading back to earth. Someone unconscious can't turn in space which is what Nul did.

As for Cain being depowered. Here is a Cain that wasn't getting any power from Cytorrak.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/84399283zt4.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/77/27974227qg4.jpg/

^^ Cain is a mutant and is a physically big man. So he would be strong, but I dont think he is in Ben or Colossus' class.
So now cain stores cytorrak's powers? I just love how people are coming up with new hypothesis every other post. I do see where you are going with this though. You want to say that it takes more power than what thor had to hurt Cytorrak's avatar at that time.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Because Cytorrak is a capricious jerk and sometimes the avatar wants to lose, like Collosusnaut wanted to lose against Rulk before his rage consumed him and he further endangered Utopia.
You can say Colossus got serious but he isn't the hulk and he doesn't get more powerful as he gets angrier. I havn't read this story, but him going godslayer isn't a power displayed by juggernaut or kurrth. This is something new not something displayed by kurrth.

Unless they come out and say that colossusnaut was fighting at less than 100% against kurrth we have to go with what was shown and it was shown that he had all of the powers that were granted to kurrth, which were then taken from kurrth and given to colossus. Note the unstoppability that you mentioned earlier. :-)

Side note, first time i think I have ever gone back and forth with you. Glad that we kept it civil not saying that you are uncivil/condenscending in your posts.

Originally posted by carver9
But he was lifting weights that Colossus struggled with. He was as strong if not stronger. The point of this is, Cain body stores Cytorrak power.

Who said Colossus struggled with them?

Cain was the one struggling, iirc.

@Diesldude...

Ok, did I miss something? When was it stated that Cain was a mutant? Cytorrak wasn't lending Cain any powers but Cain was still a class 90 or low class 100. Cytorrak taking his powers during his fight against Colossonaut doesnt mean he still didn't have a fragment of it stored in him since we've seen on NUMEROUS of occasions that Cain without Cytorrak lending him powers is still super strong.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Who said Colossus struggled with them?

Cain was the one struggling, iirc.


IIRC...wasn't he lifting a little more than Colossus during the time the weight was placed on him?

Originally posted by carver9
IIRC...wasn't he lifting a little more than Colossus during the time the weight was placed on him?

IIRC it said that he was struggling with weight that Colossus could lift.

And that was pre-second amp Colossus too.

Originally posted by carver9
@Diesldude...

Ok, did I miss something? When was it stated that Cain was a mutant? Cytorrak wasn't lending Cain any powers but Cain was still a class 90 or low class 100. Cytorrak taking his powers during his fight against Colossonaut doesnt mean he still didn't have a fragment of it stored in him since we've seen on NUMEROUS of occasions that Cain without Cytorrak lending him powers is still super strong.

my bad, sorry.. not sure why but I always though he was a mutant. probably because of his relation with Charles.

Originally posted by Diesldude
my bad, sorry.. not sure why but I always though he was a mutant. probably because of his relation with Charles.

It's ok but They are step brothers.

Originally posted by -Pr-
IIRC it said that he was struggling with weight that Colossus could lift.

And that was pre-second amp Colossus too.


You MIGHT be right and why are you saying "pre-second" amp? Colossus before his second amp was still a class 100.

Colossus has 3 forms now sans phoenix force. Regular Colossus, juggy Colossus and demon Colossus.

Just curious how would you guys rank them in terms of strength and durabilty?

Serpent powered Cain, Classic Juggs, Colossus w/ gem, Serpent and gem powered Cain, Demon Colossus, pf and cyttorak powered Colossus (lol) and 8th day juggs.

Originally posted by Diesldude
You can say Colossus got serious but he isn't the hulk and he doesn't get more powerful as he gets angrier. I havn't read this story, but him going godslayer isn't a power displayed by juggernaut or kurrth. This is something new not something displayed by kurrth.

Unless they come out and say that colossusnaut was fighting at less than 100% against kurrth we have to go with what was shown and it was shown that he had all of the powers that were granted to kurrth and were taken from him and given to colossus. Note the unstoppability that you mentioned earlier. :-)

Side note, first time i think I ever gone back and forth with you. Glad that we kept it civil Colossusnaut's appearances should make it clear that the more he revels in destruction, the more power he accesses.

You should also recognize that Cytorrak doesn't make all of his avatars equal. This is clear because Colossusnaut isn't equal to Juggernaut. It depends on Cytorrak's mood. And he has fluctuated a single avatar's power, Juggernaut, numerous times. In the face of these facts, reverse-projecting Colossusnaut's stats/powers onto FP Kuurth is dubious.

Yep. Cain's power level were all over the place most of the time. especially his force field.

Originally posted by carver9
You MIGHT be right and why are you saying "pre-second" amp? Colossus before his second amp was still a class 100.

No he wasn't. Sure he had high and low feats, but he was still generally in the 75-80 bracket.

We both know I'm usually right, so how about you just believe me and we can move on?

Originally posted by -Pr-
No he wasn't. Sure he had high and low feats, but he was still generally in the 75-80 bracket.

We both know I'm usually right, so how about you just believe me and we can move on?

No, just hell no. You aren't always right and I'm pretty sure you might not be right this time, I just don't have the comic in front of me right now.

Colossus was above the 75-80 ton class since the 90's.

You are getting your Colossus mixed up. He really didn't have any low fts during this era either when its concerning his strength.

Originally posted by carver9
No, just hell no. You aren't always right and I'm pretty sure you might not be right this time, I just don't have the comic in front of me right now.

Colossus was above the 75-80 ton class since the 90's.

You are getting your Colossus mixed up. He really didn't have any low fts during this era either when its concerning his strength.

I'm right more than you are, which is generally enough for me.

No, he wasn't. His feats were too inconsistent to put him higher on a consistent basis.

He had low durability ones though, and with Colossus his durability has always been more impressive than his strength.

He wasn't a consistently class 100 guy until Whedon brought him back to life.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm right more than you are, which is generally enough for me.

No, he wasn't. His feats were too inconsistent to put him higher on a consistent basis.

He had low durability ones though, and with Colossus his durability has always been more impressive than his strength.

He wasn't a consistently class 100 guy until Whedon brought him back to life.


I agree, his durability fts were all over the place but his strength was consistent. Back in the 80's, you might have an argument for him not being a class 100 but during the 90's his strength jumped significantly. Don't understand why you can't accept this, especially since we both know he has the fts backing this up.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree, his durability fts were all over the place but his strength was consistent. Back in the 80's, you might have an argument for him not being a class 100 but during the 90's his strength jumped significantly. Don't understand why you can't accept this, especially since we both know he has the fts backing this up.

His strength feats averaged out at about 75-80, which was why I said it.

His strength jumped during the Morlock Massacre, yes, but before that he had been weaker in the first place.

Don't presume to tell me what I do or don't know, please. That kind of patronising attitude won't wash.

Originally posted by ODG
Colossusnaut's appearances should make it clear that the more he revels in destruction, the more power he accesses.

You should also recognize that Cytorrak doesn't make all of his avatars equal.

This is clear because Colossusnaut isn't equal to Juggernaut. It depends on Cytorrak's mood. And he has fluctuated a single avatar's power, Juggernaut, numerous times.

That's fine, it's usually shown, stated and explained or the writer makes up his own powerset. We don't have that here with colossusnaut, we have to go with what was shown at that time and that was his bones breaking.

Originally posted by ODG
In the face of these facts, reverse-projecting Colossusnaut's stats/powers onto FP Kuurth is dubious.

Ok, i'll give it another try. I am working on firewall upgrade so couldnt come up with a better example, let's say I gave carver 5 bucks, he pisses me off and I take it back and give it to H1. Did I give h1 less than what I gave Carver?

I can withold a buck(durability) and give him 4 but the only way to know is if H1 tells us that he only got 4 or I come out and say I gave him 4 only. We don't have that from Colossus or from Cytorrak. We have to go by what was shown at that time and that was Colossunaut with powers taken from FP kurrth had his bones broken.

This is why I believe superman can hurt fp kurrth and have him coming up on top.

Originally posted by Diesldude
That's fine, it's usually shown, stated and explained or the writer makes up his own powerset. We don't have that here with colossusnaut, we have to go with what was shown at that time and that was his bones breaking.

Ok, i'll give it another try. I am working on firewall upgrade so couldnt come up with a better example, let's say I gave carver 5 bucks, he pisses me off and I take it back and give it to H1. Did I give h1 less than what I gave Carver?

I can withold a buck(durability) and give him 4 but the only way to know is if H1 tells us that he only got 4 or I come out and say I gave him 4 only. We don't have that from Colossus or from Cytorrak. We have to go by what was shown at that time and that was Colossunaut with powers taken from FP kurrth had his bones broken.

This is why I believe superman can hurt fp kurrth and have him coming up on top. Or we can go by how its been shown that Cyclops did not faze FP Kuurth in the slightest but Cyclops has eyebeamed Colossusnaut's helmet off with a single beam.

They're not on the same level of durability. FP Kuurth was far closer to classic Juggernaut than he ever was to Colossusnaut... and then some. After all, Juggernaut never displayed the type of tp resistance that FP Kuurth displayed sans helmet. Juggernaut never displayed the ability to immediately return from being BFR'ed by teleportation like FP Kuurth did. Juggernaut never levitated over open air or outright flew like FP Kuurth did.

This is why few believe that FP Kuurth operated on Colossusnaut's level of power. Or, for that matter, even classic Juggernaut's. Because he didn't.

juggernaut did actually "levitate" in his first appearance when assaulting the x-men. jean levitated him yet his unstoppably allowed him to advance forward as if he were walking on solid ground, it's not entirely the same thing but whatever.

^ crackers

Silence, or I'll honor you again. uhuh

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/gifs/bball2_4_gif3.gif

bump

Stalemate or Superman.

Kuurth in a massive stomp.

Supes.

jbl only showing his pussy when a superman thread shows up LOL

Originally posted by ghostman
jbl only showing his pussy when a superman thread shows up LOL Does his choice "triggers" you?

OWAW Superman or FC could pull this one. But it's hard to imagine how Kuurth can be overcome physically. However, Kuurth is to slow to win against a non CIS Superman. So either stalemate or Supes.

Originally posted by vansonbee
Does his choice "triggers" you? He can't help it. He's so programmed to cry... Superman wins! Superman wins! Superman wins!!, that I doubt he knows the definition of the word triggered. I'm going to write the definition on supermans right butt cheek so that he can read and learn what it means.

Ask one of your writer friends to do it, friend!

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Ask one of your writer friends to do it, friend! I might after the Christmas gathering and New Years party.Friend.

Originally posted by JBL
Kuurth in a massive stomp.

KUURTH DIES!!!!

We've seen that at peak confidence the magick weakness is virtually negated, as it is a function of his mental state and psychological misunderstanding of magick.

Originally posted by h1a8
I wasn't thinking straight. In no way do I think Superman wins. I just forgot about the speed and perception difference in this fight.
Stalemate imo.

But Superman would eventually grow tired right? There is no time limit on this fight, so how would this work in the long run? We could be talking about, weeks, months, years, decades or even centuries as Kuurth does not tire.

The only way this is a stalemate or Superman standing any type of chance in this fight is if we have him fighting in ways we've never seen him display in a comic.

Originally posted by carver9
The only way this is a stalemate or Superman standing any type of chance in this fight is if we have him fighting in ways we've never seen him display in a comic.
..Or he could just punch him into submission. like the last time.

Originally posted by carver9
The only way this is a stalemate or Superman standing any type of chance in this fight is if we have him fighting in ways we've never seen him display in a comic. So what would be the reason why Superman is looking at an attack coming at him in super slow motion and decides not to get out of the way? Is he literally that stupid?

Originally posted by carver9
The only way this is a stalemate or Superman standing any type of chance in this fight is if we have him fighting in ways we've never seen him display in a comic.

like what carver?? oh we will wait

iirc Superman and Wonder Woman fought for years on end in Valhalla

10,000 years iirc.

Maybe he can fight while asleep.

Tarquism-Vo astral battle win.

Because otherwise this is spite even against regular Juggernaut, seeing he can't be beaten down.

Originally posted by Stoic
There is no time limit. Kuurth does not need to eat, breathe, or sleep. He is also immortal, and bfr does not work on him. If they had to stand in one spot banging it out Superman would eventually grow tired. Superman also sleeps at night doesn't he? Prove that he is immortal or even long lived.

Superman doesn't need to sleep. This has been established a long time ago.
The sun constantly sustains him. He will never tire as long as he gains more than he exerts. Once Superman understands that physical force cannot put Kuurth down. He just dodges the rest of the fight.

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove that he is immortal or even long lived.

Superman doesn't need to sleep. This has been established a long time ago.
The sun constantly sustains him. He will never tire as long as he gains more than he exerts. Once Superman understands that physical force cannot put Kuurth down. He just dodges the rest of the fight.

A few things that we should work through.

Full powered Kuurth is immortal. The Juggernaut is immortal due to the enchantment. He no longer requires food, sleep, and he does not age. he doesn't even need flesh to continue existing. If you need more proof google his character bio.

Superman has gotten tired in comics. When he fought Doomsday he began to tire, so we know that he can become tired.

It was mentioned that he fought Wonder Woman for thousands of years, so this is either a contradiction or Wonder Woman did not possess enough power to make him tired. He either tires or he doesn't right?

Now I guess we will need to figure out if Wonder Woman would be able to defeat Kuurth, or if he hits hard enough to rival Doomsday's might.

Superman fights a certain way. i have seen him dodge Doomsday Rex, so you may be correct, but this was after DOS Doomsday put him in a deep coma. Superman typically bangs out with his opponents because of his belief that he can take it. Don't make it seem as if he'd jump to this tactic off the bat. In other words don't fight for him.

Originally posted by Stoic
A few things that we should work through.

Full powered Kuurth is immortal. The Juggernaut is immortal due to the enchantment. He no longer requires food, sleep, and he does not age. he doesn't even need flesh to continue existing. If you need more proof google his character bio.

Superman has gotten tired in comics. When he fought Doomsday he began to tire, so we know that he can become tired.

Bios are irrelevant. You must prove it using the primary source.

You didn't read my argument correctly. I already knew that Superman gets tired if he exerts energy FASTER than he absorbs. I clearly stated that if Superman is absorbing more energy than he is using then he will never tire. I said that once he realizes that he can't put Kuurth down then he would just evade the entire fight. This would allow him to gain more energy than he is using (he would stop attacking).


I understand. But Kuurth isn't one shotting Superman. Superman would take a blow or two to know how tough his opponent is. After all that, eventually Superman realizes that he has to dodge (he knows that he can't put Kuurth at that point)

Originally posted by h1a8
Bios are irrelevant. You must prove it using the primary source.

You didn't read my argument correctly. I already knew that Superman gets tired if he exerts energy FASTER than he absorbs. I clearly stated that if Superman is absorbing more energy than he is using then he will never tire. I said that once he realizes that he can't put Kuurth down then he would just evade the entire fight. This would allow him to gain more energy than he is using (he would stop attacking).


I understand. But Kuurth isn't one shotting Superman. Superman would take a blow or two to know how tough his opponent is. After all that, eventually Superman realizes that he has to dodge (he knows that he can't put Kuurth at that point)

1. Bios are not irrelevant when we are talking about power set. The Juggernaut is immortal, and since we are talking about a full powered Kuurth linked directly to the enchantment Kuurth is also immortal. Cytorrak at one point had to be made aware that Cain had become bonded by the rogue spirit that had him imprisoned. I am not using the bio to prove a feat so it can be used.

2. I read your entire post. I had no problem understanding it. Did you read my post correctly?

What we have to prove is whether or not Kuurth would be able to tire Superman out, while Superman fights in character, and not the way that we want him to fight.

The majority of times he bangs out with his opponent. Doomsday did not one shot Superman, nor did I ever suggest that Kuurth would do this. You seem to want to go on the defensive, while I'm simply trying to simulate the way a fight would go down between these two strangers.

Just because Superman decides to stop attacking, why or what would that have to do with Kuurth's approach to battle?

What would happen if Kuurth grabbed Superman? Would he begin dodging, and if so how would he do that exactly? We know that Kuurth does actully tend to get into grapple matches as we saw when he ran into Colossus right?

3. Again, Superman never has to get within reach of Kuurth, but he does not fight this way. I could say that Superman skirts around the battlefield releasing HV whenever he is out of reach, but he never fights this way. This is how I would fight Kuurth with Superman's powers. You would dodge him the entire fight making this a stalemate, but again Superman doesn't fight like this. Does Kuurth ever get a turn to punch? is this a one sided tag your hit Superman fight? Superman gets hit all of the time by characters much slower than Kuurth.

If this becomes an eternal stalemate then whatever, but I'm not buying your approach entirely. Are you saying that if they were in an enclosed space that does not allow for either to dodge and they have to bang it out that....? And I'm going to let you finish my sentence here. What is the answer, because the OP is asking a question that requires an answer outside of run and gun stalemate.

Originally posted by Stoic
1. Bios are not irrelevant when we are talking about power set. The Juggernaut is immortal, and since we are talking about a full powered Kuurth linked directly to the enchantment Kuurth is also immortal. Cytorrak at one point had to be made aware that Cain had become bonded by the rogue spirit that had him imprisoned. I am not using the bio to prove a feat so it can be used.

2. I read your entire post. I had no problem understanding it. Did you read my post correctly?

What we have to prove is whether or not Kuurth would be able to tire Superman out, while Superman fights in character, and not the way that we want him to fight.

The majority of times he bangs out with his opponent. Doomsday did not one shot Superman, nor did I ever suggest that Kuurth would do this. You seem to want to go on the defensive, while I'm simply trying to simulate the way a fight would go down between these two strangers.

Just because Superman decides to stop attacking, why or what would that have to do with Kuurth's approach to battle?

What would happen if Kuurth grabbed Superman? Would he begin dodging, and if so how would he do that exactly? We know that Kuurth does actully tend to get into grapple matches as we saw when he ran into Colossus right?

3. Again, Superman never has to get within reach of Kuurth, but he does not fight this way. I could say that Superman skirts around the battlefield releasing HV whenever he is out of reach, but he never fights this way. This is how I would fight Kuurth with Superman's powers. You would dodge him the entire fight making this a stalemate, but again Superman doesn't fight like this. Does Kuurth ever get a turn to punch? is this a one sided tag your hit Superman fight? Superman gets hit all of the time by characters much slower than Kuurth.

If this becomes an eternal stalemate then whatever, but I'm not buying your approach entirely. Are you saying that if they were in an enclosed space that does not allow for either to dodge and they have to bang it out that....? And I'm going to let you finish my sentence here. What is the answer, because the OP is asking a question that requires an answer outside of run and gun stalemate.

Superman can perceive bullets frozen. Kuurth would be a statue here.

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman can perceive bullets frozen. Kuurth would be a statue here.

Okay, can Kuurth hit Superman? According to canon he can just like every other character slower than Superman has, Look up the CIS ruling.

Can Kuurth hurt Superman with his attacks?

Am I out to make Superman lose? No. However some fans perception of Superman is wrong. He gets hit all of the time. If he was only hit once by opponents slower than he was then it is CIS, but he has a history of being hit. Primarily because in character he believes that he can take it. What you suggest is fanfic, because you are making up a new fighting style for Superman.

Originally posted by Stoic
Okay, can Kuurth hit Superman? According to canon he can just like every other character slower than Superman has, Look up the CIS ruling.

Can Kuurth hurt Superman with his attacks?

Am I out to make Superman lose? No. However some fans perception of Superman is wrong. He gets hit all of the time. If he was only hit once by opponents slower than he was then it is CIS, but he has a history of being hit. Primarily because in character he believes that he can take it. What you suggest is fanfic, because you are making up a new fighting style for Superman. The CIS ruling supports that Superman won't get hit UNLESS he wants to against a slow moving attack.
Superman is gifted in intelligence. He's not stupid enough to to stand there and wait for a frozen in time attack to hit him, unless he wants it to.

Superman gets hit in comics because of plot reasons. He is sometimes written without having speed or reflexes. It has nothing to do with his choice (which CIS is determined by).

That's why we have the FULL CAPACITY rule. The example of flash is given in the rule (it states how he would operate in a forum although he has operated differently in comics due to the plot).

Originally posted by krisblaze
iirc Superman and Wonder Woman fought for years on end in Valhalla

Scans?

Originally posted by "Id"
Scans?
http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/thousandyears1.jpg.html?hotlinkfix=1514220457060

http://photobucket.com/gallery/http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/thousandyears2.jpg.html?hotlinkfix=1514220457530

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/cGF0aDovdGhvdXNhbmR5ZWFyczMuanBn/?ref=&hotlinkfix=1514220531589

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/cGF0aDovdGhvdXNhbmR5ZWFyczQuanBn/?ref=&hotlinkfix=1514220551581

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/cGF0aDovdGhvdXNhbmR5ZWFyczUuanBn/?ref=&hotlinkfix=1514220557558

Originally posted by h1a8
The CIS ruling supports that Superman won't get hit UNLESS he wants to against a slow moving attack.
Superman is gifted in intelligence. He's not stupid enough to to stand there and wait for a frozen in time attack to hit him, unless he wants it to.

Superman gets hit in comics because of plot reasons. He is sometimes written without having speed or reflexes. It has nothing to do with his choice (which CIS is determined by).

That's why we have the FULL CAPACITY rule. The example of flash is given in the rule (it states how he would operate in a forum although he has operated differently in comics due to the plot).

In that case whenever the Hulk is in a thread he begins off with a solar system destroying punch then. Right? Full capacity rule right? You're being ignorant to Superman's character. It isn't plot when he gets hit in fights. It's within his character.

You would have people believe that when Superman fights, he flies in and hits his opponent, observers his opponents twitch muscle fibers, and dodges. You should go and read a Superman comic book. He gets hit all of the time. It would only be PIS if it happened once, but he has an entire history of being hit. He isn't Spiderman. And even Spiderman gets hit. You know what, go ahead with your unrealistic views of a fictional character that has never fought the way that you're making him out to be.

Kuurth would hit him. Rabid Superman fans are worse than DBZ fans. It actually makes fans like me grow a dislike to the character that can't be beaten, hit, slowed, out thought, and a myriad of other things that the more unreasonable fans believe about him.

https://i.imgur.com/6ReYLLC.jpg

Intelligence is a power of Supermans, that he starts out with, though. It's his character. It's like Batman starting with his intelligence,or Tony Stark.

Full knowledge means he knows what Marvel Earth knew...which was that Kuurth was a tough hombre.

Hulk starts with his power of getting stronger the angrier he is. Doesn't mean he's at solar system punching though.

Whenwas he at this level,btw?

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-cb5c5ac2bcf965586fccb4a314ad00b4-c

Isn't that Injustice Superman? Death of Lois and all that?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Isn't that Injustice Superman? Death of Lois and all that?

It is.

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/superman-vs-darkseid-injustice-gods-among-us-4.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Intelligence is a power of Supermans, that he starts out with, though. It's his character. It's like Batman starting with his intelligence,or Tony Stark.

Full knowledge means he knows what Marvel Earth knew...which was that Kuurth was a tough hombre.

Hulk starts with his power of getting stronger the angrier he is. Doesn't mean he's at solar system punching though.

Whenwas he at this level,btw?

During HOTM. Arguing that Superman does not get hit despite a history of him being hit goes against his entire history. It also allows people to fight in his stead. Not how this is supposed to work according to forum rules. His character dictates that he believe that he can take it. If this is the case, Superman basically flies in hits, runs and repeats the tactic until he wins. When has he fought like this?

Yes, it's Injustice.

Stoic, bro... major fail.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Isn't that Injustice Superman? Death of Lois and all that?

Would you like me to take all of the scans of Superman being hit?

Who won that fight

My point is that he gets hit all of the time.

http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2016/03/28/28-doomsday-1.nocrop.w710.h2147483647.2x.jpg

He does that with people he's never met before. Not against say Kuurth who's also unstoppable, and magic on top of that (which he knows he's weak against). Someone who's well known for it.

When has Superman believed he can take on a magical being who's famous for being unstoppable, with an unbreakable etc hammer?

Against Doomsday, or Imperiex probes, when he knew what to do...he flew in, speed blitzed etc.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He does that with people he's never met before. Not against say Kuurth who's also unstoppable, and magic on top of that (which he knows he's weak against). Someone who's well known for it.

When has Superman believed he can take on a magical being who's famous for being unstoppable, with an unbreakable etc hammer?

Against Doomsday, or Imperiex probes, when he knew what to do...he flew in, speed blitzed etc.

So you're saying that Superman has never ever been hit before? Couldn't edit the other post before this. But it was one with him trading punches with Doomsday, and he has never fought Kuurth before. You're arguing as if he has fought Kuurth. Mongul has hit him. Even Batman has hit him. He fought against magical constructs in First Thunder. When does he dodge the majority of the time? Is Superman the only one that gets the full power treatment, while none of the other characters in the forum does as well? My entire point here isn't whether or not Superman will win, but more to the idea that he would get hit. I need to see this Superman with the Spider sense that you guys seem to want to argue.

Can Kuurth be used in a tournament? Is he under the acceptable high herald limits?

In this scan Superman knows who his opponent is. He has known this foes for decades, and yet....

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/3697104-8565731551-36512.jpg/img]

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/3697104-8565731551-36512.jpg

GRIP IS LIKE STEEL

Originally posted by Stoic
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/3697104-8565731551-36512.jp

Superman at a level where all his stats are less

Moreover, PIS. You either have super intelligence, or you don't - agree? One cannot 'hold back' your intelligence, the same way one can 'hold back' on speed, or strength.

So I guess the first question is - do YOU think that Superman is super-intelligent?

Like here:

https://i.imgur.com/00PufvH.jpg

That's the first q. If yes, then my next q would be: can you 'hold back' on your intelligence. If no, then my scan posted is obvious PIS.

Or here:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/71810/2987990-actioncomics_14_thegroup_032.jpg

Kuurth stomp just like he stomped every other highly intelligent person that jumped in front of him.

Originally posted by carver9
Kuurth stomp just like he stomped every other highly intelligent person that jumped in front of him.

The only one that did any planning, was Cyclops. It was all his plans that failed against Kuurth (Magneto etc were only following his orders).

Superman vs Cyclops in an intelligence battle, care to engage?

Originally posted by Stoic
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/3697104-8565731551-36512.jpg

Need to bump this gem before it gets lost.

GRIP... IS LIKE... STEEL!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Superman at a level where all his stats are less

Moreover, PIS. You either have super intelligence, or you don't - agree? One cannot 'hold back' your intelligence, the same way one can 'hold back' on speed, or strength.

So I guess the first question is - do YOU think that Superman is super-intelligent?

Like here:

https://i.imgur.com/00PufvH.jpg

That's the first q. If yes, then my next q would be: can you 'hold back' on your intelligence. If no, then my scan posted is obvious PIS.

He has still been hit. I don't care about how intelligent he is.

So, PIS.