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Superman
Thor
Surfer

Who wins? Feats like these
Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman was one of the four people who contributed in Damage absorbing enough energy to create a big bang.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_ZHpt005_pg018.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_ZHpt005_pg019.jpg

Spectre accelerated this process by pumping more energy into him and started the big bang

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_ZHpt005_pg021.jpg

Notable energy projection feats from Thor include:

-Amped Mjolnir throw surging with the energy of hundreds of suns
-The Anti-Force, which was capable of destroying a planet
-The Godblasts
-Contributing 1/4 of the energy needed to effect countless dimensions and realities
-Tearing through dimensions
-Generating a cosmic hurricane which consisted of the hurricanes of a thousand worlds while fighting Glory.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Notable energy projection feats from Thor include:

-Amped Mjolnir throw surging with the energy of hundreds of suns
-The Anti-Force, which was capable of destroying a planet
-The Godblasts
-Contributing 1/4 of the energy needed to effect countless dimensions and realities
-Tearing through dimensions
-Generating a cosmic hurricane which consisted of the hurricanes of a thousand worlds while fighting Glory.
Save for the feat from Thor corps, aren't most of these are just statements?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Save for the feat from Thor corps, aren't most of these are just statements?

No, the feats, given the context of them, (the amped Mjolnir throw actually being capable of harming Surtur w/Twilight and the cosmic hurricane causing Glory pain for the first time), there's no reason to assume they're hyperbolic statements or anything.

Surfer in general is the best, imo.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
No, the feats, given the context of them, (the amped Mjolnir throw actually being capable of harming Surtur w/Twilight and the cosmic hurricane causing Glory pain for the first time), there's no reason to assume they're hyperbolic statements or anything.
I thought that they were meant as a hyperbole as Thor happens to brag about his power a lot. Though the feat from Thor corps is not strictly an energy projection feat, otherwise superman singing out darkseid would've been applicable too.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Surfer in general is the best, imo.
Best feats, not in general.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I thought that they were meant as a hyperbole as Thor happens to brag about his power a lot. Though the feat from Thor corps is not strictly an energy projection feat, otherwise superman singing out darkseid would've been applicable too.

Thor does like to wax on about whatever, but those high end feats speak for themselves. Considering how grossly overpowered Surtur with Twilight was, and the fact that even he felt the need to block that attack, I have no reason to doubt that Mjolnir is capable of such power, especially considering Thor took his time generating it and the act actually was harming him in the process. The heat of a thousand suns is still underneath elite Skyfather power, imo, which is what Odin and Surtur were packing, both with galactic level feats under their belt. The cosmic hurricane is reinforced with the fact that Thor isn't limited to Earthly storm summoning and the winds of a thousand worlds being able to harm an entity such as Glory makes sense considering.

As far as the Thor Corps thing goes, I don't see how it's not strictly energy projection as they literally summon the mystic energy from within their hammers to bolster endless collapsing realities/dimensions. Unless you're disbarring it because of the sheer high end scale of it.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Thor does like to wax on about whatever, but those high end feats speak for themselves. Considering how grossly overpowered Surtur with Twilight was, and the fact that even he felt the need to block that attack, I have no reason to doubt that Mjolnir is capable of such power, especially considering Thor took his time generating it and the act actually was harming him in the process. The heat of a thousand suns is still underneath elite Skyfather power, imo, which is what Odin and Surtur were packing, both with galactic level feats under their belt. The cosmic hurricane is reinforced with the fact that Thor isn't limited to Earthly storm summoning and the winds of a thousand worlds being able to harm an entity such as Glory makes sense considering.

As far as the Thor Corps thing goes, I don't see how it's not strictly energy projection as they literally summon the mystic energy from within their hammers to bolster endless collapsing realities/dimensions. Unless you're disbarring it because of the sheer high end scale of it.
Nope, I just thought that it was a hyperbole because of thor bragging and narrative hyperboles which were abundant in that era. High scale? We're talking about big bangs and stuff. Though to think about it while thor needed help to do such a thing, kal once just rubbed his hands together and stopped time-space from collapsing or once just vibrated and saved the omniverse and Superman whistling darkseid away and powering miracle machine is still a better feat though. Poor surfer.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nope, I just thought that it was a hyperbole because of thor bragging and narrative hyperboles which were abundant in that era. High scale? We're talking about big bangs and stuff. Superman whistling darkseid away and powering miracle machine is still a better feat though. Poor surfer.

You can believe the "heat of a thousand suns" to be hyperbolic, but considering everything Thor, Odin, and Surtur had done in comics up to that point, there's no real reason to think it was. Superman's heat vision burns much hotter than the sun with no known upper limit, so Mjolnir being able to generate that much heat to be a threat to Surtur with Twilight doesn't strike me as impossible or even implausible considering how haxxed Mjolnir can be.

Yeah, I think generating enough energy to help prevent the multiverse from collapsing unto itself is high scale. Could just be me, though. Infinite realities were being threatened and 1/4 of the power needed to prevent infinite scale destruction is...well, you know.

Yeah, Norrin gets overlooked in this contest either way.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Best feats, not in general.

Well it's not Superman... ermm

Originally posted by -Pr-
Well it's not Superman... ermm

Yeah, it's the Odinson.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Well it's not Superman... ermm
Traitor.

Honestly surprised these feats haven't been condemned as PIS considering the drastic and absurd scale of difference between them and the norm of what these guys are capable of. Well beyond "herald" class in any case.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah, it's the Odinson.
He can dream. His best feat with help was done by superman rubbing his hands together.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He can dream. His best feat with help was done by superman rubbing his hands together.

What exactly did Superman do?

Because Thor on his own has sealed holes in space/time. He's opened them, hell.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
What exactly did Superman do?

Because Thor on his own has sealed holes in space/time. He's opened them, hell.
That fissure was causing entire time-space continuum to collapse just like in your example. That was why superman ended in The Next's world in the first place. Superman sealed it off saving infinite realities. He did it once before when a phantom planet was threatening to collapse entire omniverse. He vibrated the entire planet in another dimension.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That fissure was causing entire time-space continuum to collapse just like in your example. That was why superman ended in The Next's world in the first place. Superman sealed it off saving infinite realities. He did it once before when a phantom planet was threating to collapse entire omniverse. He vibrated the entire planet in another dimension.

And he did this via energy projection?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And he did this via energy projection?
He created static electricity by rubbing his hands together and sealed it off. Hell busiek made fun of it in one superman comic.

While probably not the most impressive, Hal's Krona-busting blast is worth mentioning, as he had control over every emotional entity/power at the time...

Genis-Vell casual firing a big bang.

Genis being herald-level is BS, tbh. He's at least trans, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
While probably not the most impressive, Hal's Krona-busting blast is worth mentioning, as he had control over every emotional entity/power at the time... Originally posted by "Id"
Genis-Vell casual firing a big bang.
No other characters please.

The Zero Hour Superman example is kind of stupid, IMO, unless you also want to paint Darkstar Donna Troy and the Ray in the same light.

I always saw that as mostly the work of the Spectre and Damage (Damage merely magnifying the power, not generating it).

Of these three, Thor easily has the best energy projection feats, IMO.

Originally posted by Cogito
The Zero Hour Superman example is kind of stupid, IMO, unless you also want to paint Darkstar Donna Troy and the Ray in the same light.

I always saw that as mostly the work of the Spectre and Damage (Damage merely magnifying the power, not generating it).

Of these three, Thor easily has the best energy projection feats, IMO.
Both Darkstar and Ray were amped by the energy of parallax's energy universe IIRC.

Yup, they were amped. Even then superman was shown as their peer in energy projection. Insane

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_zerohour0018.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_zerohour0019.jpg

Might as well mention some Surfer feats:

- Combining his power with Thor and co. to get the attention of Galactus, Scrier, and Other in their fight
- Nearly kills Thor with a warning blast
- Using crunch power against Aegis and Tenebrous
- Destroying Mistress Death's avatar

Originally posted by abhilegend
No other characters please. you want everyone to pick superman, right?

Black Adam............

Originally posted by psycho gundam
you want everyone to pick superman, right?

Lol classic fanboy. He made this thread wanting everyone to pick superman.

Thor wins

.....Pot, black, people in glass houses etc.

Take your pick.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Surfer in general is the best, imo.

Yup, energy feats are the Surfer's thing.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Notable energy projection feats from Thor include:

-Amped Mjolnir throw surging with the energy of hundreds of suns
-The Anti-Force, which was capable of destroying a planet
-The Godblasts
-Contributing 1/4 of the energy needed to effect countless dimensions and realities


Can you post those feats here, please ?

Thor wins here ... It shouldnt even be a discussion.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Can you post those feats here, please ?

I can give you issue numbers.

The "Thousand Sun amped Mjolnir throw" comes from Thor volume #1, issue #351. The attack was deflected by Surtur with Twilight, however.

The Anti-Force capable of destroying the planet comes from Thor volume #2, issue #22 (or #524 classic numbering if you prefer).

The 1/4 of the energy poured forth to effect countless realities and dimensions happened in issue #4 of the Thor Corps mini.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Might as well mention some Surfer feats:

- Combining his power with Thor and co. to get the attention of Galactus, Scrier, and Other in their fight
- Nearly kills Thor with a warning blast
- Using crunch power against Aegis and Tenebrous
- Destroying Mistress Death's avatar

Nice. Surfer wins this category.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Thor wins here ... It shouldnt even be a discussion. Originally posted by Tar-Antado
Nice. Surfer wins this category.

Did you two somehow forgot to read the OP?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman was one of the four people who contributed in Damage absorbing enough energy to create a big bang.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_ZHpt005_pg018.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_ZHpt005_pg019.jpg

Spectre accelerated this process by pumping more energy into him and started the big bang

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_ZHpt005_pg021.jpg

Its not the general level of energy projection. Its the best feats ever contest. Nothing surfer did there is even remotely compared to what superman or Thor have done.

superman is at best 1/5 of that feat (but he can very well be less than 25% of the first 4 people powering the guy up, and those 4 could be far less than spectre provided), something mjolnir did when it absorbed and released a blast that could have destroyed 1/5 of the universe

Originally posted by psycho gundam
you want everyone to pick superman, right? LMAO. This post deserves a gold medal. This contest is between thor and surfer. Superman has no chance in hell of ever coming close to matching thor or surfer in energy output, and should not even be in this type of thread.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
superman is at best 1/5 of that feat (but he can very well be less than 25% of the first 4 people powering the guy up, and those 4 could be far less than spectre provided), something mjolnir did when it absorbed and released a blast that could have destroyed 1/5 of the universe
He was shown as the peer to all of them and unless its specified, they provided equal power. Spectre only pumped more power to create an uncontrolled big bang as opposite to the controlled big bang that waverider wanted. Thor never released that energy he absorbed in mjolnir and big bang=\=universal destruction. Etrigan and orion have provided enough energy to collapse a reality too.

Originally posted by country1000
LMAO. This post deserves a gold medal. This contest is between thor and surfer. Superman has no chance in hell of ever coming close to matching thor or surfer in energy output.
Match the feats, then.

how is it equal unless specified not to be? what are the odds of all 4 having the same power output? did they chat about this?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
how is it equal unless specified not to be? what are the odds of all 4 having the same power output? did they chat about this?
How is it not equal? I don't have to prove something that was clearly shown on-panel as all four of them contributing equally. This is how its shown when someone in a group setting is contributing less than others

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Willpower/ActionComics589a.jpg

You don't get to assign random percentages in a group setting.

you're trying to attribute 1/4 of that happening to superman, regardless of the ambiguity of the power levels involved. it's not so much throwing in random numbers but rather acknowledging that there are established differences between those characters, shit, you should be throwing your panties at captain atom given his other power displays, right?

let's just forget spectre was there, too
Originally posted by abhilegend
. This is how its shown when someone in a group setting is contributing less than others

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Willpower/ActionComics589a.jpg
. that's just a straw breaking the camel's back, just with willpower

Originally posted by psycho gundam
you're trying to attribute 1/4 of that happening to superman, regardless of the ambiguity of the power levels involved. it's not so much throwing in random numbers but rather acknowledging that there are established differences between those characters, shit, you should be throwing your panties at captain atom given his other power displays, right?

let's just forget spectre was there, too
that's just a straw breaking the camel's back, just with willpower
So, basically nothing but speculation that he was somehow less involved. Waverider was confident that it would be suffice to start the big bang and parallax was too. Spectre just pumped more energy and made it an uncontrollable big bang rather than the controlled big bang waverider wanted. Yeah, superman is established as more powerful than captain atom outside quantum field. Heck cap himself admitted that in his series.

Superman is more 'powerful' in a fight, but Atom's much more energy focused and has an endless source.

Originally posted by Cogito
The Zero Hour Superman example is kind of stupid, IMO, unless you also want to paint Darkstar Donna Troy and the Ray in the same light.

I always saw that as mostly the work of the Spectre and Damage (Damage merely magnifying the power, not generating it).


Yea, of the energy people, I saw it as Damage, Ray, and Captain Atom providing the most.

Originally posted by Q99
Superman is more 'powerful' in a fight, but Atom's much more energy focused and has an endless source.




Yea, of the energy people, I saw it as Damage, Ray, and Captain Atom providing the most.
Damage did nothing and the rest is just speculation. Cap doesn't have an unlimited power source outside quantum field and has been overloaded many times before.

Can someone explain the scan to me? Just looks like Damage was overloaded and exploded. Don't really see how this proves his power levels as it looks like it was the chain reaction to the overload that triggered the big bang and not superman. Just looks like a lot of straw grasping to me, IMO....

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Can someone explain the scan to me? Just looks like Damage was overloaded and exploded. Don't really see how this proves his power levels as it looks like it was the chain reaction to the overload that triggered the big bang and not superman. Just looks like a lot of straw grasping to me, IMO....
Superman, captain atom, The ray and Darkstar combined their energies through waverider to create a new big bang which could be controlled by waverider to eliminate parallax before he did any damage to reality. But waverider lost his physical form after channeling such amount of energy and then spectre pum[ped more energy and made the big bang uncontrolled.

Going with Thor

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I can give you issue numbers.

The "Thousand Sun amped Mjolnir throw" comes from Thor volume #1, issue #351. The attack was deflected by Surtur with Twilight, however.

The Anti-Force capable of destroying the planet comes from Thor volume #2, issue #22 (or #524 classic numbering if you prefer).

The 1/4 of the energy poured forth to effect countless realities and dimensions happened in issue #4 of the Thor Corps mini.

Ty !!!

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman, captain atom, The ray and Darkstar combined their energies through waverider to create a new big bang which could be controlled by waverider to eliminate parallax before he did any damage to reality. But waverider lost his physical form after channeling such amount of energy and then spectre pum

Like I said, seems like the feat is being made out to be more than it is, IMO. Too many variables in the equation to make this as a definitive and measurable kind of "feat".

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Like I said, seems like the feat is being made out to be more than it is, IMO. Too many variables in the equation to make this as a definitive and measurable kind of "feat".
Why is that? What's so difficult to understand about it and what are those so many variables?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why is that? What's so difficult to understand about it and what are those so many variables?

Multiple beings of variable energy proj power levels combining their energy proj attacks within an unspecified time to create a chain reaction within another being (who is storing said energy proj attacks) to create an event w/c is unto itself another kind of chain reaction (w/c by the looks of it is resultant more of a whole creating far more than the individual parts scenario) w/c is then forcibly enhanced by another being, creating said result.

If there ever was anything that could be chalked up as ambiguous, plot device ridden or unquantifiable, this would be it, IMO.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Multiple beings of variable energy proj power levels combining their energy proj attacks within an unspecified time to create a chain reaction within another being (who is storing said energy proj attacks) to create an event w/c is unto itself another kind of chain reaction (w/c by the looks of it is resultant more of a whole creating far more than the individual parts scenario) w/c is then forcibly enhanced by another being, creating said result.

If there ever was anything that could be chalked up as ambiguous, plot device ridden or unquantifiable, this would be it, IMO.
It wasn't a chain reaction. AT ALL. Waverider funneled the combined energis of superman captain atom, darkstar and the ray into damage intended to create a big bang and parallax confirmed it that it would indeed be able to re-create creation. Seems like untill you force the images in the thread, no one is going to read them properly
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/ZHpt005_pg018.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/ZHpt005_pg019.jpg

Spectre just made it an uncontrolled blast by pumping more energy into damage.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/ZHpt005_pg021.jpg

Where did you find any notion that it was due to a chain reaction when there is no indication or even mention of it and damage doesn't have the power to magnify energy anyway. You are nitpicking too much where there is no reason to do so. Sorry for the page break, guys.

There is no way to quantify Superman's involvement in that feat. There are too many variables. Superman, Donna, Atom, Ray, Waverider, Damage, the Spectre.

And Damage did amplify the blast, or else he wouldn't have been needed.

The art and writing made it look like a chain reaction to me (tho I'm not sure chain reaction is the best term to use, a reaction w/c created a result w/c is far more than its individual parts would be the best way to describe it, I guess - heck, the Big Bang itself is a chain reaction) as the character seems to have just needed energy, combined with his unique abilities/physiology, to perform a specific task w/c he normally would be unable to perform. I guess we both see it differently, but that's definitely what i'm getting from the writing.

Originally posted by Cogito
There is no way to quantify Superman's involvement in that feat. There are too many variables. Superman, Donna, Atom, Ray, Waverider, Damage, the Spectre.

And Damage did amplify the blast, or else he wouldn't have been needed.
Damage was needed because of his ability to store energy and convert it into a controlled blast which neither of other people involved could do. It was specifically stated by waverider that "when you reach the proper power levels" by the funneled energy release the blast in a controlled manner. Anyway even if superman just contributed a fraction of power even 10 % which is highly unlikely given that he was treated as equal among the energy projectors, its better than almost any other herald being's energy projection feat.

I like the way ABHILEGEND methodsss..

This way Surfer beats that Superman feat by a mile..

http://imageshack.us/f/818/ssv312111b.jpg/

Here's another one from the same arc.

http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/?action=view&current=SS_v3_121_14a.jpg&mediafilter=noflash



Originally posted by abhilegend
Damage was needed because of his ability to store energy and convert it into a controlled blast which neither of other people involved could do. It was specifically stated by waverider that "when you reach the proper power levels" by the funneled energy release the blast in a controlled manner. Anyway even if superman just contributed a fraction of power even 10 % which is highly unlikely given that he was treated as equal among the energy projectors, its better than almost any other herald being's energy projection feat.

Ahem! Ray, GL, Capt. Atom etc..

Originally posted by Ambient
I like the way ABHILEGEND methodsss..

This way Surfer beats that Superman feat by a mile..

http://imageshack.us/f/818/ssv312111b.jpg/

Here's another one from the same arc.

http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/?action=view&current=SS_v3_121_14a.jpg&mediafilter=noflash





Ahem! Ray, GL, Capt. Atom etc..
Surfer was upgraded for that and its non-canon for him anyway. Like I said big bang=\=universal destruction. Its the end and start of everything in creation. Lastly its energy projection feats, not energy absorption.

Oh and all Ray, darkstar and cap were amped by absorbing the energies of parallax's energy universe.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yup, they were amped. Even then superman was shown as their peer in energy projection. Insane

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_zerohour0018.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_zerohour0019.jpg

whistling

Abhi, you created a thread with 3 options and frankly you're trolling everyone who doesn't choose Superman based on a single feat that's sketchy at best.

There can be opinions, there isn't a definitive answer for everything, and Superman doesn't have to be the best at everything.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Surfer was upgraded for that and its non-canon for him anyway. Like I said big bang=\=universal destruction. Its the end and start of everything in creation. Lastly its energy projection feats, not energy absorption.

Oh and all Ray, darkstar and cap were amped by absorbing the energies of parallax's energy universe.



whistling
Dude it's canon.. As in 616 Surfer and that surfer are one and the same, its explained in The Starmaster series..

He was amp via absorption but had his own energy reserved mixed into it, how much????? But it's kinda similar to what ur emplying on that Superman feat. U think?

Which makes capt. Atom, Darkstar, Ray amp therefore have much more energy to spare than say Superman - parrallax energies..

Originally posted by Cogito
Abhi, you created a thread with 3 options and frankly you're trolling everyone who doesn't choose Superman based on a single feat that's sketchy at best.

There can be opinions, there isn't a definitive answer for everything, and Superman doesn't have to be the best at everything.
Not at all. I was just asking for the opinion of everyone. I can understand that everyone has their opinions but I wouldn't see feats getting lowballed for any character.Originally posted by Ambient
Dude it's canon.. As in 616 Surfer and that surfer are one and the same, its explained in The Starmaster series..

He was amp via absorption but had his own energy reserved mixed into it, how much????? But it's kinda similar to what ur emplying on that Superman feat. U think?

Which makes capt. Atom, Darkstar, Ray amp therefore have much more energy to spare than say Superman - parrallax energies..

No, it isn't. The explanation you provided in silver surfer respect thread is ambiguous at best and an excuse at worst. There was another reality created by surfer's actions and even IF that surfer was merged with 616 surfer which was not confirmed btw was surfer doesn't makes the feats of that surfer to 616 surfer when he released the blackbodies

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/th_ssgod1xj5.jpg

If they contributed more energy than superman, it wasn't mentioned or even alluded anywhere. Waverider wouldn't have said that "Fire your accumulative energies". If his contribution was insignificant then it wouldn't have been shown at all. What was shown is totally different, superman was treated as an equal in the energy projection.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Well it's not Superman... ermm

Out of the 3 listed, Thor wins.

comics need to step away from using a big bang as a plot device (especially DC), it's cheaper than death. they didn't even account for the matter that comprises the universe.

Oh! One more thing I know it's energy projection feat but if u read the scan it's rightly stated by the watcher that if so release the energy blast can and will destroy that universe, also the next scan shows him projecting that energy into the rift which was stated to have an amount = that of all the galaxy in that universe..

Supes did not create the universe but merely supplied an unquantifiable amount of energy together with supposedly beings who had absorb the exotic energies of parrallax + spectre assistance. There is also something more in damage, this is why he was chosen by wave rider to restart the big bang, not the like of atom or ray who is far more exp. therefore much more skilled in energy manipulation. That bigbang universal creation feat was more to do with damage than Supes who had quite little to do with it while. I don't really understand why ur making what little did super fan do on that feat put him >> of thors and Surfer energy projection..

Originally posted by Ambient
Oh! One more thing I know it's energy projection feat but if u read the scan it's rightly stated by the watcher that if so release the energy blast can and will destroy that universe, also the next scan shows him projecting that energy into the rift which was stated to have an amount = that of all the galaxy in that universe..

Supes did not create the universe but merely supplied an unquantifiable amount of energy together with supposedly beings who had absorb the exotic energies of parrallax + spectre assistance. There is also something more in damage, this is why he was chosen by wave rider to restart the big bang, not the like of atom or ray who is far more exp. therefore much more skilled in energy manipulation. That bigbang universal creation feat was more to do with damage than Supes who had quite little to do with it while. I don't really understand why ur making what little did super fan do on that feat put him >> of thors and Surfer energy projection..
So just speculation, huh. "Superman didn't do anything, damage must've power cosmic or something else and that's why he was chosen, blah, blah, blah". What else you got to lowball the feat? Superman was there to just stand and shoot lasers? Superman was photoshopped there? Waverider asked superman because he is the flagship hero? Don't stop, list the reasons why this isn't impressive. Go ahead. Oh and that big bang created a multiverse as hyperime revealed later.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it isn't. The explanation you provided in silver surfer respect thread is ambiguous at best and an excuse at worst. There was another reality created by surfer's actions and even IF that surfer was merged with 616 surfer which was not confirmed btw was surfer doesn't makes the feats of that surfer to 616 surfer when he released the blackbodies

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/th_ssgod1xj5.jpg

If they contributed more energy than superman, it wasn't mentioned or even alluded anywhere. Waverider wouldn't have said that "Fire your accumulative energies". If his contribution was insignificant then it wouldn't have been shown at all. What was shown is totally different, superman was treated as an equal in the energy projection.
Lol at u using the word Ambiguous.. It's clear what happened in star master that surfer camelback to 616 reality via rift and u see him going in back into 616 Surfer, it just can't get any clearer than that.. And what the heck do u mean by him releasing the blackbodies? I suggest u actually pick up the comics and not just go a portion of a scan I posted in the respect thread then basing ur own opinion to it without getting the full story.. It reeks of FAIL..

They absorb Parralllax energies u know the energies that can shape and remake reality +++ they're own energy on top which likely suggest more than mere solar energy. Superman was treated equal because he is ultimately the greatest most respectable hero in that assembly and of course obviously the energy he contribute is not insignificant..

Originally posted by abhilegend
So just speculation, huh. "Superman didn't do anything, damage must've power cosmic or something else and that's why he was chosen, blah, blah, blah". What else you got to lowball the feat? Superman was there to just stand and shoot lasers? Superman was photoshopped there? Waverider asked superman because he is the flagship hero? Don't stop, list the reasons why this isn't impressive. Go ahead. Oh and that big bang created a multiverse as hyperime revealed later.
Look there was no low balling on my part it's just ur take on that feat is I think way above as is supposedly put out.. this is the problem on ambiguous feat it's subjective to a lot of speculation.. This is why I choose to compare it with that surfer unilord absorption feat. Quite similar in terms of ambiguity, so why is urs acceptable but mine is not on you.. Vice versa.. Lol see my point..

Grudgingly, at least the Superman scene was less hyperbolic than the Thor feats.

Surfer hands down. Why, he can do energy projection and energy absorption at the same time in different manners.

Originally posted by Ambient
Lol at u using the word Ambiguous.. It's clear what happened in star master that surfer camelback to 616 reality via rift and u see him going in back into 616 Surfer, it just can't get any clearer than that.. And what the heck do u mean by him releasing the blackbodies? I suggest u actually pick up the comics and not just go a portion of a scan I posted in the respect thread then basing ur own opinion to it without getting the full story.. It reeks of FAIL..

They absorb Parralllax energies u know the energies that can shape and remake reality +++ they're own energy on top which likely suggest more than mere solar energy. Superman was treated equal because he is ultimately the greatest most respectable hero in that assembly and of course obviously the energy he contribute is not insignificant..
I've read the series, no thank you. In fact there is no mention of merger in starmasters, the scan you refer is from silver surfer 121 and 122. What is given that the alternate surfer was seen at the last page of SS 120 as how his new universe would flourish. He also released the blackbodies. So you agree that his contribution was indeed significant, what is the problem then?Originally posted by Ambient
Look there was no low balling on my part it's just ur take on that feat is I think way above as is supposedly put out.. this is the problem on ambiguous feat it's subjective to a lot of speculation.. This is why I choose to compare it with that surfer unilord absorption feat. Quite similar in terms of ambiguity, so why is urs acceptable but mine is not on you.. Vice versa.. Lol see my point..
I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone, however my opinion is as valid as anyone's and more based on facts than speculations. You think that superman wasn't treated as equal and contributed less than others, that's fine. But don't tell me that his contribution was totally insignificant as some people are suggesting.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I've read the series, no thank you. In fact there is no mention of merger in starmasters, the scan you refer is from silver surfer 121 and 122. What is given that the alternate surfer was seen at the last page of SS 120 as how his new universe would flourish. He also released the blackbodies. So you agree that his contribution was indeed significant, what is the problem then?
I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone, however my opinion is as valid as anyone's and more based on facts than speculations. You think that superman wasn't treated as equal and contributed less than others, that's fine. But don't tell me that his contribution was totally insignificant as some people are suggesting. Your opinion is based on the fact that you want superman to win this and nearly every thread hes in. You create this thread about 3 characters, yet you highlight only one (superman). You post scans of only supermans sketchy feats then try and make them more that what they really are. When people pick surfer or thor over superman, you start ranting as you often do. Your love for superman has your credibility at a all time low dude.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone, however my opinion is as valid as anyone's and more based on facts than speculations.

Well, I agree that your opinion is as valid as ours. But stating that "it is based on facts than speculation". Kinda means that you're inferring that your opinion is more valid than ours, isn't it?

Originally posted by country1000
Your opinion is based on the fact that you want superman to win this and nearly every thread hes in. You create this thread about 3 characters, yet you highlight only one (superman). You post scans of only supermans sketchy feats then try and make them more that what they really are. When people pick surfer or thor over superman, you start ranting as you often do. Your love for superman has your credibility at a all time low dude.
Pot, cattle. My credibility is just fine. Why don't you go in a gladiator thread and rant there?Originally posted by Nibedicus
Well, I agree that your opinion is as valid as ours. But stating that "it is based on facts than speculation". Kinda means that you're inferring that your opinion is more valid than ours, isn't it?
Well, I'm not the one who is speculating about chain reactions, damage's imaginary energy magnification powers or assigning random percentages to characters who were treated as equals in the scenario, am I?

*kettle

Originally posted by -Pr-
*kettle
Typo.srug

Originally posted by Nibedicus
just looks like Damage was overloaded and exploded. Don't really see how this proves his power levels as it looks like it was the chain reaction to the overload that triggered the big bang and not superman. Just looks like a lot of straw grasping to me, IMO....

This.

Originally posted by carver9
This.

Abhi, I'm starting to think that you are to Superman what Carver is to Hulk...

just now starting to....?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Abhi, I'm starting to think that you are to Superman what Carver is to Hulk...

When have you seen me go in threads saying Hulk would sing people out of existence or vibrate people out of existence.? I'm far away from being abhi.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
just now starting to....?

I know, I was a little behind. Damn real life commitments.

Originally posted by carver9
When have you seen me go in threads saying Hulk would sing people out of existence or vibrate people out of existence.? I'm far away from being abhi.

lol, that post is a prime example.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Abhi, I'm starting to think that you are to Superman what Carver is to Hulk...
You wound me pr. I thought I was quan of superman.

Originally posted by carver9
When have you seen me go in threads saying Hulk would sing people out of existence or vibrate people out of existence.? I'm far away from being abhi.
Planets. Vaporised. By. Hand. Waving.Originally posted by psycho gundam
just now starting to....?
Look who's talking here.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You wound me pr. I thought I was quan of superman.

Either or.

abhi's Supes vs. Quan's Thanos would be absolutely hilarious.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Either or.
Huh?

Originally posted by Harbinger
abhi's Supes vs. Quan's Thanos would be absolutely hilarious.
No, thanos would win.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Huh?

You can be whatever you want to be.

Originally posted by Harbinger
abhi's Supes vs. Quan's Thanos would be absolutely hilarious.

Yeah it would.
Quan would win with the Thanos unkillable stance. Clark can't sneeze/display better combat speed/vibrate/or blitz past that.

Originally posted by -Pr-
You can be whatever you want to be.
Ok.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Look who's talking here. yes, look. superman has been rebooted to iron fist level

you're stuck in the past

Originally posted by psycho gundam
yes, look. superman has been rebooted to iron fist level

you're stuck in the past
Hulk is reduced to kingpin level in his book.

haha, even with jabba aaron's lame writing, hulk is never kingpin level. you mad

Originally posted by psycho gundam
haha, even with jabba aaron's lame writing, hulk is never kingpin level. you mad
So is superman not on Iron fist level unless danny can jump in space now. Just wait for a few years, he would be stronger than hulk again.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Well, I'm not the one who is speculating about chain reactions, damage's imaginary energy magnification powers or assigning random percentages to characters who were treated as equals in the scenario, am I?

The Big Bang was a chain reaction itself, so my part about chain reactions is kinda accurate. Didn't mention energy magnification, IIRC. Assigning random percentages is what you did, not me. :-p

My point is (and has always beeen) that the "feat" is a bad means of measuring his energy magnification powers as it is ambigious, unquantfiable and full of external variables. Nothing more, nothing less.

While you may claim I am speculating, I can do the same to you and both our claims are just as valid.

Just saying...

Originally posted by abhilegend
Just wait for a few years, he would be stronger than hulk again. they will try

I hope they don't beef up their heroes anymore. Current powerlevels are just about right, IMO. DC was waaay too powerful before and they need to calm things down.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
they will try Yeah and they would suceed.Originally posted by Nibedicus
The Big Bang was a chain reaction itself, so my part about chain reactions is kinda accurate. Didn't mention energy magnification, IIRC. Assigning random percentages is what you did, not me. :-p

My point is (and has always beeen) that the "feat" is a bad means of measuring his energy magnification powers as it is ambigious, unquantfiable and full of external variables. Nothing more, nothing less.

While you may claim I am speculating, I can do the same to you and both our claims are just as valid.

Just saying...
No, it wasn't. It was released at once and their was no magnification involved. Like I said you are just speculating. Except my stance was based upon facts and how they were treated in EP.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah and they would suceed.
No, it wasn't. It was released at once and their was no magnification involved. Like I said you are just speculating. Except my stance was based upon facts and how they were treated in EP.

Everyone disagree with your stance on the ft. Move on.

Man, I missed some hilarious posts and banter.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it wasn't. It was released at once and their was no magnification involved. Like I said you are just speculating. Except my stance was based upon facts and how they were treated in EP.

In your opinion... :-)

Originally posted by abhilegend
What is given that the alternate surfer was seen at the last page of SS 120 as how his new universe would flourish.

Yes and its narrated as how that universe would remained unknown for now and then were taken to the remaining page..

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/th_SS_v3_121_17a.jpg

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/th_SS_v3_121_17b.jpg

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/th_SS_v3_122_03a.jpg

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/th_SS_v3_122_03b.jpg

Now (take note), the ball of silver energy like a comet coming from the rift and zeroed in towards 616 Surfer.. It was even describe by Bill to be slow enough to dodge but somehow 616 Surfer just stayed still in a trance waiting for it to hit. What do you think was that Silvery comet??? or who???

Here's a scan of Surfer in the rift going back towards 616 Universe, just a hint.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/th_SS_v3_121_14a.jpg

Now i know there was no mention of merging but that should be self explanatory. Now if you even fallowed SS series after this arc, his exhibited powers and feat similar to that arc feat. Ie; merging, outrageous molecular self reconstruction, increase energy absorption capacity, etc..

Im taking it as that silver comet striking at surfer went inside him as there was a definite persona reaction, you can take it as what you will but thats my stance..
Originally posted by abhilegend
He also released the blackbodies. So you agree that his contribution was indeed significant, what is the problem then?.
He never controlled any blackbodies, so i dont know what your talking there..

Yes there is a significance in Supes contribution there but your taking that contribution to a whole lot higher level, a degree that equals to the character involved amp via parallax energy and might i mention spectres involvement as well. The methodss u used for that equation is way out of WHACK..
Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone, however my opinion is as valid as anyone's and more based on facts than speculations. You think that superman wasn't treated as equal and contributed less than others, that's fine. But don't tell me that his contribution was totally insignificant as some people are suggesting.
More of speculation than facts actually, my thoughts..
The equal treatment in my opinion is purely based on Supes persona reputation but equal energy contribution to the bigbang feat, not a chance.. like i and u mention before the SPB's where amp via Parrallax energy with they're own, that alone should tell u thats more energy than mere solar. then there was Spectres biblical energy involvement, thats not = solar.. I dont know where ur getting equal energy contribution idea..

Originally posted by carver9
Everyone disagree with your stance on the ft. Move on.
Coming from you its hilarious.Originally posted by Ambient
Yes and its narrated as how that universe would remained unknown for now and then were taken to the remaining page..

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/th_SS_v3_121_17a.jpg

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/th_SS_v3_121_17b.jpg

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/th_SS_v3_122_03a.jpg

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/th_SS_v3_122_03b.jpg

Now (take note), the ball of silver energy like a comet coming from the rift and zeroed in towards 616 Surfer.. It was even describe by Bill to be slow enough to dodge but somehow 616 Surfer just stayed still in a trance waiting for it to hit. What do you think was that Silvery comet??? or who???

Here's a scan of Surfer in the rift going back towards 616 Universe, just a hint.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/th_SS_v3_121_14a.jpg

Now i know there was no mention of merging but that should be self explanatory. Now if you even fallowed SS series after this arc, his exhibited powers and feat similar to that arc feat. Ie; merging, outrageous molecular self reconstruction, increase energy absorption capacity, etc..

Im taking it as that silver comet striking at surfer went inside him as there was a definite persona reaction, you can take it as what you will but thats my stance..

He never controlled any blackbodies, so i dont know what your talking there..

Yes there is a significance in Supes contribution there but your taking that contribution to a whole lot higher level, a degree that equals to the character involved amp via parallax energy and might i mention spectres involvement as well. The methodss u used for that equation is way out of WHACK..

More of speculation than facts actually, my thoughts..
The equal treatment in my opinion is purely based on Supes persona reputation but equal energy contribution to the bigbang feat, not a chance.. like i and u mention before the SPB's where amp via Parrallax energy with they're own, that alone should tell u thats more energy than mere solar. then there was Spectres biblical energy involvement, thats not = solar.. I dont know where ur getting equal energy contribution idea..
Your scans doesn't show that there was a merging, so like you are doing here with speculations I'm not going to buy that explanation since that alternate surfer was seen at the end of the comic in the unilord universe and not in 616 universe. It may be possible that his actions created another surfer who was able to cross unilord universe and merged with 616 surfer but that wasn't the unilord surfer. Nope, I followed his series to the end and I didn't notice any difference to surfer.

Yeah, people are using blackbody upgrade for a long time. Considering everything he did in unilord saga was after his upgrade with blackbodies, it becomes useless once it was shown that he no longer had blackbodies.

Yeah, more speculation. Like I said that all four of them were shown as the equals in energy projection after waverider asked them to fire their accumulative energies. In a comic if a group setting, if characters are shown as accumulating their powers, its equal among them unless specified. Considering both waverider and parallax confirmed that damage reached critical mass to create the big bang before spectre got involved, its safe to say that spectre didn't do much other than accelarate the process.

If we go by just solar energy rout than superman shouldn't even be there providing energy in the first place since it would've been less than insignificant. They also didn't absorb any significant portion of parallax's energy universe because it was the universe they were in. Like I said that even if he only contributed 10% of the power which would be rather unlikely, it would be better than anything other two have done in EP.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Your scans doesn't show that there was a merging, so like you are doing here with speculations I'm not going to buy that explanation since that alternate surfer was seen at the end of the comic in the unilord universe and not in 616 universe. It may be possible that his actions created another surfer who was able to cross unilord universe and merged with 616 surfer but that wasn't the unilord surfer. Nope, I followed his series to the end and I didn't notice any difference to surfer.
Fair enough.. I guess for slow people u need exact detailed word to a pretty much detailed depiction of an art..

So u didn't notice any similarity feat on the Madrukk arc???? Funny cause both the Madrukk and Unilord feat can be pretty much exchangeable.. Lets see; merging - yes, surviving being in pieces - yes, massive energy projectile - yes etc. etc..

Im seriously thinking you havent read this arc.. he made no upgrade with the Unilords blackbodies what he did do when he was merge with the Watcher blackbody guard was copied its body's configuration, this is what the upgrade was.. blackbodies was never the source of his power..

lol.. What? How can individuals have equal cap in energy projection when they're made and powered diff. by diff. source + some had outside amp via absorption of Parrallax energies? Cant you see a connection in there?

Accelerate the chain reaction proccess I gotcha.. lol

http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/9/92/Big_Bang_Zero_Hour_01.jpg

Thats Spectre pumping more energies to Damage..


I was differentiating about the energy source applied, some are more potent/abundant than others. for example Capt. Atom have near unlimited source of quantum energies as well as Darkstar and Spectre..

So now you figure they really didnt absorb any significant amount of parrallax energies to fuel them??? You make a good story teller, you just make as you go..

Originally posted by Ambient
Fair enough.. I guess for slow people u need exact detailed word to a pretty much detailed depiction of an art..

Right, that's why you need to be explained in detail a single feat. Pardon me if I'm not so fluent in one of the most convoluted arcs in comics history. Its not your fault though, I've seen many surfer fans and almost all of them are just like you.



You are talking about silver surfer v4 which I might say was quite different than silver surfer v3 where unilord saga happened. They are almost a decade apart and I'm surprised that you would find an arc where surfer with all his power failed to stop something which wasn't even real from destroying earth.



Doesn't matter anyway. It was not 616 surfer and it wasn't him who merged with unilord surfer. End of story, I don't want to read that awful story again just to prove you wrong. Its not worth the effort.



When a group of characters do something in a comic with roughly same power level, its assumed that they contributed evenly. Simple as that. Apparently the writer thought that all three of them absorbing parallax's energies made them on superman's level otherwise there is no reason for superman to contribute his energies there. You want to say that he was there because he is superman, go ahead but that doesn't make it true.




To think that you call me slow, parallax was convinced that the power damage had was enough to create the big bang

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_ZHpt005_pg019.jpg

If only you could read the scans! Oh and there is no chain reaction there, waverider just funneled the accumulative energies into damage.




Cap doesn't have unlimited power source outside quantum field and neither does darkstar. Spectre only came into play when damage had already reached critical mass. Nice try though.



They were absorbing the energies that made the universe they were standing in. They obviously hadn't absorbed enough when it was still pretty much intact. You can try to be able to read though, it is quite simple.

this is such an illogical stance in a thread

Silver Surfer returning Metropolis to normal while Superman stood there and couldn't

Originally posted by psycho gundam
this is such an illogical stance in a thread
Sorry chief, hulk isn't in this thread. Write to pak, maybe he can write hulk into farting a big bang. Though its amusing to see marvel internet warriors squirm.Originally posted by golem370
Silver Surfer returning Metropolis to normal while Superman stood there and couldn't
Crossover aren't canon and superman doesn't have matter manipulation powers.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Sorry chief, hulk isn't in this thread. Write to pak, maybe he can write hulk into farting a big bang. Though its amusing to see marvel internet warriors squirm.
really? you're just getting petty now

Originally posted by golem370
Silver Surfer returning Metropolis to normal while Superman stood there and couldn't


Superman was amazed at Surfers power.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
really? you're just getting petty now
Not at all. Though I find it amusing that you tried to dismiss the feat first and now my stance is simply illogical. I'm just enjoying the spectacle in this thread.

The ft is speculation at best.

Originally posted by carver9
Superman was amazed at Surfers power.
He is just a nice guy, complementing puny marvel characters like hulk, thor and silver surfer. Cyborg superman laughed at surfer's attacks in a previous crossover.

dismissing your illogical stance on the feat

Originally posted by abhilegend
He is just a nice guy, complementing puny marvel characters like hulk, thor and silver surfer. Cyborg superman laughed at surfer's attacks in a previous crossover.

A holding back Surfer. The compliments Superman gave was genuine.

Originally posted by carver9
The ft is speculation at best.
This isn't thor bragging about his unlimited power, we saw the big bang actually happen as both waverider and parallax confirmed it before.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
dismissing your illogical stance on the feat
Who cares?

you apparently do

anyway, spectre wins the thread

Originally posted by carver9
A holding back Surfer. The compliments Superman gave was genuine.
Surfer was not holding back as evidenced by his patented "Mine is the power cosmic". Like I said he is a nice guy giving compliments so that marvel characters don't feel inferior.

That crossover is non-canon anyway, so does it really matter?

(Some Mxy fans though say every Mxy appearance is canon somehow)

Originally posted by psycho gundam
you apparently do

anyway, spectre wins the thread
Now you're just desperate. Its ok though, you can hate superman even more.

lol, so defensive

(another inexplicable hulk retort is coming)

Originally posted by Endless Mike
That crossover is non-canon anyway, so does it really matter?

(Some Mxy fans though say every Mxy appearance is canon somehow)
Yeah, that is non canon. Though GL/Silver surfer seems to be canon. Parallax put hank in source wall after hank traveled to MU after his banishment in Trial of superman in that crossover which was shown in Genesis.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
lol, so defensive

(another inexplicable hulk retort is coming) Originally posted by abhilegend
Now you're just desperate. Its ok though, you can hate superman even more.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Surfer was not holding back as evidenced by his patented "Mine is the power cosmic". Like I said he is a nice guy giving compliments so that marvel characters don't feel inferior.


Surfer wasn't blasting with his best.

Those compliments was meant to be said because they were true. He is a nice guy but that doesn't take away from what was said.

it has nothing to do with superman, you could swap him out for cyclops and the big bang would still have occurred with the other factors in that process

Originally posted by carver9
Surfer wasn't blasting with his best.

Those compliments was meant to be said because they were true. He is a nice guy but that doesn't take away from what was said.


Why would be that? Because you said so? Surfer was explicitly not holding back, he doesn't always destroy planets not holding back in fact he was nearly killed destroying a moon while heavily amped and releasing all of his power. Like I said he is a nice guy, superman was once amazed at The Atom's "incredible power".

Originally posted by psycho gundam
it has nothing to do with superman, you could swap him out for cyclops and the big bang would still have occurred with the other factors in that process
Hahaha, like I said its amusing to see marvel internet warriors squirm. Carry on, I can use some good laughs.

you're not laughing, though, you're agitated and are in need of solace cause you rather defend nonsense

Originally posted by psycho gundam
you're not laughing, though, you're agitated and are in need of solace cause you rather defend nonsense Originally posted by abhilegend
Hahaha, like I said its amusing to see marvel internet warriors squirm. Carry on, I can use some good laughs.

Why you taking things so personal, man? There's no Marvel vs. DC war out there (they're both great companies that have given us great characters). Ppl just really don't see the feat the way you do. It's obvious we can't change your mind and matters of interpretation of comic plot (especially ambigious ones like this) tend to be mostly speculation anyway.

Let's just agree to disagree, shake hands and call it a day? :-)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=12704275

For you abhi...enjoy.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Why you taking things so personal, man? There's no Marvel vs. DC war out there (they're both great companies that have given us great characters). Ppl just really don't see the feat the way you do. It's obvious we can't change your mind and matters of interpretation of comic plot (especially ambigious ones like this) tend to be mostly speculation anyway.

Let's just agree to disagree, shake hands and call it a day? :-)
Its nothing personal man. Its just that I don't like hypocrites who try to downplay a character while readily accepting others. I know that I can't change someone's mind but facts are facts. In the end its all just for fun. Originally posted by carver9
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=12704275

For you abhi...enjoy.
Lulz.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Its nothing personal man. Its just that I don't like hypocrites who try to downplay a character while readily accepting others. I know that I can't change someone's mind but facts are facts. In the end its all just for fun.

Oh, alryt then. :-)

Still don't agree with your interpretation, but I'll just go ahead and respect it.

Peace!

Edit for spelling.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Right, that's why you need to be explained in detail a single feat. Pardon me if I'm not so fluent in one of the most convoluted arcs in comics history. Its not your fault though, I've seen many surfer fans and almost all of them are just like you.
Convoluted maybe but the art at the end of that arc pretty much explain in itself and its far more clearer than you equating energy percentage to the Supes feat, as there is an actual depiction via on panel art evidence of Surfer acquiring a change reaction/transfer to his persona after the silvery comet (Surfer - from the Unilord Universe) connected + top this off with a similar display of his powerset acquired during his upgrade in that arc presented in his latest issue. Really the scan i presented is easy enough to understand that it required no narration of the event..

It matters since you are not fully aware of what transpired in that story line and yet you lead us to believe that you have read and are quite knowledgeable of this arc..

So what the heck is the 4 remaining pages at the end of issue 121 and the 1'st 5 pages of 122 is all about? I mean there is a freakin reason why that was even printed out, not to mention that they choose it to happened in 616 universe and not in the Unilord Universe, marvel wanted it to clearly be connected and thefore cannonised..

Maybe u should read it because its quite clear that u haven't or just browse over it and pick what u wanted to see..

But this just it, this individual super beings is off not similar power level specially since some of them have the ability to amp from an outside and diff. energy source adding it to they're own, which was specifically shown it happening.. This is where your logic fails, your expectation of them being of similar powerlevels.

The character involved being debated have diff. strengths and while i do agree that Superman are shown to be above this character in overall stats however not in all categories; like say energy projection and absorbtion. Lets take Capt. Atom for example his been shown to absorb energy - ex. Nekron in Limbo - draining him dry instanteneously. Since this is what we are debating off in this feat; absorption and projection its clear that this beings are not evenly equal..

Point being assigning percentage of energy output from that feat is near impossible without proper gaining more detail information, compared to what was shown at the end of Surfer 121, which was quite simple straight forward as shown on panel; Unilord Surfer coming out of the rift in the form of silvery comet and then was drawn toward 616 surfer they connect and Surfer came then exhibited powers similar to that of Unilord albeit not to the higher degree in the latter issue..

Originally posted by abhilegend

To think that you call me slow, parallax was convinced that the power damage had was enough to create the big bang

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_ZHpt005_pg019.jpg

If only you could read the scans! Oh and there is no chain reaction there, waverider just funneled the accumulative energies into damage

Cap doesn't have unlimited power source outside quantum field and neither does darkstar. Spectre only came into play when damage had already reached critical mass. Nice try though.

I was right. You dont read but just browse and see what you like then forms an unbased opinion.

If you read the scan you provided its clear that Damage did not reach critical mass yet.. As evidence by Waverider's statement, " Prepare yourself Damage when you reach the proper level." Meaning he has not reach that level yet.

http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/9/92/Big_Bang_Zero_Hour_01.jpg

He only reach critical mass in the scan i provided above, when Spectre projected his own energy towards damage.

damage said,"Huh! the big guys pumping more energy into me, cant hold it in, cutting loose."

Is spectre = superman in power level? I think not.. Again your logic fails regarding equal level of power in that feat therefore your deduction is wrong..

Parallax didnt said he reach bigbang level, he said Waverider i know what ur plan. so i dont kow where you see him saying he reach bigbang level..

You do know he can call forth quantum field around him for additional energy source..


what matter is that they absorb energy to add to they're own and
since each one have far diff. absorption capabilities/capacity theyre even now far more unequal in power level therefore even energy distribution/projection is highly unlikely..

Your logic yet fails again..

I just remember a couple of Superman's.

Creating enough static electricity to patch a hole in reality

Creating enough static electricity to contain a mini black hole.

Originally posted by Ambient
Convoluted maybe but the art at the end of that arc pretty much explain in itself and its far more clearer than you equating energy percentage to the Supes feat, as there is an actual depiction via on panel art evidence of Surfer acquiring a change reaction/transfer to his persona after the silvery comet (Surfer - from the Unilord Universe) connected + top this off with a similar display of his powerset acquired during his upgrade in that arc presented in his latest issue. Really the scan i presented is easy enough to understand that it required no narration of the event..

No it isn't. What you assume is that unilord surfer passed rift, searched surfer and merged with him which have no other proofs than your assumptions. What we know is that unilord surfer tried to pass the rift, got melted and then returned to unilord's dimensions where he was seen at the last page of Silver surfer 120. Now the "silver comet" you are basing your whole theory upon might be another divergant reality version of unilord surfer who actually succeeded into crossing the rift and now who got merged with 616 surfer but that is a speculation too and that's why that is so ambiguous. While here we have four people firing their accumulative energies into a vessel who then gets overloaded by another character and created a big bang. What's so ambiguous about it?



I've read it and knows quite a bit about it, so no thanks for the reminder. Why don't you concentrate upon your reading comprehension than my comic book knowledge.



Who knows? Unless they clarify it and surfer actually shows power level anywhere remotely close to unilord level, its not an upgrade. Rest is just your wishful thinking.



Like I said you should concentrate your mind on your own business.



This shows that you don't know anything about the characters you are debating here. Captain atom shunts energy in quantum field when he absorbs a lot of energy which he can't use without entering in the quantum field, not amp himself. If he doesn't and absorbs it in himself then he gets overloaded and gets thrown in the time stream and it doesn't requires a lot of energy. Atom by amping can reach up to superman level energy projection otherwise heat vision has beat him before.

Only in the eye of a diehard surfer fan like you. Even the most knowledgeable surfer fans like darthgoober have said that its impossible to determine whether unilord saga is canon for 616 surfer or not and even if we assume that unilord surfer merged with 616 surfer, it doesn't automatically mekes his feats canon for 616 surfer like heroes reborn isn't canon for 616 hulk while heroes reborn hulk merged with 616 hulk.

No he didn't show any power similar to unilord surfer who was destroying star systems. Even in the mardukk saga he failed to stop mardukk from destroying earth. First you have to prove that the silver comet is unilord surfer who after that scan you presented returned to unilord universe. Ready, Set, Go.

Originally posted by Ambient
I was right. You dont read but just browse and see what you like then forms an unbased opinion.

Coming from you its just hilarious. Where did you read about zero hour, wiki?



You claerly can't read when you are meshing two sentences together. Waverider said in the third panel to damage to prepare himself because his physical form can't be held together for long and when he said that when damage reaches the proper level and damge replied that he understood what rider wanted and parallax seemed convinced that damage reached the proper level too. That's why "my way is right damage" and tried to kill him. You need to work on that reading skills of yours if you can't separate two sentences.





Wiki? You serious with this shit?



You again show your "impressive" reading skills. It wasn't damage reaching that level, it was him getting overloaded. Earlier he promised to waverider that he would release the energy in a controlled manner but spectre overloaded him and he blew up in a "out of control" manner. If only you can understand what you're typing then you would've understood that it wasn't the dialogue of a character getting to a certain power level, it was of getting overloaded otherwise it would've been like"Guys, I'm reaching the level waverider said to prepare me for and now I'm releasing it like a controlled detonation like I promised him". And you tried to paint me as slow!

Nope, but spectre wasn't in the play untill in the end.

My deduction is right, you just need to work on your reading skills.



He doesn't need to, him being convinced that damage was close to it is proof enough. "Sorry damage, MY way is right" tells that he thought damage was powerful enough to start big bang and tried to kill him.

http://www.wizardru.net/graphics/scans/zeroollie1.jpg

Why would hal try to kill damage when he wasn't anywhere near big bang level power? He would've just laughed and said they were trying something they could never achieve or something cliched like that knowing how hal speaks.



You do know that quantum field was destroyed alongside everything when parallax erased the creation, right? They were standing in parallax's universe.




If we go by your theory than superman comes second in the contribution because neither darkstar nor The ray have energy projection anywhere near superman even if we take their amps from absorbing a tiny portion of parallax's universe (ray only absorbed light). Even then, it would be better than anything Thor or surfer have done, don't you agree?



You don't have the one to begin with. Your entire debate centers around how to lowball superman's contribution in this feat.

Guys, keep it civil.

Superman heating up the entire Earth has to be up there imo.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No it isn't. What you assume is that unilord surfer passed rift, searched surfer and merged with him which have no other proofs than your assumptions. What we know is that unilord surfer tried to pass the rift, got melted and then returned to unilord's dimensions where he was seen at the last page of Silver surfer 120. Now the "silver comet" you are basing your whole theory upon might be another divergant reality version of unilord surfer who actually succeeded into crossing the rift and now who got merged with 616 surfer but that is a speculation too and that's why that is so ambiguous.
The length you'd go through to disavow a feat is hilarious to a point where im dumbfounded by your counter argument, common sense dictate i stop for fear of loosing more brain cells but alas i cant..

I'm not the one who's assuming, its you.. Your basing your assumption on a single panel of an arc that at that point wasn't finish telling its whole story.

(Now this is where my commonsense beg's to stop debating) Even going by your assumption/speculation, 616 Surfer would still retain the Blackbody upgrade from the merge since its still The U - Surfer that was derived from the Unilord Universe and that had gone through the blackbody upgrade.

Take that feat as it is, its quite simple to a point where the art basically tells the whole story.

Now that i agree is not ambiguous, you should take that feat as what it is - an impressive feat -. But when you assign energy output percentage to each character involved, that's when speculation comes into play since there is not enough detailed information for a calculated result. As oppose to the Surfer - Unilord feat where all the evidence you need is depicted in the art..

I didn't say he was, what i said was he exhibit similar power abilities shown during the Unilord arc on his latter comic issue. EX. Merging, Massive energy absorption compared to norm limit prior to the Unilord arc, Surviving being completely reduced into atoms, etc..

lol I don't what i was thinking when i drafted him twice in a tourney. Lets just say his absorb massive amount of energy without time sleeping meaning absorb it unto himself. lets just leave it at that.

Well that's Darthgoober's opinion not mine and speaking of heroes reborn that's totally diff.

I didn't say power level i said power/abilities - not level and i even give example to it..

no i followed that crossover as i have a box and collected some DC titles..

Dude! Reading comprehension please! AGGGHHHH!

http://s1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/?action=view&current=ZHpt005_pg019.jpg

1.) What does Waverider physical condition have to do regarding Damage achieving critical mass?

2.) When reaching proper level, prepare yourself. "When" Suggest it hasnt reach that level yet. How difficult is that to grasp?

3.) He understood the plan but nowhere does it state anywhere in the scan that Damage physical form is at critical mass..

http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/9/92/Big_Bang_Zero_Hour_01.jpg

Its in the evidence i provided above via scan is when its narrated and depicted in the art (Spectre's pouring more energy to damage) that damage reach critical mass then went bigbang.

Again twice you base your speculation on one single page neglecting the whole event as in the page that followed it.

Please point at me where parallax said to Damage that he reach critical mass, What i gathered from that statement was that he knew what the heroes plan was and apologized to Damage that he is going to put an end to his life. Like I said before it wasn't tell Spectre's involvement that he reach critical mass as is supported by the evidence i provided, which happened in the page after the one you showed..

Why are we even arguing about this when there's evidence on my side and what u have to show on yours is poor reading comprehension..

Yes he def. got overloaded but he reach critical mass prior to that but def. not from the scan you provided, all that really tell was that a warning from waverider to get ready when reach the proper level and Damage understanding what to do when at that level..

Now your basically just making things up..

We do know one thing for sure is that Spectre had contribution from remaking that bigbang which pretty much through off your even power level assumption therefore your point pretty much is a big FAIL.

You still have to account him in your equation since he was the big reason that cause Damage to go bigbang.

Again your making things up. your putting diff. meaning to the statement. Its plain and simple he knew about the plan and is willing to kill damage for it..

Because your right, its likely possible that given the chance he could build up to critical mass thats why he wasnt willing to take the chance but what matters is that there is no inclination in that scan that Damage reach critical mass..

Capt. Atom is quantum field, he can call for it to exist..

Dude your speculating, that's all the evnidence your contributing.. You have no proof, heck my counter argument is plain speculation. Without farther detail information you cant prove your point..

Originally posted by Ambient
The length you'd go through to disavow a feat is hilarious to a point where im dumbfounded by your counter argument, common sense dictate i stop for fear of loosing more brain cells but alas i cant..

I could say the same about you but meh. I stopped trusting surfer fans to show brain cells a long time ago.



Pot, kettle. I'm basing my feat on a simple three pages where everything is drawn to understand for you and me. You are basing your assumptions upon assumptions.



Obviously not, since surfer had never since showed any reference to either unilord universe or any sign of an upgrade and the instance you are basing your theory upon (mardukk saga) happened nearly a decade after in a different series by a different writer.



Not convincing enough. Try again.



I'm not assigning percentages, I'm just saying that they were given equal footing in that feat like all feats of similar nature and that's where your speculation comes into play about how they were not in equal footing which you haven't seen any proof thus far.



Different volume, different writer and with a character with such an open powerset like surfer unless its directly referenced like in annihilation its not feasible to say that it was an upgrade. If it was an upgrade then why did they chose to show it after nearly a decade? They had ample opportunities to show it in silver surfer v3 which ran to issue 147 where unilord saga ended in 120.



Yeah, you don't know much about him. Its been a defining characteristic trait to cap ever since he came into DC comics.



You are hardly the authority on this matter and how's it different?



Concession accepted.



Ok.



That's what I'm asking you for.



He indicated that when his physical form would be dispersed he had to be ready to fire that blast. Read it again.



Damage knows it better than you and me. He said that now I understand that you need a controlled detonation and he was ready to do that when parallax tried to kill him. How hard is it to understand for you?



Speculation again. Hal didn't wanted to kill anybody there. He was just trying to create a different universe for everyone. Why would he want to kill damage if he wasn't ready to detonate and create the big bang after he himself said so?



facepalm

If only you could read! The dialogue makes it completely clear that spectre was overloading him. "Can't hold it in and cutting loose" denote getting overloaded not getting to the limit. Seriously?



You can't even read dialogue properly and now you are lecturing me on using speculations? You at least have to read to speculate.

Its all in the art and dialogue like you said, read and understand yourself. Speculation again, he just beat THE SPECTRE. If damage wasn't near big bang, he wouldn't have tried to kill him. Plain and simple.

Like I said if only you could read!



Hahahahaha, this made my day. You are just reposting the scans I posted and twist them into your explanation. Nice try but you have to try harder.

End of discussion.

No backtracking now. You only get overloaded when you have already reached the critical point.



That's your job.



We do know that spectre only came into the equation once damage has already reached the critical mass and overloaded him like you just admitted yourself. Now its just your attempts to lowball this feat which is FAIL INCARNATE.



Nope, I already accounted him for the overloading of damage.



Like I said, now its just you being stubborn and trying to refuse logic. Just accept that you lost and move on, it doesn't hurt physically.



Oxymoron, either I'm right or not and like You said I was right. Damage reached critical mass like all signs indicates him to reach at that level.



This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard outside of quan or h1's mindless babblings. Nice going there kid.



You accept that all of your counter argument was just speculation. Discussion ends here. Superman contributed about evenly from a group of four people to create a big bang, glad that's settled here. Nice talking to ya. see ya.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Guys, keep it civil.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Guys, keep it civil.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Guys, keep it civil.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Guys, keep it civil.

I won't ask again.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I won't ask again.
Apologies there PR.. Well keep it civil..
Originally posted by abhilegend
Pot, kettle. I'm basing my feat on a simple three pages where everything is drawn to understand for you and me. You are basing your assumptions upon assumptions.
No! your basing your speculation on a belief that all characters involve on the feat are contributing equal energy source base on there individual equal power level. Your proof was because "When a group of characters do something in a comic with roughly same power level, its assumed that they contributed evenly." This is weak evidence, even you - yourself admitted in here of your assumption.. Another thing you need to add to whatever calculation your using is the latter involvement of Spectre to which im pretty sure this was an unexpected involvement of the rest of the characters in that feat. How where they to know how much energy to give if they did not know of Spectres involvement? That and the extra Parallax energies Capt. Atom, Ray and Darkstar absorbs blows your even power level argument.. Without knowing the specific of this characters detailed projected energy one can only speculate the percentage of each of their contribution. It just cant get more clearer than that.

There is a ref. to his upgrade during the Unilord arc and does it have to be stated in every showing of an increase of power... I mean it sure didn't show a ref. to every Supes power increase but you clearly accepted that..

Yes but it got to have bases for a character like surfer to have a particular power set to appear. He didn`t see a use of the power he acquired during the unilord arc tell he encountered Madrakk. Does Superman TVO or blits every challenge he encounters? Same thing.

You just gave supes 10% contribution - how is that not giving percentage.

lol where does it state on panel that all characters are in equal footing. Its your assumption that they are. Im not speculating in regard to the character individual power level is diff. because they are diff. thats a given information. So im not the one burden to show proof but you, so the question is where is your proof that each character projected equal power.

Right. so how is this tied in to knowing Damage reach critical mass. fact is that he couldn`t hold and funnel that much power the 4 characters were pouring in, thats basically all it tells..

Yes. Good so far he understood that they need a controlled detonation but where does it state that he was ready for detonation and please look at the scan you provided. Waverider was telling him the ``when`` part, this is the last part in the art you'll see him being charge with energy and because of the `when` at the same panel, its clear that he has not yet reach critical mass in this page.. It is at the next page that this happened.

You do know that everything i've wrote is based solely on my own opinion right. I am the authority on that..

Why? Because my assumption is that Damage is a threat to his plan but nowhere does it state anywhere in the scan or any denotion from the art that suggest he was at critical mass as i've stated in the above post with the evidence..

"IF" = Speculation..

You have no proof of this.. Like ive previously said so before we are both speculating..

But think about the feat by itself it exploded with the contribution of Spectre's energy which ive said in my previous post, that it debunks your even power contribution... We have no way of knowing how much energy he added, unless again we speculate..

Please explain how you came to the conclusion..

Just to remind you that Damage overloaded and went Bigbang with Spectre's contribution of energy that pretty much is clear.. He didn't go bigbang at critical mass.. Your equation must account with what was presented in the scan not what if cause that would equal -- speculation..

Summarised it all..

The only way you'd come about with your conclusion regarding the blackbody upgrade is if we only take this one single panel where Surfer was questioning, "what will happen to his Universe" and then it was narrated as your, "question will remain unanswered for now".. Then disregard the few pages that came after..

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/SS_v3_121_14a.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/SS_v3_121_17a.jpg
http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/?action=view&current=SS_v3_121_17b.jpg
http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/?action=view&current=SS_v3_122_03a.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/SS_v3_122_03b.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/Surfer/SS_v3_122_03b.jpg

Its quite clear at least to me how this arc concluded and that is the writer choose to have this story connected to 616 Surfer therefore making it canon. Now if you don't agree with it, its fine however you should ask similar stance of the Supes feat; detailed information, not assumption and speculation otherwise your double standard.

Originally posted by Ambient
Apologies there PR.. Well keep it civil..

Agreed.

That's not how these things work in the comics. Like I gave you the example before

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3200/ale6nz4.jpg
Do you think that either etrigan or orion are as powerful as Highfather or Darkseid? Or let me give you another example

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/GodBlastSavesMultiverse.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/GodBlastSavesMultiverse2.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/GodBlastSavesMultiverse3.jpg

In these type of feats if there is no mention that someone in the group contributed less than others, its automatically assumed that the contributed roughly evenly.

Nope, that's not what I said. My stance is that if there is not such large power differences like spectre and superman, generally in such feats characters contribute evenly. Irrelevant, they did the feat and its perfectly usable. I did no such calculations. I only said that they were given equal footings in that feat for a reason. They trusted waverider. No it doesn't. The writer intended to give them equal footings in that feat and without amping both ray and darkstar are nowhere near superman level of power. Only you would speculate to demean this feat when the writer's intent was perfectly clear to give superman equal footing in that feat.



No, there isn't. Outside of unilord saga till annihilation, there isn't a single reference to surfer's upgrade that I've read upon and I've read nearly every appearance of surfer. Superman has referenced his upgrades multiple times after they happened.

No, its totally on writer's whims.

Superman has used T-vo in a spectre comic FYI and blitzed people outside his own comic. Surfer didn't showed any increased abilities in the same volume and any showings outside that run for the case of his upgrade nearly ten years later is hilarious. You don't think that a claim that a character shows his upgrade nearly ten years later under a different writer hilarious? I mean c'mon.



I said "EVEN IF we assume that he just contributed 10% of the energy". Check the difference.

By the art and the dialogue. No, it doesn't. Irrelevant to the situation in the hand, the power output is so great that any power difference is negligible.

Yeah, the comic itself proves that by quoting waverider that they all have to fire their accumulative energies into him.



Waverider knew his limits and still got up for funneling a blast like big bang. What does that tell you about his physical dispersion? He didn't disperse because he couldn't funnel that much energy, he did because he knew that he would disperse after funneling that much energy and that this was his limit.

Again damage as instructed by waverider was ready to detonate and parallax confirmed it by trying to kill him.

Just speculation going on here as you yourself admitted. Waverider told him to be ready and damage was ready as per his words "Now I know what you want", parallax then tried to kill him to stop him from detonating. You're just shaking your head and saying "Nah-uh, that is wrong" without any proof whatsoever.



Yeah, I know and that's why I'm asking you the proof.



Yeah, you are assuming anything without taking characters in equation, that's why you are just speculating. Hal didn't wanted to kill anybody there. He even promised a different universe for damage.



Not like yours, I take character traits into consideration.



Yeah, I do. Read damage's words when spectre overloaded him and you would find the proof.



Damage had already achieved critical mass as per the plan of waverider and parallax confirmed it by trying to kill him and then as damage explained spectre overloaded him. Quite simple.



By damage's words.

No, spectre just overloaded him and that's pretty simple to understand if you just keep an open mind.

He needed to detonate it as a controlled detonation. Ask yourself this why did he go uncontrolled when spectre pumped more energy into him when earlier he promised to waverider that he would detonate it as controllable?



Like I said, you don't have much knowledge of these characters and you proved it earlier.



Yeah that page came after unilord surfer tried to pass the rift and returned to unilord universe again. Now we're arbitrarily assuming that he went into 616 universe when there is no mention of him going there?



Repeating these scans wouldn't prove yor case.

Not even all the surfer fanboys agree upon your conclusion and you expect me to agree upon this?

This is getting repetitive. If you're just going to post the same thing again and again, don't bother. This feat of superman is beyond surfer and learn to live with it.